The Engineers (Sub Creation)31,038 Views113 RepliesAdd A Reply
I know similar Topics have been Discussed before regarding out ENGINEERS. Subjects that have brought up certain Questions about the Differences.
People Felt Disappointed with the Planet 4 Engineers and we had had many a Speculation about them surely NOT being Engineers.
Ridley Scott however had Confirmed they are INDEED our Engineers and he even went FURTHER! He had claimed that those Engineers on Planet 4 were the Originals!
This surely Indicates that those Planet 4 Engineers or their Ancestors had Predated the Engineers we saw in Prometheus. When discussing where the Next Movie could go, we had Ridley Scott mention it would be about AI and he referenced that Batty and Racheal (from Bladerunner) were AI which means he views Replicants as AI.
In this Context maybe his Revelation is that the Engineers in Prometheus are basically similar to those Planet 4 Engineers as Replicants are to Humans in Bladerunner.
A Enhanced, Sub-Created Species that are Created to Perform Certain Tasks.
Prometheus was our First introduction to the Engineers, a Technologically Advanced Humanoid Race who are indicated as playing a LARGE ROLE in the Creation/Evolution of Mankind. Revealed to be Human looking to a Degree, but Physically Superior Looking with White Marbled Skin, they had a Enigma about them a almost Artificial Aesthetic (like a Ancient Marble Statue come to Life).
At the Time of Prometheus we did have our similar looking Elders who appeared to be Older more Frail Versions but as this SCENE is removed then we cant Assume this is what the Elders/Hierarchy would look like.
One Reason for this is that Ridley Scott did-not want to meet GOD in the First Movie, and that Dr Shaw and David would be off to the Planet of the Engineers to meet these beings who are NOT any God.. not in the Traditional Sense.
Alien Covenant takes us to what we can Assume is the Planet of the Engineers (Paradise) what we do see is a World where we meet Engineer looking inhabitants who do-not quite look the Same as our Prometheus Engineers, they appeared to be LESS Enigmatic MORE Human. (was this a Budget Restraint so less was spent on Cosmetic Effects).
The Revelation by Ridley Scott that these guys are the Originals does indicate there is a DIFFERENCE, and while our Planet 4 Engineers look more Human like a Hybrid we also see they have Females, and from Davids Notes/Drawings there was Infants... which means that these guys could Procreate.
The Earlier Concept/Idea that lead to Prometheus was the Engineers were a Ancient Race that had Genetically Engineered themselves to the point they LOST the ability to Procreate, which maybe could lead to Speculation that the Sacrificial Scene was a Project that could eventually allow them to Procreate Again.
Alien Covenant suggests this is NOT the case as far as our Planet 4 Engineers (could they have lost the ability a long time ago? and regained it?). Ridley Scott had said the Engineers are NOT a Race but a Civilization and he mentioned while there are Different Kinds of Human Races, why cant the same be for the Engineers.
We could Speculate the Engineers Seed many Worlds with Humanoid Life and then maybe add the desired Results to their Genepool where only the Creations deemed a Success are added? (thats just Speculation on my Part).
Back to the ORIGINALS comment....
This seems to imply this regarding the Prometheus and Alien Covenant Engineers, which i had speculated does this IMPLY the Enhanced (Übermensch) Engineers from Prometheus more like the Replicants in Bladerunner.
I would like to DRAW your attention to the one Image i posted with the Prometheus Sacrificial Engineer, we can see this ENGINEER lacks any NIPPLES.. could indicate they are not BORN in a Womb....
NOW cast your attention to the DRAWINGS by David and while NOT so HD resolution we can see that the Males and Females and Infants have NIPPLES it is likely these Planet 4 Engineers can Procreate by Natural Means.
This could indeed imply that our Prometheus Engineers are more in common with the Replicants and David (only Organic AI)
If this is the CASE, then it adds some Depth to the WHOLE PLOT and how to look at the Prometheus Mythos and other Mythos and indeed the FALLEN ANGELS remark that Ridley Scott seemed to Label those Prometheus Engineers with.
We could now be ASKING.... so WHICH of these Engineers Created us? and WHY?
Maybe there is YET a even Bigger Curveball to be Thrown!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think that while the PLOT in Parts had Changed there seemed to be a CORE BACKGROUND that the Reasons the Engineers had gone through the Sacrificial Scene and Seeding of Worlds seems to be of some BENEFIT to their kind and IT as well as their Interactions with their Creations seemed to come from a Benevolent Place.
I think we can be assured there are a NUMBER of Layers of Creation
So its always Interesting to Wonder what Ridley Scott had implied by NOT wanting to MEET GOD in the First Movie, and this goes in HAND with Dr Shaw wanting to KNOW as to WHO had Created them. The Elders being the Hierarchy at the TIME the Movie was Shot... Their Removal was in Part as RS felt the Scene gave away too much, it also seemed they was NOT really Pleased on HOW they came across.
They looked like more OLD FRAIL versions of our other Prometheus Engineers and so they NEVER really had that Godlike look, so we could Speculate if RS had Plans to Change or Replace them with something more AWE inspiring. But in REALITY we saw them Replaced with something that was LESS SUPERIOR than the Sacrificial/LV-223 Engineers. But i guess you could look at it as Mankind are the Creators of the more Superior Replicants and Synthetics, so i am Drawn to that being the Conclusion.
I think its Interesting to look at WHY would you Create Something and there are Many Reasons for this, it does not have to be JUST BECAUSE. Various Mythos and Religions and Cultures can give us Numerous Reasons for why the GODS/GOD would Create us. We had David say to Holloway how would HE feel if his Creators said the same to him (we Created you because we could). And i dont think we would have been SHOWN that it was a Case of the Engineers being BORED and just going to TEST and SHOW OFF that they can Create.
With Weyland we could see that the Creation of David was the Pinnacle of his Genius and to HIGHLIGHT to HOW GREAT a Scientist that Weyland was. We do see Weyland say that David is the Closest thing to a Son and so there was some kind of NEED for Companionship but more so David was a Servant of his Father.
We also can look Beyond those and then Look at the Practical Reasons for Creating a David or a Replicant and these would be to PERFORM TASKS that these Creating Beings could do more EFFICIENT, Tasks that could also be Difficult or Dangerous for Humans and so thats another GOOD Reason to Sub-Create. I also Guess that Frustration that you CANT Create could be a Good Reason to WANT to Create Also.
So it can be Quite Open for the Reasons for Creation... i think with Prometheus and Dr Shaw then this is ONE of the Main Questions she would want Answered. This is something that could have Answered in a Number of Ways or the Engineers could REFUSE to even give her any Reason. WHY if they had it where Paradise was FAR FAR away then the Engineers she would MEET could have NO IDEA that Mankind was even Created!
This is in PART why they had a Tricky Plot to Continue.... if they are OFF to the Engineers World where there are Numerous Inhabitants and they are Technologically Advanced and they HATE HUMANS then the OUTLOOK for Dr Shaw arriving to then GET ANSWERS could be something that does-not go down as well and ENDS up being as QUICK a Meeting as Peter Weylands meeting with his Maker and his DEMANDS.
But they JUST needed a Writer who could THINK outside the BOX or take into Account the WHOLE PLOT.... it seemed that the Engineers had NOT wanted to have us Destroyed from the GET GO... the Creation of Mankind and Thousands of Years they Visited us seems to IMPLY some Considerable Effort and Time.
Ridley Scott has indicated that the Engineers had Decided to Destroy us because we had OFFENDED them, we had NOT turned out in the WAY they wanted in regards to HOW we was Expected to BEHAVE, he also said the Engineers saw us as a Threat.
But you can liken that to David, you can see with Alien Covenant that his Behavior is NOT what you would want your Servant Robots to be behaving like, he has become a THREAT and Danger. If others of his KIND had Started to Behave in the same WAY then Humanity would have to Conclude we have to DESTROY these A.I before we get a TERMINATOR on our Hands.
When we look at Mankind and the WHOLE Process of our Creation would the Engineers had been so Niave to PUT ALL THEIR EGGS IN ONE BASKET?
If the Engineers had Seeded/Taken other Humans to other WORLDS then for Earth its ONLY because we Started to Disobey them, become more Sentient, as RS said they sent down a Emissary to TRY and Change our Ways and its the way we Reacted to that which was the FINAL STRAW.
NOW.... if they had other Worlds with Humans who are Behaving in ways that Please the Engineers, then THIS is a Good Reason for WHY they was to go to such Extreme Lengths on Earth.... they have other Worlds with Humanoid Creations and so the LOSS of ONE is not a Big Issue... After the FAILURE of the Mission, its LIKELY they had Abandoned the Earth..... they saw our PATH as ONE where would eventually DESTROY ourselves and i think in their Naivety they thought without the Engineers then Mankind would NEVER Advance and more likely we would go backwards to Barbaric Cave Men!
If they went for something like THIS then Dr Shaw could have arrived at a World thats FAR FAR FAR away, and maybe could have been looked at with Intrigue by the Engineers and they may even Determine she is a GOOD SOUL and she could be Welcomed to Paradise...
But the Engineers would KNOW that Mankind on Earth has Advanced to be able to TRAVEL the Stars, and Reach the Engineers Anthrax Island if you would and USE their Technology (via David) and so while they may SPARE our Dr Shaw, they would LIKELY want to GO and DESTROY the Earth.
The Question then would be HOW would Dr Shaw feel about this, Especially if she found out the Engineers had MANY Worlds with Humans and Humanoids on, but NOW they are going to DESTROY the Earth and Pondering whether they should DO the SAME with the other WORLDS.
I would ASSUME that Dr Shaw would WANT to Prevent them.... so YES they had NOT Written themselves into a Corner, it just Needed some Thought.... but with FOX seeing the reaction to Alien V they thought the Fans wanted to CHANGE the Story to be about the MONSTER and its Origins and so the Potential of a Prometheus 2 was LOST.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
' he also said the Engineers saw us as a Threat. '
Maybe the Engineers are under attack from many of the their creations?
Or maybe it's not about destroying their newborn children...But testing them? Can you defend yourselves ( against a single juggernaut )? Parenting on a large scale!
The point about "because you could" is not because they were bored and had nothing better to do its that if you have the capacity for creation you will.
That changes the fundamental relationship between a creator and created and is entirely different to a Mysterious God Creator and the created. Its not a mystery its nuts and bolts and thats why Weyland/David is vital to the story we see a creation hanging out with its creator and if David doesn't do as he is told its curtains (the weyland/david script dialogue). That is not about a creation which offers free will to its creations, it puts the created under an obligation. Many humans have children and unconsciously do the same thing the children are there to gratify their parents needs.
The audacity of Prometheus is mankind was made by dark angels and by extension is a small tributary of creation.
It's fairly clear that Damon and Ridley knew the reason for mankind's proposed annihilation was connected to Christ.
As a wonderful Catholic Theologian wrote that means that the second part of the story would have explained that the annihilation of the Moon Engineers was over an argument between the Universal Engineers (The Waterfall)and Gnostic Engineers. (The Moon) over their view of "Christ".
The Universal Engineers allow the Gnostic's to set up anthrax island but when they created and then wished to destroy they drew a line in the sand.
In Ridleys Hennessy advert you can see that being played out.
Here is more of the surmise.
So how has that original premise been modified in the final movie? (Christ was an Alien) Simple. These very religious Engineers, who are highly sympathetic to Jesus and his message, are completely appalled at the human race’s treatment of him. That’s all; Jesus doesn’t have to be an alien. Who Jesus is can be left to the viewer to decide. (For example, was he a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord of the Universe?)
That latter point is very important in terms of potential story and its impact on Elizabeth. In my story she is essentially following Christ's footsteps does not know it and the further on she goes the less certain she is of what she believes she is following.
However if the Universal Engineers are responsive to "Christ" "Father why have you forsaken me." Everything that has happened and not happened on the Moon and to the Derelict makes sense. But I emphasise the point that does not make Christ the christ of the bible anymore than it makes Elizabeth the Elizabeth of the bible even though both had miraculous births.
The beauty of having a near miss with religious beliefs is you can see how easy it is for us to get the wrong end of the stick which is so beautifully exemplified by Weyland and Elizabeth.
The reality of this story is there is no christ no religion there are just Engineered outcomes and like any Engineered solution some part of it might not work once its built.
What is the practical application of Gifts that donate and seed everything they are and add something to the building blocks of creation.
What is the practical application of building an ageless brilliant child that is created to serve. David and the guy who offers what David thought was a benediction might well have a lot in common.
"The point about "because you could" is not because they were bored and had nothing better to do its that if you have the capacity for creation you will"
Exactly thats a Good Point, i was also suggesting when i said "Bored" it was in Context that its NOT just a case they was Bored, i think its OPEN for Debate and the Reason could Change depending on the Layer of the Creation Cake.
With Weyland i think in Part it was to Push the Boundaries to Show as to HOW much of a Great Inventor/Innovator he was. It was to give him a bit of a EGO boost as in Creating David it showcases as to HOW GREAT our Mr Weyland was, but then YES we saw that David was merely a Butler for Mr Weyland.
Regarding Religion and Mythos i got the Impression it was to Encompass all of these as merely our Interpretations of Interactions with the Engineers, and i think this is WHY we saw RS call Christ a Emissary and so i think in Context to the Franchise then its likely that there were more of these Emissaries who had came throughout History and to Different Parts of the Earth.
If you look at it from the Engineers POV and say they have a Culture thats like that of Monks or the Amish then they would see some Societies as Sinful with many Vices, while they would see some Cultures as Living in Ways that would appease the Engineers.
I think a LOT of Problems come from the Writers/Producers and Directors seeming to Change their Minds or NOT be on the same Page.
A Big Problem i have is about the BIO-WEAPON.. it makes Little Sense.
Not if the Engineers are Creators but sometimes they have to RESET a World to Rebuild again. We got the Impression the Sacrificial Scene was of Great Importance and a Benevolent Event, it seems the Engineers would come and Visit us over and over, where they Evolve us both Genetically and Technologically (inc Knowledge/Tools). It seems their Earliest interactions are over 35'000 Years ago.
IF say LV-223 was a Purpose Build Facility for the Creation of a Bio-Weapon to use on Mankind or other Creations, then we have to ASK as to WHY had that Maintained Control for 33'000+ Years before LOSING Control over 2000 Years ago?
WHY do they Leave Star Maps to such a Place? We know it was NOT a Invitation, so the Engineers were NOT expecting us to ever go to this Place. If they never Expected/Wanted us to go to this Place then it surely cant be a TRAP either.
Was it a WARNING?
To me i then have to Consider was this Place something ELSE before it was then TURNED into a Place to Produce Horrors and was those who had USED this Place and the Gift/Goo to Produce something Unholy the ones we should be looking at FALLEN.
The Plot can be OPEN to Interpretation and Explored in a Number of Ways. It depends on WHAT we use for Source of Information and Clues, if we look at Spaights Pitch, and Prometheus as FAR as the Full Sacrificial Scene we have YET to see, then it seems that Humanity/Mankind was Very Much a desired and Intended Outcome.... its a Question in this Context if our Creation was something a Group of Engineers had DONE where they was NOT Permitted to do so by their Hierarchy or Creators.
We see that David has used the GIFT to Create Horrors, but if he then goes to use the GIFT to Genetically Alter/Evolve those Human Embryos into a NEW kind of Mankind then he would ESSENTIALLY be using the Creation Tool without the Permission of the Engineers Hierarchy also.
It could be the Sacrificial Scene was NEVER to Create Humanoids, but that a Group of Engineers (or Sub-Created Group) had Decided to use the TOOL to Create Life/Evolve it in their Image... without the Consent of their Hierarchy or Creators.
I think a way to look at it could be that we have to see it from the Engineers POV and that its about Creation more than to Create a Pesticide and that we are NOT at all Unique we are a Footnote and their are Many More Worlds where the Engineers have Created/Evolved and Nurtured Civilizations.
To come back to the Weapon.... to Reclaim Worlds to Reset, then to me DROPPING DOWN say Thousands of Urns with Sacrificial Goo is the PERFECT RESET, the Goo that Creates Deacons, Hammerpedes, Neomorphs is NOT so Perfect.... this makes more Sense if at a POINT the Engineers (or some) wanted to EVOLVE worlds to have this DNA instead of their own Humanoid DNA.
The only other Reasons is for Sinister Intentions to Deliberately cause Terror and Suffering. To have such a Hatred for your Creations.... and so maybe the Engineers on LV-223 and their Change of Heart is similar to David and HOW he has viewed Mankind/Engineers after Years of being Mistreated, and seeing his Creators and their Creators are Unworthy Creations.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Your point about the sacrificial scene is a good one.
One of the modules inside the do***entary (FG) indicates that the original intention was that the craft hanging over the cliff was a Juggernaut. If it had been then the idea that it was an Earth seeding by the dark angels has legs.
However Ridley wanted to place the scene billions of years ago and introduced the beautiful pebble ship too separate the Eight from the Moon E's. To be honest I only discovered that after I had written the second draft and probably about the 2nd edition of my work so 2019. But I got lucky because it underwrites my take on it.
Ridley in the do***entary is much closer to my vision of how to interpret the story.
1) "So if they made us who made them, God made them."
2) The cup is described as the Genesis Cup.
3) The instillation is described as anthrax island.
Now when you get much further down the line and start listening to the editors commentary Pietro Scalia, without being disrespectful, he clearly did not understand the vision and his remarks about why they left Paradise out of the final cut are way off. He said it was confusing and was not thought through and might refer to Earth. Thats nonsense if you listen to Davids cut dialogue the Engineers Home Planet is an echo of all of our belief systems and (Here I am talking about my work) our belief systems are all fragments of the truth because our beginnings obscured the truth. The one personality who pierced those deceits and saw the truth was the guy from Nazareth. Elizabeth following in those foot steps is by contrast entirely on the wrong track.
The idea of taking Elizabeth where she wants to go and find its all wrong has great story telling potential the only problem there are not 13 people with her who all get killed by the creature. As you often said you cannot make a movie for the franchise where their are two leads and a huge amount of ambiguity when you arrive there.
I think part of how Damon intended to deal with that is by the two of them experiencing the Tibetan Bardo which he used in Lost. Once again I am pleased to say I had that in mind from the very beginning and it enables you to pick up some of the narrative threads and characters from the first part.
"indicates that the original intention was that the craft hanging over the cliff was a Juggernaut"
It Certainly was ;) which is WHY i think the Juggernaught made more sense as a Seeding Ship, a more Efficient Method
*Drop off a Engineer who is to Donate his DNA to Create Life by a Sacrifice.
(Potential of Engineer changing his Mind, and have to Actually go and LAND on the Surface).
*Maybe more than ONE of the Engineers are Sacrificed on the Ship or on some Place (LV-223) and their DNA is Collected in the Urns to be Dropped on a World.
(Chosen Engineers have NO WAY to back out, the SHIP does not have to Land and can EVOLVE/SEED from the HEAVENS, More DNA Diversity).
When looking at the Engineers being mainly about Creation and looking at how Spaights Scarabs and Goo work, we can ASSUME that Engineer DNA Carrying Goo would essentially act as a FACTORY RESET if it was Bombarded down on a World.
If we consider that, then the Plaza in Alien Covenant, the Statues (Especially the ONES that Surround the Hanger that are Holding what looks like the Sacrificial Cups) then it makes more SENSE.... and would Explain as to WHY those Engineers were NOT afraid and Welcoming of the Ship, IF say to be Chosen as a Sacrifice is a Great Honor, or maybe those Engineers are-not FULLY aware of what becomes of them UNTIL they are TAKEN AWAY.
To me this makes SENSE, but that does-not mean this is WHAT is actually going on as the Writers etc and Ridley Scott may NOT be giving much thought to WHAT makes Sense.
IF what makes Sense to me is something to look at, THEN it makes the LV-223 Experiments and Intent to USE it on Earth as some Engineers deciding to PERVERT the USE of the Creation Tool and to CORRUPT/PERVERT the Creation Process which would FIT more with the FALLEN Aspect.
So those Guys on LV-223 had taken the SACRED GIFT of Creation, and decided to USE the DNA of something Horrific rather than to Create in their Own Image. Their Creations would be Unholy, would Create Twisted Serpents of the Engineers.
Where as PURELY as a Weapon/Reset Switch then the Sacrificial Goo would (ASSUME) infect and Break Down all LIFE and then Create Building Blocks for NEW Life that has the Same DNA. This is MORE CLEAR with Spaights Drafts of the Sacrificial Scene.
When we get to the OUTPOST and encounter the Scarabs again it was via them being STORED in a URN where the Outcome on a Human (Fifield) was to MUTATE him into something that had Xenomorph DNA/Traits and so i Speculate that those Scarabs in those URNS had OBTAINED the DNA from being USED on some Organism that Predates the Xenomorph.
So IF the Engineers had decided they wanted to Eradicate us with this Xeno-DNA strain of Black Goo, this would Create Life that is TOTALLY against what the Engineers had done AEONS ago.
*They became Obsessed and Impressed with a Organism that Predates the Xenomorph/Deacon and tried to Create a NEW Creation and saw its DNA as being more Perfect than the Engineers and saw THIS as the NEXT STEP in Evolution.
*They had become so BITTER and HATEFUL that to Merely Smite us was NOT enough and they wanted to INFLICT more Horror and Suffering and saw these Horrors on LV-223 as a more Severe Punishment.
If those Engineers on LV-223 are Sub-created to Serve, then maybe they could have STARTED to behave and show Contempt for their Creators and their New Favored Creations (Mankind) then maybe they could have the same THINKING as what had Drawn David to Pervert Creation with a Horror to UNLEASH and Destroy all Humanoids?
Alternatively we could be LEFT with some Engineers thinking that they Reached the Peak of Evolution with the Genome of the Engineers and they looked to Introduce another Organisms DNA into the MIX to Evolve themselves to something ELSE and they saw or maybe they wanted to TEST this on Earth.
The Problem with these Explanations is that RS had indicated that the Reasons we was to be Destroyed was because of HOW we had been Behaving Against the WILL/WAYS of the Engineers. In which case i then DROPPING down Sacrificial Goo would make more Sense to RESET the World.
So those Engineers must have become VERY BITTER to the Point that to KILL US and RESTART the Creation Process from Scratch was NOT enough, and they wanted us to SUFFER. And so IF this made them to be like Fallen Angels then this maybe Implies that trying to PERVERT/CHANGE the Creation Process by introducing the UNHOLY HORROR that Predated the Xenomorph could be seen as a FALLEN ACT (something that was NEVER intended in their Culture/Religion but something that became a New Perverted Ritual).
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"Ridley in the do***entary is much closer to my vision of how to interpret the story"
Indeed those 3 Points are Spot On.
" Thats nonsense if you listen to Davids cut dialogue the Engineers Home Planet is an echo of all of our belief systems"
Absolutely ;) before we had Alien Covenant, way back in 2013 i was looking at Paradise in Context of the BIBLE and to then look at it NOT being Heaven. But the PLACE where Creation had came from (GARDEN OF EDEN).
A Walled City that is Over-watched by the Cherubim Angels, the Place that was the Cradle of Civilization (First Ancestors) and when i look at Planet 4 and that SINGLE CITY then i think that FITS with the Paradise that contained the Garden of Eden. Also Paradise is where ONLY the Worthy can go, and so maybe those Humanoids on Planet 4 are deemed Worthy, and Pure and as RS said they are NOT a Race but a Civilization then maybe the Engineers would Visit the Worlds they Seed and take some Humans (or Children) to Paradise where they are Incorporated both Ritually/Culture wise but Genetically.
Maybe in Context to the Franchise then Christ was ONE of these Children who then was Sent Down to TRY and Correct our Ways? The Engineers maybe had SENT other Emissaries to other Places who had Behaved and Pleased their Creators and had NOT gone to Crucify their Emissary (this could Explain the Latter Star Maps after the Death of Christ).
"great story telling potential the only problem there are not 13 people with her who all get killed by the creature"
This was ALWAYS a Sticking Point with a Sequel, you had just the ONE Human Character which annoyed some Fans, you had the Synthetic David who was the Strongest Character and its HOW can you have a Movie about THEM and THEN they Meet their Makers who HATE US?
If the Engineers have Seeded many Worlds and they see the Humanoid DNA as what they are aiming for. It seems UNLIKELY they would ONLY have Created Us on Earth... even so you would Expect them to come over time and TAKE some Humans to Paradise or to other Worlds to Colonize them.
Its LIKELY that NOT all of the Worlds the Engineers had Invested in Creation had UPSET them like we had on Earth (some Parts/Cultures) and so THIS is a Avenue to had Introduced other Humans.
They NEVER had to go to Paradise, we could have had David detect a closer Engineer World and go there and see Humans that are Living in Harmony with a Smaller Number of Engineers watching over them.
The Discovery of Worlds with Humans would give a Good Arc to the Character of Dr Shaw and HOW she would respond. It would raise a Interesting Dynamic for those Humans and Engineers seeing a Returning Engineer Ship but out STEPS not the Engineers but Humans. Imagine the Reaction to the other Humans and especially if they are TAUGHT that they are Unique in the Galaxy and Alone.
Imagine the Intrigue of the Engineers but Concerns on HOW the arrival of Dr Shaw would effect the Human Civilization on this WORLD the Engineers would have some Explaining to do.
Does David become Jealous at HOW these Humans and Engineers interact and Welcome Dr Shaw and she has more Interest in them and so DAVID then FEELS he is a Outcast!
Do the Engineers then Realize who David is and are Concerned and Intend to Dispose of HIM how would David React? Would he MAKE UP something to get Dr Shaw on his Side?
Would those Engineers be Concerned that other Humans are able to Travel the Stars and USE their Ships? So what if they Determine they NEED to Contact the Hierarchy on other Worlds to then DISPOSE of Humanity on Earth!
David could Convince Dr Shaw or maybe she could come to David for HELP in having to STOP these Engineers. He has a Cargo of HELL on the Ship and WHAT if those Engineers only think the Ship has Engineer/Humanoid DNA and are NOT aware of the HORRORS?
But they soon SHALL!
So YES a bit more Thought and we NEVER had to go for a Alien Covenant, you could have had Horrors that are related to the Xenomorph Unleashed. And a 3rd Movie you could have Engineers Arrive who we then could get more Information about the Connection to the Xenomorph from.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The proposition was that the story was to take us on to our creators to find Elizabeths answers. To turn the story into a series of Babouska Dolls and devalue the Engineers (which happened in Covenant) was never the answer.
Something happened between the time of the Seeding Billions of years ago and our creators ending up on the Moon. Find the answers to that and our creation can be given context.
Thats not to deny that such a story, which contextualises the installation and the derelict will hold little interest for the core fans of the A L I E N franchise.
"Babouska Dolls" is something interesting to bring up as INDEED a Part of doing the Prequels was to Discover maybe WHO that was in the Pilot Chair on LV-426, well Certainly as FAR as the Space Jockey Species. And so YES what we have ENDED UP with is kind of a Babouska Doll
The Idea was for a 27ft Space Jockey but in Reality we got a 21-22ft which then in the Closer Shots (used Adult Actors) then the Space Jockey had become its PROP SIZE and so we was looking at a 13-15ft being.
Which the Intention with the Prequels was to give us 12-15ft Engineers, but when it came down to Production they had aimed for 10ft but the ONLY kind of Illusion Created was up to 8ft. I had Joked before that by the time we get to the CONCLUSION maybe they could reveal its a BEING that is Played by Warwick Davis as the Space Jockey the Final Babouska Doll ;)
I think that YES they had intended Originally to give us Humanoids who had that Certain Glossy Look to them, like they was made of Marble so they would look like a Roman/Greek Marble Statue this kind of Skin Tone/Texture does have that Synthetic look about it and so if they had decided to make our Prometheus Engineers something of a Sub-Creation or a Engineered/Evolved Variant of themselves then i think this makes sense when we consider other Elements of the Plot.
But this does make our Engineers who could be 6-8ft Tall (likely have some Diversity as they are now more Human looking), become LESS GODLIKE and Less like what Ancient Cultures of Gods had Depicted... However most cases the Gods had a Very Human Appearance it was their Clothing at times, Skin Color in some Cultures but their SIZE that made them STAND APART from a Human. And so beings of 10-12ft does FIT more with Ancient Mythology etc.
However it could be Explored that the Sub-Created/Engineered... Super Engineers if you would could have GONE AROUND to Worlds and PRETENDED to be their GODS when this was NOT their DUTY. It could be like say if the Colony on Origae-6 is SET-UP and then David goes and KILLS the Adults... and then Raises the Children/Embryos and Declares to THEM that he is their GOD and Creator.... when he is NOT.
There are Numerous ways that they could SHOW the Connection to our Creation and the Connection/Differences between our Planet 4 Engineers and LV-223 Guys.
Things are always SUBJECT to Change.... and while they may want to have us see those Planet 4 Engineers as the Originals and Very Much Mortals (RS said they Live for about 200 Years i think). They could CHANGE it back to have our Engineers from Prometheus being the GODS and those on Planet 4 are merely the Engineers attempts and a Upgraded Human.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think that YES the Set-up would seem that we would go where David and Dr Shaw would be HEADING and that there are some BURNING QUESTIONS that we would have Expected some Answers too... and you would think that Dr Shaw would have had to be the ANCHOR point and our Proxy to get those Answers, rather than to just END-UP on a Slab of Stone.
The Engineers Technology is Many Millions of Years Old, and YES depending on WHERE the Sacrificial Scene had taken Place and HOW you Frame it, then you have a Time-Line of just HOW LONG ago this was. But as RS had said this does-not have to be Earth, and so it could also be ANY TIME.. its to just SHOW how the Engineers Seed Worlds.
So they could Answer it as the Sacrificial Glossy Engineer was taking the GOO on a World that his KIND had wished to Corrupt/Desecrate and so they could have it that this WORLD would soon be Rampant with Neomorphs and the like!
However YES at the Shooting of the Movie then the IDEA was this was on Earth, and its the Beginning Point of either... Building Blocks of LIFE or more likely the Catalyst that allowed for Multi-Cell and Complex Life to Form.
So the Engineers would come back OVER and OVER and Evolving Life at Intervals for Millions of Years... UNTIL there was a Point when Humanoid Life had then WALKED on the Earth and then the Engineers appear to be making more Regular Visits to Teach us Various things. To Influence our Culture and Way of Life..... but there came a POINT when we had Influenced ourselves to ACT in ways that the Engineers were NOT pleased with.
It would seem after they had became Concerned with us this is WHEN they began those Experiments on LV-223, the Question would be was LV-223 a Outpost for over 35'000 Years? And IF-SO was it Conducting Experiments trying to Create Horrors like we saw in Prometheus and the Fresco/Mural.
so YES we have to ask about WHAT KIND of Creation/Agenda did they have Millions of Years ago? They seemed to be Interested in Creations in their OWN IMAGE and had Invested Time and Effort in coming to VISIT us for Tens of Thousands of Years.
To then become Obsessed/Interested in the HORRORS of LV-223 some Thousands of Years ago and so we have to ASK... had they been into that kind of Horrors for longer than 2000-3000 Years? And so YES we have to WONDER as to WHEN they became Obsessed with that.
Because as a TOOL to RESET a World... then Dropping Down Urns of Sacrificial Goo would make more SENSE... but they was NOT CONTENT with that... so we have to look at WHAT was they thinking... and WAS what was going on LV-223 something the Hierarchy or Creators of those Engineers even AWARE of?
I do think that it would have been BETTER that we saw Dr Shaw get to the BOTTOM of some of those Questions... but ALAS.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
There is something else which I am not sure Ridley has the skill to pursue. Good episodic story telling shows the audience the characters arc and how they react to to it. It is engaging and gets you invested in character.
When Elizabeth left in the Engineer Craft she was profoundly changed by her experiences and her list of questions were growing. Equally once David had been healed by Elizabeth and been shown such kindness that would have affected him. Both would have been profoundly changed.
So whilst it was a shame not to go where Ridley and Damon had riffed it was a shame that a really fascinating set of character arcs were snuffed out.
Certainly she was a Very Naive Character, but you could tell that her Experience with the Trilobite and Loss of Charlie had a Effect on her.... she has NOTHING, she can not Bare Children (not in the Traditional Sense) it seems she has NOTHING to go back Home too and so for her its the ANSWERS that she wants.... and i think that Depending on those Answers could BREAK her and so her ARC could be Interesting... all she has is her FAITH and a QUEST for Answers. So depending on her Answers or lack of Any then that could give her a GOOD STORY ARC.
With David in Prometheus he was a Interesting Character he is FREE from being the Servant of Peter Weyland, he is FREE from being Mistreated and so you do get the Impression that maybe IF he was Treated Well by People then he would NOT be a EVIL Character.
His Line to Daniels is Interesting "if we are KIND it will be a KIND world"
And so i think you could have had a Interesting Dynamic with Dr Shaw, he could have GROWN very FOND and Protective of her, while she could become WRECKLAS in her Persuit of her Answers even if this PUTS her in Danger.
Would David allow her to be PLACED in any Danger?
Maybe he would FALL for her? But how would such EMOTIONS be Handled by HIM and WHAT IF that LOVE is never Reciprocated?
If she gains Attention from the BEINGS that they could MEET and then it seems to David that Dr Shaw has more Interest in them and NOT HIM and these beings have NO interest in David then could he become Jealous?
So there are Numerous ways they could have Evolved the Arc of their Stories and Dynamic, that SADLY we never saw in Alien Covenant but had Glimpses with The Crossing Prologue.
Sadly its a Case of would the CORE of the Franchise Fanbase want and watch a Movie that Revolves around those TWO? Can you have a Movie where HALF of it is Dedicated to just TWO CHARACTERS?
You could but would that APPEAL to the Broad Fanbase and i think that FOX had felt the Fanbase wanted the Origins of the Xenomorph and to see our MONSTER back on the Screen and eventually take us to the Derelict on LV-426
There is a STORY there from when Dr Shaw had recovered Davids Body/Head to the Point when Dr Shaw ended up on that Slab of Rock. While it may not be Quite what could have been DONE with the Story.. i feel there is a STORY there that would WARRANT a Novel.
It appeared there was some Shared Fondness between Dr Shaw and David but SOMETHING had Happened... that Ultimately lead to her as becoming a CADAVER we may get some Insight from Alien Covenant and Especially Davids NOTES...
To have him merely PLAYING HER all along and wanting to just KILL the Engineers and USE her for his Experiments i think is a COP OUT... i think there could be more to it than that.... i think seeing Dr Shaw make a Discovery and NOT want to be Part of a OFFER that David has for her.... leads to the FALL of their Relationship and the Seeds to he becoming his TEST Subject.
But YES it could have gone so much Differently had they Continued with what seemed the Plan in 2012-2013.
As for David.... i think that as of NOW (Alien Covenant) then it will be back to SUB-CREATION.... i suspect he would be going to Create/Evolve his own Children which is WHERE those Embryo's will come into PLAY as RS had said its NOT about the Xenomorph, but WHAT KIND of WORLD would David Create and about A.I (where he also referred to Replicants as A.I and so A.I can be Organic).
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
There are things that are more interesting than if David has a soul. It might be interesting in itself but I'm not watching the Alien-movies for that.
Give me more about the Engineers, this is a way to expand the franchise with something that's interesting and alien. David is too close to humans and I'm not interested in that (humans versus androids). Keep the android as a side-thing but not a central part. The Engineers is a book, David is or should be a foot-note. Introduces other life-forms, and so on.
“I think the Engineers in Prometheus as a Clone/Genetically Engineered Sub-Creation of the Planet 4 Engineers does FIT with the Themes/Plot.”
I hear what you're saying but I prefer a good story over themes. The original Engineers should have looked more alien if those on Planet 4 were the originals, they were just disappointing and the themes don't matter if the story is disappointing. To paraphrase one of those on the Xenomorphing podcast when they had the episode on Alien Covenant “none of them look like Engineers they look like ****”. Maybe I wouldn't have put it like that but I agree. Alien Covenant is a mixed bag, that's also the opinion of many on the Xenomorphing podcast.
To link human history to the Engineers could be interesting but it still doesn't make it alright to make the Engineers on Planet 4 look like us. Who ever decided to make them look like they do should have made them more Alien. I don't want to single out any particular person but who ever decided that made the wrong decision. You can have a link between humans and the Engineers and still make those on Planet 4 more interesting and more alien because there would be a link anyways which could be explained by some smart writing and by having scenes that make sense. When I look at deleted scenes there were those that should have been kept in (again), the same as in Prometheus.
“ So YES it seems they have been made to be more HUMAN.”
Genetic variations among the Engineers, fine but don't make them like humans because it makes them less interesting. Those on P4 looked more human which I thought was boring and while I understand the idea it doesn't come off as good on the screen. You could look at other movies and find inspiration in them to make the Engineers more Alien (the Orchs in Lord of the Rings for example, or Voldemort in Harry Potter, they both look more interesting while still looking human-ish).
“... about Knowledge and Technology in Part, its to SHOW us these Engineers are NOT really Gods, they are Merely Humanoids who have the BENEFIT of being around for MANY MANY MANY Years more than us and so their Knowledge and Technology is WHAT makes them more Godlike…”
That makes sense but I still don't like the way they took with the Engineers. I wanted them to be more alien, I would have liked to see more of their society and so on but we were given disappointing Engineers that were there for just some seconds and a city that looked like a stone-hut or what ever (obviously I exaggerate). Unfortunately those things just added to the pile of disappointments in Covenant even though there are things in it to like.
“Our Engineers were supposed to be more Statue like…”
That would have been so much better, I wonder if it was a budget-thing to make them look like that. It would have fitted with Prometheus to use some CGI so they would look more like the one in Prometheus and make more sense of them.
“.... so maybe this has Changed from this being because they are GODLIKE to actually NOW being a Sub-Created Species much like David and Replicants are.”
Which is worse although I sort of get the point but that isn't to say that it's good to make them look like those on Planet 4.
I would like the Engineers to be found on different planets. If they've advanced technology they might be able to terraform things which is an interesting reference to Aliens. Could there be a connection there? Who knows, it's an interesting idea but I doubt that they'll explore that side.
Hopefully Disney will understand that the franchise needs to expand and that they should keep the Engineers but like you I'm afraid that they'll go on with more Xenos and pulse-rifles. We'll see if they will be allowed to do something new or if Disney will step in and we'll get a Star Wars disappointment.
“I think we will see the Engineers but i think they will CHANGE the Plot and Appearance of them.”
Maybe it'll be improved compared to Covenant? If that's the case then I'm for it. This doesn't mean that you can't have philosophy in it but I also don't want a Aliens 2 or a David 3 (if Prometheus was David 1 and Covenant was David 2). What I know is that I don't want what Ridley seems to want, namely more David.
About the Elders, maybe they didn't have the look but it made sense, to me that's important. I like that deleted scene which of course was deleted, maybe for some reason that I don't like and was probably for the worse. Maybe hint at some of it if you won't be allowed another movie. Don't save all the interesting things for later, show at least some of it to make people interested like an introduction.
The Engineers could have created mankind for many reasons, not just one. I'm not sure what that reason would be even if it would be interesting to get some for it.
Speaking of Weyland, it would have been interesting to see some more flashbacks between him and David in Alien Covenant. When David does X you get a flashback between him and Weyland that sort of explains his reason for doing so but don't over-do it. That would maybe have given us at least one other well-written human character in Alien Covenant even though it would have been one that wasn't featured that much but it would probably have elevated the movie.
“... or the Engineers could REFUSE to even give her any Reason.”
That would have been fun like, prrf you don't get an answer. :D
“This is in PART why they had a Tricky Plot to Continue…”
Maybe they should have ended Prometheus in a better way? By doing that you avoid the difficult task when you try to figure out where to go with the sequel. She would probably die very shortly after they reach the Engineers home-world but whatever, we don't need to see her again.
As far as why the Engineers wanted to get rid of us it's simple, just look at how mankind acts today. The Jesus-explanation is less interesting.
What's more important is where to go now? To put it short I would like for them to make new worlds, new life-forms, things that we haven't seen before, better made human characters and an end to the robot-story or stories (not more of them in the future). Scott said that it's about what kind of world that David will create, I'm not the least interested in that and also there are more things that they can expand on (like corporate greed, the Engineers, and so on) or even better introduce something new into the franchise.
I think the THEMES are Important as thats the Anchor Points the Foundation of the STORY but you need to then TELL that STORY in a Good Way.
With the Engineers we dont have much of a Explanation as far as Theatrically so for those who have ONLY seen the Movies then there is NOTHING MUCH given away about them and LESS SO with Alien Covenant
We have to remember the STARTING POINT for the Prequels was to give us more Information on WHO is the Space Jockey, more so as far as WHAT was their RACE and Intention with that Cargo (it also covered a bit about the Cargo but this was REDUCED down when we got to Prometheus).
So the STORY was to be about HOW can you Explore the Space Jockey and give them a STORY that we can Connect to Earth and this is WHEN they went for the CHARIOT OF THE GODS kind of Plot.
That the Space Jockey are the Creators of Humanity, and that they are Humanoid in Appearance to we can RELATE to them. Thus in many of the Ancient Cultures and Religions that DEPICT our Creators/Gods we see they are Mainly VERY HUMAN looking.... many accounts more so than even the Planet 4 Engineers.
some Cultures do depict our Gods as being TALLER than Humans and so THIS is what they went for. But in Numerous Cultures the Gods are NOT really any Larger than us.
So if we are looking at a Interpretation of ALL of our Ancient Mythos/Religion as far as our Creators.... then they do APPEAR to be Very Human.
Going back to the Concepts for Prometheus then some do look LESS HUMAN than others. The Final Concept they decided on was to make them appear like Living Marble Statues. I dont think it would have COST a Great Deal more to make those Planet 4 Engineers look more like in Prometheus.
Bare in Mind that ONLY their Faces/Heads and Hands are shown on Planet 4, it would NOT have taken Vastly Longer to Paint them more Pale and even USE a Glossy Paint and then stick some Contact Lenses in.
And so i dont think that BUDGET had any Effect on HOW our Engineers looked.
I think the Biggest Issue is the SIZE but with Ridley Scott he did-not want to use any kind of SPECIAL EFFECTS like they used in The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit etc It is Plain to see that the Space Jockey is about 12-15ft Tall and this was WHAT was intended with the Engineers.
The Dead Bodies on Planet 4 and the Size of the Doors etc could have been made to look the RIGHT SIZE for beings who are 10-12ft Tall say. But to be fair the Doors did seem to be HUGE so it was merely the Bodies that remained a 6-8ft Scale.
The STORY is Ultimately about CREATION and WHY would you want to SUB-CREATE and its about KNOWLEDGE and HOW that such Knowledge can be a Powerful Tool, its about showing the PITFALLS of Creating something with Free-will and how this can lead to your Creation becoming Rebellious and Sentient.
From Inception its about a Ancient Humanoid Race who have been around for Many Many Millions or over Billion Years, and that this Race had ONCE been Similar to Mankind... would have had Arts, Entertainment like we have, but they are a Race who Technologically Evolved and Genetically Evolved themselves too. They then began to LIVE more Basic Lives of the Basic things to Survive and so their Technology was used for Specific Purposes to allow for Survival they likely Shunned Technology like the AMISH people.
They become more Ritual/Religious like a Cult.... they turned against TABOO and SEX as Sex is Basically just to Procreate and so any LUST or EMOTION that is Attached to this they had Abandoned. So they Procreated by other Means and as they Evolved themselves they came to a Point when they had LOST the Ability to Procreate and YET they had NEVER Managed to become IMMORTAL.... so they became on BORROWED TIME.
They would Seed Words and Evolve Worlds, to the Point to Create other Humanoids in their Likeness where they would then Evolve them Over Time, both Technologically, but also with Knowledge/Customs and Genetically. They Nurtured their Creations taught them Limited Knowledge (but NOT the FULL FRUITS of their Knowledge).
It seemed that the Idea was these Engineers were TRYING to Evolve themselves to Transpire their Mortality to become Immortal and then their Creations could Inherent all their Knowledge and Technology.
They could COULD-NOT go and Achieve this Transcendence to Immortality and so as a Race who could NOT go and Procreate they had to NOW go and SHARE the Cosmos with their Creations who given TIME and Knowledge could become a Threat, with the Engineers Knowledge and Technology then eventually WE could become the Gods....
It would seem we also then STARTED to NOT see WHY we should Worship and Serve our Creators, we behaved in ways that Offended them... and so this was a PROBLEM and ONE they had attempted to Address by Creating Weapons to Destroy us.
This PLOT has Changed as we carried on with the Prequels, but again NONE of it is Really Explored as far as ON SCREEN but the Basis is still there.
Creation, Sub Creating and to HOW much Free-Will you allow your Creations and the Hubris that your Creations will One Day go and Overthrow you.
With Alien Covenant we was NOT really shown much about the Engineers, which is a SHAME but with the PLOT there can be MANY WORLDS were we can Explore our Engineers.
And for those who are DISAPPOINTED.... they can Introduce a Race who are ABOVE the Engineers who Do-Not have to be too Familiar to Humans ;)
I would have liked to Discover a Race who are more Aesthetically Connected to the Space Jockey in Terms of Body Proportions but YES the Pilot should still be a Space Suit.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
So what we have is a STORY about Sub-Creation.... The Engineers Created us (which kind who knows, depends if they going for the LV-223 and Planet 4 as being the same or a Sub-Creation of the other). This Plot was Continued with David with him playing Doctor Moreau/Frankenstein and it seems likely we would have seen WHAT ELSE he Created Next.
So we are going DOWN that Creation Layer of the Cake.
Where as with Prometheus the SET-UP was to Discover what is UP the Layer of Creation, as Dr Shaw wanted to know... "who Created them" but Theatrically we NEVER got a Clear Answer.
Back in the Summer of 2015 it seemed Ridley Scott was still Interested in that Question.
“I thought the subtext of that film was a bit florid and grandiose, but it asks a good question: who created us?”
Well Prometheus had indicated the Engineers, so thats something we kind of KNOW unless he had Intended to Change that a Little?
“You’ve got to go back and find those engineers and see what they are thinking. If engineers are the forerunners of us, and therefore were creators of life forms in places that were possible for biology to function, who created that? Where’s the big boy?”
So this seems to Indicate the Engineers played a Role in our Creation and that WHY was something they was looking to maybe Explore.... But then there was that Question.... that someone/some Race had Created those Engineers.
But alas it seems things Changed before we got to the Final Drafts that became Alien Covenant, with that Movie there is NOTHING on Screen that is to SHOW that those Engineers and the Ones in Prometheus are NOT the same. Ridley Scott had said they DID-NOT want to Meet God in the First Movie and with Dr Shaws intended QUESTIONS then it would seem our Engineers are merely a Sub-Creation by some other Race/Being.
There is NOT enough given to Prove if they are going for the LV-223 kinds to be a Sub-Creation of the Planet 4 kind, all RS had indicated was that the Engineers are NOT a RACE but a Civilization and so there can be some Diversity in their Appearance. Also the LV-223 guys are the Military so they are likely Engineered as Super Soldiers.
so we NEVER really got more Depth/History to our Engineers, we NEVER had any Clear Indication as to WHO had Created Them or if that THEM applies to our Prometheus Engineers.
Ridley Scott has Confirmed the Engineers are NOT just Confined to Planet 4 and LV-223 and we would have seen them Return. What he had given away and Chris Seagers is the HALL OF HEADS are the Hierarchy of the Engineers those who had Created the CULT/WAYS of their Civilization.
The Hall of Heads shows a Race who have some Diversity in their Appearance. Where are these Guys? likely LONG GONE.... would they have been TALLER than our Engineers?
Michelle brought up the Babushka Doll and so maybe the OLDER GENERATIONS of the Engineers are Taller? even within the Abrahamic Faith it seems indicated that ADAM was MUCH MORE Taller than our Current Human Form.
I think it was a Missed Opportunity to NOT go and Explore the Layer of the Cake above our Engineers.
"If engineers are the forerunners of us, and therefore were creators of life forms in places that were possible for biology to function, who created that? Where’s the big boy?”
So YES i think we should go and Explore who the BIG BOY or Big Boys are.
Our Engineers are likely the Sub-Creation of someone else.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Alien:Resurrection takes place in 2386. W Y and the military are still running around looking for the perfect weapon, you'd think they'd be targeting Engineer / Elder technology by the 24th century....surely they have come across these aliens by that time?!
Maybe the Earth is dystopian and there just isn't any space exploration.
I'd like to see more Engineers..... but after the year 2400. Don't have to be so concerned with the timeline.
"you'd think they'd be targeting Engineer / Elder technology by the 24th century"
Yeah this is a PROBLEM when they went for the PLOT of Prometheus a Problem that could be SOLVED.... Provided.
1) The Engineers World that David and Dr Shaw went to was MUCH FURTHER AWAY than Planet 4, but then its HOW do other Humans from Earth reach such a World before the events of ALIEN.
2) Before we get to ALIEN then LV-223 is DESTROYED leaving the ONLY remnants of the Technology/Bio-Weapon on the Derelict on LV-426
Considering Alien Covenant then by the Year 2120 it would make sense that there is NOTHING to be had regarding the Engineers Tech and Xenomorph/Black Goo on LV-223, Planet 4 and Origae-6 by the TIME we get to ALIEN.
The Idea i had for where David and Dr Shaw would go was VERY FAR AWAY and they would NOT arrive until after 2150-2200, and so the AFTERMATH where some Engineers would then be on a Conquest to Destroy us would not take place until after 2300-2400, its left OPEN to bring the Engineers back say before Alien R or after Alien R.
You still have the Problem of LV-223 though.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
When looking at some of the THINGS that Ridley Scott has said about the Engineers and Especially after AC. He has said they are NOT a Race but a Civilization, and before he has said about JUST as there are Many Versions/Races of Man then WHY cant the same be said for the Engineers.
So he was looking at the Species having some Diversity, even Hinting those on Planet 4 are the Originals and they Live for about 200 Years.
So when we look at our Prometheus Engineers then they do look more like they were a Perfect Creation as far as ART, as in you have Made a Perfect Human Form from MARBLE and then Brought it to LIFE.
The HALL OF HEADS does seem to show some Diversity within the Engineers, there appears to be some subtitle Differences like you see in Star Trek with some of the HUMANOID Races... for Example.... Humans, Romulans, Vulcans and Bajorans. These all have a Very Human like Appearance compared to say Klingons, Ferengi and Cardassians
So there could be some Diversity where the Genetic Linage of the Engineers traces back to some Diversity of their Ancestors, they likely have Seeded the DNA of their Ancestors in different ways to Create Humanoids on Worlds who may have some Variety.
I will add that the Engineers that David had Experimented on and Drawn did look more like those from Prometheus than what we saw on Planet 4 (The Brows and Noses).
I think its OPEN to explore Ancestral Race above those Engineers, and besides i think the PLOT leaves it OPEN to take us to Worlds with Diverse Engineers Aesthetically because if we look back on Earth then we came from the Homo Species of which the Lineage of Homo Erectus is where we had Evolved from as well as Neanderthal Man also having the same Linage.
But you can see there are Differences between a Homo Sapien (Human) and a Neanderthal. So if we can Imagine that there was a Number of other Humanoids that was in that Linage who along with Neanderthals had survived as of TODAY then you would have some Genetic Diversity and so WHY cant the same be said about the Engineers Genetic Linage?
But i think that MOST Fans want to see the RETURN of the Prometheus Style Engineers... the Living Statues.... aka Synthetic Looking.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I like the strangeness of the Prometheus Engineers. Would have loved to see millions of these types in AC.
The only thing humans in the 22nd century might want from the Elder / Engineers might be their star maps. This would save a great deal of exploration time and money. Humans seem to have everything they need. The desire for the 'perfect weapon' is really just movie plot nonsense.
"Would have loved to see millions of these types in AC"
The only Problem would be HOW would they react to David and Dr Shaw? So then its a Question of would people had liked to seen THOSE GUYS... getting Bombarded and Dead ;)
I doubt this would be the END of the Engineers, i know that some would LIKE to see Engineers who looked more like those in Prometheus again and i think IF we ever saw any again then DISNEY would go back to the LOOK in Prometheus but i think they would be Portrayed as NOT much different to the Predators (Kick Ass and Ask Questions latter).
Regarding the Engineers Tech i think their Technology/Secrets and Knowledge is something that W-Y and the like would SURELY have more Interest in rather than to Pursue to the Xenomorph
UNLESS there is something to be GAINED from the Xenomorph beyond just that it is a Deadly Organism that can Wreck Havoc on a Colony, City or World that it is UNLEASHED on.
The Engineers Star Maps may be USEFUL but they are NOT much USE if we dont have the Technology to Explore their Maps. But learn to USE or Reverse Engineer their Space Technology then Mankind has Access to Entire Galaxy and Beyond.
Surely something more Worthwhile than EGGS!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I'll go back to this one because it's interesting
"so we NEVER really got more Depth/History to our Engineers, we NEVER had any Clear Indication as to WHO had Created Them or if that THEM applies to our Prometheus Engineers."
There is a problem to not go more into detail in one movie even though the time is limited because if you give people too little about it and expect them to find out in a sequel there's a risk that people will be disappointed and not care anyways. Even though they wouldn't have cut it that much, there's a risk to do that.
Covenant made the Hall of Heads alright, even though we might not have been given an explanation to it. I would like to see how it would be on other planets that they have settled on. If the Engineers taught us technology and humans terraformed in Aliens then maybe the Engineers used terramorfing in some way before us?
"there are Many Versions/Races of Man then WHY cant the same be said for the Engineers."
I understand that but they should have made them more interesting in Covenant. Those two things could co-exist, they just have to try harder (Prometheus-reference). Different kinds of humans and different kind of Engineers sure but don't make them too similar because it removes too much of the alien-ness.
"But i think that MOST Fans want to see the RETURN of the Prometheus Style Engineers... the Living Statues.... aka Synthetic Looking."
Those, and other kind of Engineers but they should look less human than those on Planet 4. About Disney and the Engineers, I think that there are ways to do that but you got to think a bit.
"The Engineers Star Maps may be USEFUL but they are NOT much USE if we dont have the Technology to Explore their Maps."
There are probably ways to make a movie where that plays a part. I'm not sure what that would be but there is maybe a way to make that work. Would that be too much like Star Wars? Get good writers that can alien-ize that then it could maybe work.
"maybe the Engineers used terramorfing in some way before us?"
I think thats a Certainty i think with comments by RS, then its seems that NOT every World the Engineers Seed is able to Suport Life and so something has to be DONE to some Worlds that ALLOW them to Support Life.
And so YES that means some kind of Terra-forming.... but RS seems to Indicate that is NOT the Engineers who Prepare such Worlds... they merely Sacrifice themselves on these Terra-Formed Worlds so that Life can Begin/Evolve.
He implies those who CREATE the Worlds are the BIG BOY!
"If engineers are the forerunners of us, and therefore were creators of life forms in places that were possible for biology to function, who created that? Where’s the big boy? You think this was all an accident? I don’t know."
This was in September 2015 the Alien Covenant Drafts were Wrote after this, and this Comment was around the Time when RS had Announced the Next Movie is Alien: Paradise Lost...... but within 2 Months he then said the Next Movie is Alien: Covenant.
And so with AC we Never found out Anything much about the Engineers yet his Earlier Comment would Indicate we would PEEL the Layers Above them and maybe see WHO is the Big Boy.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
HERE is a Interview that was done for AVPGalaxy were they Interview some of the Actors who Played some of the Engineers in Alien Covenant.
"Scott James – The prosthetics were full face pieces including pieces around our eyes and the bridge of the nose. There was also extensive make-up over the whole face and feet"
This Indicates it was NOT just a Quick Paint Job and so to APPLY say Prosthetics more Defined like in Prometheus and add a more Glossy Paint would NOT have Cost them Considerably more Time and Money. And so it seems they was INTENDED to look how they did.
"Billy Mansell – Now this is a good question! We worked with second unit that day and the second unit director wasn’t giving much away to what we really where but they did confirm we are Engineers! And the costume designer called us all “her Engineers” so we do know we are 100% Engineers but I do believe our origins is something Mr Scott is holding close to his chest… what I will say there was speculation that the Prometheus Engineers where more like a military type rather than our more civilian look I think all will be revealed if Sir Ridley gets his way and films the next one."
Confirming the Planet 4 guys were Engineers, the Civilization Kind which Ridley Scott had also Confirmed.
"Billy Mansell – It was never discussed why! Like I said in an earlier question this is something Ridley and crew never spoke about but I am in the belief that Mr Whytes character was more of a military type where my character was more civilian type! Yeah the eyes and skin are different but who’s to say it’s because the Ian whyte type is enhanced genetically for space exploration and combat? Who knows?"
Speculating that the LV-223 Engineers could be Genetically Engineered/Enhanced. And i do think THIS is what Ridley Scott was going for.
Some of Davids Sketches showed Engineers who some appeared more like the Planet 4 guys and some more like the Prometheus guys but on Planet 4 some of them had more Similar look to Prometheus as far as Bone Structure etc and as Ridley Scott had said... there could be some Diversity in Appearance of the Engineers just as there is with HUMANS.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017