The Engineers (Sub Creation)41,446 Views113 RepliesAdd A Reply
I know similar Topics have been Discussed before regarding out ENGINEERS. Subjects that have brought up certain Questions about the Differences.
People Felt Disappointed with the Planet 4 Engineers and we had had many a Speculation about them surely NOT being Engineers.
Ridley Scott however had Confirmed they are INDEED our Engineers and he even went FURTHER! He had claimed that those Engineers on Planet 4 were the Originals!
This surely Indicates that those Planet 4 Engineers or their Ancestors had Predated the Engineers we saw in Prometheus. When discussing where the Next Movie could go, we had Ridley Scott mention it would be about AI and he referenced that Batty and Racheal (from Bladerunner) were AI which means he views Replicants as AI.
In this Context maybe his Revelation is that the Engineers in Prometheus are basically similar to those Planet 4 Engineers as Replicants are to Humans in Bladerunner.
A Enhanced, Sub-Created Species that are Created to Perform Certain Tasks.
Prometheus was our First introduction to the Engineers, a Technologically Advanced Humanoid Race who are indicated as playing a LARGE ROLE in the Creation/Evolution of Mankind. Revealed to be Human looking to a Degree, but Physically Superior Looking with White Marbled Skin, they had a Enigma about them a almost Artificial Aesthetic (like a Ancient Marble Statue come to Life).
At the Time of Prometheus we did have our similar looking Elders who appeared to be Older more Frail Versions but as this SCENE is removed then we cant Assume this is what the Elders/Hierarchy would look like.
One Reason for this is that Ridley Scott did-not want to meet GOD in the First Movie, and that Dr Shaw and David would be off to the Planet of the Engineers to meet these beings who are NOT any God.. not in the Traditional Sense.
Alien Covenant takes us to what we can Assume is the Planet of the Engineers (Paradise) what we do see is a World where we meet Engineer looking inhabitants who do-not quite look the Same as our Prometheus Engineers, they appeared to be LESS Enigmatic MORE Human. (was this a Budget Restraint so less was spent on Cosmetic Effects).
The Revelation by Ridley Scott that these guys are the Originals does indicate there is a DIFFERENCE, and while our Planet 4 Engineers look more Human like a Hybrid we also see they have Females, and from Davids Notes/Drawings there was Infants... which means that these guys could Procreate.
The Earlier Concept/Idea that lead to Prometheus was the Engineers were a Ancient Race that had Genetically Engineered themselves to the point they LOST the ability to Procreate, which maybe could lead to Speculation that the Sacrificial Scene was a Project that could eventually allow them to Procreate Again.
Alien Covenant suggests this is NOT the case as far as our Planet 4 Engineers (could they have lost the ability a long time ago? and regained it?). Ridley Scott had said the Engineers are NOT a Race but a Civilization and he mentioned while there are Different Kinds of Human Races, why cant the same be for the Engineers.
We could Speculate the Engineers Seed many Worlds with Humanoid Life and then maybe add the desired Results to their Genepool where only the Creations deemed a Success are added? (thats just Speculation on my Part).
Back to the ORIGINALS comment....
This seems to imply this regarding the Prometheus and Alien Covenant Engineers, which i had speculated does this IMPLY the Enhanced (Übermensch) Engineers from Prometheus more like the Replicants in Bladerunner.
I would like to DRAW your attention to the one Image i posted with the Prometheus Sacrificial Engineer, we can see this ENGINEER lacks any NIPPLES.. could indicate they are not BORN in a Womb....
NOW cast your attention to the DRAWINGS by David and while NOT so HD resolution we can see that the Males and Females and Infants have NIPPLES it is likely these Planet 4 Engineers can Procreate by Natural Means.
This could indeed imply that our Prometheus Engineers are more in common with the Replicants and David (only Organic AI)
If this is the CASE, then it adds some Depth to the WHOLE PLOT and how to look at the Prometheus Mythos and other Mythos and indeed the FALLEN ANGELS remark that Ridley Scott seemed to Label those Prometheus Engineers with.
We could now be ASKING.... so WHICH of these Engineers Created us? and WHY?
Maybe there is YET a even Bigger Curveball to be Thrown!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The Concept from the START when Jon Spaights came in to work on a Prequel was while it would cover things related to the Xenomorph, it was to give us a Story we can Relate with to Introduce the Engineers.
Because as Jon Spaights had said... if your going to do a Prequel and we use the Space Jockey Race as the Skeleton of some Ancient Alien being then they may look a bit SILLY. But then also how would Humans Interact with a Alien Species who dont speak the same Language.
So he felt the Space Jockey was Important, something you could Explore Deeper after you have Gave the Answers to ALIEN... but how to explore a ALIEN Species who surely would NOT be able to Communicate with us.
So he felt it was better to introduce the Space Jockey as a Space Suit, and the Occupants as Humanoids who played a Role in our Creation... so that you can then have a Plot that Connects to us, and where we could Communicate with them.
Even so.... HR Gigers Concepts clearly showed us Bald Humanoids in a Space Suit so its not like Jon Spaights was the First to Ponder such a Explanation.
So with Jon Spaights works it seemed to Start with them being the Gods... but they are NOT really Gods.
They are a Humanoid Race who maybe Evolved like we do in Real Life, they Advance past the Need for things we do today, they Advance past the need for Certain Culture and Religion and Evolve themselves to a Genetic Level of Advancement but also Socially in what they are Interested in, and eventually they abandon things like Relationships, Music, Art to a Degree... they Abandoned Sex and found other ways to Procreate..
UNTIL they had Evolved to Live for Thousands of Years and then Lost the Ability to Procreate Naturally.
Here is a Page from what Jon Spaights had done for FOX/RS as a Pitch to the Engineers.
This fitted with the Engineers and Elders from Prometheus.
But as things went by, to when we got Alien Covenant it seems the Engineers and their Role etc has Changed somewhat.
Could we get a Revelation the Hall of Heads represent a Older Species of Engineers who are more alike what Jon Spaights had Described in his Monologue to FOX/RS
Which Matches the Prometheus Engineers, but as those on Planet 4 are described as the Originals and so must Pre-Date the Prometheus Engineers... and so if the Hall of Heads are Engineers too they must Predate the Planet 4 Engineers and are likely more like those Engineers than the Prometheus ones..
But NONE of this is explained on Screen, its only from Comments by Ridley Scott and Chris Seagers... so things can be Changed!
By that have the Hall of Heads Elders as a more Ancient Advanced version, where some of those Sub-Created Planet 4 Engineers had decided to Evolve themselves to be like their Creators or Sub-Create something in the hope of Replicating their Creators.. The Hall of Heads Elders.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
If David is to become the Space Jockey, and to end up oviposited, will the trick be him "not minding that it hurts"?
Creature prosthetics supervisor, Conor O'Sullivan refers to Ridley wanting the aspect of the naked Engineer to recall the characters of William Blake’s work, specifically William Blake’s rendition of Milton’s Satan, who is calling upon the other fallen angels to raise their parliament in Hell.
Certainly it was the case that RS had implied the Engineers are Fallen Angels, it would be Interesting to WONDER of which Engineers are he referring to... the LV-223 Ones and all of them? Or only a Number of them, or the Engineers in General.
For them to be Fallen... they either or and... would have had to had Rebelled against their Creators or Hierarchy/Leaders., had done things against what their Creators or Hierarchy/Leaders had intended.... or attempted to Corrupt/Change their Creators or Hierarchy/Leaders Creations and Plans..
IF the Intention was to show the Naked/Sacrificial Engineer as a Prometheus/Lucifer Figure then i cant see how this would apply, as he was just Following Orders, and its not like after his Death he could Influence us..
So in context to Fallen... then it must be the Actions of those who had Commanded that Engineer to Carry out that Act... who Committed a Fallen Action, or that from the Sacrifice lead to Creation that became Fallen. Be this becoming the LV-223 Engineers?
The only way that Engineer could Solely be considered to be Fallen by himself would be if he Remote Controlled the Ship that dropped him off and Performed this Action by his OWN for his own Agenda... (we dont see the other Engineers in the Theatrical Cut, so that could be a way of looking at it).
I think when we consider Alien Covenant and Revelations that Ridley Scott and Chris Seagers had made regarding the Engineers, then it could seem the Prometheus Type Engineers had committed the Role of Fallen Angels.
Regarding the Space Jockey and David... boy that would upset the FANS!... but i would NOT rule out that as the Climax of the Prequels... or ONE of his Creations.. so either HIM or ONE of his Creations becomes the Space Jockey as a Act of Hubris or Redemption.... we cant RULE that out!
I am sure such a Curve-ball like that would BUM most Fans out.... so they would rather have a Engineer be in that Seat!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
What about dating? what about the dilatation of time if they flew to the lV and 4 planets at speeds above the speed of light, how many years have passed on earth at that time? a few thousand or millions and if the harvest engineers were to arrive on earth 2000 years ago, if they had flown, they would have arrived in film time, not 2000 years ago. so if Prometheus took off then a dozen generations of people to earth will not get an answer from him or return to see their one man in life.
I didn`t think that LV-223 is so popular lol
Revisiting this topic, makes me sad to think the Engineer side of the Alien storyline might not be continued in Disney's next installment...
I think the Engineer Story was Interesting and could have been Explored in many ways, i know a LOT of People were Disappointed with the ARC/Revelations and would WANT to see Space Jockey Suited Engineers just TURN UP with their Bio-Weapons and KICK-ASS but i would have been more Interesting in their History, their Culture and Question if they have other Conflicts among themselves.
Looking back at the Movies and Comments by RS etc... then i am still DRAWN to the LV-223 Engineers being either.
1) A Genetically Engineered Sub-Creation of the Engineers.
2) A Group of Engineers who had Genetically Engineered themselves to be Superior.
And thus PRIOR to the Genetic Engineering/Evolution they would have looked MORE LIKE those we saw on Planet 4.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I agree with you Chris on this one. It would be sad if they would erase the Engineers and give us another Xeno-movie. We have had Xenos in the first four and the AVP's and also in Alien Covenant although briefly (due to studio-pressure?). Even though Prometheus is very flawed adding the Engineers was a very good thing since it expanded the franchise. To me they should introduce new worlds, and new civilizations and not just have the Xeno every time because that gets old.
About the Engineers, I pretty much preferred those in Prometheus compared to those in AC. The Prometheus-Engineers looked bigger and more alien. Unfortunately the Engineers in Alien Covenant looked more like people with face-paint. Maybe they looked like that because of the budget so they couldn't make them more interesting and also they were just in the movie briefly. Let's think about it, if you will just have something in a short scene then maybe you won't care that much to make it look good compared to other things that will feature for a longer time in the movie. What BD said about the original Engineers and the steroid-version makes sense but it makes the original ones look lame if we by the originals mean those that we saw briefly in AC. They could have looked more interesting and alien.
Maybe there will be a new movie some day (doubtful at this point) and then I hope that they will be back. Hopefully we will see both the smaller Engineers and the bigger ones. They are just too interesting to throw in the trash-can. Star Trek and Star Wars can have different things so why not the Alien-franchise? Eventually it won't make as much money but you can at least expand it beyond what we had in the first four even though Resurrection is a joke with some good things in it.
The Engineers have potential, you just have to make them interesting and make sense of it.
In Regards to the Engineers i know that some had been DISAPPOINTED with what we saw in Alien Covenant. However RS did say that they ARE how he INTENDED them to look.
I think if you look at them, then if they Spent a Extra 45 Min in Make Up each, then you could have given them a Pale Skin that has more Gloss (this could also be Highlighted in CGI) and then they could have had Contact Lenses in and LOOKED a bit more like in Prometheus.
THIS would NOT have Greatly Increased Budget or Production Time and so MAYBE the Aesthetic was NOT due to Budget/Time and INDEED this is just HOW they wanted our Engineers to appear.
Looking at his Comments it seems the Intention could be that the LV-223 Engineers are either
1) Sub-Created Superior Species for a Purpose and so they are Basically like Engineer Replicants and so similar to David.
2) A Group of Engineers who are Genetically Modified/Evolved and then its a Case of was this the Engineer Agenda, or was this a Faction of Engineers who had Genetically Altered themselves?
Ridley Scott had spoken about the Engineers in Alien Covenant, and he had said they are NOT a RACE but they are a Civilization, he had also said prior that just because Humans have different Races then WHY cant the same be said for the Engineers. I also recall he had said those on Planet 4 where the Original Engineers.
I know this may seem a Disappointment as it makes the Space Jockey become something EVEN LESS ALIEN. But the KEY THEME is that ANYONE can become a Creator with the Knowledge and Technology. Lets say that some Scientist managed to Combine the Best Traits of a Human and Ape, just to show THEY COULD! and so we have Created a PLANET OF THE APES Species... the HUBRIS is this Species could OVERTHROW us and so we get to a PLANET OF THE APES.... and the Hubris/Tale would be thats WHAT you GET for Playing GOD.
But such a PLOT does mean the Engineers are NOT as GODLIKE as some would have wanted to see, then its like i Mentioned on another TOPIC.... if you took a Group of Humans from 100 Years Time in a Time-Traveling Vehicle and they went back in Time say 2000-3000 Years ago then THEY would seem somewhat GODLIKE.
I still think it would be a GOOD IDEA to Introduce a Race who came before the Engineers and have them appear more GODLIKE.
However i think HAD we seen RS get to Continue with the Prequels then such a ALPHA Race would actually be Created by David on Origae-6 and maybe become the Space Jockey on LV-426
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
“However i think HAD we seen RS get to Continue with the Prequels then such a ALPHA Race would actually be Created by David on Origae-6 and maybe become the Space Jockey on LV-426.”
No thanks, it's too much about David already. I'm not sure if you support such a thing but I think that they shouldn't have anything to do with David. Hopefully Disney would give him a big no in case that would be his idea. To me that would be to destroy the prequels but Scott is too much into the android-thing and I don't find it interesting.
In case they would introduce another life-form then they shouldn't have anything to do with David at all. Hopefully this would take away some of the focus from the android-thing. The story has been hijacked by this David-focus. Maybe they could kill him off early in the movie and carry on with things that are more interesting. They could have the AC-Engineers in it but have more about other kind of Engineers that could be more interesting. I think that the prequels need writers that are good at what they are doing and an director that knows his or her limits and that doesn't interfere with the story.
The alpha-race that you suggest would be created by David seems to be so and so. Why should everything be about an android? The existence of something above the Engineers seems like an interesting idea so I'm not totally bashing your suggestion. What I am against is David creating them. If they have tried something in two movies and the result has been a mixed bag then it seems foolish to me to continue with it. Hopefully they will reduce the role of him heavily, I'm tired of it. Some other life-form from somewhere else could be interesting so in that way it could expand the franchise. The focus on the android has made the franchise smaller, because it could be so much more interesting.
"The story has been hijacked by this David-focus"
It seems that THIS was the Main Force behind the Prequels, looking back before Alien Covenant (inc the Drafts) there seems to had been 3 other sets of Concepts,(where it was about David) and IF the Source i had was Correct then even prior to THEM what we had again was a Story that was Central to David.... and WHAT he would Create.
Some Fans are ok with this, to Degree and others SIMPLY do-not want any Story about Androids....
And so when i mention ALPHA-RACE i mainly think that you could go and EXPLORE another Race who are ABOVE the Engineers, they could be LESS-HUMAN or even Totally NOT Humanoid.
I only Mention such a Race in Context to David in regards to WHAT i think was going to come NEXT and so in that Case it would NOT have been a ALPHA RACE but more a OMEGA RACE.
I suspect that David would Create a more Perfect Human Species from those Human Embryos and he would Charade to them that he is their GOD and Creator... UNTIL other Humans Turn up and his Creations then DISCOVER their TRUE ORIGINS and Davids... and well thats when Creating those beings becomes a DOWNFALL for David.
And so i SUSPECT that the Space Jockey would have been either David (in a Newer Synthetic Body), one of Davids Creations (Humans MK2) or maybe another Synthetic who is TRYING to STOP what David intends.
It may have ENDED UP being a Engineer but i SUSPECT that RS would have Thrown some Curve-balls that LIKELY would have Ruffled more Feathers.
I just dont think MANY Fans would be Happy at such though....
I do THINK that the Franchise could Explore other Races that Created the Engineers or that the Engineers had Created and by doing so either in SETTING a STORY that is FAR FAR AWAY or a VERY LONG TIME AGO... or Both
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I'm just glad they kept the Engineers human, not giving them prosthetic ears / nose / etc.... Last thing we need is to venture into Star Trek / Star Wars universe. ( IMHO )
I think YES it was RIGHT to make the Engineers appear more Human as THIS does FIT with the Ancient Astronaut kind of PLOT where Many Accounts of Ancient Gods/Religions have our Gods as being VERY HUMAN looking.
If we introduced a RACE who are ABOVE the Engineers and their Creators, do we then make them LESS HUMAN? I think maybe but maybe you DONT make them too FAR APART and ALIEN looking?
"Last thing we need is to venture into Star Trek / Star Wars universe"
Who knows what the PLANS would have been for RS had the Prequels been a GREAT SUCCESS! I think he would have SHOWN us Various Worlds with Various Races and i do think some would be Humanoid but Different and so i would NOT say that he would have STEERED AWAY from being a bit of a Star Trek/Star Wars.
It would be Interesting to see what Arcturian Poontang looks like as in the Arcturians as a Species.. are they a Creation by the Engineers? could they be a Creation by David?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"It seems that THIS was the Main Force behind the Prequels..."
If that's the case I would say that they went wrong from the beginning. They should have made it re-written to tone down David's role because at least I'm not interested in it. Human history and the Engineers yes, David no. Let it be in a spin-off movie about androids in the alien-franchise but not in the major ones. A sort of Rogue One in the Alien-universe about androids could be OK if it's done in an interesting way but not in the major movies.
"And so when i mention ALPHA-RACE i mainly think that you could go and EXPLORE another Race who are ABOVE the Engineers, they could be LESS-HUMAN or even Totally NOT Humanoid."
That seems interesting, I would support that. Get some decent writers and a director that doesn't interfere with the story. They could look around for inspiration and try to use that to expand the franchise into involving other things. Androids could be a part of the story but not be the story. It would be interesting to see what kind of rituals they have, architecture, medicine, and so on. These are things that I hoped to see in Alien Covenant but they messed it up.
"I suspect that David would Create a more Perfect Human Species from those Human Embryos and he would Charade to them that he is their GOD and Creator... UNTIL other Humans Turn up and his Creations then DISCOVER their TRUE ORIGINS and Davids... and well thats when Creating those beings becomes a DOWNFALL for David."
Whatever, I don't care about that even though I'm fine with the fact that some people enjoy such a thing. That sounds like Raised By Wolves, something that I'm not very interested in since it seems that the characters are lame plus the over-reliance on androids. You mention themes, they are interesting but the story isn't. A story got to work for me otherwise the themes don't matter that much.
An Engineer as the SJ seems to make more sense but it shouldn't have anything to do with David. Right now it's all about a mad robot, which quite frankly is crap. Some people might find the android-tale to be interesting and that's their right to do so but I don't like it.
"I do THINK that the Franchise could Explore other Races that Created the Engineers or that the Engineers had Created and by doing so either in SETTING a STORY that is FAR FAR AWAY or a VERY LONG TIME AGO... or Both"
That would be awesome, hopefully they get some decent writers that can write and that know that the franchise needs to expand beyond Xenos and David.
I think that ONE of the things that RS was going for is to ASK US...
What Constitutes Creation?, a SOUL and Immortality.
So the Engineers have Created/Evolved Life that has became US... so you can Genetically Modify and Engineer Biology to Create a Intelligent Biological Life-Form.
But it was to SHOW us that WHY cant that be done with Artificial Creation, a None-Organic Creation and so with David its Basically to SHOW that he is MORE HUMAN than we think... YET he does-not have the Disadvantages of being Human.
But the Emphasis became TOO MUCH about HIM and i am sure Many Fans would have seen him as a SUPPORTING ROLE.
As for the Space Jockey i think its a MISTAKE to even go and make the Prequels eventually LEAD to that EVENT... I think the Space Jockey should Eventually be revealed to be a Engineer or the Race who are ABOVE the Engineers.
But i SUSPECT that it would be a Creation of David, and would NOT go and RULE-OUT that we would have Concluded with this 10ft Being that David had Created would have DAVIDS SOUL that is Transferred to it some HOW!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Without David it's just evil scientist / evil corporation doing it for the money ( Done to death by thousands of movies / novels IMHO ).
I consider David an immortal version of Peter Weyland. But as where Peter would have to involve greedy / gossipy / stupid humans ( Prometheus ), David insulates us from that.
I like David as judge, jury, executioner. Cut out the middle humans.
I too, don't want the Space Jockey touched....But I'm really curious on just what RS has in mind and would gladly shell out a large amount of money to find out!
I think the Basis that RS is going for is about PLAYING GOD.....
The New Planet of the Apes is kind of a Example.... But lets just say that some Scientist wants to Experiment with the Genomes of a Human and Ape to TRY and make a HYBRID... in Part for Curiosity, in Part because such a THING could be USEFUL for Certain Tasks (like Replicants were used for) but its also for the Creators Vanity to just SHOW that they CAN and so HOW Successful they are with Genetics.
So you Create a Hybrid so the APE has more Dexterity, it has Superior Speed, Agility and Strength, but its NOT as Smart as a Human. However NO SOON as you then Enhance the Hybrid so that it can be as EQUAL to a Human in Intelligence and these Hybrids become Sentient and see themselves as the Superior Species.
Then if you have NO CONTROL over them, and they CAN and START to Procreate at a Quick Pace...... then your IN TROUBLE.... and you have the HUBRIS of trying to PLAY GOD will come back and BITE YA in the ASS!
The same thing can be said with Replicants if they Managed to Extend their Lives to Hundreds of Years.... thats Potential Trouble for Mankind.
And so THIS is kind of what RS is going for on Multiple Levels, but he had Decided to Concentrate this down to DAVID.... to show and QUESTION that if you can Create a Artificial Person who has Emotions, Desire and Ambition and Feelings then are THEY really much Different to us?
So we are Essentially Biological Machines... we Differ from Apes because we are more Intelligent and can Accomplish more than a Ape... and so CAN our David.
Do Apes have SOULS? and so then its WHY do we have SOULS or what would Constitute our Souls? And if our Soul is our Memories, our Emotions, our Empathy or Lack Of, all these things that make us WHO we are. And so we HAVE NO SPIRITUAL SOUL.... then David indeed is Immortal and has a Soul too.
But i know to take the Creation Cake down to the Layer of David and WHAT he would CREATE is maybe NOT to everyone's CUP OF TEA....
I am sure that Fans would have liked to see WHY and WHAT ELSE the Engineers have Created and WHO had Created them!
Regarding David and whats NEXT..... i suspect that he would go on to CREATE his own Humanoids and those Human Embryos would be getting EVOLVED. But OF COURSE..... this will be a Great Hubris and Downfall for David.
But indeed i think it would be Interesting to see WHAT ELSE the Engineers had Created as the PLOT seems to be they are MORE INTERESTED in Creating Life like Humans than Monsters like the Xenomorph..... But when these Shepard's (Engineers) find their Lambs are becoming a Problem/Disruptive then having a WOLF to Deal with them is Handy... but its NOT about the WOLF this was ALIEN and LV-223 i think there was more SCOPE in seeing WHAT other Races the Engineers have Created/Evolved.
with David i think we have seen his WOLF and he has Proven he can Create a more Perfect Wolf than the Engineers had on LV-223, and i think David would NOW want to show he can Create more Perfect Lambs than the Engineers had too.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Regarding the OT
A lot has Changed since Prometheus, with the REMOVAL of the Elders scene then the Prometheus Engineers could be just SOULLESS CLONES.. They are Created to SEED the Worlds and then also to MESS ABOUT with other Stuff so the Main Engineer Species can have their LITTLE HAPPY BORING LIVES ;)
The way to look at is IF we Seed other Worlds using Human Sacrifices... but then you Create say Replicants or Clones who you then DEEM as NOT having Human Rights, and so you then Sacrifice them instead as they STILL have the same DNA/Building Blocks for LIFE.
Or another way could be as i have said that maybe SOME of the Engineers decide to USE their Creation Tools to Borrow Traits of other Organisms to Genetically Alter and PERFECT themselves....
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"I'm just glad they kept the Engineers human, not giving them prosthetic ears / nose / etc.... Last thing we need is to venture into Star Trek / Star Wars universe. ( IMHO )"
What Jon Spaights recognised early on is that to make the story relatable you need this to be a humanoid story.
Unconsciously or otherwise you then move into the very fertile area, "that God made man in his image."
Whilst Prometheus was never going to prove Elizabeth right that statement that God made man is implicit in the opening scene by a combination of Engineered ingredients man was made/engineered and God would not make his creation look or be different from what their physical form took.
Indeed given that the incident by the waterfall sped up creation that transmission was more important in imparting 'something' as opposed to being pre occupied with physical appearance. The creatures of the Moon missed this point and when they started to sub create (the deacon) physical form became important but what it should really have told them is all those unholy creations which lead to the Deacon missed the point of the original seeding and the further degradation (the creature) was an extension of that.
This of course is written in the context of everything said and done up to the 12th June 2012. The Engineers of Covenant looked the way they did to save money according to the production team. That they looked less pure less David like (Michelangelo not Fassbender) enabled Ridley to say they were the originals.
I think that YES the MADE in the Image of GOD is relevant.
I think with the PLOT to show these Engineers are our Creators and this is WHY we are Similar is a Interesting WAY to Explore who the SPACE JOCKEY was as John Spaights had said it then makes the STORY go to Connect to US.
The Engineers had a Number of Different Concepts, and WHAT we had ENDED with did look more HUMAN but they had that MAJESTIC look about them too. You could say like Marble, or Glossy/Plastic almost SYNTHETIC to a degree.
After Prometheus then RS said he did-not want to MEET GOD in the First Movie which was kind of saying the Engineers we saw are NOT GOD and maybe they are a Creation of someone else? There also was that QUESTION that Dr Shaw had asked... WHO MADE THEM?
Ridley Scott had FELT the Elders Scene was kind of GIVING AWAY too much, yet it Mainly had SHOWN that the Elders appeared to be merely OLDER and more FRAIL versions of our Engineers from Prometheus.
Between the Shooting of Prometheus to the Edit Room to the Home Release and then as we Progress to Alien Covenant then YES i think that THINGS had Changed a bit...
I think some were Disappointed with the Planet 4 Engineers, RS had indicated they END RESULT was intended... I think that YES to Create the Engineers like in Prometheus would have COST MORE than we got.
But for a SHORT SCENE and with the Engineers Clothed and many with Head Coverings and Hats, then a BIT more of a GLOSSY Make Up and Black Contact Lenses would NOT have added Greatly to the BUDGET or Make Up Time (Cost what $50-100 a Head More and 40 Min Tops Extra in the Make Up Chair).
So if it was Budget Cuts it would be PENNY Pinching Cuts.
Looking at the Themes at Play then it could GUIDE us to Conclude.
*Prometheus Engineers are a Engineered Sub-Creation like the Replicants are in Blade Runner.
*Prometheus Engineers are HOW the Race had Genetically Engineered themselves but then they ABANDONED doing this and became back to their Original Form.
*The Prometheus Engineers are a Group who had Attempted to Evolve/Perfect themselves while other Engineers were Content with how they were.
Just add that the Engineers Eyes are NOT really Black as such, so you could NOT just go and USE say Mass Produced Contact Lenses, and so you would have to make so many CUSTOM Ones so YES that would likely be more than Few Hundred $$$ but again i am NOT sure it would have been a Massive Budget Drain. And you could Gloss Over the Eyes with CGI.
So to have them Appear as they did does seem more Plausible as a Reason to that is HOW they are intended. It does UPLIFT the PLOT about Genetic Engineering/Perfecting and Sub-Creation. (in Regards to HOW the Prometheus Engineers looked).
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think another Interesting Revelation with the Planet 4 Engineers was there are FEMALES, and from Davids Notes there are INFANTS and Children and we see the Males and Females and Children have NIPPLES.
The Sacrificial Engineer had NO NIPPLES... this could Indicate some kind of Clone or Artificial Incubation. It would have been better had the Engineer also had NO NAVEL. But what this could indicate is those Engineers had some kind of Umbilical Cord attached to them during their Incubation.
Not seeing any Females left us Questions with Prometheus, and when we look at what Spaights Pitch then he indicated the Engineers were NOT that much Different to us but had Engineered/Evolved themselves and Abandoned Normal Sexual Procreation to the POINT that this was Eventually LOST.
But after Prometheus we had RS go and say the Engineers could PROCREATE but they Choose to NOT do so, not in the Sexual Way anyway. So when we see the Planet 4 Engineers and then that could make us QUESTION as to WHY would they SEED the Worlds like we saw in the Prometheus Prologue?
The Reasons behind this are something that could have Changed over time, and be Interpreted Different with what we saw in Alien Covenant. To me the OPENING SCENE looked like a World that would have BASIC Microbial Life.
The Sacrifice with the Bio-Former Agent was just a Efficient Way to allow the Engineers DNA to become the CATALYST to Start Advanced Biological Life. (Caused Single Cell Life to become Multicellular) The Engineers would return every so often to FURTHER go and EVOLVE their Creations, i would Suspect the Process was NOT so much the same but SIMILAR to what David was doing, but just NOT using the DNA of Horrors connected to the Deacon/Xenomorph.
I think LV-223 made more Sense as a Place the Engineers would take Life to and then Experiment/Evolve them and WHEN they are Pleased they take these Life-Forms back to the Worlds they are Evolving
This makes more sense when we see the Bio-Former/Pathogen as in the Scarabs from Spaights Draft (Prometheus Goo seemed Basically the same).
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
If you want to make an authentic finish to A L I E N and P R O ME T H E U S.
There are only three matters you need to consider.
1) Why were the Face Huggers designed to incubate in a host.
2) Why did the Engineers incubate their creations. (The Birth of the Deacon at the end nailed what was hinted at it in the fresco.)
3) If the Gift was so important why not allow it to be the beginning of all in the traditional way.
The Gift retconned the entire story and in a magnificent way.
This is essentially a story about planned creation which begins with the Gift and ends with David and how those layers react to each other and what can go wrong. "The Even More Modern Prometheus."
For two people chocking on hubris to come into that tale Weyland and Elizabeth was just perfect.
I think a lot does depend on what is the GIFT with in Context to Prometheus Mythos the Gift was the Fire of the Gods, as Weyland had put it "Our First Piece of Technology" as without the Discovery of HOW to came Fire then who knows where Mankind would be NOW, our Mastery of his with HOW we could PASS ON KNOWLEDGE is what likely allowed us to Survive while (our Superior Intellect and Ability to Pass On and Retain Knowledge gave us the Advantage to Create more Diverse Tools and make use of Resources) But INDEED it was FIRE that was a BIG PART especially with the Climate Changing to COLD.
And so Technology/Tools and Knowledge are Important in Context, and it with a Number of the Prometheus Mythos then it was HE who had Taught us Many Things, and maybe TOO MUCH. But the CORE Part of the Story was the THEFT of FIRE from the Gods.
So maybe we have to look at what is the FIRE/GIFT in Context to the Franchise and it seems the Creation Tool (Goo) is that FIRE. But if we look at it like that then this GIFT was never really STOLEN and given to Humans.
So the ONLY way maybe it can Relate is that Mankind was Created by this STOLEN GIFT when our Creators were NOT permitted to do so? But this could also apply to a Fraction of Engineers using the GIFT to EVOLVE themselves.
Or maybe Create something that was Forbidden by their Creators, the Experiments on LV-223 being a WAY to use the GIFT that was NEVER its intended Purpose.
The FRESCO to me reminds me of the Punishment of Prometheus. But as with many things in Prometheus they are OPEN to Interpretation.
Spaights and Ridley Scott had indicated that the Horrors they were Creating were Created in Response to the Problem, Behavior and Threat of MANKIND and so if we had NOT gone and Displeased or Concerned them then maybe these Horrors would NEVER had Happened?
There is a LOT of Ambiguity with Prometheus, i think we could have HOPED for some Answers in a Sequel but we NEVER really got much more of a Explanation.
I am Drawn to looking at David and the LV-223 Engineers being SIMILAR and so maybe those Engineers had been PLAYING WITH THE FIRE and Creating Horrors, more or less the SAME as what David was doing by Trying to Create something Perfect through the Potential that the Organism/DNA that the Deacon had. Rather than just attempting to USE the Human/Engineer DNA.
The Humans/Engineers needing to be HOST to these Horrors.... if the LV-223 Engineers could NOT go and Procreate like the Planet 4 Engineers and see themselves as Superior to the Planet 4 Engineers, then their Interest in the Horrors we saw on LV-223/Black Goo could be a way for them to TRY and allow themselves to GIVE BIRTH and Procreate something they DEEM as the Next Stage of Evolution.
I think with regards to Promethean Tale its about PLAYING GOD has Dire Consequences.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
“What Constitutes Creation?, a SOUL and Immortality.”
Those things are interesting but they could be difficult to handle in the alien-franchise. I don't say that these are impossible questions to handle in the franchise but it could be tricky to do them justice. Maybe it ca be done but I don't think that making it about an android is the way to go.
“I think the Space Jockey should Eventually be revealed to be a Engineer or the Race who are ABOVE the Engineers.”
Yeah, you can hint at it but don't explain it. Many people have had that image in their heads for a long time about what could have happened so no matter what you put in there to explain it, it will probably not improve in quality what people have imagined it to be. It can be done but it must be of a very good quality both visually and the writing so it's almost impossible. Those things that you mention make sense judging from what we have seen this far.
“But i SUSPECT that it would be a Creation of David…”
If Scott would have been allowed to interfere with the writing but you could also demand from him that he stays away from it. Disney could tell him to stay away from the story and handle the visuals, that would probably be for the better because it didn't work under Fox. Let David have a minor role in the third prequel to in a way make up for Prometheus and Covenant.
Either sacrifice themselves or improve themselves could work. I’m still interested in how they got from those on Planet 4 (Covenant) to those in Prometheus. What explains the differences? Those things could be hinted at in a movie but I doubt that we'll see that. Remember the tank that Luke was in after he got beat up by the Wampa? Maybe the engineers used something like that to create the bigger ones like a liquid steroid-bath. Perhaps this could make sense if those were made to secure the Engineer civilization and they took great pride in it so it wasn't made by force. There are many possibilities to choose from if they would try to explain that but I doubt that they will do so.
“... maybe they are a Creation of someone else?”
That's interesting, but you got to explain it in a way that's interesting and makes sense.
“RS had indicated they END RESULT was intended…”
Yeah but it still wasn’t that good plus I wanted to see more of the Engineers in the movie. They could at least have shown the Engineers a bit longer instead of having it all about David even though it would just have been for some scenes.
“It does UPLIFT the PLOT about Genetic Engineering/Perfecting and Sub-Creation. (in Regards to HOW the Prometheus Engineers looked).”
Which is fine but I just wish that those in Alien Covenant would have looked more Alien. They looked too much like human beings even though you try to tie them to human history. I’m not sure how you could have made it better, maybe by make them look bigger and in some way give them enough differences compared to the one in Prometheus while still make them look more Alien instead of peasants from the 15th century.
“Abandoned Normal Sexual Procreation to the POINT that this was Eventually LOST.”
Cloning or something similar to ensure the survival of the species? They know that they are about to end so they clone themselves as younger versions so they still have time to live and when the clones are about to die they make new clones so there will still be Engineers around. Some people might find this to be a lame explanation but if they can make it the natural way and still want to exist then they must come up with something else.
LV-223 seems to have been a huge Engineer lab. If you listen to what Janek says then this could have been a possibility. Maybe it was used for other things than what we saw in Prometheus? The role of the planet could be expanded on and also add to the story about the Engineers. Go back to the Engineers and expand the franchise
“I think with regards to Promethean Tale its about PLAYING GOD has Dire Consequences.”
Which is an interesting thing, I just wish that it would have been better executed.
"Maybe it ca be done but I don't think that making it about an android is the way to go."
I think what RS was getting us to look at is that a Sentient Synthetic Life-form who can Think and have Emotions and Desires/Ambition like a Human would they be DIFFERENT to us? And to show that IF the Spirit is our Personality, Desires, Dreams and Emotions that would EXIST after Death and Beyond the BODY then maybe NO we have NO SOUL but Actually YES then David does have such a SOUL.
But i think for a LOT of the Fans they wanted to Explore more about the Engineers and WHAT ELSE they Create and HOW had Created them etc... to see other WORLDS and other Species etc.
I also agree that the Space Jockey should have been and should be a Race that is Connected to the Engineers and maybe even a Race above them, but then a Race they Created could also work. Having sewn the SEEDS that the Xenomorph/Eggs are a Creation/Consequence of David is ONE thing..... to make the Space Jockey likewise would be ANOTHER MISTAKE.
I think the Engineers in Prometheus as a Clone/Genetically Engineered Sub-Creation of the Planet 4 Engineers does FIT with the Themes/Plot.
The Broad Plot is to SHOW that all the Mythos and Religions on Earth that Depicted our Creators were WE are Created in their Image is the RESULT of us Actually indeed being CREATED from THEM (Engineers) so i think it FITS that they look Very Human, they look LESS Human than Numerous Depictions of Gods/Creators in Various Religions/Mythos.
Ridley Scott was trying to SHOW us that WHILE the LV-223 Engineers may look similar to each other, the Planet 4 Engineers have some Diversity in their Appearance. He had gone on to say that the Engineers are NOT a Race but a Civilization, and so its LIKELY they have Mixed in Races DNA that they have Created. He also said that just as Humans can come in Many Sizes and Races then WHY CANT the same be said for the Engineers. So YES it seems they have been made to be more HUMAN.
But this seems to be the Intended Purpose to FIT with the PLOT that is about Knowledge and Technology in Part, its to SHOW us these Engineers are NOT really Gods, they are Merely Humanoids who have the BENEFIT of being around for MANY MANY MANY Years more than us and so their Knowledge and Technology is WHAT makes them more Godlike, i guess if we had Humans from 100 Years Time go back in TIME to see the Neanderthals then we would seem as GODS to them when all we have is in Part a Genetic Advantage but more so Technology and Knowledge.
The Engineers Background has Changed as from Inception it seemed they was a Race like Humans who had Advanced on a Technological Scale and Genetic Evolution (via Genetic Manipulation) that they INCREASED for HOW LONG they can LIVE for, and they Abandoned things like Arts, Music, Entertainment, Sexual Urges and Procreation.... But eventually they became STERILE. With Prometheus then it seems our Engineers were similar to the Concept. But it seems that THEY have decided to make our Engineers more Human, which goes to then HIGHLIGHT that its about Knowledge and Technology that makes a Race become more Advanced/Godlike.
Our Engineers were supposed to be more Statue like, having a Glossy look to their Skin, they was also supposed to be 10-12ft Tall, but when we got to Production they Decided to GO AGAINST the USE of Special Effects to Create a 10ft Race and so we got a Downsized Race of 7-8ft Engineers.
The Prometheus Opening Scene in FULL showed the Engineer also wore those Garments, YET they Possessed Advanced Technology when Needed (Tear Drop Ship) and those on Planet 4 also had Technology/Ships too. It seems they Ritualistically/Culturally do SHUN such Technology apart from where it is Necessary and so they are like say the AMISH people in the USA. They do-not USE their Technology for everything, they seem to not have the Entertainment/Vices of Modern Man but they CHOOSE to LIVE a more Simplistic Ancient Way.
The Main Difference is the appearance, there is LESS of the Defined Bone-structure and Node Ridge and less Glossy/Synthetic looking Skin.
When you look at the Prometheus Engineers Skin etc, they do look like they are NOT made from the same Skin as us, so they have that SYNTHETIC look about them.... so maybe this has Changed from this being because they are GODLIKE to actually NOW being a Sub-Created Species much like David and Replicants are.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
HOW.... do we explore more about the Engineers, what they Create etc but STEER AWAY from David?
Simple.... Answer these Questions
*Are the Engineers ONLY found on LV-223 and Planet 4?
The Answer would seem NO!
*Are Humans on Earth the ONLY Species they have Created/Evolved?
The Answer would seem UNLIKELY!
*How many WORLDS have the Engineers Seeded?
By Virtue of them being shown to have Knowledge of other Galaxies in their Navigation Systems and being around for Millions of Years, then the NUMBER or Worlds they had been Involved in and Species they have Interacted with and Created/Evolves could be VAST!
So you can have a SPIN OFF series of Movies or TV Show, were we are in a FAR PART of the Galaxy (like Caprica from BSG Series) or a Galaxy FAR FAR Away like we had with Star Wars.
Both Franchises had Humans who are NOT from Earth, and both we see they SPEAK ENGLISH (which is UNLIKELY but its for our Convenience) and so WHY cant they go and DO the same with a Engineers Spin Off?
You NEED to have Good Characters and People can Connect more with HUMAN Characters... but in Context to the Engineers Plot then WHY is the Earth the ONLY place the Engineers had watched over Humans?
If say Humans had been Created/Evolved on another WORLD and taken to Earth, then the Chances are the Engineers had taken Humans to other WORLDS which gives more Plausibility to them WILLING to Destroy the Earth and Mankind on our Planet when we have NOT been doing as they Please.
It would be NO LOSS if they had other Worlds with Humans who have been KEPT in Check!
What would have HAPPENED if say Dr Shaw arrived at ONE of these Worlds? And THIS is what i had in Mind for my Prometheus 3.
But i dont think DISNEY will ever do such a thing... i think for them it is about the MONSTER the ALIEN and i Suspect they will be going to IGNORE the Prequels as though they NEVER existed. I think we will see the Engineers but i think they will CHANGE the Plot and Appearance of them.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Yeah, I don't think Disney will touch the Engineers. How are you going to cast them? What Actors are going to want to play tall muscular bald albinos?
I'd rather Elizabeth travel around the galaxy unable to find another living Engineer. Finding nothing but statues and corpses and trying to find out just WHAT killed them.
Your comment about Elizabeth gets to the central point.
Essentially Prometheus provided us with two answers to a mystery and then created another.
We found out that the creature in the chair was a humanoid and the race he belonged to lived on anthrax island and made monsters and they all perished for their trouble.
So the next part was simple who made them and where did they come from.
Ridley thought if he destroyed those on their home planet and made David the creator of the creature which he believed people wanted back was a better outcome than to send Elizabeth on her quest for the adamic question "why why did you hate us and why did you make us."
If you base your analysis on core fandom its pretty clear that the number of creature fans who want their world inhabited by philosophical journeys is small. Equally in my cohort we recognise A L I E N as a superior slasher movie which Ridley tried (and failed) to take into a much broader canvas.
On this I would defend Damon Lindelof because he recognised the risk and said as much before Prometheus was released.
Why half a dozen people continue to discuss this on a forum is because Ridley is great at adverts he teases and he does it very very well. He leaves you room to speculate and discuss as does Lindelof and in the case of Prometheus because there will never be an artistically legitimate follow up (Covenant is a denial of those questions) the void is big.
So to return to your point Elizabeth did begin that journey you describe she just never reached anywhere and certainly good story telling would not have been about her landing on a plaza in down town Paradise and marching up to someone and saying why did you make me and anyway Charlie had already given her the answer?
I always find it fascinating when deep fans say they do not know what was going on in Prometheus.
1) Humanoid Life is created by the sacrifice of a being who imbibes the Genesis Cup, disintegrates, the essence attacks basic DNA strands and turns it into something more sophisticated. This is the perfect back drop to A L I E N where intervention of a different kind leads to a monster. Its about intervened creation.cf Dave the Robot.
2) Millions of years later Weyland in search of more life and Elizabeth in search of God set off to the source of humanity and find their creators do not like them, were engaged in making monsters and would have replaced them with an upgrade if it had not all "gone to pot." Charlie tells the audience the earth is just a Pietrie Dish and Elizabeth asks if these guys made us who made them.
3) At the end of the movie Elizabeth sets of to the Engineers Home world 'or where they came from' a world which had ignored both the facility and the derelict. So obviously head office was no longer interested in pursuing their Promethean renegades.
What would she find? Based on Ridleys remarks in the do***entary:-
1) Mankind was a footnote and of no consequence except of course by turning up it would be.
2) The creature was a grace note.
Elizabeth would have discovered that their is no abrahamic God and David would have found it is not entirely 'because you can.'
What we never got to discover is why the guys on LV223 and the guy in the derelict were just left to rot. Logic would dictate given the name of the movie and that Ridley said the movie was about stolen technology (The Genesis Cup) that they had been naughty and rebelled against the master plan so exquisitely shown in the first few minutes.
Can you make a movie out of that for fans of the creature. NO which maybe is why Damon left and there was the slow move toward Covenant which pleased no one.