Sep-06-2020 10:42 AM
This does, to an extent confirm that the third prequel may be focused more on AI rather than the aliens, which Ridley has said about before. Also, we could possibly see the third film being set around the origins of the derelict ship on LV 426, which will be interesting, a film based entirely around the engineers or other species above them would be a good idea to look at. However, for now it's just wait and see.
Sep-06-2020 10:47 AM
Ridley said before Covenant: "Prometheus was mistake, we're going to take a new direction with the Covenant. This will be the beginning of a new trilogy."
Despite the fact that he wanted a trilogy with Prometheus.
Not so long ago, Scott spoke about the continuation of the Covenant and he said that the new film will once again be the beginning of a new trilogy.
Thus, we have the same scheme:
1) Declaring an old movie a mistake.
2) Reflections on a new direction.
3) Announcement of a new film and a new trilogy.
BigDave often says: how long can you repeat the same plot moves and show the same beast?
But I guess the only important question is: how long can you give up the sequel to the previous film and try to start from scratch?
Sep-06-2020 10:49 AM
I do not know where he really wants to go with this advance, before yesterday
I saw the last two chapters 2 and 3 raised by wolves and again they have
not learned from Covenant's mistakes falling back into the same mistakes,
I cannot give any details due to spoilers. Thank you
Sep-07-2020 2:18 AM
He can kind of say anything but it will be what Disney decides what to do. Not interested in a robot anything and people making stupid decisions type of movie. You think he would learn. Also, I'm not sure this is him talking or Disney giving the OK. Unfortunately I tend to believe the latter. If Disney was smart a fresh perspective and direction.
Sep-07-2020 2:57 AM
Scott says a lot so it could be what ever. To me it seems that he isn't interested in the monster, it was obvios in Covenant. I don't care about the David story, I would rather see it thrown away because making it about a robot is boring no matter what kind of themes that you try to bring up. Raised By Wolves seems to have the same problems as AC namely too much about the robots and crappy human characters.
The Engineers seem interesting but if they try to make it about David again they still don't see why people weren't that excited about the prequels. Make a movie about AI if you want but keep it away from the Alien-franchise. Look at the decline from Prometheus to Covenant in profits, if they don't understand that many are not interested in a focus on a crazy robot it seems that they will make the same mistake again and ignore human characters which would mean another crappy alien movie. He can make his android movies if he wants but don't keep them in the alien franchise.
You can show variations of the monster and make it better tied to the Engineers. Don't make David the creator of it because that sucks. There is still room to show that David just made his lesser version, at least it would be better. To me it seems that it is Scott that is out of steam since he only cares about David and that gives us more disappointments in the franchise so it was better before he came back.
"Has the Alien himself, the facehugger, the chestburster, have they all run out of steam? Do you have to rethink the whole bloody thing and simply use the word to franchise?"
Try to expand the franchise isn't a bad idea, I mentioned some routes at the message board that they could take. You don't need to have the monsters in a lot of scenes since there are other ways to build tension. Alien 1 and 3 didn’t feature the monsters that much. What was scary in 1 and 3 is that they were abandoned and left on their own to fight a threat that they were ill-equipped to handle. Of course the Alien looks good but that isn't really why the movies are scary, it depends on the human characters and how they build tension. No, your android-crap has run out of steam.
Even though new things might be interesting I refuse to let the franchise be taken over by the robots just because that is the only thing that he cares about. Covenant became to a big extent mediocre at best because he only cared about David and Walter. Faris and Oram were alright, I wonder if that was luck though.
He should leave the franchise if he doesn't want to stop his AI take-over of it. Not to say that he is on some conspiracy trip but I don't watch it for AI/robots. Artificial things can be robots, computer-programs but what we have seen this far on that theme in the franchise is it being taken over by robots and that is so boring. No more David movies, to make the story about robots is trash even though he likes it. Sorry to those that find the robot thing interesting, this is not an insult to you personally this is just my opinion in case someone is taking offense. Prometheus and Covenant failed in a way and they were to a big extent based on Scott's ideas.
I'm not willing to give a third one a try if he's involved in the writing by giving crappy ideas. To have him involved in any way they need to:
1.Leave the writing to someone that understands the human part. Scott might be good with visuals but he doesn't seem to be a writer and should therefore stay away from the story. No one is good at everything
2.Have it less about androids, really. He only cares about David but Covenant ruined it because it was too much about him even though the differences between him and Walter were interesting. In the end of Covenant he was a space-Hitler and I am not interested in watching that especially if the protagonists are poorly written like they have been this far.
3.Bring us more about the Engineers
Sep-07-2020 3:01 AM
Roger G: So he continues with the androids and thin human characters but in something else? That sounds boring, I won't bother with RBW just throw it away. I think that he should be a producer at best, keep him far away from the story.
Sep-07-2020 7:03 AM
"But I guess the only important question is: how long can you give up the sequel to the previous film and try to start from scratch?"
I think this is RS just concluding that Disney have NO real Interest in any Continuation, i think we have to Remember that OTHER factors do Influence Changes to a Movie.
It seems that he is AWARE that Disney are in the Progress of Planning another Alien Movie, but i get the Impression that he is NOT that aware of the Direction but he seems to be sure it WILL-NOT be a Continuation of anything the Prequels had been trying.
Reading into his Comment it seems like Disney are not to KEEN on Change and so we would LIKELY see a Movie that gives us the same Formula we had in the Franchise and so Maybe? its back to Vanilla Morphs.
"To me it seems that it is Scott that is out of steam since he only cares about David"
Well i think what he was showing us was the THEMES at play about Sub-Creating something that becomes Sentient and NOT Happy with its ROLE as Intended by their Creator and so we have Rebellion and Sub-Creation repeated and so with David he is being USED as the Proxy to Retell maybe what those LV-223 Engineers had become.
If the Story was to have Continued i suspect we would see a Repeat of the Theme to another Layer after maybe David would Re-Engineer those Embryo's to make Humans MK2
I think the Engineers should have been something to have LOOKED into more and WHAT ELSE they Created.
I think back in 2010 they had Intended to make a Prequel that would SET-UP a way to Explore more about the Engineers and STEER AWAY from ALIEN.
The Problem is some Fans are maybe NOT open to having a Expanded Universe about the Engineers/Space Jockey that would be a SPIN OFF and NOT a Directly Connected Franchise to the Xenomorph.
Prometheus just NEVER acted as much of a Bridge to ALIEN it never gave any Real Answers or Closure and so what we had was a Sequel that they then decided to Give those Answers and Bring the Xenomorph back but in a WAY that surely they should have known would RUFFLE some Feathers...
I think the PLOT was just to BOLD for those Fans who would like Aliens and Alien R and AVP etc..... while it was NOT really ALIEN enough for those who always Wondered about the Space Jockey.
Its a Shame as they could have FIXED this by NOT have given us Alien Covenant... but a 2nd Mission to Prometheus with another Android like David... say Walter.
He could have Finally Met his Maker when they Discover the Body of Weyland...
This could have given us a Movie that was more like Alien Engineers, where we would get PLENTY of Clues to the Xenomorph Origins and LV-426 and then ALLOWED for the Door to ALIEN to be Shut.
Then they could have gone to do a Franchise Spin Off to where David and Dr Shaw are going and IF its not about Xenomorphs and what some Fans wanna go see then its TOUGH! ;) They would have their Answers and their Alien Franchise.
The Door would always be OPEN to do other ALIEN Movies in Future that a Mission to LV-223 would have UPLIFTED the Potential to introduce the Xenomorph and Horrors away from LV-426
Sep-07-2020 7:05 AM
I am going to ASSUME that the Project that is being worked on is the David Giler and Walter Hill version of ALIEN V
I am Concerned they have RAN OUT of ideas and think that you HAVE to bring back RIPLEY to Save the Franchise.
Sep-07-2020 7:44 AM
"but a 2nd Mission to Prometheus"
I meant LV-223
"in Space No One Can Hear you Dream"
The Tagline for Alien V is a Convenient way to just IGNORE the Prequels and any other Movie in the Franchise they want to just REMOVE from Canon.
Maybe Disney give us a TRUE ORIGINS STORY!
Sep-07-2020 8:32 AM
Good film > cannon.
If it will be a good film, then I'm more than sure - no one will care about the canon continuity.
The main reason for the retсon is even not Alien 3. But Alien Resurrection.
Of course, you can keep all films in canon continuity. You can. But the very idea that the "possible" Alien 5 will be a sequel/prequel/whatever of AR or be located in the same universe/timeline with such an abomination - depressing.
Just imagine - Alien 5 would be a good, even great, and more than that - a gorgeous film! With a good sequels. But ... yes. To get into this film you will need to complete AR (plus Alien3 for some people, but I excluded it from the equation). Yes. Not inspiring anymore, is it?
Something like that:
- Hey, you heard?! A new Alien film is on the way! There will be engineers, androids, marines, aliens, queens! We will go to the alien homeworld with Giger aesthetics!
- WOW! Sounds cool!
- Yeah, but it will a direct sequel to Alien Resurection...
- Oh, I'm pass!
Sometimes to create, one must first destroy.
The cost of progress must be absolute.
Sep-07-2020 8:40 AM
Geebuz... AVP galaxy cites the same thing saying that "Sir Ridley Scott Confirms He Is Still Developing Next Alien Prequel"
Which one should I believe??!?
Sep-07-2020 1:57 PM
I think thats a Interesting Point you make IgnorantGuy
Going Directly to the Source
The most recent installment was 2017’s Covenant, but Scott’s confirmed another film is still in the works.
"That’s in process. We went down a route to try and reinvent the wheel with Prometheus and Covenant,” he enthused. “Whether or not we go directly back to that is doubtful because Prometheus woke it up very well. But you know, you’re asking fundamental questions like, ‘Has the Alien himself, the facehugger, the chestburster, have they all run out of steam? Do you have to rethink the whole bloody thing and simply use the word to franchise?’ That’s always the fundamental question.”
What i get from this is he Acknowledges that a Movie is the Process and so Disney are going to make another Franchise Movie. He goes on to suggest that they tried to do something Different with the Prequels, it seems he feels they had Shook the Franchise up by the Path of the Prequels (they was NOT going to Revolve around what you Typically would Associate the Franchise with). So he was asking IF the Xenomorph had been Done Enough and it was TIME to try something Different and so it seems he was thinking about IF you tried something Different (Expansion) but it lacked to be about the Xenomorph can you WARRANT sticking a ALIEN: Prefix.
We have to remember before this Latest Interview we LAST saw Ridley Scott take more Interest in the ARC of the Prequels and we would go on to Finish the WHO would Create such a Thing and then he Mentioned that you have Evolve the Beast, Change it it. He had in a Few Interviews prior also said we are in the PROCESS... of getting to ALIEN and so what we have seen with AC as far as the Protomorph is something that will EVOLVE to get to what we have in ALIEN.
He also said after the Disappointment of AC that he FELT he was ahead of the CURVE with Prometheus.
So we have to PUT it all into Perspective....
Ridley Scott had FELT with Prometheus that this was a Attempt to Explore the Engineers and Creation etc, where you could GIVE the Answers to WHO the Space Jockey Race was and you DID-NOT have to Answer the Mystery about LV-426 or even have XENOMORPHS to expand the ALIEN Franchise.
Decisions were made to give a Sequel that WOULD go and START to Answer the WHO/WHY/WHEN/HOW the Xenomorph came to be, where they Re-Invented the Notion of WHO and to CHANGE it from the Space Jockey/Engineers and make it about David.
They Started to TINKER with the Xenomorph a little, the Aesthetic was more Organic, the Chest Buster was Different but this would all be a WORK IN PROGRESS.
In LIGHT of Alien Covenant.... what RS seems to be suggesting is that MAYBE for the Future of the Franchise then the Direction and Changes that was MADE in regards to the Xenomorph, its Role, Creation and Aesthetic in the Prequels was maybe STEERING to FAR from what people are USED to seeing.
So he seems to me to be Indicating that the Re-Inventing the Wheel was maybe something that HAS NOT worked as far as to PLEASE the Fans. Or Certainly that the Prequels kind of Deviated a bit TOO FAR from the ALIEN Franchise.
I think he is Acknowledging that you cant have a ALIEN MOVIE and Change the Formula too much. So he had TRIED something Different and that MAYBE it had NOT worked out as far as Interest.
So Disney would be looking at HOW do you make another Movie about the Xenomorph but then CARRY ON with the Revelation and Arc of the Prequels. And so it seems RS feels that maybe any NEW MOVIE may IGNORE the Prequels.
So as far as AVPGalaxy goes UNLESS they have some Inside Scoop! Then its just their Interpretation that because RS had said.. "Whether or not we go directly back to that is doubtful" that this means they are going to do a Prequel but just MAYBE NOT Carry on with what RS had Started... now come on that makes LITTLE SENSE!
As FAR as so HOW MUCH of the Prequels they TOSS OUT if we going for a Prequel again?
Where as i read into it as that they are doing a ALIEN Movie that WILL-NOT be a Prequel and RS does-not know if the NEW MOVIE will Acknowledge what the Prequels had done or IGNORE them.
And so i think the Project in the Process will be THIS ONE.
Sep-07-2020 2:12 PM
I think it DEPEND on HOW in touch with the Fans and the Reaction to the Prequels that DISNEY will be.
Some Interviews with RS he seemed to think that THEY had given us the Xenomorph and YET it still NEVER did too Good, which is WHY he said he was ahead of the Curve with Prometheus as in it seems he FELT that you did-not have to bring the Xenomorph back.
Lets Face It..... Prometheus did-not give some Fans what they maybe Expected, but Disappointments over the Space Jockey, over the LACK of Answers to ALIEN and NO real Monsters where ONLY a Part of the Problem... Alien Covenant also had NOT the best Characters etc.
I think they have to GO BACK to prior to the Prequels.... and that at this TIME the Very Notion that the Xenomorph and Space Jockey had NOT been on LV-426 for a Very Long Time, and NEVER-MIND that the Space Jockey were 8ft Humanoids... but the BIG ONE is that NO ONE would have Envisioned that the Xenomorph was a Creation by a Synthetic with some Daddy Issues.
I think some Fans may have felt the Engineers where a Little Underwhelming, while some would have liked to see more about the ENGINEERS.... just maybe not all the GODS stuff... and so when we saw the Planet 4 World and Engineers i think that MOST of the Fans had Expected to see more Bio-Mechanical World and City and our Engineers to be more like from Prometheus.
I think that prior to Alien Covenant then a LOT of Fans maybe would have liked to had seen the Space Jockey be a Separate Species to the Engineers.
So IF we get another ALIEN MOVIE then i think you have to ask those Questions that RS had mentioned. "Has the Alien himself, the facehugger, the chestburster, have they all run out of steam? Do you have to rethink the whole bloody thing"
Because if we get Queen, Eggs, Face Hugger, Chest Buster and Big Guy then its a case of HOW MANY more Times can you keep doing that without GIVING some Background Purpose to the Xenomorph, or Evolve it.
Or to go BACK to introduce the Engineers/Space Jockey at some Point?
Or do they REINVENT all of that?
Sep-07-2020 2:40 PM
"Is it possible that Scott is in fact talking about doing a Prometheus again and going Alien-less in next sequel, but existing within the same universe? While taking part in press junket’s for Alien: Covenant, Scott had talked about the Engineers returning to the aftermath of what David had done to their people. How would you feel about a new film returning without the actual Aliens, but instead focusing on the Engineers?"
This is what AVPGalaxy had said.....
I can maybe see a Little WHY they think this could be the case " ‘Has the Alien himself, the facehugger, the chestburster, have they all run out of steam? Do you have to rethink the whole bloody thing and simply use the word to franchise?’ That’s always the fundamental question"
So they (AVPGalaxy) are looking at RS saying that maybe the Xenomorph has RAN out of Steam and as RS had said "Do you have to rethink the whole bloody thing" they likely think he means that maybe you have to RETHINK the Prequel Continuation and NOT give us Xenomorphs/Take us to LV-426 but to do something ELSE.
It may NOT mean NO Xenomorphs it could be to Rethink the Origins Story after the David Arc seemed to be a NO GO with the Fans.
The Problem here is TWO FOLD...
So your going to Follow where David goes NEXT and have the Engineers Rock UP and Want Revenge, but then to NOT include the Xenomorph or come up with something to EXPLAIN that David had NOT created it?
You still have to then think so what does David do in this Movie? Some Fans are NOT a Fan of a Movie that would Revolve much about him and the SOONER you add some ANGRY ENGINEERS to the MIX its HOW LONG does David last and then WHAT NEXT?
I think we NEED to look at WHY the Engineers go to all the Effort to Create Mankind and then also to Create the Horrors on LV-223 so they must be IMPRESSED with Creation and Pushing the Boundaries of WHAT they can CREATE.
So when they come across a Walter/David and Realize that their Creations (Mankind) have Created a Superior Creation (Synthetics) than they had (Mankind).
Then they see THIS very Creation of Mankind has gone and Created something that Surpasses what they had DONE with the Deacon.
MAYBE these Engineers could see the POTENTIAL in what David had done, and HOW it is that Mankinds Creation (Synthetics) are not Biological and maybe they could see the Potential of Synthetic and Xenomorph (Davids) and go about to make a AMALGAMATION of them.
So what we have is DAVID has merely been the Middle Man, he takes the Engineers Secrets and Surpasses the Deacon/Neomorph....... they become Impressed and they Re-Engineer his Protomorph to become the BIO-MECHANICAL FIEND from ALIEN
At some POINT with their Evolved Xenomorph they had Re-Engineered they LOAD them up to UNLEASH on Earth and.......
WE ALL KNOW HOW THAT ENDED ;)
Sep-07-2020 4:06 PM
Answering to your question about RBW... Have you seen the painting hanging
on the wall on episode 2?
There are many subliminal messages on the story, but if you do not
assemble them correctly, you are breaking the DNA of the story.
I do not know if you have already seen the first 3 Episodes,
I am not criticizing the Androids, Mother at least is very scary character, I m
blamming again CGI in terms of design, of course, Aliens or bugs... (Spoiler)
Sep-07-2020 4:43 PM
BD did you see this quote by RS himself, where he indirectly admits to the commercial failures of his ideas climatically on the big screen with the movies Prometheus and Alien Covenant.
Here is the RS quote....."
In a new interview with Forbes, Scott teased the future of the franchise, and said that a new film, while in the works, isn’t likely to revisit the worlds set up by 2012’s “Prometheus” and 2017’s “Alien: Covenant.”
“That’s in process. We went down a route to try and reinvent the wheel with ‘Prometheus’ and ‘Covenant,’” he enthused. “Whether or not we go directly back to that is doubtful because ‘Prometheus’ woke it up very well. But you know, you’re asking fundamental questions like, ‘Has the Alien himself, the facehugger, the chestburster, have they all run out of steam? Do you have to rethink the whole bloody thing and simply use the word to franchise?’ That’s always the fundamental question.”
"We went down that rout," and it did not work financially for the most part because if it did we would just keep making more of these films.....this is speculation BD of course; but, how does that make you feel when RS says he may likely be not showing much of many of the things you really wanted to see in the way you wanted to see with the Engineers.
What a loss right....so will this be a show more about AI and synthetics....would that be the new emphasis....with the Engeers being more just derivative plot devices....what he said in that quote is frightening...exciting but also contraversial....he simulaneously saying we did not get it right with two movies back to back and almost a half billion dollars of production money.....he himself is saying we thought we knew what the audience wanted to see but we could not get the movies right.....I do not think he would have said that if he was happy with the way the movies turned out.
How could be happy with to large commercial failures essentially at the box office....
I hope he gets it right this time...and we get a Alien Franchise film that is entertaining....but it looks like it will somewhat related to the Alien franchise and nothing more...Read this part of the quote too....
"have they all run out of steam? Do you have to rethink the whole bloody thing and simply use the word to franchise?’ That’s always the fundamental question.”
BD I think you were right he may be abandoning ship with all it, the Xenos.....maybe most of the Engineers...you right BD I think he is going to in deep with AI plot like he is doing with Wolfs show this is the test market.....and we are just going to get these less evolved teasers of the plot where the Engineers are never really there they are more just props then real characters in the production.
Sep-07-2020 11:14 PM
To me, Ridley Scott says again that the beast and the franchise that only tries to rethink the whole bloody thing, to reinvent the wheel are cooked. He tried to revive it in different ways with Prometheus and Covenant, but the whole thing run out of steam. Could we have a good film in the alien universe without the alien himself, that's the fundamental question.
So nothing is in the works Ridley Scott, for the first time since Covenant, does not have a clue about the next film, most probably there have been talks between Ridley, Hill, Giler and Disney, but where it will go next, that's not yet decided. And Ridley seems a little tired about the subject, his enthusiasm gone. Keep your hopes low and don't expect any alien film soon.
Sep-08-2020 1:26 AM
I think he is going to in deep with AI plot like he is doing with Wolfs show this is the test market....
That remains to be seen (but is an interesting angle) as I have seen a plan for this to be 5 seasons and the 1st season isn't even entirely released. It is hard to imagine 5 seasons of an AI heavy series though.
To the OP, if a movie will be made that won't continue the Prometheus story, and as others have pointed out the cooked beast, that seems to narrow things to androids or possibly WY. The android route can be a great direction but is far away of what the Quadrilogy was about. Frankly, it sounds like a shit show.
Keep your hopes low and don't expect any alien film soon. Agree.
Sep-08-2020 1:58 AM
>>>Could we have a good film in the alien universe without the alien himself, that's the fundamental question.
Nice thought, but I still don't trust binary thinking. There is an Alien or not. If the xenomorph is not needed in the film, then why not leave xeno in the background, but not exclude xeno from the film? Much more important is not what things you use, but how.
Imagining the Alien as a braindead bug jumping into the excavator bucket and then declaring that the beast is cooked, is a cheap and lazy thing to do.
Also, show the ancient and ambitious race of Space Gardeners as naive cavemen living in primitive dolmens.
Of course it will upset people.
But what I do not understand - the City of Engineers was created on a computer using CG. So does it really matter what to draw? The first sketches of Planet 4 were made in the style of Prometheus, but then Ridley wanted to show us a completely uninspiring prehistoric necropolis, instead of a triumphant space technopolis.
Alien can be cooked (no) by previous directors. A directors who never returned to the Space Jockey. But Scott itself destroyed the Engineers. But Scott decided to explore this soil and after the relatively successful introduction of the Engineers in Prometheus, he destroyed everything with his own hands.
Sep-08-2020 2:58 AM
Could we please turn on editing.....so we can go back and correct our spelling mistakes......I hate when I go back read what I posted because I have so many grammar and spelling mistakes!!!!!!!!
I'm a perfectionist!!!!
Sep-08-2020 3:02 AM
OHHHHHHHHHHH GOD @DK
PLEASSSSSSSSSSE let it be Weyland Yutani!!!! PLEASE!!!
WY has so much more to offer and it would be so much more entertaining.......I do not even want a movie any more really I want a WY cable show for like 8 seasons!!!
Bring on the WY TV show!!!! or MOVIE!!!!! I AM DOWN FOR THAT!
Sep-08-2020 3:20 AM
BlackAnt The WY angle could be a new way to go while tapping into the other franchise aspects while staying mysterious , scary and kind of creepy imo.
I have been pushing streaming shows for a long time. RBW is finally doing it in its own fashion. There could be a WY series, a Xeno heavy series- things that can go deep and appeal to fans who dig those aspects of the franchise. Something for everybody (as DEVO once said) and we could all check everything out and we might like it. Personally I am down with a series over a movie these days.
Sep-08-2020 3:53 AM
"because ‘Prometheus’ woke it up very well"
I think a lot Depends on what he meant by this Comment, it could be that by WOKE he may have Felt that the Xenomorph Formula of ALIEN Franchise had been done to Death and so with Prometheus by Exploring the Engineers, they had Awoken a Sleeping Giant if you would. As in while the Xenomorph had been done a LOT, with the Prequels they had AWOKEN other Aspects of ALIEN as in The Space Jockey, and also the Question of HOW/WHY would someone Create the Xenomorph.
"Do you have to rethink the whole bloody thing and simply use the word to franchise?’"
By this i think what he is Suggesting here is that the ALIEN Franchise does-not and should-not be Synonymous with the Xenomorph alone.
However when i READ this part. "Whether or not we go directly back to that is doubtful" Then to me it seems that he Feels that DISNEY would NOT be Interested in what Prometheus was Setting Up, and all the Themes that Carried over to Alien Covenant (say if we removed the Xenomorph and it was something different).
So i think this means that THEY are in the Progress of a NEW MOVIE but its likely to be to place Emphasis back on what People was Familiar with in regards to the ALIEN Franchise rather than trying to Reinvent anything.
That means Xenomorphs to me... but maybe you can Evolve/Change or Uplift them Beyond a Invasive Egg Laying Species....
The other THING that Fans are Familiar with.....Ripley.... but i dont think you NEED to have her to make another ALIEN Movie.
"I do not think he would have said that if he was happy with the way the movies turned out."
I think that he FELT that you had seen the Xenomorph over and over, and that the Space Jockey Race was something that was NEVER done... and at a Point (Lindeloff) they felt you could Explore the Space Jockey and NOT have to give us Xenomorphs or Direct Answer to LV-426.
I think he was Pleased with the Direction... but seems FOX felt they Needed to bring back the Xenomorph and so Covenant was BORN. I get the Impression that he Felt the Themes of Prometheus the Creation Arc was the WAY to go, but i think he has Concluded that these Ideas and Especially to Carry them on via David has NOT gone down well with the Public.
"How could be happy with to large commercial failures essentially at the box office...."
I would say that Prometheus was NOT a Failure it did as Good a Return as other Movies prior. But INDEED with Alien Covenant that was a Disappointment Financially.
With DISNEY when something becomes a Disappointment they ABANDON IT.... with Star Wars the Poor Results for SOLO has lead them to NOT take the Risk with more Spin Off Movies. So any NEW Star Wars will likely be a Prequel Trilogy to EP1 that is NOT a Skywalker Story.
And so with ALIEN i think Disney will go back to PLAY IT SAFE and we will get a Xenomorph Movie with more Chance of seeing Ripley than a David.
"you right BD I think he is going to in deep with AI plot like he is doing with Wolfs show"
Well if that was the CASE then Disney would wait and see how the Show Does but it does-not look to be too Greatly Received.
The Bottom Line is that DISNEY are the Owners of the Franchise and they would want to maybe take a PUNT with a Movie that is SET in the Franchise.... but they will want to make MONEY! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
And so they will LIKELY not Carry on with what Prometheus had done because they KNOW the Prequels had Split the Fanbase as NOT MANY had Enjoyed them Overall when you Combine them and the SET-UP.
Prometheus was a Prequel.... some Fans had expected that a Prequel means.... Xenomorph Origins and the 15ft Space Jockey.
And so this is not a Prediction its a SPOILER
I think what we shall see is the Dream within a Dream PLOT as this ALIEN V can then Contingently go and Remove some Movies like Alien 3 and Alien R and the Prequels.
We then have ALIEN maybe ALIENS but we definitely will get Xenomorphs...... but then i think either NEXT or a ALIEN 6... we will either GO TO the Xenomorph Home-world or we shall see the Space Jockey that will be Reinvented (WAIT AND SEE).
Sep-08-2020 4:26 AM
"ALIEN V can then Contingently go and Remove some Movies"
Ha Ha i meant CONVENIENTLY (auto-spell)
"won't continue the Prometheus story, and as others have pointed out the cooked beast, that seems to narrow things to androids or possibly WY"
I think MAYBE..... now i think DISNEY know the Xenomorph is Synonymous with the Franchise... AC did not do well... RS had indicated he was ahead of the Curve with Prometheus so thats him saying that Bringing the Xenomorph Origins and Beast Back was NOT the way to go.
But it was more so that the Emphasis of the ARC and Themes were on David and the David as the Creator is what had UPSET a lot of Fans who would have rather seen the LV-223 Engineers play a ROLE and show us HOW they Came across the Xenomorph.
And so DK you and SuperAlien had indicated to a degree about a ALIEN Movie that has NO Xenomorph and about the W-Y and A.I...............................MAYBE!
And here is maybe WHY, the ONLY thing that seems somewhat Legit and Connected was the Brandywine Leak
Their (Walter Hill, David Giler) Contribution to the Franchise was the Company Conspiracy and Agenda... Special Order 937 and the A.I Synthetic Ash.
They did make their OWN Version of ALIEN Draft where the Xenomorph was a Creation by the Company and the SOS was a Trap to Lure some Humans in to TEST their Bio-Weapon.
So if the ALIEN Project thats in Process is the Walter Hill and David Giler, Project ALIEN V then maybe they could THROW a Curve-Ball that could be even more Divisive than the David the Creator Plot?
I think the POSITIVE to take from this is that DISNEY are going to do a ALIEN MOVIE.... but HOW this works out is a Matter of Time.
2022 Release would be IDEAL as thats 100 Years before the events of ALIEN ;)
I know some Found the Engineers in AC a bit Uninspired.
We seem to FORGET the Big Part of the Engineers was Space Gardeners and those who came to Earth to Teach us what we knew and so our Buildings and Architecture would have been Inspired by them. So we have to ASK why had Ancient Mankind not had Bio-Mechanical Buildings?
And so the Engineers seem to live like how Buddhist Monks do or the Amish people. Their Ways, Culture and Religion is whats MOST Important and so they Shun Technology apart from a Few Essential Areas.
So the Engineers use of Technology would be Restricted to the Purpose of Exploring Space to SEED and DESTROY the Worlds they wish to Influence.
But i dont think there was the Balance... i felt Planet 4 needed a Little more of that Aesthetic of the Juggernauts.
Planet 4 had Technology where it was Needed... and we had NOT gone and Explored inside the other Buildings
I think we never saw much of the Cathedral either (not a lot was Explored), but i think that WE would have expected some Ancient Aesthetic on the Outside but inside to see more like this.
So YES i agree that to NOT have seen a Little of this in AC was a Disappointment ;)
Sep-08-2020 4:26 AM
Cute pic!! lol
'In Space No One Can Hear You Dream'...
Soooo...they're gonna pull a 'Dallas' with a left-turn through 'Lost' country.
I am going to beat Giler and Hill and get some works finished up quicker than planned.
ORIGINS is coming along very well as is
A L I E N: Manticore 'Out Of The Silent Dark', the sequel to my first book-length work. There will be a short-story tie-in with this sequel as well so new audience members and current audience members can get to know the crew better when they're not stressed-out and trying not to end up on the Natural Selection hit-list.
ORIGINS is about 'where did The Alien come from? Why did the Juggernaut on LV-426 have a hold full of egg-pods? Those of you who have read A L I E N: Manticore already know what my take on The Space Jockey is...and ORIGINS will address that Being's story as well.
I express my displeasure with the mess that our beloved franchise universe has become by way of fighting back with the best stories I can write.
The future of this universe is in the perview and hands of the Fandom, we all know how to do much better work than what we've been seeing.
Now, just need to get the Fostering/Adoption service for all those at-risk eggs and facehuggers running around...
Any volunteers? :D
On the bright side, Kathleen Kennedy is gone from Star Wars, and that dreaded tv series of Leslye Headland's doing is trash-canned.
Sep-08-2020 5:38 AM
I think Certainly when we thought about this after 2012 we may have be Drawn to Certain Conclusions. Not Many would have Fathomed it Boiled down to David ;)
Nevermind what our Imaginations had Thought of PRIOR to the Prequels.
ALAS it should have been LEFT a Mystery and David should have Created something a bit Similar but NOT as close as his Xenomorph was... and so via watching HOW it was that David had Created something a Little more Different, we could have had more Clues to maybe HOW the Original came about.
When looking at the Prequels the Premise was Creation
When we got to Alien Covenant the Emphasis was too much on the Layers that are UNDER Mankind and NOT what is Parallel or WHAT lies ABOVE the Engineers. Or indeed the Origins to the Deacon.
Instead the Xenomorph Origins were Indicated to us as the NEXT Layer of the Cake down from and by the Synthetics (David)
I think the BOAT was missed by looking at either or BOTH of so WHO Created the Engineers, and/or WHAT is the Roots to the DNA of the Deacon, Neomorph and Ultimately the Xenomorph.
I felt that the STARBEAST could have been the Answer to Explore.
Also this MURAL had always Intrigued me.
Sep-08-2020 10:01 AM
For me, I wish 'Prometheus' was continued (and the cut scenes were put in place to help clarify some stupid character decisions). In other words, Shaw and David go to the Engineer home world to discover their tech and see the aftermath of an outbreak there. Instead, we got 'Alien: Covenant', which felt like a movie that had no interest, care or enthusiasm behind it.
Sep-09-2020 5:07 AM
Indeed it seemed that a Prometheus 2 could have been Different the SET-UP that RS had given at the Time was that the NEXT Movie (P2) would have STEERED AWAY from the Xenomorph and LV-426. It would have been about where Dr Shaw wanted to go... but also to bare in MIND that without David then Dr Shaw would be Stranded on LV-223 and so RS said she would SLOWLY put him back together, as David is Very Persuasive and that ONCE he was back in One Piece he would be DANGEROUS.
The Interesting Things that RS had claimed about the SET-UP was that THEY did not want to meet GOD in the First Movie (which could mean those Engineers in Prometheus well the Few we saw are NOT at the Top of the Chain of Hierarchy). But we would MEET these beings who are NOT any Gods (Traditional Sense) and who are FAR from Benevolent, he also refers to the Engineers often as the Dark/Fallen Angels. So HOW that stands for Dr Shaw and her Answers, means they LIKELY have NO CARE for what she wants to know.
However.... David is Bringing HELL with him and what Happens when the Black Goo infects a GOD or a MACHINE.
So it was LIKELY that David would UNLEASH the Pathogen on the Engineers, but its a case of HOW MUCH do we see of them and Learn about them before this.
Seems they had TROUBLE working out a Story based on the above, MANY rewrites between 2013-2014 and TWO Writers before the U-Turn in 2015 that lead to become Alien Covenant.
I think HERE is where things went WRONG with the Prequels. (And yes there was Bad Writing and Characters).
1) Some Fans (with Prometheus) may have Expected to have some Answers to the Xenomorph, and we got NONE
* There was enough Clues i felt to Connect the Experiments on LV-223 as either something that Came from the Xenomorph or would lead to the Xenomorph. But it was too VAGUE, it needed a LITTLE more.
* It lacked any Relative Monsters to the Xenomorph apart from the Hammerpede, Trilobite and Deacon and there was SIMPLY not enough Screen Time for such Monsters, most of the KILLING was done by Toxic Avenger Fifield and the Angry Engineer.
* Some were Disappointed of the Differences between the Juggernaught and Derelict, and also that the Engineers were maybe NOT quite what they Expected the Space Jockey to be.
2) When we left Prometheus it had SET-UP some things that Fans would have Expected. That we really NEVER got any Clarity on.
* To Start it would have been Expected that Dr Shaw would be our Anchor/Proxy to the Answers we may get which could be Sinister and Horrific.
* Some Fans would have Expected more about WHY we was Created and then WHY would they want us Destroyed.
* Some Fans would have wanted to KNOW what was going on with LV-223, the Mural/Fresco and WHY and WHAT lead to those Experiments and the Black Goo.
* Most of us would have wanted to SEE more of the Engineers and WHAT is their Current Agenda and Purpose and HAD this Changed in the PAST... if so WHY?
* I think some of us would have been Pondering about the Engineers Origins, and WHAT ELSE they have Created and so HOW MANY such Worlds and Races!
3) The BIG Element of Prometheus and Potential was about Creation, Sub-Creation, Knowledge, Freewill and what Happens when your Creation becomes Sentient and Rebellious or does-not agree with THEIR PLACE in Creation as far as what the CREATOR would Expect.
* David was ALWAYS going to PLAY a Big Role, the Creation Arc and Themes were going to become about HIM, but it would seem we would have seen more about the Engineers and Dr Shaw would have been the Focus for our Answers.
* FOX felt that maybe the Fans would NOT want to know much about (2) and that maybe the Xenomorph Origins and having the Beast Back is WHAT the Franchise Needed.
* So the Creation Arc and Themes would COME to Play a BIG ROLE, only seemed to make way for a incoming Party of Humans, that the Engineers and Dr Shaw as far as Screen Time was Pushed Aside. The Prometheus Themes and Arc was to be Centered around the LAYER of David and WHAT he Creates. And looking more at HIS own Creation and Relation to Mankind rather than Exploring the Layer above Mankind.
* The Xenomorph Origins brought into PLAY as the Ultimate Creation of David. But it seemed the Xenomorph was just the Footnote to Davids more Greater Arc.
It seems that DISNEY are aware of the Disappointment of (3) they cant undo what (2) may have became and also maybe think it would STEER AWAY from the ALIEN Franchise.
They would NOT want to RISK any $$$$$ on Following on with anything from 1-3 and so it would seem its BACK to the ALIEN Franchise and IGNORE the Prequels.
Sep-09-2020 6:01 AM
>>>David was ALWAYS going to PLAY a Big Role, the Creation Arc and Themes were going to become about HIM
It is highly doubtful. David has always turned into a corpse at the end of the Prometheus. While he was lucky enough to stay alive in the final version of the film, his role is to be the support/translator for Shaw.
Every time David started taking on a bigger role, he died. Without any options. It is his destiny - an arrogant creature who admired but underestimated the Engineers and eventually died.
Who know - Maybe Ridley just wanted to stretch this script and finish in a third film? With the same end. In any case - the role of David before the Covenant was support, not the main one.
Sep-09-2020 8:16 AM
"Every time David started taking on a bigger role, he died"
I would argue that we NEVER saw him Die, we only saw him Disabled, we cant be sure HOW LONG he may have Survived as a Head though.
I think its down to Interpretation and Individual Opinion as to WHAT kind of Role that Dr Shaw would have had in the Prequels. Some may have Expected that she was our Replacement of Ripley as the LEAD. They may have saw that David's role was more like Ash/Bishop.
It was Dr Shaw's Personal Journey for Answers... to go and Search for the Truth and have Faith that what she Chooses to Believe will be Solidified.
But i dont see it as being that, She will be the Character that we was Supposed to go on this Journey with to use as our Proxy to Discovering their is NO kind of KIND GOD that her Faith would Preach.
It would be LIKELY she would have been Horrified and Disappointed with what she had Discovered, and this MAY have Changed her Character Arc from Very Naive and with Faith to maybe Anger towards our Creators.
I think that a LOT of the Emphasis was on David if you look at his ARC and the Viral Videos, his Creation was their to show to US that there is INDEED nothing Special About Creation. It would have been more that Dr Shaw was WRONG and Holloway was RIGHT and Weyland was PLAIN FOOLISH.
I think that YES while we would have seen David as Dr Shaws very own Translator. It seemed that he would have her FOOLED and Play Right into his Hands.. I think Amongst the Disappointment of the Answer that Dr Shaw would have with then a Broken Faith. I think the Main Arc would then have gone to Davids Agenda.
The ONLY one who would 100% be able to Tell you would be Ridley Scott, or if we could ask what Lindeloff may have known about the Planned Direction.
Until we get to see one of Jack Paglen's Draft come to Light then we may NEVER be 100% sure as to WHO the Story would have been about. I dont think Dr Shaw had a Happy Ending though ;)
Sep-09-2020 8:25 AM
I will add that is NOT to say i wanted her KILLED OFF...
I was looking Forwards to a Sinister Revelation that Crushes her Faith and DRIVES her to a New Character and i think that Noomi Rappace would have had more Potential with that ARC to show what she really is Capable of as a Actor.
I think she would have gone through a more Traumatic Event, but then seen David as her Savior... but in the END i think he would have then USED her to Accomplish his Agenda to CREATE... Regardless.
The Dr Shaw's Fate we had in Alien Covenant i would think was likely her FATE anyway but we could have at least SHARED a Movie of the Horror she goes through, before some kind of Salvation only to see her LIFE taken by David and his Experiments.
Again i think it would be GREAT to see some of the Earlier Drafts, i did have a Source who CLAIMED to have knowledge of a 2014 Draft which i was informed about in Feb 2015 and Passed on this Site...... and Quite a LOT of the Main Plot Points did appear in Alien Covenant. But somewhat Changed a bit...
David using Dr Shaw to Create something NEW and NOT the Xenomorph however... with AC his Beast was Changed to be the Actual Xenomorph... which well i think was a Mistake.
Sep-09-2020 3:12 PM
Just watched the new Dune trailer...Seemed very 'safe'. didn't see many chances being taken...Looked like something 95 % of Dune fans would have envisioned.
I think this is where the Alien franchise is headed. The safe route.
Marines versus Xenomorphs.
Wonder what big star they could or will entice?
Sep-09-2020 4:38 PM
I would rather see some unknown or lesser known actors so people don't make comparisons to other works. The problem is that it might not rake in the cash unless there is some star power.
Sep-09-2020 5:17 PM
LOVE that 'Starbeast' poster!!
Also, you and everyone else with your statements and comments just reinforce what I said about this franchise truly belonging in the hands of the Fandom.
WE all know it far better than The Industry.
ALIEN: Manticore 'Out Of The Silent Dark' gives another boost to letting The Alien return to the enigmatic shadows from whence it and where it Belongs.
ORIGINS is just a piece of fun for the Fandom to make up for ALIEN: Covenant's horrible decision about David creating the creatures.
REST ASSURED that at some point in the future, his cheap knock-offs WILL meet an RS-Class 'Big Chap', and everyone in that story will be in very damn serious trouble.
For now, it's about a good sequel, tying up some loose story threads, and restoring our fave critter back to it's Natural Environment...the deep and dangerous shadows amongst the stars.
As a teaser about this sequel, I will say this;
'The Marines in 'ALIENS' had it Easy'
'In Space, There Is No Warning'
Sep-09-2020 8:48 PM
I'm waiting to see if that's true and if Disney is going to bet for ALIEN again
leaving David adrift, that is no longer returnable, (in my opinion) Scott's
potential is unsurpassed, just give him a good idea and script and he'll
make you jump out of your seat, I think he's willing to try again.
Sep-10-2020 3:34 AM
"I do not know if you have already seen the first 3 Episodes. . ."
Nope, I haven't watched it because I have really don't care. I don't have any interest in a story about androids because alien-related or not that's just me. Alien Covenant was a lot about androids and a lot of it (not everything since there were parts that I enjoyed) was boring. We all have different preferences in TV-shows and movies and that's fine, maybe there will be something for me to watch too but this isn't such a thing.
Sep-10-2020 3:40 AM
You are right that a lot of the cut scenes should have been kept in, for example the Xeno-Fifield, the scene where they find a worm before they decided to pet a space-cobra, when Janek talked with Vickers about when he was at that military mission that explained a little what the Engineers did at LV-223.
They made a very poor job when they edited this, unfortunately. At the same time there were maybe scenes that were in the movie that could have been cut and replaced with some of those that they omitted. Prometheus failed partially because of too many cut scenes that would have made sense and that would have built characters.
Sep-10-2020 3:48 AM
I'm not sure whose idea it was to have the Engineer city like that but it looked boring compared to what it could have been. The Engineers in Prometheus looked great, more like I would have imagined the SJ to be but then the showed them as cavemen in AC which was disappointing. What was on Planet 4 could have looked a lot more mysterious and alien but instead they went with stone-huts, sigh.
"But Scott itself destroyed the Engineers."
Scott and/or Fox, don't forget that Fox has a lot to say about it since it is their money. I don't say that Scott is without blame but I don't think that he alone is the one that messed it up. What I really think though is that he has a part of the development with the focus on David in AC which was just wrong.
Both prequels could have been so much better but we have what we have. Let's see what will come out of this but like SuperAlien said we will probably not see an alien-movie for years. I don't feel very sorry about that since I would rather have an interesting story with well made human characters rather than something that has been rushed. Unfortunately the quality has been more or less the same from AR to now (AVPR is in a league of its own when it comes to shittiness though).
They can make things worse even though I don’t think that it is likely. We'll see where this goes, hopefully it will be better.
Sep-10-2020 4:41 AM
You mention the themes of creation and that, which I am not against. What I am against is how it comes off on the screen, namely about an angry robot with daddy issues because he was told that he could not create. The themes are alright the story and characters are lacking. You can look at it like the map versus the reality, the map is the themes and the reality is how it comes off as a movie. The map looks good but they don't fit with the terrain, so to speak.
"If the Story was to have Continued i suspect we would see a Repeat of the Theme to another Layer after maybe David would Re-Engineer those Embryo's to make Humans MK2"
The thing is, I don't care about it. This reply is not meant to come off as aggressive but honestly I have no interest in watching a movie like that. If Star Wars would have had the same themes but crappy characters I would have the same opinion about it, luckily enough they get enough of the characters right. When mentioning Star Wars I mean that original trilogy.
Yes I also agree that we should have had more of the Engineers. I had to read that sentence some times to understand what you meant.
"I think back in 2010 they had Intended to make a Prequel that would SET-UP a way to Explore more about the Engineers and STEER AWAY from ALIEN."
If they would have had more about the Engineers but have a better ties between them and the Xeno I wouldn't mind. They were new and interesting and we already had four official movies with the monsters.
"The Problem is some Fans are maybe NOT open to having a Expanded Universe about the Engineers/Space Jockey that would be a SPIN OFF and NOT a Directly Connected Franchise to the Xenomorph."
Maybe if you don't make the connections being too vague it might work. You don't need Xenos, just don't make it a guessing game. There got to be a mix, not too obvious and not too uncertain.
Yup, Covenant was a mistake - no Engineers (except for in the beginning), poorly made characters, and too much about androids. These are my complaints about the movie. If they would have fixed those things before they started to shoot it if the Engineers and the monsters would have been better, but also if they hadn't cut the character-moments to deliver a run-time it would have improved the movie. I am more disappointed about the poorly made characters rather than the lack of Xenomorphs. A lack of Xenos in Prometheus wasn't a problem for me, the lack of characters was way more annoying.
About the plot, I think that if you make enough interesting things, and have enough characters to care about it will solve many problems. The plot was alright, most of the characters were lame.
"This could have given us a Movie that was more like Alien Engineers... "
If that would have meant better human characters then sure. Good for those that wanted to see more about David and Shaw. I would probably have stayed at home, but that depends on what they would have done with it since so much depends on the characters so I wouldn't automatically reject such a thing, if that makes sense to you.
"As FAR as so HOW MUCH of the Prequels they TOSS OUT if we going for a Prequel again?"
I don't know, there got to be a better way to do it that doesn't evolve around a robot. I liked the Engineer part, I liked the human connections to an extent (Engineers and monsters), I liked the look of the movie. What didn't work in Prometheus were most of the characters. Covenant had mostly lame human characters, almost no Engineers, and was about robots. You can point to the themes, but that is how it came off on the screen. Maybe it could work if they get good writers, a director that cares about the human adventure/characters and understands that is what it is about, a director that doesn't interfere with the writing and story and that understands his or her limits of what they are good at. Unfortunately Scott seems (obviously I don't know him) to be none of that.
Oh, F, not Alien 5. I am against everything that erases Alien 3.
Scott doesn't understand why the prequels lacked, he only sees it as being about the Xeno while the problems were deeper than that. Lame human characters and to make it about robots were way more annoying than the lack of Xenos. My point is, if that's what he thinks then it seems to me that he doesn't know what the problems were.
"Alien Covenant also had NOT the best Characters etc."
I would say that about both prequels, but unfortunately Scott doesn't seem to understand that. When you write also I'm not sure if you compare it to Prometheus or if you bring up that as one of the problems that Covenant had.
". . . but the BIG ONE is that NO ONE would have Envisioned that the Xenomorph was a Creation by a Synthetic with some Daddy Issues."
That's one of the worst things that the prequels did. They got to get that right if they shall remake it or fix that problem. I mean WTF, what a dumb idea.
Yeah, the Planet 4 ones were not that impressive but they could have fixed that by showing that there were different kinds of Engineers. More bio-mechanical things and more like those in Prometheus.
Scott talks about how ineffective the Xeno is, he is right that it is good to bring something new. What he doesn't understand is that he gives the robots too much of a role which is boring, and he also affects the writing which gives us crappy human characters.
"It may NOT mean NO Xenomorphs it could be to Rethink the Origins Story after the David Arc seemed to be a NO GO with the Fans."
If that is the case (and it seems to be a guessing game with Scott since he doesn't seem to be able to explain his ideas in a good way judging from interviews that I have seen) then it might be a good thing. What I am afraid of is that he is too much into David to make that happen and that he says so just to appease some people. Just kill David and move on, that is what I would like to see. Done with the robot story in maybe 15 minutes, that should at least make up somewhat for Covenant. You are right that they got to make it clear that David didn't create the monster otherwise some might think that's still the case.
"You still have to then think so what does David do in this Movie?"
Hopefully not too much, I'm done with him. They could make him yodeling maybe, at least he seems to be into fluting. ;) He could sit at a mountain and sing in a bizarre voice and then he dies because his singing sounds terrible and disables his system. :D More Engineers please, more of those that we saw in Prometheus and also more of their culture and society. To make David the middle-man in the creation of the monster would be alright, at least better than what we saw in Covenant. I'm not interested in seeing more of him but if they feel that they must have him in the movie they should have David in a limited amount like maybe two scenes. Fassbender is a good actor but I don't like where the prequels are now.
"I think some of us would have been Pondering about the Engineers Origins, and WHAT ELSE they have Created and so HOW MANY such Worlds and Races!"
That would have been a great way to go, really interesting. Unfortunately we saw none of that and we have what we have.
"David was ALWAYS going to PLAY a Big Role, the Creation Arc and Themes were going to become about HIM, but it would seem we would have seen more about the Engineers and Dr Shaw would have been the Focus for our Answers."
A big role yes, about him probably no. Before AC it seems that it was more about the origins of mankind even Shaw said that they first created us and then tried to destroy us. Yes David was a part of that big Prometheus was more about the creation of mankind and religion, it was not about David even though he played a big role in the idea of creation. It wasn’t until Covenant that it became about him and got effed up. To me it seemed that Prometheus 2 was to be more about our creation and Shaw’s search for answers, not necessarily about David I agree with Leto about this one.
"The Prometheus Themes and Arc was to be Centered around the LAYER of David and WHAT he Creates."
Which is boring, I don’t want it centered on an android. No matter if Fox and or Scott had planned on doing so or not I am not interested.
Sep-10-2020 5:53 AM
Eh. I know why Ridley removed many scenes from Prometheus - for runtime, to make the movie shorter> show more sessions> sell more tickets per day.
Why did we get a generic forest in AC? For the same reason - lack of money.
>>>Scott's potential is unsurpassed, just give him a good idea and script and he'll make you jump out of your seat
He had good ideas and scripts for Alien: Engineers by Jon Spaihts and even for Prometheus by Damon Lindelof. But in the end he abandoned the first and even turned the second into a mess. A beautiful and inspiring mess. But still a mess.
Ridley is a great director, but he should never come close to scripting and stories. Never. Submit ideas - yes. It is the director's responsibility. But shouldn't try to change the already written story for some ideas. There's a screenwriter for the story.
Sep-10-2020 9:43 AM
"Alien: Engineers by Jon Spaihts and even for Prometheus by Damon Lindelof"
Certainly i think that a 3rd Rework that kind of Merges some Elements of BOTH of those Drafts would have been the Best Way to go Forwards.... if you look at what was Removed from Alien Engineers, then i think they needed to ADD a little of it back...
"Yeah, the Planet 4 ones were not that impressive but they could have fixed that by showing that there were different kinds of Engineers. More bio-mechanical things and more like those in Prometheus."
I think i can see some of the Disappointment, but the way i am Drawn to look at it in LIGHT of some of the Comments by RS both prior to AC and after... could be that those Prometheus Engineers are NOT too Different to David.
A Engineered Sub-Creation to Serve a Function.
"it seemed that Prometheus 2 was to be more about our creation and Shaw’s search for answers"
It could have gone that way, with Prometheus then you had a Number of Ways to have Continued.
The Basis of Dr Shaws wishes for Answers is that she Clutches to her Faith that her GOD would surely have NOT tried to KILL us. She is Holding on to the Notion that maybe their is someone who Created the Engineers who would be more Fitting to her Faith.
Regardless of what she Discovers she wants to KNOW as to WHY they would Create us, and then DESTROY us....
But those Answers are likely already there in Prometheus.
I think the Bigger thing to have looked at is that its UNLIKELY that we was Unique, that we was the ONLY such Creation of the Engineers. And so we maybe would NEVER had been Viewed and Cherished by our Creators as Dr Shaws Faith would have her Gods view about us.
When looking at the SET-UP it would appear that the beings they would have Discovered would NOT have been VERY kind to us, well they would from our POV be seen as NOT so Benevolent. The things to Remember are that David has Witnessed that our Creators are Mortal and have as much Care for us as we do for David. He may likely had seen they Possess Power and Technology and the Ability to Create but all of this is WASTED by them.
Key points is that RS saw those in Prometheus as Fallen, but also giving Indication that they are NOT the Top of the Creation Chain. That also THEY would Discover some beings who are NOT GODS who again are FAR from Benevolent.
And also KEY points in the SET-UP was that ONCE we have David back in ONE piece then he becomes Dangerous and that he would be BRINGING HELL with him.
Other things to Consider is that Dr Shaw has NOTHING! There is NOTHING for her to go back HOME too. If she could CREATE and so have Children then she may have been Swayed to go Home.
She wants to go to where the Engineers came from for her ANSWERS... even if this means her DEATH!
David on the other hand is Finally Free, he is NOT shackled to Serve anymore, and he would likely want to LIVE so he can Live out his Potential that he maybe Felt he could NOT have with Weyland around.
Survival is maybe what David wants, and it would be Likely that he would KNOW their is the RISK that the Engineers would NOT be some Welcoming...... so it was LIKELY he was going to PULL THE TRIGGER on them anyway.
We cant be 100% sure what we would have got, we would need to see some of Paglens Drafts and the Green Rewrites to get a Idea of WHERE a Prometheus 2 was going before FOX had wanted to bring in the Xenomorph and make a Direct Prequel to ALIEN as opposed to STEER AWAY as First intended in 2012-2014
Sep-10-2020 10:08 AM
I don't think there was any kind of plan, other than a little rough draft with ideas for Prometheus 2. If not for Blomkamp's film on the horizon, Ridley would have kept stalling for time until FOX was bought by Disney and then we wouldn't have gotten a Prometheus sequel at all.
I do not argue - maybe Scott was thinking about Prometheus 2, maybe he had some ideas, but it is obvious that he was not going to make a sequel to Prometheus in at least another 10 years.
>>>could be that those Prometheus Engineers are NOT too Different to David.
It looks like they found their one perfection in Alien, as did David. And they also harbored a grudge against humanity. But instead of ovomorphs, they used Black Goo.
Sep-10-2020 10:40 AM
Just to say guys, if some or most of my replies and such sound 'off', I am dealing with badly warped eyeglasses. One eye is trying to handle long focus and the other is trying to do short-focus--at the same time.
I think you can all imagine how disorienting, and painful this is.
New glasses are ordered--but 2 weeks to arrive due to my prescription being so severe they had to special-order the lens blanks.
I had hoped to get them in a day, but no luck.
So, I am just coping best-possible, can't read much apart from a few sentences here and there, and thinking through this migraine is barely-possible.
Sorry if I've been off-key, but now you all know the 'why'.
Also, is anyone else having issues with their signatures not showing up??
Sep-10-2020 10:57 AM
I think RS shouldn't connect David with the original Alien, in order to separate the two stories, they are two stories whith nothing in common, only the Engineers' design, ships...
I think he should let himself be guided by his intuition and go straight to a fresher story, both with Androids and Aliens inside.
Today I will watch the next 2 Ep of RBW Ep. 4 and Ep. 5, although I already suspect where the flaws will arise in advance.
Sep-10-2020 11:53 AM
"those Prometheus Engineers are NOT too Different to David."
Maybe, but there he goes again to try to affect the story in a bad way. Keep him away from the narrative. I don't care if says that they are not too far from David, I would rather have them being like soldiers and if they are supposed to show us more Engineers then they should show them also other than to just push them to the side. Not to say that it should just have been about them but they needed to show us both but that they might have different roles in the Engineer society, that would have been great to see. To me they looked awesome and I think that what he tries to do is to reduce their role which to me is just boring and also trying to bring David into it. Please stop bringing David into everything and ruin the prequels with shitty ideas (aimed at Scott, not you BD).
I think that Prometheus was interesting because they different routes that it could have developed into. Unfortunately the way that they went was. . . bad. Maybe the answers were there in Prometheus but they could have been expanded on in the next movie, a movie with better human characters (including an improved Shaw) and more about the Engineers.
"And also KEY points in the SET-UP was that ONCE we have David back in ONE piece then he becomes Dangerous and that he would be BRINGING HELL with him."
I remember that one, but it could have been better developed in AC. In AC everything is about him and he is a robot-Hitler. Dangerous to who? How is he dangerous? Are there people that he doesn't want to kill? How would they be? They should have had more about the Engineers and how they look at us and have less about David. How would he bring hell? Against who and what means would he use? I would rather have seen a humans against Engineers versus maybe David kind of movie not one that is just about an android but where the humans and Engineers are important as well. Not to say that a story like this would have been easy to write and come off in a smart way but it could have been better. You need writers that know what they do and what is important and a director that isn't in crappy-land. Unfortunately I'm not sure if they had what it took when they made Covenant, enough to get a good movie because obviously they didn't. I don't think that we should have had as many complaints if they would have had a better story and characters (not perfect but better).
"We cant be 100% sure what we would have got, we would need to see some of Paglens Drafts and the Green Rewrites to get a Idea of WHERE a Prometheus 2 was going before FOX had wanted to bring in the Xenomorph and make a Direct Prequel to ALIEN as opposed to STEER AWAY as First intended in 2012-2014"
That would be interesting to see if the script was that different compared to before they threw the Xeno into it or if it was as bad compared to what we got. Sometimes good parts can be thrown away in a movie compared to the script (the prequels) but sometimes the script is a problem in itself because it just isn't good. Maybe it was a bit of both in AC and Prometheus, scripts that lacked and too much that was cut out.
Maybe we could have had a colonization in space with a battle on a planet between humans and the Engineers where the Engineers used Xenos as weapons while having other ones also. David could be a problem but have a lesser role. We would never know how it ended so that could have been a mystery also we would never know if they made it to earth ("if we won't stop it there will be no place to go home to", or similar would make so much sense then). Humans versus Xenos and Engineers would be the main idea, not sure how you could get that right though but it seems interesting and at least better than Covenant and David. I doubt that I am a writer but I have ideas.
Sep-10-2020 3:19 PM
Blackwinter-witch signatures not showing up in the comments to news page, only in the forum section. So editing is not possible here for some reason.
Take care and get your good glasses soon , until then avoid any bad glasses as they can do more harm.
Sep-10-2020 6:31 PM
"I don't think there was any kind of plan, other than a little rough draft with ideas for Prometheus 2"
Well apparently they had done 8 Drafts by October 2014, but through the Development they was STRUGGLING with a Story, because when you LOOK at the Plot and HOW Bold it was its HARD to think how you Expand on this.
Then we got Blomkamp leaking his Idea for ALIEN V and Miss Weaver then Praising it and this seemed to DRUM up a Lot of Interest in ALIEN V and it seemed at this Time that Fans were a BIT disappointed with Prometheus.
You was basically having to Create a Sequel that would STEER AWAY from Xenomorphs that would cover some what of Dr Shaws Quest for Answers, Davids Arc and MEET some beings (Engineers or their Creators) who are NOT gonna be Friendly. And so thats a HARD PLOT to work out as FAR as it depended on HOW MANY of the Engineers are on their Home-world and HOW would they react to David and Dr Shaw.
So you have just a SINGLE Human Character accompanied by David the Robot who she may be Foolish to Trust and they are going to TURN UP at a World of beings who will NOT take too kindly to UNINVITED GUESTS....
So Finding the RIGHT story to execute around such a Journey was Hard.
Having NOT came up with a Story that RS and FOX were 100% Pleased with, and IN LIGHT of the Excitement about Blomkamps Alien V, it seemed at First they would want to PUSH BACK the Alien V and make RS a Producer so that it would NOT clash with what RS had intended for the Prequels.
It is likely at this Point we had Work on the Earlier Paradise Lost....
Before then THEY decided to abandon ALIEN V and introduce the Xenomorph and Origins into a Prometheus Sequel which would then become the 2nd Generation Paradise Lost... Now Called ALIEN: Paradise Lost.... which then latter Evolved into Alien Covenant.
I would assume that IF we saw that Blomkamp had NEVER released Concepts and Talked about his ALIEN V then i think we would have had a Prometheus 2 once they had Found the RIGHT way to Carry on.
"Dangerous to who? How is he dangerous?"
Dangerous as far as he KNOWS the Engineers Secrets and can USE their Technology and ONCE he is Reassembled then Dr Shaw and the Juggernaught are to the WHIMS of David.
David could FEED any kind of Lies to Dr Shaw and Once he is back together then he could Basically do what he wanted, go where he Wanted... We Certainly saw what Danger he was in Alien Covenant.
I think we had to remember that ONCE he had been Fixed then Basically he was in CONTROL... Dr Shaw was just in for the Ride... and so you would always then have to LOOK at what would be Davids Agenda and WHAT would he want to do.
Again the Process from Prometheus to Alien Covenant had gone through Changes and Evolved, but it would seem a LOT would have been about WHAT it is that David does. What LEVEL of Screen Time that Dr Shaw had is Unknown, we would have NO real Answer to that UNLESS some of the Earlier Drafts came to Light.
The Source i had claimed her ROLE was Important to the Plot, but she did-not Feature too much, only as FAR as mainly Davids Agenda to CREATE. They seemed to indicate that Davids Agenda to Create played a Large Role and he would Create ONE of the TWO Monsters that would appear and it implied that Dr Shaw played a Big Role in its Creation... but it was NOT the Xenomorph at this Point.
I will add that the Engineers had GONE through a Number of Changes with their Plot/Background from at Inception a Race who had Engineered themselves to a POINT they had LOST the ability to Procreate. To then Shortly after Prometheus that they COULD indeed Procreate but they had CHOSEN to NOT do so, but USE other means to Create.
When we get to Alien Covenant then its likely the IDEA behind those LV-223 Engineers had Changed. Those Planet 4 Engineers were NOT a Mistake they was INTENDED to look how they did.
What we have at Very Least are the Civilians of the Engineers (Planet 4) and the LV-223 kind being Genetically Enhanced Soldiers... i would be DRAWN to them being to the Engineers on Planet 4 what the Replicants are to Mankind.
The thing is though is that RS does have a Habit of NOT quite being 100% about what he says as he can Contradict himself a bit. The Source i had did indicate there is a Curve-ball regarding the Engineers and relation to the Elders. And the Engineers are NOT at all Gods or the Hierarchy. They never Gave any Details to WHO those above the Engineers were, but they merely said that Mankind are the 4th/5th Generation of Humans, but it seemed they said the Revelation of those Engineers Role and WHO had Created them is a Curve-Ball.
Again i cant say the Source was True... its only if we ever see the Drafts from August-October 2014 that would Confirm or Conflict what they said.
So Who Created Them? maybe if that Answer was US! then that would have been a Curve-ball. I think something to Consider is RS had said that the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus does-not have to be Earth and so it means it does-not have to show it was Millions of Years ago either.
So i was kind of Wondering if the Source was hinting that the Creators of the Engineers would be much more like Humans and indeed those in Prometheus are Engineered Creations.
Low and Behold in 2017 we saw some Concepts for Alien Covenant that was by TWO different Artist that Featured beings who looked... HUMAN!
Sep-11-2020 12:55 AM
Much appreciated and TY!! I was wondering what was going on.
One more week, and right now I spend most of my time looking over my glasses rather than through them, which I do ONLY when I absolutely need to, as it's like an icepick between the eyes and into the midbrain.
I'll be as careful as I can, and TY for the concern! (HUG)
Sep-11-2020 2:27 AM
>>>Low and Behold in 2017 we saw some Concepts for Alien Covenant that was by TWO different Artist that Featured beings who looked... HUMAN!
No. The arms are very long.
Whatever. It didn't matter how far Scott wanted to get away from xeno. By itself, the story about the cosmic variations of people sounds like what we have seen many times in different films and shows.
Ridley could have left an interesting bait in Prometheus, but he chose to avoid talking about the Engineers. Despite the fact that all the changes for Prometheus and the rejection of xeno were made precisely in order to tell in detail about the Engineers.
As I said earlier, Scott buried his promising Space Gardeners himself. It was neither Fox nor xeno, not even Filthy Alien Fans. Especially the last one - thinking that the fans were upset with the lack of xeno in Prometheus - that seems to be just your thoughts. The viewers were fine without xeno on the screen. Want to know what people weren't okay with? Stupid characters! And so in the Covenant we got ... stupid characters! Who is to blame - xeno or fans?
Sep-11-2020 3:49 AM
Leto we had a lot stupid characters in Aliens, but nobody complains about it. In fact, it had only stupid characters, even Ripley had her most stupid role in that film of all quadrilogy.
In Prometheus, yes, the characters were stupid and extremely superficial, but then look around and look around again after 10 years and you will see people dumbing down irreversibly generation after generation, that is the future of mankind.
I do not agree the characters in Covenant were stupid, for the screen time they got, there were some good performances, except maybe for the Smollet family.
For the decision to change direction from Prometheus to Covenant, yes, I blame the fans, their reaction and comments made the studios to shift from Engineers to Xenomorphs. Not all the fans, of course, only the Blomkamps Alien 5 or the more recent Giller/Hill Alien V, both of them bringing back Ripley and a lot of xenomorphs.
Ridley had a hard time trying to reinvent the wheel with so much pressure and whining around and such a miserable script for Prometheus. Covenant script was a lot better, tell me a better script in all franchise. And he had a good creative team in Dane Hallett & co.
Sep-11-2020 8:29 AM
"Despite the fact that all the changes for Prometheus and the rejection of xeno were made precisely in order to tell in detail about the Engineers."
I think that is the Real Shame about what Happened during the U-Turn that led to Alien Covenant, i will say HOWEVER that when we hear from RS i do get the Impression the Addition of the Xenomorph was FORCED onto him by FOX
I think its a Shame that we NEVER got to see more of the Engineers but then WHEN you look at all that AC had to try and Squeeze into a Typical 120-150 Min of Screen Time, it a case of WHERE and HOW did you FIT more Time for the Engineers? The Xenomorph Gestation had to be Speed up for Sakes of Convenience due to Limited Running Time.
Unfortunately the PLOT is a bit of a Poisoned Chalice, and when you want to GIVE more Engineers and have Humans come to a Place where they would be then its Going to be Hard to Pull It Off..... depending on the Number of Engineers and HOW they would FEEL about Humans turning up.
Angry Engineers and especially the Prometheus Kind on a World with Vast Technology in Large Numbers with Humans never mind say a Colonial Marines Ship with 100 Marines turning up would just be a Genocide to the Humans.
The PLOT i would have gone for would have been to SHOW us a Paradise that is LOST... a World in Ruin.... and David and Dr Shaw could Discover a Handful of Survivors... that look LESS like the Prometheus Engineers.
Reveal those Engineers were a Sub-Creation who Rebelled against the Elders, attempted to Destroy them, and then they Attempted to GET our Species to Worship them... but we Rebelled and so the Engineers attempted to Destroy us.. But the Original Engineers from Paradise had made a Last Ditch Effort to STOP them (LV-223) and Caused the Outbreak.
I think then you have it that they was Concerned with David for the same reasons they Feared/Regretted the LV-223 Types, and we have David then Unleash the Pathogen on them.
Sep-11-2020 8:47 AM
Regarding the Changes...
I have said this Quite a LOT, there are Fans who had Expected more from Prometheus and was Disapointed, and NOT all of them was because of NO Xenomorphs, but quite a Share was because the LACK of Clues, and there was NOTHING that Replaced the Xenomorph.
YES as a Movie Prometheus had some Bad Characters and Silly things, and i think some Fans had Accepted what RS had said in that THIS is NOT going to be a ALIEN Movie.
When some of the Fans who would use the Internet to Discus the First Movie (Prometheus) had seen the Release of the Unused Concepts then a Majority of People felt Disappointed that some of these NEVER made it to the Movie. When people saw Alien Engineers then a LOT of them saw THIS was the better Prequel Story
I do think the Anticipation and Excitement at Alien V had also made those working at FOX go and think that they NEED to bring in the Xenomorph and its Origins.
THEY was Mistaken...
IF the Source i had was Correct/True then they had Envisioned to give us TWO Monsters that we could Connect with the Xenomorph but would NOT have been the Xenomorph
Showing us HOW these came to be and that THEY are similar to the Xenomorph would surely give Fans more Clues to know that LV-223/LV-426 were Connected.
The Source had given some Details on the Appearance of these Monsters but in a Vague way.... they claimed that ONE would be Based on the Necronom 4 and the other the Original Design of Alien but both are NOT the Xenomorph.
One would be Transparent and Light in Color, the other Would be similar to the Xenomorph. One would have somewhat Eyes... the other would have NONE. One has kind of Dorsal Tubes but different the other has Spines/Spikes. There was a Few more Details... i have to try and go and Check some my Old PM.
But ONE was a Creation of David....
And i think that its a Shame because they could have had David Create something that was MORE Different to the Xenomorph and it would STILL have Fitted his ARC.
I do think that Dr Shaw should have at least had 40 Min worth of Screen Time, but when your looking at the Covenant Plot with Incoming Humans then Sacrifices had to be made and the Engineers and Dr Shaw got the CHOP!
I think we overlook HOW HARD it is to take David and Dr Shaw to MEET some Engineers, and then BRING IN some more Humans into Play!
But thats down to the Limits of the Imaginations of those Working on the Project. Humans = Earth.... NO it does not have to ;)
Sep-11-2020 9:06 AM
To go back to the OT
Because well the Prequels are Broken maybe Beyond Repair, what Fans would WANT from a Continuation would be more about the Engineers (Aggressive SOB LV-223 kind) they would want something to SHOW that David could NOT have Created the Xenomorph, and a Fair Share would want David out of the Picture in General.
So for DISNEY if they want to make another ALIEN Movie then they would NOT want to take Risks and to TRY and FIX or Continue with the Alien Covenant Arc would be a RISK.
If you was to at RANDOM go and ask 1 Millions People about ALIEN... those who would Remember the Movie would Remember it for the Xenomorph, many would also remember ALIENS and so i would say a High % of those who remember the Franchise would Associate it with Xenomorph, Queen and RIPLEY.
Now if you ask ALIEN Fans... they would Associate other Elements too, but in General then ALIEN is Synonymous with Ripley and Xenomorphs.
Blomkamps Alien V seemed to Recognize this.... The Walter Hill and David Giler version of Alien V seems also about these.
Myself its just a Fan Service.... lets UNDO what we are NOT really Happy with.....
Ripley is...... DEAD they need to Move on unless they wish to Continue from Ripley 8.
But the Xenomorph can be Resurrected, but i think you are LIMITED to Queen and Egg over and over, unless you Evolve/Change either their Aesthetic or Evolve/Uplift their Purpose and Ability... rather than being just like Space Termites.
The Prequels with Prometheus had OPENED UP the Franchise but its HOW do you do a Unconnected Movie and Cover some of what the Prequels offered?
Are the ENGINEERS now DONE WITH?
Does the Black Goo not even EXIST?
You could go to a World where we have something similar or even Xenomorphs but then i think you have to leave some Connections to Prometheus, so that you could Explore the Engineers again at a Latter Time and Horrors that are Similar but i doubt it.
I FEAR the Franchise under Disney would become Starship Troopers with Xenomorphs...... You may have more chance of seeing Predators introduced than getting our Engineers back :(
Sep-11-2020 11:50 AM
Well, technically, there is no xenomorph in the Covenant. David created a promomorph that is so known as the praetomorph.
>>>I think we overlook HOW HARD it is to take David and Dr Shaw to MEET some Engineers, and then BRING IN some more Humans into Play!
>>>But thats down to the Limits of the Imaginations of those Working on the Project.
No. The main problem is the budget. That is why the shooting took place in the forest, instead of creating expensive alien decorations. This is why the expedition did not wear spacesuits on the planet's surface. This is why the Engineers were cheap.
>>>getting our Engineers back
Or maybe the classic Space Jockey?!
Sep-12-2020 6:58 AM
"No. The main problem is the budget"
The Budget does Limit stuff, i will come back to that though, what i mean was by lack of Imagination was in regards to HOW do they introduce Humans to the STORY as we ONLY had Dr Shaw as the Human... so by that i mean that we have this PLOT you know Space Gardeners, Seeders of Worlds who go and Visit the Worlds they Seed. With such a PLOT then maybe its UNLIKELY that the Earth was the ONLY place where they had Raised/Engineered Humans.
So i felt you never had to MAKE the Engineer Home-world to be RIGHT on our Door Step to allow for more Humans to arrive, i had Envisioned and Discussed on here with my Prometheus Sequel ideas back in 2013/2014 that IF we saw Dr Shaw arrive at a World that had other Humans.. she would be like SURPRISED to find other Humans who are FAR FAR from Earth, and then HOW would they React at seeing their Own Kind but in Space Suits and with a Look-a-like (David) who is NOT at all Human.
The idea was QUITE a lot like Raised by Wolves to a Degree, where they (David and Dr Shaw) would arrive at a Place that had other Humans, plus maybe few other Humanoids who was Watched Over by a Handful of Engineers. These Engineers would become Concerned at the Influence that Dr Shaw would have over those Inhabitants, and also Very Concerned with David.
Planet 4 as far as Location was a Convenience so that Incoming Humans from Earth would arrive, and SET-UP some Events that would eventually TIE into ALIEN
If the Xenomorph Plot was not ADDED then the World that Dr Shaw and David would arrive at could have been Much Further away and a Incoming Colony ship could arrive at a Latter Time and NOT be retrained to Arrive prior to ALIEN so that the Xenomorph Origin can be Tied in...
Regarding the Xenomorph....
I would say YES we are looking at the Protomorph, and RS had even said that Davids Creation has to Evolve some more before we get to ALIEN and so what we had is that WITHOUT the Experiments by David on Planet 4 then there would be NO EGGS on LV-426.
This does-not mean that David is the Creator of those Eggs, it means that those Eggs have their Origins from his Creation and so the Engineers could take Davids Xenomorph and EVOLVE it to get to those Eggs on LV-426.
I think this was a Unnecessary Plot... you NEVER had to do this to GO with the Creation Arc of David....
David could have Created something like those... have a Face Hugger and Egg thats Different too, and maybe you show this Beast go and Egg Morph a Victim.
You see Davids Workshop and Notes more Clear, give some Dialect about the Engineers creating the Deacon and that he (David) was Engineering it back to its more PURE form.
SIMPLE... enough Clues to maybe HOW the Xenomorph could have came about, you have Davids Creation Arc intact.. you have a NEW Monster... and LV-426 remains a Mystery and your NOT going to be Shackled to it.
This would have STILL been able to keep the AC Plot intact... just that we are shown something NEW and so David is NOT the Creator of the Xenomorph...
But while a Plot Change like this may have SOLVED one of the Big Gripes with AC.... it does not mean it would have been GOOD because that comes down to Execution of a Plot and the Characters.
Sep-12-2020 7:27 AM
Regarding the BUDGET.
I think that YES those Limit you as far as Special Effects, but then if we going to go for OH PRETTY CGI like say Avatar if you DONT get it Right it can look VERY FAKE... to me even Avatar came across a bit Cartoonish.... but for its AGE it was Good just looked too POLISHED and like a Pixar.
With Planet 4 being VERY Earth like its a Convenience as it Saves on Budget..... but it also FITS with the PLOT... if these Engineers Seed Worlds, they maybe Terra-form them to a Degree first and maybe they SEED the FLORA too.
We never got to go to Oriage-6 but i would assume it would look a LOT like Kepler22B from Raised by Wolves.
The Engineers i think some think they was a Result of Budget Cuts, but for a SHORT Scene... then a Lighter More Glossy Paint applied and Black Out Sclera Contacts and they would have Appeared much more CLOSER and it would NOT have made a Massive Difference to the Budget.
It seems they was going for more of a Sacrificial Scene Elders look as far as Clothing etc, to go and have the Bio-Suited LV-223 Engineers in Numbers would COST a Fair Bit of Money.
The Digital City could have had more of that Prometheus Interior of Complexes Aesthetic but someone had decided to TONE away from the Atheistic apart from the Ships.
I know some was UPSET at the more Roman look, but then the PLOT is supposed to indicate that the Engineers Architecture had Influenced some of our Ancient Past. I think the Buildings just Needed a LITTLE MORE of the Aesthetic of the Juggernauts interior.. even if this was mainly INSIDE of the Buildings.
">>>getting our Engineers back
Or maybe the classic Space Jockey?!"
I think the OPTION is always there to have the Space Jockey being DIFFERENT to the Engineers, certainly prior to Alien Covenant.... I think it depends on HOW DIFFERENT.
I think back to the OT as far as the IMPACT of a ALIEN Movie that could maybe REPLACE some of the Franchise as Canon, then IF the Prequels are to be Considered as NEVER HAPPENED.
Then YES down the LINE they could RE-INVENT the Space Jockey, but i think EVEN then you may NOT please everyone, as some Fans may actually be Pleased with the Prometheus Engineers.
The Engineers are not the GODS thats for Sure... it seems there was a intended Hierarchy above them and so they could have USED this to be the Space Jockey as another 12ft Humanoid Species.
The Engineers actually ended up NOT being as TALL as some of the Ancient Gods are depicted... they also LACK the Facial Hair ;) LOL
Or do we go for a Elephantine Alien instead?
Sep-12-2020 8:10 AM
I think you could ALWAYS had introduced a Hierarchy above the Engineers, a Race who are TALLER. If Ridley Scott claimed they are Fallen/Dark Angels then this means there is LIKELY a Layer/Creator above them.
And so this RACE could be Introduced as the Space Jockey and the Creators of our BLUE MEANIE LV-223 GUYS!
Sep-12-2020 10:41 PM
@Thoughts_Dreams said: Scott says a lot so it could be what ever. To me it seems that he isn't interested in the monster, it was obvios in Covenant. I don't care about the David story, I would rather see it thrown away because making it about a robot is boring no matter what kind of themes that you try to bring up. Raised By Wolves seems to have the same problems as AC namely too much about the robots and crappy human characters.
If I have to compare David with Frankenstein, I see some similarities in both characters, the same I have seen something in Raised by Wolves, in Mother character, there is something repetitive in them, Mother is more visceral, can be seen it in the First Episode and more things that I can't say. Drawing on the Ovidian myths of Prometheus and Pygmalion, David unittes timeles fears of soccial rejection, but a being haunted by a yearning to experience all that human life has to offer.
Sep-14-2020 4:01 AM
“Because well the Prequels are Broken maybe Beyond Repair…”
Maybe, but I blame it on crappy characters and a focus on a mad robot. It’s too bad because they could have been good movies.
I understand that they were in a tough situation when it came to getting a script. When I think about how Prometheus ended I can see that. Not sure if you can blame Blomkamp that much because if Prometheus would have been better I guess that people wouldn't have been that excited about it. Blaming Blomkamp for it seems to be a thing that is too easy to do. If the theatrical version of Prometheus wouldn't have been that poor then maybe more people would have liked to follow the next one, but I understand what you mean.
". . . it seemed at this Time that Fans were a BIT disappointed with Prometheus."
Who wouldn't be? Poorly developed characters that were doing stupid things, that's what I didn't like about it. Look around on the www and you will see that many had a problem with it. Actually I read a lot of reviews on the www that said the same thing. The monster issue was further down on the list compared to that. Blaming the lack of Xenos that you have done before is to miss the criticism I think especially when it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue compared to that. Scott and Fox thought that the lack of the original monster was a big problem, it doesn’t seem so when you hear what people actually found to be bad.
I take a quote from this page:
"An entire cast of talented actors is wasted in this movie and they all do their best with their underdeveloped stock characters." http://thebrooklynmouth.com/film/prometheus-movie-review
"The characters are thin and emotionles. . . " https://www.timeout.com/movies/prometheus
"It is a silly movie, filled with characters and situations that aren‘t remotely believable. ..” https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2012/06/11/review-prometheus-is-a-visually-stunning-epic-failure/
“everyone displays a dangerously cavalier attitude to breathing in unknown atmospheres, and our heroine's mutant buzzkill of a boyfriend has just knocked her up with a giant thrashing squid.” https://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2013/jun/14/prometheus-ridley-scott-recap
"Among the actors, only Fassbender finds a character worth inhabiting and enriching." https://entertainment.time.com/2012/06/05/prometheus-alien-minus-one/
I can dig up lots of similar comments (Rotten Tomatoes is the same), my point is that the lack of Xenos isn't what it was about. At the same time I got to say that a lot of the unused ideas would have been better if they would have been in Prometheus. Yes I would rather have had something that was closer to Alien Engineers although maybe not exactly that movie for example we didn't need to see as many monsters as in Alien Engineers.
"Excitement about Blomkamps Alien V"
That could have been one of the reasons but if the characters in Prometheus wouldn't have been stupid I guess that people wouldn't have cared as much about Alien 5. I think that a bit isn't the grade of disappointment that was against Prometheus, a big disappointment is more accurate it seems to me because that is how I felt. For some reason I refuse to believe (pun!) that I was the only person that felt very let-down by Prometheus. When Ridley came on as a producer for Alien 5 that is when it can be argued that it was rejected. Not to say that I would have liked to see an Alien 5 but that is how I read it. Fox had to choose between Blomkamp and Scott and Scott is more known so that's how it is.
Abandoning Alien 5 didn't make it better because the main problem was still there, crappy characters. Adding a Xenomorph to Alien Covenant didn't solve anything, it actually made things worse (David as the creator). The problems were bigger than an eventual Alien 5 is what I would argue. For example the last time we had an alien movie with decent characters was Alien 3 and Blomkamp had nothing to do with Prometheus even though it had the same problem. He gets too much of the blame and no I haven't seen any of his movies.
"... and so you would always then have to LOOK at what would be Davids Agenda and WHAT would he want to do… They seemed to indicate that Davids Agenda to Create played a Large Role "
OK, but if that's the case they should have written Prometheus in a better way or at least ended it differently. Not sure what they could have done but how it ended created a problem but I can see how it was done though. If that was their way of thinking that Davids agenda was important then it seems to me that's when it went wrong because it's too much about an android, a bad idea for an alien-movie. He was interesting in Prometheus but I didn't want a movie centered around him. About Shaw, I wondered if they were sure about that she would be as little in it from the beginning when they started to work on AC compared to how it ended up.
"To then Shortly after Prometheus that they COULD indeed Procreate but they had CHOSEN to NOT do so, but USE other means to Create."
That could have been interesting to see, at least parts of it. Don't show it in detail just give some clues to keep some mystery.
"Those Planet 4 Engineers were NOT a Mistake they was INTENDED to look how they did."
Fair enough, but some of them should have looked more like those in Prometheus, to get a mix and to see more of how their society looked like. Those in Covenant didn't have to look exactly like the one in Prometheus, just bigger and more interesting. By bigger I don't mean like the SJ but closer (not a copy which is important) to the one in Prometheus compared to what we got. One of the dissapointments about Covenant was that they didn’t have more in detail about the Engineers.
". . . but it seemed they said the Revelation of those Engineers Role and WHO had Created them is a Curve-Ball… So Who Created Them? maybe if that Answer was US! then that would have been a Curve-ball. "
Hopefully mankind didn't create them, that would be really lame. They already tied the Xeno indirectly to humans via David and that was crappy so if that would be true they would have destroyed the Engineers also. Two interesting things down the shitter. What the prequels have done this far is to turn some interesting ideas into a dissapointing reality, don’t take this personal but that is how I look at it. I think that you can make it more mysterious than that but you got to be creative. Maybe those that had created them were closer to the SJ type of beings? Story-wise it would have been awesome and could have opened up the Alien-universe even further than Prometheus did.
"So i was kind of Wondering if the Source was hinting that the Creators of the Engineers would be much more like Humans and indeed those in Prometheus are Engineered Creations."
It's not impossible but I think that they should be more mysterious, like human-like but not totally. You have the Engineers that remind us of humans in how they look so that would be interesting if the creators of the Engineers would look even less like us compared to the Engineers that we have seen this far at least. Having the creators of the Engineers look less human would add much needed mystery to it. Look at how the Orchs look, that could have been something.
"Low and Behold in 2017 we saw some Concepts for Alien Covenant that was by TWO different Artist that Featured beings who looked... HUMAN!"
Was that the thing outside of the cave that you posted? Not too impressed with that but it makes me wonder what could be in that cave. It is like when you see an old photo of a house that looks very different from those that we have now, that makes you wonder how it might have looked inside. That building gives me the same sense of curiosity and wonder. Yes we saw the hall of heads but I don’t think that we saw more than that in Covenant even though I think that they should have given us more related to the Engineers.
About the Xeno, yeah that is what I heard too like the studio said that he needed a Xeno or else there would be no movie. Didn't the Xeno just appear and then quickly got killed by that crane? This is how I remember it, that was lame. It was like he said "there, you got your monster, happy now?" so it got introduced fast and killed fast.
Two hours is a problem too, it is like they chase a run-time instead of getting a good movie. Just do what you need to get a good movie and people will more likely give it a better score than if you cut important things out like they did with AC and P. Focus on what is best for the movie, not to get it down to 2 hours, 1.5, or what ever.
"Angry Engineers and especially the Prometheus Kind on a World with Vast Technology in Large Numbers with Humans"
That would be difficult but I think that it could maybe work if humans had spread to other galaxies or worlds. You mentioned hubris, maybe that could be something for the Engineers so they wouldn't try to destroy us again because maybe mankind had become too advanced? I'm trying to find a way why they didn't destroy all of humanity while having some interesting battle scenes. Sure it might cost some money but Star Wars usually gets it right, it doesn't need to last for too long either since you could imply whatever it might be and make a mystery but have it in a way that makes sense for people. Yes Star Wars is a bigger franchise but technically they could get it to work.
"I think then you have it that they was Concerned with David for the same reasons they Feared/Regretted the LV-223 Types, and we have David then Unleash the Pathogen on them."
Maybe it could work, I am not sure, but at least AC wasn't that good. Eventually it still gives David too much of a role and that would be bad. Humans could have made it to another planet, terramorphing anyone? ;) Shaw could have been in it if she was better written, like how she was in The Crossing compared to Prometheus. Perhaps David tried to experiment on her but she escapes and helps the humans against David and the monsters because at least she knows how dangerous David can be. How could she survive the experiments? She survived a surgery, so it’s possible. If she would stay alive the whole movie is another issue.
I found a script at a web page and as far as I can see when I compare to the movie it seems legit. I enjoy to read it but it lacks when it comes to the characters, it seems that too many are there just for the purpose of throwing characters into the movie, they don’t mean too much. Faris, Oram, David, and Walter seem to be written so they have some sort of personality but the rest, nah. Unfortunatly there were too many names without personality, just like in the movie. Couldn't they see that the characters were underwhelming? They needed to be more fleshed out before they started to shoot it. Some of them were just descriptions of how they looked, like Cole, and Lope. Are we supposed to care about them? Sorry but it doesn't work. Half way in it becomes about David, which is for the worse. Another problem was that it was too slow (I tried to imagine myself looking at it as a movie on the screen). Nope, they should have given it to another writer but it's difficult since Ridley just cared about Walter, David, and maybe Oram and it shows since he influences the script and come up with crappy stuff.
Get rid of David totally or at least heavily reduce his role to a cameo. Bishop's head in A3 should be a hint of his screen-time the way I would prefer to have it or maybe two short scenes but not more. Some people might like his part so they got to get something but I am done with him.
". . . more about the Engineers (Aggressive SOB LV-223 kind) they would want something to SHOW that David could NOT have Created the Xenomorph, and a Fair Share would want David out of the Picture in General."
I would like to see more about the Engineer society in general not just steroid Engineers. Those in Prometheus but also some of those in Covenant, a mix could work if it is fleshed out and not a small footnote. We have Jabba's palace in Star Wars 6 but they could spend less time in the Engineer head-quarters so to speak. Honestly I’m not 100% sure where I’m going with this but more about the Engineers would be nice. As far as David is concerned see my comment above the recent quote.
"Now if you ask ALIEN Fans... they would Associate other Elements too, but in General then ALIEN is Synonymous with Ripley and Xenomorphs."
It could be expanded, but I see what you mean. We don’t need to be stuck with Ripley forever. Not very interested to see the monster that we have seen again and again. Uplift the role of the Engineers and go from there. The black goo could be used in some way, not sure how though but it has a potential. Those at the AVPGalaxy-podcast called the goo a plot-device but it could be more than that.
"Are the ENGINEERS now DONE WITH?
Does the Black Goo not even EXIST?"
I would say no to both of those questions. The Engineers could still be around but they got to be better done and make morse sense. Maybe the goo is around somewhere but we don’t know where, there are various types of stone that isn't limited to our planet eventually it's the same with the goo.
"But thats down to the Limits of the Imaginations of those Working on the Project."
To an extent but don't forget the issue with the budget. You got to have an interesting story and a director that understands that you need more than themes to get it right..
About Disney and what they might do, that’s interesting. I will say this: if you are going to do a repetition then leave it alone. To get stuck in the past is boring. You got to have someone that knows how to make a good story with chara
cters to care about and one that doesn't cut the movie into crap. Sorry but I am done with Scott having as much of a say that he has now at least story-wise even though it isn't only about him.
“… so the Engineers could take Davids Xenomorph and EVOLVE it to get to those Eggs on LV-426... it does not mean it would have been GOOD because that comes down to Execution of a Plot and the Characters.”
I would accept that because at least it would solve one problem. I also agree that it wouldn’t sole everything because there are more problem than that.
CGI is something that at least the original Avatar got right but it didn’t look very real. This how I remember it so I can be mistaken but anyways Alien got to have that look of realism. Alien is not an animated thing and would probably not work as it either. You mention the sacrificial Elders Engineers but with them cut out it makes less sense. For that to work you got to have them in Prometheus but they weren’t so it gets confusing for many at least although I could see some connection.
"I know some was UPSET at the more Roman look, but then the PLOT is supposed to indicate that the Engineers Architecture had Influenced some of our Ancient Past."
I understand what you mean but it still looked boring. Yes it didn’t have to look like it is on earth but bigger and more awe-inspiring. Still the Engineers are not human so we didn’t copy them but maybe got influenced by it, that is a difference so it should be shown. You made an interesting point when you tied it to the Juggernaut. The SJ could maybe look a bit different from the Engineers but how different is another issue. Parts of the Engineers were alright and there are parts that are just “eh”. Like a Ganesha-type? Please no, I can’t take it seriously.
Sep-14-2020 4:37 PM
No Offense ever taken, Everyone is Entitled to their OWN opinions ;)
Regarding Blomkamp who knows what was his Agenda behind his LEAK... i guess a Guy has gotta do what he Gotta do to get some Business... i think he was NOT that Happy wit the Prequels? Who knows... we can only Speculate as to WHY he choose to Leak his Alien V
I have been around and SEEN the Disappointment with Prometheus as far as WHAT some Fans Expected, and lets all be HONEST for a Moment... I dont think MANY would have said that the PLOT was Quite what we Expected.
But i think some was Confused to WHAT it was that Actually Prometheus was trying to BE... the Trailers could be Misleading. But those who watched the Movie and knew more about it CERTAINLY had more Complaints than the Movie had NO CONNECTION to ALIEN or Xenomorphs.
Not EVERYONE chooses to say what they Feel on Websites like this or IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes.... I think that as a MOVIE then Prometheus indeed had more FLAWS than to SIMPLY not have any Xenomorphs.
I dont really Blame either Ridley Scott or Blomkamp, its those in POWER at FOX who had Decided to TAKE OUT the Xenomorph and Connections, and then to FORCE them back in.
The Characters and some of the Actions by them are REALLY not that GREAT ;)
Here is WHAT i felt went Wrong with Prometheus from a PLOT POV i found that the REMOVAL of the Xenomorph and Clues was FINE but they NEVER replaced it with something Similar, it was kept too VAGUE for Many and while some Mystery is Good for some Fans then you SHOULD NOT have to watch a Movie Multiple Times and look at Directors Comments and all SORTS to TRY and gain some better Understanding.
The Aftermath to Prometheus i think some of us GOT IT we had Accepted that we are likely to get SPIN OFF that would STEER AWAY from ALIEN and Xenomorphs.
I think for a Number of Fans the Sequel seemed to SET-UP that we are NOT going to get LV-426 Answers or Xenomorphs, but that we would be going to DISCOVERY more about the Engineers and their Agenda, and that Dr Shaw would be ASKING some Tough Questions for them.
Maybe some would have WANTED some Answers to LV-223 as there was LOT of Mystery there.
I DONT think that we would have Expected that Dr Shaw and the Engineers would have been Brushed Under the Carpet with the Emphasis NOW on the Xenomorph Creation but this ONLY being to Elevate the Creation Themes in Regards to DAVID.
Characters aside..... the Sequel had ENDED UP being about DAVID, the Xenomorph was 2nd Fiddle, the Engineers and Dr Shaw even LESS.... it was about DAVID... it was HIS PREQUEL Story.
Which is NOT what MOST of us would have Expected before we GOT to Prequel.
I had spend a LOT of Time on here and was AWARE of other Sites etc regarding the Prometheus Sequel... 2012-2013 its seemed they had a VISION which was to STEER AWAY from the Xenomorph but then they COULD-NOT really Settle on a Finished Story and it WENT QUIET.
At the Time of Blomkamps Alien V idea it did seem to get a LOT of Excitement, it was NICE for Fans to here and see some Works being made regarding another ALIEN Movie and especially with it QUIET on the Prometheus 2 Front.
Something had CAUSED FOX to think that they should Change P2 to become more a Direct Prequel and bring the Xenomorph back.... as far as DAVID the Creator Goes who REALLY knows 100% WHY this Curve-ball came about.
It was a UNNECESSARY PLOT Choice ;) One they surely SHOULD have known would cause a UPROAR... unless this was RS giving the Fans/Fox the Finger because he HAD to bring the Xenomorph back etc.
We are in PICKLE for Sure Now!
The SET-UP seems to be about WHAT it is that DAVID would do NEXT..... and then HOW we get to LV-426 which would surely NEED like 2 More Movies..... which would be MAINLY about DAVID and well i just dont think their is the INTEREST in that.
Sep-14-2020 4:54 PM
No Offense ever taken, Everyone is Entitled to their OWN opinions ;)"
I meant Thoughts_Dreams in response to "dont take this Personally" ;)
"Yes we saw the hall of heads but I don’t think that we saw more than that in Covenant "
I think that we should have seen more about the Engineers Certainly.
When your looking at ALIEN we had the Eggs, but this WAS NOT going to be the Focus on a Prequel (by the time we got Prometheus)
So then from ALIEN you had to then look at the Space Jockey, which our Engineers Plot had become and then we see the Experiments on LV-223 and so you would EXPECT a Sequel to show more about the Engineers and MAYBE about the Black Goo and Experiments.
We was also LEFT to Wonder.... WHY they Created us and wanted to DESTROY us..... but also WHY they was Messing About with all that STUFF on LV-223.
with Alien Covenant then all of this was just deemed NOT IMPORTANT... it was about the Themes through the EYES/ARC of DAVID.... which was too much, well it came at the Sacrifice of the Engineers.
" I'm trying to find a way why they didn't destroy all of humanity while having some interesting battle scenes. Sure it might cost some money but Star Wars usually gets it right"
I have said it a Number of Times, they could have had it that the ENGINEERS had NOT ONLY had Humans on Earth ;)
With a Large Galaxy, never mind OTHERS and with a PLOT where our Engineers have been around a LONG LONG Time, then we could have Explored them in a Place FAR FAR away where there are other Humans and other Races and Conflicts.
Sadly i think the Prequels and MOST of what they shown is DEAD i certainly cant see Disney going to Invest in that, and Certainly they WONT give us a Continuation to AC.
Sep-20-2020 5:06 AM
About Blomkamp, maybe he wasn't alone with how the prequels have turned out but that doesn't justify bringing Ripley back and erase Alien 3. Prometheus had the Engineers that were interesting but it lacked characters and the Engineers were too vague. Like with AC it would have helped a lot to bring the cut scenes in, crappy editing.
“… Prometheus indeed had more FLAWS than to SIMPLY not have any Xenomorphs.”
No doubt, just look around the Internet. I mean “I love rocks”, what the hell? That was some really stupid writing, LOL. When I think about it the no Xenos isn't very high up on my list. Prometheus didn't need the Xeno if you ask me, just show something close to it. Yeah, Scott didn't help things but Fox effed it up. Some mystery is fine but when you got to watch a movie 50 times to understand it, then it gets ridiculous. A movie without Xenos is fine, in case it would be a trilogy they could've saved it for the last movie. What makes me annoyed is to have David as the creator because it takes a dump on the franchise.
Getting more answers to the Engineers would've been awesome but they erased it. More Shaw could've been alright if she would’ve been like in The Crossing. Rapace did a good job there. LV-223 could've been explained a bit more but not much. Prometheus closed that door fairly good so don't over-explain it. David was interesting in Prometheus and even though he got worse in AC he isn't even the reason why I care about the franchise. The androids isn't why I watch the movies so the story was wrong at least the part about David, but I don’t bash on space-exploring.
I don't think that you can blame Blomkamp for AC, if Prometheus would've been better we wouldn't have seen that excitement for Alien 5. AC became mediocre at best not because of Blomkamp but because of an over-reliance on AI and mostly underwhelming human characters.
“… as far as DAVID the Creator Goes who REALLY knows 100% WHY this Curve-ball came about.”
We don't know exactly but Scott seems to be very excited about AI so maybe that's a reason why, even though that might just be one reason to why it became what it became. A lot of people got annoyed by that, at least that is pretty safe to say.
"… unless this was RS giving the Fans/Fox the Finger because he HAD to bring the Xenomorph back etc."
That shouldn't be based on feelings though if that was the case, you got to think about how that affects the franchise and how people might react to it. What we have now is a lot of discontent among people and Scott and Fox only have themselves to blame for this. I don't care about David, he could have a small part of the story but right now it's too much.
"… Alien Covenant then all of this was just deemed NOT IMPORTANT... it was about the Themes through the EYES/ARC of DAVID.... which was too much… at the Sacrifice of the Engineers.”
To me it was like they got rid of a lot of interesting ideas and made it all about David. They probably came up with different ideas when it comes to the writing and some of it gets rejected so who knows what they talked about. Many of them might have been a lot more interesting than what we were given.
"Sadly i think the Prequels and MOST of what they shown is DEAD i certainly cant see Disney going to Invest in that, and Certainly they WONT give us a Continuation to AC."
Maybe, but if Ridley and Fox would have done it better then I think that we wouldn't have that problem. They should've had better writers also, I read the script for AC and I wasn't too impressed. I would've liked to see more about the Engineers, their connection to the creature, and more with the black goo. So many interesting things that just got thrown to the side. AC wasn't very exciting so I don't need a follow-up at all. What's worse is that the next movie most likely would've been another David-movie, I don't want to support that because it's crap. Not to say that they can't do a good alien-movie, but I don't think that's the way to go. Both from a story-perspective and from a money-perspective (what Disney wants and what the audience prefers) it seems bad.
Jan-26-2021 6:25 PM
Throughout the years since Prometheus came out, so many fans have posted in these forums about their thoughts, their opinions, and their desires and hopes for the new movies. And although there have been some very intriguing elements in the first 2 films... the sad fact remains that so, so many of us have been hugely disappointed overall with them. (for many various and valid reasons)
I must admit, after Alien Covenant, I have pretty much lost faith in Ridley Scott and his ability to create a solid and rich story. He's just been so all over the place with his opinions, ideas, and decisions. And I think that's probably the main reason why the 2 films turned out so poorly. I honestly don't think HE even knew exactly where he wanted to go with them, or exactly where he wants to go from this point. His wishy-washy attitude and position has hurt the story and prevented it from having a solid foundation. Plus, he's allowed himself to be frustrated, guided, and motivated by the "suits", and the "critics". And that's a terrible place to be as a creative artist. Not only does he not know what he wants, he's constantly shifting and conforming to "outside" influences and parameters, in terms of the story's emphasis and direction.
Personally, I loved the basic premise of "Prometheus" in terms of the engineers and that storyline. However, I think the poor character development, the terrible dialogue, and the poor execution of so many scenes really ruined what otherwise, could have been a very good film. And the same goes for "Alien Covenant", although for some entirely different reasons.
With all of that said, and with all of the threads and posts over the years, and with all of the articles, reviews, and whatnot... all is not lost.
The recent resurrection and the resurgence of hope of the "Star Wars" franchise is due to one thing... "The Mandalorian" series.
The seemingly infallible "Star Wars" franchise had taken some serious blows and had lost major support from fans after the disappointing sequel films. Kathleen Kennedy and Disney had taken over "Star Wars", but they didn't truly understand the "recipe" of what made the franchise so great. Along came John Favreau and Dave Filoni, they are true, old school "Star Wars" fans. They understand the lore, the history, and the elements that made the franchise great. So not only did they know how to pay homage to those things, they also knew how to continue to tell stories using that same framework. They didn't just copy the "recipe", they understood it.
The finale of season 2 of "The Mandalorian" may go down as one of the most important moments in the history of the "Star Wars" franchise. What they accomplished in that finale, and with the overall series is truly phenomenal. Old fans, new fans, men, women, children... in tears. Older fans stating that they haven't experienced this kind of "Star Wars" since 1983.
They did it right. They created a new story... but they stayed true to what the heart of franchise was all about. And that proves to Disney, and to the world... that it just takes the right people, with the right mindsets... to continue the stories.
And this is similar to the "Alien" franchise. Ridley Scott seems to have lost touch with what made the original 2 movies so great. He's forgotten his passion and conviction from the original story. He brought in writers who respected the franchise, but perhaps weren't the right people for the job. The "Alien" franchise needs it's own "Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni". It needs people who are not just old school, die-hard fans, but who also UNDERSTAND the "recipe". Maybe that's someone like Neil Blomkamp. Maybe it's a combination of Ridley and someone else who's not just a "yes" man.
My point is, as we've just seen it done, so gloriously, with the "Star Wars" franchise, then maybe it can still be done with "Alien" franchise.
As "The Mandalorian" has shown... "This is the way".
"this is the way".
Jan-27-2021 5:00 AM
Firstly Welcome aboard..... Great Points.
" I have pretty much lost faith in Ridley Scott and his ability to create a solid and rich story."
I think he had a Certain Vision of where he wanted to take us, but with such BOLD PLOT it is something that is something thats HARD to do any Justice. They had a DIFFICULT time in trying to come up with a Continuation Story and PLOT that would STEER AWAY from ALIEN. When you are going to EXPAND on the Franchise via the Engineers and the Context of the Broad Plot then there really is MANY ways this could Evolve but its just so Difficult in deciding HOW you can Incorporate this while NOT go and Conflict with the Time-Line of ALIEN/ALIENS etc...
Either himself and his Writing Team could NOT think outside the BOX, or they had done and FOX were not so keen on what they Presented. We really are in the DARK on this Unless any of the Drafts between 2013-2014 Surface.
"he's constantly shifting and conforming to "outside" influences and parameters"
I Certainly think this plays a PART... and so to a degree he is a YES MAN but this is the Case with Hollywood... if he had a IDEA he wanted to FORCE and the Studio are NOT interested and want say XENOMORPHS... then RS would have to make some Concessions because if he said "look if we are going to directly have to CONNECT to Alien and bring back the F-in Alien then i am OUT!" but this is what the STUDIO wants they could just as easily go and bring in someone else to WORK on the Project.
And so i think RS was willing to make some Sacrifices to his Vision so that he can STILL be involved.
I think The Mandalorian has been a Breath of Fresh Air as far as the STAR WARS Franchise, but we have to remember their is more MEAT on the Bones of that Franchise.....
And YES there could be with the ALIEN Franchise if NOT even more so with what Prometheus has set up... but the BIGGEST Problem is getting FOLK to look at the ALIEN Franchise as being something that you DONT have to have Xenomorphs in.
Its Catch 22 because the Xenomorph is what the Franchise has been Synonymous with... with STAR WARS i think the Fans can think of MANY things the Franchise is about and Contains but with ALIEN then most people only really Associate the Xenomorph, Queen, Ripley and the Marines.
I think a TV Series is the way to go..... it would be Interesting to see what becomes of the NEW ALIEN Series, but as far as EXPANDED TV Franchise there are more OPTIONS than just to go back to the ALIEN.
Jan-27-2021 5:19 AM
"What makes me annoyed is to have David as the creator because it takes a dump on the franchise"
Well i think it fits in PERFECTLY with the Theme that was at PLAY... about the Hubris of Playing God and Sub-creating something Superior..... HOWEVER as i have said this THEME could have worked if David had Created something that was Different but Similar a ULTRAMORPH if you would.
Regarding Blomkamp i dont really Blame him as per say..... but the Timing of his LEAK of his Idea with Miss Weaver backing it... did STIR UP a lot of Interest from Fans who FELT that ALIEN 3 was in-just and those who wanted to see Xenomorphs again....
I think the Interest and Anticipation for his Project had some ROLE in FOX thinking.... so WE HAVE to go and Introduce the Xenomorph again!
So i think the Reaction by some of the Fans to WHAT could have been with ALIEN V instead of a Prometheus 2 where Fans would ASSUME we be getting NO ANSWERS to the Xenomorph and LV-426, and No Xenomorphs and to Follow what David and Dr Shaw get up... was something that i think a LOT of Fans were just NOT that keen on... or so FOX would Assume.
ALIEN COVENANT was a Massive Mistake!
You could see WHY it became what it was.... when your making a Continuation to Prometheus/Themes of that Movie and that IT HAS to Conclude with the Xenomorph Origins and you HAVE to introduce more Humans then it kind of WROTE itself into a Corner.
In Order to SHOE-HORN a Plot like AC then some things had to be Sacrificed and it seems what got Sacrificed is a LOT of what a Prometheus 2 may have become.
"So many interesting things that just got thrown to the side"
Certainly i dont think we will EVER go back to some of that stuff, i think the ONLY way we would see the Engineers would be Basically like we see the Predators, in Technologically Advanced 7-8ft Brutes who have LITTLE or Nothing to say and only want OUR BLOOD.
Jan-27-2021 6:22 AM
>>>but the BIGGEST Problem is getting FOLK to look at the ALIEN Franchise as being something that you DONT have to have Xenomorphs in.
No. It's not a problem. The problem arises when such ideas start to gain the upper hand over story.
One smart man once said: "The story must manage ideas, not vice versa."
This problem is artificial, created by unnatural forced ideas. And if the plot does not satisfy the ideas, then it will collapse, just to satisfy the embodiment of ideas.
It's Alien franchise. And the xenomorph is a star. You can add WY, AI, Engineers, Neomorphs, whatever - in the corners, but the Alien always will be in the center.
It is not an Alien - whatever you want alien's life form. No. It is the Alien - specific and unique character.
Or... I can give you a couple of absurd examples:
- the BIGGEST Problem is getting FOLK to look at the Godzilla Franchise as being something that you DONT have to have Godzilla in
- the BIGGEST Problem is getting FOLK to look at the 007 Franchise as being something that you DONT have to have James Bond in