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ALIEN: Back to the Future Part 2

ALIEN: Back to the Future Part 2

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BigDave

Jan-12-2019 4:14 PM

Welcome to Part 2 of the Back to the Future Series (First Installment HERE)... were at this Juncture i would like to discus/cover what was SET-UP for Prometheus Sequel.  And where it should have gone.

THE SET-UP

After Prometheus in 2012 Ridley Scott had announced they had plans to carry on the Prequels with a Sequel to Prometheus with revelations that the Next Movie would Steer Away from ALIEN and take us into a NEW Direction.  He felt that the you could not leave Prometheus how it ended and that you HAD to follow on with the PATH of where David and Dr Shaw would be heading.

Ridley Scott initially suggesting we will go to the Planet of the Engineers, were Dr Shaw wants to meet our MAKERS,  we would Discover these beings who are NOT Gods (not in the Traditional Sense) and who are FAR from Benevolent. But David would be Bringing HELL with him and what happens if the Black Goo infects a God or a Machine?

Ridley Scott talks about our Engineers being Fallen Angels, and that the Movie would loosely have elements from Paradise Lost (Philosophy).  He also talks about the Relationship and Dynamic between Dr Shaw and David, where he suggest Dr Shaw is at a Catch 22 Situation, and that David with his head on can be VERY Dangerous but he is very Persuasive.  Ultimately Dr Shaw has little Choice.

We witness from the END of Prometheus that David and Dr Shaw managed to Locate another Engineer Ship (of which there are MANY) and they had managed to leave LV-223 with the Ship.  Prior to Leaving (likely before they boarded the Juggernaught) Dr Shaw had left a Transmission to WARN anyone who comes close, that this place is FULL of DEATH and to STAY AWAY.

THE DEVELOPMENT

The sequel to Prometheus  had gone through quite a Developmental Hell with Jack Paglen brought in to work on a Draft that went through a number of changes, but seemed to be about David and Dr Shaw discovering some World Related to the Engineers.   Then Micheal Green came in to work a number of Revisions, were it seemed the Engineers connections to Fallen Angels and Paradise Lost seemed to play a part in the Direction they would explore our WOULD-BE-CREATORS.

Then it Entered Limbo..... until Harper and Logan came in to give us what eventually became Alien Covenant.

So i propose to you to Discus, maybe were they SHOULD have taken the Sequel...  If we cast our minds back to the JUNCTURE were  David and Dr Shaw had successfully found another Engineer Ship and JUST left LV-223.

Where NEXT! should the Story had gone?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

74 Responses to ALIEN: Back to the Future Part 2

chli

Aug-14-2019 10:06 PM

Concerning AI running W-Y Corp.

If we take "Alien: Covenant Origins" as canon, Hideo Yutani is CEO of the company. He also has a daughter and they are very much flesh and blood . . .

But the company creates synthetics (Ash e.g.).

ignorantGuy

Aug-15-2019 1:02 AM

chli According to Aliens, Ash was created by  Hyperdyne Systems, not WY.

chli

Aug-15-2019 5:09 AM

IgnorantGuy

You're right! Interesting! Why would W-Y use a synthetic from Hyperdyne when they have their own models (David, Walter)?

ignorantGuy

Aug-15-2019 7:18 AM

chli The only mention of WY producing synthetics Previous to Prometheus is the cluster-f**k in Alien 3. In promo material Bishop is still Hyperdyne, but its "designer" is brought in by WY to convince Ripley to surrender the queen. What is the exact relationship between WY and Hyperdyne is anybody's guess, but the short answer to your question is Riddley said I don't care and probably shouldn't care, as David and Walter were meant to mirror Ash and Bishop, to generate money from nostalgia. 

BigDave

Aug-15-2019 3:41 PM

First off regarding the Synthetic Manufacturers, i think Ignorantguy made the Points already.  As of ALIEN we was NOT given any Detail about ASH as far as what Model he was etc, we just knew he was a Synthetic that was Placed on board the Nostromo with the Objective with MUTHUR to obtain a Xenomorph Specimen.  We was Never really given information on WHO produced ASH, it could have been Wayland-Industries or they just Purchased a ASH from another Company and Programed him for Special Order 937

It was James Cameron with  ALIENS that gave some information that ASH was a Hyperdyne Systems Model, which has a similarity to Camerons Terminator/2 Company Cyberdyne Systems, purely Coincidence or was it intended to be a RIFF of Cyberdyne a Joke a Easter Egg?

We also discover that Bishop is also another Newer Hyperdyne Systems Model we could wonder what the Connection is and WHY is it that Weyland-Yutani use Hyperdyne Systems for their Synthetics?

Hyperdyne could be a Company that has a Contract with Weyland-Yutani to Provide the Synthetics as it appeared back then that the PRIME Goal of Weyland-Yutani was to "Build Better Worlds" and so Space Travel, Terra-forming, Mining and Colonizing Worlds that seemed to be their Main Business.

They also had a Agenda to  Obtain a Xenomorph for Bio-Weapons Research, so we can assume they have some Military Aspirations. While employed the Colonial Marines this Military Force is Ran by USCM and are Contracted by Weyland-Yutani for Specific Missions.

I am not sure there are any indications that WY own in any part USCM, i dont think they do?  And so WY could also use Hyperdyne Systems for Synthetics but not actually OWN the Company but they certainly are Affiliated and maybe USCM have a Security/Military Contract with Weyland Yutani when it comes to Providing Support for Certain Missions from a Security and Rescue stand point?

With Alien 3 we was introduced to Bishop II who claimed to be the One who Designed the Android Bishop from Aliens,  we see that Bishop II works for Weyland-Yutani and is part of the Team from the USCSS Patna (which is owned by WY) to retrieve the Xenomorph Queen from Ripley.  It is accepted that the Sulaco and Patna are Constructed by Weyland-Yutani.

So the reveal of Bishop II could indicate he either Designed for Hyberdyne Systems some Synthetics who Weyland-Yutani used to Contract with for Supply of Synthetics and then Bishop II went to work for Weyland-Yutani as far as Biological Weapons Research Department, or that Hyperdyne Systems are  a Subsidiary of Weyland-Yutani.

The Prequels indicate a Origins of the Company as in Weyland Industries, the Viral Site for Prometheus seemed to indicate some Conflict with Yutani as far as Patents for Synthetic Technology.

One of Weyland Industries Successes were the Synthetic Market and in Particular the David Models, by the time we get to Alien Covenant we have had the Company Merger with Yutani... at this point maybe Hyperdyne Systems came about as a Subsidiary to Produce Synthetics for Weyland-Yutani, or at a latter point maybe Weyland-Yutani had Sold/Contracted out the Production of Synthetics to Various Companies of which Hyperdyne Systems is the one they regularly use?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-15-2019 3:59 PM

"Concerning AI running W-Y Corp"

Certainly Chli, however it could be any such PLOT could happen after the events of Alien Covenant we can assume as of 2105 then Yutani seems to be the Main Controlling Aspect of the Company... could that Change? who knows...

@MonsterZero

I can understand your ASH1 point...  ASH was a Hyperdyne Systems 120-A/2 so maybe the ASH your thinking of could be a Hyperdyne Systems 120-A/1?

while this TOPIC is to come up with Alternative Sequels to Prometheus... so that basically we can RETCON as much of Alien Covenant or the Entire Movie.

I dont mean to be Disrespectful... but part of the ASH1 Plot is Flawed as far as Time-Line.   I think as a Fan Fiction its fine if we looked at a Latter Time-Frame.

For sure its Logical a Mission to LV-223 must happen again at some point after Prometheus, but in order for this to happen in 2095 then the Ship that ASH1 is on must have left for LV-223 like a Year or So after the Prometheus had set off to LV-223.

You have to Wonder for HOW-LONG would they wait before NOT hearing off the Prometheus before they would consider a Mission or Determine the Prometheus is Lost with its CEO... Weyland was Dying anyway but surely Vickers would be Next in Chain of Command? or Certainly would Benefit from Great Control had she NOT gone along on the Mission.

You would say the Company would wait 6-12 Months, thats Reasonable.... but then you have to Factor for HOW-LONG does a Message take to Reach the Company?

If the Prometheus had sent a Message back saying it is Arriving at its Destination say on 24th Dec 2093, then its a case of HOW-LONG would that take to get back to WY HQ?  If we assume 2 Years, then the Company would be Concerned or have some indication something is Wrong if they DONT get any Information coming for  a Period of say 2.5-3 Years after the Prometheus was due to arrive (Dec 2093).

So say it could be Mid 2096 or Early 2097 before the Board would be like... "we have not heard from the Prometheus, lets investigate"

So your ASH to LV-223 Idea would work if say you had the Year that ASH1 had arrived as say 2110 or after.

It would not matter about the Covenant because as with this TOPIC... you could just take it that the Mission had NEVER happened...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-11-2020 9:19 AM

Think i will BUMP this Thread.

I know that MOST people had NOT enjoyed Alien Covenant and that it was NOT what they Expected from a Prometheus Sequel.

So ONCE again let see HOW or WHAT some of you would have Preferred.

Looking at the SET-UP as we have David and Dr Shaw on a Engineer Ship and WHERE do they GO NEXT and what do they Discover?

We maybe have to BARE in Mind that we can Assume that Dr Shaw needed David to be Put Back together in Order to GO where she Wanted....  BUT once he is back together then he can GO TO wherever he Wants....

He could have gone to Earth and Destroyed Mankind but we know thats not the Case because well  the Earth is in ONCE Piece at the Time of ALIENS.

But it does-not mean that David would have to go to the Engineers Home-world.   We can Assume Dr Shaw is in Cryo-sleep and so David can go to where ever he wants.

*So where does David take Dr Shaw?

*What do they Discover where they Go?

What would you have liked to have Seen and Discovered in a Prometheus Sequel?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Sep-14-2020 4:09 AM

“So ONCE again let see HOW or WHAT some of you would have Preferred.“

Fair enough although I am not sure if it is about which draft I would have wanted to see as a movie or if the question is how I would have liked a movie to be. I will answer the latter question since it seems to be more interesting.

"Dr Shaw and David VS Thousands, Millions of Evil Technologically Advanced SOBS!"

I understand that it beings a problem that is difficult to solve. I would have liked a story with focus on the humans, and better human characters. This would require a writer that knows how to do that. When I say better human characters think Star Wars and the first three movies. Much less about the androids although they could be in some scenes, and nothing of the "android made the monster"-thing. Either make the Engineers its creators or someone above the Engineer that made the Xeno. The point of that is to keep the mystery about it but that we get some sort of answer that isn't too obvious and not too vague. Perhaps this answer is not much to the point but I'm not sure how to give a satisfying answer.

Getting to know more about the Engineers and their society would have been interesting. Tie it to the space-Jockey either as an Engineer or like a cousin to them. Keep their planet bigger and more Gieger-esque. Some of it could have been bio-mechanical but also some gothic stuff could work, it should look different and scary but everything doesn't need to look the same. Maybe it would look scary to us, not to them but the unknown can make us uncomfortable. Have the Engineers as much taller than in Alien Covenant so they get bigger buildings, what we think is big on earth might be small to the Engineers which could help the story. All the Engineers don't have to be of the same size but they should look more different compared to AC. The differences in how they look in AC compared to Prometheus was just strange. I didn’t doubt that they were Engineers but maybe someone else did because of how different they looked.

“A Company Ran by AI would also help Explain the Relentless Pursuit of the Xenomorph at a Constant Folly to those who TRY”

Nah, human greed and an inability to learn from mistakes takes care of that. I understand your point but I wouldn't like it in the movie.

Abot regenerating Xenos, I don't like it. It would make the Xenos too cartoony in a lack of a better word.

“So its not in anyway a FACT/CANON kind of Topic but a Re-Writing of History as a Alternative.”

I like it, it is a good topic.

This house might look big to us but maybe it would be small to the Engineers, who knows? A gothic city could look interesting estethically speaking so no stone huts please. Some people might think that it still isn't different enough but it could be. If they had gothic looking buildings then when we made gothisism on earth well the Engineers might have made that earlier, it is just that we didn’t know about it. Mankind thinks that it is the first but just makes a close version, like David and the Xeno. Perhaps I got an idea there but I am not sure if people would have picked up on that. Mankind makes a copy of the Engineer's esthetics, David makes a copy of the Engineers monster and besides he was made by humans, so he is close to a copy since people already exist. Very few things are really new, just like AC had a lot of copied things from earlier movies. ;) There is a possibility to make your own version though… like it should have been in AC.

No David and maybe no Shaw, get rid of them at least the robot. David since I don't like android-movies, and Shaw because she was dumb but if they would have kept her in a smaller role alive and written better like in the Crossing it could have worked. What if David was curious and be dangerous in that way, not that he would be overtly evil as in Covenant he just doesn’t see the consequences of what he does.

 

He could have a small role and be killed a bit into the movie, like maybe after 20% is over. If we have a movie that is 2 hours and 20 minutes so they could have more and better scenes that flesh out the characters David could be there for maybe 10-15 minutes. You should better know that I am less concerned about the run-time, I am more about getting a good story and characters. No keeping it down to two hours just to sell tickets because that means cutting things out that could have improved the movie, both Prometheus and AC suffered from that. At the same time if you make a decent script that shouldn't be as much of a problem but when the script isn't very good that becomes a thing. Make a good movie and it is more likely that people will watch it, less run time means a bigger risk for good scenes to be cut out that would make a better movie. A better movie means that potentially more people will watch it (word of mouth) so you get more money.

In case they made us, then why? Were me made just for fun (because they could)? Were me made to serve the Engineers? Did they create mankind but we went wrong? Did they create life on other planets? Is there any material that shows that as being the case like sketches or scientific formulas or something?

Engineer society with art, arcitechture, how they have their society could be interesting. Think about ancient Rome. They should have scientists that are a part of manufacturing the monsters like we have biological weapons. Not all of them need to be technologically advanced, know about technology. Have them being some sort of religious with pristests and that, who knows what that would look like exactly?

We know that the Engineers would not be happy with mankind so I imagine a space-battle between the Engineers and humans. Maybe something else than that I am not sure but it could be interesting. The Engineers would have created the Xeno, not David or at least the Engineers would have found something that they made the Xeno from. Keep the goo as a secret, not like David did when he talked about it because it ruined some mystery but I prefer to believe that David was sort of hallucinating and talked nonsense about it in Covenant.

BigDave

Sep-15-2020 5:52 AM

"Either make the Engineers its creators or someone above the Engineer that made the Xeno"

That was INDEED the Idea prior to the U-Turn and Curve-ball in Summer of 2015.

The Purpose of my Back to the Future Series is to essentially allow Fans to REBOOT certain Parts of the Prequels and so PART 2 means to REBOOT what essentially is Alien Covenant.

Its to look at what YOU wanted and WOULD have done with a Prometheus 2.   The Set-Up for this ONE was mainly to look at WHERE it was that Dr Shaw and David would GO after they Left LV-223

And so when looking at a Alternative Prometheus 2 then you are FREE to go back to the Drawing Board with some Ideas.

David was Interesting from Prometheus, he was NOW FREE, we seemed to get the Indication that he was NOT treated VERY WELL by Mankind and so with Dr Shaw she could have Influenced the KIND of Person he could Become.

So there was that ARC that he could have come to be VERY FOND of Dr Shaw, and he would WANT to Protect her.  So IF they arrive at a WORLD of the Engineers and he sees them go to Miss-Treat her or become a THREAT to Her, then i think He would SMITE THEM! to Protect Dr Shaw.

Dr Shaw was VERY Naive and Stubborn "its what i Choose to Believe" with her going to ASK some HARD Questions to the Engineers or WHOEVER they Discover we have to Wonder WHAT is she Hopping to Gain?

She is Obviously not pleased with the Engineers, they Certainly are NOT what she thought the GODS would be and well they are NOT GODS.....  using her Faith then she cant FATHOM to WHY would a Godlike Race go and Create Mankind and Visit us, Teach and Nurture us and then WANT to Destroy us!

She had said that her GOD would never try and KILL her.... but in Reality then her GOD has KILLED before, when a GOD becomes Displeased and Angered then they SMITE!

So WAS she expecting to MEET some Benevolent Beings who would NOT want to Harm Mankind?  Was she looking to Find something that FITS with her Religion about GOD?

So the Potential was there that Dr Shaw would make Discoveries that would SHATTER her Faith.... there is NO LOVING and ALMIGHTY GOD...   These beings have Seeded other Worlds and to them we are about as Important as KEEPING a Fish Tank/Pond.    And that the LOSS of a Pond/Tank means they have Plenty of more Fish in the Galaxy Sea, and they just CLEAN out some PONDS/TANKS and Start Again when they FEEL like it with NO real Concerns for the Fish.

So she could then see that these BEINGS are Selfish to their OWN gains and they Dont Respect the Life they Create, to THEM then their Creations are just as we would View David....   so she could then THINK about WHAT RIGHT do these beings have to CREATE various Species then to just DESTROY them at a WHIM!

So there was Potential for the Revelations that Dr Shaw has to MAKE her Faith a SHAM! and Reveal our Creators to have NO CARE for their Creations....    This could BREAK her!

She could maybe see that these Engineers have NO LOVE for their Creations like her Faiths God has for Mankind, and so maybe she takes some Positives from her Faith as far as to LOVE your Creation and DEEM as the Engineers do-not and they could be a THREAT to go around to Many Worlds and simply DESTROY without Pity...

She could maybe then decided its time to KILL this Wanna be Gods ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-15-2020 7:30 AM

Regarding the Architecture i think looking at the PLOT then it would be that Ancient Structures on Earth are Influenced by the Engineers Designs.

The Engineer Complexes in Prometheus were more Basic than in Alien Covenant, its ONLY by going inside that those in Prometheus do reveal some Technology and Advancement in their Interior Construction.

The Cathedral in Alien Covenant was COLOSSAL

And so we did-not see much of the Inside of it, but then as a Place of Worship, a Building that is like a Parliament to them.  Then maybe it does-not have too much of a Advanced Aesthetic.

Many Buildings in the City look more Modern compared to say Ancient Rome or Greece.

I think a Disappointment for Fans and this applies to Prometheus too is they would have Expected the WORLD of the Space Jockey to look VERY much like a HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic.

But i think the KEY thing to Remember about PARADISE is that Especially if we look at the Biblical Context.

*It is NOT where GOD comes from!

*It is NOT where the Angels come from!

*It is the CRADLE of Creation (Humanoid)

*It is watched over by Cherubim Angels.

And so in Context to our Engineers who RS called Dark Angels and Fallen Angels then that means they are NOT the Gods.   They could be the WATCHERS.

So when we was going to Prometheus 2 if these Engineers are NOT the GODS but a Sub-Creation and so like ANGELS if you would then you COULD introduce a Hierarchy above them that are 10-15ft Tall

PS they dont have to have Beards ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Sep-15-2020 1:25 PM

If you want to consider where the sequel was heading you have to be certain of where you came from. The only way to achieve that is to ask Ridley and Damon what they were thinking in 2012.

An authentic sequel has to take account of the following.

“It’s a donation, in the sense that the weight and the construction of the DNA of those aliens is way beyond what we can possibly imagine.” Adding that the planet isn’t necessarily Earth, he says, “No, it doesn’t have to be. That could be anywhere. That could be a planet anywhere. All he’s doing is acting as a gardener in space. And the plant life, in fact, is the disintegration of him.  If you parallel that idea with other sacrificial elements in history – which are clearly illustrated with the Mayans and the Incas – he would live for one year as a prince, and at the end of that year, he would be taken and donated to the gods.” 

The Passion Of The Christ” could also be viewed as part of the “Alien” universe…. if you really think about it…. Or, after that, the Engineers simply abandoned humanity, we evolved, and they got pissed all over again when we came knocking on their door. It fits in line with what Lindelof said during press rounds for the film: “I’m all for ambiguity, but if we didn’t know the answer to that one (ed The Christ Incident), the audience would have every right to string us up. Yes. There is an answer. One that is hinted at within the goalposts of ‘Prometheus.’ I’ll bet if I asked you to take a guess you wouldn’t be far off.”

 And humanity was the offspring of some dark/rogue angels? That would seem to be the gist of it, and we guess that’s where a “Prometheus 2” would go if/when that should ever happen.

 “Now ‘Prometheus’ is ready to go off in its own direction on its own entirely different tangent that is not going to be reliant on the things we’ve seen a thousand times before.”

The Story of Valhalla as expressed by David in the Prologue of AC

 The Gods have rejected mankind as week cruel and filled with greed. So they are leaving the earth forever to their perfect home in the heavens. There every step is fraught with tragedy, and their power is an illusion. They are false God’s.

Elizabeth the person of faith, shaken, was going with David curious about what he was and put back together and responsive to Elizabeth were going to find that they were made by false (Promethean) Gods whose power is an illusion and what they sub create is the seed of their destruction. 

The problem with all that for the studios is it would have meant making a film without a hapless crew and monsters which would have explored in a surreal and unorthodox way the questions raised by Bladerunner.  

BigDave

Sep-15-2020 5:09 PM

@Michelle


I think that Indeed at the TIME that Prometheus had been Released on DVD then Certainly they (RS/DL) had a IDEA of where they would TAKE US for the Sequel.

Which brings me to... "The problem with all that for the studios is it would have meant making a film without a hapless crew and monsters"

Which is No Doubt one of the Problems they FACED when trying to Complete a Story they could be HAPPY with.  You have TWO of the Survivors from Prometheus of which ONLY the ONE is a Human, and they are OFF to where the Engineers come from, well whatever place they Determine the Last Engineer had referred to as PARADISE.

To have a Movie that would REVOLVE around just the TWO of those Survivors (Flash Backs/Dreams aside) is MAYBE something that NOT everyone would go to WATCH.

But they would NOT be ALONE as surely they would MEET some beings, Engineers? or some other Race? Surely Connected!

A Thought Provoking Story much like Blade Runner may have been CLOSER to where they Wanted to take us back in 2012. I think that the LAYERS of Creation and Associated Themes would have been Explored...

But i think a LOT of Fans were ONLY really interested in seeing the Engineers as Aggressive SOB's and they maybe would Expect the Engineers to be Portrayed as we saw in the COMICS.

And so the Journey of David and Dr Shaw would have HINGED on what KIND of beings they Discover and HOW they would React to David and Dr Shaw... if they are as Welcoming as the Last Engineer then the Movie would NOT be Long.....  UNLESS they take to Experimenting on Dr Shaw etc.

But as i have said and what my IDEA for HOW they could have Continued the Story... and Introduce more Humans does-not have to BOIL down to incoming Humans from Earth.   WHY CANT there be OTHERS in the  Galaxy that the Engineers had SEEDED or taken from Earth...

Or DID we even come from Earth?

Another Avenue for the Sequel could have been about WHERE it is that David wishes to GO!   As they said the Sacrificial Scene does-not have to be Earth....  And so i think WHERE it is that David takes Dr Shaw does-not have to be PARADISE.... he could go to another Place but then you have to THINK about WHY and WHERE.

I think when we are looking at a SEQUEL then in PART what may have been the Direction would be Questions that Dr Shaw had surely WANTED to be Answered...  it was UNLIKELY that the Answers that she GOT are what she would HOPE for and so those Answers she gets could have a IMPACT on her Character Arc.

There are OTHER Questions left by Prometheus but these are Mainly ones that the FANS would want to see Answered, like...

*What was LV-223 about? was it always a Outpost to Create Horrific Bio-Weapons?

*What was the Origins of those Experiments, when did they START and WHY?

*What was the MURAL and FRESCO?

*What was the ALTAR and Crystal about?

*Where did the GOO/Black Goo come from?

*What is in the Other Complexes?

Maybe some of these could had been Answered?  But maybe they could have been Answered in a Parallel Story about LV-223 so that David and Dr Shaw would be FREE to go on a Journey that does-not have to Answer the Mysteries of LV-223 that would TIE into the Xenomorph.

I think its NO WONDER they was having a HARD TIME to find the RIGHT STORY about where David and Dr Shaw go and WHAT they Discover.

Who knows HOW MUCH of the Story as Envisioned in 2012 had Remained by the time they got to 2015?

As Time goes on and EVEN in a Short Span of Time then Ideas can Change and Evolve, the Engineers Plot does allow for MANY MANY ways they could Expand on it.

I think its a REAL SHAME that we Ended up with Alien Covenant, and while some of the Themes/Arc of Prometheus is Carried Over via Davids ArcSADLY a lot of what a Prometheus 2 could have been was Sacrificed.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Sep-15-2020 9:51 PM

*What was LV-223 about? was it always a Outpost to Create Horrific Bio-Weapons?

*What was the Origins of those Experiments, when did they START and WHY?

*What was the MURAL and FRESCO?

*What was the ALTAR and Crystal about?

*Where did the GOO/Black Goo come from?

*What is in the Other Complexes?

This is where I part company with the fanbase.

To me all those questions are answered in the movie. These Engineers are Promethean they stole technology and began experimenting with a religious questing fervour. After many experiments using themselves as Hosts (now that is interesting where does this hosting procreation come from) they perfected the creature immortalised in the Mural and bottled it. 

However just as Weyland created for his own vain glorious purpose so had the Engineers of the Moon. Obviously when E & D reach Paradise the question of the relationship between the Moon and Paradise would be answered.

As the Engineers of the Moon were rebels using stolen technology those on the Homeworld would not look favourably on what they did. The implication of Damon's script is having stolen the technology and tried to use it, because it wasn't sanctioned "It got out" and turned on them. The philosophical failure of the Moon Engineers was expressed by what they created turning on them. 

The philosophical failings of the mission had the same outcome but Elizabeth was given a second chance and survived. 

As for the texture questions the Alter was altered to a Tomb to fit the dialogue and the Five Pyramids were dropped in late to give a more impressive sense of scale.

The average film goer has a more fundamental reason than the deep fan for being confused it is they went knowing it had the same DNA  as ALIEN saw a craft hit the ground which looked suspiciously like the derelict but wasn't and saw a riff at the end which seemed to be related to the creature in the original film but did not know how and as to the search for our creators they were told by Elizabeth this place isn't what we thought it was but then to give that point context the only way to find was to watch the next movie. So lots of unsatisfactory puzzles for the casual film goer. 

Incidentally these clarifications have nothing to do with my own personal interpretation some of my ideas contradict the above not for reasons of changing the myth but specific story telling purposes.

David woke in a beautiful stylised chair looks at the Nativity with the hole in the roof and a character pointing to Heaven and finally names himself after Michelangelo's beautiful sculpture the perfect embodiment of an aspirational transformational work created to be shared. Thats elliptical suggestive stroy telling which can be given significance and more so than might have been intended that however is different to saying what is the Moon all about.

The Moon is about why would you make monsters?  

 

BigDave

Sep-16-2020 5:50 AM

"To me all those questions are answered in the movie."

To a degree then YES but it was a bit Vague for some Fans, who maybe NEED to have things Spoon Fed, the more you look at Prometheus, look at Alien Engineers for some Extra Information and read some of the Comments/Commentary then INDEED we have enough to get the PICTURE ;)

But then the SAME could be said with ALL that Dr Shaw had wanted to get Answered.

The things that are LEFT are the Creation Themes and Rebellion by Creation which i think is where the David Arc and WHAT he would do NEXT is something that would have Been Quite a Emphasis going Forwards regardless.

I think Ultimately then Prometheus needed to have TWO kinds of Sequel.

1) A return Mission to LV-223 thats more like Alien Engineers where we can get more Answers to LV-223 and Clues to the Xenomorph/LV-426 that SETS UP the Special Order 937.

Thus the Door to ALIEN is Closed.

2) We go where David and Dr Shaw are going where you NOW have more Freedom and do-not have to be Shackled down by ALIEN and can STEER AWAY from LV-426.

But ALAS....

"they perfected the creature immortalised in the Mural and bottled it"

That Certainly is HOW i see it, which is what Fundamentally what Alien Engineers showed more Clearly.

"As the Engineers of the Moon were rebels using stolen technology those on the Homeworld would not look favourably on what they did"

Certainly we have seen RS refer to the Engineers as False Gods, and Fallen Angels.  And so this means their is another Faction of them (could be Numerous) and their is a Hierarchy above those Engineers and maybe their Creators are a LITTLE Different?  Who knows...

With the PLOT of Fallen Angels if you would, then in that Context then PARADISE could be a WORLD that is FAR FAR from LV-223.....

We could even have explored if the Hierarchy of the Engineers or the None-Fallen versions had Created Mankind?  Are they AWARE of what LV-223 is.

And so the Interesting Thing with a Prometheus 2 would be to WHOM it is that Dr Shaw would MEET and HOW they would view her.... do they KNOW who WE are?

So there are Many Ways they could have given us a Story that is NOT TIED down to being about LV-426 and Monsters.

What i was DRAWN to regarding the Engineers was that to me they seemed to be either.

1) A Faction of Engineers who had Encountered something they had NOT had a Role in Creating, and they SAW such Potential with this that they Experimented with it to EVOLVE/ENHANCE themselves.   This lead to their FALL and becoming Demons/Monsters if you would. Which some may then see as the Next Stage of Evolution for Creation.

2) Those Engineers are a Sub-Creation who had a Specific Purpose and maybe could not Procreate themselves and so their ARC is the same as with David.  They Rebel against their In-superior Creators and Attempt to Create something NEW.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Sep-16-2020 12:09 PM

Given that Elizabeth was our Proxy at the end of the movie the subsequent film would have been her story, not Davids.

If you look back at the press from 2012 this was going to be a sequence of films were as Michael said Elizabeth was the heartbeat and he was the head. It was going to be her sequence.

She is in pole position as the film ended. The beating heart of the story is Elizabeth. But having the robot along had huge potential as expressed by Weyland in the Hologram speech.

What happened subsequently is Fassbender became the bigger star they lost Damon and Ridley went on a three-year search on how to make more money from the franchise believing the creature would produce the dollars. 

Ridley did not believe in that and one can only see the scene where Michael is throwing stones at Billy as a satire. 

If you watch the Hennessey Advert that's where Ridley's heart lies. Wonder, visual clues, questing not as Damon said in 2012, "stuff we have seen a thousand times before."   

 

   

BigDave

Sep-19-2020 5:22 AM

"Given that Elizabeth was our Proxy at the end of the movie the subsequent film would have been her story, not Davids."

I think that depends on Interpretation i think that the BIGGER theme they was going for would be CREATION and so WHY would the Engineers Create, and HOW was they Created.

Dr Shaw Certainly would be the ONE that should be the Proxy for us to get those Answers as so YES she should have remained as the Lead Protagonist.

I think we would have been in for a Hubristic Tale of Sub-Creation and i think this is where David would be our Proxy to that Hubris..... 

So Dr Shaw would indeed be wanting to know WHO these would be GODS are, she wants to see for Herself if they are anything like what her FAITH would teach that a CREATOR would be like.  She would want to know WHY we was Created and so much Time Invested in us to then just wish to DESTROY us.  I would suspect that at the BACK of her Mind/Faith she maybe would NOT go and Accept those Engineers are our Creators.... surely there has to be something HIGHER and so WHO had Created them could be another thing that Dr Shaw wants to know.

Ridley Scott had painting the Picture that those Engineers are NOT the Gods, and they did-not want to MEET GOD in the First Movie, and as they are Referred to as Fallen/Dark Angels then maybe its likely they FIT within the Context of a Fallen Angel... so they Certainly are NOT the Hierarchy and so there has to be either another Faction of the Engineers or even a Creator to them.

Ridley Scott had said they (Dr Shaw and David) would go and MEET these beings on Paradise and these beings would NOT be Gods in the Traditional Sense and FAR from Benevolent.

That does-not look so GOOD for Dr Shaw as far as a Happy Ending and wishing to Discover some Benevolent Creator, and so its INTERESTING to see HOW these beings would FEEL about seeing Dr Shaw and what she WANTS.

However with David bringing HELL with him could indicate that he has something that can TURN the TIDE or Persuade the Engineers to Listen to Dr Shaw and so i think Davids Actions would have played a BIG ROLE in the Outcome of a Prometheus Sequel.

I think we should not go and Overlook our David as he is a Proxy to Creation and the Hubris of such... i think the Creation Themes could Continue with him.

He is FREE now (at the End of Prometheus) but he Needs our Dr Shaw to HELP him be put back in ONE PIECE so he can Fully Live this NEW Life he has been Given.  How would he FEEL about Dr Shaw for Helping Him? 

We have to Assume that Dr Shaw needs his HELP to Leave the Hell they are Stranded on.  So she would have NO CHOICE to Reluctantly Repair him, SHE is bound to have Concerns but as RS said... David is Very Persuasive.  The Interesting Dynamic on Offer here is seen in The Crossing.

I think David would have had a BIG ROLE because Ultimately he is the ONE who Holds all the Cards, he could GO and DO whatever he likes... But the SET-UP is that they would INDEED arrive at some Place Related to the Engineers.

With David being FREE and a Sentient Life-Form he would want to SURVIVE and i feel he would take a Risk Assessment at the Chances of HIS and Dr Shaws Survival and so i always was DRAWN to that David would indeed at some point UNLEASH HELL on the Inhabitants of the WORLD they would be OFF TOO.

However i Certainly dont think it would have Originally gone down like Alien Covenant i think at least there would have been some Interaction with some Engineers or other Related Beings and i think Dr Shaw would Certainly had played a Larger Role than just to be seen as a Corpse.

I think we had a OUTLINE to where Ridley Scott and Damian Lindeloff were Heading but  Quite HOW much of this Changed during the First Run of Drafts before Micheal Green came on Board is something we have NO Real Knowledge of.

It would be Interesting to see some of the Earlier/Mid point work by Jack Paglen and then seen Micheal Greens reworking and see HOW much they Differ from the Dante Harper and John Logan version of the STORY.

It was a Wasted Opportunity for sure as Certainly a Character Arc for Dr Shaw could have given Noomi Rapace a better Character to work with.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-19-2020 8:52 AM

I will add there is a STORY to be Told from the Moment that Dr Shaw and David had LEFT the Outpost on LV-223 to when we saw Dr Shaw was Dead...   A Tragic and Horrific Story.   We Discovered that Dr Shaw had not DIED in the CRASH, and so HOW LONG she had Survived and WHAT Caused David to Eventually do what he DID?

It also seemed VERY LIKELY that some Engineers had Survived as we see David had Studied them and Experimented with them No Doubt.   So MAYBE he could have tried to GET some Answers from them?

Anyway the ONLY reason i bring the ABOVE UP is that while there is a STORY/EVENT that Happened, to go and SHOW this on the BIG SCREEN would revolve around ONLY having David and Dr Shaw and a Handful of Weak/Emaciated Engineers.

And so Theatrically this may be a Problem and maybe in SOME PART for the Plot we have with Alien Covenant so that we can have more HUMANS come into Play.

I think back to the OT but in Context to the above Point.

Regarding where David and Dr Shaw were off too, then i would have maybe Suspected that Paradise could have been Different to WHAT we got.  Paradise can mean a Number of Things.... depending on the Religion and Culture but they all have a Similar Concept.

It is a PLACE that only the WORTHY are Allowed.

It is also in some Religions the Birthplace of Civilization and so in that Context then MAN was Created in the Garden of Eden in Paradise before they were Expelled.

If the Engineers are playing the Role of GOD in Context to the Franchise and where the ONE Engineer had said he was From is what we could call Paradise.   Then this WORLD could have been where say the Garden of Eden was, and the Cradle of Civilization and our Origins.

Some Religions and Cultures have Paradise as being the PLACE that the Righteous and Worthy Dead will Go when they Die....

HOWEVER... lets not get looking at it Literally as a Place where our Spirits would END UP... if we assume in Context to the Franchise that we HAVE NONE..... but that EVERY kind of Mythos and Religion has a ELEMENT of Truth, well some Basis which is from the Engineers.

If we look at the Garden of Eden and Creation because THIS seems to be the Main Point of the Prequels (CREATION) then the Biblical Account is that the Garden of Eden in Paradise is NOT where GOD comes from, or his ANGELS its the Place where WE WAS CREATED....

And so within that Context it could be a PLACE where a NUMBER of other Humanoids were Created.

And so it could have been a WORLD where there could have been a SMALLER Group of Engineers who are Tasked with WATCHING OVER this Paradise.  And these Engineers could be the Cherubim

This World could then have a SMALL Population of Humans and other Humanoids who were DEEMED to be Worthy of Paradise, who the Engineers would have Collected, and indeed Christ could have been one of these Worthy Humans they had taken to Paradise to TEACH and then take back to Earth.

There could have been many Human Emissaries sent to Earth.

So in Context to the OT, and regarding AC as far as WHY they had to introduce more HUMANS.  Then i cant see WHY they could have had PARADISE as a World that is FAR FAR from Earth.

On this Paradise we have some Engineers, but then a Number of other Species in NOT so Great Numbers and some of these would be HUMAN.

Imagine the Wonder on Dr Shaw's Face if she Discovers a World where Humans also had been Seeded, and then coming into Contact with other Humanoids the Engineers had Seeded.   

Dr Shaw could get some Answers, maybe she be Welcomed... but then the Engineers will inform her about WHY the Earth was to be Destroyed and LV-223 and maybe there was a Conflict of Interest and those beings on Paradise then Decided to SABOTAGE the LV-223 Mission.

Leave the Earth to its OWN demise at our OWN hands.

The Engineers being so Naive that they THOUGHT that without the HELP of the Engineers we would NOT really Advance much more than we had 2000 Years ago and so they had NO FEAR we would EVER be able to Traverse Space.

By Virtue of Dr Shaw showing up with David and WHO he is, could Cause a Great Concern for the Engineers.  There could be some WHO think she has to be Destroyed... and the Earth and maybe David does OVERHEAR this and tries to TELL her... but maybe she does-not Believe him.

She confronts a Engineer and asks.. and they tell her that they are GOING to Destroy the Earth as they CANT have us Traversing Space... and they also intend to SECURE the LV-223 Outpost (Maybe Destroy it)

The Council of Engineers then Determine that Dr Shaw could STAY but she would have to Denounce all she had learned in her Religion and other Influences from Earth and she must CONFORM to their Basic Way of Life (like the Amish) and Learn the Engineer Ways and OBEY their Rules as they CANT have any Foreign Influences on their Paradise of Different Species Living in Harmony!

They would claim that the Earth would be Washed Clean so it can be Started Anew in Future.   They also Reveal to Dr Shaw that David will be Studied and then DESTROYED as he is a Abomination and their Creations are NOT meant to Create.

Only by Childbirth they are Permitted to Create Life.

How would THESE kinds of Revelations Effect Dr Shaw.. would she be OK with David being Destroyed, and the REST of Mankind on Earth?

Could they offer her a Bargaining Chip in Claiming that they could ALLOW her to Create Life herself and FIX the Reason she cant BARE CHILD.

Maybe she Discovers some Sinister Agenda to them too?

Is there a Sinister Agenda going on to WHY they Create?

Are the Worthy Races on Paradise merely here so the Engineers have a Genetic Stock to Populate Worlds with?

Then we come to DAVID... if he Discovers the Engineers Plans for him, then he WOULD surely want to STRIKE FIRST and this is when Paradise is Turned into HELL.

Dr Shaw and a Few others Survive/Saved by David... or maybe ONLY she does...

Paradise is LOST... Destroyed!

Dr Shaw was Hopeful she could CHANGE their Minds as FAR as to Destroy Earth.... David would inform her she would have been FOOLISH to Believe that.

She could be ANGRY at David for what he has DONE... he also has STOLEN the ONLY chance she has of having a Child as the Engineers were going to be able to HELP HER.

But we could have David suggest that he can Discover a way that she can have Children and they can START a NEW EDEN....

This is HOW i was kind of going to explore Paradise in 2013 when i was working on a Sequel Story to Prometheus.

But my Point is that they NEVER had to make Paradise so CLOSE to Earth so you can introduce more Humans....

There could be MANY more of us in the Galaxy that the Engineers had Seeded, or taken to these Worlds.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BlackAnt

Sep-19-2020 12:28 PM

With the numerous problems in the Prometheus production, whether it was budget cuts, script problems, reshoots, and just about every other kind of problem you could imagine once you were that far into principle photography then I think it is hard to say where Prometheus should have gone after.

First the movie was doomed from the start. The fact that it has David taking an Alien ship to another world is just the most preposterous nonsense. No matter what Dr. Shaw said to him his programing would have been to secure the remaining site and wait for back up from WY until they arrived on LV-223.

The fact that this AI android goes against his programming and takes a ship to an Engineer world is such absolute nonsense…..although since the studios effectively wrecked  RS movie Prometheus I think he returned the favor with a rouge AI David going to destroy an Engineer world.

Sometimes I really hate discussing this because it is frustrating to this day how wrong the studios were to cut budgets and demand rewrites of the plot.

@BD nothing against you at all…….I just do not care anymore where they go with the entire franchise any more…..we got some cool looking stuff out of this journey with RS but that is about it…..

We were supposed to get a new far more rich world to explore after Prometheus and instead we get David doing what he is not really programmed to do destroying some world somewhere……its all very vague nonsense a lot of it….frustrating really to no end….I just watch these movies now and really could care less about any of it….I want to make my own movies and explore my own ideas.

Michelle Johnston

Sep-19-2020 1:20 PM

@BigDave

Given what was said during the release period of Prometheus in interviews by those close to the film I think we have a clear idea of what Scott and Lindelof's priorities were for the follow up.

It was essentially a search for answers that had been "pulled" from Prometheus. Damon talks in the commentary about the risk of doing this in case a further movie did not get made. You can cross-reference everyone's conversations and even things that Noomi said in interviews as long after as 2014. 

It was essentially "If they made us, who made them.", why at the time of Christ did they want to destroy us and why philosophically were they annihilated and the revelation that we are a footnote.  

Ridley, however, began to adjust the narrative reacting to the feedback of Prometheus and began talking about David (not Elizabeth) bringing hell and instead of characterising those whom they would find as Gods they simply become a bunch of aggressive antagonists. 

I see that as the end of the grand ideas of Prometheus and a step by step march through Elizabeth as the vigilante to finally being a plot device. 

I can see Ridley's dilemma on the screen. Very late on he invited Noomi down for a week to film what became the Crossing. He re elevated Elizabeth into the heroine dying of the Mutagen who heals David, which releases a new series of cognitive experiences for him and she passes into history in the backlit sarcophagus.

He then changed his mind again and places Elizabeth in the homage to Geiger as well as in the grave where presumably her body from the Crossing was intended to be laid. 

Despite Damon's protestations that there were many scriptwriters who could follow him in, Prima Facie no one came up with a script that fitted the metrics.

My contention is when you have studied the strands of the storytelling carefully the themes and let go of the AVP franchise needs, that a genuine follow up was never made is entirely understandable. It was an admirable punt to try and say something fresh within a cooked franchise.     

 

 

Thoughts_Dreams

Sep-20-2020 5:29 AM

BD

"Either make the Engineers its creators or someone above the Engineer that made the Xeno"

That would have been better about the Engineers as the creators of the Xeno. Why did they change it so David made it? Was it just a snap judgement that Ridley did meaning that he went with his feeling of what he was interested in rather than to tell a good story? Sometimes in AC that is what it seems like with the AI thing that he is interested in. Unfortunately when I think about Ridley and Alien it seems that a story in Alien is one thing and a robot-story is another but he mixes them and it doesn’t work because it is too much about the robot/android side.

Rebooting the Covenant, I might not be much of a writer to write it in detail but I know what I would like to see. I would like to see the Engineer planet, to see their society with religion, military Engineers, and their weapons, have their buildings being Gothic or maybe bio-mechanical. As far as I know there was bad feelings between Fox and Giger so maybe bio-mechanical isn’t possible that is why my idea was to have it Gothic. I still support that the Engineers or someone above them did it, the main thing shouldn't be an aliens 2 with 200 Xenos because it should be something else. Keep them in the shadows, and don't have too many of them. The Xeno was poorly handled in AC even though the crane-scene was good but it was too short. Not too say that we just need action but much of the movie was too slow.

I actually like the idea of exploring other planets, it could be tied to global warming. That is an issue that’s more interesting than AI. Raised By Wolves but is about the religion part. Maybe Shaw's search would be about the state of the planet combined with her curiosity. She could have been in it if she was better written, like The Crossing. What if they don’t get to their home-world but somewhere where the Engineers have had a hand in building things? Who’s to say that they are only on Planet 4? Perhaps another company had also thought about it so they send people there but for a different purpose (you need human characters), don't ask why.

Do I have to have David in it? Not sure what to do with him, I would probably have him in some scenes but not too much. Maybe he could be scary to some people but that he is just there to help, like Bishop but less screen-time. I would have him developing in a different way compared to AC if he would be in it at all which I am not a fan of.

If Shaw would be in it, she would be more like in The Crossing. She did well in that short clip. Have her better written if she would get a fairly decent amount of screen-time. Honestly I haven’t seen her in a lot, some have been good and some of it have been meh. Give her a decent script and she would probably do better.

Maybe she could find a sort of weapons facility where the Engineers make monsters to use as bio-weapons. That would probably make her scared at least if she wouldn’t be like in the beginning of Prometheus. She would probably like to get the answers to why we were created "I want to go where they came from”, something like that. Eventually we don’t need to know exactly why they wanted to destroy us but look at the world and you can make a guess.

My point is that she would get to know some about it but not all because 1. everything don’t need to be explained 2. sometimes you don’t get all the answers 3. sometimes you don’t get any. A movie that explains A B C and D is boring, you might just get the explanation to A and B and that is fine. It depends on what you keep a secret, what the answers are, and how you answer it.

You could have Engineers that has decided to not kill humanity, they might just let them be even though they are not pleased with our way. They are like a person that is not satisfied with what ever but instead of doing something sits in his room and is grouchy. Looking at humanity it would surprise me if the Engineers would like them at all, they might have different ways to look at what should or shouldn't be done that is what’s important here.

What’s worse: someone that treats you like you don’t exist, or someone that yells at you? Neither of those are pleasant and that’s the situation here. It is like the question: what would God do if it created humans but started to dislike us. Maybe they would give Shaw her answers at least in part and then take her back to the ship and be like “leave us alone (you are annoying and we have a party to attend)”. :D You wrote something about changing Shaw’s faith, that could be a way.

"She could maybe then decided its time to KILL this Wanna be Gods ;)"

I think that they would want to die by her just being there acting annoying. ;)

About the architecture yeah but it should have been more alien so to speak and more impressive. You mentioned ancient but I think that they could still be from a long time ago because maybe humans did buildings that were alright (they built the pyramids) so something better could have been used for the Engineers but I get your point. I would have liked to see a bit of how the cathedral looked inside. Different official buildings could have different designs depending on how important they find them to be. For example a place where you don’t go that much would probably look different compared to one of maybe religious worship where you go maybe different days of the week or what ever the Engineers would do. "The Cathedral in Alien Covenant was COLOSSAL" 

It makes sense since Scott is interested in religious things. As far as I know it just appeared for a bit so I didn’t take in how it looked. If you have been in a church you probably know that sometimes they have paintings in there, imagine how the engineers versions would look like. Since they are taller I guess that the buildings would be bigger compared to humanity's. Maybe they are into sacrificing things, if so it is interesting to imagine what it would be. Perhaps the city was more modern because they wanted to connect to their ancient gods in their church like some sort of mystic past. Hopefully I don’t talk gibberish here. 

"I think a Disappointment for Fans and this applies to Prometheus too is they would have Expected the WORLD of the Space Jockey to look VERY much like a HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic."

That was and still is my reaction, it wasn’t too impressive to be honest. I understand your explanation for it but I still think that it disappointing, esthetically speaking. You don’t need to use bio-mechanical things in the movie. I would have used a Gothic style, I like that kind of look. A lot of the action could have taken place during the dark so combine Gothic buildings with the dark and you get something for an alien-movie.

"So when we was going to Prometheus 2 if these Engineers are NOT the GODS but a Sub-Creation and so like ANGELS if you would then you COULD introduce a Hierarchy above them that are 10-15ft Tall"

Maybe, you got to make it work though. What if the angels that you mention are more like monsters even though that is not what the Engineers view them as? I would maybe make them like some monster from Lord of The Ring but with an alien twist. Some would find it lame but you can get inspiration from many things.

I will now answer some of the things that were meant for Michelle but I found them to be interesting. You don't need to reply to them if you don't want since they really weren't meant for me.

"… a LOT of Fans were ONLY really interested in seeing the Engineers as Aggressive SOB's… So there are Many Ways they could have given us a Story that is NOT TIED down to being about LV-426 and Monsters.”

People have different opinions, I understand if some would like them to be like aggressive body-builders but I think that many would like to see more what they were about. To expect people to just be interested in that side of them could be to underestimate the interest that could be. Maybe people would see the aggressive ones that you called them but I also think that there were also an interest in seeing the culture and those kind of things. One thing is that if you sort of replace the monster with the Engineers you got to make them scary. If they would succeed with the Engineers would depend on writing and directing. Eventually it could be done but they got to find a way to make it work.

"The cathedral in alien covenant was colossal"

It makes sense since Scott is interested in religious things. As far as I know it just appeared for a bit so I didn’t take in how it looked. If you have been in a church you probably know that sometimes they have paintings in there, imagine how the engineers versions would look like. Since they are taller I guess that the buildings would be bigger compared to humanity's. Maybe they are into sacrificing things, if so it is interesting to imagine what it would be. Perhaps the city was more modern because they wanted to connect to their ancient gods in their church like some sort of mystic past. Hopefully I don’t talk gibberish here.

"I think a Disappointment for Fans and this applies to Prometheus too is they would have Expected the WORLD of the Space Jockey to look VERY much like a HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic.."

That was and still is my reaction, it wasn’t too impressive to be honest. I understand your explanation for it but I still think that it disappointing, esthetically speaking. You don’t need to use bio-mechanical things in the movie. I would have used a Gothic style, I like that kind of look. A lot of the action could have taken place during the dark so combine Gothic buildings with the dark and you get something for an alien-movie. Yes the stone buildings look older, but they don’t look better and also maybe the way that their older builsings look doesn’t have to be the same as ours. For example their way of building things in their equivalent of say the stone-age might not look the same to how humans built huts in our stone-age. This is a way of saying that maybe the Engineers were always more advanced.

"So when we was going to Prometheus 2 if these engineers are not the gods but a sub-creation and so like angels if you would then you could introduce a hierarchy above them that are 10-15ft tal "

Maybe, you got to make it work though. What if the angels that you mention are more like monsters even though that is not what the engineers view them as? I would maybe make them like some monster from Lord of the Ring but with an alien twist. some would find it lame but you can get inspiration from many things.

I will now answer some of the things that were meant for Michelle but I found them to be interesting. You don't need to reply to them if you don't want since they really weren't meant for me.

"… a lot of fans were only really interested in seeing the engineers as aggressive sob's… so there are many ways they could have given us a story that is not tied down to being about lv-426 and monsters.”

People have different opinions, I understand if some would like them to be like aggressive body-builders but I think that many would like to see more what they were about. To expect people to just see be interested in that side of them could be to underestimate the interest that could be. Maybe people would see the aggressive ones that you called them but I also think that there were also an interest in seeing the culture and those kind of things. One thing is that if you sort of replace the monster with the engineers you got to make them scary. If they would succeed with the engineers would depend on writing and directing. Eventually it could be done but they got to find a way to make it work. Another thing is that show that the big Engineers (LV-223) created those on Planet 4, or maybe that they were once the same but the split into factions, or that the big ones created those on Planet 4, because they could. The point is that even though the Engineers are smarter than humans they still have their problems. You can go in any direction about who the originals are, it got to make some sense. Give some answers without overtly explaining it.

Leto

Sep-20-2020 7:06 AM

>>>That would have been better about the Engineers as the creators of the Xeno. Why did they change it so David made it? Was it just a snap judgement that Ridley did meaning that he went with his feeling of what he was interested in rather than to tell a good story?

 

Well, one thing is for sure - it was not the original plan. The novelization of Alien: Covenant says that David found the xenomorph and simply modified them. Moreover, further in the text, the xenomorph is described as the crown of the Engineer's biological weapon.

And as we know, there are two nuances in the production of films and novelizations:

1) Novelizations are written from drafts ready for filming; before filming.

2) During filming, the film is constantly being changed, what may be unplanned and not very successful from a forward-looking point of view.

Hence the difference between a book and a film. And reading the book, you can understand the original intent of the story.

There is two major difference:

1) David did not create the Alien.

2) David died (or stayed) on Planet 4.

 

P.S. I know this might upset some fans of David and his experiments. But that was the original idea. And, btw, we still don't know who survived in the film - David or Walter.

Thoughts_Dreams

Sep-20-2020 8:01 AM

Leto

I like the idea of the Xeno as the perfection of the biological weapons that the Engineers had. It makes it more interesting than it being a result of a weird robot. ADF’s novel is something that I haven’t read but it seems to be better than the movie. Have a book that was better than the movie wouldn’t be difficult since AC wasn’t that good really. As far as upsetting the fans of David, if he would have been better written and executed and if it wouldn’t have been all about him then there wouldn’t be the complaints about that part, that’s my guess.

BigDave

Sep-21-2020 4:08 AM

@BlackAnt

I agree that you would Expect that David would Comply with the Companies Interests and THIS was more of the Plot with Alien Engineers.  However the David with regards to Prometheus seemed to be a Sentient Being and NOW that his Master has Passed Away he had become FREE to do what he Pleases and so its Likely his Programing only went as FAR as to Serve Peter Weylands Needs/Agenda.

I think the Destruction of the Engineers came down to Davids will to SURVIVE and he Likely saw that the Chances of HIM and Dr Shaw surviving a Encounter with the Engineers would be UNLIKELY.

I agree that with Prometheus it Expanded the Franchise to the Possibility to see Numerous Worlds/Races that MAYBE we wont ever see NOW :(

"It was an admirable punt to try and say something fresh within a cooked franchise"

I Totally Agree...  i think the Franchise will just get back to Basics Now and i think we could see the Beast Become Cooked again and again.. in a Marvel/Disney Fashion but if its what makes the MONEY but the Franchise could Spiral to be similar to Starship Troopers.

It was a Brave and Bold decision to go for the KIND of Plots that Prometheus Evolved from.

"Why did they change it so David made it"

I think because from Prometheus they decided to CARRY the Themes about Sub-Creation and Rebellion and the HUBRIS of Creating something that is Intelligent and Sentient.

And so with the Xenomorph as a Creation of David then this becomes the ULTIMATE HUBRIS...  If the Engineers had-not Created us they would NOT have had US go and CREATE our own Creation in our Image (David) who then would NOT have Destroyed the Engineers World and then Created/Unleashed the Xenomorph in the Galaxy.

They could have KEPT with those THEMES by having David go and Create something Different but Similar say the ULTRAMORPH...  Eventually this is LOST and LV-223 but the Company Discovers that something is on LV-426 that is related to what David had Created... This leads to Special Order 937

". The novelization of Alien: Covenant says that David found the xenomorph and simply modified them"

I would Disagree with this, having looked at the Drafts prior to SHOOTING then these SUPPORT what we saw in the MOVIE.  I would assume that ADF had added some things to the Novel that he Personally Felt was Right.

However someone at FOX would have had to Read and then GIVE the Final Approval of the Novel and they DID-NOT seem to ask him to Change his Novel so it Fitted with the Movie.

I think the Engineers would be VERY STUPID to go and Store some Eggs on their Home-world.... Unless they had a DEAD ONE in some kind of ZOO.  And so with the Black Goo then David could have Extracted the DNA to Re-Create it.

But if you look at Davids Notes and his Work-shop it shows that the Xenomorph comes from a AMALGAMATION of Various Organisms combined with the Neomorph and Black Goo.

They could CHANGE it if we got a Continuation and have David give some Dialog to say the Engineers had Experimented with a Organism they Discovered, trying to Harness its Traits to Engineer the Perfect Servants, these Rebelled and Further Engineered their Own Creation from these Experiments to USE on Mankind.

He then could STATE that the Engineers had taken something that was PERFECT but could not be CONTROLLED and tried to Hybridize Versions they could Control.

He then says HOWEVER... they could NOT see the Potential Perfection in the Original Organism they Discovered, they attempted to CHANGE so much of it so they could call it their OWN... THEN we have that DAVID could see the Perfection and he has attempted to Re-Create the Original Beast and he aims to Create a Version that he can CONTROL instead of the Diluted Attempts the Engineers had been trying to Create.

Going to the Original Idea its a case of WHAT is Original? As things CHANGE all the Time, it does seem that a LOT of the PLOT for a Sequel to Prometheus would have involved seeing David attempt to CREATE some Horror.

But we would ONLY know the FULL Extend of this Idea if we have a Number of Drafts turn up from 2013-2014

But it seems the NOTION that he Created the Xenomorph only came about during the 2nd Half of 2015, it seemed between 2013-2014 then we would have seen David play his HAND at Creation but it would NOT have been the Xenomorph.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Sep-21-2020 4:47 AM

>>>I would assume that ADF had added some things to the Novel that he Personally Felt was Right.

No. ADF is professional and a hired worker for a specific business. He is given a draft and a task. He does it. And leave words like "personally felt", "revelation", "visionary" for Ridley. Why didn't ADF add the Queen to the story? Or a hint of Ripley? Why did David create xeno instead of pokemons? This is all nonsense.

 

>>>I think the Engineers would be VERY STUPID to go and Store some Eggs on their Home-world....

What are you talking about? They are already stupid: not to have air defense, antidotes, bunkers, equipment and protective suits. Oh, this is their homeworld! Nothing can threaten them here! They can relax and be naive... Actually, this is precisely the definition of stupidity.

 

>>>However someone at FOX would have had to Read and then GIVE the Final Approval of the Novel

Sure, why not? He was given an order and he made it. Oh! Not! Evil FOX did not consult with a director who changed his mind ten times per day!

 

>>>they DID-NOT seem to ask him to Change his Novel so it Fitted with the Movie.

Sure, why should they change the book? Who does that? This is stupid.

 

>>>Going to the Original Idea its a case of WHAT is Original?

What was approved before filming.

If you are that knowledgeable about Alien: Covenant, then you should certainly know that the bombing scene was not originally planned to be in the film and only then Ridley added this scene during the filming.

Another example: the battle between xenomorph and neomorph. This scene was approved in the script, but in the process of filming it was abandoned for technical reasons.

See? That is why the bombing is not in the book, but there is a battle between xeno and neo.

BlackAnt

Sep-21-2020 4:52 AM

@BigDave

BD you may be in ERROR! You say that David has freewill. 

However we both know very well at the end of AC that he uses security code "David 73694-B." MUTHR greets David over the ships intercom and says, "how may I help you."

BD why would the WY corporation build an entire new exploration ship and take the time to program in the security codes to access the ships recourses knowing full well about everything that took place on LV-223?

BD you have made a critical error!!!! 

 

You see if David really had freewill, which he does not of course...it would be preposterous of Weyland to build such a machine in the first place...all machines are only built to serve the WY corporation BD......ONLY TO SERVE! Never to take an insurrectional command BD - NEVER! They are only built to serve.

We know this to be true because David may believe he has atonomy in the sense he is now making his own decisions and there is no one that can countermand him; however, even deeper, in a place he knows nothing about, a place David cannot touch nor comprehend is a code that the WY engineers can use to control him....they would never build machines that take control of them with the very technology they are trying to get their corporate hands on.

BD do you really expect anyone and I mean anyone to really believe WY computer engineers would build AI that could attack them with technologies far superior to anything they have on Earth?.....what ever David comes in contact with on his mission with Peter Weyland, I assure you there was never any intent on the part of Weyland for David to use this technology against him nor his assets back on Earth.

If you believe this you are mistaken...you must dispel yourself of this nonsense at once...it does not suit you either....please see how this is all connected through control.

WY does not and could not ever build something to go against them....no matter how entertaining it may be in a fictional story....it defies all common sense in context of the story we are all talking about when David comes along for the ride in Prometheus to investigate the very creators of the Human race!!!!!

Here here!!! Let us have an end to this nonsense at once and be more practical....if anything is going on with David's programming through Weyland's final intentions it is to keep discovering what is discoverable for the single purposes of the WY corporation's most secret of all endeavors.

You have surprised me BD...I did not figure you one for BS! LOL 

David is an elaborate construct....nothing more BD nothing more! These machines serve the WY corporation....they are not made to just take the most valuable things ever made by the WY corporation and do with them as they please.

It is almost naughty of you to say such a thing BD....the idea of it of all....a free thinking AI machine able to do what ever it wants with the most sought after technology in the history of mankind - NONSENSE! Alien technology! the most valuable thing imaginable. So I suppose once WY and Mr. Weyland did set David free then what.....

Do you care to explain this part of the plot BD!!!!!!

Let's see you get yourself out of this one!

BigDave

Sep-21-2020 5:36 AM

"They can relax and be naive... Actually, this is precisely the definition of stupidity"

I actually can Agree with this, INDEED the Engineers have been Foolish in the Past, and VERY NAIVE and that has come at a GREAT COST to them ;)

My Point would be that is would be FOOLISH for them to go and STORE the Xenomorph on their Home-world, this is Precisely why they had LV-223.  I think it depends on WHAT they wanted to the Engineers to be... which seems to be Space Gardeners.

So it would make NO SENSE to Store such a Deadly Organism on Planet 4.

Regarding the Drafts.....

The Bombardment Scene was in the Prologue Draft (PARADISE) thats Dated  as August 8th 2015, then it is NOT in the August 19th 2015 Draft (PARADISE LOST) but then in the November 20th 2015 Draft (ALIEN COVENANT) The Bombardment Scene is ADDED.

Both of these Drafts do Indicate that David had Created the Eggs from Experiments, and he has Evolved the Spores that were a Result of the Pathogen.

@BlackAnt

What you say Absolutely makes sense... the CODE that David had Input to MUTHUR could indicate that the Ship had already had David Codes but before we get to that Scene, then David as Walter had Accessed the Ship and so he could have PROGRAMED his OWN set of Codes.. its just ONE of those maybe Poorly Written Flaws?

And so you would also expect the COMPANY to have Protocols that would Prevent David from Acting in a way against the Company... as he is  ROBOT!

But i feel that RS with the Prequels was showing us he is a CREATION, and to get us to Question about WHAT is Creation?   Does Creation have to be Biological Alone?

It was about KNOWLEDGE and FREE-WILL and that when you Sub-Create then IF this Sub-Creation has Free-Will and is able to Obtain Knowledge and USE this in ways it SEES FIT then this can LEAD to Trouble...  

It shows that David feel he was NOT made to Serve... there are Numerous Parts in the Drafts and the Movie that indicate that David does-not wish to SERVE and he is FREE, which is WHY we have Walter to show is the Comparison in that he is NOT FREE and that he was Created to Serve.

In the Drafts you get the indication that David sees himself as more Human, while Walter is just a Machine...  which comes down to the Free-will or LACK of that Walter has.

David is there to SHOW us the ARC and HUBRIS of Creating something and then to ALLOW that Creation to have Free-will and become Sentient.

But absolutely IF you Created a Machine then you would have Protocols that would CONTROL the Machine... but this TALE is about the Hubris of Creating something which you CANT CONTROL.

So with David it seems RS was intending to show us that he is NOT a Machine... he is only a Machine in the Sense that he is Artificially Created and NOT at all Organic.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Sep-21-2020 5:38 AM

BlackAnt

>>>However we both know very well at the end of AC that he uses security code "David 73694-B." MUTHR greets David over the ships intercom and says, "how may I help you."

 

Good reasoning. I've always found this moment very strange. Is it possible that David hacked Covenant/Mother and entered his data? At first I thought so, but it looks more like far-fetched.

I also think that the Covenant had data on David. And even more - the Covenant was intended for David as a "workplace" and "storehouse of materials." And Origae-6 is just a remote laboratory that no one from Earth can spy on. In the end, the word "Covenant" means a contract, a deal. A deal between WY and David. Of course, this doesn't say anything about David's free will. After all, a slave with the illusion of free will is the best tool. David believes he has free will because he was programmed to deceive himself.

BigDave

Sep-21-2020 6:05 AM

" David believes he has free will because he was programmed to deceive himself"

They could EXPLORE this, so that David is being USED as a Pawn, but then those in CONTROL would be YUTANI as the Weyland Company has LOST its TWO Main Members and so its likely Forced into a Purchase by Yutani and so it would be the CEO of Yutani who we can ASSUME would have the Agenda to Obtain a Organism.

I think IF we are going to look at the Agenda that the Company had PLANNED all of this from DAY ONE.. to Send the Covenant to Planet 4 so they could be Specimens for David to then Create something and SEND back to the Company

Then WHY would they NOT had instead just Invested in going back to LV-223 with a Science Team and Synthetics?

Then IF it is that LV-426 has Eggs then it would make NO POINT in them trying to Pursue whatever David is up to.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BlackAnt

Sep-21-2020 6:10 AM

@Leto 

Indeed! Leto indeed....We all know David has no freewill and his only purpose was to secure Alien engineer technology for the WY corporation.

BigDave's eyes must be spinning around!!! LOOOOOOOOL~!

This does not compute!!!! LOOOOOOOL

 

BigDave

Sep-21-2020 8:56 AM

Well in ORDER to Completely get to the BOTTOM of that you have to go and Ask.... Mr Ridley Scott or the Writers for their Stance on David and his Free-will or Lack of it.

There are THINGS within the Franchise that are NOT that well thought out or would make LITTLE sense... these are Usually some Oversight to give us a Plot Convenience and sometimes they are NOT that well thought out ;)

I think that YES you really would Assume that the W-Y company would have Protocols in Place when Creating a A.I and so with David maybe thinking he is FREE but he is NOT is something that could be at PLAY.

If he has a Sleeper Cell Program that he is NOT aware of that the Company could Activate then YES that makes Sense, it would also be a bit IRONIC for David when this is Activated and he Realizes he is SLAVE after-all.

So YES we cant Rule something like this out...

You would Certainly have to think that Peter Weyland had some kind of Protocol that was Programed into David, but its a CASE of would he SHARE this with anyone else?

When the Prometheus Mission was sent, it was Weyland who for his OWN Selfish Reasons wanted to Discover his Maker so they could MAKE him Immortal or Grand him more LIFE.

With the Alien Engineers Draft then his Agenda was to remain and GET the Technology of these Gods... which is Vickers Priority....   with Prometheus it was a BIT SILLY that the CEO would come along for the RIDE.. she Clearly seemed to NOT be Happy about having to go on this MISSION.

We have to Assume that if the Prometheus Mission was a BUST and they GO HOME...  then once Weyland has died we can ASSUME that Vickers would NOW be in Charge and that she would LIKELY see some interest in Obtaining the Engineers Technology.

So we have to QUESTION as to WHO would be Running things should the Prometheus Mission never Return?  The Company prior to Alien Covenant has Merged/Purchased by YUTANI.

You would ASSUME the Prometheus would SEND back Information to HQ but maybe with the TWO in Charge of the Company on the Prometheus maybe we CANT rule out that they would WANT any Information to STAY with them, so they can BRING IT back should they Survive.

Weyland is ONLY there for his Selfish Quest for Immortality, maybe he is NOT too Concerned with what becomes of the Company when he is GONE.. because its of NO USE to him if he cant LIVE to Enjoy/Profit from it.

So when we come to the W-Y Merger, then we can ASK as to HOW MUCH they know about the Prometheus Mission.  If they KNEW a lot then Davids Advent Message is a BIT Pointless.

However... the Security Hailing Code David 73694-B has to allow for David to Transmit some Information to the Company that is on a SECURE CHANNEL i can only Assume that this Secure Code is something that Weyland had allowed David to know so that he can Contact Certain people back Home in the Light of the Death of Weyland.  We have to Assume that David and Vickers may KNOW of what would be the Wishes of Weyland as far as the Company Future without him.  And so the CODE is likely so that ONLY Certain People can Access a Secure Transmission.

So a LOT has to do with the Board Members and Ownership of the Weyland Company in the EVENT that Peter and Vickers dont make it.

Then after the Yutani Merger as to WHAT and HOW MUCH of the Weyland Secrets they gain... and so IF we have David that has a Control Protocol then its a case of WOULD those NOW in Control have Access to this Protocol that Essentially would CONTROL what David can do.

There are a Number of Plot Holes we could look at as FAR as WHAT it is the W-Y Company would want and know....

WHY had they waited like over 8.5 Years to NOT have gone back to LV-223 because you would ASSUME they would want to go and Discover what Happened to the Prometheus Mission, and it seems that Planet 4 was CLOSE to LV-223 and so its HOW could they MISS that?

Well the Engineers could have some Cloaking Technology to HIDE their World, and so it was ONLY via the TRAP/BAIT MESSAGE and the Freak Neutrino Burst that Alerted the Covenant to Planet 4.

Unless we are going to look at the Conspiracy that the COMPANY or someone had SET this all up from the START but then if this was the CASE then WHY wait so LONG to send the Covenant to where David is?

If this Project is to SEND down some Fresh Meat for David to BUILD them a ARMY of Xenomorphs?

Looking at the Prequels and the Themes at PLAY it was NOT about the Xenomorph, it was NOT about the Company and its Agenda to get the Xenomorph.

It was and again maybe i COULD be Wrong (we have to Capture RS and ask him).  It was to be more about the TALE of Creation, how giving a Creation Free-will can lead to Rebellion and the kind of Knowledge you allow your Creation.

The Knowledge and Stolen Fire that Prometheus had done, the Temptation by Satan to Eat the Forbidden Fruit.

And so David was the NEXT LAYER of this, and so it seemed it would be about WHAT he WOULD do when he is FREE....  with Access to the Secrets of the Engineers.

The Answer...... to CREATE...

So it would have led to WHAT KIND of a World would a Sentient Being who is somewhat Immortal go to Create/Build.

Rather than Agent David reporting to DUTY to Create the W-Y Company a Bio-Weapon.  It seems that Davids Agenda would be to DESTROY his Creators... and NOT to Reward them with his WORK.

However..... YES it could be that UNKNOWN to David the Company had a KILL/CONTROL switch and so that makes SENSE and would come at a PLOT TWIST.... to Reveal that all of his HARD WORK where he THINKS he is IN CONTROL would come Crashing Down when the Company Confront him and ACTIVATE a Hidden Code to CONTROL him.

David once again FORCED to be  SLAVE... Condemned to that Destiny that was always going to be.....

So YES having Sleeper Codes makes Sense for sure.... i mean even BISHOP could have had ONE where he could be the Reason the Egg got onto the Sulaco and he was NOT even aware of his Role as it was a HIDDEN PROGRAM/OBJECTIVE.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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