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"Aliens" , the worst "Alien movie" ever

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Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPDec-03-2018 1:44 PM

I am surprised how many people are criticizing Alien: Covenant. I do not like the film very much, but against Cameron's nonsense, called "Aliens," it's still a great movie. Alien, it's a horror movie. It is, tension, creeping horror. The end was supposed to be clear, Ripley was killed by Alien. The fact that the producers forced Scott to change this end made the pile of nonsense films. But the worst of all is Cameron's Ripley-Rambo. Everything that Alien did by the brilliant image is killed here. An indestructible monster has changed into a weird beetle, which can be shot with a shotgun, a planetoid of 1200 km is a great planet. I have no problem seeing the action sci-fi. Unfortunately, Cameron destroyed the milestone in science fiction. If he made the same film but did not play for the sequel, I would not care. Maybe I'd go to laugh the scene with Ripley battling "Mother" in a robot suit. That's why no film from this "Alien Universe", either AvP or A: Covenant, is a problem for me. After that awful nonsense, "Aliens" no longer mind me. I'm just shocked when I see praise for Cameron's movie somewhere.

62 Responses to "Aliens" , the worst "Alien movie" ever

damiendada

OvomorphMember26 XPAug-25-2021 3:00 AM

Alien Covenant is better than Prometheus because it is less complicated to follow, and there is less inconsistency in the situations and behaviors of some characters. On the other hand, the film tends to be a little too predictable, and some characters are more highlighted than others who are more of the figuration.

ShowBox Tutuapp Mobdro

BigDave

DeaconMember10193 XPAug-26-2021 10:00 AM

Well this is the OP own Opinion.

I think ALIENS is FAR from the Worst Movie in the Franchise, it is POPCORN but it shows you have to do Popcorn Action Well....  I had a Good Amount of Good Characters, Story, Execution, Pacing was Good the Effects were Good.  Its Hard to Fault about from it is merely Popcorn Action and maybe JC had Evolved the Xenomorph to what RS would NOT have.

"The end was supposed to be clear, Ripley was killed by Alien"

This was NOT Part of the Drafts, the Drafts from 1st we had a Single Survivor a Male called ROBY..... this was Changed to Female called RIPLEY for the other Drafts and the ENDING has always been they Survive and the ALIEN gets Blown out of the Shuttle/Airlock.

Ridley Scott had Proposed that the ALIEN should KILL the Survivor Ripley and then Imitate her Voice.... but to be Fair that would have been a Bit Silly and MOST Movies have Survivors.  And so this Idea was thrown out.

"But the worst of all is Cameron's Ripley-Rambo"

Ripley seemed a Tough Character a Female who takes NO BS! Her Experiences/Trauma  did make her into that Rambo Ripley, but the Story Arc seemed OK... i think YEAH was a BIT of a Rambo in HOW she Managed to get to Newt and See Off the Xenomorphs on her OWN that the Marines had Struggled and Most Died trying to do (Face the Xenomorph Threat).  So yeah i think that Scene was a bit OT.

"An indestructible monster has changed into a weird beetle, which can be shot with a shotgun"

Its Hard to say, as the Xenomorph has Acid Blood and this is WHY the Nostromo Crew would DARE NOT to Wound it.... and some Shotguns can PUT A BIG HOLE in any kind of Organism at Close Range!   The Xenomorph did seem more Fodder in ALIENS but we are Dealing with more Open Field of Battle than the Confines of the Nostromo, and the Marines are WELL TRAINED and Armed with Weapons with Explosive Rounds.

The Xenomorph in ALIEN was Tough but we NEVER saw it Attacked Really, so its HARD TO SAY.... but i Doubt it was NO TERMINATOR..... it did seem to NOT be Wounded by Fire though... same we saw in Alien Covenant too.

"a planetoid of 1200 km is a great planet"

This came from ALIEN as well as a 2 Hour Rotation, which makes LV-426 Tiny and also with that Rotation to Size Ratio.... well the Gravity would be Immense... maybe they should have said it was 12'000 KM with a 8 Hour Rotation that would make more Sense.  But this Nonsense came from ALIEN inc the Earlier Drafts.

"That's why no film from this "Alien Universe", either AvP or A: Covenant, is a problem for me. After that awful nonsense, "Aliens"

I would go and Watch say ALIENS and then AVPR back to back and then see how you Feel ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1302 XPAug-26-2021 4:35 PM

I'm not the biggest ALIENS fan...But it's a AWESOME movie.

I'd reboot it in a second and change much of it....BUT It's my go to action / popcorn flick by a country mile!

Wish I could watch it on the big screen again ( and in 70mm FILM not digital! )

hox

FacehuggerMember453 XPAug-27-2021 12:49 AM

Aliens is an excellent film, and not just for the action sequences. You’re knee-deep in memorable characters, for one thing. To see Burke’s eyes darting about while he schemes is nothing to do with popcorn. You’re not going to spot that on the first viewing. I have watched Aliens numerous times. The dialogue is generally outstanding and - for its time - the special effects are pretty good.

The only things I really don’t like are

- rear screen projection, which is all too obvious at times

- the mushy conversation between Ripley and Newt when she’s tucked up in bed

- timing error when Burke gets surprised ahead of the vocal he reacts to

- the Queen peering around a corner at Ripley - not convincing

- Newt calling Ripley “mommy” near the end

Small niggles for a great movie. There are just too many good things to mention to make Aliens a bad movie.

BigDave

DeaconMember10193 XPAug-27-2021 8:20 AM

Yeah its HARD to Fault the Movie..... Its Action Movie but its DONE Very Well...

Some MAY-NOT like it because they DONT like the Queen/Hive Concept, some think it made the Xenomorph to Space Bugs, which it DOES but it goes to SHOW they had a Purpose... (SURVIVE) the None-DC version of ALIEN the Xenomorph was Basically a ALIEN Jason Voorhees

Some Because they always Felt the Xenomorph was more like a TERMINATOR (Near Enough Indestructible).

But thats the Fans for you.... they Each have a LIKE or DISLIKE and a IDEA/WANT for HOW they want to see Sequels... and when a Sequel gives something that GOES AGAINST what they Thought Prior then some Fans can Nit-Pick on a Movie over that.

Some Examples....

*What!  Egg Laying Queen!  Bloody Space Ants!

*What they Killed Ripley!  Stupid Alien 3!

*Hybrid Ripley and that Awful New-Born! NO this is NOT a Alien Movie!

*So the Space Jockey is NOT a Skeleton but Bloody Bald Space Smurfs and where is the Xenomorph!

*WHAT you KILLED Dr Shaw!  And David created the Xenomorph! Nah! this Movie does-not Exist.

And so you will get THESE with ANY other ALIEN Movie or TV Show that we will Ever Get... because Each Movie will LIKELY not go and Give us what we WANT or THINK.

I can Actually Find some Pros/Cons and Decent Ideas in ALL of the Movies (AVPR inc) but some are UNDONE by the Worse Parts... (AVPR Especially)

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Xenotaris

PraetorianMember2792 XPAug-27-2021 12:48 PM

hox

Those elements you dislike in Aliens are heavily tied to the Motherhood theme of the movie

ALIEN VERSUS PREDATOR UNIVERSE

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1540 XPAug-28-2021 3:31 AM

Nah, Aliens deals with characters a lot better and also as far as the lore goes the queen is far easier to deal with compared to the David-part. Even though Aliens is a bit 80's I got to say that I like it a lot more than Covenant. You are right about the creature, it was more interesting in Alien compared to Aliens.

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1302 XPAug-28-2021 5:35 AM

Alien reboot: I wouldn't touch anything. I'd keep the CRT tech and just update the SFX of the Ash headless sequence.

Aliens reboot : I'd change everything except the basic plot ( xenos versus space marines ) 

Alien 3 and 4 would be completely different because I rewrote ALIENS.

Xenotaris

PraetorianMember2792 XPAug-28-2021 7:47 AM

well MonsterZero, go write this alien fanfiction. also with a reboot why would they retain the 70's look?

ALIEN VERSUS PREDATOR UNIVERSE

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPAug-28-2021 2:09 PM

I don't want to go into too much detail. For me, there is only one Alien film and that is Alien 1979. Of course, I would have preferred it to have been made as it was originally intended. That is, with a pyramid where the germs were. Work by Giger. Explanatory info (hint) about the civilization of the Aliens. A film that would make the indestructibility of this creature clearer. When the fact that the flames from the spaceship's engines did not burn him is no longer enough for some people.  After all, the inspiration for indestructibility is the short story IXTL. And the film was supposed to end in Ripley's death. But it didnt happen so OMG no remake. 

Let whoever wants what they want. For me, all Aliens, Alien3 etc and Covenants and AvP are fun (not “Aliens”) but THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ALIEN. It is parasitism, including the Covenant. But what doesn't spoil my mood. For me, somebody can make ten more "Alien" films for me.

Alien King can fight with Kong, Godzilla, ressurected Ripley can fight Morlocks. Whatever. Worse than “Aliens” space bugs Vietnam it cant be. 

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1302 XPAug-28-2021 4:58 PM

Xenotaris wrote: "alien fanfiction."

I'll probably do a script....And then some original music and drawings. I'll call it A L I E N  I I.             Have to find the time...

 

My Alien CRT tech homage, would be steampunk alternative history vibe....H.P. Lovecraft influenced. Think: CRT globes.

 

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1302 XPAug-28-2021 5:07 PM

"space bugs Vietnam it cant be"

 

Yeah the Vietnam war type soldiers was off-putting. I never once thought: "Wow! I'm in the 22nd century!" Everything out of their mouths is street jargon from the 1980's.  Gives it a popcorn movie feel ( for better or worse )

 

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPAug-30-2021 8:26 AM

Yeah. I understand that in 1979, they couldn't know what computers would look like in 2021, much less in the 22nd century. But to assume that soldiers destined to fight alien monsters (ok they didn't know what they were) would have the weapons they had in Aliens was shocking to me. I understand it's expensive to have exoskeletons in a movie. But maybe remotely controlled reconnaissance flying robots (aka today's drones) might have occurred to Cameron.
That bunch running around with rifles and grenade launchers is equipped to the level of the film's production. Like I said. Just replace the invaders with Vietnamese , Islamic State soldiers etc and it would be the same thing. By the way has anyone thought that if there were grizzly bears or tigers in that base they would be more dangerous than the "aliens"? Aliens is a tragic failure. But I understand that it's great for teenagers. But that was a really fun AvP. More imaginative.

BigDave

DeaconMember10193 XPAug-31-2021 9:56 AM

I think there can be NO DOUBT that ALIEN was a Masterpiece and AHEAD of its Time.  However for a LOT of Franchises the FIRST Movie is Usually the BEST.

It SETS the Story, it SETS the Framework and LORE.... and sometimes Sequels do-not PLEASE those who liked the Original because they Change things or GO AGAINST what may had been Originally Planned or WHAT it seemed to be about.

But i think we have to LOOK at that Based on the Theatrical Release of the FIRST MOVIE, i dont think that STUFF that was Dropped from the DRAFTS for whatever Reasons should be Considered Canon.... thats UNLESS/UNTIL those working on Future Sequels would Choose to go and EXPLORE the things that NEVER made it to the First Movie.

By Virtue of that then some things ARISE from Sequels.

QUEEN: That was NOT how the Xenomorph Eggs came to be!  However because FOX had the Egg Morph Scene removed from ALIEN then, this left Cameron to then introduce a Queen.

EGG SILO: Yes it was intended to have a Separate Egg Silo but as they had to Merge the SETS to Save Money/Time then what we got was a CARGO HOLD of the Derelict instead (In-Spite of some Size Issues).

I have already mentioned about the Ripley Death Ending.... this was NEVER in the Drafts and was a Idea that RS wanted to ADD.... but the WAY he intended it would have been SILLY.

I think when it comes down to the Xenomorph being Indestructible... i think here is a KEY QUOTE...

Parker : "It's got a great defense mechanism... you don't dare kill it."

Then i have to go to PREDATOR

Ducth: "if it bleeds we can kill it"

Now i will say that when Ridley Scott had Envisioned how he wanted to Execute the ALIEN Drafts....  then YES he did-not intend for the Xenomorph to be as Vulnerable as we saw in ALIENS and ALIEN RESURRECTION.  (Plus the AVP Movies).

Now with ALIEN 3 the Xenomorph was Tough, we saw it could Withstand Extreme Heat/Burns as we saw in ALIEN and also ALIEN COVENANT.  This does-not mean the Organism should be INDESTRUCTIBLE though.

Else we just gonna get a Space Jason Voorhees with a T-800 Inner Skeleton.

IF say we saw RS go and give us a Indestructible Xenomorph where there are Thousands of them via the Eggs, and they can MIMIC a Human Voice, then its HOW do you Continue?

You then have to ASK as to WHERE are the Rest of these Immortal Bio-Mechanical Killing Machines?

I think its BETTER they had some Vulnerabilities and well the LIFE-CYCLE is one such VULNERABILITY.... especially if they do-not LIVE FOREVER...

I dont think having a Xenomorph that would be like a Marvel Super Hero would have been Good.... but i Certainly think they had been made to be Too Easy to KILL with Aliens and AVP.

The Alien Covenant Xenomorph looked like it GOT IT RIGHT.

Ridley Scott had CLAIMED the Dead Xenomorphs would REGENERATE and so that would have been Interesting.... but NOT if its like a T-1000

No Xeno T-800 or T-1000 for me... 

But to come up with a Clever.... kind of Regeneration that Merges with Egg Morph would be Ideal.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

hox

FacehuggerMember453 XPAug-31-2021 10:58 PM

On the matter of the Alien’s resistance to fire, have we ever seen this for sure? The flame throwers in Alien were never aimed at an Alien. It simply ran off from the fire in Alien 3, although it did briefly survive being dipped in a pool of molten lead. In Aliens, it turned its head away when Ripley’s flame thrower sputtered out a feeble flame as it was running out. We never saw what happened when Vasquez and Drake let rip. No flames dousing the Alien in Resurrection, Prometheus or Covenant as I recall.

We’re overdue a scene where an Alien gets scorched by fire to see how it can really cope with being torched.

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-01-2021 2:10 AM

I'd like to make a few comments.

1) Parker is talking about the dying facehugger not the Alien. He had no idea it would exist at the time. Facehugger is dying. It's merely a cripple between the egg and the Alien. Just like the egg is probably dying.

2) As far as destructibility or reaction to fire in the nonsense that gets labeled as "sequels" it doesn't matter. They have nothing to do with Alien. They are commercial creations whose creators wanted to cash in on the popularity of Alien. That's all. What happens in them is irrelevant.

3). Yes the ending with dead Ripley was what Ridley Scott wanted. And I would have preferred that version. It wouldn't be the nonsense labelled as other episodes. By the way, the sad thing is that Scott created the biggest nonsense with the idea that the rest of the alien in spaceship is a spacesuit. I'd rather not comment on the other storylines of Prometheus and Covenant. I'd be rude. He should never have come back to Alien.

4) The model for indestructibility is A E van Vogt's 1939 short story "Discord in Scarlet". It's from the collection " The Voyage of Space Beegle " but that's not important anymore. The point is not whether he was completely indestructible. But if something doesn't get burned by the flames from the spacecraft's thrusters, it's impossible to shoot it with a rifle that might have trouble taking out a Grizzly.
Btw the alien corpse in the spaceship, it was inspired by the movie Planet of the Vampires.

It's too bad Scott didn't do everything as scripted for lack of money. I mean, the pyramid with the Aliens. With hieroglyphics in it, etc. Just as he should have left out the information that it's a tiny planet that no one would ever want to inhabit. He should also have left the scene where Brett and Dallas' bodies are cocoons. Cameron couldn't make up nonsense about the Queen and make Alien an insect.

But don't get me wrong. If Cameron made a movie that had a similar plot to "Aliens" I wouldn't mind at all. Action scifi ok. Same as Alien vs Predator. What bothers me is the parasitism on the Alien masterpiece. He just saw Alien and knew that younger audiences were bothered that they didn't see combat in Alien. So he thought ok I'll give it to them. And I'll make a “sequel” and make lot of money. And he did. Other directors did, too. Parasites. Sad thing is, Scott's a parasite on his own work with Prometheus and Covenant. Money is money.

I was (from “srauels” ) most amused by Alien vs Predator. It's not playing for a sequel. Director just stole a monster and combined the two monsters in a pretty funny way. It's nonsense but fun. Not anymore AvP2. It's a tragedy.

 

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10193 XPSep-01-2021 6:54 AM

"Parker is talking about the dying facehugger not the Alien"

That is True, my point was being that if it came from Organic Beginnings and a Organic Host, i dont think it will Gestate to like a Terminator as far as how TOUGH it would be to Damage.  The ACID BLOOD was Essentially a Plot Device that meant the Crew would DARE to NOT go and Shoot it...... which then made the Terror they Faced more Intense because they had NO MEANS to Defend Against it apart from Scare if OFF with Fire.

"They are commercial creations whose creators wanted to cash in on the popularity of Alien"

Well when a Writer comes up with a Story and its SOLD to a Studio and a Director is brought in to BRING the Story to the Screen and has some Vision.... The Story/Franchise belonged to 20th Century Fox and they are within their Rights to make Sequels and Prequels and EVEN if they MESS them up, they can still do so...  The Vision of ALIEN could be more Diluted under DISNEY. (it will become even more POPCORN i Fear).

The Death of Ripley would have MADE sense if they Thought it out.... the Way that RS had Wanted it would have been SILLY if i am Honest, "this is Ellen Ripley, Permission to Dock"   DOOR OPENS and Ha Ha GOT YA... Stupid Humans!

For the Xenomorph to well Essentially Plant a Seed in Ripley then Stick her into Cryo-Sleep so she is Gestating a Xenomorph would have been Better. Also Ridley Scott can Change his Mind/Idea a lot.... he had said the Xenomorph was going away to DIE as it had Accomplish its Objective (Egg Morph).  If its aim is to Procreate then i would think it would have wanted to do the same with Ripley...  But i think the Ending was ok.....

"Scott created the biggest nonsense with the idea that the rest of the alien in spaceship is a spacesuit" The PILOT is something that had GONE through a LOT of Changes....

IF they had Stuck to the Original Idea (Starbeast) then YES we had a SKELETON of a ALIEN SPECIES but it was something that looked NOTHING like the Space Jockey, this came about via HR Giger and his Concepts Clearly had Indicated that is was a Space Suit... but also the Occupants are Bald Humanoids.

But on Screen it was left a Mystery and the Color of the Space Jockey and mainly its Helmet did look like a Skeleton... but the Arms and Snorkel are Clearly None-Skeletal...  only by Bone Color they look Skeletal.

"Scott's a parasite on his own work with Prometheus and Covenant. Money is money"

I think its more so he wanted to Protect his Legacy of ALIEN, as he had LOST the Control over what would become of a Sequel.   He would have known than after they COOK the Beast some more... they Eventually would have to look at the ORIGINS and WHO the Space Jockey are...

I think he would rather have MADE a Prequel than to NOT and then see someone come in and Explain the Origins of the Xenomorph and WHO the Space Jockey are as something that would MAKE him Turn in his Grave...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10193 XPSep-01-2021 7:23 AM

I will add that just as some Fans will NOT go and Accept that Alien 3 on-wards are Canon as they KILLED OFF... their Ripley.... so those who do-not Accept the Ideas that Cameron had Introduced are WELL within their Rights to NOT go and Consider that as Canon.

ALIEN was the Result of a Evolving Story and Concept.........

Xenomorph/Starbeast had Started as the Remains of a Ancient Alien Race who had some kind of Civilization who had BUILT a Pyramid which they would USE for their Birthing Ritual. 

The Space Jockey was merely a Unrelated Organism that Happened to come across the Pyramids and Decided to Explore and well Curiosity Killed the Cat.

The Xenomorph had gone through Various Changes as FAR as its Appearance and it was HR Giger who gave us the FINAL PRODUCT.

The Pyramid had become a Egg Silo and the Mural instead had become something Different, and these had all been Designs by HR Giger, which included the PILOTS SHIP which they all SHARED a Connective Tissue as far as Aesthetically.

The Pilot was Now on the Mural, they Pilot was Implied to being Connected to the Eggs and the Silo from where they was Held/Created.

Had there been more Budget and Time and the Studio was OK with a Extra 10 Min Footage then we would have seen KANE go to the Egg Silo to then Encounter the Eggs.

It would have Left some Questions... but those with Keen Eye would Notice the Aesthetic Connection to the Pilots Ship and the Egg Silo.  You would have been left to Consider...

1) The Pilot Race (Space Jockey) have come Across some Organism and they have Stored them in the Egg Silo, and one of their Race (Space Jockey) gets Infected while either Taking Eggs to his Ship or Vice Versa.

2) The Pilot (Space Jockey) had Engineered the Eggs and then Store them on the Egg Silo, or Engineered the Silo that Creates the Eggs.

3) The Egg Silo, the Ship where Created by some other Race and the Space Jockey are USED to Transport them to Places.

The Mural  (HR Giger) indicated the Space Jockey Race would Self-Sacrifice themselves to Procreate the Organism inside the Eggs.

But this was NEVER USED and the Egg Silo and so it became Part of the SHIP.

The Story had Evolved to make the Eggs a Engineered Bio-Weapon by the Space Jockey Race.... but at ONE POINT... it was to be a Engineered Weapon by the Weyland-Yutani Company.

The Idea of Starbeast had thus Changed... all that Remained was the Organisms Life-Cycle, Acid Blood and a ALIEN World it was Discovered on.

Things could have been Explored Differently (looked into some the Unused Concepts/Story) and LIKELY would have, IF we saw Ridley Scott go to make ALIEN 2.... but ALAS.

Regarding the Technology and Weapons of ALIENS.... i think that YES you would Expect them to USE like MECH SUITS... Remote Controlled A.I or even Synthetics instead of the GRUNTS/MARINES.

But having Humans means you can Build on Characters in Peril to make a Connection with the Audience.... you have to also Consider the Budget and Limitations of the 80's Effects.

To have Marines in District 9 Style Exosuits would require a LOT of Stop Motion like they did with the Queen and also the Power Loader.

You would maybe even Need this if you was to have them send A.I or Remote Control Combat Robots..... CHAPPIE anyone?  (well similar) and these would have been more Drain on Budget and Time, and in the 80's it is NOT that Easy to do (But The Terminators did it).

Yeah some of ALIENS was Goofy but so was the Mercs a bit in Alien Resurrection.  I have said a LOT that if you made more ALIEN Movies with Marines/Grunts vs Armies of Xenomorphs then it would just be another Starship Troopers... which was ok for Popcorn.

I Respect you Admiration for ALIEN... and for me, i Accept the Movie ALIENS.. but i am NOT sure it was the BEST WAY to have taken a ALIEN Sequels.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Xenotaris

PraetorianMember2792 XPSep-01-2021 10:25 AM

I felt that ALIENS was the next logical step to the alien series, but MAYBE I liked ALIENS because I grew up in a military family. I liked ALIENS because the marines for all their gloating and brovado quickly went out the window when they were attacked by the xenomorphs. Without ALIENS, I feel that ALIEN would have been forgotten since ALIENS with the help of ALIEN influenced the sci-fi genre as a whole, I dare to say that ALIEN and ALIENS was more influential to sci-fi then either STAR WARS and STAR TREK

AVP 2004 was just a horrible abomination that added nothing to the alien series and just reused concepts already explored in other mediums of the franchise.

ALIEN VERSUS PREDATOR UNIVERSE

BigDave

DeaconMember10193 XPSep-01-2021 4:30 PM

I think that while ALIEN was a Masterpiece it maybe could have become one of those CULT Movies...like The Thing and Blade Runner etc....

And so i would AGREE that ALIENS was the Movie that made the Franchise more Familiar, by that if you Showed EVERYONE on the Planet and Asked or Talked about the Franchise....

I think MORE would be Familiar with ALIENS over ALIEN. To the General Population then YES that does Stand Out more.  The Alien Franchise which Includes the Video Games. Comics, Novels and Cross-Overs (AVP) do seem to be more Synonymous and Connected to Camerons Aliens... rather than Ridley Scotts Original.

For me and maybe for Many i was Younger when i saw ALIENS... and the Action and Bravado was more my Cuppa Tea but i also LOVED the First Movie and was Disapointed with the 3rd.....  But as i Grew Older then Alien 3 had Grown on me, and Aliens started to NOT be as Great... but still Good.....

Overall then ALIEN was my Favorite and i think as RS had said for me i became Unsensitised to the Franchise as FAR as the Xenomorph because i had seen it OVER and OVER in Various Mediums.... what KEPT the First ALIEN Movie as Enigmatic for me was the MYSTERY....

That First Time we see the Derelict, the Pilot Chamber and Pilot, the Egg Cargo Hold.... this to me is ONE of the GREATEST Set of Scenes in Sci-Fi History.

The Xenomorph was something we had NEVER really seen it was Unique, it was Iconic...it was a ENIGMA.... but then when you have something that is SHOWN in Mass and Too Many Times then it LOOSES that Sparkle/Enigma it once had.

This is NOT to say that Aliens had Killed it Off.....  i think the Downfall Started with Alien Resurrection and then AVPR basically made a Mockery of Sorts of it.

I cant Blame JC for the Queen.... he had Free Reign to Explore the Idea as the Egg Morph Scene was NOT a Part of the Original (DC Cut aside).  But when you look at Eggs.... then you think well they have to be LAID by something.

And if that Something can LAY MANY EGGS... then your Conclusion would be that maybe they have to be like a Ant, Bee or Termite and so you can Understand as to HOW the Hive/Queen came to be.

The Existence of the Queen did OPEN the Debate about the Origins of the Xenomorph as FAR as to give some Credit to the Idea that the Xenomorph was NOT a Creation but a Ancient Organism.....

It seems that THIS would have been something that JC would have Touched On had he MADE the Sequel to ALIENS... This would make the Xenomorph become more Closer to the Original Starbeast.

Ridley Scott had however thought the Xenomorph as a Engineered Killing Machine that the Space Jockey had Created....But this does-not make the Queen as something that does-not FIT with a Engineered Weapon... the Queen actually Offers some Benefit as a Weapon.... but also Offers some Flaws.

But even if ALIENS had Never Existed and the Egg Morph was shown in ALIEN then IF the Notion was the Xenomorph was a Creation by the Space Jockey then it would STILL have Flaws as well as Pros to being a Bio-Weapon.

I think EVERYONE has a Different Take well can have a Varied Take on the Franchise and likes and Dislikes and Everyone is Entitled to that.  There may even be some who like AVRP ;)  (I actually think the Pred-Alien and Procreation was Interesting but a BIT RAPID).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Xenotaris

PraetorianMember2792 XPSep-02-2021 12:04 AM

I like AVPR better than AVP 04, yeah it has a direct to video quality but I grew up on both hollywood movies and direct-to-video movies. Used to watch alot of sci-fi original movies back in the day.

As for the rest, well said Big Dave

ALIEN VERSUS PREDATOR UNIVERSE

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-02-2021 4:19 AM

When I saw Alien, I was 15 years old and it was 1982. That's when I wanted an explanation above all else. And when I saw Aliens, I was excited at first. Hooray for action, combat, explanation. That's what the success of Aliens is based on. JC knew exactly what he was doing.

But as the years went by, I, who loved Alien despite my initial enthusiasm, suddenly understood the tragedy that Aliens caused for the original Alien.

RS quite deliberately left out the explanation. Alien is a de facto gothic horror film. Humans have no chance of survival, although they don't know it at first. The audience doesn't know why or what it's all about. And that's the amazing thing.

There's a spaceship. Who built it? When was it built? We'll never know. There's a dead pilot. Something killed him from the inside. No other crew. The next storyline will explain why. If Nostromo hadn't taken off, the situation would have repeated itself. A dead body with bones outside and no one around.

Now that I think about it in the discussion, it's better that Alien didn't include the scene with Dallas and Brett's cocoons. It left a mystery. By the way, the alien ship wasn't carrying eggs. Kane clearly says "It's a cave, hot as the tropics". So the alien ship landed over the egg cave instead of the pyramid.

It's a good thing there were no hints. It remained a mystery. I think Ripley's words "they probably wanted the monster for the armaments factory" is a deliberate hoax. The command in the Mother is not to fly to a specific planet. It's a command to investigate ANY source of intelligent life and import a sample. Unfortunately, Aliens uses this phrase to build a story to confuse the viewer.

Alien is a polished gem, and anything extra already cancels it out. Even the cocoon scene. The goal is total mystery. No hint of explanation.

There's a similar case in the history of literature. E A Poe and his book on A G Pym. The hero reaches the South Seas at a time when the existence or size of Antarctica was unknown. And when the mystical atmosphere is at its peak a giant white glowing figure appears and the book ends. That's all we learn.

Jules Verne did not understand this Poe's idea of deliberately not revealing the point or wanted to capitalize on it and wrote the novel The Ice Sphinx where the expedition to Antarctica explains everything. The death of Pym, making a mystical figure into an ice stump looking like a sphinx, etc. Someone was happy and the explanation.

Back to RS. The creation of Prometheus and Covenant were his biggest failures. He decided to suppress the other movies of the original Alien and shattered the mythology with more nonsense than one would expect. He got tangled up in his own thoughts and got stuck in them.

Yes, Aliens was the gateway to the creation of the Alien universe. Hence the many video games, comics and various sequels, etc. For me, Alien will always remain as a one-off. Untouchable. Mount Everest. And everything around it whether Aliens , , Alien 3, AvP or Covenant are just avalanches that have fallen from its slopes. The mountain would remain a mountain even if a thousand avalanches fell from it.

All the attempts to figure out "how it was" are the acts of children who want to know more and so they make stuff up. Fabulating. Usually to their own detriment  

1) Where did the eggs come from in the cave? We don't know.
2) why and where did the alien ship come from? We don't know.
3) Was the Alien intelligent or was it driven by perfect instincts? We don't know.

The sad thing is, after Scott built such a perfect structure, he joined the others who tried to destroy it for money. To no avail. In this, Alien is truly indestructible and has infected countless writers and audiences even without eggs. And it remains what it was meant to be. A mystery.

hox

FacehuggerMember453 XPSep-02-2021 6:04 AM

"That First Time we see the Derelict, the Pilot Chamber and Pilot, the Egg Cargo Hold.... this to me is ONE of the GREATEST Set of Scenes in Sci-Fi History."

Indeed. And those scenes are utterly... alien!

BigDave

DeaconMember10193 XPSep-02-2021 8:42 AM

@Andy77

Well i have to agree with a LOT of what your Saying... with ALIEN it was Mysterious a ENIGMA....there was a LOT that we just Dont Know!  And so IF you ONLY go and Watch the Theatrical Release and you do-not look at NOTHING ELSE... no other Source, Comments, Concepts, Drafts.

Then there is a LOT of Mystery.... and the PROBLEM you have when you do any Sequels is the Stuff it could SHOW would NOT match with Everyone's Speculation to WHAT the Answers would be.

As ALIEN was ALONE... then Every Fan can Speculate, Dream or Wish for WHAT they would Think/Like... but WHEN someone makes Sequels and Prequels then the Answers or things they go to SHOW will NEVER Please everyone...

WHY i had Mentioned the Movie THE THING.... this was the same as ALIEN with the Mystery etc... and so in Hindsight i think had the 2011 Prequel had Never Been Made then the ORIGINAL would have had more of that Enigma/Magic and Mystery.

Lets say we had a THING Prequel thats SET BEFORE the 2011 Movie...  You have a Humanoid Species who are Genetically Engineering stuff and come up with a VIRUS.... this Overruns their Planet and Teaches them to NOT go and Play God... we show Survivors of the World running away to Flying Saucers to Escape and we see that ONE of them Decides to Head to Earth.... but then Reveal ONE of the Crew is a THING and Kills the others... and Mutates into the FORM that was DUG from the ICE in the 2011 Prequel.

Then you make a Sequel to The Thing where McReady is in a Mental Institute he is Informed by someone that the Military have the Space Ship and have a Sample of the DNA of the Organism....  McReady breaks out and then goes on to STOP the Outpost who are trying to Experiment with the VIRUS/Organism.

These could MAYBE go and Work.... but they could also Bomb! or maybe they are SO SO... but in any Case you would get some PURIST who would Dislike the IDEA that you are Making Prequels/Sequels to the ORIGINAL, were as the BEST THING would had been to have JUST the Original.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10193 XPSep-02-2021 8:59 AM

But to go back to a FEW things..

I think that YES with ALIEN it was Ambiguous, there was a LOT of Mystery.

Somethings we also Dont Know for sure would be.

The Eggs are in a Cave..... this could be Kanes Assumption.

The Space Jockey was a Skeleton.... again this could be a Assumption by Dallas.

Could the ALIEN be Killed?... again we do-not have enough to Conclude from ALIEN if it could be KILLED.

Then it comes down to STUDY with a Magnify Glass at Details, then you come up with things like thats a ODD SKELETON..... and that we are LOOKING at some STORAGE FACILITY for the Eggs that seems TOO LARGE to be Part of the SHIP and would seem more likely to be UNDERGROUND and Dug Out of a Cave etc.

What Dawned on me, even before the DVD Release and Wide Spread Internet, was that the SHIP had some Shared Aesthetic to the Xenomorph, and the PILOT had seemed Purposely Engineered to ATTACH to the Chair....

After i saw ALIENS in the 80's i was Drawn to Conclude that the Space Jockey Race had been Getting the Eggs from somewhere and STORING them either in a Lower Cargo Hold (thats Buried) or a Underground Storage Facility.

But what BUGGED ME (No Pun Intended) was the Xenomorph Hive did seem to Aesthetically Connect to the Egg Chamber and Derelict Ship.. and so i was ALWAYS WONDERING...... as to WHY...

Either ONE comes from the Other or Same Source.

1) Xenomorphs are Engineered on to Obtain the Derelict Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic.

2) The Space Jockey Engineer both the Derelict/Cargo Hold and the Xenomorph.

3) That the Space Jockey, Derelict, Cargo Hold and Xenomorph are Created/Engineered by something ELSE we have YET to see.

The ONE THING that Definitely Stood out for me with ALIEN was that SPECIAL ORDER 937 to me had Indicated the Company had SOME knowledge of what they MAY be dealing with.

I think Ripley would be aware of any Company Policy to Investigate Worlds they come Across that had LIFE... she seemed Really Pissed Off about Discovering that the Company had KNOWN they are going to Investigate something.  So its NOT that Special Order means the Company knows 100% what they was getting into... but would seem the could be Aware that something is ON the Moon and they want to get a SPECIMEN without the Crew (Apart from Ash) having any Knowledge about.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-02-2021 10:57 AM

Of course we can do the analysis. But every analysis is based on films and material that were made AFTER the other Alien films were made. Aliens brings in conspiracy theory, Alien 3 brings in the possibility of mutation by host / later on RS actually used this for both Covenant and Prometheus. But all of this material comes from the films AFTER Aliens none of it comes from BEFORE Aliens. This loses the essence of where the searchers are looking for the essence. Would they have thought of this or that idea BEFORE these movies?

I doubt anyone would have doubted for a second that it was an alien skeleton before seeing Prometheus flat. After all, the inspiration for the skeleton is found in Planet of the Vampires. The crazy suit idea is probably the stupidest I've ever seen.

The resemblance, I can easily explain. H.R. Giger was tasked with creating everything. The complete lifecycle of Alien, the Spaceship, I recommend the book H.R. Giger ALIEN Giger painted Biomechanoid style, in all his works we find elements of sex, death and technology. It is quite laughable where we find elements of female genitalia in his paintings. Yes and in many places in the film... I'll give you a hint, facehugger, alien spaceship entrances.

He just had his own style. And Scott was captivated. So he didn't interfere. That's why the cave is so close in design to the ship. Giger was a genius, and without his Alien, the film would have lost xy percent of its quality. If there was a weird octopus running around, it probably wouldn't be the same as the monster without eyes.

Giger's world is fascinating, I recommend the Necronomicon. Alien and his other books. Perfect. So I wouldn't look for a deeper idea. It's just that the design was used. The pyramid was supposed to look like that, there were even hieroglyphic characters and drawings, you can easily find that too.

In the Mother the whole point of the secret message was simple, BRING THE alien lifeform EVEN IF EVERYONE WAS TO DIE. that's why it was kept secret, Ripley's words about the armory are more of a joke. The clause said: If you find anything that indicates intelligent life, you must investigate, or no bonus. And the secret addendum for the android was:IF YOU FIND SOMETHING IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT IT KILLS THE POSSESSION... that's why the android was there. That clause has been in there for a long time, no one on the crew is surprised when Ash says it, Parker is just pissed. We can speculate that the order AT WHATEVER HAPPENS was given later, and an android was added to the crew there in case of bioinfection. The organism may contain viruses, etc.
But of course anyone can make up any theory they want. The sequel to The Thing is a tragedy on the level of Aliens :D but I understand it's good for earnings money. That's why I enjoy Alien vs Predator, it's not playing at anything. Just like Godzilla vs Kong. Also absolute nonsense, but entertaining. If Superman and Alien Queen ever fight, I have no problem with it... 

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Xenotaris

PraetorianMember2792 XPSep-03-2021 8:06 AM

Andy77

Correct me if I am WRONG but didn't the "CAVE" look ARTIFICIAL to you, looked more like a CARGO BAY then a CAVE and it had the same AESTHETICS as the DERELICT

ALIEN VERSUS PREDATOR UNIVERSE

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-03-2021 9:16 AM

I don't want to correct you. That's just Giger's style. He used to paint and sculpt and stuff like that. As I wrote. If anyone else had designed it no doubt the ship and the cave would be different. Not so with Giger.


BTW it is Kane and no one else that says it is a cave BUT for Kane they had to get Dallas and Lambert down. If there was any doubt it would have shown up in the dialogue. There's no such thing. I don't care what other movies have to say about this subject but I think it's there too.


I don't care what RS invented in Prometheus and Covenant, he created his own universe based on the thesis that the skeleton of the pilot is the spacesuit and the Alien was created by David after many experiments.

So yes, I understand you. But I have to base it on reality. Which is the words

1)It's been dead for a long time. It's fossilized.
The bones are bent outwards, it must have exploded inside.
2) There's a cave, a cave. It's as hot as the tropics.

That completely precludes interpreting a corpse as a spacesuit with any logic. More: 


The ship was open. The planet was freezing well below zero. It was freezing inside spaceship too. The team's breaths are changing into steam. There's also a hole in the floor of the ship. No door. The floor is burned through with acid. I mean, if it was part of the ship, it would be freezing inside. But the conditions in the cave are different. It's warm. It's not maintained by the wreck's systems. It's the alien system. It was originally supposed to be in the pyramid. That was scrapped for the money, leaving the cave. But again, logically. If the Alien was the original species on the planet. It built the pyramids, and the pyramid was scrapped because of the money, so there's a cave on the planet instead of a pyramid. And that's where Alien's conditions are.

I know Giger was supposed to make the two environments distinctly different. He didn't. Someone thought the plot of the original Alien would be so ruined by the sequels, etc.

look at Gigers paintings. You will understand. 

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-03-2021 10:15 AM

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/the-derelictpyramidsilo/

Xenotaris

PraetorianMember2792 XPSep-03-2021 10:25 AM

Giger style or not, the cavern looked artificial

ALIEN VERSUS PREDATOR UNIVERSE
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