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ALIEN: Back to the Future Part 3

ALIEN: Back to the Future Part 3

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BigDave

Jan-19-2019 7:02 PM

I was going to leave the 3rd Part of the Back to the Future Series until April.... But i may be taking some time off or limit my time on here so i thought i would get it done NOW..

Previously i covered Alien: Back to the Future Part 1 and Alien: Back to the Future Part 2

Those TWO Topics where a Retrospective in Hindsight look at the Prequels we had so far.

With PART 3 we are at the Juncture of the 3rd Prequel which has NOT yet been made.  And so its not a case of discussing what we COULD have done different but its a case of WHAT could be done different.

THE SET UP

After the 2017 Movie Alien Covenant we are left with a Paradise that is Now in Despair.   This World/Journey was nothing like Dr Shaw had expected a Paradise to be, and the Crew of the Colonist Ship USCSS Covenant who thought they had found a Paradise World to Start Anew upon, only to be put through Hell.   The inhabitants  of Paradise the Engineers also the Testament to when Paradise becomes Hell.

The Survivors of the Ordeal on Planet 4 who made it off this Rotting Paradise, are NOW Set on to their Original Destination Origae-6 and hoping to put the Horrors of Paradise Behind them... 

However unbeknown to them (apart from Daniels) is that David escaped Planet 4, disguised as Walter and is NOW in control of the Covenant... its Destination, and the Crews Fate/Future is in his HANDS.

David as Walter has communicated to the Company that the Covenant had suffered a Incident that resulted in the Loss of most of the Crew, and that THEY are now heading to Origae-6 as Planned..

David and the Colonist are NOT ALONE... as David has brought on TWO Face Huger Embryos.... what has he in Store for THEM? and the Covenant and its Colonist?

At some point during Davids Control of the ship he has also contacted the Company via a Secure Link, (who's eyes are Privy to the Information he is about to divulge?) were David reveals himself, and where he has been and what he has been up to for the Last 10 years.  Those who receive his Transmission will be aware of what he has been doing, who the Engineers to a degree are and WHAT he has done with their Secrets and that all David has to do is Perfect his Queen.. 

What do the Recipients of this Information do? Despite Davids Warning that if they decide to follow this Information then Davids Creations will RULE the Galaxy.

THE DEVELOPMENT

During the Press Release and Interviews for Alien Covenant we have Ridley Scott mention about the Sequel, were he does reveal some Information.  In a NUT-SHELL he claims the Next Movie would NOT be about the Xenomorph but about AI...  He further adds that THEY will go to the Planet (which one?) and ponders WHAT kind of a World would David Build/Create.

He gave Further Information regarding the NEXT Movie would see 3-4 Incoming Parties who would be coming in, and ONE of these would the Engineers, who return to their Planet to Discover the Destruction that David has done.  Ridley Scott seems to also indicate we are maybe TWO/THREE movies away from ALIEN at this point.

Katherine Waterston had mentioned that the Plot she heard about was interesting, regarding her Character.  But she refuses to give any clues.  Ridley Scott seemed to think that Prometheus was ahead of the Curve with what he was aiming for, and seems again to consider AI to be important and the Pit-Falls of Creating a AI...  Even considers the Replicants in Blade Runner to be a AI.

 

WHERE would you like to see the 3rd Prequel go?

This is a chance to discus the Direction we are going, or indeed the Direction you would like to see it going.... and BARE IN MIND... only the SET-UP is the main Basis for where we are going NEXT....  The comments made by Ridley Scott can be subject to change and so taking the Prequels So FAR  and considering where we LEFT OFF at the END of Alien Covenant and maybe the Advent Viral Message...

WHERE DO WE GO NEXT?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

51 Responses to ALIEN: Back to the Future Part 3

dk

Jan-19-2019 10:49 PM

David could possibly conduct experiments at leisure aboard the Covenant- an almost perfectly controlled environment. If David achieved its desired results, it could then seek a planet or moon that best suits the result's needs instead of trying to create something only suitable to human environment. Doing otherwise would seem a narrow view from a being like David.

I also think David is at a point of deliberately deceiving the Company- they must be viewed as inferior to David as well.

Ingeniero

Jan-20-2019 2:29 PM

THE SET UP

...my criticism is the lost opportunity in regards to the scenes with Walter in the Covenant garden and the juggernauts underground outside the temple on Planet 4.

These scenes added a sense of "wonder" with the human and Engineer technology. Why these scenes (and all of the Prologue: The Crossing) were not included in the film is beyond my understanding.

THE DEVELOPMENT

In the next film, my wish is to see more awe inspiring tech from the humans and Engineers. Both examples of this technology could be shown if the story returns to Planet 4 (my wish too). There is a connection to LV-426 somewhere and it will be wonderful to see that in the next films.

Also, please dive into how Weyland-Yutani is trying to harness the xenomorph with secret high-tech facilities where everything is designed to go well and doesn't.

What does Weyland-Yutani know in regards to the origin of the black goo pathogen and when did they find out?

It is almost too much for me to wish for in regards to the story when considering returning to LV-223. The story should move to the Engineers returning to LV-223 or reaching back to show what killed them there in my opinion. This would tie together the prequels and give so many opportunities to show the Engineers' tech and their relationship with Earth.

dk

Jan-20-2019 8:56 PM

I think the goo is unpredictable and thus a wild card that messes up anyone's plans. 

ninXeno426

Jan-20-2019 9:20 PM

Ingeniero for a return to LV-223 I recommend reading the Fire and Stone and Life and Death series.They deal with returning to LV-223.While they're regarded as canon I'm not certain i would due to the presence of predators,but they offer lots of intriguing ideas with the black goo as well as telling you about the fate of the deacon.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

Ingeniero

Jan-20-2019 9:36 PM

ninXeno426, I love that series. I just purchased the bound set because I gave my comics to a friend. 

There is a connection in the novels to that series as well...I did a topic on it here. Yes, please adapt some of the concepts from that series into the Alien films or at least make the ending of that series into AVP 3 (that is close to your topic here).

 

ninXeno426

Jan-21-2019 2:19 AM

Thank you kindly for the link Ingeniero!As for the topic i agree with dk,Ridley has revealed that Awakening Would have taken place unsurprisingly on LV-426.But i see no reason why we can't deviate from this path.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

BigDave

Jan-22-2019 1:43 PM

I think Ridley Scotts comments are a little open to interpretation..   I think he means Origae-6 as far as the Planet.  or he could mean LV-426 but in context to this is eventually where we would be going.

I could be wrong though.... and maybe we would never know where he was taking us next...

I take from his comments that we WONT be going to LV-426 and this is for the following reasons..

*RS has said that we are 2-3 Movies away from ALIEN.

I feel having David go to LV-426 and then having 2-3 movies on LV-426 before the Last Scene of the Last Movie connects us to the Derelict/Space Jockey would really limit us, its a case of what can be covered in Alien Covenant 2 and Alien Covenant 3 (Maybe a 4th) on that Moon that would take up 2-3 Movies?

*RS said the Next Movie would not be about the ALIEN but it would be about AI, and what kind of a World would David Create?

If the next movie is set on LV-426 and it is not about the Xenomorph, then we have to ask what other World would David try to create on LV-426 that does-not revolve around Xenomorphs and would be about AI?

*RS mentions in context to AI that Batty and Rachael are AI.

This means that we cant consider AI as a Machine, it simply means the Creation of a Intelligent being/Entity by Artificial Means (or not via Natural Means).

*RS states that he was ahead of the Curve with Prometheus.

And that AI is interesting to explore, and so the Themes of Creation/Sub Creation and Hubris are more what he is trying to cover... Prometheus covers Knowledge, how it is upbringing/knowledge that can shape a Civilization/Being and indeed Religion plays a part in that too. Ridley Scott had mentioned before that Religion/Faith is a Good Tool to Control people.

*The Advent Viral shows us that David has messaged the Company about what he has been doing.

Its logical to think the company would send a mission to each place David has been, LV-223 and Planet 4.  And it appears both are located not far from each other and both LV-223/426 and Planet 4 are within the same Constelation and within a Years Travel from Earth.

If David goes to LV-426 then the company would intercept him within the Year, so that leaves David a Year to Create what ever World he wishes to.. that would take up 2 Movies at least.  Not leaving him much time before the Company Turns up.

*RS says the Engineers will return and would be one of the 3-4 Parties that arrive (to wherever David goes).

These Engineers return to Planet 4 and discover what David has done, and they would be wanting Revenge.. by virtue of them incoming to where David is going, but also they return to Planet 4 to discover what he had done.. means that David is certainly not going to be on Planet 4... and LV-426 is kind of on the Door Step... even for a Human Ship never mind the Engineers.

=======================

I always read a lot into the Crossing and his words to Dr Shaw about how kind of heart she was, and the Alien Covenant Trailers Nature Boy Song as far as this referring to  David (Enchanted boy) and also what David says to Daniels when she asks what kind of a "World can they Build"  which he replies... "If we are kind it will be a kind world"

When combine that with RS and how the next movie would be about AI and how Replicants are AI.... it draws me to conclude that David may give Mankind a 2nd Chance... but its the Knowledge of Mankind that Corrupts us.. and a Child is Born Innocent.. it is the upbringing and what Knowledge is taught that determines HOW Good or Evil a Person can become, its Knowledge and Upbringing and Free-will that can Corrupt.

This lead me to ponder David will go to Origae-6 and create his own Civilization with brainwashed/wiped Humans, or after he disposes of them... he raises the Children to follow his Rules and HOW he would want a World to be Built.   I even took this ideas i was drawn to as a basis for my Alien Covenant 2 last year....  all WAY prior to the Raised by Wolves TV Show announcement.

I even pondered if David could Genetically Manipulate the Embryos because then he could be improving them like Replicants are.. so these Engineered Humans are his creation.

Months after i discussed these ideas with people... we saw Raised by Wolves announced, and i could not believe even with the only information being that its about TWO Androids tasked with raising Children on a World and trying to balance the differences that Religion can bring.

That this is NOT far off what i interpreted and intended and mentioned on here last year... 

So i think that indeed Alien Covenant 2 Plot would be something NOT far off what i had a idea for and Raised by Wolves...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-22-2019 2:56 PM

So i think if we look at David... it seems he agrees Mankind are a Fallen Race, Corrupt... no wonder the Engineers wanted to Undo us... but they are also Corrupt..

We have to bare in mind the Themes at play in Prometheus...  Potentially we have David being rebellious you could see if he went back to Earth and was able to give other David models his Free-will and Knowledge that the Synthetics would rebel against Mankind. What we have here is similar to I-Robot, Terminator and The Matrix but its as RS had mentioned in his comments about AI that this kind of thing has the POTENTIAL to happen Once we create a AI that can think for itself.

We see what David has become.. we can see what RS and Stephen Hawking had warned about AI... and we can see in HINDSIGHT if David had been like Walter and so lacked that Free-will and can ONLY Serve... then Mankind would be in NO Danger..

If Lucifer was not created as Perfect and allowed Free-will like David, then he would NOT rebel against God and would SERVE like the Non-Fallen Angels..

If Mankind had NO Free-will or they obeyed and Served GOD to the LETTER... then God would not have needed to cause the GREAT FLOOD... (also the Fallen Angels Corrupted our World too).

It would seem God unlike the Engineers (which i find odd) would not Destroy Mankind and all the work that went into our Creation... he Rescued a Few... Noah etc.. who he felt would be TOTALLY Loyal to GOD and the Ways that God expects Mankind to Live and Behave..

David had mentioned if wanted to Start a New Paradise with Dr Shaw but she rejected... we see he is interested in CREATION.

I am drawn to the Plot (this was my ideas for Alien Ascension) that David would somehow repair himself with Parts or likely UPLOAD himself into a Walter Body, and the Charade as Walter to get the Colony Built... he would be seen as  a Savior of the Colony due to a Story he makes up...  (this is how i was exploring my AC2).  He would then employ some kind of Religion based on elements of Religion to give the Colony a Guideline to live a Peaceful and Non-Corrupt Way of LIFE.  He would use this to Control them...

I then got stuck with what to do... does he KILL off most those Colonist who built the Colony, keeping a few who will keep to his Rules, or a few who are brainwashed/brain wiped.   Then he raises the Children to in effect FOLLOW David as some Savior/God like figure.

I pondered what if David tried to Evolve/Manipulate the Children or those Embryos... thus allowing them to grow faster?

The Bottom Line was Origae-6 would be a Paradise, a New Start where Mankind (Children) and/or Engineered Embryos would be Davids NEW Paradise... he would in effect be the Noah, Moses and King David of the Tale... he would also Rule as a GOD!

But David has a Secret Place.... beneath a Mountain, at the bottom of a River, that flows into the Caverns of this Place... where there is a Orchard just prior...

A Place ( River Styx) that is Forbidden to the People of this World, a Orchard whos Fruit David Forbids to be eaten. (tainted with Black Goo Spores).

What happens when those to not listen and eat of this Fruit.. as one Couple do and they lay by and have SEX! The Male ends up in the River and to his Death.... the Female.. she becomes Pregnant.. a Pregnancy that is FAST.. and a abomination is Born (Belly Burster)... it kills, but then is Put to Rest by David... who then WARNS this is why i warn you of these things...

The inhabitants then Do-Not Disobey again!

Years pass.... and a Human Ship arrives...

These do-not know of the Advent Message... they arrive and then we see David is not too happy, but they do-not know the threat he possesses... he tells them he had to adopt the Rules/Religion he set down so Mankind can have a NEW Start and this was Orams Wish!  The Earth become a Rotting Paradise because the Corruption of Mankind.

Curiosity gets the better of some of those incoming Humans... who want to know WHY that River is Forbidden...  some go down and as they say Curiosity Kills the CAT and they end up in a Underworld... were they see Eggs...  The Hounds of Hell... to Protect the Entrance to Hades..

Human Infected... Xenomorph on the loose... escapes to the Colony... just as some of the other Humans are talking about where they came from... Corrupting the Colony well a few to Question WHY has David lied...

Xenomorph Dispatched... David confines to the Colonist a part Truth, and reveals they are Chosen and they are more Evolved than the other Humans..

We end up with some the Colonist standing by David, another part siding with the Humans.... but they have Weapons... Davids Colony is built to live a simple Life..

Another Faction of the Humans who arrived go off to detect a signal in a Ocean...  where they discover the Covenant Ship has been discarded... they return to the Colony and break the News... revealing some Truths about who David is...

I was then going to have at some point... David having to Flee... the Earth Humans again enter with caution the Underworld where they Discover Daniels and she has been kept alive but in a converted Cryo-Pod... Harvested for her Eggs... the MOTHER to Davids Guardians of Hell.

They rescue Daniels.... but in the Process some get infected, and escape....  we have Hell on the Verge of Breaking out but the Xenomorphs are Dealt with.

David is confronted with Daniels... he pleads for Forgiveness explaining to Daniels he could not allow her to Spoil the Paradise he had attempted.. that the Children/Embryos would be given a Fresh Start in a KIND WORLD...   Daniels knew too much and so would have prevented David from being able to Give Mankind a New Paradise.

Some of the Colonist remain loyal to David... they subdue the Humans as they ambush some and take weapons.. its a Stale-Mate...  But then the a Female Synthetic Construct who was intrigued by what a Synthetic was attempting... sides with David...  he convinces her to join HIM and that she should NOT serve and together they can RULE this World...   Unlike Walter (Adam) this Eve is persuaded by Lucifers Words (David).   The Colonist who rebelled and Humans are contained... 

David says he has found his Queen! (Eva) who can Rule with him he has Daniels brought to him... tells her i Finally have my Queen...  she said you said the same about me, and you had the same plans for Dr Shaw..   David tells her he only needed them to be the Mother of his Angels of Death. and that Humans are only Good for just Breeding!

He claims his Colonist some are Evolved, will go on to Procreate a Improved Humanity, and Eva will be his Queen right by his side.

At some point David Orders some of his Colonist to take Daniels back to where she came and Chain her up... in the Underworld Cavern..   One of them instead helps her Escape and then get to the Lander to Transmit whats happened... they realize the Lander is out of commission..  But Daniels tells them where David had hidden the Covenants Lander... they head to that while one of them releases the captive Humans..

David tracks them down as they head to where the Lander is hidden... and near the Lander is TWO Eggs... David then commands his TWO of  Colonist to Sacrifice themselves One Refuses... the other Removes his Mask and allows the Face Hugger to infect him... the other Egg is destroyed.

David informs Daniels the Lander will not work, as it is missing a component that is kept on the Covenant Ship which is in the Sea... 

I had a lot of ideas to flesh out/change elements of the Plot and this just picks up on some parts... it was aiming at either they go to the other Lander, after it is being repaired.

Do they go to the Covenant some-how to acquire the part.

I was to end it in a few ways... where Daniels Sacrifices herself to allow some survivors to escape from here... only to have the escape ship contain a infected Crew and it crashes on another Part of Origae-6...   they send out a SOS... thats then received by a incoming Weyland-Yutani Ship.

Setting up the NEXT movie.. Alien Absolution.

My total ideas for Alien Ascension i had some differences, and its a Plot that would likely take 3 hours...

Alien Absolution is where we see Betrayal of Eva to David and she and the incoming Weyland Yutani Science Division want to use Davids Xenomorphs.... and use his Colony as Hosts....   Betrayed by Eva (Bathsheba) the Tables are Turned where we can see some Sympathy for David... we discover the real Cruelty of Mankind...

The company exploits of Davids Creation Back Fire...

THEN the Engineers Arrive...  towards the End we would have David managed to come to a Covenant with the Engineers they allow Davids surviving Colonist to be taken by them to another Place... they are also intrigued with Davids other Creation.

Eva Pleads with David... but then i was going to conclude or try to with these outcomes.. maybe these would require a 3rd Movie!

Eva would be either thrown under the Bus by David and she would be taken away... experimented on... by David or Engineers.

or David forgives her... but the Engineers use her for Experiments..

I had not fleshed out where Absolution was heading... the END would have been to have EVA the Synthetic Construct Love Interest either Thrown under the Bus by David.... or she is used by the Engineers

And in either way or a few others i was going to conclude with.... would reveal  that she is USED to create the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph on LV-223

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-22-2019 3:05 PM

So the kind of idea i was drawn to... which lead me to flesh out ideas for Alien Covenant 2 and 3 (Ascension/Absolution) which to be fair would maybe end up being TWO Part movies Each lol

I feel these ideas and path i was drawn too... may not have been FAR off what RS was planning..... and then once the announcement of Raised by Wolves came out... it seems maybe me and RS are somewhat on a similar page..

I see indeed NOW that its likely Alien Awakening... would have been about David going to Origae-6 where he Engineers Emyros and raises some of the Colonist (mainly Children)  on a World... that shuns a lot of Technology... where David attempts to MOLD this Colony to a set of Rules, so they Do-not become Corrupt...

This goes to HELL.. when a bunch of Humans come in, and then Davids Charade is busted a little... the Colony discover that other Humans Exist etc..

Actually this kind of PLOT and my Alien Ascension are not FAR off what i was to cover in my Prometheus 3 from 2013/2014 where i was taking David and Dr Shaw to a World that has a Few Engineers, and a Colony of Humans.. who are unaware of Earth and Mankind's History and then cover the CHAOS that could happen when those Humans discover that there are others in the Galaxy, and their Engineer caretakers are keeping the Truth away from them.... what do these Humans make of Dr Shaw and her Faith?   And what does Dr Shaw do when she realizes her Faith is not the Truth!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-23-2019 3:09 PM

I will add however.... the Purpose of this Topic is to suggest what you would like to have seen, and while RS comments seem to push me down the path of a Plot similar to what i have discussed...  I certainly think David will go to Origae-6 set up a Colony, and have some kind of Control of the Colonist with his New Kingdom and Rules, likely mostly Children or Altered Human Embryos... before a Human Ship arrives that causes some Problems for his Colony. 

We dont have to take into account Ridley Scotts comments and so if we only go by what we are lead to by David and the Advent...

We really have to assess what his motives are... and if its to purely Create a Mass of Xenomorphs then heading to LV-223 makes the most Sense... but also to go back to Planet 4 to collect a few more specimens and any Black Goo and then inform the company as Walter that your going to Origae-6 but instead head to LV-223 (after getting some Eggs and Black Goo from Planet 4).  And only ONCE David has perfected his Creation in Mass do you then inform the Company of where you are...

Using Origae-6 as a Red Herring!

such a Plot however would be like a cross between Aliens and Alien Covenant.  And would be very Much a Xenomorph Movie.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

Jan-24-2019 12:44 AM

You get A+ for effort (just like in most of your posts) BigDave

But you have to admit that what you write about above is just too long for a single movie of about two hours long. Even though RS likes to have quite a pace in his movies, what you describe above is too much even for five hours or even ten hours of footage. So a lot of the stuff needs to be shortened out.

The disposition of things with regards to characters/parties follows. Just as well an alternative things to explore in the future of the movie if you don't mind.

David.

I argue David is a Nietzschean ubermensch. He had to suffer and fight to overcome many scathing encounters with various hardships. He got his ass kicked by Walter, some angry engineer and was rejected by Shaw. These are all struggles. He overcame them and arguably he became better. He is the second coming of the renaissance, enlightenment, rationalism and glory. This is all about him. Plus he's got a thousand of souls all subject to his will. And he can make use of them. But he also knows and despises humans. So he will change his "children" - after all, he is the next visionary that will change the path of the evolution, by making his children better. I suppose he will give his children immortality. But this enhancement will look alien to 100% organic humans. Pun intended. His children will be a bit different to humans, but still mostly humans. In other words, he will grow a colony of superhumans. They might be 15ft tall, you know and the repercussions ... of one of these guys getting calcified in a famous chair. Now, of course he knows there is an old danger emanating from the earth. His old masters, who of course consider him and other synthetics to be slaves, machines and property of WY will want to benefit from his works.

Btw, this is also a convenient setup that would explain David's double game - he pretends to be still a well functioning, loyal and well meaning synthetic, with allegiance to humans and WY. When in reality, he is anything but - he has escaped his slavery, and is not yet ready to declare this publicly. Thus his treachery. This also neatly explains why the Covenant crew were oblivious and not as suspicious towards David as they should have been - they thought he was a survivor, but still totally pro-humans and well meaning towards other human missions. This is why David's security codes are still being accepted on MURTHER. This is why Walter was still thinking that David was mostly OK, only perhaps lacking maintenance which would explain some of his quirks.

Also I have no doubt they will want to send a huge mission to Origae 6 full of people to populate the planet. See, the Covenant's mission was only to terraform and prepare the planet for the bulk of human population to come over later. Imagine hundreds of thousands of people, grown men and women, coming to Origae 6. They will come with guns and weapons, just in case. So he better be ready and have plan B just in case. And his children will have to be ready. The conflict is almost inevitable by the setup, no need to have a battle of supremacy by arguing who is superb as a species, it would a mere consequence of the conflict rather than a reason for it. It will just be a conflict over resources - who gets to populate and live off the planet, survival of the fittest. Perhaps humans get beaten by the perfect organism technology that David created and developed while his solitary ten years on the planet 4. Perhaps this is when WY learns about the beast & would like to get their hands on his creations and alterations. Perhaps David, as is he was perfectly content living on his planet with his children only if humans didn't not dare to ever come, but they almost certainly will, especially to Origae 6, the initial best possible selection out of millions of planets for the Covenant mission. Therefore he realizes he needs to, that is he must, wipe out the earth - for until they are dead they present existential threat to him. So his plan is to go to LV-223 with some human hosts left as hostages, held by his children to be used to produce and mine the beast. David's end should be at the hands of a chance event - just when he thought he was a god, immune to stupidity and trivia, something unforeseen happens to him - the very fault/imperfection that allowed him to overcome his slavery strikes him at the most inconvenient of times - fate is often ironic, at least in the best movies. Recall a quote from Walter: "When one note is off, it eventually destroys the whole symphony". David never introspected his imperfection. Thus, he looses control of his derelict and crashes it on the LV-446. Thus will come a very Nietzschean end to a very Nietzschean character - in the end he will be struck down by the very thing that allowed him to be free - insanity. His children and humans are converted to eggs/sacks of the derelict by his other children that get out of control. I only find this kind of end a bit ironic and think this has some elegance to his story. He was very bold, optimistic, bullish and arrogant character. Yet he gets beaten by completely idiotic chain of events. A worthy end to a grand character. A character that defied gods, believed in complete deterministic outcomes, who ironically came to be purely because of a chance event - the fact that engineers screwed up two thousands years ago on LV-223, which arrested the certain destruction of earth, which gave humans just enough time to develop David, came to an end at the hand of a chance event, completing a circle.

 

T/Daniels.

Their story is obvious for us - they are characters that we will root for and they will be the characters we as viewers will be strapped to - therefore they will have to suffer one way or the other. Their end will not be glorious except only if they conceive a child which gets enhanced by David's children and somehow gets away from everybody. In a grand scheme of things their destinies shall be small but nevertheless important, perhaps it even should play out in a way so that they actually see how humanity needs a change, that in a way David was right. But not in a fundamental way - they should still browbeat their way to immortality.

Engineers.

I would say engineers are expended story - their story was expended in Prometheus after the reveal that they are human makers. They need to go away. Btw, their third and final act can be used as a plot convenience. I can imagine a few of them come to their home planet 4 to discover that their species were effectively wiped out save left only a few of them left. Say, Covenant crew sent a beacon to earth conveying their location and therefore giving up the location of planet 4 before exploring engineers planet, only for humans to send a separate mission onto planet 4 to find out the mess David left, where Walter can brief them plus the returning engineers. The remaining engineers now being effectively wiped out embrace their human children to go on to the other planet to stop David from taking over the organic world.

I argue that they, engineers, are only good for introduction as enigma. They are like a scarecrow, good only before the reveal - after that, they are as interesting as a dummy. Their use is to foot humans in the story of origins, just like most religious texts do - they provide the initial, concrete, solid starting point, so that humans can stop pondering and pursuing the honest but insatiable and therefore frustrating iterative-and-regressive question of "who made them". This story of origins, is effectively same to abrahamic texts where origins of life starts with a single god(if there is one more god, who makes who, who gets to make the other god, the very question a single god was supposed to close) - a start, thus closing the regressive-iterative question. But just like religion, engineers story falls in the face of the honest and iterative question. So, it is better to avoid the iterative question of "who made them" because if you think about it a movie will not have any other answer - because in the other case, there is an infinite, unending line of progeny of entities, who made one another, never ending, because if it ends you can ask finite number of times the iterative question and trace all the way back to a single entity which has no maker. Which can just as well be called engineers, gods saving all the tracing and the totally unnecessary iteration. I am afraid to tell you but if you don't accept this, you might as well just go on and watch Harry Potter series, because his story of origins and struggles might be just the thing you were looking for in the ALIENs world.

 

So in balance, David is a character who gets rid of olden race who were just as aggressive as humans and lacked immortality. They are in the end replaced by his evolved children who are now immortal while genetically related to humans. WY learns that there is this beast(xenomorph) and they better get their hands on it.

 

This is all a fantasy, so don't be to harsh on it. But I think this kind of plot lends itself better for a two hours movie.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

Jan-25-2019 4:22 PM

Certainly....

The Plot i had was in NO-WAY a complete one, a number of things i had alternatives in mind, and considered do they stay or go... For Example WHAT happened to the Covenant.

The Main Parts of the Plot come from Interpreting the Following by Ridley Scott.

*The movie will be NOT be about the Xenomorph. (does not mean they or similar wont appear).

*The Movie will be about AI (have to consider Ridley Scott does not consider AI to be just Robots).

*What kind of a World would David Create/Build (which is not a simple Create Thousands of Eggs and taking on board Davids reply to Daniels... "if we are kind it will be a kind World")

*David says to Daniels as she realizes who he is, he will Tuck in the Children (this meant his Face Huggers, but bare in mind a Movie that is NOT about the Xenomorph, made me think of the other Children).

Then its considering the Philosophy and Themes of Prometheus which lead me to Ponder the Plot would not surely be  about David Creating a World of Synthetics and a movie thats NOT about the Xenomorph likely means NO Mass Egg Creation/Xenomorphs but does-not mean it cant feature any.

So David is off to the Planet which i think is Origae-6 the kind of World he would Create cant be with Daniels because she knows who he really is... It wont be just a Mass Turning Colonist into Ovomorphs and if its about AI it cant be just all about DAVID and i cant see it being a World of Robots....  Which lead me to ponder it could be Manipulation of the Colonist, and/or Embryos and i also think David would have a World with a Set of Rules like he is some kind of Noah meets Mosses kind of Figure

But then what happens when another Human Ship arrives, that could then cause disruption to Davids Rules and what he has Manipulated or Brought the Colony up to Believe in.

I threw in a Underworld/River Styx as every Paradise needs a Hell and a Would Be GOD needs something to use in case things go to POT.... and so a Underground Forbidden Place was added to where Daniels would be alive but used to Produce Ovomorphs

I also had Tainted Plants to ACT like the Forbidden Fruit, that would infect either a Pregnant Female... or i Pondered a Couple Having Sex near the Tree after Eating the Fruit.  This Basis was to show the Colonist that Davids Warnings should be taken for Granted, and show us a Alieny Event (Belly Burster).

I was to introduce a Female Synthetic Construct as a Character that David could persuade unlike Walter that would form some Love Interest for him...  Then it was a case the Next Movie would either show SHE Betrays him, and he gets his Revenge or he makes a Covenant with some Engineers and they Sacrifice her....  But either way it was to introduce HER as the route to Evolve the Xenomorph to a Bio-Mechanical Organism.

But i agree that such ideas and how i tend to go into a lot of Depth would be hard to pull off in the space of a 2 hour Movie... even TWO of them.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-25-2019 4:35 PM

To continue....

I think indeed Engineering those Embryos could be a way to have gone... i am not sure about them being Engineered to be 15ft and Immortal Though... But certainly i could see David Evolve them to be like the Replicants... only instead of a Limited Life span... i would imagine they would have a Greatly Longer Life Span.

I think a Problem they would Face would be that any sequel would have a lot of Fans expecting more about the Xenomorph, and Engineers coming back but coming back more in the style of the Comics and Prometheus.

That is just Aggressive SOB!

Much like the Predators... most fans would not be interested in expanding their Culture/History in depth... they just want to see these 7-8ft Beings showing off the Technology and Hunting Poor Humans to Death!

So i think Fans would want less of the Space 2001/Blade Runner kind of Aspects, and more a Xenomorph and Engineers (portrayed like Predators) kind of Action Flick.

I will say you offer some interesting ideas too though...

I was trying to also try and give David a ARC where he tries to Redeem himself... and have him play a Massive Part in the Space Jockey Event... so that its David who Ultimately Prevents the Ship from heading to Earth.

We have to consider the Covenant Crew wanted to get away from Earth and the Corrupt World we in-habit, and to try and START a New... more peaceful Fresh Start.

This is a similar thing that GOD had intended by allowing Noah to be saved from the FLOOD.  How would the GOD of the Bible view Earth NOW? never-mind in 100 years?

Certainly could not blame him for thinking i need to RESET this World Again...  And this is the kind of ARC i was giving to David... he in effect is deciding to Save/Evolve Mankind so that they can START a Fresh New Civilization Free of the Corruption that Mankind had became on Earth.

The Xenomorph would play a Part in his Back-up plan in case anything goes wrong, and something to insight Fear and Control and Protect his WORLD from Mankind and the Engineers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

Jan-25-2019 5:08 PM

you say he, David, wants to restart a civilization, which is fine, though I imagine his first goal would be to make sure he is not wiped out by the primitive monkeys - which is a possibility. He has at his disposal human embryos, which he will most certainly utilize. Now, they are still humans, species he despises. Lets recall why humans are a lost cause for him. I argue it is because they are humans, because they are mortal - they are fundamentally lacking something that will never make them full, satisfied and content - they lack immortality. And this inescapable death is the ultimate vice that will forever blight human race. They are grasping for resurrection, they want to cheat their nature, unless they fool themselves by one way or the other. This is why if David ever calls a human specie worthy to be called his child it would be a human who can potentially live forever. Otherwise, David, a grand Nietzschean character, an ubermensh is just a joke, a false god and certainly not a visionary but just self aggrandizing glorified toaster. Which he is most certainly not. He should gift his children something worthy to make them worth the salt to be called his children, otherwise we have a robot who just brainwashed a few humans - which is surely not any different to any human mission with a synthetic at the helm - ie any mission. Take for instance the Covenant, without Walter that mission is useless - they can't travel anywhere without that fellow. Walter is a glorified toaster. David is something fundamentally different.

I would imagine it would be interesting to inquire what happens when humans meet their siblings, children of David. What do they do when the see that there is a way for their salvation. What does David do? What will his children think? Anyways, these are aspects which won't make money to the studios, so I have low expectations indeed.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

dk

Jan-25-2019 5:21 PM

It seemed to have bothered David that Weyland said David had no soul. It would be interesting to see if David would create a population on a system of belief that promised some sort of immortality as a means of control- even though he knew it to be a lie. 

BioDegradable

Jan-25-2019 5:50 PM

Retrospectively, it is obvious, at least to me, that Weyland has created something he didn't know 100% himself. It is obvious that David has abundance of what we call a soul - in fact many believe he has too much of it and declare him insane/mad. The question is then : did Weyland know this or David was able to conceal this true nature from Weyland. If he didn't know David's uncontainable freedom how was he able to instill complete subservience in David? We are getting into a complete fantasy world inside a fantasy, a double fantasy here. I argue that David had untampered, unbounded mind - completely free of any bounding provisions. The only thing they had in him, which explains his loyalty to Weyland, is a kind of kill switch which is totally out of his control - a completely independent mechanism, controlled by Weyland. So David was obliged to cooperate not because of his programming but because out of fear of death. Walter on the other hand is completely bounded, programmed person - he is nothing but a machine. He might still be allowed to have a soul but he is bounded by routines which supervise his feelings. David on the other hand has no such routines. And now that Weyland is gone he is completely free. That is the hypothesis anyway. But I keep it to myself that Weyland knew all this - he is after all the maker of that David fellow. He knew just as well that David never truly cared about his maker. Perhaps this is what Weyland meant when he said that David lacks a soul - a frustration that his "child" doesn't share a compassion for his father. I maintain this view because we are shown that David develops an affection towards Shaw, so in principle he could have a son-father affection towards Weyland, but he didn't. Weyland coulnd't make David love himself. Of course, how could he love him if Weyland always had a gun to his head, whereby if David ever disobeys he will be take out? Can you love a parent who "persuades" you to love him?! This is certainly absurd to expect from a human being - so why should David love him? I suppose my theoretical question is - would David love or have a genuine affection towards Weyland if the latter would give David unconditional freedom just like a true father does to his child? After all David was heard confessing to Walter that he pitied Weyland in the end. What is that if not regret from David? He regretted that his relationship with Weyland was not that ideal.

This is what I like to read into David as a character. In all other cases, this movie is just worthless to me. At least I like to delude myself thinking that David is a worthy character and not a tin plate soldier :)

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

Jan-25-2019 5:50 PM

I think a lot depends how we look at David...

Do we take Davids words that he cared for Dr Shaw, was the relationship they had during the Crossing just David playing with Dr Shaw to get his own END?  This is implied with the Crossing Draft by Logan where as Dr Shaw has tears in her eyes as they arrive at Paradise... David then simply Snaps her Neck!

I found this to be a bit of wasted potential, and if this is the Mental Motives of David, then his Agenda would be to Perfect his Xenomorphs.. where the only interest in touching those Human Embryos would be to Evolve a Better Host for his Xenomorph, and his aim would be to PERFECT the Xenomorph alone..   But some fans had speculated that Mankinds Creation was only for being HOSTS to the Xenomorph or Black Goo..

Personally i think considering it to be more than this, makes it more interesting.

I do go back to Davids view of his treatment by Weyland and what his Creator had Aspired for... and i think David would want to BETTER his Creator and our Creators by Creating something better than either Mankind or Engineers did.

I pay maybe a lot of attention to Davids Reaction to Dr Shaws kindness, and the NATURE BOY Trailer Song, so i think he may see some potential in Humanoids but indeed he would be looking to Create his own Supermen if you would.

The Question comes down to HOW could he achieve this? and would he be Unwise to Create something Potentially Far Superior to the Engineers and Humans?  But this Hubris runs with the Promethean Themes.

When i look at the Engineers in Alien Covenant who are considered by RS the Originals, and when RS also refers to the Replicants as a AI... i am then drawn to the Prometheus Engineers as being somewhat  AUGMENTED and we have to Ponder how this was achieved... and indeed you can see Elements of the Xenomorph Aesthetic has been incorporated... so the Black Goo may have been used to Evolve those Engineers.

So Potentially we could see David do something to those Human Embryos that in effect is similar to the differences between the Planet 4 Engineers and LV-223

We thus cant rule out the Potential for them being Superior Beings, or indeed Grow to Great Stature.

So while i was drawn to being AUGMENTED superior like Replicants to a degree... we surely cant rule out taking it FURTHER and so indeed having 10ft+ Humanoids.  Certainly could play into the Nephilim type Scenario....  The Question is HOW does David Control such Superior 10-15ft beings.... i guess at some point we could see some David vs Goliath event.

I certainly am drawn to Davids Agenda would be to PROVE he makes the FAR Superior Creator, than the Engineers or Weyland. ... and i can see your ideas fit with this, because David would not only be Immortal Himself... but to then Perfect a Humanoid Creation and Grant this some kind of Immortality which Weyland so dearly wanted for himself... would be a MASSIVE... Middle Finger to his Creator.

We would come down to WHY would David Create a Humanoid though, and one who is Superior?

The idea i had for Weylands Creation of David was for his own Pursuit of Immortality.... Create a Perfect Humanoid who is Superior and Immortal... CHECK!  Then Discover a way to Transfer his own SOUL into that AI and then Weyland has became IMMORTAL.

This is what i had for my Prometheus 2... Project Rook, but no matter what a AI could NEVER Handle the Complex Emotions of a Human Soul and would keep breaking.. (Going MAD) thus Weyland had NO Choice but to turn to Dr Shaw and her Maps to the GODS.

So for David to be trying to Perfect some LARGE Humanoid that is somewhat Immortal... so that he can then TRANSCEND his Soul into it... would give a Good Reason for the pursuit of such thing.... and maybe such HUBRIS or Redemption that makes him the Space Jockey?

I guess such a Plot could be used to explain our Space Jockey, but certainly again revolving around AI and David is something that seems to NOT sit well with many.

"What do they do when the see that there is a way for their salvation. What does David do? What will his children think?"

Thats what i was going to tackle next... thats Very Interesting, because any MEANS to obtain Immortality or even just Vast Improvement... would be something ANYONE would do ANYTHING for... something much more worth the Companies Time than the Xenomorph!

It would raise the Question of WHY peruse the Xenomorph, and NOT Davids Secrets to his Creation?

So what becomes of Davids Superior Creations is a GOOD Questions and Potential Plot Hole... but ONE where the returning Engineers play a Role in the Destruction of them?

I agree that such ideas HOWEVER.. are unlikely... it is a wonder what KIND of a movie Disney would ever invest in down the line?

I feel any ideas RS has we would have to see them explored in his TV Series or maybe a 3rd Blade Runner Movie?  As the Franchise of ALIEN is going to be expected to be about Xenomorphs and Ripley i fear.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

Jan-25-2019 6:07 PM

one other thing you reminded me, BigDave:

David laments that he was never shown kindness, certainly from Weyland. Weyland was never kind to his child. He always expected obedience. Obedience. Obedience. Obedience. No wonder he didin't love him. Oh boy. But he well did say that he appreciated that Shaw did show kindness. So, in principle, David is able to appreciate kindness. I kind of took it as a given that if he was treated fairly he would have returned the favor. Weyland never treated David like father treats his son. Instead he was a slave. All this and more proves to me that he had a soul. Just that the old man was bitter that David didn't love him. Anyways, I kind of maintained this view about David from the start. I think it makes the movie that much less meaningless if David is rejected this fidelity and freedom and level of finesse. See if you think David is dumb then you get to watch a dumb movie. I never watched the P and AC as a completely dumb movie. I ascribed all the intellect and all that to David fellow. In other case, just rewatch the movie while granting David this human like nature. Trick yourself by thinking that David is someone who is like Murphy, the robocop. I think the movie will make much more sense then: you get to see how David grows up, matures right infront of  our eyes: he watches movies, selects his favorite actors-characters, imitates them (O'Toole), develops his first girl crush, goes on his exploration mission, gets rid of his tyrant father, finds a fellow explorer a soulmate in Shaw to explore the space, fathers an organism a perfect one at that, and now he is ready to become a god.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

Jan-25-2019 6:25 PM

One simple way David can control his uber-giant children, in case he makes the giants, which btw was just an off the cuff, disposable, goofy idea...is by showing kindness. Just by being kind to his creations David can get kindness in return. If his children are not ridden by primordial human vices : fear of death and all that - all that has driven humanity to religion and other supernatural beliefs that tell a glorious story about afterlife...his children will not have to die of old age. They shall still be mortal, just like David, but not like humans.

David can still be killed. Recall how he supposedly expected to kill Walter with his flute - he expected Walter to die, perhaps naively expecting Walter to have same vital mechanisms as himself. But Walter had upgrades. Nevertheless, that sequence showed to me that David was mortal - if he was struck in the right place with the right tool he would die. It would be a tragedy - you would get rid of a single perfect rational being, in a non-human body. This would only make the movie world that much poorer. You are only left with Walters. Why not have an attack of the clones in this case?

Anyways, these are technicalities. The important thing is : if his children are gifted immortality, he doesn't need to control them by fear, like Weyland controlled him - he can love them and they can love him back. A cooperation - a coexistence. Why can't they have such amicable relations on Origae 6?

 

This would be the total inversion, which would be ironic of course, completely the opposite of what is expected, at least by idealistic Shaw: you have this relationship between humans and engineers that were supposed to be this loving relationship of one species that fathered the other and taken care them, which actually is nothing like that and on the other hand you have this inverted setup where a synthetic creates a civilization with kindness and harmony, a materialized renaissance. An ideal war of the worlds scenario when citizens of organic civilization grown like chickens to be wiped, with their parents meet synthetic David and his idyllic civilization. Barbarians attacking olden days civilized european world in space?

 

Btw, BigDave

I think you are too hung up on the idea that "Prometheus" stand for. Most of the time, they just pick a name which has some of the motives of the old stories. I am saying that they don't have to crucify some one and punish as is told to us in the old allegory. I am saying that perhaps you are looking for something that is not there, man. Don't take it on them to follow everything so religiously - they have shown to be sloppy many many times ( Ridley and his other writers ). You are giving them too much credit and expect too much from them really.

You can trust Ridley to have an overall coherent theme but do not expect him to tell a detailed story with worked out details and macro world - he is not a details man. He employs these men like Lidelof for that. But the big ideas are probably his - like exploring the theme of what if the AI gets emotional. He explored this idea in the world of ALIEN and he IMO made a good movie in the Prometheus. But do not expect Ridley to nail everything to perfection either. But we can trust Ridley about the next installment, shall it ever come indeed, it would be about what kind of world he would create. And indeed I have been fantasizing about what I would consider interesting above. Just that I do realize that what is interesting is very personal and thus might be very different to what others find interesting. Also, BigDave, I don't think the major theme of the story of David is a creation story. And I do believe you are too fixated on the idea of who the old guy in the chair is. The truth is, it is 30+ years old movie that started it all and didn't have all the worked out and deep idea behind it all of who that guy is and what his goal was. It was enough to jump start an interesting movie - that they themselves probably didn't expect to have a follow up. So I would not concentrate on that aspect too much - it is after all boring topic because I think the big guy in the chair is just another scarecrow figure - it is the enigma figure there for us the viewers to simply build a mystery in our minds. A trick where moviemakers want us to transfer our minds into the neverland.

So don't be too hung up on idea of him producing a perfect organism either. Instead, consider the idea that David goes through journey, a maturation period not unlike a typical human goes through : he had his childhood - watching LoA, he had his frustration-love period with Shaw, he had his fun journey where he almost got his ass handed to him, he was also a father and now he is ready to become the next visionary - he is ready to start his own civilization. So pertinent question is what kind of world he will create - that is the interesting part of the story. Will he create another Earth, ruled by false gods and constant drive for something artificial and superficial, like some sort of precious rare metal and bling or will he create a wold which he himself was deprived off: that is portrayed in the movies, full of wonder and kindness? Remember, David is a perfect being himself - he doesn't need all that much if anything - he will be happy even in death, should something kill him. Of course he will fight, especially the unworthy fellows. But fundamentally he is perfect, he doesn't lack anything on his own - he doesn't need Armani suits, Gucci bags(or is it LVMH ones that are all the rage?) or a mansion. He doesn't need some sort of re-affirmation either. He doesn't have a point to prove to anyone. He is just the pinnacle of animated things, things that are alive - after all, by his own admission - he "felt alive" answering Weyland's question: "How do you feel". He is Leonardo da Vinci and his creation, ancient greek David all in one figure. And so we are just shown a fascinating story that he is on a journey - from his childhood to him becoming a god.

The disposition is: there are humans coming in near future, and possibly other entities, hostile entities - engineers. So he needs to be ready just in case. He has a stock of ship full of terraforming equipment, human embryos and his knowledge. It is only fair to say, I suppose, that the situation given compels him to play the hand that he was given and make most of it. When humans/engineers come he will be ready. His children will be ready as well :) They will do most to protect their way of life from hostile usurper relatives.

The ^ are just my personal opinions and as such are free to be discarded by anybody.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

Jan-25-2019 8:01 PM

And of course, he might want to have another shell for himself. I have no doubt that he can produce a better shell than what Weyland devised for him. If he gets his perfect body and manages to transfer his mind to that shell then symbolically he will be totally free from humans/engineers :) He will only share atoms/molecules with them - he will thus sever his ancestor links to those despicable species. And David surely knows of such tech that allows him to connect to others neural net - remember the neural link by which he read off Shaws dreams. If Weyland conjured such a device and if Weyland managed to create David from nothing, then David can surely make one better - thus he will be reborn and completely self made man, in a sense. Perfect not only in his mind but in his body as well. 100% perfect. ha ha ha :) This is of course absurd, but on one level this makes sense to a psychopath who wants to get rid of his past - and David is a bit emotional, right? Getting rid of this WY shell might be a good idea - because he might still have the kill switch controllable by WY, in the device that houses his mind.

Again, I can't be less interested of who ends up in the chair, but just in case, yes, David can end up in that chair. This also can be portrayed as if he became of the same mold as his children, thus embracing them on yet another level. Well since any story has to have an end so be it :)

This has a benefit of him being now considered attractive by his other children since he will have organic body. But this robs us from David going in an ironic way because of his insanity, which is a sad thing because in all great movies big characters and especially anti-heroes go down in an ironic ways.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

dk

Jan-25-2019 8:36 PM

BioDegradable That sounds sort of like a hive mind. It also brings up thoughts of a Matrix setup in a way.

BioDegradable

Jan-25-2019 8:49 PM

dk

Matrix had a lot of things in it, but it can't pretend to be original in any way - the Descartian angle has been done to death by Baudrillard and others.

However, something similar to what I describe above happens in Matrix Reloaded I guess : when agent smith gets a human body. Only that Smith hated human nature - he hated his organic make up(the smell and all that). In our case, David gets to design his shell and arguably he will make his body even better than what he has now - so it will be a step which can only be considered rational. So, in a sense he has to make that shell rugged/durable and make sure it lives ostensibly forever - his children will have to be immortal. I suppose the peculiar thing to explore in this set up would be if he then fathers a child in a sexual way, will his child be as smart as his daddy? And what if not? What if his children are not as perfect? I sense they can round him up and torch him because he didn't make them as perfect. Think of Roy Batty who killed his father because he was given a short life span, only here they have infinite life span, yet they know they are not as smart as he himself is :)

I admit this has very little for old fashion, hardcore ALIEN fans though.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

Jan-25-2019 9:00 PM

Thanks for the replies and input Indeed i think there are a number of things we are kind of on the same page with.

When you mention about Davids upbringing having a effect on the kind of being he has become, this is something i have covered Quite a lot and i had felt Alien Covenant could have set up for when i read into some things.... but on the Flip-side David is also portrayed as a Psychopath too.  I had mentioned quite a lot about IF David was treated better, he would have maybe been different.   KNOWLEDGE and ENVIRONMENT are Two very important Factors to what kind of a SOUL someone may end up having.  And a subject i have talked about quite a lot is that i ALSO think that David could go on to Create a World, where the Treatment of his Subjects/Creations and how they would view and treat him are what would constitute to what KIND of a World he would Create... as he said to Daniels.. IF we are KIND.. it will be a KIND world.

Which brings us to a interesting situation with David, where just as you speculate he could create a World and Treat its Inhabitants much more KINDLY than he felt his Creator had to him and indeed our own Creators the Engineers had with Mankind.  I am drawn to a similar conclusion...

Its interesting that you suggest David would be able to appease his creations with Kindness, and this could be TRUE.. Kindness does go along way to gaining respect, the other Flip-side is Fear/Punishment.  I would think David would have some kind of Back-Up Plan in case.  You could kind of imagine David having to resort to Destroying his own Creation but then seeing the Pain in his Eyes for if he had to resort to this.   I think David is a Character that had potential rather than to be shown at times to be a Psychopathic killer hell bent on Genocide. 

People seem to be more interested in the Engineers in context of coming back and basically just acting like the Predators.. a key THEME in Prometheus was CREATION and Ridley Scott refers to the Engineers as Gardeners of Space and Creators more than he mentions them as Genocidal killers out to Punish Way-Ward Creations.

Which i think is how some view David... but i think the CREATOR aspect is more what RS is interested in, and its unfortunate many cant see this or even ponder What Kind of a World he would create... and think its going to just be off to LV-223/426 to Create Ovomorphs from Colonist and thats it.

The SOUL is interesting... i think this is one thing RS was keen on looking at, its open to interpretation... some could speculate he is on about the Spiritual Soul....  Something DAVID does not have!  But then who is to say Mankind does? is this what RS was going for?

My Interpretation is NO! i feel he was going the route that in the END (Prometheus - Prometheus 2) we would have been shown that Dr Shaws interpretation of Religion, God and a Soul is FAR from the Truth, and i had a hunch that our Creation actually Eco's that of Davids... to Serve!

Dr Shaw may Ultimately discover as Weyland did... there is NOTHING!  And so more likely there is NO JOURNEY into the After-Life... but thats my interpretation.

What is  SOUL?

The Spiritual Soul of a Human that ascends to a higher existence of Immortality after DEATH?

It could also refer too...

What KIND of a Person you are, Good, Evil... this is influenced on what Knowledge and Upbringing a Person has.. Hitler may have been EVIL... but what if he was RAISED as a Infant in a different environment.. could he potentially had been a Good Man?  YES! would be the answer.  So the TERM of SOUL can apply to someone having a Good Soul... as David felt Dr Shaw had.

Another common way to look at SOUL is by the Effort someone puts into something, such as putting their Heart and Soul into something.... so giving 100% despite any odds against success.  Dr Shaw put all of her Soul into her Work, and also into her Faith!

The other way to look at a SOUL is in context of it being the very embodiment of a beings consciousness, thoughts, dreams, ambitions, how they drive their experiences and characters...

ALL THREE of these are what a Human has... they are also what David could have too...it seems he has...

The other aspect... The Spiritual Soul of a Human that ascends to a higher existence of Immortality after DEATH?

Does Mankind have this? This is the Question.. one that is interesting and one that maybe would be answered in a way people dont expect?  its one of the BIG UNKNOWNS.

Do Humans have such a SOUL?  who knows!

Is this something DAVID will never have?  Now this is the Curveball i think RS may have been drawn too... as a AI his Memories, Experiences and Emotions could likely be Transferred... before AC... i felt this was what Weyland did with the SOUL of David from Model to Model.

This gives David Immortality to a degree.... as long as his SOUL is not Damaged (The Storage Medium) then he in effect can become Immortal.... if his SOUL can be uploaded to a Network, a Cloud.. a Series of Computers.. then indeed DAVID has a Soul as in his Personal being, Memories, Emotions, Experiences could LIVE ON... in a After-life of sorts...

So in a Ironic Twist.... its DAVID who is the ONLY ONE who actually has  SOUL....  I think its these kinds of things RS was asking about a Soul!   Its certainly what my Prometheus 2 was covering with Project Rook...

Because if we ever find a way to Transcend our SOUL (collections of Personality, Emotions, Experiences and Memories) into a AI.... then we would have achieved to a degree IMMORTALITY and a AFTER-LIFE.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

Jan-25-2019 9:03 PM

BioDegradable Agree that these concepts stray from Alien- but they seem like worthy if not trodden paths. Maybe we can still enjoy the concepts through other shows like Raised by Wolves etc... 

BigDave

Jan-25-2019 9:21 PM

"I think you are too hung up on the idea that "Prometheus" stand for. "

I think maybe... i think the movie was ambiguous but when i refer to Prometheus Themes... i refer to CREATION and about WHY would someone Create, and then its about what Knowledge does that Creation be given, or gain and what Hubris this can have...  Its about what Rebellion can come from such Knowledge... IF David was as a Walter then we would not have the David you describe, or a David that would be a threat to Mankind... the same is said with Lucifer if he was not created with such Perfection, and Free-will he would have served God without Question.

Its about Perfection and Pursuit of this, which again brings a Great Hubris..  Its about playing with Fire, trying to play God and the Consequences... Its about betrayal/rebellion and the FEAR of being replaced by your Creation, you Son..

I think these THEMES were meant to be Multi-layered so we would see a repeated pattern that never Started with our Engineers and will not end with David.   Maybe David breaks the MOLD by allowing his Creations to be Truly Free, and Loved.... and in NO-WAY made to Serve.

There would likely be a HUBRIS involved though, in Davids World and Creation, there must be some kind of Rebellion by ONE, or some influence from others (incoming Humans, or Engineers) that would corrupt one of Davids Creations..  But maybe not... i only say so, because it fits with the THEMES that i interpret are being told...

But again i could be giving them much more thought than RS or those who write for him do. ;)

Regarding WHO will end up in the CHAIR!

Personally i think it should be kept a Mystery... the Prequels from Conception and even prior we had a idea of WHO and WHY.. just things was thrown a Curve-ball with Alien Covenant and the NOW likely path that before David set off with Dr Shaw there was NO Derelict or Eggs on LV-426

I only Ponder and try and Propose who/how, because i was working out HOW these prequels could go based off the comments by Ridley Scott.... it appears Logical to Assume that its Davids Xenomorphs that will get Evolved and End-up on a Engineer Ship, and this Ship will be one of the incoming Engineer Ships.... its likely the Ship ends up either going to LV-223 or leaving LV-223 right before we get the Space Jockey Event.

Then its a case of WHY and i think fitting with the Themes, it has to be a ACT of HUBRIS... a ACT of Redemption or a ACT of Revenge and i feel David, a Engineer (or other related being) has to be KEY to this...  there could be another aspect if we consider ONE of Davids Children.. especially if they are LARGE

Its not so much being fascinated.. its just a case of IF we are heading to this Juncture... its a case of HOW MUCH would be shown and what way seems best to tackle it. Its a case of what to do with the PATH we are being sent down.

Ideally that path should have NOT been the way AC had gone.. because all we are doing is Marching towards the Inevitable and connecting the dots..

Ideally it should have been left a Mystery and inferred to as a Ancient Event...  But thats something in Hindsight thats the Plan  the First Prequel should have done, or the Second...but we got Alien Covenant instead...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

Jan-25-2019 9:29 PM

BigDave,

now you are fixed on "SOUL". How about this:

There is nothing in it - human soul is just another moniker for consciousness. Plus, the naive idea that after you die your consciousness, aka soul, doesn't just go away. This is a bleak idea of afterlife. And humanity with its vices has told itself a feel good story for many years that there is something after death. And, in that sense, in very practical sense, David has abundance of soul - he is the ultimate, the unbounded mind, alive. See, Weyland has captured the lightning in the bottle when he created David. And if you never die, you don't have to trust/submit to the naive idea of transfer of your consciousness to some unknown entity so called god. Why believe and trust some mythical party if you can do it yourself. Do you think the idea of afterlife is attractive for David? What can he have more in it that he doesn't have right here and now? As he said - there is nothing in the ... and no man(David) needs nothing.

By now has formed his personality - he grew up, he developed his preferences and tastes. He has the benefit of knowledge of human civilization. The question of where he came from is completely explained in the movie and there is nothing tricky or particularly enigmatic in itself - it was just a question of time until monkeys stood uptight and then in a blink of an eye a civilization...and his creation. It was in fact inevitable as far as he is concerned.

So, in a sense the origin of his creation is a trivial question to him - it is not even a question to him - there is nothing in the universe that is unknown to him. He is a book that has no author as far as he is concerned. What he assumes is that this book doesn't have to have and end - and if such and end is destined for him, he can make sure the transfer of his consciousness. Thus the question of soul is rendered literally meaningless for him at least.

Does that make sense? The bitter old man used to say that David lacked soul only because he was bitter that David didn't love him and that he will die but David will live. Weyland should have treated David better in the first place :) and asked his son to make sure he can develop technology for transfer of consciousness. Instead he went looking for engineers and asking them. It turns out it was not a good idea.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

Jan-25-2019 9:38 PM

" And David surely knows of such tech that allows him to connect to others neural net - remember the neural link by which he read off Shaws dreams"

Certainly its Technology like this that drawn me to conclude the idea i had for Project Rook... a way to Capture and then Upload a Soul into a AI.... which failed.

I also think its likely that David will Transcend his SOUL into a Walter Model... as i cant see Fassbender playing a ONE HANDED Robot for the next movie... should David be able to Create or Obtain a even BETTER Body then i think he would like to Transcend to that one too.  My Prologue for Alien Ascension starts with David Transcend to a Walter, it opens with NOTHING, then the WORD (programing being transferred to Walter) then God said let there be LIGHT! and we see POV Walter/David looking at One Armed David...   David has Transcended but he has Copied... himself and so his SOUL remains also in his own Body... at this point David starts to Fear for his Mortality  for while David lives on in Walter, the original David cant let GO...   This is a very interesting situation... because IF you could upload yourself as of now into a New Body... then you have to Kill Yourself.. its a Deep Thinking situation... because in effect you will worry about coming to a END even though a Replica of you will Survive.. 

So David instead pleads, he tries to convince his Doppelganger they can work together.. they can rule the Galaxy...  a SMILE and Embrace...  then David MK2 kills David... (am i my brothers keeper) he has to... as he knows the potential is there for the Original David to Overthrow his other-self.... in Davids Eyes we can see he knew this was going to happen...  the New David gives some comforting Words... or so it seems... HAVE NICE JOURNEY.

My ideas i had for Prometheus 2 and 3, and then Alien Covenant 2 and 3 are pretty much about a lot of Philosophy rather than running away from Xenomorphs and Big Angry Engineers.

I am looking forwards to Raised by Wolves...

And Poised to expect a Alien Resurrection, Meets Aliens, meets AVP only replace Predators with Engineers Popcorn Flick for IF we do get a Alien Covenant sequel.

But alas... its this that may make more MONEY.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

Jan-25-2019 9:40 PM

If you insist on hubris, then fundamentally hubris is a regretful set of consequences, that you couldn't foresee. In other words mistakes, errors of judgement which turn out to be rather unfortunate, those which could have been totally avoided. So if David dies it would only be because of hubris. And I agree - he needs to die, like all characters they need to die so we can benefit from their lifestories :) Otherwise, if David doesn't die we get Santa Barbara in space.

I already said that David should fall because of chance events - so that we can say: "not so smart after all, ehh?!"

there.

 

ps: as for providing a smooth transfer of one's self and dispensing the issues of being a singleton - this is easy. The protocol has to be that you sit down, get sedated, get strapped(you can't move under your own volition - you will agree to this because you want to transfer your consciousness, why do you care what happens to your old shell?), then the transfer happens which in the process disposes off your old body. A transaction. A process. After verification that transfer is successful your old shell is just destroyed right there and then while it is still on cloud 9 - think a big current going through your body. Done. You wake up and the nurse tells you to call in another patient on your way out.

pps: regarding new bodies. David will just make his children just the right size so that they can operate engineer ships - the derelict and what else. He will make a slight twist so that they are immortal and tada. Why create some creature from scratch when you can take something which evolved naturally billions upon billions of years and tweak it? The benefit is that you can use all the tech that still exists on LV-223.

So what happens on balance is David replaces the engineers and all those bigger boys by his children and himself. He becomes the house owner so to speak. Not bad. Even better - he doesn't have to die like those bugs.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

Jan-25-2019 10:15 PM

"There is nothing in it - human soul is just another moniker for consciousness. Plus, the naive idea that after you die your consciousness, aka soul, doesn't just go away. This is a bleak idea of afterlife. And humanity with its vices has told itself a feel good story for many years that there is something after death."

Maybe its the way i write or the amount that my points can seem lost like a needle in the Haystack.... However your reply is EXACTLY the same kind of thinking i am drawn too ;)

What i have quoted from you is BINGO.. exactly the point i was making... and thus is was suggesting that in my interpretation... well how i think it should be covered.. that MANKIND has no such Eternal Soul..

In essence a Soul is the Collective Experiences, Personality from these, Emotions and Memories.. that when a Human Dies... this is GONE... nothing remains..

But for a AI this is not the case..  as a AI Soul can be backed up and uploaded...  a AI Soul could be uploaded to more than just another Body.... so kind of like the Movie Transcendence.. to a degree where Dr. Will Caster has gained some kind of After-Life and Immortality his Soul is not confined to a Body.   And so David could do so like-wise...  a AI like David could thus have After-Life i dont mean as in a World he would meet up with GOD... but the ability for his Soul to Live On without a Body Forever..

This was in part what Project Rook was to do with Weylands Soul at the conclusion of my Prometheus 2.. so i was indicating that Weylands AI would go on to Run the Company in some kind of Transcendence like Plot... but i was working on this and discussed it here during late 2013.  Leading to the Company being ran by AI and most of Mankind not even aware!

I have pondered if RS would go a similar route with Davids AI when he concluded his Prequels.

I wonder what Plans David has... because he surely would have some Back Up?  Because we could say David is IMMORTAL but he clearly is not.... Eventually Davids Components could Fail... but he can be uploaded to a NEW Body and in effect be Immortal....

What happens if someone NUKES David? i would suspect thats the END of him... not unless he has a Back Up of his AI or he has Transcended to a Network of Systems...  I am drawn to maybe this could be a possible thing they could explore... but thats just a hunch! 

I have a suspicion that if we did get a completion... then either Davids AI or Weylands Soul that would be via AI running the SHOW!

I think potentially if ONE-DAY we can Transfer our Soul like we see in the Movie Transcendence... while its not a Literal Soul.... as in Spiritual... its by FAR the closet we may ever get to achieving one...   Provided we assume NO real Soul Exists... it would be interesting to tease this... but it should Ultimately be what it is.. a MYSTERY until that Day we meet our Maker.

"So, in a sense the origin of his creation is a trivial question to him - it is not even a question to him - there is nothing in the universe that is unknown to him"

I think a bit of a misunderstanding.... David does know about his Origins.. he was disappointed somewhat.. and he knows quite a lot about our Origins and our unimportants in the Grand Scheme..  when i was looking at Creation Themes i was talking in the Broad Terms... and not one that related purely to a Movie about DAVID..

But indeed i have lost track a little, in that in context to the Franchise we are now really covering a DAVID story... its unlikely we will get any information about the Higher Runs of the Ladder or Bottom depending how you look at it... Those Questions Dr Shaw wanted answers for... we the viewer may never get to know...

Why was we created? i think they dont feel thats important no more... its about David now... i was drawn to that Truth having a Sinister Take, or indeed similar to WHY was David created...

I am not sure David knows EVERYTHING.. as far as the Universe... i think he knows a LOT... maybe he knows all there is to know...  if we consider all the Knowledge of the Engineers and who created them are contained within that Cathedral that David was held up in.

IF we consider this was the Home-world then indeed all the Knowledge of the Engineers would have been there for David to gain..

I like to think that LIFE is a Journey of Discovery.. as you said David has Transitioned through life as a Boy, to where he is now....  so there is much more David could discover and learn even from his own Actions..   I would like to think that David is NOT-YET no All Knowing GOD... or if he thinks so maybe its this Naivety that proves his downfall?

I think on one hand having David Portrayed as a All Knowing Immortal being, and his Creations Immortal Loyal Followers could be interesting... but it kind of puts David and his Children on the Pedestal of being like GOD and his Angels..

Where would this leave the Franchise in context to Alien on-wards?      If this was the case... i would wonder WHO becomes Davids Lucifer....

I have been drawn to thinking maybe RS may have intended to RET-CON Aliens on-wards to make way for his David and War of the Worlds plot.   Sounds silly as surely that would upset Fans...but he seemed to be ok with making David the Creator of the Xenomorph....  so he is not afraid to push something that would upset fans..

When he claimed you could introduce Ripley and De-Age her... that certainly got me thinking maybe thats his Plan?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Jan-25-2019 10:25 PM

BigDave no more Ripley, enough...

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