If David created the classic xenomorph, how did thousands of eggs get aboard the derelict ship in the original Alien?2 Upvotes44 RepliesUpvoteAdd A Reply
'There are currently two schools of thought on that: one where David was the first to create the classic Xenomorph, and one where he simply recreated a process via his experimentation that others had already mastered. And which theory is correct depends on the age of the derelict ship in Alien (1979).
It is often presumed that the derelict ship found on LV-426 in Alien had been there for thousands of years because Dallas makes a comment about the corpse of the pilot looking "fossilized". However, as Prometheus highlighted, the Engineers wear a suit and helmet that resembles an exoskeleton, and so this may appear to look like fossilized remains when in actuality it isn't (the crew of the Nostromo did not make a thorough examination of the pilot, merely a brief visual inspection and an assumption). At the time, the makers of Alien kept everything about the ship purposely vague, so the pilot and derelict ship could have crashed on LV-426 much more recently, after Alien Covenant, but perhaps only years or even months before the Nostromo was rerouted there. Given the fact that Alien: Covenant takes place only 19 years before Alien, it is possible we will see the derelict ship crash on the planet in a future film.
If we assume this to be the case, then David may have created the first Xenomorph, but it should also be noted that David's version differs somewhat from the classic Alien Xenomorph in a few places. First, when it hatches, it seems to be covered in some kind of amniotic sac, and it is already fully formed, with an elongated head and limbs. This is in contrast to the classic chestburster, which was much more snake-like and did not have limbs. As David explains, the black mutagen from Prometheus can exist in many forms: as a liquid and even in an airborn gaseous form. Different forms of the mutagen combined with different lifeforms can produce wholly different results. So far, we have seen the mutagen decimating everything in its gaseous form; it can mutate a corpse in liquid form, create snake-like creatures from worms, giant squid-like facehugger embryos inside humans, and so on. In Alien: Covenant, its airborne form can create Neomorphs directly inside a living host, completely bypassing any egg or facehugger stage. So, David's Xenomorph may have been created by a process almost, but not quite, similar to the one that would later produce the Xenomorph from Alien, but he could indeed have been the first to create a Xenomorph.
The other theory assumes that the Engineer aboard the derelict ship is fossilized, or at the very least "dead a long time", and had crashed there considerably longer than 19 years before. Some assume that it was one of the Engineer ships that left LV-223 (the planet seen in Prometheus) during the outbreak of the black substance hundreds of years before (as witnessed by the Prometheus crew in a hologram). Assuming that the ship is very old, then the Xenomorphs aboard had probably been created before David even existed, and the Engineers would be their most logical creators. They may have discovered the Xenomorph the same way David did: by experimenting with the mutagen, and combining it with insects as well as several other species from their homeworld. It is even hinted that David may have used some parts from Elizabeth Shaw's body (which seems to be lacking several abdominal organs), possibly for use in creating the Xenomorph eggs (which may explain the subtle differences in appearance between his Xenomorph and the one from Alien). David may have had many trial and error attempts to get it to that stage, but if this theory is correct, he basically recreated a process that had been mastered years or even centuries before.
All of this is speculation, as no film in the series has (yet) given exclusive evidence, but it's possible and even likely that it will be explained in the next sequel.'
Source: imdb / Alien Covenant
this topic has been talked about n talked about n seems to be the most divisive aspect of the prequel series and no wonder. the derelict IS the beginning of the franchise. its where alien beings come into contact with humanity and starts its well known chain reaction of events. its such an important if not THE most important scene in the franchise. I can only speak for myself but imagining it to be thousands of years old gives the whole scene and thus the franchise its true mystery and wonder of the possibilities beyond our own little corner of the universe. having the derelict be thousands of years old, which I believe even during the filming of Prometheus, was the initial idea, gives so many paths and possibilities to show onscreen. I for one like the idea that the derelict was part of a fleet that attacked the facility on lv223 but something went wrong maybe due to sabotage. the signal is a warning to keep other engineer vessels away which they do but the attack on the facility goes ahead as we see the aftermath in Prometheus. now for David to be responsible restricts what can be done. we don't get flashbacks of a possible engineer civil war or a possible uprising against a higher power. iv said it before n iv made up my mind. if they do go down the route I think theyr going and David is responsible, then ill stick with alien through to prometheus and the others don't exist. I just believe the original deserves more and so do us fans. we sat through AVP and AVPR so they owe us something
Totally Agree about the Space Jockey Scene.
When looking at all the clues up to Prometheus, i was left pondering if the Space Jockey event is teased as being another Engineer ship on LV-223 after the Outbreak thats gone into Shut Down like the Juggernaught and Last Engineer's ship... his 3 other crew mates were not so lucky, they clearly appeared to suffer a Chest Buster.
So i felt Prometheus could be teasing that another ship had suffered the same fate as those Engineers in those Cry-Pods only the Space Jockey awoken a few hundred years after and not thousands of years latter (like the Engineer in Prometheus) so the Space Jockey also set off too but he was infected and Chest Busted as he barely got off LV-223.
I felt the Hammerpedes could be the Prime Candidate for what ever lead to the Xenomorph in Alien at this time too.
There are however a few inconsistencies... as far as direct LV-223 Engineer connection, but these could be now just oversights.
1) Engineer/Space Jockey Size difference
2) Derelict/Juggernaught Aesthetic differences including the Lay-Out of the Pilot Chamber.
3) The Fossilized Look of the Space Jockey.
Now the last one we know cant be a Fossil, but the color of it and appearance it looks degraded, yet the Engineer Bodys in Prometheus had been there for thousands of years and yet looked similar color and texture to the GOOD AS NEW Space Jockey Suits.
So a Logical way to explain these differences, has to be a slightly different Engineer Race/Suit and Ship and maybe revealing it to had been there for many thousands of years.
Even if David created it, as i mentioned in my previous posts there are ways around this, so that David has some input but plays either the Middle Man, or he merely Evolves/Re-Engineers the Ancient Xenomorph.
Both leaving the Final Impression on the Xenomorph as being at the hands of the Engineers or preferably another related but taller Race.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"All of this is speculation, as no film in the series has (yet) given exclusive evidence, but it's possible and even likely that it will be explained in the next sequel."
I have to agree ATI while clues seem to hint to David the Creator there is nothing 100% concrete that dismisses the possibility of this NOT being the case. Even though this appears to be Ridley Scotts chosen direction.
At the moment they could indeed CHANGE it so that David merely Re-Engineered his own version of the Xenomorph, taking this route would not really contradict Alien Covenant at all.
By keeping it as David, then i guess some work has to be done to try and explain some of the differences, but these could just have to be accepted as Oversights...
It appeared that Ridley Scott had intended at least TWO movies before we get any clear clue or answers to the Space Jockey/Derelict Involvement, so all things considered it would appear the sequel would not really cover the Space Jockey Event but the next movie after that likely would have.
I will Speculate that IF/WHEN Disney pick up the Franchise and attempt to do a continuation from Alien Covenant, i feel they may rather have a SINGLE movie that will give us the LINK/ANSWERS to Alien, thus its likely to be a movie that By-Passes Ridley Scotts planned Alien Covenant Sequel... Especially if David is still kept as the Architect of the Xenomorph
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Guys, I think we better see some Engineers in the next installment, and I mean some Xeno-Suited Engineers!!
I'm afraid I fall into the not happy with David as creator camp. It's just so underwhelming, so unsatisfactory. That he re-engineered the Morb, I can accept.
Then again, Ridley's whole idea was that We Are The Gods Now. Those beings, those Engineers, are not Gods, not even a superior race?
Yet, David being the sole creator doesn't ring true. The Deacon, as shown in Prometheus, was an early variant of the Morb. We witnessed it's birth, albeit through David's meddling. But the LV-223 Engineers were already aware of it, and appeared to have a shrine for the purpose of it's worship around 2,000 years before David darkened LV-223's surface. It was hinted that the Hologram Engineers were running from something which sounded very Deacon-like.
So yes, David created the Neomorphs and an early non biomechanical Morb. At the very least, the Engineers had prior knowledge of the Deacon, even if they were not it's creators.
I would tie-in the Derelict and it's pilot, with the LV-223 outbreak. Perhaps there were other ships containing eggs, or the urns disintegrated over time and the contents became eggs? We've discussed that before.
Of course, what was set up in Prometheus was largely ignored in ALIEN: Covenant, so I guess what I am talking about is now irrelevant! :)
"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger
It certainly is something that i feel has displeased most fans (David Creator) but it fits perfectly with the kind of Philosophy that Prometheus had started. Creation, Rebellion. Sub-Creation and Punishment.
It fits with a Tale of Hubris, with a message that Playing God and Creating Life, could be a Mistake in Hindsight, due to Creation not pleasing the Creator or performing/behaving in ways intended and seeing the Creation become displeased with its creator and rebel and then wish to pursue its own Sub-Creation.. Then REPEAT
As interesting on ONE Hand that may seem, we have the OTHER Hand which was the Engineers are responsible which Prometheus seemed to hint at... but NEITHER of these seem to be as Enigmatic, Mysterious and Alien as the Space Jockey/Derelict.
The Space Jockey Scene is still more Awe-Inspiring than the Suited Engineers, while we have a size difference 13-15ft vs now 7-8ft Engineers, Aesthetically the Juggernaught was just not as HR Giger Bio-Mechanical as the Derelict... it was LESS Organic.
Maybe these could be addressed by introducing another Race/Faction but it could now have to be just a Oversight.
I will add that EVEN IF they stick to the Path that without Davids input there would be NO Xenomorph in Alien, thus David is the Creator of the Protomorph at least.
Prometheus/Alien Covenant still show us the Engineers had encountered/Re-Engineered or maybe Created something similar to the Deacon/Xenomorph many THOUSANDS of Years ago.
So even if we have to Accept David as the Creator, then we have to remember the Xenomorph is really only ONE Variant of the Morb and the Engineers have had dealings and no doubt there had many many other versions in the Distant Past. And also this means many more versions for the Future.
We still have the Mystery of the Mural and Frescos from Promethues, this may now just be our NEW Space Jockey Equivalent Mystery.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
to me the mural and frescos from Prometheus aren't on the same level of as the derelict scene. I accept its most likely due to nostalgia but its what the derelict represents. totally alien life out there existing for millions of years and wev stumbled into the middle of something we don't understand nor can we comprehend it. the murals, to me, show that the engineer species has integrated this other species into its life cycle and it is not seen as a threat but more a saviour, something to be worshipped as it may, as some have theorised, have become the only method of reproduction for the engineer race or they see it as a transformation into a more perfect being. the derelict scene offers so much more broad scope on alien existence imo. we could have seen endless possibilities of flashbacks on how it got there limited only by imagination (and obviously funding) but its gna be brought down to 'a synthetic Attila the Hun' did it and its not that alien???????? for me its a cop out. its robbed me of the amazing things we could have seen especially when in Prometheus its clear the train of thought was the derelict and the events on the lv223 facility are connected. its only my opinion but I feel its a valid one and one shared by many.
Hopefully they will get another race to be the SJ, that could save the issue about scale if they make the SJ bigger. It depends on how big they think that the issue is.
It is alright if David made his own version of the Xeno but it would be ridiculous if he did the original monster. Screw that if that is what they decide (David as the creator), to me it would make the prequels the biggest failure of the alien movies if you look at what kind of conclusion that they come up with. To me I would probably just sigh and throw even Prometheus away, I mean Covenant is bad enough as it is. Unfortunately I am also worried that the next one will be crap and I am not too confident that Scott will make a good movie since he wants to focus a lot on David, which is not my interest at all.
Nope, I can not get interested in the themes if I do not care about the story or the characters.
Hints of an older third race are present across the franchise. I believe even Mr. *cough* "I don't give a shit!" *achoo* said something along those lines.
Recently I thought "What if the Engineers are younger than humans?". Maybe im forgetting something but what hints are there in regards of their age as a species apart from Shaw's and Holloway's assumptions. Im sure im missing something. XD ...and embarrass myself again.
Regardless, assuming that mankind is, at least, around for roughly 300k years (wich is a fact btw.) perhaps the third race took some early humans to modify them. That could make the Planet 4 inhabitants an intermediate step. Like this: Human-»Planet 4-»Engineer wich would explain the obvious differences between the P4-Inhabitants and the Engineers.
Even if this process took 10k yrs 290k is still enough time to trow some shit at the fan.
Of course there's the sacrificial scene in Prom. But as far as im aware it is nowhere stated when it happened and where. I think even Scott himself stated that it not necessarily has to be earth.
Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.
Can you give me such hints? Only thing which I recall that could qualify is that weird creature with 6 xeno-type fingers that the Engineers are depicted in the murals in Prom. to have tamed (but maybe that is symbolic, and the engineers might have split from the Xeno-thing inside them, hence a connection to the Dark Chrystal as BigDave suggested). And there is Shaw's question of who created them? But maybe nobody.
And where are other artifacts scattered in the movies? I don't recall any, only mid 20's century British factories.
What RS commented about the Prom prologue, I take to mean that the Engineers were doing insemination for eons and on many places, even Earth, so therefore they could not be young. And maybe what we see in Covenant, is there version of a (i've learned my lesson is without the n) Utopia (Paradise), similar to Aldous Huxley's The Island.
But the character which represented our want to know is dead, so probably will never know this. (wasn't all this called by the movie makers as boring, and David the cool thing?)
That's the beauty of alien films by Ridley Scott, everything seems plausible and we can talk endlessly about them.
In a 2016 tweet Ridley Scott induced the idea of all humans being replicants. Failed replicants searching for their makers, wanting to live forever. Becoming a threat to the makers. There's no wonder the engineers wanted to destroy our home planet.
I don't believe in this case that engineers are younger than humans, but they indeed created the humans.
But why in all those antiquity representations it was LV223 indicated, it was how they found it, isn't it? Why would the engineers want to tell us about LV223. What was this planet to them? Why should be important to the ancient hominids? Was the human race firstly made there? Was that the engineers' initial home world they had to subsequently abandon after the black goo incident? Was planet 4 chosen as their new home and its seeding was shown at the beginning of Prometheus?
It seems to me that Ridley Scott wanted to tell us a greater story but, following the fanboys complaints, the xenomorph hijacked it.
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
ignorantGuy, the hints are mainly in the recent books, namely Alien: Out Of The Shadows and Alien: Sea Of Sorrow.
There are also hints in The Rage War Trilogy. The third race even has a name there Drukathi. But TRWT is a bit tricky because it has Yautja in it. A lot of ppl dislike the idea of Predators being in the Alienverse, personally i don't mind. As long as it is done well. Btw, the aforementioned books are all written under Fox's supervision.
It now depends on what one is willing to consider "canon" because the canon itself is highly debated at times.
"...Ridley Scott induced the idea of all humans being replicants..." that's a new one for me. On the other hand i usually ignore Ridley-rambles, he changes his mind faster then my neighbor her panties. ;) I rather stick to what is in the movies, books and/or games.
As for LV-223, that place is clearly a "lab" of sorts, to me. Sticking to my idea i could imagine the Engineers being created there. The Alienverse is brimming with megalomaniacs. Maybe the Engineers came to earth after they were created and were like "Behold, we come from the stars *eagerly pointing at the constellation* and created you *wink wink* therefor we are your gods.". Perhaps they were even ordered to do so as caretakers. Or they did it after overthrowing their masters and obtaining their tech. Since words like rebellion and civil war popped up every now and then. Wich would be similar to the Founders before they became the Rage in the Rage War.
"It's an invitation!" is, again, an assumption by Shaw/Holloway. Judging the Engineers reaction in Prom it unlikely was one.
But all of this is speculation based on what ive seen, read and played so far.
Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.
I dont know how to Reply to some of this ;) This could get very lengthy ;)
"Hints of an older third race are present across the franchise. I believe even Mr. *cough* "I don't give a shit!" *achoo* said something along those lines."
I think at the basis, which started with Alien Engineers, a lot of things get changed as they go along... its hard to keep up with the many U-Turns...
Going to that comment, i think we can look at RS comments after Prometheus, he had refereed to the Engineers as Fallen Angels which logically has to conclude...
*They are Fallen Angels because well Demons are Evil SOB's so Engineers are Malevolent beings too, hence reference.
*The Engineers are a Sub-Order of Hierarchy or even a lesser being created by another who then Rebelled against their Creators/Hierarchy as far as the Agenda and Ambitions of their Creators/Hierarchy. This fits well in continuation to how Mankind had behaved towards the Engineers and Seeds of how David now is with Mankind and thus i feel this is the reasons for the Fallen Angel Comment.
RS mentioned after Prometheus that he DID-NOT want to meet God in the First movie, regarding the Removal of the Elders Scene. This means that
*Engineers are not Gods, they serve a higher power/race and purpose.
*The Elders are maybe the Hierarchy/Gods or RS intends to replace the Elders with something more Godlike.
Ridley Scott also mentioned that Dr Shaw and David will be going to the Planet of the Engineers were they will meet/find these beings, who ARE-NOT Gods, not in the traditional sense and these beings are far from Benevolent.
*This would indicate we would meet a Race/Beings who are above the Engineers, but who are also not Benevolent. The Question is in what regards? In general, or just as we would perseve based on our Role.. So would Humans be considered Evil, because we Slaughter Animals for Food? To the Animals its not a Benevolent Act, but to us its a requirement for our Survival.
So it is interesting to see what was planned... even prior a few months to Alien Covenant, RS had mentioned that.
*If the Engineers are the Forerunners to Mankind, then what makes it possible for the Engineers to be able to do what they do as in Seed Worlds... so he was talking about what makes Worlds Suitable to be used to create Life... he then asks... so where is the BIG GUY he then continued to mention was the Big Bang a Accident? and that Stephen Hawkings seemed to think NOT
This is kind of hinting to us that there is more above and beyond the Engineers, that there is some reason for why Worlds Exist or at the very least how some Worlds are able to support Life (Terraforming) and so it paints a picture that there was/is some other LEVEL of the Hierarchy above the Engineers, and the Engineers creation could be merely to Seed Worlds.
I will come back after to tackle a few more comments recently that are very interesting on this thread...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"hence a connection to the Dark Chrystal as BigDave suggested"
This is just what the Source i had from February 2015 had claimed, that the Prometheus Sequels would be a bit Matrix and Blade Runner but also ripped off a lot of the Dark Crystal Plot... but this can-not be confirmed until we see a number of Paglen/Green Drafts, especially the Final Draft before Green came in, and the Final Draft by Green. Until then it cant be taken as more than rumor... even though a lot of what was said adds up... especially as far as many unused ideas and concepts that have cropped up.
My way of looking at the Franchise... is always to consider first the Main Ancient Element... CREATION while RS mentioned a lot that the Engineers are Fallen Angels.... the other thing he mentioned and sticks to more so even to TODAY is the Engineers are Genetic Gardeners of Space.
Which is where i then base my theories off... rather than Aggressive Giants who created us for no reason, or as hosts to the Xenomorphs, who then either wanted us killed by Xenomorph's or created the Black Goo to turn us into Xenomorphs...
When going back to the BASICS the First ACT of Prometheus and Alien Engineers, it comes down to Creation, Evolution, Teaching of Technology.... before something event changed everything.
I think LV-223 is merely a Watch Post, a Nursery/Greenhouse where the Engineers Evolve and Experiment with their Creations and then Seed/Send down their desired Results back to Earth and other Worlds... before SOMETHING happened.
The Star Maps are in essence saying "this is where YOU was created from"
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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