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Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel

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The Seven Archangels or Twelve Deciples

The Seven Archangels or Twelve Deciples

BigDave

Member

323

Posted Jan-12-2018 8:01 AM

I thought i would raise the Engineers Hierarchy in relation to the Franchise.  Prometheus had shown us the Engineers but the Elders Scene was removed, the reasons for this Ridley Scott Claimed "he did not want to meet GOD, in the first movie"

He mentioned regarding the Sequel that David and Dr Shaw would meet these beings, on Paradise but they are NOT Gods in the Traditional Sense.

The other thing he alluded to a lot at the time of Prometheus was that the Engineers were FALLEN Angels.

I however now wish to by-pass this and look at Planet 4 where Ridley Scott calls these Engineers the ORIGINAL Engineers, (so our LV-223 are not Original?) But i wish to take this further and this Topic to open with the HALL OF HEADS

Ridley Scott said the Hall of Heads were the Wise Men (maybe the Oldest of their kind) they were the Apostles (advocates of the Ritual/Religion) and Superior Beings (Superior to who).

The Hall of Heads was also referred to as the Hierarchy 

In Alien Covenant we only get to see SIX Heads, due to the Angle of the Camera Perhaps? The Concept art for the Hall of Heads Reveals however TWO lots of THREE Heads and then a SINGLE Head

We never get the whole view of the Room, but looking at the Room and lay out it could be that we have up to TWELVE Heads for 12 Disciples?  Even though the Concept Art appears to show SEVEN heads for maybe the SEVEN Angels of Heaven (those mainly mentioned).

The Elders Scene in Prometheus has SEVEN Elders. And so for Ridley Scott to refer to the Engineers as FALLEN Angels, is here referring to those on LV-223 alone?

I think the whole idea behind those Elders, those Founders those Hall of Heads is something interesting to explore...  Could they be the 12 Disciples of the Engineers Agenda?  or the Seven Heavenly Archangels?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

18 Responses to The Seven Archangels or Twelve Deciples

Ingeniero

Jan-12-2018 8:28 AM

I believe Ridley Scott made it perfectly clear that elements of the Watchers biblical history were inspiration for the Engineers. That part of the story sure romanced me. Paradise Lost elements seen across Alien: Covenant (not to mention it's previously held title of Alien: Paradise Lost) are very clear and Scott himself continues to reference the poem's concepts.

This theme transcends Alien: Covenant (below) into Prometheus (Dr. Shaw's notes) and Alien with the speculation that LV-223 and LV-426 are related to Bible verses in Leviticus. Well covered here but certainly related to the overall topic above.

I do believe the Hall of Heads holds a religious significance to the Engineers and David has smeared filth across the holy of holies in the Engineer temple. Planet 4/Paradise may not have been the Engineer "Vatican City" but it sure looked close to it. And someone is going to be upset about the change to it brought on by David and his works.

 

 

Dark Nebula

Jan-12-2018 8:50 AM

Interesting topic.

Ridley did say that those 6 head statues represent six elders of the entire civilization: Artists, intellects, wise men. Since those stone heads were also referred to the hierarchy, I also noticed some head statues were depicted as younger Engineers while some were depicted as much older Engineers.

Some of those head statues appeared in David's lab, which was hard to see.

Could it be that each head statue in the hall of heads represents a class of Engineers?

 

"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.

Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."

- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"

Ati

Jan-12-2018 9:34 AM

BigDave - And we shouldn't forget the two huge heads carved in the rock face seen at the end of Alien Covenant. If you remember our discussion some months ago, you discovered that they look like the Engineers in the opening scene of Prometheus.

V I N E T I C U M

Jan-13-2018 10:41 AM

very interesting , i die from the curiosity to know the Engineers *.*

"Au Revoir Shoshanna"

sherris

Jan-13-2018 1:40 PM

This interests me on many levels however more so for the fact that when you look at the hall of heads, we see all elders on display. No Engineered versions like Engineers 223. There faves all look worn.

Anyone wonder about the patterns ? Plus some almost barbed-wire on there. Whats that  birth, torture, ritual. i would love to take a guess.

So i guess the faction of Engineers who were Enhance do not end up in the same room as the more traditional Engineers.

Maybe there is a reason for that. To speculate it could mean they are not worthy, a mere creation made purely to seed and nothing more.  Suits bonded to body until a planet is ready and the Enhancement suits are removed to leave a body it A1 shape. Pure Power, super clever (not too clever mind especially if they are creations)

 

 

Just a thought !!

Getting a soul and wanting more-  may not of been in the cattle plan.

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

BigDave

Jan-14-2018 3:22 PM

I think it is interesting to wonder the thought process behind the 7 Elders in Prometheus, i know we should not look at it TOO Literal, but a number of Mythos/Religions have 7 Gods of Creation or in some 7 of a certain layer/hierarchy (like the Sumerian gods) , but also some have 12 like the Olympians and Titans each with 12.   Commonly Biblical Connected txts etc do link to 7 Arc Angels but also 11 Fallen Angels plus Lucifer.

@Dark Nebula

I have looked at the Hall of Head Scenes from a few shots and after watching it, it appears we see 6 Engineers, but then every shot seems to come from a POV of a area where there is a GAP i dont recall ever seeing anything from this Area its always shots from the POV of this area.

This is obviously a SET and the POV area is obviously where the Cameras are Set, and so just as the Juggernaught Set has only 3 Sides and not 4, due to one side being the POV... I wonder if the Hall of Heads SET is intended to have 6 Head Sculptures or if there is a 7th which there can be only room for ONE MORE and so is there a Gap in the Hall of Heads or does the Hall of Heads have Heads Surrounding the WHOLE Circular layout and thus another 7th  Head that we dont see because the Scenes are shot from the POV of this head?

If there is supposed to be 7 Heads, which would all fit around the room in a circular set up with the same amount of spacing between, then this matches the 7 Elders in Prometheus and how we have 7 Archangels and in some Cultures 7 Gods.... and if so is this Coincidence? or was their some thinking behind this number?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-14-2018 3:35 PM

@ATI

Indeed there are some Large ones Carved into the Mountains i wonder how many there are in Total? i think we only see TWO in the Movie. This does not mean there are not more.

@sherris

Indeed, the Big Head in Prometheus also had similar markings, some Ancient Cultures in Particular in Africa take part in Scarification where they scratch or burn their skin to leave markings.  A lot of time its to Mark out a Right of Passage or some other Significant/important Milestone for the Culture/Tribe. Sometimes they can differ in markings to indicate  Rank/Order and sometimes to Mark them as being part of a Certain Tribe.

Tribal Tattoos also are used for similar reasons by other Ancient Tribal People.

So we can assume the Statues with these are to Mark out some Specific Role/Hierarchy of those beings or a Mark of a Right of Passage, a Symbol of being the Wise, the Apostles and Superior.   Maybe they could be combined with the Engineer Cuneiform Markings to not the individual Engineers Name?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Dark Nebula

Jan-14-2018 3:48 PM

Some info regarding the hall of heads, from March 2017.

The Hall of Heads is designed to be a somewhat ambiguous but sacred place for the Engineers. “We wanted to make it monumental. That did have some backstory of worship or a place of where the elders were or whatever so there was some gravity there,” said Seagers. It’s where the information was stored, and the heads were representing the history and the past.”

 

The Hall of Heads has a constant rain of showers from a hole in the ceiling that’s meant to evoke Harry Dean Stanton’s death scene in Alien.

http://collider.com/alien-covenant-spoilers-things-to-know/#cast-and-characters

"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.

Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."

- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"

BigDave

Jan-14-2018 5:00 PM

Certainly is a place of Significance, some people on set described the Large Stone Table as some kind of Sacrificial Ritual like look to it and even said there was a like Sacrificial Blade.

The concepts show that the center could open up to reveal a PIT of Fire. But as we dont get this in the movie its a case of is this Canon?  We simply cant be sure, but the Floor does have circular patterns and we can wonder do they open up?

The Interesting thing is this Room appears to be located down some stairs and is TINY compared to the Sheer Size of the Cathedral Building, the linking passage ways to the Hall of Heads are a series of Catacombs and like roughly carved out Tunnels.

It could be that there was a Ancient Underground Ritual Place, located maybe inside some Cave/Mound and maybe the Cathedral Temple was built around this Ancient Ritual Place, much like the Dome of the Rock Mosque is. (Built on the Mound/Ground where Mohamed Ascended to Heaven)

Its certainly a Central Place of Importance to the Engineers Culture/Rituals

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-15-2018 8:05 AM

The hall of heads was kind of interesting from an aesthetic point of view. I wonder what the history behind those heads is? Very likely it is about religion in some way.

They remind me of the heads on Easter Island by the way. Coincidence? Maybe

BigDave

Jan-15-2018 8:58 AM

It certainly is about something very tied into the Engineers Very Ancient History, these beings are no doubt very significant to their entire culture which appears to be very Ancient and Very Ritualistic where the importance of Sacrifice seems to be key.

We have to wonder/question if those Head Statues are the Ancient Ancestry of the Engineers who come from that Planet?  Or did those Founders come from another place?  Its implied this place is the Engineer Home-world, but then could it be the only place?  could it be only just the FIRST

We can speculate in 500 years, 1000 years, 5000 years we could be among the Stars, and Mankind could settle down and Colonize many Worlds... But EARTH would be our Origin but by no means the only Place we find Human Civilization once we master the Stars as we see late in the Aliens Franchise, or like in Star Trek etc.

IF this Planet is the Origin of the Engineers, the Question is this those Head Statues place of Origin too? If it is then we surely see the Engineers have left this place to go to other worlds, and Earth is likely not the ONLY place they have visited and interacted with over History.    If those Wise Beings in the Hall of Heads are NOT from Planet 4, this does not mean the Engineers in Prometheus are not from Planet 4, they could have came from there regardless.

There has to be Reason/Purpose why those Engineers leave Planet 4 and Arrive back, and then we have to ask if there is another RACE/Being above those Engineers, who created them, or had interacted with them and USE them for some Purpose...   Is there a Hierarchy above them, or was their and did those Engineers eventually Learn to Use/Steal another Races Technology to then Explore the Galaxy?

This is the HUGE Scope that Prometheus set up, were we can clearly see the Xenomorph is put a part of this, who large a part who knows... it could be they are just as relevant as Mankind Viruses to use in Biological Warfare, or Mankinds Discovery and Evolution of Black Powder Weapons that leads us to our Primary Weapon of Defense in the Military.

It sadly appeared while Prometheus opened up the Door to this HUGE Scope, Alien Covenant appears to have began to shut the door on this.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-15-2018 9:03 AM

I find it interesting the significance of the 7 Elders in Prometheus and what could be 7 Head Statues in the Hall of Heads, many Ancient Mythos seem to be around 12, 7 and 8 Divine higher beings.

Sumerian Mythos we have the 7 Higher Gods of Creation, Norse there are 8 and Biblical there are 7 Archangels but its key to remember before HIS Fall Lucifer would have made that 8 of Gods Higher Angel Order.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

jdvyne

Jan-15-2018 11:47 AM

There are obviously 7 Heads in the room.

I speculated a few months ago if some of the stonefaces we see on Planet 4 resemble some Engineers we see in Prometheus.

For example the middle head looks similar to the big stone head we saw in the dome in Prometheus.

[img]http://www.alien-covenant.com/aliencovenant_uploads/heads_close_up.png[/img]

sherris

Jan-15-2018 3:32 PM

BigDave - After reading your input around scarification and the fact we see evidence of this in Prometheus and the hall of heads, coupled with the fact that the sacrificial Engineer showed no evidence of this. 

Then I am thinking that there are either seperate groups closely related AND the seeding of Planets does not get scarification and that this process is a reward for something entirely different.

Kings, Warriors, Healers, Industrialists, scientists even a royal family receive these rewards and marks of respect for other areas. Meaning, potentially there is a lot more to the Engineer mythos than we can hope to speculate ?

Any thoughts on that? OFF TOPIC SORRY i know but i am on board with your OT. There is a connection and i think it will be more than we hoped if we ever get THAT film

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

BigDave

Jan-15-2018 5:05 PM

No worries i think its indeed relative to the Topic, it appears the Engineers may not Scar themselves in Person, but that Statues and Monuments made to honor them could have markings with similar meanings to why Ancient Cultures on Earth do similar things to themselves.

The Head Statues in Alien Covenant seem to lack as many lines and markings as the one in Prometheus however.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Dark Nebula

Mar-18-2018 8:01 PM

Looks like there are 7 stone heads after all

Source:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BVr-wQWlPEA/?taken-by=matthatt0n

"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.

Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."

- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"

Dark Nebula

Mar-20-2018 2:00 AM

I think the hall of heads might also be a council, a political importance, not just religious.

I was watching Star trek nemesis one day, and when I saw the Romulan council the first thing that came to my mind was the hall of heads from AC, especially the floor.

The hall of heads is very ancient and old.

"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.

Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."

- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"

daliens

Mar-20-2018 2:48 AM

Abu Simbel, Egypt 

7 is considered a sacred number, even the God's number.

7 Wonders of the World

7 capital sins and the 7 catholic Sacraments

7 days resulting in the Creation of the World mentioned in the Bible

7 chakras in Hinduism

7 days of the week

7 colors of the rainbow.

Etc.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

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