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The Seven Archangels or Twelve Deciples

The Seven Archangels or Twelve Deciples

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BigDave

Jan-12-2018 8:01 AM

I thought i would raise the Engineers Hierarchy in relation to the Franchise.  Prometheus had shown us the Engineers but the Elders Scene was removed, the reasons for this Ridley Scott Claimed "he did not want to meet GOD, in the first movie"

He mentioned regarding the Sequel that David and Dr Shaw would meet these beings, on Paradise but they are NOT Gods in the Traditional Sense.

The other thing he alluded to a lot at the time of Prometheus was that the Engineers were FALLEN Angels.

I however now wish to by-pass this and look at Planet 4 where Ridley Scott calls these Engineers the ORIGINAL Engineers, (so our LV-223 are not Original?) But i wish to take this further and this Topic to open with the HALL OF HEADS

Ridley Scott said the Hall of Heads were the Wise Men (maybe the Oldest of their kind) they were the Apostles (advocates of the Ritual/Religion) and Superior Beings (Superior to who).

The Hall of Heads was also referred to as the Hierarchy 

In Alien Covenant we only get to see SIX Heads, due to the Angle of the Camera Perhaps? The Concept art for the Hall of Heads Reveals however TWO lots of THREE Heads and then a SINGLE Head

We never get the whole view of the Room, but looking at the Room and lay out it could be that we have up to TWELVE Heads for 12 Disciples?  Even though the Concept Art appears to show SEVEN heads for maybe the SEVEN Angels of Heaven (those mainly mentioned).

The Elders Scene in Prometheus has SEVEN Elders. And so for Ridley Scott to refer to the Engineers as FALLEN Angels, is here referring to those on LV-223 alone?

I think the whole idea behind those Elders, those Founders those Hall of Heads is something interesting to explore...  Could they be the 12 Disciples of the Engineers Agenda?  or the Seven Heavenly Archangels?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

21 Responses to The Seven Archangels or Twelve Deciples

Ingeniero

Jan-12-2018 8:28 AM

I believe Ridley Scott made it perfectly clear that elements of the Watchers biblical history were inspiration for the Engineers. That part of the story sure romanced me. Paradise Lost elements seen across Alien: Covenant (not to mention it's previously held title of Alien: Paradise Lost) are very clear and Scott himself continues to reference the poem's concepts.

This theme transcends Alien: Covenant (below) into Prometheus (Dr. Shaw's notes) and Alien with the speculation that LV-223 and LV-426 are related to Bible verses in Leviticus. Well covered here but certainly related to the overall topic above.

I do believe the Hall of Heads holds a religious significance to the Engineers and David has smeared filth across the holy of holies in the Engineer temple. Planet 4/Paradise may not have been the Engineer "Vatican City" but it sure looked close to it. And someone is going to be upset about the change to it brought on by David and his works.

 

 

Dark Nebula

Jan-12-2018 8:50 AM

Interesting topic.

Ridley did say that those 6 head statues represent six elders of the entire civilization: Artists, intellects, wise men. Since those stone heads were also referred to the hierarchy, I also noticed some head statues were depicted as younger Engineers while some were depicted as much older Engineers.

Some of those head statues appeared in David's lab, which was hard to see.

Could it be that each head statue in the hall of heads represents a class of Engineers?

 

"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.

Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."

- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"

Ati

Jan-12-2018 9:34 AM

BigDave - And we shouldn't forget the two huge heads carved in the rock face seen at the end of Alien Covenant. If you remember our discussion some months ago, you discovered that they look like the Engineers in the opening scene of Prometheus.

V I N E T I C U M

Jan-13-2018 10:41 AM

very interesting , i die from the curiosity to know the Engineers *.*

"Au Revoir Shoshanna"

sherris

Jan-13-2018 1:40 PM

This interests me on many levels however more so for the fact that when you look at the hall of heads, we see all elders on display. No Engineered versions like Engineers 223. There faves all look worn.

Anyone wonder about the patterns ? Plus some almost barbed-wire on there. Whats that  birth, torture, ritual. i would love to take a guess.

So i guess the faction of Engineers who were Enhance do not end up in the same room as the more traditional Engineers.

Maybe there is a reason for that. To speculate it could mean they are not worthy, a mere creation made purely to seed and nothing more.  Suits bonded to body until a planet is ready and the Enhancement suits are removed to leave a body it A1 shape. Pure Power, super clever (not too clever mind especially if they are creations)

 

 

Just a thought !!

Getting a soul and wanting more-  may not of been in the cattle plan.

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

BigDave

Jan-14-2018 3:22 PM

I think it is interesting to wonder the thought process behind the 7 Elders in Prometheus, i know we should not look at it TOO Literal, but a number of Mythos/Religions have 7 Gods of Creation or in some 7 of a certain layer/hierarchy (like the Sumerian gods) , but also some have 12 like the Olympians and Titans each with 12.   Commonly Biblical Connected txts etc do link to 7 Arc Angels but also 11 Fallen Angels plus Lucifer.

@Dark Nebula

I have looked at the Hall of Head Scenes from a few shots and after watching it, it appears we see 6 Engineers, but then every shot seems to come from a POV of a area where there is a GAP i dont recall ever seeing anything from this Area its always shots from the POV of this area.

This is obviously a SET and the POV area is obviously where the Cameras are Set, and so just as the Juggernaught Set has only 3 Sides and not 4, due to one side being the POV... I wonder if the Hall of Heads SET is intended to have 6 Head Sculptures or if there is a 7th which there can be only room for ONE MORE and so is there a Gap in the Hall of Heads or does the Hall of Heads have Heads Surrounding the WHOLE Circular layout and thus another 7th  Head that we dont see because the Scenes are shot from the POV of this head?

If there is supposed to be 7 Heads, which would all fit around the room in a circular set up with the same amount of spacing between, then this matches the 7 Elders in Prometheus and how we have 7 Archangels and in some Cultures 7 Gods.... and if so is this Coincidence? or was their some thinking behind this number?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-14-2018 3:35 PM

@ATI

Indeed there are some Large ones Carved into the Mountains i wonder how many there are in Total? i think we only see TWO in the Movie. This does not mean there are not more.

@sherris

Indeed, the Big Head in Prometheus also had similar markings, some Ancient Cultures in Particular in Africa take part in Scarification where they scratch or burn their skin to leave markings.  A lot of time its to Mark out a Right of Passage or some other Significant/important Milestone for the Culture/Tribe. Sometimes they can differ in markings to indicate  Rank/Order and sometimes to Mark them as being part of a Certain Tribe.

Tribal Tattoos also are used for similar reasons by other Ancient Tribal People.

So we can assume the Statues with these are to Mark out some Specific Role/Hierarchy of those beings or a Mark of a Right of Passage, a Symbol of being the Wise, the Apostles and Superior.   Maybe they could be combined with the Engineer Cuneiform Markings to not the individual Engineers Name?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Dark Nebula

Jan-14-2018 3:48 PM

Some info regarding the hall of heads, from March 2017.

The Hall of Heads is designed to be a somewhat ambiguous but sacred place for the Engineers. “We wanted to make it monumental. That did have some backstory of worship or a place of where the elders were or whatever so there was some gravity there,” said Seagers. It’s where the information was stored, and the heads were representing the history and the past.”

 

The Hall of Heads has a constant rain of showers from a hole in the ceiling that’s meant to evoke Harry Dean Stanton’s death scene in Alien.

http://collider.com/alien-covenant-spoilers-things-to-know/#cast-and-characters

"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.

Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."

- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"

BigDave

Jan-14-2018 5:00 PM

Certainly is a place of Significance, some people on set described the Large Stone Table as some kind of Sacrificial Ritual like look to it and even said there was a like Sacrificial Blade.

The concepts show that the center could open up to reveal a PIT of Fire. But as we dont get this in the movie its a case of is this Canon?  We simply cant be sure, but the Floor does have circular patterns and we can wonder do they open up?

The Interesting thing is this Room appears to be located down some stairs and is TINY compared to the Sheer Size of the Cathedral Building, the linking passage ways to the Hall of Heads are a series of Catacombs and like roughly carved out Tunnels.

It could be that there was a Ancient Underground Ritual Place, located maybe inside some Cave/Mound and maybe the Cathedral Temple was built around this Ancient Ritual Place, much like the Dome of the Rock Mosque is. (Built on the Mound/Ground where Mohamed Ascended to Heaven)

Its certainly a Central Place of Importance to the Engineers Culture/Rituals

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-15-2018 8:05 AM

The hall of heads was kind of interesting from an aesthetic point of view. I wonder what the history behind those heads is? Very likely it is about religion in some way.

They remind me of the heads on Easter Island by the way. Coincidence? Maybe

BigDave

Jan-15-2018 8:58 AM

It certainly is about something very tied into the Engineers Very Ancient History, these beings are no doubt very significant to their entire culture which appears to be very Ancient and Very Ritualistic where the importance of Sacrifice seems to be key.

We have to wonder/question if those Head Statues are the Ancient Ancestry of the Engineers who come from that Planet?  Or did those Founders come from another place?  Its implied this place is the Engineer Home-world, but then could it be the only place?  could it be only just the FIRST

We can speculate in 500 years, 1000 years, 5000 years we could be among the Stars, and Mankind could settle down and Colonize many Worlds... But EARTH would be our Origin but by no means the only Place we find Human Civilization once we master the Stars as we see late in the Aliens Franchise, or like in Star Trek etc.

IF this Planet is the Origin of the Engineers, the Question is this those Head Statues place of Origin too? If it is then we surely see the Engineers have left this place to go to other worlds, and Earth is likely not the ONLY place they have visited and interacted with over History.    If those Wise Beings in the Hall of Heads are NOT from Planet 4, this does not mean the Engineers in Prometheus are not from Planet 4, they could have came from there regardless.

There has to be Reason/Purpose why those Engineers leave Planet 4 and Arrive back, and then we have to ask if there is another RACE/Being above those Engineers, who created them, or had interacted with them and USE them for some Purpose...   Is there a Hierarchy above them, or was their and did those Engineers eventually Learn to Use/Steal another Races Technology to then Explore the Galaxy?

This is the HUGE Scope that Prometheus set up, were we can clearly see the Xenomorph is put a part of this, who large a part who knows... it could be they are just as relevant as Mankind Viruses to use in Biological Warfare, or Mankinds Discovery and Evolution of Black Powder Weapons that leads us to our Primary Weapon of Defense in the Military.

It sadly appeared while Prometheus opened up the Door to this HUGE Scope, Alien Covenant appears to have began to shut the door on this.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-15-2018 9:03 AM

I find it interesting the significance of the 7 Elders in Prometheus and what could be 7 Head Statues in the Hall of Heads, many Ancient Mythos seem to be around 12, 7 and 8 Divine higher beings.

Sumerian Mythos we have the 7 Higher Gods of Creation, Norse there are 8 and Biblical there are 7 Archangels but its key to remember before HIS Fall Lucifer would have made that 8 of Gods Higher Angel Order.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

jdvyne

Jan-15-2018 11:47 AM

There are obviously 7 Heads in the room.

I speculated a few months ago if some of the stonefaces we see on Planet 4 resemble some Engineers we see in Prometheus.

For example the middle head looks similar to the big stone head we saw in the dome in Prometheus.

[img]http://www.alien-covenant.com/aliencovenant_uploads/heads_close_up.png[/img]

sherris

Jan-15-2018 3:32 PM

BigDave - After reading your input around scarification and the fact we see evidence of this in Prometheus and the hall of heads, coupled with the fact that the sacrificial Engineer showed no evidence of this. 

Then I am thinking that there are either seperate groups closely related AND the seeding of Planets does not get scarification and that this process is a reward for something entirely different.

Kings, Warriors, Healers, Industrialists, scientists even a royal family receive these rewards and marks of respect for other areas. Meaning, potentially there is a lot more to the Engineer mythos than we can hope to speculate ?

Any thoughts on that? OFF TOPIC SORRY i know but i am on board with your OT. There is a connection and i think it will be more than we hoped if we ever get THAT film

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

BigDave

Jan-15-2018 5:05 PM

No worries i think its indeed relative to the Topic, it appears the Engineers may not Scar themselves in Person, but that Statues and Monuments made to honor them could have markings with similar meanings to why Ancient Cultures on Earth do similar things to themselves.

The Head Statues in Alien Covenant seem to lack as many lines and markings as the one in Prometheus however.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Dark Nebula

Mar-18-2018 8:01 PM

Looks like there are 7 stone heads after all

Source:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BVr-wQWlPEA/?taken-by=matthatt0n

"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.

Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."

- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"

Dark Nebula

Mar-20-2018 2:00 AM

I think the hall of heads might also be a council, a political importance, not just religious.

I was watching Star trek nemesis one day, and when I saw the Romulan council the first thing that came to my mind was the hall of heads from AC, especially the floor.

The hall of heads is very ancient and old.

"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.

Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."

- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"

daliens

Mar-20-2018 2:48 AM

Abu Simbel, Egypt 

7 is considered a sacred number, even the God's number.

7 Wonders of the World

7 capital sins and the 7 catholic Sacraments

7 days resulting in the Creation of the World mentioned in the Bible

7 chakras in Hinduism

7 days of the week

7 colors of the rainbow.

Etc.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Jan-27-2019 3:58 PM

Nice to come across this Old Thread... Saves me Making a New Thread....  I forgot to reply to some of the newer posts on here.

INDEED... 7 is a important Number especially in context to some Religious and Mythical Texts...  such as there was  Seven Archangels but also 12 is another Important Number, such as the 12 Disciples/Apostles

Ridley Scott referred our Hall of Heads to the 10 Apostles but then RS is prone to make the odd mistake and he could have meant 12?

@Dark Nebula

Thanks for the Share... indeed we see 7 were Made, but also there is NO Point making more if they would not be shown/shot due to where the Cameras would be set up.. If we assumed there was 12 or 10, but the Camera Angles that would be shot would only show up to 7, then it saves Production Cost/Time to not make the Unnecessary extra Heads.   This is why we dont get the Full Heads for some, some are Cut off lower than others the Heads Closer to the Cameras seem to be only Created until Below the Eyes but the ones in the Foreground are Build up to past their Eye-Brows.

I have taken the Image you shared and done a mirror image of it to maybe give us a view of what may behind the Cameras.

The Semi-Circle is now made kind of WHOLE...  Head 1 and Head 6 seem to Mirror at the same point and so in theory should occupy the same Location.

Head A in this mirror image No-Longer sits around the Circle, and so we discount this.... well Head A is likely where Head 7 now sits.   If we look at the Hall of Heads as being a Circle Room with Heads Spread Out Equally, then this image we can count 10 Different Heads... maybe this is where Ridley Scott said the 10 Apostles but there could be some Margin of Error (there could be a bit more space between where those Semi Circles Meet up, that would allow for TWO more Heads.... so i think its likely the HALL OF HEADS does contain 10/12 Heads.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-27-2019 4:30 PM

"I think the hall of heads might also be a council, a political importance, not just religious."

Indeed totally Dark Nebula... this place is of Great Importance, it is a Place that reminds me of a Council Meeting Place.... a COUNCIL OF ELDERS...

Which is where for a few weeks i had Planned a New Topic but having came across this, it FITS here so no need to take up more Website Space.... so here is what i was going to do with a New Thread...

THE COUNCIL OF ELDERS

I watched Alien Covenant again a few weeks back and something dawned on me, that had a few times before but i then forgot to discus it on here...  Again this time i have remembered to.

The Cathedral is a Important Part of the Engineers City, a Cathedral and as such some may think this means a Religious Connection/Place but a Cathedral is usually also a place of Conference and Assembly for the Bishops.  A Council if you would.

Ridley Scott/Chris Seagers also indicate to us this place that contains the Hall of Heads, is of Great Importance and is where the Engineers kept all their Knowledge...

They also suggest these Hall of Heads are the Hierarchy (Order above the Engineers) Wise Men (Very Ancient or Long Lived) the Apostles (those who pass on/spread their ways) and Superior Beings (superior to who).

The Purpose of a Apostle is to GO AWAY and spread the Teachings/Ways of their Leader/God... if you would... so in context of the Bible its those who go away and spread the Teachings of the Bible to as many as they can..  In context to the Engineers it must imply these beings in the Hall of Heads are tasked with GOING AWAY and teaching the Ways of the Hierarchy to many places.

Now i would like to draw your attention to the CIRCLE Patterns in the Hall of Heads

There are many other images, including Concept Work that seem to show the Floor is kind of like a ANCIENT STAR CHART.

We see at the Center their is the FIRE... maybe this represents the EYE the Center of the Galaxy?

 The Hall of Heads.. floor has a similar pattern of Circles, but then we have Circles within the Circle, many of these are just before/beneath the Heads.

Is it possible that Each of these Elders was tasked with Governing over a certain part of the Galaxy, a Certain World?   They would GO too and FROM this place to Spread the Engineers Ways, and Return just as a APOSTLE would?

Could the MAP be the Universe in part and each Circle near each head represents a Galaxy that each Elder played some Great Role in?

Each Head also looks different to the others, slightly, some look very Prometheus Engineer, while others look more Human.   Maybe we need to look at what Chris Seagers had said..  " I don't know if you call the Engineers a race, but they're a civilization, "

So maybe each of these Elders/Hierarchy in the HALL OF HEADS are slightly different?

Certainly seems maybe this place was where they would MEET and use as a COUNCIL and keep their Knowledge/Teachings..

Do the Circles on the Floor, represent Worlds, Constellations or Galaxies that each of these Apostles would go to/forth from?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-27-2019 5:03 PM

Taken another image from the Concept that shows 6 heads and mirror imaged that through the Center of the Fire/Circle which is more clearer of the Center than the first attempt with the other image...  This reveals that 12 Heads could Circle Perfectly.

I then went back to the other image which was shown not dead center so you never saw the Fire/Center, and its hard to adjust where the center is due to the Angle of the shot but i suspect if you accounted for the missing proportion of the Semi Circle you could likely had fitted TWO more Heads.

Realized i had covered HOW MANY heads before in this Inside the Temple which seemed to amount to 10.

But the NEW topic i was going to do but placed here is not so much the relevance of the Number, be that 7, 8, 10 or 12.

But more to discus this place being the Council of the Apostles and a Meeting Place and then what connection does the Circled Floor have... and is it to indicate each of these Apostles Regular goes to those places or just to indicate they each come and go Separately to different parts of the Galaxy to conduct their Business and then Return.

If these Apostles regularly come and go, this means they are Ancient Beings indeed...  and maybe why the Engineer Crowd would be so Excited to see the Return of one of the Founders/Hierarchy of their Civilization...   But how WONG was they..

If these Elder Apostles are still ALIVE then someday SOME would return and well i bet they would not be pleased to Discover what has been done to the World they Hold their COUNCIL upon..

To have any Engineers Turn up would not be a Good Thing... to have one of the FOUNDERS return would surely be something that David would not like when THEY get their hands on him.

This is all just theory and interpretation.... but it does draw me to conclude these Beings in the Hall of Heads.. either Set Off to Various Parts of the Galaxy to Seed/Govern, or they set off to different places and return once their work has been done.    The Question is are any of these Beings in the Hall of Heads still ALIVE?

If Ridley Scott suggests they are SUPERIOR then is that to Mankind? is that to the LV-223 Engineers, is that to the Planet 4 Engineers... bearing in mind the Planet 4 are referred to as the Originals...  yet this Hall of Heads is their Hierarchy.

If this means these Hall of Head Apostles are Superior to the other Engineers (Planet 4 and LV-223) then maybe these are NOT the kind of guys you want to UPSET..

Maybe room indeed for ONE or more of these Superior Apostles to RETURN and maybe even be much Taller than our Engineers...

Could one of these GUYS end up in that PILOT CHAIR on LV-426?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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