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So, David has DEFINITELY tried to copy the engineers in Xeno design...

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Starlogger

May-31-2017 3:27 PM

Finally got to the section of the book with Oram and David, and there is NO doubt that the Engineers were in fact the original creators of the Xeno. David worked to try and recreate it, apparently. Don't know why the movie didn't communicate this better.

21 Responses to So, David has DEFINITELY tried to copy the engineers in Xeno design...

dk

May-31-2017 3:41 PM

Just guessing it was decided that it would play out better for the mass casual viewer market?

Tiwaz

May-31-2017 4:51 PM

What did I say, some time ago? ;)

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

BigDave

May-31-2017 4:52 PM

The clues would add up to this....

The Xenomorph in AC seems more Evolved as far as the use as a Weapon, Faster Gestation, Faster Growth, More Aggressive and more Quicker.

Combined with Fassbender saying in a interview around the Holiday Period 2016....  when asked if David and Shaw are alone when they arrive....  Fassbender mentions "as Far as we know"

This could be applied to us the viewer meaning David has taken something else with him. Or that something else has got on the ship that David and Shaw was not aware of.

That could lead to the Eggs Eventually.

But we need to remember RS has changed a fair bit and we dont know how much any Edits/Cuts and Re-shoots had changed for the Movie.

But we have to accept that DAVID Now Actually created the Xenomorph...  But they could just as easily have him shown that he Re-created it for the next movie especially if RS and FOX think the whole David Created it Scenario is coming under a lot of FIRE

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Timmy the ultramorph

May-31-2017 8:34 PM

Big dave, if david created them then how was that mural on the wall in prometheous. perhaps it was like a prophecy that the engineers made or...... The engineers have time travel!!!!!! 

food ain't that bad! - Parker

David 7

May-31-2017 8:58 PM

Also at the end of the novel, David contacts Weyland-Yuntani using his name and number classification, unlike the movie, where he used Walter.

ali81

Jun-01-2017 1:38 AM

I thought RS had confirmed in a podcast david is the creator? this is where a film consisting of mainly just engineers would help. a look back in time to explain just what their connection to the goo/hugger/xeno is would help and I was hoping to see some of this in covenant.

Nycro

Jun-01-2017 3:15 AM

@ali81

The way it was worded and the terminology used, he could have very well been speaking about what we see on screen, not historically.

Starlogger

Jun-01-2017 6:21 AM

@ali81 RS doesn't have to fully comprehend every single nuance of the original script. Quite often directors are given too much credit. Ridley would know that "IN THIS FILM", David created the Xeno, but he may have forgotten what the original scripts had detailed, since he'd only been working with a screenplay day to day since the production began way back when. His only job was to get that screenplay onto the big screen within the constrictions that Fox gave to him.

suwhited

Jun-01-2017 6:28 AM

@ali81. After starting reading the novel, it seems to be a slight bit of disconnect with Ridley and ADF on a few key issues. Backstory on Shaw, Engineers, Xenos, etc...Maybe its just me, but I believe that these are intentional for the sake of generating a movie that fans would really want....

Maybe, I don't know what the hell Ii am talking about, either...

Starlogger

Jun-01-2017 7:29 AM

@suwhited Lol...no i think you know exactly what the hell you're talking about!

QueenElizabethShaw

Jun-01-2017 7:47 AM

This has already been discussed. The book really doesn't give us confirmation. At present the theory that challenges the idea of the book confirming is this.

In that scene, David was lying his face off to Oram, trying to get him to go peak in an egg. It is VERY possible that when he said he found the egg and didn't create it, he was trying to disarm Oram by vilifying the engineers and styling himself as innocently studying the creature.

IN REGARDS TO THE MURAL

Between Prometheus and Covenant we have at least two examples of creatures that could fit the image in the mural that are not xenos.

That image could either be the neomorph or the Deacon or any other creature the goo creates with an elongated skull. And yes when we pull up images of the mural we can see facehugger-like creatures and eggs BUT that really wasn't shown in Prometheus. We mostly got a quick glimpse of the central figure.

Engineer Tech Brett

Jun-02-2017 5:11 AM

“It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the Engineers’ skill. And also, I suppose of their hubris. “Would that I could create something so perfect in its function,”

 

a page later.

 

Bringing Oram down to the Egg Chamber David then says this…

 

“And thus you see the end of my experiments, Though I marshalled ideas aplenty, I could go no further. No more subjects. No way to finish my masterpiece.”

 

 

If David is honest about his pursuit of creativity then he's doing it right. He's looking at what others did and changing it to further the progress. We've seen already that the Engineers had developed the Black Goo that creates monsters just like the Xeno and face huggers i.e the Deacon, Trilobite, Neomorphs. 

I think David has seen what the Engineers were developing and melded it to what he thought perfection would be.  Using Shaw he was able to create a facehugger and Xeno that is so familiar to us.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

DirtWolf

Jun-02-2017 10:00 AM

This is one of the problems with people taking everything Ridley says in interviews as gospel.  He obviously contradicts himself quite often.  I think it's to the point now where we can't be confirming things from Ridley interviews.  So he said David did create "him" in an interview, now we come to find out that's not the case.  Someone is wrong here!  Ridley or the book... I'm gonna say Ridley.  Either he's clueless or he misspoke.  Either way it seems to happen more than it should.  So the next time someone tries to say "100% confirmed Ridley Scott interview!!!!!111one" just slap that shit down.  

QueenElizabethShaw

Jun-02-2017 12:13 PM

DirtWolf

"He obviously contradicts himself quite often."

Amen to that.

It is also possible that ADF found in the ambiguity of the screenplay, an opportunity to stop Ridley from making what he perceived as a huge mistake. His approach may have been "I can't believe this guy is retconning the xenomorph origin. Not on my watch."

It would be a long shot, but if the discrepancy did successfully draw attention and it forced Ridley to go along with the book, that would be some epic activism on ADF's part. Who knows? ADF may have even foreseen the backlash, understood Ridley's mistake and then wrote a convenient exit in the book knowing that after seeing the disapproval for the David idea, it would be a quick way to switch back to something the fans would deal with, and having it in the book, it would be the most obvious path for Ridley to take in such a situation.

Then again, it does seem more likely that Ridley made a late in the game change to the script long after ADF had already finished that part of the novelization. 

Tiwaz

Jun-02-2017 12:21 PM

@DirtWolf

Amen, big time. :)

@QES

Sorry for the Amen-copy but i couldn't think anything better. :P

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

Tiwaz

Jun-02-2017 12:28 PM

 Maybe they should hire ADF for the next movie-script. XD

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

djamelameziane

Jun-02-2017 12:59 PM

To be honest Ridley has made three of my favourite films. But every time u here him he sounds just like my dad... starting one story and then ending up on the other side of the universe.  For me that's kind of what's happened in these movies:

Sorry ridders. ;)

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

Starlogger

Jun-02-2017 5:26 PM

@dj... I get that! My dad wanders in his stories so much. I wonder if RS might not be doing the same? My dad is 84, so not THAT much older than RS...but heck, he was telling rambling stories from the time he was in his 50's!

Acheron_Hunter

Jun-05-2017 2:06 PM

Two ways to go and I think both pretty much come down to Ridley becoming a hack in his golden years (a wonderfully talented hack, but still).

It seems clear to me that Covenant is not the movie he wanted to make but the movie he was more or less forced to make, a movie written by committee based on criticisms of Prometheus.

There were obviously numerous versions of the script over the years from "the beast is done" to "it's all about the beast" to "it's all about David and I'm just going to throw the beast in there whether it makes sense or not."

So, possibility A) ADF is working on a draft version of the final filming script and was not aware of changes made to the overall plot until the film was released, David made them continuity be damned and there is nothing deeper to what was put on screen than exactly what we got.

Possibility B (more likely)) The script did include those bits of reasonable doubt but clocking in at 2 hours as is (and a reported 2 and a half hours actually filmed) huge chunks of narrative and exposition were cut to focus on the action and set pieces. If we assume that only what is on screen is canon then we are left with the clear impression that David is the original creator but after 3 viewings I've noticed they are also very clear to not explicitly state this as fact. Nothing in this portion of the book contradicts what is stated in the film, it is just additional explanation for clarity.

Fighting a deadline and wanting to keep running time down at a certain point a decision was made to leave us with the impression that David is the creator which is not so much of a statement of fact as it is an "are you kidding me" kind of cliffhanger. But the wiggle room is there.

Look for Awakening (or whatever it ends up being called) to reflect the same kind of reactionary film making as Covenant: if David as the creator picks up traction it will probably go forward as the definitive explanation. If there is overwhelming criticism of that idea from the core demographics targeted by these films then we can fully expect Ridley/Fox to reintroduce those earlier plot ideas in Awakening revealing David's creatures just recreations of something far older, mysterious and, to me, intriguing.

Sometimes you should just let the artist work instead of directing their hand. Covenant, as beautifully filmed as it was, as much as I did enjoy the first 2/3rds, also seems to be the poorly paced/plotted result of too many cooks stirring the pot.

 

My 2 cents anyway.

Necronom 4

Jun-05-2017 2:41 PM

@Starlogger; "Finally got to the section of the book with Oram and David, and there is NO doubt that the Engineers were in fact the original creators of the Xeno. David worked to try and recreate it, apparently. Don't know why the movie didn't communicate this better."

But Ridley showed us and told us (via interviews) that David created the Alien. That is Ridley's vision. The novelizations mean shit when they're competing with an Hollywood blockbuster.

I always used to respect the guy for his creativity. He WAS a very talented filmmaker.

Just do what I do and imagine your own beginning and ending.

Some people here are slating people who have a negative review of Covenant. But those people who are being slated are the ones who have imagination. They (myself included) hoped (maybe naively) that Ridley and Fox would give them something on par with what they held in their own imaginations, but instead were given one mans vision of the ALIEN backstory.

He and FOX have basically SPAT on Gigers grave because I'm pretty sure that this wasn't the vision Giger had for the backstory. 

And yes, without Giger's influence the original would have been just another B Movie monster flick, simple as.    

The poster was good though!

 

Acheron_Hunter

Jun-05-2017 6:13 PM

@Necronom 4

I agree with you 100%, except I would add that Ridley is so prone to changing his mind and Fox so keen to demand rewrites we have no idea where the story will be next time around.

But yes, according to Covenant and Ridley's wondering mind, David made them. 

I can even appreciate the symmetry and philosophy of that answer, the implication of two beings incapable of procreating (David and Shaw) becoming "mother" and "father" of the Beast... but not at the expense of, in my opinion, ruining the original film and any mystery left. 

Before the David scenario the Alien was an absolute unknown but seemed to get the better of the Space Jockey. 

Add Prometheus and see how advanced they were, their capabilities, and even without featuring the Alien just knowing it's out tgere and these guys can't tame it made it even more threatening. 

But now that's all gone. 

I, for one, never wanted to know where the Alien came from or who "made" it. I think just giving it a name in throwaway dialog, Xenomorph, was bad enough. I was perfectly happy with Ridley exploring the Engineers or other creatures/species and never overtly mentioning the Alien again.

Now he's painted the mythology into a corner which just isn't very satisfying to me. If you like the David twist I'm sure it adds to your enjoyment of the films overall. But if you don't it's pretty well tainted the rest of the movies.

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