Alrighty, so now that we have had a Xeno centric movie, with light Prometheus touches, it's time to get back on track. The next film needs to find a balance between "Alien" horror and Prometheus scale. I also think it's time for the Big Chap to be put to rest. I love it. It's great. But it's run its course. It's time for new creatures like the Neo, Deacon, and Ultramorph to shine. These critters have deeper connections with the Engineers anyway. We need a film where we get our answers, while also enduring the threat of Hulking Deacons, scuttling Neomorphs, and the monstrous Ultramorph, all while setting the stage for the 1979 classic. There is a balance. Scott just needs to find it. It can be done. Let us, as a community, stop complaining to Scott, and start shouting encouragements towards him. Tell him that his original plans still have life. Encourage him to go forward with the Engineers, the answers, and the new monster, barely teased at the end of Prometheus. You go Ridley!! I have faith in you!
The mutation from the Black goo pathogen was mixed. Some of the creatures were aggressive and hostile, but maybe not as effective as Davids design. David loves playing God and the creator, perhaps the reason he destroyed the Engineers home world. I think he will play destroyer again too. A neurotic robot is the most powerful being in the universe.
I agree, I hope the sequel is packed with more profound themes and finds a balance between the claustrophobic horror of Covenant and the philosophical concepts of Prometheus.
with Covenant coming up next week Scott should to find a great scryptwriter that is the problem, and the right history to fit well in the Alien timeline, and give him another chance.
Changed the Title a bit, as the potential is this Topic could cover elements that would reveal Plot Details to those who have yet seen the Movie.
I have already a rough idea where the next movie will go... its going to be as predictable as AC was....
I have a Idea how to do the Ending to Tie up Loose Ends.. but with the way Ridley and Logan handled AC i am not sure the ending they choose would be quite as Less Plot Hole, as the one i would propose...
I'M HERE RIDLEY IF YOU NEED A WRITER lol
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I agree Chris, I think Ridley needs to stick with his initial vision and not buckle to pressure.
BigDave, I really hope you're wrong. I hope that Ridley has a change of heart and gives us the deep answers that we are waiting for while also showing us newer critters than the Big Chap
I think it's a fairly safe bet that the next film will be - David uses the colonist on the Covenant to continue his 'experiments', another Earth ship, fall of bumbling scientists & other Humans with no sense of self preservation or health concerns what so ever, stumbles across the Covenant or wherever David ends up, and round & round we go again! How we're going to get to Alien 1 is a mystery at this point. but for it to happen we need to find another Juggernaut & a pilot, most likely David seeing as the Prometheus story arc has apparently turned into 'David's Odyssey', with a few proto-Xeno's & other idiots thrown in!!
The only thing i can say to give some of us HOPE!!!!
Alien Covenant Started as a Idea shared by Ridley and Lindeloff at the time they finished on Prometheus, this evolved... and in 2013 Ridley Scott got the go ahead off FOX and Paglen was brought in... but Ridley had busy Schedule.... in 2014 Green was brought in to re-write the draft and eventually come around October 2014 it was Finished, then the Process of roughly coming up with designs and ideas to paper visually for how this draft would look was under way.
November 2014 Began work on Pre-Production... Concept Work too.
During Production and Concept work, in the Summer of 2015 due to a change of heart/plan... Logan came in and re-wrote the movie a few times.. Due to anticipation for Alien 5, and disappointment with Prometheus that never Gave the Answers to the Xenomorph Origin and Space Jockey directly and how Prometheus 2 was not going that route either.
So we get announced November 2015 the next movie will be Alien Covenant. Shooting begins Spring 2016.
What this means....
Ridley Scott has a idea now, how to make this movie connect to Alien, they have a broad Synopsis and they need to work it into a draft, which they are working on as we speak.
Depending on Ridleys Schedule and other Cast Members, and the Drafts Progress... Ridley plans to have the Next Movie begin by Summer 2018 Latest and released no doubt by May 2019 Latest.
He does think he will begin the next one within the next 12-14 months, to be released in 18 Months or so..
I would assume Ridley may indeed want to start Production by November 2017 to March 2018 as far as where to go etc.. and actually shooting i would assume Spring to Summer 2018 as a Starting Point....
Because i do feel they would want to get Alien Awakening that will show us the Derelict and Space Jockey on the 40th Year Anniversary of Alien and i would not be surprised if its released or at least Premier on April 26th 2019... i would be willing to gamble on this Year (2019) for sure and maybe indeed Alien Day 2019..
which means indeed Shooting would have to be under way by Next Summer..
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR COMMENT?
This means before they actually start to go full force working on the next movie there will be a good 6 Months at least maybe 9 Months of Criticism aimed at Alien Covenant for them to look at.
So if they was some part way through Prometheus 2 before they gave in to Fans Reactions and Changed to give us the Alieny Alien Covenant.... then maybe they will listen to Fan Reaction again?
POWER TO THE PEOPLE....
A lot depends if they will do a U-Turn again though, but they could certainly change some things to adjust to it.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Just to put this out there, the film is more likely to do incredible at the box office than not. There are more Alien fans than Prometheus fans. If Scott is going to hear our concerns and hopes, we will need to be very active.
If most movie goers are celebrating that Scott left the Prometheus style and there's a minority that is complaining there wasn't enough Prometheus, who do you think Fox and Scott are going to listen to?
I suggest if we want to make an impact, we take an active role in increasing our numbers. This means acting as actual ambassadors for Prometheus. Some examples of action any of us can take NOW are as follows.
1. Be sure to write your concerns in reviews anywhere you can. Do this soon. Remember, the next film is being written NOW and should be ready to shoot within a little over a year. There is a very small window to make a meaningful impact without creating delays. If we make an impact too far down the road and Ridley decides to throw everything out and start over, it will take longer to get to shooting and may even never get made (depending on Ridley's health and other factors).
2. Find other fans online who feel as you about the future of the films and have them actively join you in this effort by following these steps.
3. If you have any friends or relatives who haven't seen Prometheus and you believe they might like it, make a point to endorse it to them. Share some of the broad interesting concepts with them. Get them interested. If you succeed in sparking an interest, show them the damn movie. Then if they enjoyed it, tell them the sequel is in theaters now and suggest seeing it together. Let them feel the same disappointment of not getting those larger answers. They will hunger for more, and you will have increased our numbers.
4. Buy cheap dvd copies of Prometheus and hand them out on the street to people who have not seen it. Tell them it's free, it's an awesome movie, and the sequel just hit theaters. (target people who seem like they are entrenched in the review writing lifestyle or bloggers)
NOTE: Step 3 and Step 4 are extremely important because you have a win-win setup. If the person likes Prometheus, you have increased our numbers and created one more person who would recommend Prometheus and who is likely to voice frustration with AC for deviating from it.
If they do NOT like Prometheus, worst case is they'll write a bad review for it (which won't affect anything since Fox won't be monitoring Prometheus sales).
The other plus to them not liking it is that they will be less likely to go see AC, which will also alter Fox's and Ridley's perception in way that is favorable to Prometheus.
Remember, this all needs to be a swift movement that takes advantage of Covenant being in theaters. Fans will be more likely to join in this effort while it's in theaters, and the people we're marketing to will be more likely to say yes to the free dvd AND to see the sequel in a theater if they like the movie (which they already will be inclined to feel. After all, they are getting a copy of a flashy sci-fi movie with some top brass actors for free.)
To those of you who self identify as lazy, I encourage you to consider that you need only exert this kind of increased effort for the next month and a half. After this you can return to your default level of energy.
"How we're going to get to Alien 1 is a mystery at this point".
Actually fairly straight forwards... i think this is the problem... i think it can Predict how it will END at the very least... i have what i think may happen... my alternative to how i would do it that would lessen the Plot Holes... and i can come up with a alternative that may please Alien/Prometheus Fans..
i will discus these after the 20th...
I may even attempt to write a Alien Awakening Draft
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Well said QES ;)
Totally agree.... you make excellent points.. People i have seen the movie with 4 others, seemed to not have no problems with Alien Covenant... 3 of them never enjoyed Prometheus.
Early tonight, i head some reactions after the movie and well they seem to sum up the crowd that was the cause for the change of plans...
"Better than Prometheus, Engineers was stupid.. not as good as Aliens though"
"do you think we will see the Space Jockey Alien next time, or does David create it"
"cant wait to the next movie, do you think it comes out after Alien 5"
So its seems the general % of people care for seeing Aliens and Eggs, and seem to not care about how much of Prometheus was not covered... or how much some Alien Lore is changed.
As Ridley Scott said... "they want F-ing Aliens, ill give then F-ing Aliens" and for the higher % its what they wanted to see.
So indeed i think we need to make it known that we feel the Engineers Angle opened up a whole world to explore...
The Xenomorph was just a Bi-product of the Black Goo that the Engineers Created.... there is more to Mankind than when we created Nuclear Energy/Weapons or Gunpowder... and the same can be said about the Engineers.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
My secret wish now is that all potential prequels to Alien evolved like, say, Lord of the Rings films - not much time in-between and unified by a continuous narrative and common themes. I know it is not an adequate comparison, as LOTR films are based on one book, and the script was in place upfront, while here we have each installment written and re-written by different writers with different ideas and writing style, a lot of attention to fan base and dollar figures, [fan-favorite] elements of the installments that came after Alien, etc. Someone in this or another thread rightfully noticed that we should be patient and wait for how other installments evolve and how all prequels will compliment one another and paint the wholesome picture, particularly the mysteries laid out in the original Alien and the grand themes introduced in Prometheus. I am all for it but do not want to wait for 5 or so years for each installment and wish for faster releases that however will not compromise the quality of the franchise. Anything that came after Alien did not intend to answer questions from the original or address the mysteries, the focus was on the beast and the new heroine Ripley. And it is fine, and these sequels were entertaining, and I love them all, but since Prometheus opened doors for bigger things, they better bring it home. I want to still be alive to see logical connections, even using the logic of this fictional (and beautiful) universe, instead of loose ends. I have a lot of faith in Ridley, but that faith is often challenged by FOX.
A perfect summoning up of the matter.
Looking back at last night what Wayne Haag said makes sense in a different way to the one I expected. He talked about David being a straight line from Prometheus that the film would answer tons of answers and dispense with the bullshit.
The reality is the way many questions were answered was to dispense with them and simply say here it is obvious what happened now lets get on with the bug hunt.
Instead of making the revelations interesting and investing them with some emotional weight he tried to place all the emphasis on the psychological uncertainty of the main character and gave it so much responsibility that for me that element buckled. David was asked to make so many twists and turns to make the narrative interesting he became formulaic. It is almost as if the purpose of the ten years was used simply to create intrigue rather than make you think about the much more important issue what journey did they make and what was the outcome.
I also have the sense "The Crossing" and the prologue were much more about Prometheus than Covenant they answered some points about the former and went nowhere in the latter. In that sense Wayne Haag was right when we look at the story in the rear view mirror the only thing thats important about Prometheus, from Covenants point of view, is the ALIEN PATHOGEN.
The prologue set up two themes the creative talent of mankind and the search for our creators. David decided after the experience of Prometheus he was the latter and would explore the former from his own unique point of view closing down a whole series of interesting possibilities to make a routine movie.
By upping the intrigue and lowering the sense of journey it became a routine thriller rather than exploration of themes.
In the end the exploration of how the film might go and discussions from the spring of 2016 were much more interesting than what was dealt with. Thats me done.
I am curious as to if you would feel the same way were we to have first been given a film that follows David and Shaw to the events of Covenant, detailing a bulk of the engineer/human origins lore along the way?
I am disappointed to find that we won't be getting these elements of Prometheus in Covenant and also find what I know about AC to be somewhat disappointing. In the last few days I've been asking myself the same question I just posed to you.
If we had been given another movie before this, which explained the engineers origins and why they created/hated us, would I be happy with Covenant as the third installment?
I am back and forth on the answer.
I am very happy to respond on this because my disappointment becomes invested in a creative rather than a negative response.
There are essentially two issues which need to be addressed :-
1) We are on the Engineers Home world and yet we do not see it through Davids eyes, as I expected, we see David and do not get past him. I want to know whats behind him. What do all the things we see mean !! In that sense it is the same as Prometheus there is a head room, murals and a tomb what are they. There is a multiple headroom a sense of worship what are they ? Mere texture. You could argue it restores the mystery but thats two movies with no answers.
2) David and Shaw. This was always going to be tricky the Crossing took us a long nicely but the answer is just another dissembling by David, of many, and in amongst the many he becomes to me a disinteresting entitlement driven monster. Elizabeth (and Noomi) were worth more than that. He says and does things which have no rational connection and the dialogue thats missing is the challenge "why David for f... sake did you do that you say you loved her?" it would help the story and help us rest Shaw. I can come up with an answer it but we need to be angry/cry respond to his madness in the cinema rather than leave that central dichotomy to our imagination, for me the heart the core of the film is missing, and it would have empowered Daniels to get past just finding out. She is confronted with this ancient terrifying population and all she manages is to figure out who did it. I would as Richard Dreyfuss said CEOT3K have a million and one questions.
Those things could have been in the movie.
However there is a more general sense in which your question can only be answered by the prequel book coming in September. The film is called Covenant why ? Hierarchy/Gods, David/Shaw or is it merely Weyland Yutani's aspirational view of the mission. Is the poster just art work or did the Home world Engineers just grow wheat whilst the bad guys cooked up the goo on LV 223. What are the Engineers expecting from the returning Juggernaut that brings them out.
Ridley may confound us yet and prove that that stuff is for the book and whats in Covenant is for the movie to get the tentpole momentum and deal with all the people that think Covenant is better than Prometheus but still felt it was slow in parts.Without wishing to sound to arrogant, just arrogant, I know the average tentpole viewer is not looking for the same things as me.
Thanks for asking.
I'm still collating....
"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger
I will say that the Prometheus elements that were half-heartedly touched upon were too fleeting. For me David came across as far too pretentious, to the point of being cringe-worthy. If not for Fassbender it would have been laughable.
As a Prometheus supporter, I found myself looking around at the audience and waiting for the howls of laughter and groans. A few people put their jackets on and left after the David-Walter flute scene!
"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger
"For me David came across as far too pretentious, to the point of being cringe-worthy. If not for Fassbender it would have been laughable".
Thats a really neat way of putting it. You seem a lot like me you have an honest instinctive reaction and then begin to try and articulate where those feelings come from. I could hear people laughing at the flute scene. In itself, and I need another viewing it was potentially a wonderful moment BUT his relationship/interaction with Walter turned into another Hannibal Lector bait and switch moment. The more I think about it thats why I tired of David EVERY interaction went that way and of course the core one which for me was crucial why oh why did you do that Elizabeth. What i think would have been much much stronger is having his feelings for her flourish when he is repaired and she then dies because of the earlier insemination making David angry with himself and the Engineers. That would have personalised his hatred for them and explained his madness left entirely alone on Paradise with the tools to experiment. That Elizabeth gave birth to an ALIEN gives us another conundrum where was it ? Am I wrong or is that a plot point that went nowhere ?
I haven't seen the film yet but I've spoiled myself thoroughly, in part accidentally and in part as a defense mechanism. This bit that you said right here...
"What i think would have been much much stronger is having his feelings for her flourish when he is repaired and she then dies because of the earlier insemination making David angry with himself and the Engineers."
From everything I've read so far, it seems like we could still see things move in this direction. As far as I've been made aware, the movie doesn't declare that David killed her. If that is the case, isn't it possible that she died some other way, it pushed him over the edge, and it was only after this that he took her corpse and started experimenting?
I think I'd hate it if he outright killed her for experiments sake.
The only way I could accept him killing her is if he experienced some sort of dark apotheosis through learning some deeper, perhaps disgusting truth about humans, or even moreso, if he learned that the engineers were the inferiors of some higher god-like race, and he wished to make contact with/appease these gods by punishing their "wayward children" (humans and engineers) for them.
Have I been given bad information? Do we actually get confirmation that he murdered her?
David lies about her death and threatens to do the same to Daniels as he did to Shaw when she discovers drawings of Davids experiments. Both of those elements indicate hostile intent to Elizabeth and yet we have a photo on his desk of her. In this movement he needs to tell the audience why someone he profess's to love should become the object of his experiments. Is it an attempt at deification a peculiar form of motherhood for his children of the object of his love. The key instinctive reaction is the threat to do to Daniels what he did to Elizabeth. If we really are trying to explore the emancipation of Davids feelings we need a lot more intel in that moment.
There is another possibility. In the movie the loop message is now Shaw singing "Take Me Home Country Roads" Did she try to leave on her own and crash the ship. That does not help with the underlying issue of him specifically experimenting on her and lying about it. As I say the reason why this is important is it makes Davids developing emotional responses confusing. You can not have the main character who is now driving the franchise being left off the hook constantly as the "mad robot". Put simply we need to make sense of his developing humanity. The story needs underpin not just endless nihilistic bait and switch otherwise this human being loss's interest.
Excellent post. That gives me a better perspective now.
I know I saw in one review, the reviewer said that the film indicated that living with David had driven Shaw herself mad.
Was this the reviewer reading into something, or is this actually communicated clearly?
Hey what does everyone think of sending an encouraging, open letter to Ridley Scott? We could encourage him with his ideas about the Engineers, plus tell him about the crucial balance, plus adding that we want to see newer, scarier monsters like the Deacon. We could start a new thread with ideas, and then Chris could put it all together
That's a great idea. I've actually wondered myself if Chris has already done the interview with Ridley or if there is still time for him to incorporate questions about whether the Prometheus crowd is left in the dust.
If the interview is yet to come, an open letter would be a great idea. There are so many people here who wanted to see the Prometheus questions answered (I even noticed that some who claimed to dislike Prometheus, also taking interest in these answers).
Even if Chris has already conducted the interview, Ridley should be made aware in some fashion that many people on this forum (Prometheus supporters and non) want to see these questions answered.
There is a split in the Alien community. I like what the original Alien movies did, but it is redundant. i am more interested in how the Aliens were created, who created the engineers, etc.
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