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Why were all the murals sending us to the "Death temples" on LV-223?

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Starlogger

Jan-13-2017 9:55 AM

IF all those murals were made over time, all across earth, over years and years, then WHY were they all pointing to a small moon having temples/storage/manufacturing for "Death goo" over Juggernaut ships of all the places that would seem most important? To me, that is one of the biggest questions that needs answering...

37 Responses to Why were all the murals sending us to the "Death temples" on LV-223?

Rick

Jan-13-2017 10:10 AM

Some of us are of the impression that the Militaristic Engineers (Body Armored) took the moon over from another race or different kind of Engineer (Non-Body Armored like the ones you seen in the beginning of Prometheus).  

Myrddin365

Jan-13-2017 10:14 AM

This is a whole lot of pure speculation. We can infer that there was an Engineer war about 2000 years ago. We can infer that the engineers on LV-223 were one side of that war. So I have two possible explanations

1: The LV-223 engineers (reapers from now on) were rebelling against the other engineers who seed human DNA on planets (sowers from now on). This because the sowers beckon to LV -223 to give them Xeno eggs to take home and start a new hive. The reapers have to go collect eggs, but occasionally they get facehugged and they are sick of that shit. They make a daring play to capture LV-223 and succeed. They develop their black goo doomsday weapon and are about to send it to earth to prevent another xeno infestation, but hilarity ensues, and they mostly all die... Mostly.

2: the sowers were going to welcome us into the intergalactic family until the Reapers decided they hated us and took over LV-223 to find develop a way to wipe out all the seed planets. Cuz they are assholes. 

I lean towards 1 making more sense. 2 is a bit less likely.

Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!

Neomorph

Jan-13-2017 11:23 AM

Oh shit don't get me started on this one....

 

 

Did I mention how badly written Prometheus was? 

Hicks/Hudson

Jan-13-2017 11:36 AM

If there are 2 separate races of Engineers, it could be assumed that the cave paintings/murals were designed as a warning for future humans to stay away.

As it is with most things in history, the message may have just gotten lost in translation along the way.

Myrddin365

Jan-13-2017 11:52 AM

Rarely would I point TO something I wanted someone to avoid. 

Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!

Hicks/Hudson

Jan-13-2017 12:00 PM

*Friendly Engineer - "Look, if you guys ever find a way to space travel, stay clear of this area. There's only death there."

Tiago_miami_la

Jan-13-2017 5:33 PM

i don t buy the 2 faction thingy yet.

I buy time travel.i buy theory of a race that is higher then engineers. But engineers arent rebels or have 2 factions.

Intergalactic war is not the path i want alien to go.this is about the alien not the engineers..they cant expand something that has already huge questions and holes to fix

Myrddin365

Jan-13-2017 5:49 PM

Well, the war is long over. The two faction thing is heavily implied in a lot of ways that I've gone over in too many other threads.  Time travel is 10 times worse, and a cop out. If there's time travel I'm pretty sure I will punch out and not spend theatre money on another of these movies ever.

Hicks/Hudson I think the war happened AFTER all the cave paintings.

Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!

Tiago_miami_la

Jan-13-2017 6:09 PM

Why would they get in a war if they seed life and also destroy it.

Why would there be different factions if in the apocalyptic view we dont see them fight each other but rather suffering together..and theres big muscle ones too wich for me are the warriors.

 

Why would they create the bioweapon and put them in urns to kill humans

Where is it implied there are 2 factions and one rebelled?

 

How do you explain the derelict having 2000 years old..yet they transport eggs as cargo..in a total unsafe manner..by a single space jockey...how would it be tossed upon the planet? Unless you crash it towards earth...such inteligent being dont have a better way figured out?

How do you explain the eggs spawning classic xenow bio mechanical...but they worship a mural that has a deacon in it and not a traditional xeno its not bio mech but bio only.

 

How do you explain david creating a proto in AC yet 2000 years ago in lv426 full of eggs there was a derelict emitting a signal and david didnt know about it? Yet he knows about paradise?

So they had the biomech xeno figured out and used it as cargo and david creates a protoxeno with what purpose?

Do you understand what im getting at?

 

How would a rebellion in lv 223 makes sense...if the ones that were the most advanced tec engineers were there and the other faction is the one that renounces technology supposedly..nope.

Engineers are not a race who would rebel against each other. They create and destroy life.

 

Theres no proof or hint whatsoever the engineers fight against each other or rebelled against each other.

dk

Jan-13-2017 7:52 PM

Not to be a smart @ss, but maybe the Engineers thought that if we became so advanced and stupid to think it was an invitation then we would deserve to die.

Michelle Johnston

Jan-13-2017 10:18 PM

Sometimes Prometheus is criticised for low exposition when in fact it is there in the dialogue :-

1) The Engineers who had visited earth pointed out to early, and not so early man, that they came from a "system" not a planetoid. That exposition is contained in the briefing by Charlie.

For Elizabeth to then jump to the conclusion that the Engineers were offering an invitation was hubristic projection because of her Promethean preoccupation with finding Paradise because of the early loss of her mother. It was, as explained to David in her dreams, a child like preoccupation which gave Sir Peter his excuse for his own agenda. if you let go of the idea that it was not an Invitation but it was showing off to early mankind some of whom would then be taken back to LV 223 (explicit in the concept behind the story) it makes much more sense.

I hope we will see Elizabeth finally get the point in Covenant (Do not go off looking for answers which will come when we die, accept creation, mortality as it is) and when she does it will be ugly.

2) Janek was, like David, crucial to offering signposts in the dialogue. When he spoke you were meant to pay attention. In Damon's (and Ridleys) mind in 2012 LV 223 (check out the Leviticus connection in the bible L 22 - 3) was an outpost where the Engineers experimented with sub creation. What he says to Shaw was telling us a story he understood from his own career.

The Engineers experimented off world with the catalyser  to protect themselves. Unlike the purity expressed at the beginning of the movie they had become obsessed with self and sub creationism, it is represented in their appearance blending mechanical looking functionalism (their armour) which was probably the equivalent of a laboratory suit warn by humans. That does not mean a schism has occurred and the guys on LV 223 were at odds with Paradise. Janek is telling us there is testing going on in the desert a long way from downtown Los Angeles.  

The question we do not have a specific answer to is, when did this fall start from tear drop acolyte to revisionism. All that matters for the story is it did and it had consequences.  

The guys on Paradise thought they would be fine and could live with the blessings the creator provided for them whilst all this s... was going down on LV 223. Clearly the creator had other views it gave up on them, either by pursuing Noachian retribution on them or more ironically allowing the product of sub creation to destroy them. Check back after mid night on the 05.18.2017 for an answer to that one. 

MuzzleNZ

Jan-13-2017 10:21 PM

@ Tiago_Miami_la - I think there's plenty to imply Engineer factions. I think, also, this is NOT about the alien at all (as per Ridley's repeated comments of this and other sequels moving away from the 'beast').

In Alien, the Space Jockey, as intriguing as it was, was not the main aspect of the film - it served as a set up (Derelict, Space Jockey, eggs). Ridley's not remaking Alien, he's moving away from that direction. So the alien/neomorph etc are there to set up other story arcs - David's quest for God-like status; the Engineers/Space Jockey etc.

Also, I'm not sure the mural depicts a Deacon. Like Lindelof's writing, the mural was stylised just enough to imply a number of things, but confirm nothing.

Stan Winston (deceased)

Jan-14-2017 1:28 AM

All the characters in Prometheus were positively hateable. So their deaths and manner therein were very satisfying. Too bad Shaw got away, she was frankly irritating.

I think we should follow Occam's razor and simply say that Liz and Charlie got the mural address wrong! In a galaxy of 300 billion known stars (and a universe of several trillion), a 2D pattern of 5 stars cannot be unique.

So instead of finding the real paradise, they found the real hell. They chose... poorly.

Neomorph

Jan-14-2017 1:59 AM

Yep and it was costly to say the least, a total waste of money, the destination based on such shoddy evidence is laughable.

Myrddin365

Jan-14-2017 3:21 AM

When it comes to Occam's razor, Liz and Charlie must have been RIGHT about the location because there were engineers there.

It strains credulity that they got the location COMPLETELY wrong, but magically hit a planet where engineers were working on a doomsday weapon.

While it is true that they didn't use a credible method to locate LV-223, the story writers chose to validate that method. 

Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!

Stan Winston (deceased)

Jan-14-2017 3:44 AM

Yeah point taken. You inevitably have to pad out yet more assumptions to make it credible...

e.g. 1: the Engineers are actually present most places so it'd be hard not to bump into them;o r

e.g. 2: the Engineers reside on all star systems that match the mural pattern -- it's like their 'habitable zone'. It's just misfortune Liz and Charlie picked the nasty outpost.

Michelle Johnston

Jan-14-2017 6:18 AM

@Tiago_miami_la.

If someone can find anything in Damon, John and Ridley's Prometheus commentaries and in all the remarks that Ridley has made, however elliptical, since he began working on an Alien Prequel that they were attempting to create a "monster wars" narrative where the Space Jockey race turned out to be in an inter species war I would be exceptionally surprised indeed I would go as far as to say they will not find it. 

The closest by a mile that you can get to it is that Ridley has for many many years considered the cargo in the derelict a weapon. Could your argue this weapon was created as a WMD  to be used by one element of the Engineers to wipe out the other, you could but there is nothing in the entire thrust of the narrative to suggest such a course. Indeed when Prometheus was conceived with a follow up in mind what Ridley explicitly said was when E & D arrive at Paradise they find something very different from the usual concept of Paradise and he described the Engineers they would find as "Aggressive ....ers". So there was never an intent to have a hippy and military faction. 

It is only since mid to late 2015 that the New Zealand version of Paradise has emerged with a seeming group of victims. 

So as of right now with the one film published that one film was never conceived with the idea of Engineer Wars. 

Those are the facts but if you actually consider all of Ridleys pre occupations creationism. mortality and immortality they do not get close to the idea of a Geo Political Mythos he is and always discusses the saga in terms of its philosophical ideas. "The Engineers are not gods just a superior species so if they are not gods who is .. it is quite a complicated story with layers" thus spake the man. 

Its a hierarchical story not an inter species one. 

Put simply I am with you.

Starlogger

Jan-14-2017 6:24 AM

Absolutely great discussion here, thank you all. One of the beautiful things about Prometheus is---love it or hate it---that it "opens up" with repeated viewings. I.e., while other movies are stale, even after just one viewing---even the really good ones, Prometheus invites analysis and thought and...wonder.

I think the seeds have been sown for an entire mythology, and that was the point. Thank goodness for all us Alien fans.

chli

Jan-14-2017 8:11 AM

Yes, why did the engineers give us their home address (which is something that Hawking warns us from doing)? Could it be an evolutionary limit? When the seed has progressed to the point where it challenges its makers, the end station is reached? What’s the point? Children always get to this point in relation to their parents.

dk

Jan-14-2017 10:20 AM

@Michelle Jonston

"I hope we will see Elizabeth finally get the point in Covenant (Do not go off looking for answers which will come when we die, accept creation, mortality as it is) and when she does it will be ugly."

Exactly. She said she "derves" to know. I suppose she will get what she deserves.

Tiago_miami_la

Jan-14-2017 10:27 AM

@Michelle Johnston

You share same views as me our interpretation of prometheus is almost identical but in general exactly the same..in fact some of your expressed details enlightened me and my theory of the direction they going and made it seem fitting and logical towards my expectation on the sequels.

Every theory would have plot holes because they expanded the concept a lot in prometheus,such a huge concept should be perfected more before final release however our interpretation is by far the one that offers the least plot holes and makes it cohesive as a whole,upon close analysis of facts.

I dont deny there is some clashing thingys on them tryingn to explain what happened and how we will achieve alien 1 situation..ridley along this years changed his retoric and direction in some points and that ofc will cause harm to cohesive storytelling.

However finding explanation and making interpretation based on logic and facts for the less plot holes possible is the way to go rather then doing fanboy ones and thats why its always a pleasure to read from you.

MuzzleNZ

Jan-14-2017 11:04 AM

@Michelle Johnston - I feel like when I read your posts you're like the teacher that lets us have our enthusiastic speculation, then pulls us all back in to line and makes us see common sense! I agree with you - I don't think there is evidence to suggest inter-species war, at least, nothing thus far - not to say it couldn't go in that direction, if as Ridley has said in the past, sequels could move away from Alien, rather than closer too it. That implies broader exploration of other connected concepts.

In any hierarchy there are different roles. To me (perhaps squeezing more out of the 'facts' than are plainly evident), there appear to be different roles Engineers fulfil within that hierarchy. This, in my opinion, is supported by the simple fact that the goo was managed on LV-223 - perhaps not exclusively on that world, but it appears the exclusive purpose of the Engineers being on that world was the goo. Was LV-223 always intended for this purpose? Who knows, but the set up with the cave murals pointing to that star system throws a big spanner in the works. 

So, 'factions' is probably the wrong word, as is the use of 'warring'. In my opinion (fanboy or not), disagreement/dissent within the hierarchy of the Engineers seems a likely story arc with regards to the acquisition/creation, management and deployment of goo in that galaxy/universe. Whether those who are primarily interested in seeing xeno related action agree or not, the Engineers are now an important part of the wider story. Like humans (even the handful we've seen in Alien, Aliens & Prometheus), not all who are seemingly there for the same reason, have the same motives, or ultimately agree on the right course of action. I find it unlikely that the Engineers are all malevolent. I don't think this suggests a geopolitical direction at all. 

@ Tiago_miami_la - "I buy time travel.i buy theory of a race that is higher then engineers. But engineers arent rebels or have 2 factions." - Time travel would kill this franchise.

ifox

Jan-14-2017 1:25 PM

The existence of a facility for building weapons of mass destruction suggests that someone is having or expecting to have a war, yes?

Tiago_miami_la

Jan-14-2017 1:36 PM

MuzzleNZ i woudnt be surprised if the top hierarchy gods above engineers would be able to time travel.(space jockey)

Myrddin365

Jan-14-2017 2:53 PM

Are you saying the cave paintings and hieroglyphics were warnings? This is an irrational supposition because the best way to keep someone away from something is to... I don't know... NOT SHOW THEM EXACTLY HOW TO FIND IT . Say what you want about the realistic viability of Holloway and Shaw's methods, the drawings showed them EXACTLY how to get to a planet the engineers had inhabited.

"Don't come here, to this star system that looks just like this, see, I'm pointing right at it. Yeah that one. I know you can't see it yet, but don't go there once you can see where it is. In fact, go get a chisel, or paint this on your wall.  I want to make sure you never go there. Yes, right there." That sounds like a set up from Family Guy.

"We're from this system here. I know you can't see it, yet. Just sayin... You know, FYI. Sure! get a chisel, or paint it on your wall, it's not like you'll ever be able to get there." Isn't much better.

The simplest explanations are:

1: they want us to come there once we are able for something that will be good for us.

2: they want us to come there once we are able for something that will be good for them.

My above speculations follow the simplest explanations for the cave paintings and hieroglyphics. The state of LV-223 when Prometheus arrives implies a sharp divergence from both of those.  

This implies that a split, or radical shift in Engineer ideology occured roughly 2000 years ago, and that planet was repurposed to develop and manufacture black goo and distribute it to Earth and maybe other seed planets.  

A shift in ideology that drastic rarely comes about without conflict.

 

Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!

ifox

Jan-14-2017 3:36 PM

Well said, Myrddin365. I agree.

MuzzleNZ

Jan-14-2017 3:36 PM

@Myrddin365 - exactly. I think what you say is logical (though, as we know, not everything in this universe is logical!). Either way, we know (based on what was in Prometheus) that pretty much every ancient culture on Earth, spanning a very large period of time, had the same image (more or less) with the same content (more or less). Regardless of how this may have been 'passed along' various cultures, there is no doubt contact with an extraterrestrial species ('Engineers' or perhaps some other 'giant' visitors) resulted in ancient humans knowing, and being able to depict, a star system with reasonable accuracy.

Whether or not there was a 'war', some intergalactic/species conflict, or the United Council of Engineers chose to ignore its shareholders, and attempt to aggressively acquire a timeshare holiday planet to lease out to Predators, the seemingly benevolent contact in the past was set to be replaced with some pretty nasty plans. In my view, this is where the biblical connections come in to play - 2000 years ago, 'God's' emissary killed on earth, 'divine' retribution etc. They changed their minds, or their plans, or their personnel. Whatever it may be, it changed.

@ Tiago_miami_la - time travel is possible, but not really probable IMO. It would introduce all sorts of conflicts and potential plot holes regarding being able to travel back in time to alter 'history'. It may be the direction Ridley's going, but I doubt it. I think it's far more likely that:

- the Space Jockey is a being(s) that the Engineers perhaps worshiped themselves, or is a 'higher form' or Engineer, and technology was stolen from them (perhaps explaining the change in plans with Earth); or

- the Space Jockey is actually an Engineer, and it is simply continuity issues with regards to size, stated age of the Derelict etc.

I see no real plausible reason to suggest time travel is the reason the Derelict (with an apparent 'cargo' of eggs) exists on LV-426. As mentioned, if this is true, the implications are that there would be other time travelling Space Jockeys who would essentially 'reset history' be travelling back in time. I think this is overly complicated, and while possible, unlikely to be the direction.

Myrddin365

Jan-14-2017 4:20 PM

@ ifox Thanks!

@MuzzleNZ: thank you as well for the support. Devine wrath is iffy. Hard to argue that killing Jesus stopped his ideology(or some form of it) from spreading far, wide, and down through the ages.

 

Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!

Tiago_miami_la

Jan-14-2017 4:35 PM

If ridley wants to tie the story to alien from prometheus foward we have :

-Outbreak on lv 223 whatever happened is the consequence of the derelict in lv 426 2000 years ago or so its intended since time travel cant be a thing it cant happen after prometheus.( i dont buy eggs being cargo,but rather what comes from the engineer layed the eggs).

- david creating eggs and the xeno whats next and for what purpose if engineers are extint 2000 years ago and so he discovers or does it himself on paradise to the remaining ones.(altho very possible there are more in other planets why they didnt get back to Lv 223 in 2000 years and finish the deal with us by continuing what the engineer in prometheus tried asap.

- david has no knowledge of lv 426...highly unlikely honestly.since hes trying to create what is in lv 426 or probably lv 223 in other pyramids IF its cargo. However the hole melting under to the egg zone the chestbursting and how everything is set suggests otherwise or was very poorly written in logical terms.and he knows about paradise and if paradise is far away ,more then lv 426...if paradise its not lv 426 pre nuked...then what play will be at stake that makes sense.?! 

- engineers seed and destroy life...what reason why..what happened..lv 223 and paradise only places we have atm holding answers.

- space jockey larger then engineer..so it seems. Higher hierarchy different race..still waiting the answers.

- black goo able to seed life and destroy life. Catalyst for terraforming since it provides environment that supports life.

Weyland yutani want it...weyland terraforming and health evolution applications..yutani weaponary military applications.

Theory of walter creating the classic xeno..bio mech xeno is not possible or plausible. The eggs are the same the xenos are the same the protoxeno is the classic xeno..aquiring traits from the process itself and maybe environment. Acid blood the hammerpedes had it too...bio mech design can be aquired due to ship or bio mech environment. The protoxeno then is the alien we love bit differemt due to the process itself.

 

Bottom line.

What david really wants.what is his agenda.

What happened in lv 223.

Why engineers want to destroy us.

How was the black goo made and who invented it.

What happened to cause the derelict in lv 426 to crash and where it came from heading to where.

What was the space jockey.

 

MuzzleNZ

Jan-14-2017 6:58 PM

@Tiaogo_miami_la - your bottom line list is all good (get back to that in a moment). But I think some of your earlier comments actually give a few answers (or at least likely clues):

- There's no evidence to suggest what happened on LV-223 is a consequence of the Derelict on LV-426 - none, zip, zero. In fact, there's nothing connecting the two in the same time reference either. That doesn't rule out the possibility that there is a connection, but rather, that we don't have concrete proof to make categorical statements. As I mentioned before, I think (given the very heavy biblical references) the 2000 year reference in Prometheus was theological. There's no theological theme running through Alien and nothing that categorically ties the two together with regards to time (regardless of comments in Alien speculating on how long the Derelict had been there). The Derelict absolutely can happen after the outbreak on LV-223, and further, after the events of Prometheus. The timing is all speculation, but my point is that we can't make absolute statements that a+b=c when we're not really sure what 'a' and 'b' are exactly, and c is a deceptive little fella we've caught but a fleeting glimpse of. As you've stated, the goo seems to have terraforming properties, but also capability to destroy life. Not a big stretch to think a planet can be 'de-terraformed', and therefore making anything on it appear to be older than it actually is. Quite simply, time travel is not the first option for an answer to the Derelict. That's a bit like saying, in the absence of understanding, an impressive card trick must be magic, because how else could it have worked.

- I agree, David likely has no knowledge of LV-426. This has little bearing on anything at this point. Ridley said it will take several movies to directly link to the events of LV-426. Lots of time and events to happen (and/or understand what has happened that we don't yet know).

- We know Engineers seed life (we saw this in Prometheus) - we assume they can also destroy it (based on David and Janek's comments). LV-223 has some answers, as does LV-426, Paradise (if that is in-fact a different location), and likely, many other locations in the wider 'universe'. We have only glimpsed a small amount so far - the rest is all speculation.

- As mentioned before, there's one of, in all likelihood, two scenarios with regards to the size of the Space Jockey - either it's a continuity issue, and the direction Prometheus went simply didn't allow 25 foot SJs; or, as you suggest, they are different than the Engineers we've seen thus far. I'm picking the former, but I do like the idea of either different types of Engineers, or a different alien race altogether. Who knows, but that's why we're devoting hours of our lives to debating these things - because the speculation is almost as exciting as the answers!

- As above, the black goo seems to be able to do a range of things. Destroying a planet, in my opinion, is likely to make any 'artefacts' appear to be more weathered/older than they are.....

- Agree. The primary objective of Prometheus was Weyland's desire to steal 'fire' from the Gods.

- Your last point kind of answers itself. There's clearly a 'recipe' with the goo. I don't think we should assume that David/Walter are the only source of biomech (clearly Engineers had this too). Further, apparently, humans share the same DNA with Engineers (actually, not just the same, but identical according to Prometheus). To me, Walter seems to be David's ticket off Paradise, so I don't think we'll see experiments with him. I think David will be fully exploring what the goo is capable of (Shaw is likely to unwillingly assist), and potentially re-creating events of the past. So, end result, experimenting with this stuff is likely to result in very similar outcomes.

Bottom line:

I'd love to know David's agenda - what he really wants. I think @Michelle Johnston has made some great comments on this, and her comments certainly seem to ring true with what we know so far;

We may not ever know more about LV-223 other than what we know now. However, what is more important in my opinion, is why the cave images on Earth pointed to this location. That's the real question that needs answering about LV-223 (the answers could we satisfy both questions).

Do we know for sure the Engineers wanted to destroy us? Granted, the events of Prometheus have led us in that direction, but I suspect there's more to it.

Love to know where the black goo came from. I live in New Zealand, and I can think of a couple of dodgy places here that the goo may have originated from!

The Derelict crashing on LV-426 is probably the single biggest answer we all want. If you find out before me, make sure you let me know!

As mentioned earlier, the Space Jockey is, in my opinion, either an Engineer (out of scale, and therefore, dis-continuous from Prometheus); or, as you say, something we haven't seen yet.

So, my friend, there are some hardcore questions we need answers too. I have hope that AC will give us some of them, but we need to make a deal. Whatever those answers are, they are the right ones. As my mother used to say - 'shoulda, coulda, woulda, but didn't'. Can't lament the answers being not what we want.

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