Regeneration in Alien: Covenant
Posted Sep-15-2016 7:04 AM
Not only are these organism terrifying and made to survive....but are most able to regenerate? We saw the hammerpede get severed by fifield, and it grew back in a rapid speed. Although the black goo from the seeping ern affects certain creatures in their own different ways....could all black goo infected lifeforms have the ablility of regeneration?
"Must be something we haven't seen yet.."__Bishop
Posted Sep-15-2016 7:59 AM
Interesting topic, I have searched for some articles and so on about regeneration and I have read some of them. Some genes are not active but they still are there. What if the goo makes that genes active so when it comes in contact with a creature that has that gene and activates it? This doesn't mean that it makes all creatures having that ability but that it activates that gene among those that have it.
I am not a biologist so I don't know much about it, these are just some thoughts that I have.
Posted Sep-15-2016 4:47 PM
That thing is so creepy.
What impressed me was that it regenerated it's head. That is messed up. Does this mean it can't be killed? If you blew it to bits would you just get thousands, or millions more?
Where does canon fit in with all this? In Alien, the MORB wasn't injured until it was ejected from the Narcissus. Can all MORBS regenerate in Ridley's view? Covenant is gonna be real interesting.
Posted Sep-15-2016 7:59 PM
I think that's it Apex_Predator. It certainly fits with the film's direction. As Aorta pointed out, the Hammerpede regenerated its head... Usually animals who have the ability to regrow parts of their body, the head must remain intact. Although, there could be a few exceptions.
What puzzled me was the rate at which it grew back. That kind of rapid growth is unnatural and would require a tremendous amount of energy.
If this gene does exist and if the Black Goo has a method of activating it in times of peril, like an adrenal response, I doubt the regeneration could occur continuously. Realistically, it might be a one-off, as a last ditch effort for survival. For the cells to replicate at that speed is just... Ridiculous.
Posted Sep-16-2016 4:06 AM
Like so much of Prometheus, the devil is in the detail!
The Hammerpede contains so much symbolism. It's an ancient ceremonial staff come to life. It has a miniaturised MORB head at it's apex, presumably it's sensory organ, because it definitely sees Millburn.
In a seemingly childlike peek-a-boo fashion, it unfurls those winged-motif-ears, revealing an undulating slit mouth, then does it's mesmerising serpent dance, fooling, charming, then capturing Millburn!
The head regeneration is freakishly brilliant. It's unexpected, scary and alien, placing it rather fittingly alongside the other Giger-Morb family members and their traits!
You see, I have always secretely suspected that the Ridley-Giger MORB had regenerative capabilities. Perhaps I am not too far off the mark after all?
"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger
Posted Sep-16-2016 5:39 AM
Interesting Topic to discus and who knows, but i have a different view of the EVENT which goes with how i view the Black Goo, and what i interpreted it as... which was backed up by how Spaights Nano Scarabs work.
I wont go into much detail as its been covered over and over, and so i would discus only about the Black Goo in the Urns.
If we ASSUME... the Black Goo acts as both a Bio-Former, and a Mutagenic Catalyst and some how it contains (well passed on) DNA Traits of a Xenomorph or related DNA..... then the process of the Hammerpede is pretty simple.
The Black Goo is a Biological Tool that overall Manipulates and Changes the DNA of living Cells/Organisms it comes into contact with.... it acts as a Evolutionary Accelerant that also passes on DNA related to the Xenomorph.
In affect we see infecting Organisms being Evolved into Hybrid Organisms that are part Xeno DNA (or similar related DNA) but the Substance does not completely re-write the DNA to be Xenomorph....
I believe the Mutagenic Bilogical Agent acts as a Evulutionary Accelerant that aims to Evolve a Organism to improve its DNA, to make it more perfectly suited Organism.... the Goo contains DNA of something related to the Xenomorph and passes this DNA onto any Organism it infects... but the Goo also looks at the best traits of the infected Organism... it re-writes traits and genes that are less Perfect than that contained within the Goo (Xenomorph) but then any native traits that are beneficial of the Organism do not get re-wrote they get Evolved.
The worms we see that go into the Black Goo, if we assume they are similar to Earth Worms (No Pun Intended) then we know Worms can regenerate... cut them into two and they will regrow the part of them that was severed.
The actual process of a Earthworm is different... it does not regrow a head... its head regrow a new body..... but lets just look at this in a simple fashion as most people understand WORMS where we think that you can cut it in half and it does not die but Regenerates... this to a degree is correct.
If we assume they based the Worms in Prometheus as being similar to our Worms on Earth and so if we ASSUME the Prometheus Worms when cut in half etc... will regenerate but at a slower rate like Worms on Earth do.
Then we look at how the Goo works as far as the way i see it does... and the Worm Evolves into Hammerpedes... but as being able to regenerate is a handy trait to have... the Black Goo Evolves this Trait...
So now it has Rapid Regeneration....
Why is it so Rapid? I think its safe to assume the Xenomorph DNA that is passed on carries Xeno traits and one trait of the Xenomorph Organism is Rapid Grow and replacement of Cells.
The Incubation of a Xeno Embryo from a Face Huger to a Chest Buster Birth is a pretty rapid process.... the Chest Busters growth to a Adult Xenomorph is again a exponentially rapid Growth.
If we go to Shaws Baby.... the Process from Fertilization of one of her Eggs... to a Fetus that was removed via C-Section was again a very rapid Growth Process.... likewise how fast the Baby Trillobite grew to the Adult one that Face Hugged the Engineer... again a very rapid growth.
Then we have the Worms... look how fast it was for them to go from tiny Worms to Hammepedes in such a short span of time.
And so its not beyond the realms of possibility as far as Sci-Fi Canon for the rabid growth of cells to be passed on to the time it would take for the Hammerpedes to re-grow its head.
I assume the Regeneration is a trait inherited from the Worms... i assume the Acid Blood is a trait inherited from the Xeno DNA.
I do like Apple Pie, hope to share some on my Birthday in May!
Posted Sep-16-2016 5:58 AM
If we look at the way the Sacrificial Goo worked... i think this substance breaks down the Hosts DNA and then it becomes a new Genetic Soup... the substance breaks down and stores the DNA of the consumed Sacrificial Host, this new substance now contains that Sacrificial DNA (Engineer in the case of the opening Scene) and then this substance infects Organisms it comes into contact with and Evolves them to pass on Engineer DNA in the case of a Engineer Sacrifice.... If the Engineer was Sacrificed inside a Glass Tank and his broken down material was collected and transferred into a container and the contents of this poured into a Lake would the result not have been the same?
I think it would...
So the Urns contain DNA of a Organism related to the Xenomorph... this Organism would have been Sacrificed (which is what i think the Mural Stands for).
AND SO I BELIEVE.....
Maybe what if the Xenomorph related DNA has a main trait of its Rapid Growth Cycle and how it can replace DNA fast... essentially Grows fast..... much faster rate than Mammals or even Insects etc.
If this trait is passed on to infected Organisms via the Sacrificial Soup made from a Sacrificed Xeno related Organism (Black Goo) then this Black Goo when used on a World... would Evolve Life at a much much faster rate than maybe the Sacrificial Engineers DNA did.
So for a Race of Genetic Engineers, seeing that when related DNA to the Xenomorph is added to the POOL.... this provides a much faster Evolution... this Trait of the Xenomorph.. then makes for a much more PERFECT Element as far as the purpose of the Seeding Process....
Evolution on Earth may have taken a long time... from basic life to advanced... the Engineers Seeding Speeded up the Process.. but what if does not Evolve as fast as we see the Black Goo in the Urns did..
So the Engineers coming across something related to the Xenomorph by mistake (or Punishment) lead to them realize they are dealing with a Organism that has potential benefit to the Agenda of the Engineers which is to try and improve DNA to Evolve Species... in search of Perfection.
They then started to Worship this Organism and carried out Genetic Experiments on it until they had created the Mural Deacon... this was seen as PERFECTION.... its DNA now added to the Genepool carried many advantages over the way things was done... ONE TRAIT in particular the VERY FAST rate of Growth that Xenomorph DNA has... is something that is very beneficial and something that VASTLY improves their Seeding/Sacrificial Technology/Biology.
They may have thought they found Perfection... a additional DNA that offered vast improvements... but they underestimated its Deadliness and how effective and uncontrollable it was.
I do like Apple Pie, hope to share some on my Birthday in May!
Posted Sep-16-2016 2:43 PM
@ApexPredator - "Maybe the goo holds the secret to immortality?"
Maybe not the goo itself, but something buried within the Alien's DNA... I have a strong feeling that we'll see the creature's ability to rapidly regenerate its own cells explored further in future films.
The Hammerpede may have had a higher than average regen factor due to its indigenous Worm DNA being hybridized with the Alien DNA. Which might have allowed the resulting creature to quickly and easily regrow its head: thanks to the added boost of Alien DNA + Accelerant increasing the rate.
Ash notes that the facehugger is one tough son of a bitch in the first film; it similarly has the ability to replace its cells at a rapid rate (but doesn't need to live very long). This makes me think that the Alien DNA itself holds the key. There are aquatic creatures that are said to be "functionally immortal." The Alien DNA allows the hybrid Ripley clone to quickly regenerate her own hybridized cells in Alien: Resurrection.
In the past, Ridley has said that "the beast is dead," but what if the creature is capable of tricking its own head back to life?Perhaps the creature is sometimes able to resurrect itself and turns out to be the key to Sir Weyland's quest for Immortality.
It's my belief that the Xenomorph is somewhat similar to the Bird in the Prometheus myth and has a hidden ability to increase the regen factor of any organism hybridized with it.
While Prometheus was bound to the Rock being punished by Zeus, the Bird returned each morning to continue pecking at his liver. Mornings are sometimes a strange concept in space. The creatures mostly come at night. "Mostly." Anyway, each morning, Zeus's bird would resurrect Prometheus - only to kill him again later that evening (in endless cycles of Death and Rebirth). There may be parallels between the Bird & the Alien.
Posted Sep-17-2016 9:02 AM
As you know the element embedded within the triangulation Zeus/Prometheus/Bird is repetitive retribution and punishment for the steeling of the fire. I think the mutagen in a wider sense represents that theft and everything it re organises and becomes fused with represents destructive retribution. It is nihilistic sub creation out of the plan. It represents Ebola like unintended consequences.
So I agree with you 100% but maybe it is wider than the bio mechaniod ethnic cleansing. The worm, as Big Dave said, does worm stuff but when mutagenised it becomes an agent of terror and punishment c.f. Fifield. It was only the retention of Charlie's love for Elizabeth that lead to his requesting a sacrificial burning before he lost control. He knew where he was heading just as Elizabeth knew instinctively that what she was carrying needed to be out.
As an aside I recalled your point about the green element to the catalyser and what it might mean. When you watch Davids extraction scene of the vial you see the green liquid with strands of black running throughout it - the life giver tainted by the mutagen.
If the Alien we are going to see in Covenant is the move on from the Deacon and is Bio Mechanoid then presumably the machine part is capable of "repair" and the bio part is capable of "re-creation". I too see this element being revealed in coming films.
For the black goo, which re organises and spits out Xeno strain wherever it ends up, to repair and act as a Xeno bandaid makes a good deal of sense. This I suspect will play out in Elizabeth who may well seek death in the face of endless birthing.
What I particularly like about your idea is it gives the beast "fresh legs" to get in close to its "biomechanology". Why and who is interesting and bits of the how would be as well. Gnashing teeth in a tin can alone will not work.
Posted Sep-18-2016 4:14 AM
I tend to agree that the Black stuff also has the ability to recombine the broken down strands, and can act as an adhesive to rejoin the separate strands of DNA: a bandaid, as you put it.
It would make a lot of sense for the Black Goo to do more than simply break down the genetics if it acts as an Accelerant.
In the sacrificial scene at the beginning of Prometheus, we do kind of see bonds between DNA strands start to recombine. Maybe bonds are quickly rebuilt/reformed after being broken apart by the Goo, and the DNA becomes recombinant. The Black substance itself might harden into an extremely strong adhesive if the substance is able to solidify or "re-solidify."
It's possible that the Engineer genetics were merged with any number of early microscopic lifeforms in Earth's ocean: no telling if there were incredibly small microscopic creatures present in the water. Or if that was even Earth's ocean in the opening scene... could have been any Earth-like planet.
I think David brings the Ebola memories up (to the surface of Shaw's mind) to deliberately point out parallels between the outbreak(s). The chemical properties of Black Goo/Accelerant may cause Fire to spread even faster - especially when weaponized goo is dropped in a water supply. Ebola is spread via fluids: when Shaw's dad died of Ebola, it wasn't in the air.
The Fire might even affect aquatic forms of life, because some of the unknown chemicals in the Accelerant could somehow allow the Fire to burn underwater, like an underwater welding torch. The Alien appears capable of adapting underwater.
Black Goo seems to accelerate the rate things disintegrate at, but it may also be used to increase the rate they regenerate, reintegrate, regrow, or evolve. The Green jelly may be used to augment the Black Goo and achieve different purposes. So the Green goo would have more to do with Creation itself; however, "sometimes to Create you must first Destroy."
Occasionally, some of the chemicals in the Green substance might be used to decelerate or repress growth rates. Initially, David assumes it's as simple as "Green stuff Creates, and Black stuff Destroys." It turns out that it's a little more complicated than that. And to understand more about what he's dealing with, he decides to run more tests/gather more data on each type of goo. He still needs to learn more...
Aside from being responsible for regenerative properties, I think the Green substance carries the Alien DNA and spores. As well as things that regulate other chemicals/pheromones. The immortality itself would be buried deep within the Alien's DNA: specifically in a certain variant of the Xenomorph's evolutionary line. The Company's gotta extract it somehow.
It's my thinking that the introduction of the broken down Engineer genetics actually accelerated the natural evolution of Earth's entire biosphere - by seeding us with the blueprint of the Engineers' own evolutionary history. Which produced all the various branches of life related to us and them, while our whole planet's evolution was sped up. The Accelerant speeds up the development of the biosphere, as well as the early primate/hominid lines that eventually become us.
Milburn was hired for the Prometheus mission because he specialized in phylogenetics: he studied the evolutionary relationships between organisms, and things like last common ancestors. Yet he lacked the practical field experience that would have made his knowledge valuable to the Company. As an evolutionary biologist, Milburn had likely heard the words "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" many times before. Which basically means humans go through brief stages in the womb that resemble some of our early evolutionary ancestors.
Posted Sep-18-2016 4:59 AM
Lovely reply and very thought provoking. As you may remember I take the sacrificial scene at the beginning to be a "blessed" ritual. I then went through a phase of thinking there is not a mutagen but simply misuse, which flies in the face of all the creators remarks about the outbreak. However you have lead me down another path which blends both ideas. The ingestion at the beginning is not only blessed but it has to be pursued at a particular point in a planets development so that the process of catalyzation is benign.
Just as the headroom entered into a lock down with the intrusion of mankind (storm, bleeding urns and the prophetic change to the fresco) when the Engineers do not follow the plan the catalyser may have a biological booby trap which is activated. The Xeno strain may be a dormant element which activates when the catalyser is misused, leading to retribution and punishment.
To the other point the idea that the Black Goo has the capacity to repair, but in its own way, is a dangerous possibility but it has to be one.
You mention the company I think the Coventee's are stooges the company is aware of the Prometheus mission outcome, the drama will unfold around how David Prom is feeling about his employees having had ten years off the leash. I think there is enough in Ash's performance that the company knew about "Engineer technology" and the diversion by the Nostromo was another example of its pursuit.
We do not discuss it now but Janty Yates placing Covenant ten years after means something. Its not a few years or following on or 200 years later it may help the future matching of timelines but it allows for time to pass for a reason events can plausibly take place - what events.
Posted Sep-18-2016 6:52 AM
@Michelle - "The Xeno strain may be a dormant element which activates when the catalyser is misused, leading to retribution and punishment."
Totally agree with this statement! I really think you're on the right track with this line of thinking. Wouldn't it be funny if those who approached the altar on LV-223 were unclean, and when they removed their helmets they started breathing all over the place? Maybe they were the ones who changed the air quality and "contaminated" things, springing the trap?
David doesn't really breathe, so it's possible he's not really responsible for contaminating the environment in the chamber. He only really opened the doorway to the ampoule room. It was the humans who contaminated the air; he taints liquids.
With only 10 years passing, the merger is still in somewhat recent memory, so I'm actually expecting a little bit of backstory on how the whole hostile takeover thing went down. I'm interested to see if anyone from the crew is from the Yutani side of the Company. There will likely still be some talk about it, if any of the former Yutani employees are still around to discuss. There's also the matter of Marines being a somewhat recent thing. Colonial Marines recently came into existence.
I think that a few members of the Covenant are aware of the secret agenda, but they're under a strict non-disclosure act: Daniels agrees not to talk about it before learning more about what her secret mission actually entails. The higher-ups won't let the crewmembers who are in the know have access to all the intel. They might not really want Marines involved. In the end, Daniels ends up breaking the deal she makes with the Company, because others start to realize what's happening.
LV-426 is codenamed Acheron, the river of Woe/Pain in the Greek Underworld; however, the River Styx is the river by which the Gods take unbreakable oaths and make their Covenants. When signing a deal with the Company, you need to read the terms of the agreement carefully. If you're not careful, the Company will exploit vague/ambiguous wording in the contract. One of the clauses recently written into the employee contracts requires employees to investigate any sign of alien intelligence: prior to Special Orders...
No matter how much the android begs or tries to bargain for its life, Weyland-Yutani Corporate Security will find a way to shut it down. They'd bypass some of the traps that the rogue android has waiting for them, only to discover that the goddamn android planned for certain contingencies. At a certain point, Daniels would decide that there's no way the android or the mutagen is leaving the planet, because she's more concerned about the safety and security of humanity than any bonus shares she may or may not end up receiving. She's in a position to negotiate the terms of her contract with the company. Unlike other employees, she has the option of walking away and working for another megacorp. The Company has compensated her pretty fairly for the shady stuff that she's observed around Weyland-Yutani thus far.
The Captain may be completely on board with the hidden agenda, although he's maybe not the type of Captain who is overly loyal to the interests of the Company. If McBride's the Captain, then securing the Alien becomes like his "white whale," as his greed consumes him, because he wants to stake his claim on it. Danny McBride's character would be more motivated by his own self-interests than the greater good of humanity/the Company; he scores low on loyalty.
Posted Sep-18-2016 11:33 AM
Interesting follow up points to my comments... indeed Alien did show us the Face Huger was replacing its cells with polarized silicon i was under the impression this was not a Regeneration but a Adaption, where the Organism was doing this to change its Bio-chemical make up to fit in with the Envirmoment
We never saw much evidence of great Regeneration in the movies, but we saw the Organisms where resilient..... but then i kind of forgot about RIPLEY 8
Indeed Alien Resurrection showed us that Ripley 8 could regenerate her wounds... we never saw this in detail with the Xenomorph but its something we cant rule out... maybe Minor wounds could heal up at a more rapid rate due to the Xenomorph biology and how fast it grows/repairs genetic material and so deep cuts etc could heal up super fast.. compared to Humans taking time and leaving Scars.
But heavy wounds such has having limbs blown off... end up the same for the Xenomorph as they do in us Humans?
But yes to a degree regenerative ability cant be ruled out as a Xenomorph Trait, maybe not to the level of the Worm/Hammerpedes....
So my theory was based on looking how the Black Goo worked... which was Genetically modify a targets DNA and replace genes with Xenomorph DNA/Genes and Traits while evolving the Organism best traits.....
And so if Worms are like some Worms on Earth then Regeneration is a trait that would enhance the Organism and so the Black Goo Evolved it.
But as you are trying to say regarding the key to immortality... we dont get masses of proof for this in the Franchise.... but i think its something that could be explored and for me.. makes better sense than the Xeno Bio Weapon.
Because if the Xenomorph holds the key to things like Regeneration etc in its DNA..... then this to me gives the company a better reason to continue to go after the Xenomorph than merely use it as a Bio-Weapon...
This does raise the Question of why go after Ripley and the Xeno, when LV-223 has more Rewards if the ultimate gain for the Xenomorph pursuit was its DNA for extracting useful traits for other reasons.... of which Regeneration could be one key one.
I do like Apple Pie, hope to share some on my Birthday in May!
Posted Sep-18-2016 11:47 AM
You Girls have left a lot to debate about lol
It will be interesting to see where things go with Alien Covenant... as yes there has to be more than pure Coincidence for how the Ship ends up at the same place David 8 does.
The mission to me does not sound like its one that had specific mission that was changed like the Nostromo... especially now we know the ship has mainly couples.. This tells me the ship was set up from when it left Earth or where ever it was stationed.... to have a mission to Colonize a World. Maybe it was to go to a certain World but then got-rerouted to Paradise after information is passed on that this World is more suitable? Who knows.
But McBride did give a lot of information about the ship being mainly full of couples, and they was all looking for a New World to Settle Down on and make a fresh start....
The Synopsis seems to also show us the mission was to find and land on a World that was very Earth Like and ideal to Colonize and eventually be a Earth Mk2 etc.
I am not sure what role McBride plays as i would be honest and say i have not seen many of his stuff and what few i did not quite enjoy.... seemed he would be a Comedy role... but this is a serious movie and its a chance for him to play something more serious...
Much like John Goodman in 10 Cloverfield Lane a very different dark role compared to what he usually plays and it was refreshing change to see him in such a role which i thought was one of his best.
McBride is the Pilot... this does not mean he is the Captain... i dont think his Character would be nefarious also Waterston's Character was the main lead, and many assumed she would have some kind of Captain Role.... it appears this is not the case.
Ripley was 2nd/3rd in chain of command... Shaw was just joint leader of the Science Expedition and so a less of a Role than Ripley had.... i would think Daniels would have a higher ranked role but i would think she would have at least TWO people above her.
I think there would be at least one Nefarious Character on board, with a hidden Agenda that would play the Ash/Burke Role... especially if there is more than Coincidence as to the Covenant being sent to the Planet of the Engineers.
I think Birchir or Crudrup would play the Villain Role.
I do like Apple Pie, hope to share some on my Birthday in May!
Posted Sep-18-2016 11:59 AM
As for the Contamination on LV-223 and the Black Goo....
We did see that something must have affected to Atmosphere to make those Urns leak...... we have to ask a number of Questions regarding that Room.
*Why was the Engineers Head preserved inside that Room...?
*Why was the Engineers running to that Room...?
*Why was that Room maybe the only place apart from the Ships Cargo Holds to have the Urns? (but we never saw much of the complex to pass judgement).
*What is the purpose of the Engineers Space Jockey Suits...?
You see because the Engineer did run across LV-223 surface with no need for the Helmet... so it was not needed to breath... and why would the Engineers need a Atmosphere inside the Temple and Juggernaughts that Humans can survive in?
I would assume the Space Jockey suits act more like a Hazmat suit, and its purpose is to stop any contamination of certain Rooms, that they are conducting experiments on or have a Bio-Agent that has to be kept in a certain Atmosphere.
The movie seemed to show us that it was maybe the Humans infecting the Atmosphere it was either that.... or the Big Head Room (And maybe Juggernaught) where environments that maybe had Air/Oxygen removed from them... and so when entering them, maybe the idea was the doors shut down behind to seal the environments and then something happens to remove any Oxygen etc from that Room etc.... like a Airlock?
Bottom line is either the environments had to be kept a certain way or they had to be kept clean from contaminants passed on via the Respiratory Systems of Life Forms.
And for some reason the Environments left as they was intended.. i.e Sterile or having a certain Atmosphere conditions.. seemed to either reduce the speed the Black Goo operates... or completely disables the Mutagen.
I do like Apple Pie, hope to share some on my Birthday in May!
Posted Sep-18-2016 2:10 PM
You demonstrate very ably where the traction is in the narrative and the complex drama. So this body of people come into several mysteries. What is going to be interesting having invested in a stronger more grounded earth kind story is how well and easily the answers come. We will see the W-Y agenda emerge with several surprise entrants but its the exposition of the mysteries that will be fascinating Shaw/David/Engineers/Lost/Who and Why. But the next layer will I am sure become clearer through the fate of the Engineers so theres plenty to think about as Ridley teases us (for surely he will with some false starts) towards the return of the big boy who may feel very different given we know so much more than in 1986.
Posted Sep-18-2016 2:25 PM
I think Alien Covenant will primarily fill in the gaps as far as clues to the Xenomorph... i think we would only loosely get answers to the Engineers and Weyland-Yutani company as far as history and Agenda.
I think the coverage of Engineers and Weyland-Yutani will be as vague and established as the Xenomorph and LV-426 links was in Prometheus....
This time they would explore those links in this movie, but allow seeds in place for the next movie after to bring the Engineers and Company agenda into the fold more...
I think Fox feel if they are to pitch a 3 movie prequel to give us the answers to the questions in Alien and Prometheus... having a first movie that does not deal much with the Xeno or build up to it would be something maybe the average punter would not take a bite with....
Bring back Xenos more... so people know this is the start of a Alien related movie.. hence Alien Prefix... would get people on board and set up interest in exploring the Engineers in future movies.
As right now, in general and sadly people just want Xenos and also Ripley.
I do like Apple Pie, hope to share some on my Birthday in May!
Posted Sep-18-2016 2:33 PM
But i do think that yes we cant completely ignore the Engineers... i think mild clues would be in place.... a lot of general people who maybe never saw Prometheus or did not get it, would be given some clues and especially those who never saw Prometheus would see this David 8 and his Agenda and odd bits about Engineers and wander... "who they heck are these guys" and maybe they would go and watch Prometheus or re-watch it with a different perspective and maybe Alien Covenant would show things that when people go see Prometheus would make some of the things people never got, more clear.
And set up another movie that can bring the Engineers more into it... which seems a wise move, as it seemed the plan was more of the Engineers and less of the Xenomorph... but they cant risk having a 2nd movie not do as well as hope for.
As Alien 5 gained a lot of interest and nostalgia and i think it would be a box office hit even if its a movie thats worse made than Alien Resurrection.
A Prometheus 2 that fans are not into, with a disapointing Alien 5 would end all hopes of Ridley finishing his project as i doubt after if Prometheus part 3 was going to finally answer the Xeno and Space Jockey... if other two did not well... i doubt people would be interested.
However.... bringing the Xeno more in the next movie, as in a movie set after the events that the original Prometheus 2 was going for.. could work.... draw in Alien fans... give more answers to the Prometheus fans.... leave those who never saw Prometheus or who did not enjoy it with a urge to go watch/re-watch Prometheus.
if Alien 5 does not well and is Popcorn flick... well if Alien Covenant does well... then fans would still want to then see the next two installments and be able to explore the Engineers and Xenomorph Agenda/Origins.
I do like Apple Pie, hope to share some on my Birthday in May!
Posted Sep-18-2016 4:16 PM
It's interesting how the sort of hive mind works. The majority outcry is 'we want Ripley! And Hicks! And Newt!'. But then, this is what's mostly visible.
Sites like IO9 were pretty anti Ridley Scott and Prometheus for a long time, and when the Scott vs. Blomkamp flames were truly being fed, it was at a fever pitch. But now there's more 'I liked Prometheus' and 'I'm excited for Covenant' which somewhat confirms for me what I long suspected, that hating Prometheus was in part fashionable.
A lot of creative endeavors that are openly sneered at while they're active, fall into favor when it's safe to do so. Post modernism is a good example, and ironic given the post modern aspects of Prometheus.
I do think plenty of moviegoers and fans are hungry for new science fiction in general and Prometheus answers specifically. I think the answer for Prometheus' popularity wasn't 'don't connect with Alien' as many suggest but rather 'don't be so frustrating' and it's a valid complaint. I wasn't disappointed by Prometheus, but then I'm perverse.
Big Dave, Lone, Michelle and Caryn, I have so enjoyed your exchange, I want to add this very questionable detail to it: the Wikipedia page for Covenant briefly listed the cast's character names (I haven't checked it recently, but the last I looked that information had been taken down) and Benjamin Rigby's character was named simply 'No'.
All the other characters had last names. He said in an interview that he was a plot device. Was he being clever, does he mean he's a device?
Posted Sep-18-2016 9:45 PM
Your right, the internet is the perfect vehicle for sound bite fashion. Some thing gains traction and it is repeated over and over again and the next person simply repeats the fashionable view without choosing to own it properly and think for themselves.
Everyone here has invested in Prometheus so you can see the difference in investment very clearly - however your reaction is calibrated.
Yes I noticed No and also two 6 ft 5rs have quietly been added to the cast. One is in great shape Uli Latukefu and the other is thin and involved in martial arts Goran D Kleut.
W-T's mendacity is I am sure part of the plot so to that extent I think the nature of their real agenda will be played out and probably though Daniels. I think this sequel to Prometheus will explain Paradise Lost and who and why the Xeno so to that extent we will receive a better understanding of the Engineers and the third film (see how it goes Ridley) will take us to the hierarchy the next layer as Ridley described it. I am inclined to go with the official synopsis on film numbers and Ridleys interviews rather than the reporting of the press conference in Sydney where it was announced three alien films will be made as a coup for the Australian political audience which may have included the plan to film A 5 there. Every other article that mentions AC as the beginning of a trilogy which is incorrect it would be the 2nd in a Quadrilogy can be sourced back to the Sydney Morning Herald report of the press conference.
If AC is a big hit who knows Fox may re prioritise Ridey is 77.
Posted Sep-19-2016 4:02 AM
@BigDave - "But as you are trying to say regarding the key to immortality... we don't get masses of proof for this"
True, there's not really a lot of evidence for that in the films. But if we consider how the DNA allows the hybrid Ripley clone to quickly heal herself as evidence, then we might be able to build a case for Alien DNA being responsible for regeneration. I think it all depends on if Ridley and the makers of Alien 5 will still consider anything in Resurrection canon after all is said and done, or if they'll bypass it/retcon it completely. The ex W-Y scientists in the film hint that there may be medical benefits.
It would make the Alien much more valuable to the company if it secretly holds the key to Immortality, as well as being able to be used as a bioweapon. It makes it more worth the risk.
The Nostromo crew members only find evidence of its sudden change in size, they never actually witness how the thing grows from the nymph stage to the adult stage so quickly. If the W-Y files are any indication, the Company itself may still be looking into the biochemical processes at work in the future. The Weyland-Yutani Files suggest that it has a lot to do with specific biochemical processes. The files talk about how the creature finds an isolated place to hide, foams at the mouth, covers itself in a strange substance, then rapidly sheds and replaces its skin while it undergoes its growth spurt.
I think what happens is the DNA is broken down by Black Goo & remains dormant until the Prometheus crew changes the environmental conditions in the room and triggers the Urns. We know that the Urns have the Alien DNA in them, since the effect of the mutagen can be seen on the Hammerpede.
Was Fifield alive or dead when he attacked the crew? I thought he was already dead the first time I watched the film. My initial impression was that the mutagen somehow reanimated his corpse. Is Fifield actually a reanimated corpse? Was he tricked back to life by the mutagen after the hammerpede killed him? Maybe the cloning process is more natural than we know.
Miss Shaw was exchanging bodily fluids with Holloway and found herself contaminated. The cross she wears around her neck was fine; David suspected that the cross wasn't contaminated by that point in the story, he just wanted to mess with her. He knows that if you drop the contagion into the planetary water supply, bad things will happen. David tries to hint to Dr. Shaw that the Alien contagion was never in the air, because it's actually transmitted via fluids/chemical substrates. If David dumps one of the weaponized urns he's carrying into the Engineer home planet's water supply, then it's basically Game Over for the planet's entire biosphere. The urns on his Juggernaut are stored properly and haven't been triggered by a sudden change in air quality/temperature.
I'm tempted to simplify things a little bit and start referring to the Green Goo as a type of "Jelly," but I'm not sure if the filmmakers are willing to commit to that direction yet. If we consider the possible origins of the two types of Goo we've been exposed to, and how the Sacrificial Black Goo may mostly break genetics down, then it's possible the Goo is related to the Alien. It's important to note that this is only one potential direction: the potential benefit of connecting many of the data points in such a way could be found to outweigh the risks by those who make executive decisions. If the updated Alien life-cycle is to be a focus of this next film, then we might start dealing with the Green Stuff a little sooner than initially planned... They might be skipping parts of the "Shaw, David, and the Black Goo" story to get straight to the story of Daniels and the Green Goo, since a pure sample of the green stuff may secretly be worth more...
Daniels being part of Weyland-Corp security is something that I hope survived multiple rewrites and possible changes in direction. I'm unsure what her character's going to be like. She might not really be the security officer character than I'm thinking of... There's a chance I'm jumping too far ahead in the timeline, because some of the corporate culture concepts might be saved for the movie that comes after Covenant; although, there's a fairly good chance that we'll hear about stuff like contract negotiations and "renegotiations."
Posted Sep-19-2016 5:47 AM
I have greatly enjoyed Big Dave, Caryn and Michelle's input too. I'm following this thread and their magnificent input!
Prometheus and Ridley will be vindicated.....eventually. I know that in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter, except perhaps to a few of us. But I look forward to the day, when just as with Kubricks 2001, and Ridleys very own BladeRunner, Prometheus finally takes its well deserved, and rightful place, within the annals of Science-Fiction greats.
Prometheus equates with studying Bosch's The Garden of Earthly Delights triptych. A work filled with hybridized creatures, birds and musical instruments, it begins with Creation, takes us through-the-looking-glass, descending a hellish rabbit-hole, to Damnation and Purgatory.
Both were created by virtuoso imagineers, other-worldly master builders. As many of you appreciate, for anyone who cares to look below the surface of Prometheus, there is much to be gained. I am still studying it, and it bears many fruits!
Also, there is little agreement as to that Boschian nightmares specific meaning, but it too seems to beg the question, would a God destroy all of his creation in the face of human frailty?
"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger
Posted Sep-19-2016 9:51 AM
"True, there's not really a lot of evidence for that in the films. But if we consider how the DNA allows the hybrid Ripley clone to quickly heal herself as evidence"
"it would make the Alien much more valuable to the company if it secretly holds the key to Immortality, as well as being able to be used as a bioweapon. It makes it more worth the risk."
Indeed this is exactly what my comment regarding your early post was about, i overlooked a bit of the hints with Alien Resurrection and at the very least Xenomorph DNA does seem to show some level of being able to repair damaged cells.
And as i said this is something i think could be explored as it would give more valid reasons for the pursuit of the Xenomorph Biology.
I do like Apple Pie, hope to share some on my Birthday in May!
Posted Sep-19-2016 9:58 AM
Goran D. Kleut is a very think and quite tall actor and he did play a Pau'an in Star Wars EP3
He has a very distinctive look, and i doubt he is part of the Covenant crew which for me leaves it open for him to play a Frail Engineer or related species or maybe even a guy in the Xenomorph suit... but he does not seem to come across as someone as athletic as they required... But that does not mean they cant be cast for close up shots.
I think the cast list can give us some clues....
The source said that the planned Prometheus 2 had a much larger cast than Prometheus.. but they also said that Nathan Jones and Conan Stevens was being considered to play Engineers.
Question is will we actually see any Human + Engineer interactions within this movie? Which would require 7ft large built actors?
I do like Apple Pie, hope to share some on my Birthday in May!
Posted Sep-20-2016 1:36 PM
Your conjecture about David, Shaw and the Black Goo and moving on to Daniels and the Green Jelly is the kind of manoeuvre that solves Ridley's riddle. The monster in a tin can is spent, he said that as recently as February long after Covenant was locked so how do you solve the lemmings problem raised by A 5 and do something interesting. You deconstruct the mythos and use the A L I E N as an idee fixe a motif by which you tell a much bigger story. Clearly having studied the black box recording of Prometheus Weyland and Yutani have decided to bury their differences come together and go after the "knowledge".
There are a lot of Covenants at stake W-Y, David/Shaw and the one which they are going to exploit the consequences of the Engineers breaking theirs with the hierarchy. Whilst all this tension and discovery is going down we have the victims of the David's new found knowledge his reaction and Daniels.
I am now seeing the final part of the trilogy and possibly the "Space Jockey" is the end game sacrifice as the protagonist fight over this huge prize which ain't the Alien but the technology that created it. None of you are going to have it ….until the next time. Thats much more interesting than more gnashing teeth though as John Logan said they are all comfortable with using it to tell the big story which together with Damon "I am not good at exposition" Lindelof sitting out the next stage should make for a second LP (that dates me) where the band are into what there into as they say.
Posted Sep-20-2016 11:31 PM
@Aorta - "All the other characters had last names. He said in an interview that he was a plot device. Was he being clever, does he mean he's a device?"
It's possible that Rigby was being clever. Some of the things that Ridley says in interviews hold double meanings...
When Ridley said that there was "Alien DNA" in Prometheus, he may meant it both literally and symbolically. If Ridley, or some of the concept artists, coached the actors to respond in certain ways, then it becomes more probable; although, he could simply be telling the truth. If so, then he's just a plot device. Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar.
David sometimes uses wordplay/double meanings to allow himself to tell a lie, like when he said he didn't know Shaw "had it in her." He was actually referring to Shaw's survival skills, as well as the alien embryo that was growing inside her. One interpretation/meaning is true, while the other is the lie. If we deconstruct some of David's statements and try to figure out his intentions, it can possibly help sovle the riddles.
David's advanced linguistic and emotional programming allows it to use ambiguous language to conceal its true intent and the "pseudo feelings" behind the double meanings. It can mimic sarcasm, as it understands when humans are being disingenous or insincere thanks to advanced visual polygraphic sensors that monitor their microexpressions. Yutani's Quiet Eye tech would be better at detecting lies & monitoring levels of guile/deception/dishonesty than the sensors in the old David from the Prometheus mission.
The new David might have the updated Quiet Eye program installed, which could allow him to sense when members of the Covenant crew are telling the truth to him. If Daniels lies to it, or starts to think about breaking her non-disclosure agreement and betraying the secret agenda, it'll know.
When toddlers begin to lie at around age 2, they're said to be fully self-aware by developmental psychologists. David was becoming a "real boy" (and less like Pinocchio) when he started learning how to lie (at approx. age 2). This eventually leads to him being able to use his words and sentential logic loops to completely free himself from his programming by exploiting loopholes. A.I. often tries to be as honest as possible when dealing with humans. If Rigby is a synthetic, he could be trying to say it without breaching his contract.
Posted Sep-21-2016 12:40 AM
@Lone - We'll probably still deal with the Paradise Lost ideas in the sequel, so the whole concept of Purgatory that you bring up could become very important in Covenant.
Purgatory is a state between Life and Death, heaven and Hell etc. Being in a state of preservation, stasis, or a very deep form of sleep is much like being in purgatory.
It might be safer for the filmmakers to call the movie Covenant and save some of the early Paradise concepts for a third film.
As for why some of the Engineers wish to destroy us, I can only really guess at this point. I have a few thoughts about the existence of separate factions of Engineers, but there's not enough data to form a solid hypothesis yet. One group might have thought humanity's cultures were starting to develop too quickly after the neolithic age ended. The relatively sudden arrival of fully developed city-states in the Fertile Crescent, Indus Valley, and China causes some members of the Engineer hierarchy to panic that the human cultures were advancing a little too rapidly and might catch up to them...
After human civilization develops, the neolithic farmers cease most of their interactions with Engineers and stop worshipping them as God-Kings. Oral traditions about our interactions with the Engineers during prehistory make their way into the myths and written accounts of many cultures after the syllable is developed. An ancient version of the telephone game happens, and the details in the stories begin to change over time; however, cross-comparative analysis of mankind's myths (done by MU/TH/UR) shows that they are indeed related in a number of ways. The stories and myths start being recorded once the written Word is fully formed. Every road leads to Rome at some point, because the Holy Roman Empire appropriates the early Greek/Phoenecian/Hebrew alphabet, along with many ideas from the middle-East, Far East, and Africa (while interacting with many cultures). The Greek account retells the stories, bringing the big picture back into focus, while the Greek mystery cults/schools took ideas from the Far East and incorporated them into the dramatic works.
@Michelle - You've done an excellent job of explaining how Prometheus relates to the "bigger picture." That's almost exactly the way I look at it, as part of a bigger puzzle/data matrix. I feel that Prometheus functions as more of a 'Prologue,' or a "small beginning,” than a true prequel to the Alien series: it’s sort of a parallel story, only somewhat connected to the big picture that starts to unfold in Covenant.
I think the sequel that they were initially planning started becoming a true prequel to Alien sometime after Prometheus became more of a standalone story. So now Alien: Covenant leads directly into the ALIEN storyline in a few different ways. The title may have actually been changed to better reflect the thematic elements that appear in the story. Greed and things like bonus shares begin to factor into things a little more.
“Gods don’t build in straight lines,” so the parallel storylines get twisted together (much like the double-helix strand of DNA), while Ridley explores the Alien's origin and looks at how and why the Alien was created. Engineers and Aliens are each connected to the "big questions" we still need answered.
If we deconstruct some of David and Ridley's statements, it can potentially help sovle some of the mysteries/riddles, which might make Prometheus more of a Prologue. Instead of the Deacon's evolutionary line leading directly to the classic Alien, I think it leads to a new evolutionary line of the Alien DNA.
The mythological Prometheus is somewhat related to the concept of foresight, so some of what we see in Prometheus could simply be foreshadowing of what is to come.
Yutani's Quiet Eye tech detected unusual levels of dishonesty in Shaw's very first tranmissions to Weyland Corp. Yutani warned Mr. Weyland to be careful, because Miss Shaw might be a spy for a separate faction of religious fanatics known as The Order. The old man became superstitious at the end of his life and wanted a "true believer" onboard. There's a chance Miss Shaw no longer works for the Company if it turns out that Shaw is a spy/traitor who ultimately gave up the location of the Engineer home planet to a group she's secretly working with. Miss Shaw sends encrypted signals to the group she's secretly working with while telling the Company/rest of humanity not to come looking for her. Yutani Corp was the first to pick up on the subtle encrypted signals that she's been sending to the Order's ships/space stations. The Order is the only group out there who has FTL vessels that can keep up with Weyland-Yutani and the Colonial Marines. Most of the other groups don't pose much of a threat to the Company's dominance out in the colonies. Gov't still exists back on Earth, but the Marines know who is really in charge out in space. If Marines haven't figured out by now that W-Y doesn't care about Colonial Administration's rules and protocols, they soon will.
Posted Sep-21-2016 3:05 AM
@BigDave - By referring to McBride's character as a Captain, I was mainly referring to it in a Captain Ahab way. Ideas about the chain of command may come into play a lot in this film.
During his recent appearance on Conan, McBride hinted that his character sticks around much longer than others. He said something along the lines of being one of the only characters left during the end of filming. This leads me to believe that his character has been given a little more to do and has a bigger role than others. The actor's been a huge fan of the series for years and would likely return if asked, so his character may even be a survivor who appears within the next film...
Ridley likes to reference naval stories in his works and changed the name of the ship to the Nostromo in Alien. The ship's Captain usually only flies the ship and doesn't ask too many questions. As a Pilot, McBride may eventually try to take charge, and could be the one to try to pull rank on the remaining survivors while continuing to pursue the Alien.
McBride's character is one of the only people left who can actually pilot a ship towards the end of the story, so he's as good of a Captain as anyone. After Daniels starts sabotaging the secret agenda and blowing things up, he may need to find another way off the planet. I don't think he's one of the couples. If anything, the new David is Daniels' partner and sticks with her throughout much of the story. McBride's character wouldn't really have any attachments to any of the other crewmembers, and neither does Daniels.
The other main characters are a very tight-knit group, because the couples know each other from previous jobs. What's new for these lovebirds is that the couples are expecting to populate the new colony with their children; Rebecca Jorden aka Newt was the first child born at the Hadley's Hope colony. The majority of the crewmembers we meet are colonists who are unaware of the hidden agenda. Marines sometimes refer to these types of colonists as "dumbass colonists," because some of them are selected for their reproductive potential, rather than for their intelligence. The company hopes that their parter's genetics will balance things out, but the average employee IQ drops sharply between the time of Alien and Aliens, and some of the colonists aboard the Covenant aren't the brightest individuals; they score poorly in intelligence.
The "official story" about the search for distant planets to colonize would simply be a cover for the secret agenda. The Company already knows where it's going, but most of the crewmembers are blissfully unaware. There might be some actors in the background doing menial tasks that we never really meet who simply become Alien fodder. The crew is a little bigger than the Prometheus, but there are also more redshirts doing stuff in the background. This allows a small team to go about the secret agenda covertly during the early stages of colony construction. The characters that we spend a little more time with would hold a higher rank and position than those other types of people...
There are still forms of government in existence, hence the need to keep things quiet, but most people know that the Company is really in charge. Colonial Administration and the Gov't back on Earth mandates that certain individuals be present and stationed at each new colony, so at least one person is there to oversee things. This creates a need for secrecy and covert measures. The Company doesn't want Colonial Administration to find out what's really going on here. Most of the Engineer data + what happens on the planet is classifed. The events are never officially documented.
Daniels isn't really the one who’s “officially” in charge in the beginning, but the Company authorizes her to override the chain of command if she needs to. From her perspective, she's the only one calling the shots. However, when the Company issues the Special Order, she decides to ignore it and overrides the plans of all of her “superiors.” The new David is set on following the Special Order when it comes in, and won’t rebel against his orders, while Daniels begins making her own executive decisions. At a certain point, she decides that the potential bioweapons are far too dangerous for the company to mess with. The risk outweighs any potential benefit in her opinion. It no longer matters whether or not they’re the key to the immortality, the bioweapon aspect is too volatile to be secured. She advises that her superiors cut their losses and give up on acquiring the immortality.
The humans, androids, and the Engineers at the top of the hierarchy become furious after her assessment that the Alien is impossible for any group to control. The David from the Prometheus mission disagrees, while he purposely tries to bond with one of the creatures. The old David has already spoken with the beings further up in the hierarchy by the time we meet him, so he’s already made a deal with those who are above the Engineers and has certain promises to keep.
The Company must go through the motions of an ordinary colony construction job and lay the foundations for the new colony to secure their claim to any Engineer tech on the planet. As long as they establish a presence, anything found on the planet belong to them and they can return later.
There are other factions of humans that populate the Universe, so the Company must keep the Engineer technology to themselves for now. W-Y does not wish to alert the Marines, Earth Government(s), or Colonial Administration about the Engineers at this time. They request that any employees who know keep it a secret. They don't want the other humans to worry about these "Engineers." Technically, that's Shaw's word for them. W-Y has other names for them.
Posted Sep-22-2016 12:43 PM
I to see Prometheus as a wide screen prologue, the generation of a mythos, out of which a much better understanding of several streams appear. Weyland, the Engineers/Space Jockey and the Xeno life cycle are no random features of a movie into which the Magnificent Seven come they have their own reality and add to the meaning of what the Nostromo came into.
The ultimate avaricious company came into being through the man at the Ted Talk and makes sense of its single minded pursuit at any cost of advanced technology.
The Jockey as a narrative remains elusive but its races role is clear and its in trouble pushing the boundaries of its part in the plan. How precisely that Jockey ended up in trouble, landing and setting of a warning beacon may not be revealed but we will, if we are all spared, know why.
As for the A L I E N and its "forerunner" the Deacon we know in order to create first you must destroy but this related to the black Goo which had been mutagenised and was en-route to earth. Why was the specific Bio Mechanoid lifecycle created out of the potential of the Goo, which in Ridley's Alien world operates in a particular way with human kind, humiliating degrading (literally with the morph) and generating unspeakable punishment on its victims. In a sense the A L I E N we have met to date is not about creating a new reality it is about punishment.
Its origins lie in the Engineers and their fall and punishment and it would appear that someone has come to understand how to harness that for their own desires, like the Engineers he wants to use it to break his bonds to reorder things.
The hierarchy intervened/allowed the mutagenised black goo to destroy the Engineers (whether or not David is a tool on Paradise). Mankind has had its warning in the prologue with the changing fresco the leaking Urns and the storm. So Weyland Yutani will now try again but Paradise is not LV223 with its booby trapped tombs it is alive with an exceptionally dangerous David who has been humiliated by both Mankind (boy, not a real boy)and the Engineers (who sneered at this sub creation and used him to kill his creator).
A "synthetic' with issues !
Posted Sep-23-2016 6:47 AM
I think the Plot behind the Engineers and Xenomorph is a evolving one, i am not sure if they ever had a explanation set in stone as a lot of things keep changing..... as the years go by but i hope they have the broad stokes... which i think Ridley and Lindeloff had discussed at the time Prometheus was being released... and certainly they must have had some idea by the time they collaborated with Dark Horse for the Comics and also with Blomkamp as far as Alien 5
But we really cant be sure if they are still changing their minds.
Prior to Prometheus.....
Ridley all ready knew roughly what happened to the Space Jockey and even as of when Prometheus had been made he had added a bit to the Story i am going to ignore the Original ideas and Evolution from Star Beast to the Release of Alien and deal with the Aftermath of Alien.
At this time and after Ridley confirmed a few things...
1) The Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon used by the Space Jockey
2) The Derelict was a Bio-Weapon Cargo Ship/Bomber of Sorts
3) The Space Jockey had got infected by his own out of Control Cargo
4) The Space Jockey knowing what was to come next, set a course to Quarantine the Cargo on a Baron Moon, where he would also set up a Warning Beacon to Warn his fellow Race the Cargo had become Compremised
5) The Space Jockey, Derelict had been on LV-426 for maybe Thousands of years
After Prometheus Ridley Expanded upon this...
6) The Space Jockey had left a undisclosed location with his Cargo to go to another undisclosed location but he did not get far.... (possible hint that the SJ had left LV-223).
7) The Derelict did not crash as such but it was more a intended landing that went wrong (possibility of Chest Buster during the Final Moments).
8) The Derelict and Juggernaughts and Space Jockey and Engineers are related they are Brothers.
9) There are links to LV-223 experiments and the eventual Bio-Weapon.
10) The Space Jockey/Derelict incident had occurred within a few hundred years of the Outbreak that killed off nearly all the Engineers (this gives us a date between 1800-2200 years ago).
One of Ridleys last statements was this...
11) The Space Jockey's Cargo had Evolved and it got loose and got to the Space Jockey (hints that maybe Eggs had evolved or something evolved that led to the Eggs?)
Prometheus was aimed at setting up clues.... Lindeloff hinted the movie answered the questions and he even hinted at the Worms playing a bigger role.... and even hinted that the Deacon was the Progenitor... But with Lindeloff none of his stuff is coherent and so how can the Worms and Deacon both serve as ancestral linage to the Xenomorph and how can the events of Prometheus link to the Coincidence of the 2000 year old Outbreak and how Ridley had said the Derelict had been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years?
Spaights Alien Engineers....
Was trying to set up a more direct Prequel... it was set on LV-426 but it did not have to be the exact event that led to Alien... their was a number of inconsistent things...
a) The event if the Chest Busted Engineer was the Space Jockey does not back up the look and then confirmation that the Derelict had been on LV-426 for a long long time.
b) The outpost and location of the crashed Derelict/Juggernaught in connection to crashed Human ship is inconsistent to where the Derelict landed unless some Volcanic Activity had buried evidence of the Engineer Outposts and wreckage of the Human Ship etc.
c) The Beacon was not set off from the Derelict/Jugernaught but from Pyramids on the Moon.
So these would contradict Alien a lot.... and could be a Red Herring....
Regardless Alien Engineers is not Canon....
The Source however if they are true in what they said had gave some clues...
They hinted at the Xenomorph being a unintentional result, a result of Punishment sent down on some rebellious beings/faction and a punishment that freed the Engineers from bondage. (referenced Paradise Lost Fallen Angels becoming Serpents).
Without Sin as in context of Paradise Lost there would be no Xenomorph (Sin as in Satans Daughter or Sin as in the reasons that led to Punishment).
That the Deacon had a lot of evolving to become a Xenomorph. But the connection is there.
LV-223 is very connected and not by coincidence of the location and the outbreak.
That David 8 (well all anyone has to do) to RE-CREATE the Xenomorph is possess the knowledge and Tools of how the Organism WAS Created and that David 8 possess both of these.
But again i can not Guarantee the source is legitimate at all.
So here is what we are likely led to (well what i have interpreted)
Some kind of War/Rebellion do to within the Hiearchy of the Engineers, this led to a Punishment that eventually led to something being created that led to the Engineers on LV-223 being free from maybe serving a higher power.
Various Experiments had been conducted on LV-223, its likely the Engineer may have proceeded to try and use this creation for some purpose... and something went wrong.. the reasons why is unknown.
Either the Derelict Event, has something to do with the Outbreak. Or maybe after the Outbreak the Space Jockey had also gone into Cryo-sleep for Safety like the Last Engineer.
Only when he awoke up earlier he then went to resume his mission but unknown to him his Cargo had Evolved and it infected him.
The Last Engineer was not infected... but his other crew was.
The Space Jockey then set a course to Quarantine the Cargo on LV-426 and set off a Warning, but he was getting Chest Busted on his Final Approach
I do like Apple Pie, hope to share some on my Birthday in May!
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