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PARADISE CITY

PARADISE CITY

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BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-10-2021 7:21 AM

I am NOT sure if we have Discussed in Depth the City on Planet 4, it seems a LARGE Place with the HANGER being the Central Point (other Point of Interest the Cathedral) the Scale of these is HUGE.

A lot of Fans seemed Disappointed with the City and seemed to think our Engineers were Portrayed as being well like Ancient Humans from Thousands of Years Ago.

They seem to think there was a LACK of Technology on this World, apart from the Docking Ship and Hanger.

However those who LOOK at it closer will NOTICE that these Buildings are NOT as Ancient Looking as say 500-1000BC.  We do-not get any CLOSE UP of the Buildings but they do seem to have Technology such as Solar Power, Many of these Buildings also look like SKYSCRAPERS.

So its NOT a Case that they Live in Stone Buildings/Huts with NO kind of Technology (Apart from the Ships/Docking Bay etc).

It does seem that they SEEM to USE more Ancient Tools for Certain Tasks, but their Lighting etc seems to be Technology.

The way the Engineers Dress seems to imply a Basic Clothing Necessity and so things like Fashion are NOT in anyway Important to them but Practicality is, and so these Engineers seem to Live a Ritualistic and Basic Life, like say a Monks meets Amish People.

But their Buildings seem more Technologically Advanced than those on Earth even Hundreds of Years ago.

I know some may have Expected a HR Giger Inspired Bio-Mechanical World, but the MAIN PLOT with our Engineers are a Race of Creators who had Interacted with Mankind over Thousands of Years and our Ancient Buildings were LIKELY based off what the Engineers had Built but maybe with a Lack of Technology.  Again some of the Buildings look more Modern than say the Bronze and Iron Age.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

21 Responses to PARADISE CITY

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-10-2021 7:38 AM

Here is a Larger Version of the Banner.

Here is some of the Concept Work and so those Pillars with the Statues on are between 80-110M in Height and so some of those Buildings (Not Inc the Cathedral) are like 200-400M in Height.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1260 XPAug-10-2021 7:54 AM

To me it comes down to:

What were Elizabeth and David trying to find? The Engineers homeworld or just some living Engineers? 

Did the ship automatically take them to planet 4...or did David plot the course?

Planet 4 could be an outpost or a family home....Immortal beings should have enormous families. Planet 4 could be a summer home for all we know...their sparse 'cabin in the woods'.

If my family were immortal...I'd have billions of years to ac***ulate storage sheds, space ships, bunch of stuff....my junk would probably cover the planet! lol!

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-10-2021 9:17 AM

I think what we see with Planet 4 is the Home to the Engineers, However this is maybe NOT the ONLY such Home, it is LIKELY the Engineers have been to MANY WORLDS and while they may have Seeded Humanoid Life on Many Worlds i do think the Engineers would also Populate other Worlds.

Could David had taken Dr Shaw to another WORLD? Maybe it Certainly is a Coincidence that Paradise is SO CLOSE to Earth.  But this was just for Plot Convenience to get more Humans to Arrive (The Covenant Ship).

The Reason that David had made this Journey is that Dr Shaw wanted to go to where the Engineer had Informed our David where he came from... which David had said we would call Paradise.  I think Fans seem to be Caught Up to think that Paradise is Heaven and so its where the IMMORTAL GODS would be.

But in Context to the Engineers Plot, even from Inception we are NOT dealing with a IMMORTAL RACE, a Race who wanted to Extend their Lives then YES... a Race who may want to become IMMORTAL then YES.

Something we to Consider is the Engineers (both LV-223 and Planet 4) are LIKELY to NOT be the TOP LAYER of the Creation Cake.

Planet 4 is maybe where the Engineers (or just those Planet 4 kind if they wish to Explore it Further) had Originated from.

Biblically then Paradise is the Location of the Garden of Eden, which is the Cradle of Civilization, it is a Walled City were Adam/Eve where Created and Watched Over by the Cherubim Angels.

And so in that Context then Paradise is NOT where GOD comes from or Resides. And so if WE come from the Engineers, then in the Mythos of Creation then its likely Planet 4 is where say Adam/Eve came from who could be the FIRST of the Engineers (Planet 4 kind).  And so those who Created the Engineers would come from somewhere ELSE.

Planet 4 has a LOT in Common with the Garden of Eden we seem to have a Planet where the Inhabitants are Confined to just a SINGLE Location... this CITY. Just as Adam/Eve were Confined to the Garden of Eden.

The other Aspect of Paradise in Mythos/Religion is a Place that our Gods would Dwell and were the Worthy/Honorable would be able to LIVE FOREVER.  In some Mythos/Religion this means they will be Joined Time to Time by their Gods, in other its just a Place there WORTHY SOULS will END UP.

But in Context to the Franchise we can-not get Drawn to ANY Specific Religion or Mythos and to NOT take it too Literal, and so NOW that Dr Shaw is Dead, she is NOT going to AWAKEN in Paradise and be Greeted by Christ. And so instead we have to look at COMMON THEMES and take them as HOW they have been Interpreted by Ancient Cultures.

And so in that Context the Engineers likely SEED various Worlds, they go to Interact and Visit their Creations and those that are DEEMED to be WORTHY may see some of them TAKEN AWAY and to Planet 4 to then Mix their Genetics into the Gene-pool on Planet 4.

This would FIT with how RS had Indicated that while there are Many Different Races of Human (Skin Colors and other Slight Differences from Continent to Continent) he said WHY cant the same be for the Engineers. He also said the Engineers are NOT a Race but a Civilization.

The Engineer Culture is one of Basic Needs, and so they LIVE just like Monks do and the Amish, in those Cultures they SURVIVE... they dont NEED to have the Internet, Smart Phones, TV's, Consoles or other Forms of Entertainment... their Culture seems to see NO NEED for these things.

But it would seem they would USE some Technology for where its NEEDED in Regards to their CULT/RELIGION and way of LIFE.  And so they LIKELY have some Technology (seems Evidence of this) that can Generate Power that they would USE to Light/Heat up their Homes etc.  Maybe Provide Clean Water? (But they maybe also USE some Primitive Methods too).

They likely Generate Power and Technology to Protect their World?  Maybe to Effect their Climate?  The Earlier Idea was they had Technology that had Acted to Protect and Shield the Planet and Act like some Cloaking Technology where their World can remain HIDDEN unless you arrive within its Location.

The Engineers could have MANY such Worlds... when  i look at the Hall of Heads then it kind of Reminds me that THIS PLACE is a Meeting Place of the Various Elders, like where you would HOST like a G7 or G8 Summit on Earth.  And so Each of those Elders/Heads could have came from their OWN Place in the Galaxy and they Arrive to Planet 4 from Time to Time to have Meetings.

PS: so to go back to Adam and Eve, i guess what i am saying is IF they had NEVER SINNED then they would have Bore Children and Grand Children and SO ON and SO ON!

Who would have been Allowed to Remain in the Garden of Eden/Walled City, and likely a Civilization would have Formed in the Garden that is Watched Over by Gods Protector Angels (Cherubim) and where GOD could Visit from Time to Time.

And so Adam and Eves Kingdom could ONE day had become like the CITY on Planet 4 and i think its to look at those Engineers on Planet 4 being like Adam and Eve if they had NOT gone and Sinned...

Or as their Replacements to Live in Paradise who have NOT gone and Sinned against their Creator.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Captain Cold

OvomorphMember65 XPAug-10-2021 3:14 PM

I think the creatures on planet 4/paradise are a sub-creation of the engineers, similar to humans and (possibly) the space jockeys. The real home(s) of the engineers probably have millions if not billions of cities, and most likely high defense. I mean, david was allowed there with his ship 100% undisturbed. And they "engineers" looked like they were waiting for someone to come back. I think that david and shaw were trying to find the home planet of the engineers but found planet4/paradise instead. I talked about this in other threads if you want to go into more details on the "sub creation"

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1260 XPAug-10-2021 5:38 PM

Yeah. Planet 4 is extremely underwhelming if it is their homeworld. Easily wiped out by a single juggernaut!?...No this was attempt to end the Engineers story line.

If they originated on planet 4,  then I'm okay with the understated design. 

 

 

 

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-11-2021 5:47 AM

Yeah i think in Context to the PLOT then it would seem that the Engineers are just a Sub-Creation of something or someone ELSE we have NOT yet Seen?

Or Regardless this could be WHERE the Engineers had Originated from... this does-not mean that they have NOT gone and SET-UP other Colonies on other Worlds.

Regarding as to HOW Easy it was for David to do the Damage.. well its a Plot Convenience.  And the Writers seem to NOT give much Thought to Explain anything to make Sense.

The Covenant Crew had been Surprised that the Planet was NEVER picked up on any Surveys, this could IMPLY the Planet is HIDDEN by something, and so we are talking a Cloaking Tech more like STEALTH than say Klingon Birds of Prey ;)

There could be Technology on the Planet that is able to do this.... (Implied in the Earlier Drafts)

The Docking Scorpion Ship is Described as Border Control and so its likely that David was able to do something to gain Entry to Planet 4 (they seem to have NO kind of Intercept Technology but i can Explain this after).  We see that the Juggernaught seemed to Head to the Hanger where it was MET with the Docking Ship which then seemed to be Attempting to Dock with the Juggernaught.  You would think that the Docking Ship should be able to TAKE FULL CONTROL over the Juggernaught or Disable its Ability to Drop its Cargo.

The Engineers were SHOCKED to see the Ship had BEGAN to Bombard them... this Implies the Following.

*They NEVER EVER would Expect that their OWN would EVER do such a Thing!

*The Juggernauts either are NOT Permitted and NEVER go to Planet 4 with any Cargo or..... the JUGGERNAUT has a Different ROLE than as a Bomber.

*The Docking Ship should be able to Deactivate the Ships, but somehow our David found away around this.

*The Engineers are so NAIVE that they Control and keep Eye on their Creations and it NEVER EVER would occur to them that WITHOUT the Help/Knowledge Passed by the Engineers then all their Creations remain at a Technological Level that Earth was Thousands of Years ago... and THUS what a HUBRIS that was for them!

I think the Last Point is a Valid one and maybe WHY they dont have Many Protective Measures because they ASSUME that ONLY their own Kind has the Technology to Traverse the Stars and their STEALTH TECH that Hides their World from being DETECTED is GOOD ENOUGH to Protect them.

Another Interesting thing is the Bombardment seemed to be HITTING some kind of Invisible Shield... but this FAILED..... a Explanation for this could be that David had learned the Engineers Tech/Software and was able to make a Virus/Hack that then would DEACTIVATE the Protective Systems.

This becomes a Problem if we look at the Deleted Scene and see the Hanger has Juggernaughts and we have to ASK.... WHY has David NOT gone to take them?

The Answer has to be they have been Deactivated... and the Logical Solution would be that the Destruction/Damage to the Scorpion Docking Ship had Rendered it USELESS and this SHIP is what is NEEDED in order to Activate the Juggernauts on that Planet... 

Of-course when we watch ONLY the Theatrical Cut, we cant Conclude there are other SHIPS on this World so we could ASSUME that David has NO options to Leave.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1260 XPAug-11-2021 4:42 PM

*They NEVER EVER would Expect that their OWN would EVER do such a Thing!

.....

 

Yeah, Planet 4 is probably not a military target and doesn't offer much for pirates. Just a higher learning center. I live near a military base and don't expect any of the aircraft to dive bomb the runway.

I could see asteroid/comet protection for when they hibernate.

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-12-2021 5:19 AM

It would seem those on Planet 4 go about Living their Day to Day Lives, it seems this CITY can Hold over a Million Engineers and it appears they ONLY inhabit the CITY (maybe there are some Engineers out on the Planet in VERY SMALL Numbers we just dont know).  And so IF these Engineers are like US and they can Procreate (which they seem to be able to) then IF they have been on Planet 4 for Hundreds of Thousands of Years of even Tens of Thousands of Years, then you have to Wonder about POPULATION BOOM!  We are nearly at 7.8B Now, and we HIT the ONE BILLION mark about 200 or so Years ago.

I Guess if we look at our Ancient Past then from when we had 100 Million to 250 Million it was Quite a Large Time Frame.   Also the Engineers may have a Culture that Restricts the Number of Off-Spring, maybe when they GET to a Certain Age they are TAKEN AWAY to then Self Sacrifice to Create New Life.

And we cant RULE-OUT that Certain Intervals then Ships will take Numerous Engineers to Migrate to other Worlds.  We also cant ASSUME that their Ships are MADE for just TWO Reasons... to SEED and Destroy...Certainly as FAR as the Horrors of LV-223.....  Nope!  I think the Juggernauts can have Many Functions, i also think it makes more SENSE that they are the Replacement for the Pebble Ships.

so YES maybe the Juggernauts are Military and the Engineers are Welcoming back the Military Folk.... but the Hanger had a Number of Juggernauts that were Parked in it.... and so maybe they DONT go and Expect their own Military to Bomb them...

I think we cant Overlook those Statues that Surround the Hanger, they make Little Sense for a Military Hanger, but Plenty if the Ships are USED to take Engineers to be Sacrificed to Create Life like the Pebble Ship was shown doing.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Captain Cold

OvomorphMember65 XPAug-14-2021 1:52 AM

I mean, "plot" could or could not be an excuse for that. However you are right about the statues, it looks like the place was used for a sacrifice/experiment. If we look at the engineers from prometheus and covenant, they have significant  differences 

 

Alien Franchise WebpageWhy Alien: Covenant is one long apology for Prometheus – but ends up  validating it

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-14-2021 8:41 AM

The Statues are like the Buddha Offering Statues (other Cultures had Statues of Offering)  Those in Alien Covenant and thus in a Offering Pose, they seem to HOLD a Cup/Bowl like the Sacrificial Scene.

The other Statues are of Engineers, and they are NOT the same Engineer but all Different.  I think the Logical Explanation is that Juggernauts will come to Planet 4 from Time to Time, and then when they do its a SIGN of a Sacrificing the Chosen!

For them it may seem a Honor to Sacrifice yourself so that you can CREATE LIFE and you LIVE ON in that Life.

From the Shooting Script (or Script it was based off) .... but the Dialog was CUT!

Ridley Scott had said its like Mayan Cultures in that they would Choose a Sacrifice they would LIVE as a Prince for a Year and then be Sacrificed to the Gods to for the Benefit of their Culture.

So if we take all of that and look at Planet 4, then if these Engineers will SELECT a Sacrifice from Time to Time, and then a Juggernaught will Arrive to take them away to be Sacrificed....   These Engineers are Honored to do this and they are kind of Immortalized in that their Death will Create  and so "Let your body become the dirt. Your blood become the waters. And may your soul become their way back to us"

If these CHOSEN then get a Statue Erected in their Image so they can be Remembered Forever and Immortalized in that way, then THIS would Explain those Statues around the Plaza that Circle it and the Center is the Hanger with those Offering Statues.

Thats NOT to say this is the Case... its just HOW the Clues seem to me.

Regarding the Differences....... YES that has been a Problem for some, but then as i said in other Threads, maybe the LV-223 Engineers are a Sub-Creation?

If we look at Bladerunner and its PLOT then the Replicants are mainly USED as Expendable beings, they will Perform Tasks that can be Dangerous to Humans and a lot of TOIL....   they are NOT really Human and so if they DIE its not Important.

If your Culture at some Point thought that to Sacrifice your OWN kind is Barbaric and against Human Rights... then you go OK lets Create a Humanoid Clone who is Grown so you Create the Replicants and then you Sacrifice them to the Gods for a Better Harvest etc

So maybe the Engineers at some point did the same and Created the LV-223 Engineers for this Purpose?  Or maybe they was Created for another Purpose but then someone had Sacrificed one of those GUYS when they are NOT really supposed to (Prometheus Opening Scene).

So YES there are ways to look at that.............. it Really comes down to WHAT they Intended with the Differences, who came FIRST?

Time wise and Budget it would NOT have Cost a LOT to make those Planet 4 Engineers look like the Prometheus Ones... more Glossy/Grey Paint but of Prosthetics on Nose/Ridge and Contact Lenses and VOILA!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1529 XPAug-14-2021 10:05 AM

The problem is that it all went so fast so we got no chance to see how it all looked. I wish that we would have seen some of what was inside of there. When the humans went to see David they ended up in some place, I wish that they would have had that place in some of those buildings, even though we saw the Hall of heads. Unfortunately it didn't look too impressive, it should have had more Gige-style, but maybe there would have been another way to make it look interesting even though there would have been no Giger.

"But their Buildings seem more Technologically Advanced than those on Earth even Hundreds of Years ago."

That might be the case, but since we just got a quick glimpse of it there was almost no time to think about it. You can go back and watch it by pausing that scene, but you didn't get much of a chance to think about it from the exposition that we were given in the movie, which is a shame.

Maybe they got less of a budget on this one, but they should have made the Engineer city looking more awesome. Unfortunately, we almost didn't get any scenes with the engineers, they should have done better on that front.

Even though clothing might not seem interesting to them, at least they should have looked better. You don't need to make them look like simple peasants from the 1500's or whatever century that they can be compared to from the look of it.

I'm not sure whose idea it was to make it look like that but whoever decided on that design made a mistake. If you make an interesting design some people might want to know more about it but if you just make it like the stone-huts then people might not get that interested since they don't look that impressive. From story point of view it might be good to have it there but from a design point of view it doesn't.

About the hall of heads, it reminds me a bit of the Jedi council in Star Wars 2, a place where they meet and discuss things. I don't say this is what they used the place for but it could have been a part of it, maybe.

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-14-2021 5:02 PM

I think we could NOT spend too LONG on the City or Architecture both External and Internal and a LOT has to do with the Running Time and Plot Points.... Alien Covenant seemed to be Pretty Rushed from the Moment that Rosenthal had been KILLED.

It would have been NICE to see more about their Architecture and Technological Level they USE..... they Certainly are FAR from being just Stone Huts ;)

I have heard the Excuse that the City was NOT as HR Giger because of BUDGET... Unless by Budget that they had PAY the HR Giger Estate a LOT of Money.  The Earlier Drafts seemed that the City was more Gothic meets HR Giger.

But with Planet 4 it seemed some of the Buildings had that Ancient Look about them with some Technology applied... It seems that during the Process of working on a STORY and HOW they wanted the World to Appear they went through Various Ideas on WHAT it should look like.... and Ultimately they Dropped the HR Giger Aesthetic.

However the PLOT is these Engineers are our Creators and they Visited us, and Taught us Stuff and that WITHOUT the Engineers we maybe would be Living in Caves and Mud Huts... and so as WE was MADE in their Image then maybe they Helped us to BUILD our Architecture in some Places in the Image of their OWN.

I think a lot of Fans are Bummed Out that our Engineers are NOT all Walking Around in Space Jockey Suits, in More Organic Looking Ships and Living in Buildings that look like something that HR Giger had Designed...  just as SOME of the Fanbase thought we see Engineers who just go AROUND to Spread the Xenomorph across the Galaxy!

The Ancient Astronaut Idea is WHAT is the Backbone of the Engineers Plot, and so its NO WONDER the City had some Aesthetic of Ancient Buildings on Earth as the Engineers had likely Taught us to Build or we have ATTEMPTED to Replicate what our Creators had Lived in.

Otherwise if the Engineers were all about the HR Giger Aesthetic and came to Visit us and Teach us Various Stuff then its maybe a Question of WHY does Ancient Mankind not have anything or ATTEMPT to Build anything that would LOOK like our Bio-Mechanical HR Giger Gods!

If we LOOK at say LV-223 and Ignore the Shots taken ON and OF the Juggernaught then the Outpost does-not have a LOT of HR Giger Aesthetic to them, YES some have used HR Giger Works for Inspiration but then they are Given a NONE... HR Giger kind of Lick of Paint if you would.

Regarding the Clothing it seems for the Main Part the Engineers live a Ritual/Cultist like LIFE where only whats Essential is Required... The Clothing of Ancient Mankind say 1000 Years or more ago... is Practical even as of TODAY. (if you LIVE in a Climate like the Middle East/Greece etc).

If we look at Star Trek the Vulcans and Bajorans all Wear only Practical Garments and they do-not match the Variation of Modern Fashion. But they are Adequate for the Same Function.

The Klingons, the Romulans and Cardassians however they Wear the Exact same Clothing (well i mean Klingons Mainly Dress all the same, and Romulans etc) but thats because we see them in a MORE of a MILITARY like ROLE.

And so the LV-223 Engineers seem to DRESS Differently as they could be Military (RS seemed to Suggest so).  And so for Every Day Life for a Engineer then there is NO NEED for the suits we  saw in Prometheus.

The Elders Scene and Sacrificial Engineer had Dressed in Pretty much the same WAY as those Planet 4 Engineers.  But i think MOST of the Fans prefer to see the Engineers as they are in Prometheus (well the LV-223 Guys) i think IF we get to EXPLORE the Engineers again, then WHY NOT see BOTH types?

"About the hall of heads, it reminds me a bit of the Jedi council in Star Wars 2"

I Certainly get that Impression... ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

XenomorphAwakening

OvomorphMember20 XPAug-18-2021 5:17 PM

Personally, I find it very unlikely that the city is the Engineer capital. The probability that one cargo ship with no proper identification and a skeleton crew would be able to penetrate to the main docking station and dump the black goo without any action being taken to stop them is pretty low. Also, the city seems much too small and unsophisticated to be the capital of a grand interstellar civilization. 

My guess is that David had already conceived the idea of his experiments before he set course and deliberately chose the most backward, unimportant place in the greater Engineer area, someplace he could go to and dump the black goo with the lowest probability that the Engineers would notice and care enough to stop him. He then lied to Shaw and said he was taking them to the Engineer homeworld. 

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-19-2021 6:03 AM

They could look at that as a Possibility....

The Reality of it all comes from the Following.

*The Emphasis on the Engineers is that they are a Ancient Race of Creators (Genetic Space Gardeners) and their Interactions with Mankind are what leads to our Ancient Cultures and Mythos (Ancient Astronaut Theory).

*They decided Further tone down the HR Giger Aesthetic and having a City that looks more like Ancient Rome etc would FIT with the Ancient Astronaut Plot.

*Making the Sequel to Prometheus become something that will EVENTUALLY lead to ALIEN and be about the ORIGINS of the Xenomorph had meant that the Engineers World would have to be CLOSER to Earth for Plot Convenience.

A BIG PROBLEM when making a Sequel was always can you have a Movie about just Dr Shaw as the ONLY Human?   The Answer is likely NO! and so that means you have to have Humans from Earth come into Play!  

Just REALLY a Case of the Writers etc being Limited in their Ideas... because i say WHO is to say that Engineers only had Humans on Earth?

However regarding the Engineers it is UNLIKELY that they ONLY have Planet 4 as a kind of Base..... Planet 4 is likely a Colony that the Engineers use as Genetic Stock for Seeding Worlds.

Another Miss-Conception when looking a Paradise especially Biblical is that Paradise is NOT where the GODS or their Angels come from.  It is the Location of the Garden of Eden (Walled City) and thus where WE had came from.  And so if we came from THEM... then this Place is also where our Origins had come from.  When looking at the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus... this could Actually had taken place on Planet 4.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1529 XPAug-23-2021 9:48 AM

You mention running-time, I would have been fine with maybe twenty extra minutes, so we could have seen more of the environment and also have more character-development. If you do it, so the run-time becomes more important then you risk the movie, so it will likely become a failure, which Covenant became. Look at the box-office numbers in case you doubt if Covenant didn't do well.

Rosenthal was like most of the characters, meaningless. She was just there to make things happen. Things go to happen in a movie, and for that you need characters. They were just there to support the story, while the story should be centered around those in it. Unfortunately she was even worse executed than even Daniels.

I wonder if we will see concept art of the earlier looks of the Engineer city? That would be interesting to at least have a glimpse of what could have been. You might not want it to look like Giger, but that's no excuse to do what they did because it could be good-looking without the Giger esthetics. You mention the budget, but they could have made it look more interesting even though the budget was limited. Even though the amount of money was limited, at least they could have come up with something better.

The Engineers didn't even need to have Space-Jockey suits because I imagine that the SJ-suits are put on like clothing that war-pilots use. You could argue that it goes against the bio-mechanical thing if you imagine it like that, but it's a possibility. Bombing worlds with Xeno-weapons is one of the things that I imagine them to do, but there could be more to the Engineers than that. For example, the Orchs from the Lord of The Rings don't just only go to war killing people with clubs, right?

"The Ancient Astronaut Idea is WHAT is the Backbone of the Engineers Plot, and so its NO WONDER the City had some Aesthetic of Ancient Buildings on Earth as the Engineers had likely Taught us to Build or we have ATTEMPTED to Replicate what our Creators had Lived in."

I understand that, it still looked lame compared to what it could have been.

Why mankind looks nothing like the Engineers? Easy, they didn't feel the need for us to look exactly like them. Just because they made something inspired by them doesn't mean that they got to be like copies but have things in common.

"And so for Every Day Life for a Engineer then there is NO NEED for the suits we saw in Prometheus."

I agree, but I think that they should have looked more interesting. There are artistic choices that you do when you design a thing, so I think that they could have done better. You don't need to make them look like humans dressed in old potato bags made from cloth.

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-23-2021 5:42 PM

" I would have been fine with maybe twenty extra minutes,"

I think what we have to Remember is the STUDIO would like to get the Movie to be Seen by as Many as they can, and thats to Attract like NOT ONLY the Hardcore Fanbase... but the Casual Viewer and so its a Case of them thinking would the Casual Audience want to SIT through say 2.5-3 Hours?

When you make a STORY/DRAFT that would Equate to say LONGER and so would NOT FIT within say a 100 Min Run Time.... then sometimes they CUT like 20-40 Min Of Footage from what was say Intended as a 120-150 Min Story and so YEAH this can have a Effect..... some Deleted Scenes really do HELP us with the Story...

"The Engineers didn't even need to have Space-Jockey suits"

Yeah there could be Suits they can have for Certain Needs like Space Flights, we have to Assume that David and Dr Shaw had NOT Needed any Suits to CONTROL/FLY the Juggernaught.

I know that some Fans are Disappointed we NEVER had more of a Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic but as i said before if we IGNORE the Juggernaught then LV-223 was a Place that Never had a LOT of that Derelict Aesthetic either.

We do-not get to see a CLOSE LOOK at the City but its NOT ALL the Look of say Rome some 2000+ Years ago.  There is some Similarity because it would seem that the Engineers Designs had Influenced our Ancient Structures.... It would have been NICE to see some Pyramids on Planet 4.

The Engineers have a Very Ritualistic/Cultist look about their Culture, so they Build and Dress for Practicality, and so we DO-NOT see the Variation of Fashion as we do say in Modern Earth Cities.  And so its has i have said they would LIVE like say how AMISH people do... if you go to a AMISH VILLAGE you dont see much Diversity or Color with their Clothing... other Cultures are like this... (I dont Intend this to become Political) but if we look at the Variation of Dress in Afghanistan say 25+ Years ago, compared to say LAST 5.... well NOW in 10 Years maybe we can see that Country go back to where People would WEAR more Similar Clothing....

So its a Cultural thing about Modesty and Practicality, and so a Buddhist Monk has NO NEED for like Wearing Sports Clothing and NIKE! Sneakers/Trainers etc.

So the Engineers Dress similar to say Most Humans would have like say Hundreds of Years ago (500+), it would seem they may DRESS in Different Stuff for Certain Reasons..... like Military or Space Exploration.

So the Above is NOT what we Wear on a Day to Day Basis.... and so the Engineers as FAR as something more Futuristic like the LV-223 Engineers could be something they DO for like Space Travel/Military...

The Sacrificial Engineers Scene they all WORE the same kinds of Garments that we saw the Planet 4 Engineers wearing.

"Bombing worlds with Xeno-weapons is one of the things that I imagine them to do, but there could be more to the Engineers than that"

Yeah there is more to them than that.... but depends on WHAT i just dont see them being as Varied in Interests, Hobbies and Past Times as what Modern Man has.... so they would likely LIVE in more Basic Manner.

But thats NOT to say there are other Engineer Worlds and Engineers who will Dress in a Different Way, depending on what their Role is....

Some Concept Work (so seems) had a more Different Looking Engineer City but the Engineers still Dressed the same as we saw in Alien Covenant. The Concept Works for Prometheus the Engineers wore Robes in some Concepts and just Loincloth in others.... apart from the Space Jockey Suits etc.

Again there is the Potential to go to other Engineer Worlds were there could be a Different Aesthetic to their Dress and Architecture.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-24-2021 5:40 AM

I will add that it may have been Disappointing to have NOT gone and Explored any Buildings apart from the Colossal Cathedral, there SIMPLY was No Time but we could have got some Closer Shots...

The Colossal Cathedral does have a Ancient Aesthetic to it but we have to BARE IN MIND that its like the Focal/Central Point its a Place of Great Importance like say Saint Peter's Basilica or the Pantheon in Italy, or even Hagia Sophia in Turkey for Example.

And so its Ancient and Important and still USED for Rituals/Religion etc.

We could go to the Year 2100 and the Saint Peter's Basilica will be Standing and Used, its NOT like people will be like "man this building is OLD, lets knock it down and build something Modern"

The Cathedral did have some Technology like on the Roof, its also Gigantic in Size, to the Left of the Cathedral and bit Forwards we have what looks like a Landing Platform too.  I think it would be Interesting to Explore and see the Engineers again either on other Worlds or maybe Flash Backs where we can see more of their Society and Technology and show us the Right Balance of a Ancient kind of Living with the Right Balance of Technology too.

In Star Wars we see a lot of Ancient looking Buildings/Palaces and Dress... why the Jedi and Sith seem to Wear Potato Sacks ;)  (joke) but then you also have that Technology like we see with the Storm Troopers and also Darth Vader.

I think with Prometheus we have TWO Contrasting Styles too the Elders/Sacrificial Scene and LV-223 Guys.... it seems the LV-223 could be more Military (which RS seems to Indicate) but to me their Suits seemed to be something more of a Bio-Hazard (Space Jockey) and so to LIKELY go and Offer Protection from the GOO....

The Under/Sleeper Suit seemed to ALLOW them to Connect to the Cryo-Sleep Pods but also seemed to be Fused to their Skin and seemed to ALLOW them to Breath outside on LV-223 where as in the Complex and Ships the Environment was Breathable to Humans.  And so a LOT of the more Modern and Bio-Mechanical Clothing/Suits could be Merely where it is Necessary rather than for any Day to Day, or Ritual/Cultural Reasons... and it Certainly seems that High Fashion is something the Engineers are NOT into, much like Forms of Entertainment (No 60" LED TV's and Games Consoles for them).

Its a Shame we NEVER saw much Technology of the Engineers, i would have LOVED to had seen this Orrery (even if just the Actual Projector and Hologram Display).

You could have then had David talk to Oram/Daniels more about their Colonization Mission and where they are going....  Which they would say Origae-6 in the XXX Constellation and then David could show them the ORRERY and Operate it and then Select the System and Zoom in on it....

Oram could say they are looking to Escape Earth and Start a New Eden... then David could say well it looks NOTHING like Paradise, bit Baron i suppose then Quote "there is nothing in the desert. No man needs nothing" then David could ask WHY they came here instead (Planet 4) and Oram can say because it looked more Suitable.  Then David could say YES what a Paradise this was, then say the Galaxy has Many Earth like Worlds, the Engineers have been Very Busy but are Very Protective.

Something like this in a Scene with that ORREY would have shown off the Engineers Technology, it would give a Insight to Oram that Mankind are NOT alone in the Galaxy and that Edens like Earth are Everywhere.....

A Scene like ABOVE would also be a Plot Device to HOW the Engineers could Find David.... because they could go to the ORREY and see that its been SET to take a Close Look at Origae-6.... so Returning Engineers could then be like.... WHY? Lets go Check it out... "maybe this is where those who did this to our World have gone!"

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1529 XPAug-28-2021 5:13 AM

I understand about casual viewers, but maybe run-time doesn't matter as much if you enjoy it. If you do, you'll tell people about it and people might watch it. When I watch Star Wars I don't think "oh this movie is two hours" I get caught up in the moment, that's what happens when the movie is good.


You mention the Amish people, and I understand that, it's just that they could and should have looked more interesting. You might say that this has got to do with connecting humans to the Engineers, but I still think that it could have looked more interesting. Just because the Engineers are tied to humans doesn't mean that they have got to look exactly like us.

About the cathedral and technology, we didn't get to see a lot of the buildings, and it went so fast. When you build a city like that and bring something new, you should at least try to spend some more time focused on it, otherwise it becomes like a bracket. By doing this, you bring something new to the franchise and also give us some time to look at it and wonder what that is about.


Time, but that has got to do with what you are interested in. If you are more interested in a cray robot, then you try to show that and less of other things. You got to prioritize, and unfortunately they messed up Covenant. Covenant could have been better if they reduced the David-stuff heavily and focused on more interesting things. Maybe it was the studio, but I would have liked to see more about the Engineers and not have it shown via David but from humans discovering various things.


You mention protection from the goo, this reminds me of the hologram with the running Engineers. Maybe the goo spread some infection, so they ran and tried to get shelter in some room? This is how they find the beheaded Engineer.


"Something like this in a Scene with that ORREY would have shown off the Engineers Technology, it would give a Insight to Oram that Mankind are NOT alone in the Galaxy and that Edens like Earth are Everywhere....."


That could have been interesting to see and make sense. Maybe they could have gone ahead and continued their search from there. Some of them could have fled the planet that David was one and continued their search. One problem is that they just had one ship to use, but there could have been another one, not sure how that would have worked.


It had problems but could have been so much better. My thing is how do you make a movie like Covenant and still reduce the part of David? I know that the story in Covenant was about him, but the focus was wrong, they should have reduced his part heavily and focused more on the humans. You mentioned that they had a difficult time to come up with a story, but having that time on their hands, they sure should have been able to make something better? Just having time isn't the only thing because it can still end up in a disappointment. There has got to be a way to get a story that is at least decent and characters. Hopefully those that are in charge of it nowadays discuss what went wrong and how they can get it back on track. Maybe they will look at the prequels and what didn't work there. Everyone does mistakes, but what's important is that you learn from them.

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-28-2021 8:13 AM

"When I watch Star Wars I don't think "oh this movie is two hours" I get caught up in the moment, that's what happens when the movie is good"

I think Star Wars has a Advantage that is is VERY WELL KNOWN.... its often that some Movies the Studios do AIM for a Run-Time of 90-110 Min and you do have Movies that have to CUT like 15-30 Min Footage that sometimes is to HELP it get down to Running Time.....

If you have a WELL KNOWN Franchise that you KNOW will Guarantee Box Office then its more LIKELY that more Casual Viewers will go see it, if this is NOT the Case you get Hardcore who would go see it still but some Casual Viewers may be "Nah! i wait for Home Release"

But sometimes then YES you could RISK it... take AVATAR this was a New Franchise and it did Extremely Well and YET it Ran for 160 Min or so.

It come down to say "ok so we gonna have extra 15 Min thats devoted to the Engineers City" its then ok so WHAT do we do with that Extra 15 Minutes and WHAT is this Really going to do with the Rest of the Plot.

"You got to prioritize, and unfortunately they messed up Covenant"

Well the Prequels were to NOT be about the Xenomorph but other Themes and Creation was ONE of those, with the U-Turn to go and SHOW US the Origin of the Xenomorph and Eventually to lead us to ALIEN... it seems that RS was NOT a Big Fan but he Compromised and it would seem that HE or Hill/Giler decided to THROW the Curve-ball that David had Created the Xenomorph and so the PLOT was to be Centered around HIM....

Its NOT to everyones Cuppa Tea.... but you CANT please everyone.. it seems that even the Earlier Ideas for P2 would have seen David use the Black Goo etc to CREATE a HORROR.....

For me i GET IT.... it makes Sense.... but to me i think they should have had David go and Create something thats Different, and also had taken us to where we could have MET with Engineers and other Humans.... they had to be Sacrificed in a Quick Scene so that you can Introduce other Humans to the PLOT!

I dont have much of a Problem with A.I in Movies we all have Different things we like and dont like..... i do think we should have seen more about the Engineers and SET-UP that we would Further Explore then in Future...

You are SPOT ON in that its Hard to Pull Off a Movie if you dont have Good Characters and by that its Usually Human or something you can see some Humanity/Vulnerability with.  And so David just came off as Straight Up Malevolent but he had his Reasons which we NEVER got to Delve into much...

A Movie Needs a Antagonist... but you have to Balance that with the Protagonist and well THIS is a Area it just NEVER WORKED....   it was just Hard to Connect with and be Bothered about Daniels and Tennessee and what becomes of them.  The Plot does-not Bold Well for them..

And so Do You go again and introduce more New Protagonist?   Then if we need TWO more Movies and David will likely be Important to BOTH its then HOW do you have New Protagonist who can Survive another TWO Movies?

I think that there could have been a BETTER IDEA... for a Prometheus Sequel, you dont have to have Humans who come from Earth....

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-28-2021 8:26 AM

"Maybe the goo spread some infection, so they ran and tried to get shelter in some room? This is how they find the beheaded Engineer"

Indeed this seems to be the Case.... the Engineers seemed to be Infected with the GOO in someway.... it makes SENSE that they was Running to that Room because when we get to Prometheus we see the Head in the Room is Preserved Well, the Urns in the Room had NOT Started to Leak until the Crew of the Prometheus had Affected the Environment with their Presence.

So maybe this Room was a Pressured Environment or something where the Pathogen would become Inactive or SLOW DOWN...

The Engineer Suit on the other Side was HOLLOW... other Shots of Dead Engineers were HOLLOW... but this could be for Production (Less Time and Less Weight with Hollow Props).  But IF indeed Holloway was in the Process where Eventually he would become like the Sacrificial Engineer, then if you was inside a SPACE SUIT all that would Remain inside is  SOUP!

When the Process of the Chemical Reaction that the Pathogen does in Breaking Down a Organism, then Contained in a Pressure Suit, this could EXPLODE from the Suit and i think that does HELP to Explain the Dead Engineer Suits.

It seemed that RS had indicate what Happened to the Engineers was similar to what was becoming of Holloway.... and so when we look at HOW do those Engineers get Infected?

SABOTAGE does seem the Answer.... IF someone was AGAINST the Mission, they could Arrange a Celebration DRINK...

"here is a Toast my Comrades, soon we Shall Smite those Humans of the Face of their World and Reclaim it"

Otherwise maybe someone had Contaminated their Suits...  as Far as maybe Oxygen or whatever they Need to Survive inside a Suit.

But thats NOT to say what Happened it was a Mystery... they Suffered a Outbreak and that was that... it was Never Indicated as to HOW this Happened.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10130 XPAug-28-2021 9:43 AM

Various Stages of Concept inc from 2014 (Lower Image) seem to Indicate that the Potato Sack Look ;) really is what the Engineers go for....

The First Image TOP LEFT is more Ceremonial Importance but in Alien Covenant we see TWO of the Engineers in Similar.  The TOP MIDDLE Image is Different the Neck of the Engineers seems to be Similar to those from LV-223 and again there is ONE Engineer in Alien Covenant who appears to look Similar and is a more PALE Color with Longer Neck.

Again a LOT of this is to FIT with the Ancient Astronaut/Creators Plot. In Many of the Creation/God Mythos then the Gods look VERY HUMAN.. some they look Different (Indian/Hindu).   We came from them and Created in their Image and so YEAH i guess we LOOK like them...

Some Concepts for AC had indicated beings who look more like Ancient Greek People so we could have GOT that instead..... Lucky we Never.

so its like i had said, it seems the more LV-223 Looking Suits are just what the Engineers would Wear for Specific Tasks and so its NOT what they Wear on a Day to Day Basis...

The Prometheus Engineers did have a Different Skin Texture/Shine more like a Shark/Dolphin like look, but this was Mainly to do with the Pressure Suit they wore... The Sacrificial Engineer looked to have a more Marble Statue like Gloss about him.

So they look almost None-Organic... like Synthetic in their Skin, it think that the Direction they were going was that the Prometheus Guys are Genetically Engineered/Enhanced.

This Cross-Play look is what our Planet 4 Engineers (some) look like, the Difference to the Sacrificial Engineer really comes down to a more Professional Paint Job thats more Glossy... but also the Sacrificial Engineer was Enhanced with Prosthetic on his Body too

The Engineers in Prometheus also had Prosthetics for their Head too... but they could have GIVEN a more Glossy Paint to the Engineers Skin in AC and Contact Lenses to make them look more Close to those in Prometheus.

But i think this was MAYBE nothing to do with Saving Time and Money but a INTENDED look.

However we can still go and be Introduced to other Engineers who Dress more Different.... maybe those LV-223 kinds are NOT all Gone... and IF they are the Fallen Angels..

Maybe they could Dress more in Combination of LV-223 and Hellraiser?

And so other Engineer World inhabitants may NOT look the same as Planet 4, they maybe could have Different Architecture Aesthetic... more of a HR Giger Aesthetic?  And they may Dress in something Different to what the Elders in Prometheus and Engineers in Alien Covenant did?

Its Possible.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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