ALIEN: VENGEANCE13,310 Views98 RepliesAdd A Reply
I would like to Start a Topic to discus the BACKLASH from the events of Alien Covenant, in Context to Planet 4 and the Paradise that has been LAID TO WASTE.
We can Safely assume that AC is Canon and will SET in Motion events that would lead to ALIEN and Impact the Franchise. But this is NOT really to talk about so much WHAT it is that Happens Next for David.
But to Speculate on the Reprecautions that his Actions on Planet 4 (Destruction of the Engineers) will have on NOT only the Franchise but also for the Creations of the Engineers in general.
Would the Vengeance of the Engineers only be taken out on or Directed towards David?
Ridley Scott has informed us that some Engineers will RETURN to then Discover what has become of Planet 4 and they WILL-NOT be pleased. How FAR would they take their WRATH?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
They will indeed be enraged to find that somebody unleashed their pathogen on their sacred homeworld. All those poor souls.
But my questions are:
Those engineers who return to planet 4, were they on a mission somewhere absent during those 10 years, and then returned to find planet 4 decimated. If yes, where will they go next? Will they go to lv-223?
Or did they come from another planet where engineers live? If there are other planets where engineers live, how many are there?
They could find out who did it because there is still Shaw and David's juggernaut on planet 4 via those holographic recordings.
And I suppose Walter's body is in the hall of heads so they could tinkle with him and find out where covenant crew was originally headed. Also, I wonder how would they react to David's workshop and the remaining ovomorphs. Will they destroy it all, or will they take samples?
By the time engineers return to planet 4, David will be working on perfecting his creations that he plans to unleash.
There are other factors, like how many Engineer missions were there during the events o Planet 4. 1 or just a few? Then probably their anger will lead to nothing and will be annihilated. The last probably will happen if there more of them.
Second to they even remember how their weapons abandoned 2000 would work and how an outbreaks looks like. Also the old question if they didn't event digital circuitry how could they found out where the Covenant left to? Even if they find the disabled android are we sure it is not David himself, as he probably copied himself into Walter, erasing the latter.
But again what is the point? Probably there will be no sequel by Scott.
Seems to me...Earth is the Engineers first problem. Earth is the one making androids and sending humans to defile their temples. Earth is the one waging war.
Killing and torturing an Android isn't going to bring back their dead.
They need to cut this virus off at the source.
Maybe they could give David flesh so he can actually feel pain. Then torture him for an eternity.
I'm pretty sure David already feels pain. When he was fighting with Walter, he definitely grunted in what seemed like pain.
Pain is actually a pretty useful thing for a sentient being to have, as it's a protective mechanism.
How FAR would they take their WRATH?
Well, most likely, they don't have digital technology and are unlikely to revive Walter/David. Or otherwise download/receive data from him.
Most likely they will find the crashed ship and Shaw's hologram.
Shaw is a human. Walter looks like a human. And if the Engineers have other colonies with people, then (not knowing which of the colonies destroyed Planet 4) they will arrange a galactic purge - perhaps they will exterminate thousands planets with humans. Perhaps they will find Origae-6, but it will be an accident. They will attack with small forces and this will give David/Walter a chance to win and capture their ship (Derelict). Or secretly "put" xeno eggs on the ship. Which will perfectly explain why the Pilot was infected. And you don't have to invent David with a height of 3 meters or how synthetic can be infected in principle. xDDD
Or perhaps the Engineers will win the battle and take the eggs to LV-223 for research.
But the pilot will be infected and the ship will never arrive at LV-223.
Has anyone thought of the plot: Engineer starships are living beings? And might GROW the eggs pods----no need for a queen or David to put/plant the eggs there.
Makes sense if the Juggernauts are living, they at least have a organic/living design. I can see them giving 'birth', maybe to thousands of eggs...just sit on a planet pumping out egg pods.
David feeling pain is hard to wrap my head around...suppose he cries and 'feels' emotion...just programmed to 'fit in' with his human owners? Not scare them?
Firstly i would like to say that INDEED who knows if we will ever get another ALIEN Movie or in Particular one that will Consider the After-math of Alien Covenant. They could just Consider that LV-223 was the Engineers Military Facility and Planet-4 is the Homeworld and that essentially we saw the LAST of the Engineers on LV-223 in Prometheus and that AFTER the Bombardment by David then we have NO-MORE of them left.
It was only RS who indicated their are MORE of them and some would return, but even if there are MORE then who knows IF/WHEN they would return to Planet 4. And so Indeed even if we get another ALIEN Movie then Disney may choose to Totally ignore or not Cover what the Aftermath on Planet 4 would lead too.
But certainly Regarding the other Comments you made, they are INDEED other Factors we need to Consider.
A Few have brought up about HOW they cant detect where David has gone..... this is a Good Point. I am sure that IF we had RS continue with the Prequel Plan then he would have maybe came up with a Reason for HOW the Engineers would be able to EVENTUALLY turn up where David is OFF TO..... or maybe as with say the Egg in Alien 3 they would not BOTHER giving any Plausible Explanation.
I think if we look at what RS had said in regards to EVENTUALLY then some Engineers will RETURN to Planet 4 then we have to look at the Evidence they Discover.
*Toasted Engineer Bodies: Would they recognize what could Cause this?
*Downed Juggernaught: That David used would they recognize where the Ship came from and know what the Cargo was?
*Davids Workshop: Would they be Familiar with similar Horrors and also they would see the Black-Goo Urns and Ampoules.
From this i think the Engineers should surely KNOW that this Place was Attacked with the Bio-Logical Weapon they had on LV-223. The Chances of ANY of the Engineers having NO idea what LV-223 is.. would be SLIM! Especially any who Leave/Return to Planet 4 because this World is Located near the Zeta 2 Reticuli System.
However to Discover Exactly WHO was responsible and WHERE they are or are FROM/GOING would be more Difficult.
They would come across the Bodies of the Humans, but its a Case of by the TIME the Engineers arrive what is the Condition of those Bodies to make a Identification... the Engineers as Genetic Engineers would likely Determine they are HUMAN however...
Especially ONCE they check the Juggernaughts Holo-Recordings where they would see that David is in the Likeness of a Human and they would see Dr Shaw. But also we have Dr Shaws Preserved Corpse and we can ASSUME maybe the Body of Walter/David.
The Question however would be from THIS can they Determine these Humans are from Earth? The likely way they could do so would be IF the Earth is the ONLY place where our Species is Located. As i doubt from the Uniforms of the Covenant Dead Crew, and the Lander Wreckage they could Determine that these Humans are from EARTH....
So if they have say 3, 5, 10, 20 Worlds with Humans then they would have to TRY and Figure out which World these SOB's who have Trespassed came from.
So i think at the VERY LEAST the Engineers who Return would likely know the SHIP came from LV-223, they would likely Determine the Species that Caused this Problem. Well they would Summarize that it Resulted from such a Species. (David being a Creation of Mankind).
What would be their COURSE of Action?
I would Assume they would GO to LV-223 to Check on that Place and Secure it.... maybe they FELT that to Abandon it was Good Enough.... they was WRONG!
They would have to Determine from WHERE the Intruders had came from... do they know it is EARTH? If so then you can bet they would be OFF to Earth to DESTROY US.
If the Engineers had kept/raised our Species on Multiple-Worlds then surely they would PAY those Worlds a Visit to Determine the Culprit.... could they EVEN consider that they have to DESTROY all of their Humanoid Creations?
LUCKY for us it seems there has been NO real Impact on Earth, so the Engineers either NEVER returned by the ALIEN Franchise Time-Line or they did but SOMETHING had Happened to them on during their NEXT course of ACTION.
I say that because IF there are Multiple Worlds with Humans from Thousands of Years ago... the Engineers would likely CHECK them off from CLOSEST First which we have to ASSUME would be the Earth.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think that for them to Determine as to WHERE it is that David is going WOULD require some way of gaining Information about WHO he is and WHERE he is off too.
This we can only ASSUME would be via WHOEVER is Stranded on Planet 4 from Walter/David. And it would make more Sense if its David because its a case of HOW does Walter then Communicate with the Engineers. But thats NOT to say that they Discover David though. I think its LIKELY that Walter remains on Planet 4
I can only ASSUME as i did prior that the Engineers would Certainly want to Secure/Destroy the LV-223 Outpost or they would Certainly want to Visit their Humanoid Inhabited Worlds and DESTROY those who showed signs of Great Advancements that could be a Space Fairing Threat.
If this is the CASE then the ONLY reason for Earth being in ONE PIECE in the Franchise must be that those Engineers do indeed Learn it was David and they KNOW where he has GONE... and so the Engineers are OFF to GET HIM FIRST....
But they SUFFER a Calamity!
"not knowing which of the colonies destroyed Planet 4) they will arrange a galactic purge"
Exactly LETO... i wrote my Replies before i READ your comments.
You have to think about it from the Engineers Perspective... and you have to ASSUME they Visit the Worlds they Create and Maintain a Certain Level of Technology on those Worlds so that they REMAIN as Advanced as we was Thousands of Years ago.... you WOULD NOT want to give your Creations any Chance of Traveling Space unless you are IN CONTROL of that World as in you Monitor it and have BASES on that World and can Control all Space Travel.
I think if we look at Planet 4 we could ASK to WHY those Engineers look to be NOT so Technologically Advanced? Well they ARE... its just they ONLY use the Technology for Certain things and they LIVE a more Mundane Life for the most PART like how some Amish Towns are in the USA.
The more Advanced Technology as far as Bio-Mechanical Ships etc are maybe Reserved for Space Exploration, Seeding/Visitation and Destruction.
This TOPIC was to look at the Broad Effect on the Engineers, and i think with RS then YES they would have Found somewhat to Determine that the Culprit was OFF to Origae-6
But you can ASSUME that after this they would SURELY want to go to Earth and PREVENT us from Polluting the Galaxy with our Ways/Culture.... and i dont think they would GIVE us any more Chances.... Especially if the Earth is NOT the only place they had Raised/Evolved and Visited our Species or similar.
HOWEVER..... to NOT go and Conflict with the Franchise, we have to assume that those Engineers who are OFF for Revenge will MEET a FATE of Death!
This could LIKELY be at the Hands of David well his Creations.... and so indeed "Or perhaps the Engineers will win the battle and take the eggs to LV-223 for research" we cant RULE out the Engineers deciding to TAKE what David had Created and Mass Produce them.. at a GREAT HUBRIS..
Common Sense would be to go to LV-223 get some Ships with Black Goo and Send them out to the Worlds they know have Humans or similar and then if SUCH Worlds show signs of being more Advanced than the Engineers would like... UNLEASH HELL!
I think its likely only a SMALL Number of Engineers return... 1-2 Ships? They would surely Contact the others or Send a Message.... but then they could have so much ANGER and IF they Discover where the Culprit is going (Origae-6?) then they would let their Emotion get the Better of them and SEEK out Revenge on the Culprit First!
Deal with the Rest of Humanity Later.... but we know they DONT get to achieve that....
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"Or did they come from another planet where engineers live? If there are other planets where engineers live, how many are there?"
I think we can Assume that the Earth is NOT the only World that they Visit where they have Humanoids.
I think maybe its UNLIKELY that Planet 4 is the ONLY place the Engineers have Worlds... that they Inhabit!
I think we maybe NEED to go back to what the Engineer said before he TORE the Head off David... so Dr Shaw asked him.... David said the Engineer came from PARADISE. I have mentioned this before a Number of Times and that is we have to maybe PAY some attention to what is Paradise! Especially in Biblical Context.
*It is NOT where GOD comes from or where GOD exists.
*It is NOT where the Angels come from.
*It is the Cradle of Human Civilization (Garden of Eden)
If we look at other aspects of Paradise BEYOND where the Spiritual Immortal Soul of the Dead goes...the Broader point with this is also that it is a PLACE where ONLY those deemed Worthy can GO/STAY.
So in that Context we could look at Planet 4 being a Place where Humanity (Earth) is NOT worthy of a Place, and that Planet 4 is Certainly NOT where all the Engineers are Located or maybe Originated... and Certainly any Layer of Creation above the Engineers do-not come from Planet 4.
I think another INTERESTING comment that RS had made was that the Engineers are NOT a Race. They are a Civilization. And so they have maybe SEEDED many Worlds with Humanoids..... Raised them, Evolved them... and maybe they had TAKEN some of the Worthy to Planet 4 to then Interbreed so we have some Variety of Species and HENCE they are not a Race as per say... RS had said before that just as Humans have many Races, WHY cant the Engineers.
I think any ideas from the Past like HR Giger as far as the Ships being able to Grow/Lay the Eggs are what we WONT be seeing.... well its NOT what i think RS would have shown.
This does-not mean the Engineers do-not have the Facilities to MASS Produce the Eggs... so they could still go and Discover the Creation of David and well EVOLVE and MASS PRODUCE them to get to the Cargo on the Derelict.
Now indeed HR Gigers Ideas where Great... they could maybe be Applied to something more ANCIENT but not our Xenomorph from the Franchise via Virtue of Alien Covenant.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
OH MY!!!! LOL what do we have here…..we have all the usual suspects and believe me this is in no particular order….Shall we begin! Class is in SESSION!
“Seems to me...Earth is the Engineers first problem. Earth is the one making androids and sending humans to defile their temples. Earth is the one waging war.”
Monster Zero you really think we pose any real threat to a race of aliens that have technology millions of times more advanced than humans….I mean seriously, you really think that for any reasonable moment! I think what we have all seen so far is another separate part of Engineer civilization…let’s not judge books by their covers. Everyone presumably is judging everything they think they know by one planet inhabited by some of these Engineers….if you visited someone’s outhouse could you judge the entire planet by what you smelled from that hole in the ground!!!! NEXXXXXXT! We start giving people a few simple ideas and this always happens in posts like this…….
“Maybe they could give David flesh so he can actually feel pain. Then torture him for an eternity.”
MonsterZero you are torturing us with this really you are! Please watch this instructional video!
What am I reading here in this post???? Is this even possible??? Do you people watch these movies???
“I'm pretty sure David already feels pain. When he was fighting with Walter, he definitely grunted in what seemed like pain.
Pain is actually a pretty useful thing for a sentient being to have, as it's a protective mechanism.”
I really did not want to comment about this because really why!!!!! Let’s see let’s see….Ash gets his head knocked off on the Nostromo – NO PAIN!!!! NOPE! NONE! Bishop gets torn in two on the Suloco! NO PAIN NONE!!!! Then David in Prometheus says “We wear space suits to make you feel more comfortable.”
Then Walter gets his hand eaten off NOOOOOOO PAIN NONE!!!! David stabs Walter with a flute NOOOOOOO PAIN NONE…..
Hox please watch this instructional video in reference to your comment. This looks like what you are saying about ANDROIDS FEELING PAIN IN THE ALIEN UNIVERSE - THOSE COMMENTS ARE DAFT LIKE THIS LITTLE FURRY GUY - WATCH CLOSELY NOW!
“How FAR would they take their WRATH?
Well, most likely, they don't have digital technology and are unlikely to revive Walter/David. Or otherwise download/receive data from him.”
So you really believe the Engineers have faster than light speed space craft but have no idea how spin state quantum computers work……NO COMMENT!!!! NONE NO COMMENT!!!!!
Leto please watch this video. How far is roll going how far!
Now the one idea that I thought was interesting just because hey why not! Was from MonsterZero.
Could the Engineers have spaceships that produce the eggs…..I mean they have technology way more advanced than a concept such as this and the idea is interesting why not….like a big filter drip coffee machine dripping out the contents and voilà you have a hard boiled planet wrecking egg….very plausible – interesting - vivid!
BigDave you started this take these kids to school I am going back to bed I cannot stand this anymore!!!!
Nite Nite..... Dont let the Bed Bugz Bite ;)
But i will tackle some of the points you raised...
Pain.... this is a Interesting one... Physical Pain i think we can RULE-OUT as you pointed out. Emotional Pain however is something that Maybe could affect David at least... NOT our Walter i think you could call him a TIN-CAN and he take No Offense.
I think regarding DATA then i am NOT sure the Engineers could Connect with the Technology of Weyland/Synthetics. But i do FIND it very HARD to believe that the Engineers Technology is NOT based on some form of A.I and Electrical Components.. maybe its NOT the same as we USE... but they Certainly would have some kind of Computing just it may be VERY ALIEN to what we could Consider a Machine and HOW it works.
If the Engineers are Very Similar to us, and they are at least Hundreds of Millions of Years Old, then we have to ask if they had Evolved similar to us Technologically... NOW the Prometheus Plot would indicate that our Advancement from Cave-Men was in PART thanks to the Engineers teachings.
So what we have to then Consider is its Possible the Engineers had Technology maybe similar to we have had in the 20th Century in the Past, maybe they had Created Machines and Robots in the Past?
The only Logical way they Progressed to what they have GOT without any Evolution of Technology would have to BE that they had been GIVEN/INHERITED such Technology or they had OBTAINED/STOLEN it.
I think as FAR as HOW the Engineers can Determine where Origae-6 is Located, must be they Discovery some Clues (but WHAT) or likely that its either the Walter is able to POINT out on a Star Map where David has gone.... or that Origae-6 is connected to the Engineers, or they just by Coincidence turn up by Pure Luck!
Some Speculate that its David on Planet 4 but this makes No Sense.... UNLESS we have it that David uploaded himself to Walter..... and then David goes "ah my Brother how does the New Body Feel?" "Together we can NOW go and RULE the Galaxy" Then they Embrace and David in Walters Body then RIPS the Head Off David... so then David gets Pissed Off and feels Betrayed and wants Revenge!
Regarding the Engineers Fear of Mankind i think that they would be Concerned at the Potential Threat... the Engineers seem ONLY as Powerful as their Technology. Those Goons on LV-223 look like Enhanced Engineers but they are MORTAL after all.
But we have seen that Mankind can Travel to Engineer Worlds, they have Created Synthetics who can USE their Technology and Bio-Weapons..... and the PROOF of such a Threat is what any Engineers returning to Planet 4 would Discover..
so i think they would have Concerns/Fears over what Happens if any of their Sub-Creations would OBTAIN their Knowledge, Secrets and Technology. They would WANT to make sure that Mankind does-not get their Hands on this.
I think their other Concern would be that if one of their Sub-Creations becomes Space Fairing and then Discover other Worlds where the Engineers had Sub-Created on... they would FEAR for how any Uninvited Humans could Corrupt and Effect any Civilization on these Worlds.
But as far as a Military Threat of Mankind vs the Engineers with our Technology then surely the Engineers would NOT be too Concerned.
I think the Engineers are Resilient (LV-223) but i think that Human Technology can KILL them.... Marines with Pulse Riffles vs the Planet 4 Engineers unarmed? YEP we get Dead Engineers.
But their Technology and Bio-Weapons are so Deadly and Advanced and they would Consider us as Insignificant like a Lab Rat that they would have NO Hesitation to NUKE us... well for them that would be to UNLEASH the Pathogen from the Heavens.
We dont know what Numbers the Engineers have... the Galaxy is a BIG PLACE... they could be Few/Far between. But then it would ONLY need a Small Fleet of Engineer Ships to LAY WASTE to the Threat of Mankind.
I think the THREAT to the Engineers is themselves... in their Arrogance, leads Hubris, their Curiosity will likely lead to their Downfall... as far as THOSE who would Venture within out Sector of the Galaxy. I think seeing the Xenomorph in Progress would be something they would NOT pass up on and they would likely WISH to take this Beast... Perfect it and UNLEASH that on us.... which Could be their Downfall.
But then WHO KNOWS... if David from Spares could BUILD Multiple Walters with his SOUL and OFF they go to LV-223 to Obtain a Handful of Juggernauts and go OFF to Destroy the Engineers Worlds..... i doubt we would see that though.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Black Ant wrote:
Engineers are..."millions of times more advanced than humans"
I have yet to see that! They seem on par with humans maybe behind.
We've yet to see the Engineers weapons. We don't even know if they created the pathogen or just found it?
They both have FTL. Both can hibernate, transform planets to suit their needs...were not even sure if the Engineers have anti-gravity.
As far as we know Engineers dedicated some tombs and a couple of Juggernauts to their Weapons of Mass Destruction plans.
Humans are using Earth as a testing ground. Blowing off nukes and releasing bioweapons on their own people. Doubt they'll hesitate to unleash their WMD on some pasty aliens.
I'd say humans are far and away the more dangerous species.
Maybe RS can prove me otherwise.
I agree with MonsterZero :
Earth is the one making androids and sending humans to defile their temples. Earth is the one waging war.
It's the only way to be sure......
But as BigDave said,
AC is Canon and will SET in Motion events that would lead to ALIEN and Impact the Franchise.
The problem with this seems to be that if the Engineers were successful with their course of action, Alien may not have happened...........unless the Engineers' vengeance was what we saw at the end of Resurrection.
Resurrection ending: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnmMksVK8pY
"Alien may not have happened."
Yep. It's clear the Engineers are out of the 'picture' by A L I E N.
Did David actually wipe them out?! ...... Maybe they actually became gods...ascended to a higher type of life... Might be a cool ending.
Although it may be an unpopular idea- if anyone even considered it at all, I like the idea that during the Quadrilogy, the Engineers were prepping to destroy Earth and achieved their goal by the end of Resurrection.
I think the Engineers had reached a STAGE of Evolution on the Technological Level many many MILLIONS of Years ago and so they maybe got to a POINT where they did-not NEED to improve things.
We do-not know IF they Created their Technology from Scratch, we also DONT know where they got the Black Goo/Sacrificial Goo from.... Now Wayne Haag seems to think the Engineers did-not Create their Technology or Bio-Weapons. This is something that could be Explored or it could be shown that THEY had indeed Created it all.
It seems their Technology is Advanced, Very Advanced, but they have been GIVEN a Massive Head Start over Mankind... maybe they also had been GIVEN a Helping Hand?
They Certainly have Anti-Gravity as shown in The Crossing, they Certainly have BEYOND FTL Travel by Virtue of them having Maps to other Galaxies in their Navigation Systems means that the Vastness of our Galaxy is NOT even the ENDS of where they have been.
Do they have WEAPONS? Who knows... you would expect a Humanoid Species who have been Around for Hundreds of Millions of Years would have had Weapons at some point.
The Comics showed they had Weapons.. but then the Comics would have likely had the Juggernauts shoot Lasers too...
Now the Earlier Draft to the First Prequel (Alien Engineers) did have these Engineers having Weapons we cant even Perceive something that Sends a Forcewave of Strands through the AIR that can-not been seen that KNOCKS the Socks of those it HITS..
So we can Speculate to what Weapons they have or Dont... and WHO knows what these Weapons would be like.
Maybe ONE thing to Consider is IF you are a Ancient Race of Genetic Space Gardeners who go and Seed/Evolve Life on Worlds and Visit them and Teach them to a Certain Level (say like Mankind was Thousands of Years ago) and you MAKE SURE that these Worlds do-not Evolve Technologically past that LEVEL..
Then do you NEED any Weapons?
You could Create some Horrific Nightmare to Unleash on a Area that would KILL the Pests you wish Eradicated.. Then if that is NOT going to do the JOB... you have the BLACK GOO!
Bows and Arrows would be NO USE to prevent the Onslaught like David had Unleashed from the Heavens.
Now that WEAPON is something that must be USED with HATE and Revenge! Because if you merely wanted to RESET a World, in doing so KILL the Inhabitants i think that DROPPING down URNS of Sacrificial Goo would Ultimately Kill those Pesky Humans and RESET their Evolution to like STAGE ONE... well Certainly Back quite a bit.
If this is HOW they Operate and the Limits of their Weapons then this is a HUBRIS from Great Arrogance.. because IF/WHEN you come across a Species who have ADVANCED Technology say like the PREDATORS... then the Engineers and the Black Goo may NOT be enough.
This is when it comes down to SUPERIORITY in Terms of SPACE WARFARE..... Some 1940'/50's Bombers that have NUKES are NOT going to HIT their Target if Intercepted by 5th Generation Stealth Fighters.
But ALAS we dont know to WHAT extent the Engineers have in Context to Space Ships that can Destroy other Space Threats... we have YET to see any, but we cant RULE that out.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I would say that the Engineers had weaponry, but maybe not conventional things like we have. After all, they are superior to humans and their weaponry could be biological or just superior intellect. It's ALIEN, yes? Still, it's fun to think of them destroying Earth in a visceral way that only humans could apprecite/fear.
Regarding Earth being in Good Shape by 2179 etc
We simply do-not know HOW-FAR the other Engineer Worlds are away or Worlds they Visit.... so those who Return to Planet 4 may only be SMALL in Number... who knows where they would COME from and HOW LONG it took them to reach Planet 4 from where they Departed.
You would think after they RETURN they would SEND or at least LEAVE some Message to say what they are GOING to do NEXT..... So Eventually then MORE of the Engineers could be Coming... when would that be? 50 Years, 100 Years, 200 Years etc.
To NOT conflict with the Franchise.... then we can ASSUME the Smaller Contingent of Returning Engineers would take more Interest in Seeking Out David or taking his Eggs from Planet 4 to LV-223 to MASS PRODUCE and USE against Humanity...
Ultimately this likely becomes a FOLLY and leads to their Death!
Because surely Mankind can-not WIN a WAR with the Engineers and also NOT without leaving any Mention or Knowledge within the Franchise. So its UNLIKELY they would make it CLOSE to Earth..... they likely meet their Comeuppance at the Hand of the Xenomorph in some way.
This does-not mean we cant see a Return/Conflict with the Engineers that is SET after the ALIEN Time-Line. Unless this CONFLICT is set FAR FAR away.
Regarding the Earth in 2379..... who knows... i think we have to Consider the Conflicts of Mankind with each other, add to that Synthetics that could have gone Rebellious... and then Autons that had been Created by Synthetics and we could see that MAYBE their are more than Humans on Earth trying to RULE/CONTROL the Planet that leads to CHAOS.
The other way the Prequels and any WAR OF THE WORLDS would NOT affect the Franchise would be IF and its a BIG IF..... that RS would Consider removing ALIENS as Canon... that would NOT sit down well with some Fans and i feel would also be a ERROR.
So WHATEVER the Backlash of the Engineers would be it would seem it had NOT reached Earth..... We also have to look at LV-223 it could be ideal if this place was GONE by the Time we get to ALIEN.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@BlackAnt, you persist in being stubbornly wrong about so many things that I’m not entirely sure it’s worth giving you a lesson in life. I like the cat videos, though.
Ridley Scott has form in creating androids that do and androids that do not suffer pain. Roy Batty in Blade Runner certainly did; Leon most definitely did not. Not all robots are equal. David is “the closest thing I will ever have to a son,” says Weyland. He is no cheap space trucker synthetic like Ash.
As for what pain actually IS, well, I’ll let you dwell on that. But suffice it to say that any mind worth the name could sense pain with the correct sensory apparatus. Weyland made the mistake of thinking that David has no soul. But he certainly does. And it’s a tortured one at that. He and Walter may well have the fortitude to block out physical pain (we’ve all done it) but it’s a rash person who states that they cannot experience it.
106. The air roars in their ears . Their guns snap and bark impotently. And then the Sleeper strikes. The missiles he hurls at them are almost invisible. Neither solid projectiles nor directed energy; more like knots tied in the fabric of space itself. The first missile crushes Ray like an invisible fist. The second splashes Glasse against the wall like an insect.
Above is from Alien Engineers and it appears the Engineer has Devices that are BEYOND what we could comprehend as a Weapon. So they could have Technology that would give them SUPERPOWERS to a degree like we see some Superheros use or FORCE POWERS from Star Wars... (Disney would Love this).
The Pitch that Jon Spaights made regarding his Engineers (Alien 01 the Master Narrative) had these Engineers on the VERGE of a Great Evolution to Transcend beyond their Physical Restraints and on to Multi-Dimensional beings. This would show they have Advanced to a LEVEL where they can Manipulate Space/Time and are on the Verge of even Greater.
Now NONE of this could be Canon anymore... as they could change such a Direction, but it seems the Earlier Ideas was the Engineers Technology was so Powerful it would seem Magical/Godlike. For example Technology that gives them Powers like say Jean Grey from X-Men. Or Powers more than Darth Sidious.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
This is how Hudson would deal with little black bugs.
I think the Prequels do leave a FEW Problems for sure.
Especially what becomes of Planet 4 and LV-223 at the Time of ALIEN and after.... surely there can be NOTHING that remains?
While the Engineers Plot was Interesting and BOLD... having some ANGRY and ADVANCED SOB's who are intent on Destruction no SOON as they Discover Planet 4... and having these beings being Located on our DOORSTEP (well within 50LY) really causes a Continuity Problem with the Franchise.
But this was the SACRIFICE needed to allow for the AC Plot.
The idea i had for where David and Dr Shaw would go... was like over 10'000 LY away. The Aftermath of Davids Actions in my Idea would not Impact the Earth until after the EVENTS of Alien Resurrection... You could have even Pondered that the USM was trying to get the Xenomorph to Protect against the Engineers as THIS is what dealt with them PRIOR.
The Galaxy is HUGE.... we have Barely Scratched the Surface in the ALIEN Franchise.... i think its UNLIKELY the Engineers have only Seeded/Evolved and Taught Civilization on Earth, while they LIVE on Planet 4 and keep their Weapons on LV-223.
I also recall at least 4-5 Galaxies on the Holo-map that David had activated in Prometheus so they are LIKELY out their in other Places... could be they dont Return to certain Worlds very Often...
The Alien 01 The Master Narrative and Alien Genesis/Engineers seem to indicate the Engineers had NO real Malice against their Creations... UNTIL a certain Time they became Concerned, Disappointed and Angry at what we was doing... they LIKELY saw they had to Destroy us out of Fear/Concern of what we could become IF we was left Unchecked.... and likely their Efforts to Change our Ways was MET in a way that PUSHED them to PULL THE PLUG.
The Aftermath i would assume would lead them to GO and Inspect other Worlds they have Humanoids on that are not Watched/Ruled over by Engineers and see HOW they are getting along...
But for Earth its Curtains...
Could they also Ponder having to WIPE OUT other Worlds to be on the SAFE SIDE so that Nothing like what Happened in the Prequels can Happen again?
We can SAFELY Assume that which ever Mission they SEND out to go after David.... will lead to their Downfall...
But ACTUALLY you DONT have to even Follow David to give a Conclusion to the After-math of Planet 4 and the Xenomorph.
David a Creation of the Engineers very OWN Creation (Mankind) has USED the Engineers Bio-Weapon on the Engineers.
A Reversal/Revenge on that could be the Engineers take Davids Creation and USE it on his Creators (Mankind) well they ATTEMPT TOO....
Having them Turn Up at Planet 4 and then THINK...... "Right, you wanna play that Game, how about we take that Little Horror that your Robot Created and we Perfect that and UNLEASH that on your ASS!"
That Teach you Humans to go and PLAY GOD...
They take some Eggs to LV-223... Experiment/Evolve them and Mass Produce them they LOAD UP their Ships... and well WE ALL KNOW what then Happens to ONE of them.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Maybe this could be something, I don't know. I'm kind of worried that this would mean another movie where we would see a lot of David and I'm against that although I'm not against the idea of the Engineers versus humans. The Engineers could eventually have many different weapons such as spaceships, the goo, big guns, and so on, that could be interesting. Perhaps this sounds like an Aliens 2 but I would rather have that than another Covenant. Star wars has space-battles so it could be something like this or at least what we would see could point us into the direction that we could have a battle like that if they would get close to earth even though we would not get a scene like that.
"How FAR would they take their WRATH?"
What if they find that if an android can be that dangerous then they try to figure out who made it and by that the humans are in danger too. What this could mean for mankind is interesting and this also points to the need for human characters, focus on that and less on robots. You mentioned yourself about creation and sub-creation so that means that we need to have the humans there also and not do another Covenant where they were mostly ignored because Scott wasn't interested in it as you can see in the movie. It was almost like he was interested in the androids and thought "oh **** we got to have human characters too" even though that wasn't his primary concern and we got what we got.
David can be in it as much as Ravel and Chance were in Prometheus, at most. He would have a part in it even though it wouldn't be big. I could tolerate this but not more than that about David, but if he would have another big role like in Covenant then I say leave it alone.
Dark Nebula: I like the picture that you attached with the Engineers.
Technically, there is no evidence that Planet 4 is the homeworld of the Engineers.
Technically, there is also no evidence that the Engineers from Planet 4 are ... Engineers, but not just another humanoids who live in another colony/seeded world.
It may well be that Origae-6 may be the homeworld (or abandoned homeworld) of the Engineers. It will be curious if this is a world infected by Aliens. And It will be also curious if David meets the "classic" Alien.
For the purity of the plot, he will find not a living, but a dead or inactive Alien. And then he decides to return with a load of ovomorphs to LV-223. But will crash on LV-426. Of course, Origae-6 may have sleeping Engineers or even Space Jockeys.
Well the LITTLE Plot i mentioned Last would be a OPTION that could be taken to BY-PASS our David completely.
By that the Engineers who return would surely be able to detect DEAD HUMANS... it becomes a Case of WHERE could these Humans come from and this would depend on HOW MANY different Worlds the Engineers had SEEDED our Species.
They would be able to Determine the Juggernaught that DEALT the Death to Planet 4 had came from LV-223 and IF we can Assume those Engineers are aware of LV-223 and its Purpose and that they had Planned to Destroy Earth in the Past. Then they would know they had became Concerned with Mankind from Earth in the past, and i would ASSUME the Earth is the Closest World to Planet 4 that has Humans... they SURELY would Plan a Mission to CHECK OUT our System.
They would also Discover the Workshop of Davids and know that someone had been Experimenting to Create the Ovomorph, so a Option could be that they would look at this and TAKE it to LV-223 to then MASS PRODUCE and Evolve.
Applying a PLOT like this would By-Pass the Need to go after David in order to get the Xenomorph and the Need to go to Origae-6, with Xenomorph Samples from Planet 4 and a Purpose Built Biological Weapons Facility on LV-223 which we can ASSUME is on the Door Step to LV-426 is all the SET-UP we Need to lead to the Derelict on LV-426
The other purpose for this Topic is also to Consider would the Engineers merely decide they have to ONLY go and Destroy Earth? Would they Start to have 2nd Thoughts about other Humans they had Seeded in the Galaxy?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think as we have NO real Confirmation on Screen, they indeed Planet 4 could be Explained as merely a Colony...
The Story is open to Change on Screen because NOT MUCH has been Spoon Fed Explained.
You have got to look at the Engineers as a Advanced Race who have been Traversing the Galaxy for Millions of Years.. IF for example we manage to gain FTL Travel so say its 2150 and we are as Advanced as Humans in ALIEN/ALIENS then in 500 Years after that i would assume WHILE it may be that Earth is where we Originate from... it would be LIKELY that we would in 600-700 Years (if we had W-Y 22nd Century Technology) we would have Inhabited Multiple Worlds and the Earth may NO-LONGER be our main BASE/HUB if you would.
So what i am saying is even IF it was that Planet 4 was where our Engineers First came from, its UNLIKELY its the only World that is used as a BASE/HUB for their Species.
We dont have a LOT to go on Theatrically, even with the Extras.... what we was informed about was that Dr Shaw (in the Extended Scene) said she does not want to go HOME she wants David to take her to where the Engineer told him he came from... take me to Paradise.
So when we loosely look at the Biblical Connection, we have to ASK to who are the Engineers? They are NOT our God, and so if they are more like the ANGELS then this Fits with Paradise because some Angels are Tasked with watching over Paradise (Cherubim) and so Planet 4 could have been what we could call Paradise in that Context.
Which would merely indicate its a Place that our Origins came from. This could be the Place that Humanoids are taken from to then be Seeded on Various Worlds.... Planet 4 could thus be where the Sacrificial Scene took place.
And so INDEED in this Context the Engineers Hierarchy would NOT come from Planet 4
As i have said before THEY could Explore and change our Planet 4 Engineers to NOT be the Engineers but a Sub-Creation, i dont think that RS would have done this though.... but at the Moment his Vision may NEVER be Finished and so its Open to Change.
I know some see the Prometheus Engineers as the Original and there is NO-WAY those on Planet 4 are Engineers, various people who worked on AC had confirmed they ARE our Engineers.... But RS had said also that they are NOT a Race... but a Civilization and so that means we have a Mixture of Humanoids that become essentially a Engineer Culture/Civilizations.
It seems to me the Changes they made from Prometheus would appear to maybe go and show us the LV-223 Engineers are Genetically Advanced Super Engineers.... they could be the Engineer Equivalents of Replicants
I think having Origae-6 be a Engineer World would be a bit too much of a Coincidence. Having it be a World with some signs of Ancient Civilization that is LONG GONE could work though... to indicate this was a Place the Engineers had RESET some Thousands of Years ago.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Curiously, when I watched additional content on AC Blu-Ray - Planet 4 in the comments has been designated Valhalla, not Paradise. Paradise is a place where righteous souls go. Valhalla is a warrior's paradise. What can this information give us?
Could the inhabitants of Planet 4 be "retired" warriors from LV-223 or similar places? And if they are warriors - what did they do? Did they destroy, conquer and plunder other worlds? Did they fight with other clans (factions) of Engineers? Could Earth be created by faction A, and Engineers from LV-223, Planet 4 - faction B? And are the Engineers who created people on Earth different?
Shaw believed the cave painting was an invitation. She was wrong and admitted it. But what was this painting really? It is logical to assume that this was a warning - "don't go there." This coincides with some of the comments for Prometheus, such as: "they learned Spanish, but sailed to the Portuguese." And if the Engineers who created people were the same warriors, then the rock painting takes on a new, third meaning - conquer this place!
I have not seen the Extras yet.... i only have the DVD version.
But indeed maybe we cant overlook the Valhalla connection.
It is after all Connected to the song David chose to play and then also had asked MUTHUR to play for him "Entry of the Gods Into Valhalla"
But then maybe if we look at that Song it depends on which Context we look at it as far as Davids Arc or to Planet 4
I think maybe we also cant be Looking at things maybe too Literally. By that i Certainly mean as far as Paradise/Valhalla in regards to a Literal Place in the Franchise the Spirit/Souls of certain individuals END UP.
Maybe Planet 4 could be a Warriors Paradise many Thousands of Years ago but had NOW changed somewhat as those beings on Planet 4 did-not look like Warriors.
I think if we are looking at the Engineers we maybe have to Consider exactly WHAT would they deem as a Warrior Death but also the Worthy Souls.
If we indeed TRY to connect Valhalla to Planet 4 we have to remember that this is a PLACE that is Located in the Realm of the Gods (Asgard) so maybe in that Context then the Cathedral/Citadel Building that Contains the HALL OF HEADS could be loosely connected to what Valhalla is but would this mean those Hall of Heads are Warriors? Chris Seagers refers to them as the Hierarchy and Ridley Scott as the Apostles, Wise Men and Superior Beings.
We also have the Plaza outside the City, with the Hanger at its Center... this has Numerous Statues of Engineers, and could these be Representations of Fallen Warriors? or those Deemed Worthy?
To me i wonder if they are Statues to Commemorate a Important Significance to some Engineers... those Chosen as Worthy of something... maybe in Honor to Chosen Sacrifices?
It could be the Engineers Seed Life or they Experiment with it some place/places and then they take those Deemed Worthy to Planet 4 to then Interbreed to Create maybe a Gene-Pool that they then USE to select for the Sacrificial Rituals (Sacrificial Goo).
I thought the Starmaps was the Engineers showing Mankind as to WHERE we came from... so i thought that LV-223 was at one time where they would Experiment with Creation and then Seed the Desired Results to Earth.
These Crude Maps had lead Dr Shaw and Holloway to LV-223 but who is to say that they Misinterpreted the Charts.
So when we look at Alien Covenant then from the Advent Vial Video it seems that Planet 4 is located near the Zeta 2 System also.... so MAYBE the Maps was pointing to Planet 4 but Dr Shaw and Holloway took the Prometheus Mission to the WRONG PLACE.
Who knows the Extent and Depths to the Engineers Origins... as Each of the Hall of Heads could represent a slightly different Engineer Species.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Wow @BigDave really awesome topic! Brilliant.
And uh oh, it looks like my personal pet-topic has come up...
With regards to the "do synthetics feel pain" question (because WHY NOT!? Scary movies aren't exactly scary if the characters can't feel pain...??)
I would invite you to go back and re-watch the scene where Bishop gets impaled because to me, the scene depicts pain pretty accurately.
I think as hox said, pain is an important protective mechanism so unless you wanted your robot to get destroyed really easily, you would program it to naturally avoid damaging stimuli.
I think the brain is a physical and chemical object and if you created a replica of the human brain, you could replicate the experiences it produces.
However, I think the synthetics are well programmed in that, they seem to stop feeling pain once they've already suffered a catastrophic injury and are not in a position to remedy the situation (like decapitation or being torn in half...).
ANYWAY, as far as how the Engineers would react upon returning to Planet 4, has anyone considered this possibility yet?
The Engineers return, see the holographic recordings from the ship showing that David released the pathogen, find Walter stranded on the planet, and (believing Walter to be David) take their wrath out on him.
Anyone thought of that yet, hmm?
(My reply got duplicated and there isn't a delete option, so here, have this bonus reply.)