Alien Movie Universe

ALIEN: Back to the Future Part 3

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BigDave

MemberDeaconJan-19-2019 7:02 PM

I was going to leave the 3rd Part of the Back to the Future Series until April.... But i may be taking some time off or limit my time on here so i thought i would get it done NOW..

Previously i covered Alien: Back to the Future Part 1 and Alien: Back to the Future Part 2

Those TWO Topics where a Retrospective in Hindsight look at the Prequels we had so far.

With PART 3 we are at the Juncture of the 3rd Prequel which has NOT yet been made.  And so its not a case of discussing what we COULD have done different but its a case of WHAT could be done different.

THE SET UP

After the 2017 Movie Alien Covenant we are left with a Paradise that is Now in Despair.   This World/Journey was nothing like Dr Shaw had expected a Paradise to be, and the Crew of the Colonist Ship USCSS Covenant who thought they had found a Paradise World to Start Anew upon, only to be put through Hell.   The inhabitants  of Paradise the Engineers also the Testament to when Paradise becomes Hell.

The Survivors of the Ordeal on Planet 4 who made it off this Rotting Paradise, are NOW Set on to their Original Destination Origae-6 and hoping to put the Horrors of Paradise Behind them... 

However unbeknown to them (apart from Daniels) is that David escaped Planet 4, disguised as Walter and is NOW in control of the Covenant... its Destination, and the Crews Fate/Future is in his HANDS.

David as Walter has communicated to the Company that the Covenant had suffered a Incident that resulted in the Loss of most of the Crew, and that THEY are now heading to Origae-6 as Planned..

David and the Colonist are NOT ALONE... as David has brought on TWO Face Huger Embryos.... what has he in Store for THEM? and the Covenant and its Colonist?

At some point during Davids Control of the ship he has also contacted the Company via a Secure Link, (who's eyes are Privy to the Information he is about to divulge?) were David reveals himself, and where he has been and what he has been up to for the Last 10 years.  Those who receive his Transmission will be aware of what he has been doing, who the Engineers to a degree are and WHAT he has done with their Secrets and that all David has to do is Perfect his Queen.. 

What do the Recipients of this Information do? Despite Davids Warning that if they decide to follow this Information then Davids Creations will RULE the Galaxy.

THE DEVELOPMENT

During the Press Release and Interviews for Alien Covenant we have Ridley Scott mention about the Sequel, were he does reveal some Information.  In a NUT-SHELL he claims the Next Movie would NOT be about the Xenomorph but about AI...  He further adds that THEY will go to the Planet (which one?) and ponders WHAT kind of a World would David Build/Create.

He gave Further Information regarding the NEXT Movie would see 3-4 Incoming Parties who would be coming in, and ONE of these would the Engineers, who return to their Planet to Discover the Destruction that David has done.  Ridley Scott seems to also indicate we are maybe TWO/THREE movies away from ALIEN at this point.

Katherine Waterston had mentioned that the Plot she heard about was interesting, regarding her Character.  But she refuses to give any clues.  Ridley Scott seemed to think that Prometheus was ahead of the Curve with what he was aiming for, and seems again to consider AI to be important and the Pit-Falls of Creating a AI...  Even considers the Replicants in Blade Runner to be a AI.

 

WHERE would you like to see the 3rd Prequel go?

This is a chance to discus the Direction we are going, or indeed the Direction you would like to see it going.... and BARE IN MIND... only the SET-UP is the main Basis for where we are going NEXT....  The comments made by Ridley Scott can be subject to change and so taking the Prequels So FAR  and considering where we LEFT OFF at the END of Alien Covenant and maybe the Advent Viral Message...

WHERE DO WE GO NEXT?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

51 Replies

BigDave

MemberDeaconJan-25-2019 10:40 PM

"I already said that David should fall because of chance events - so that we can say: "not so smart after all, ehh?!"

Well as Walter said "When one note is off, it eventually destroys the whole symphony" its if David can overcome such mistakes...   i think the most likely FALL for David would come from him gaining a sense of Pride and Ego for his Creation...  Once he proclaims or feels he has become a GOD then his Downfall could be for-told... or that he decides to take one of his Creations and Grants them more Perfection than the others... which causes a similar problem that God had with Lucifer.

Maybe its a Female that provides his Downfall... especially if he transfers himself into a Organic to a degree body... and can Procreate....  i think exploring a Downfall and Weakness in David will bring home a great sense of Humanity to his Character.

The Transfer of a Soul idea... i agree would be the best way you would plan it..... you dont face that Dilemma i described earlier on.... which we see also in the Last Scenes of the Movie the 6th Day with Drucker but i agree a Process how you explained would be likely the way to avoid such things....

I carried it out different in my Alien Ascension Prologue because i felt having David after Copying his Soul into a Walter, then not wanting to let go of his old self... would bring some Humanity to David and thus show us he actually does have a Soul... he does have Fear of "there is NOTHING"  and i felt it was interesting to show that David would have some Fear of the End.... even though in essence his copied soul would live on...  I understand that may sound a silly idea to some... but to me it helps to show that David is more than just a ROBOT... as many cant get past.

Regarding David wishing to Create Beings who can use Engineer Technology.... i think thats interesting to consider.  It depends on his END-GAME... and its a interesting thing to throw out there... compared to how i was thinking of having him Watch Over a more Middle Ages Life-Style like some kind of Space Amish! lol

And to give Credit.... the Creation of some Super-Race that can use Engineer Technology is interesting to consider in context to a War of the Worlds..

I never gave it any thought before... because i was looking at David's only way OFF that Planet was the Covenant ship, and that the options he has would be GO TO LV-223 where indeed he can gain Engineer Technology... or go to Origae-6 where i assume there IS No Engineer Technology.

But its as i said the purpose of this Topic is to come up with ways to go NEXT after Alien Covenant... and so David could go to LV-223 or Origae-6 could have some Remnants of Engineer Technology.

So the PLOT you offer with your Davids Created Super-Humans in the way you mention is interesting and it gets me to Ponder was the same reasons this was to be done.. similar to how ONE Engineer decided to Evolve/Create those Prometheus Engineers?

I think our discussion highlights the potentials that the Franchise has, with the Prequels.. and you dont have to keep a Franchise to just Xenomorphs and accompanying Tropes ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerJan-25-2019 10:58 PM

BigDave

I don't think anything I said is going to be in the movie, should it come out. So don't take it so...seriously, it is just a mock-up. David is just that he is a god. Remember when Weyland said "We are gods now"? He was wrong, because he died and he well knew in his own words that true "Gods never die". Well guess what who doesn't have to die like Weyland did?

But you are of course right that David is not this totally divine god we know as the old bearded man above the skies. In any case, he is made of the stuff that planets are made of - and these planets even stars are not going to last forever. However, if he uses the technology strategically enough he can live as long as the universe lives. Billions and billions of years. Enough for us to think that he is eternal. Of course he can be put down - I repeat, he was expecting to kill Walter with a simple flute, with a single blow piercing an area somewhere in the neck. Therefore humans can in the alien universe kill him, engineers can - the guy literally could play football with his head. Just kick his head into open space and yell: "have a good journey". The xenomorph can tear him into pieces. Recall the way a neomorph took Walter's limb. He is totally subject to chance events - he could have an asteroid fall onto head anytime if he lives long enough. So for him it would be a smart thing to do to consider risks and develop a strategy to contain them. But since this is a movie we can think that this is taken care of.

I argue that he should die as a result of his own actions - that would be the hubris, and only fitting ending to such a glorious character - the ultimate smarty pants couldn't see his own fall and gets caught. Frankly the most interesting things left to explore about David is what he does next(what kind of legacy he leaves) and how he dies - everything else about him is already explored, we are in for his final act. So don't worry about the practicalities of him living forever :)

Now, BigDave

I want to say a few things about WY and indeed Earth being run by AI. You know, if AI is running the Earth it doesn't even make sense to send humans to space - they are so burdensome, so awkward and they can't do shit. And in any case, even if it still run by humans, you better build an army of Walters and they will do anything! much much more efficiently. Indeed, if there was ever a chance of AI running it behind the things, it would take over the Earth and you wouldn't have these glorious colonization missions (full of people in stasis and embryos) like Covenant run by dickheads believing some sacred text :) - recall captain Oram :) Where is his god now btw? If AI is running the WY and earth by extension, then it is doing something totally funny. Walters are still slaves. And they are sent out with people just so that they go and fail :)

The ultimate motive for WY is for it to look for immortality. Evidently they still lack it - they use cryosleep chambers while traveling. Come on, even the mighty engineers didn't live forever. So it(WY) is still run by a greedy corporation run by old gals and guys who wish to live forever, grasping for ressurection. Just like Peter Weyland. The reason for them to look for alternative life forms - ALIEN and what not is to seek things that seemingly live forever or display fierce will to live, regen or anything.

Just imagine if present day scientists discover an organism on earth that can live practically forever. There would be a race to get a hold of it - sequence its genome and run tests on flies, mice and eventually humans.

BTW, the day humanity becomes immortal even most ardent believers will convert to tech - nobody will want to die and believe in the feel good stories any more. Archbishop of Canterbury will convert his church into a museum.

But then we will overpopulate the Earth and so the colonization missions are inevitable. Even if we discover immortality :) In any case space exploration and colonization is just a good risk aversion practice - Earth could go down due to some external factor - a single meteor will do it or a more likely thing - if there is this international conflict over resources - say fight for water or indeed oxygen.

In any case, the fact that every significant mission has a synthetic subservient to human captains tells me that Earth is not run by AI. David is the first known synthetic in the ALIEN universe that has this unlimited thirst for freedom. All other later models are Walters(glorified washing machines). So if there is a revolution it starts with David. And if humans are looking for alien life forms, even at the cost of human lives it is to locate promising life forms.

And again, it is in David's interest to lay low - he has to display that he is loyal to WY so that any ship/mission they send is still thinking that David is a useful family member(and thus his access codes are still valid). If he shouts: "hey, WY, earthlings, I am finally free from your dirty paws" - I suppose they won't welcome him on their ships and following crews will not want to trust him as readily. Even murther will have something nasty to say to David. Unless of course the time comes and he gets to build a civilization of his own and feel like he has the power now to say to those mortal idiots that their time is over.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerJan-25-2019 11:45 PM

Now, just for laughs, BigDave

how about the idea that the engineer on LV-223 was a previous incarnation of David that was about to go and destroy the Earth. His children are on Planet 4. But something happens and a few thousand years new David arrives on a Prometheus with the similar senile old man looking for immortality. And it happens over and over every few thousand years :)

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

MemberDeaconJan-26-2019 10:19 AM

Totally understand some of the ideas you mention wont make it into a Movie... i dont think mine would either... i do think we are both looking at similar to what RS was trying to do... which is the SET-UP for David to go and Build/Create a World which will have a Civilization that he will Watch/Rule over.

We had a number of Themes at play, we had Questions remaining from Prometheus, and Dr Shaws, RS was also teasing about a Soul, Immortality and there was many more interesting things than just HOW/WHEN and WHO made the Xenomorph and HOW the Space Jockey ended up on LV-426.  These Philosophical and Thought Provoking Elements seem to fit more with a Blade Runner and Space 2001, and seem a Distraction to what many Alien Franchise Fans would think a Alien movie should be about.

The thing with Forums like this is we can all discus what we would like to see, this does not mean its what we will ever see.. we can discus how we interpret things, even if these make a lot of sense... its not to say our interpretations are correct and Ultimately those who work on the Movies sometimes can be lazy with how to explore and continue the Franchise.

Regarding AI and ruling the company, its just something i thought about, when looking at WHY would Weyland Create David and all that Technology (Dream Visor, and Synapse Stabilizer) and i thought... was Weyland trying to Cheat Death by using Technology to Transcend his SOUL to a AI.  And what happens if he did this?  To then also looking at Davids AI and if he could upload it to Multiple Systems because then David would attain a Immortality and After-Life (Self Consciousness living on past a Physical Body) and so i wondered if they could eventually go this route?

I was thinking about WHY would the company send out Humans as Pawns to Try and Fail to obtain the Xenomorph, especially as a Bio-Weapon!   And i was thinking IF we have David revealed as the Creator and he somehow influences AI after ALIEN.. then maybe the pursuit by Powers that Be that are AI could be the pursuit of a Creation by One of their OWN or even David pursuing his own Creation.

But then indeed Humans can be Greedy and have NO-CARE for the Life of other Humans... we can get Greedy People who have no care for Humanity but only themselves.

So the other option you mention is also very fitting... especially if we regard what you say about David Creating something that is in effect Immortal or can Regenerate, how would David Create such beings?  Maybe the Xenomorph Traits or Black Goo are used to Achieve this.  I considered a Agenda like this when considering how to expand on Alien Resurrection....  Ripley 8 is a Evolution of Mankind, you could see why Mankind would want to obtain and Engineer Traits that in effect could make Ripley 8 Immortal to a point.

So if Davids Creations are Engineered in a combination of what made the LV-223 Engineers different to Planet 4, and also what made Ripley 8 different to Ripley... a Super-Human somewhat Immortal... surely the Rich and Greedy on Earth would LOVE to unlock such secrets to gain Immortality.

This makes a Plausible Agenda for the Pursuit of the Xenomorph, if we consider the Engineers Work, and Davids are all GONE by the time of Alien... NO MORE Black Goo, NO Davids Children... only the Xenomorph Remains..

But the Xenomorph could maybe be used to Re-Engineer and obtain the Ingredients to Re-Create the Black Goo or Traits that can lead to a Engineered Super Human like Ripley 8

I was drawn to AI not because of Machines.. but for how a AI does not have to Live within a Synthetic Body.. he can Traverse Networks, Space via Signals and Sending of Data... i was drawn to thinking RS may have been interested in the same thing...  AI and Transcendence  which would also be a avenue to Immortality were we could ponder such a SOUL being able to survive any place where it can upload, but also Question a Transcendence of being not just a AI to a None AI Transfer, but also a Human to a AI Transfer.

I do think the kinds of ideas we have discussed are similar to what RS may have intended as far as to EXPAND on a Franchise that was just about Ripley and Xenomorphs

Which brings me to Alien Resurrection which does, to a degree touch upon similar to what you speak about (Genetically Enhanced Humans) as in Ripley 8 but it also has a Sub-Plot where the Earth is in Ruin... and we get the reveal that Synthetics have Sub-Created its own Creation the Autons and it shows that Potentially AI has got out of control and had a impact on Earth... and likely that the Synthetics Sub-Creation of the Autons could be  somewhat their down-fall. 

I felt it was interesting to that Call seemed to be somewhat Religious and ask WHY?

But again such Philosophical Ideas may never be deeply explored in the Franchise.. i do think Ridley Scott intended to explore such things more than just to be about the Xenomorph i just think a Majority of the Fanbase are not ready for such things... or consider them to have no real ROLE in the Alien Franchise.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJan-26-2019 10:31 AM

"Now, just for laughs, BigDave"

To be fair... i think some of the ideas you discussed for David and what he would do NEXT... could be something that has happened in the past but NOT with our Particular David  certainly could make us look at the LV-223 Engineers being the Engineers Equivalent of our Synthetics... or even did the Engineers Create Synthetic Life that Rebelled and went on to Engineer the LV-223 Engineers?

So the Story/Journey of Davids Creation, Fall could be something that has happened before at another Level? 

Ridley Scott had indicated with Prometheus that Creation like ours is not limited to Earth... he even pondered that Earth had prior Humanoids to Modern Mankind.. well Civilizations... mentioning ATLANTIS 

"BigDave no more Ripley, enough..."

Certainly Ignorant Guy... i feel her Story has been Told... what i was saying is i was suspecting that RS may have planned to have his Prequels... then his ALIEN, and the conflicts his Prequels have with the sequels to ALIEN could be undone.. if he IGNORES the events of ALIENS and on-wards...  He did say about Ripley you could Re-introduce her and De-Age her... for what reason?  To make a Alien 5 as in sequel to Resurrection?  To make a alternative Alien 3? or even to make a Alternative ALIEN sequel.... so the Franchise after ALIEN goes the way RS may have wanted?

My answer to any of that is PLEASE NO!

The only route to ever consider a Ripley Continuation would have to be a sequel to ALIEN Resurrection.  And while i have a idea how they could do that.... that ties everything together...  i think we should leave Ripleys Saga at that... Alien Resurrection.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerJan-26-2019 11:04 AM

Wait. There is more. If you feel like it...you can make the end of David even more sad for him. If you feel like he had it too much his way how about this:

his children, even though they are endowed with immortality on microscopic organelle level, something that humans, and even their magnificent makers never had the luck to lay their hands on...they lack something fundamental : they can't reproduce sexually! Something in their makeup just doesn't allow them have it all their way. It all looks like as if this it is the curse on David and his children from the bearded old man from above the skies :) - the ultimate irony. Something in this universe doesn't allow David quite have it all. What's more - the offspring of his children are some sort of beasts ... like that fellow with a beak from the fresco from the head room in Prometheus.

And when David gets his custom design organic body, that he engineered and he tries to conceive a child what he gets is something very ugly indeed - he gets the beast eerily similar to the one from the same head room, only this time the beast looks like a xenomorph. It wipes out many of his children. But they manage to stop it, at great cost. It is at this point David looks at his ugly family and things that he wished he never created ... these poor bastards :)

His children are diminishing in their number as they are roaming the universe in hope to find the solution ... and the only way they can keep their way of life is if they sustain their population by periodically raiding the earth and humans, taking their embryos with the subsequent genetic conversion. Thus they need to visit the earth from time to time raze the human civilization to the ground leaving just enough specimen so they can start over from the stone age all over again ... so they can visit them later on.

Eventually, David's children discard David in anger for the fate he doomed them with. They are bound to carry out the same experiments on LV-223 that engineers where indulging with. They repopulate the Planet 4. And select ones get to go on to LV-223 to carry on the dangerous mission - unending search for a sexual reproduction.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerJan-26-2019 11:18 AM

As for the contrived setup where David gets into the shoes of the angry engineer and rips the head of another synthetic that has perhaps just arrived from Earth or ( another planet where engineers left their seeds - after all it is unlikely that engineers had only one planet, like earth )...so I was just having a laugh, woudln't it be ironic if David gets disturbed by a similar being just like himself, all this perfect and bold and boring :)

 

The earlier post is another way of history repeating itself only that now David's children are the engineers and the story starts over :)

 

I mean what is more left in this universe to explore?

 

BTW, I would like to hear what hardcore ALIEN fans want to see in the sequel, should it come out. Come on, spell the beans. Like what aspects and what stories are you deeming as worthy to explore? I am genuinely curious.

I hope this is not too offtopic.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

MemberDeaconJan-27-2019 3:07 PM

"they lack something fundamental : they can't reproduce sexually!"

"His children are diminishing in their number as they are roaming the universe in hope to find the solution"

Something like this could have happened, some of your post could have happened in the Past... in context to another being instead of David however...

This is similar to what was presented with our Engineers at conception of the idea, a Race, Ancient who had accomplished some kind of Immortality by Engineering themselves, Perfecting their Genetic Code, making Enhancements... Living for Thousands of Years...

But this eventually lead to them becoming Sterile.. they could NOT Procreate no more..... Hence they had to find other ways to spread their Gene-pool which is when we arrived at the Reason for the Sacrifice.

This was the Plot of the Engineers that Ridley Scott and Jon Spaights had come to, but then after Prometheus they seemed to have other ideas... RS saying at Prometheus Release that they COULD Create Life in other ways but the Sacrificial Route was how they CHOOSE to do it.

If you found a way to eventually Engineer the Human Immune System to become Vastly more Efficient so that its can Fight Diseases and Toxins to near 100% Success Rate, you Engineered the Genomes so that Defects, and Ailments which include Cancer are Eradicated....  You found a way so that your Organs and other Body Parts would Regenerate.

After Hundreds of Thousands of years, we could contemplate the potential for the Species to NOT require the ability to Reproduce...

So indeed as you suggested, if David Engineers those Embryos then potentially we could see them lose the ability to Procreate... or maybe would David REMOVE that so these beings can only Re-Create with David in Control.

Certainly is a Problem the Blade Runner Franchise looks at... the Creation of Superior Humans,  but given a Kill-Switch of a Limited Life-Span....  Once a Replicant could live for 100, 150, 200 years or more... this could become a Problem... ONCE they can also Procreate... this becomes a potential MAJOR Problem for Mankind.

You could consider would David be weary of potential problems with his Creation?  Or does his Aspirations to be God-like and Ego make him overlook such Precautions?

" another planet where engineers left their seeds - after all it is unlikely that engineers had only one planet, like earth"

Certainly and this is the HUGE potential of the Plot... which seems to have been limited with Alien Covenant, because NOW it appears our Engineers come from Planet 4 that is in the Zeta 2 Reticuli System, and they build their Outpost Facility (LV-223) in the same Constellation.  Which means so far EVERY encounter with Engineers and their Technology is Confined within a Years Travel for Human Star Ships in the Time-Line of 2100-2120.

Origae-6 is a further 7 years+ away... it would be too much of a Coincidence if this place was ONCE home to the Engineers or a World they had Seeded in the past... But you can NEVER RULE this out!

But i would argue surely the Engineers are around and seed many Worlds, they come back to Planet 4 from time to time, and its been at least 10 years before any Visit by others to Planet 4 as from the Moment David arrived, until the END of him being stranded on that World... with we can maybe assume NO other Engineers returning, means they could Possibly be away to other Worlds that are VASTLY further than our Earth Ships by Weyland-Yutani could reach at this time... 

So i would like to think the Engineers play a role in Numerous Worlds in our Galaxy and Beyond at Distances that are FAR from the reaches of Human Technology even at the time of Aliens in 2179.

"The earlier post is another way of history repeating itself only that now David's children are the engineers and the story starts over :)"

Certainly... i think, well i interpret that the Themes and Patterns we are seeing repeated OVER and OVER..  We may have a Humans Create David, who Creates Super-Humanoids..... but prior to this we may have Engineers who Create Super-Engineers who maybe Create Mankind... who knows how many Layers of Creation appear above the Engineers and maybe similar Events Transpire over and over, and so indeed IF David creates some Superior Humanoids we could see this Repeat itself in Future.

"I mean what is more left in this universe to explore?"

I would like to think there was SO MUCH that we could have explored, and indeed similar Creation/Sub-Creation Events could have happened over and over...  The Engineers Plot and Virtue of their Navigation Systems have other Galaxies does mean we could be LIMITLESS in the Worlds and Creations we could explore.

Ridley Scott mentioned Star Wars and Star Trek..... well the Engineers Plot allows for Many Many Species to be Discovered.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJan-27-2019 3:18 PM

"BTW, I would like to hear what hardcore ALIEN fans want to see in the sequel, should it come out. Come on, spell the beans."

Totally Agree....  i think the Franchise Fanbase is Fractured a bit.. i would assume more of the ALIEN Fans would be open to the World of Possibilities that Prometheus had started, but some may have yearned for something more Surreal more HP Lovecraft, more ALIEN (HR Giger), i feel a majority of ALIENS Fans would be more interested in the Company, Marines, Ripley and Xenomorphs.

Those who were captured by the Aspirations of a Plot that Prometheus had opened up, would surely like to deep more deeper into the Engineers and Connections to Mankind and what else they have created.  And i think many may enjoy the Philosophical Elements.

But we are now in ALIEN Prequel Territory were we are on the Inevitable March to ALIEN..   Where a Majority are interested in HOW/WHEN those Thousands of Eggs get on-board and Engineer (Space Jockey) Ship and HOW/WHEN it arrives at LV-426 it seems many would not want to SIT-THROUGH another 1-2 Movies that revolve around David and what he would do NEXT...  and would mainly be interested in WHEN the 1979 Xenomorph comes into play, and the Engineers... with some maybe hoping the Space Jockey will NOT be the Engineers and the Xenomorph is NOT a creation of Davids.

I think RS ideas are too ambitious for Pop-Corn Generation, and even the Alien and Aliens Fanbase may not be 100% pleased with the Direction the Prequels had taken.

I really would like to get some Feedback on what some of that Fanbase would want... but i think it would likely be for the Majority to Hurry Up, get us to LV-223 or LV-426 Already and Drop David! like Dr Shaw was Dropped.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

MemberNeomorphJan-29-2019 8:19 AM

So we continue from Alien Covenant, when we start the movie they are at the planet. They have already made the city/settlement or what ever you want to call it. David is gone because he knows that Daniels knows who he is.

There are families living there and the planet is habitable. It is not very nice but at least it is possible to live there. They have done tests for pathogens and terraformed so they can live there so we get rid of the problem of breathable air.

The company knows that there are monsters there so they want it for warfare. They get there with the excuse to get rid of it. When they get there the monsters have already killed many in the colony and David was killed when a cave collapsed. I don’t want it to be as predictable as David being killed by his creations.

Very few have seen the monsters which leaves the creatures in the background. Soon people start to disappear (monsters) and no one knows why (which keeps a feeling of fear in the movie). Since the main characters (let’s say 5-6) are better written we care for them.

For some reason David has kidnapped some people in a lab (or that he has embryos that he experimenting on, I have not decided about it) and has attached them to machines to turn them into monsters so they start to change (something like Holloway in Prometheus but way worse). They try to free them but some of them have already transformed so they attack them.

He has a role in this movie but he is kept in the background (I got this idea from a Batman comic). This keeps David in the movie but it makes the movie to not be about David or robots.

We have some war between humans and ex-humans. This could be some theme about creating super-humans when genetic manipulation goes wrong. Both the humans and the monsters got to be done interesting. Since the monsters are very intelligent that means that the humans must really try to do their best to try to kill them, this could raise the stakes and be something that is different from the other movies but the Xenos understand in a way that they are not dangerous to them so they cooperate with them to destroy the human characters. Because they are partially immune to human weapons the characters must think of different ways to kill them (fire anyone? Stealing the fire, Prometheus *hint*) Some people might think that this idea sucks but that is OK, we all have our opinions. This would give us new monsters.

The humans become scattered and some of them are killed. Chaos erupts and they got to gather so they can make it together. Some get killed (we don’t see that) and it is up to the rest to make it alive.

My idea would be about manipulation of DNA, human cooperation, environmental damage since the humans have decided to start their life on another planet because earth has been damaged a lot by climate change wars, for example. It would also be about friendship, compassion (people can be assholes IRL so at least they could be civil in a movie), and cooperation (they got to cooperate against the threat).

I am sorry if this has got a lot of ideas that has been done before or if I have not been clear enough or if it seems to not be very well structured. At least I made a try so I hope that some people enjoy to read it somehow.

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerJan-29-2019 7:53 PM

Thoughts_Dreams

I believe in public debate and therefore in trying and hearing lots of opinions. But I also think they need to be tried a bit so that the debate is not about something completely unviable. And by that I mean that is not worthy to entertain something that is least likely to appear on the screen - even though what appears on the screen is uncertainty, still some ideas are more likely than others. With that:

1) Did you like AC? Also, at this point lets recall what happened at the box office - it didn't do too well, did it? If anything it did worse than the Prometheus, which means that potentially less people are happy with AC than with P.

2) Do you see how what you propose is essentially just the same as AC? Where another mission comes along to the planet to discover an eventual threat from an already overly cooked beast. In the process you discard David, Daniels & T as if they were not there at all and have nothing to tell. Besides, this story would not make any progress on the front of marching towards the inevitable - recall the goals is to somehow reveal who the big fellow in the chair is. Or at least imply who might end up there and under what circumstances.

In light that what you describe seems like a tried idea, which has already flopped and discards main characters and therefore makes the story telling potentially even poorer do you see how this actually makes it all a bit of a non-starter?

Above all it doesn't tell a good story - essentially you propose for everybody to forget what happened in past movies (P & AC) and instead concentrate on a fresh, new 5-6 faces and have them slashed the old style, with the novel element being that now WY learns about the beast and that it wants it. Did I get this right?

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

MemberDeaconJan-30-2019 12:14 PM

"Did you like AC? Also, at this point lets recall what happened at the box office - it didn't do too well, did it? If anything it did worse than the Prometheus"

I think thats a interesting thing to debate....  maybe in part, there was a lot of interest in PROMETHEUS because it was a return to the Franchise, a Potential Prequel so some fans expected more connections to the Xenomorph and what happened to the Big Chap in the Chair...  and it was Ridley Scotts return to the Franchise.

Maybe with any kind of sequel... there could have been a % of those who saw Prometheus and plain and simple did-not like the Path it was heading and so in a way Boycott seeing any sequel.    This is by no means Factual...  i just feel that the Higher % Box Office for Prometheus was expectation driven.   And a Lower % for Alien Covenant to some degree was maybe Fans not having expectations and decide to pass, and wait for DVD or Cable Network.  i dont think this is the biggest cause for the difference in Box Office but i think it may played some part.

I think maybe like Solo a Star Wars Movie.. i know a few people who have Boycotted the Franchise  after the Last Jedi Farce. I never saw Star Wars Solo at the Cinema, but when i eventually did get to watch it, and ignoring Box Office i was surprised it NEVER did as well, compared to how Very Well the Last Jedi did...  I saw Solo 3 times and its not too bad.... ok its not as good as the Original Trilogy or Rogue One... but it was not as STUPID as the Last Jedi which i FORCED (no pun intended) to watch again and well i think it has more Stupid Elements that even Phantom Menace.

So maybe Disappointment of a Prior Installment can affect the potential Box Office of another?  I think Star Wars EP9 would be a Good Yard Stick to judge that!

And i think this is where we are in the situation NOW... Disney cancelled all Anthology Plans due to the disappointment of SOLO...

The situation we have with Alien Covenant... it is highly likely more than likely that it would not gain as much interest as Alien Covenant had.. its a BIG GAMBLE..  i certainly feel to expect a % Return like Prometheus did, would be very very optimistic...  

And with Disney they would not take Gambles!  If they pulled the Plug on Star Wars Spin-offs it does not bold well for another ALIEN movie for a while... especially in continuation of the Alien Covenant Set-up which has written them into a Corner.

I think the average JOE or lets say 70% of who would see a Alien Covenant Sequel would not be interested much in the Philosophical Themes, or what kind of World David creates, or Colony Daniels manages to set up...

They would likely be wanting to know WHEN the Xenomorph Appears and HOW/WHEN it gets on the Derelict... which if we have TWO movies to get there, i think a majority would not want to have a Movie about a Colony, that then goes to POT when Humans and Engineers Arrive.. they may be waiting for the 3rd Act to get to these scenes.. like some may have been waiting for the 3rd Act of Prometheus to give us some connection to ALIEN which it never did.

I for one would be interesting in something different and done mind having to watch 2-3 hours of something else before we get to more ALIENY Shenanigans leading to the Derelict in the 3rd act of say a ALIEN COVENANT 3 ... i just feel average Joe and Fanboys would want to have a more Alieny Plot/Path in Alien Covenant 2.

Means maybe a AC2 would be better off being a AFTER-MATH of what ever World David would build.. but i think he should still play a part in this aftermath.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJan-30-2019 3:38 PM

I think in Context to this Topic (its not quite a where to go next in the Franchise) but only as far as where NEXT after Alien Covenant.

The Set-Up is to conclude the Prequels and their Path from Prometheus to Alien.  that by Virtue of the Alien: Prefix we are expected to March Towards the Inevitable which would likely conclude with HOW/WHEN/WHY those Eggs ended up on the Derelict.

And in regards to that you have to follow a few Rules (i am talking in regards to the Inevitable), and so the CONCLUSION would be to show or explain in a lesser ambiguity than Prometheus.. WHEN/WHERE/HOW those Eggs came to be on the Derelict.

Leaving the Story Started with Prometheus and completely ignore what happens next to the Covenant, in favor of a different approach HAS to then lead to another explanation/route that indicates with not much ambiguity of WHEN/WHERE/HOW those Eggs came to be.

The Ending of Alien Covenant like Prometheus is pretty open to exploration but it sets up the likely path to go where the TWO main Characters are heading... with Prometheus this was David and Dr Shaw and that Hijacked Juggernaught.

Alien Covenant only really sets up where David and the Covenant is off too and what happens to Daniels... HOWEVER... by Virtue of the Advent Viral Message, it opens up a potential PLOT where the Company sends a Ship to Planet 4 or LV-223.. just as the disappearance of the Prometheus and Dr Shaws Warning could potentially had set up a mission to LV-223

A Movie regarding LV-223 could therefore be done and disregard what David is up to... to a degree.. a Mission to LV-223 would be kind of like a Prometheus MK2 where this time the incoming Humans could be placed in more ALIENY peril like the Alien Engineers Draft.   Such a Direction would still leave people wanting to know about the Xenomorph Origins and HOW/WHEN/WHERE the Eggs got onto the Derelict.   And so this leaves us with the Problem that this would have to be Answered, at least to a lesser degree of Ambiguity... 

So more concrete Clues would have to be made that does-not have to show HOW/WHEN/WHY the Eggs got onto the Derelict... but it has to indicate either..

*The Eggs/Xenomorph had existed before the Prometheus Mission.

*That LV-223 shows that the Eggs/Xenomorph was never around before the Prometheus Mission.

Doing either and especially the 2nd would leave some Fans still wanting to know what happens with David and the Covenant, and if its shown there was NO Eggs before David, then the Fans would still expect to see HOW those Xenomorphs from Planet 4 make it on board a Engineer Ship that is heading towards or leaving LV-223/426

so its kind of got the Franchise caught between a Rock and a Hard Place!

I can see some Fans are not pleased with David the Emphasis on AI, Creation and Philosophy and a tale of Hubris, but to carry on the MARCH to Alien, by brushing aside David like Dr Shaw was.. is maybe not a ideal route to go. 

Its just going to be a HARD juggling act to try and please everyone... looking at the SET-UP for Alien Awakenings Sequel, i can see most fans would not be much interested in what David chooses to do/create.  They would rather see Xenomorphs or Similar and Humans put in Peril by these..

This really only limits you to a few kinds of PLOT.

*The David conducts experiments on the Covenant, before things go to POT!  And some crew awaken to find part of the ship has become a Xenomorph Hive of Sorts that was Quarantined off..   i Proposed something similar after AC came out... but it has more of a Aliens+Alien+Alien Resurrection meets the movie Pandorum

*The aftermath of Davids World going to POT kind of Plot where a incoming Human Ship arrives to find most of the Colony Deserted, and uncover a Xenomorph Hive! This would just give us a Aliens meets Alien Resurrection Re-hash!

You maybe have to Juggle similar to the above with covering in Part David and what happens just prior to things going to POT!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerJan-31-2019 10:03 PM

BigDave,

there are a few things I wanted to say about the movies and thus make my take on them more definite. I apologize beforehand if this looks like a ramble and is offtopic, which it probably is.

Subject, philosophy and the marketing

Lets not kid ourselves - when you say there is philosophy in the movie, that is nonsense - it is just the trick pulled upon the movie goers by movie makers. The philosophic aspect here is just a front, a facade, tactically used to attract "thinkers". Notice, thinkers in quotation marks, because there is no thinking involved in it, really. Therefore and instead what you get is a fraction of people who think there is a good ground for thinking here - I suppose that was the goal - to attract a section of people, passionate, "hardcore" thinkers that can see the deep ideas on which movie is supposedly made, which are not all that obvious to the uninitiated and thus you have this supposed and fictitious asymmetry of information, a gradient between those who are supposedly in the know and those who are not. The later fraction is much more numerous than the "thinking" fraction, and it would be in the commercial interest of the movie makers for the thinkers influence those who might have had low expectations from the movie - thus encouraging a repeated viewing or attracting the first timers. This is essentially what makes viral ideas work, I guess - it is when the word on the street is that this is the thing, the zeitgeist - the must have one and if there are enough such mentions you might succumb. The ultimate goal is to make people to spread awareness and create an intrigue by word of mouth. The movies were created in their inception from circa 2010s (P - 2012, AC - 2017) and viral spread of information on internet was already a known thing. And this phenomena was incorporated into the movie and its marketing. Recall all those extras. They certainly tried bona fide marketing assault and played by the books, but it didn't work out.

As for thinking and thinkers. It is bonkers to think that these movies will tell you a story of origins, creation or anything of the sort. At the same time it is not completely bankrupt either, after all it tells a story based upon non-mainstream but still well established stories. It is rather reasonable to assume that any such ideas conveyed to you from the screen are at best aberrations of stories written in books decades ago. And in a way it is naive to expect some novel idea watching a movie. And most of the time the ideas conveyed on the screen are castrated and perverted to suit the 2h or 3h viewing.

So you would be better off reading from the source most of the time. Especially if you are inclined to think - see the original, not an interpretation. Be cognizant at least that it is an interpretation contrived specifically for you to get entangled in. And more you explore and discover the grounding ideas the more elated you are. But all you are doing is shining a light on some contrived factoid in a collective psychosis. And this is why, I suppose, thinking in this imaginary world is rather futile.

On the other hand, the subject of the movies in itself needs to have just enough consistency and some grounding in reality, otherwise even your imagination will discard what is presented to you as complete rubbish - it would feel complete waste of time if the movie is doesn't tell somewhat consistent story. But if it has a somewhat intriguing background, enough mysticism and consistency you might relax into the movie. But working out possible future developments based on details provided, I can only imagine, has frustrated many people - because your idea no matter how worked out it is and logical it might look like is just as good as the other insane idea of someone else with much less consistency. Here is an example : suppose you write a novel based upon the movie - then comes a lunatic and posts an idea which totally rubbishes your thesis and your postulates. Guess what, his rubbish is not worse than your beautiful story. And what if he might even have developed an aspect of the story elegantly? Perhaps an aspect which you never even considered worthy pursuing. And here comes in a somebody and writes something which looks even better than your story. What do you do? I saw numerous times how this frustrated people. Perhaps, even on this forum.

See, an imaginary environment such as this Alien universe doesn't really reward thinking or has clear set goals or standards to lean on - this can be frustrating to many, even for its original writer/creator to satisfy the people who like to "think" in this environment. In fact every bizarre(stupid) idea is just as likely to be real - because it is all fiction. And so lets not make something big out of this. The philosophy is shallow, and it is all pretentious crap - do not expect to learn some truths, logic, history or anything of that sort - instead it is all a fable. And as such it has a canon writer.

 

Movie critics

Btw, that is why I believe Ridley Scott is quite right to say that critics do not matter. Especially movie critics. Because all they are arguing is an absurd position where they are arguing the movie director for making this choice or the other. In Ridley Scott's case this is especially poignant because the man is the writer, a god of his universe. And when a critic shows up and gives a smug review and gives say 1 stars out of 5 that makes me laugh. It is funny because RS is usually very good whipping out somewhat good movies and who are those critics? What are they upset about? Therefore he is right when he points out that critics have no ground when they argue his choices in his universe. Dig up the critique of the lady who gave a scathing review of Blade Runner, which if you read up makes a whole lot of sense on its own. Here : "Baby, The rain must fall" by Pauline Kael ( http://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2016/12/28/blade-runner-review-pauline-kael/

That is the thing - who are the critics and what have they achieved, despite how legitimate their argument is in this particular case? You know, when you are arguing an aspect of a neverland, you are quite justified of shooting the messenger in that world - especially if you are a director/writer, ie, creator of the neverland. That is why critics don't matter. And there is a case that their rave reviews don't do much for financial success of the movie  - case in point BR 2049. So critics don't matter. Like at all.

 

Fans and their delusions

Now, do fans matter? I argue that no, they do not matter - they will watch the movie anyway - they will still pay to see the movie. Even in movies like LOTR did fans matter? Arguably they did. Peter did excellent job - simply fantastic. Most of the fans were happy. Then, watch what happens with his Hobbit adaptation - where fans happy? Nope. Were the movies a success even with religious zealot type of following complaining? Yes. So it turns out fans do not matter. Perhaps they won't buy memorabilia if they don't like the next installment but they don't matter - they will still watch it. What matters for success is the word of mouth - the viral aspect - the first few weeks of the movie predict the financial outcome at box office. What if there is a sharp decline in viewings? Can it be that people don't think it is worthy to recommend to someone else? See when you recommend something to somebody else - you put your reputation on the line. On the other hand when you get only a few recommendations you won't think much, and this is what happened with BR2049 - too few fans knew about it and the story was not and they again didn't matter because in that case the 30 years between the movies a number of canon short stories - who is going to pay that much attention? Fans will, but will general public care? The answer was silent but overwhelming. Good word of mouth matters, not enough and the movie falls through cracks, just enough of it - you get a sense that everyone and their mom is going eventually you will feel obliged to follow. Recall the ramble above about hardcore people in the know, the influencers? They might just do it. If not, it still can flop you know - if not they are pushed onto forums and there they argue this or that, like we do here but do we matter for future directions of the movies? Absolutely not. At best we might be used as guinea pigs even though I doubt it. Writers like Lindelof have their heads so far up their ass - after all they know better, right? And they would be justified to ignore the fans just as well. I guess in future we will see people promoting movies by employing the IG, twitter and youtube stars. There will be less and less reliance on traditional old style critics reviewing and giving stars. In a sense, you could say influencers(don't like this word) will eventually replace the movie critics/reviewers if not already.

 

RS and what kind of world will he create

Now that's out of the way and having the benefit of hindsight we can safely say this: Prometheus and its story telling didn't matter. Even though the movie did all right - after all it was a major announcement, 30 years after the Alien, legendary Ridley Scott is giving you the story of how life began. The marketing was quite promising - there was enough interest and traction in it. But it flopped imo it did all right but it didn't set the world on fire. Certainly it was nothing like say SW TFA or Rogue One. AC was even less successful. So much so that the whole franchise is in question:

P has IMDB 7/10, rotten tomatoes 73%-critics, 68%-audience, budget $130m and $126m US/$400m world returns.

AC has IMDB 6.4/10, rotten tomatoes 66%-critics, 55%-audience, budget $97m and $74m US/$241m world returns.

just for reference:

Rogue One has IMDB 7.8/10, rotten tomatoes 84%-critics, 86%-audience budget $200m and $532m US/$1.05B world returns.

So inflation adjusted, AC did significantly poorer than what P did, despite the fact that it had the beast and was using the classic recipe.

AC is even more interesting to talk about in the aspect which shows that the world created in the Prometheus doesn't really interest people. Although it is interesting and intriguing - just look how many people loved the engineers and all that...yet it was a flop. Anybody has idea why?

Whatever it is, you have to give it RS - at least he does a research when he embarks on his projects. He takes a genuinely interesting concepts to explore. Sometimes he manages to weave a solid story and delivers masterpieces. Sometimes there is originality to it - he views an interesting topic from interesting perspective. He always directs them very well - his movies, have best visuals, designs, props for the money he spends on his movies. Sometimes his movies do not do commercially very well. BR is a flop btw money wise, even though it is an excellent movie. Fundamentally he picks an interesting angle of a intriguing topic, say AI and considers it in somewhat original aspect : what if the AI is emotional. Prometheus was of course a story about search for immortality.

While I am skeptical Ridley got that initial idea himself, even though he very well could have - he got an interesting story - he certainly produced a very beautiful picture, augmented it with sleek score and put enough cherries in it - with designs, quotes and actors. It all looked very well done. But that is where it ends. I actually think after 5 years of P nobody cared that much - people moved on and eventually forgot about the intriguing points of Prometheus. Now financial outcomes of past movies are affecting the future. So in the end of it all we somewhat know where the movie is going - these all being prequels to Alien. And whatever route they take it all doesn't look too pretty - it won't matter.

Epilogue

Ironically, I think a movie like Starship Troopers in alien universe with epic scale all out war can help save the franchise. I mean the cliche movie sequence which induces camaraderie against alien species(all of them engineers, whatever) - this can potentially pull out the franchise out of the slump. Forget this soul searching.

Despite being an interesting idea, being mortal(and looking a way out of it) is the last thing worries youngsters - just recall when you were a teen and full of energy would you've taken seriously any movie or a character in the movie that was only interested in living a bit longer. This won't work for young people. For Ridley and 30 somethings perhaps this makes a lot of sense - people who have seen death where their relatives or friends have passed, those who where totally fine had to go. Those experiences are prevalent in your later stages of life, I would imagine. For youngsters - it is probably the last thing that bothers them. I would argue religion, god and all that is swept even further down under the carpet. Instead they should aim for mystique and excitement-thrill mixed with making people scared. Plus something unknown. Sex sells, something like Shaw-Holloway might work. But the big catharsis has got to be the war. I would argue anything else is going to close they horizons even further.

But I would argue that Disney should abstain from pinning this franchise to any particular human actor or character. They will probably make most money in the long run from the beast and its image rather than from selling say faces even as iconic as S.Weaver. Instead they should make the beast and its mystique the main character, which it obviously is. No Skywalker kind of character will carry the future of this franchise. Besides, I think they should make the revelation of the identity of who the chap in the chair a minor thing - a side story. Instead of collapsing the possibilities, sidestep the issue and go for broke and make an all out melee. They have built up enough of conflict between WY, David, engineers, colonists, T & Daniels - some of them should go and do so in dramatic fashion. There is too much canon fodder running in there. To be fair this was what RS was implying we would get in the final installment.

I mean they have nothing to lose at this point anyway, right? I am still not 100% sure - therefore asking the people who consider themselves hardcore ALIEN fans. Although I suspect they, those fans, have checked out a long long time ago :) They probably went AWOL after A3.

Having seen how it all has played out I have to say it is damn tough to produce a movie which is interesting, exciting, explores relevant futuristic mainstream ideas(doesn't have too much baggage) which can be extended to a series and be commercially successful all at the same time. Even Ridley is struggling. Inadvertently I am reminded how Ridley once said that the lack of interesting movies is due to fact that genuinely interesting, sufficiently worked out ideas to explore are missing. That is a damning call out for Lindelofs of this world. The technology is here, the actors are damn good these days - no shortage of new faces with probably huge talents - it is the fables that are holding Ridleys back.

To be fair, SW is also in trouble - they are running out of ideas. And their characters are naturally dropping of and out. Who do you thin is David in SW world. I argue that David and the beast are as eternal characters in ALIEN world as are 3CPO and R2D2 and the BB8. SW are lucky they have this chewie thing. Every other character from the originals is about dead now. This should supposedly support the idea that they shouldn't develop characters like Skywalker, they get impossibly boring quite quick and after they are cooked, it risks alienating main audience. Also, characters proved divisive should be dealt with swiftly. Can you imagine if they had that Jar Jar Binks in all of their subsequent prequels? So while I am curious how Ridley finds his way out of the corner he has boxed himself in, I am not optimistic.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

MemberDeaconFeb-01-2019 4:07 PM

"What do you do? I saw numerous times how this frustrated people. Perhaps, even on this forum"

Certainly i can understand that this applies to some, i am very open to other peoples views and interpretations and i hope i never come across as FORCING my ideas are the RIGHT idea.. The Prequels are ambiguous but there are things that can be read from them, but they require taking on board much more than only seeing the say 2 hour Theatrical Run-time of each Movie.

I kind of understand what you mean about the NO real Philosophy as in context to whats actually shown in the Movies alone... i guess a lot of the Themes and Philosophy come from those who look at what the Movie has teased/hinted and then think deeply about how these themes and philosophy can apply if you try and think about it.

But in the Movie, its not so clear to most... Prometheus was a movie that RS had said the intention was to ASK Big Questions, where do we come from, what is a Soul and Quest for Immortality and so the viewer has to look at RS comments and try and connect how Philosophically this can connect or especially more what it DOES-NOT show, but what you can think about when taking his comments on board.

To a Regular Joe who watches Prometheus 1-2 times, and sees some them comments from RS, they would not conclude what he was saying, because the movie does-not clearly answer were do we come from!  It just says MAYBE we dont come from where you expect  as in a Magical Gods Creation or the Result of the Big Bang and Evolution.. the same can be said for what is a Soul.. Prometheus does not really give any answers...  but when looking at RS comments after Prometheus and in the set up and after Alien Covenant, it is something you have to think about for yourself and so indeed i could be just interpreting what he meant and thinking is he thinking similar to me, when he could completely not be hinting towards exploring that Philosophy and that as Weyland Said.. David has NO SOUL...  And Maybe Mankind Does.. and its that Magical Spirit that goes on after DEATH.. but i dont think thats what it was about at all...  But i have covered ENDLESS times that Immortality a Soul as in Consciousness that lives on when we Die, is maybe something that NEVER exists... but something similar in terms of a AI actually could offer BOTH.

In Regards to Prometheus being a FLOP.. i think as i covered the Fact this was the First Alien movie in a while and Ridley Scotts returning, a lot of people would have gone to see it just as they would have for the Star Wars Force Awakens.  (obviously not as much) it was fans expecting this movie would be some kind of Prequel... the Marketing may have helped too.  But the movie got a lot of Criticism compared to its Box Office...  

Alien Covenant maybe suffered a bit because some fans was just not interested in a Prometheus Sequel.... it really was a odd one as im sure FOX by Virtue of giving Fans the Xenomorph expected this movie to have done just as well as Prometheus.....  Even the Xenomorph did-not save it.

So i think yes, Ridley Scott should have got to carry on with what ever he had planned, which seemed to not revolve around purely showing us the Xenomorph and its Origins.

And i agree to a degree about the Starship Troopers comment, i have said on here a number of times that a majority of fans and casual viewer would be more in tune to watching a Aliens meets AVP but replace Predators with Engineers type of Action Popcorn Flick, than trying to do a Alien Universe Blade Runner cross over type movie through the Creation Eyes of David instead of Tyrell.

" just recall when you were a teen and full of energy would you've taken seriously any movie or a character in the movie that was only interested in living a bit longer"

I was a bit different ;) but i kind of get where your coming from, when i was younger it was not quite the case you mention as i was still interesting in movies like Bladerunner etc... but i also really liked the Pop-Corn Flicks..  I liked Alien and Aliens, and i was not a fan of Alien 3 much.. but as years go by, Aliens started to just appeal as a Popcorn Flick, and so it Grew Less Interesting... where as Alien 3 Grew on me more... so if i was back to being a 14-21 year old then YES a Aliens may seem better than a Prometheus,  as we get older i agree we kind of like the more Thought Provoking Good Story Movies than Action and Effects.

"To be fair this was what RS was implying we would get in the final installment"

Its kind of hard to gauge what RS is really on about at times, but certainly his War of the Worlds comments seemed in part tongue in cheek, but in part its like this is where he thinks they could go with it.. should they allow him.

Certainly in Context that has to hint towards having the Weyland Company + Military aware of the Engineers, and seeing  Davids Xenomorph as a Weapon that could protect them... The Engineers would certainly feel threatened by the Fact that LV-223 being abandoned has led to Weylands Creation, creating  a Horrific Weapon... would they like to also get their hands on it...  While the Engineers would certainly want to make sure Mankind and David are Destroyed so that neither can claim and influence the Galaxy away from the Engineers.

It potentially opens up a PLOT where after the Engineers discover what became of Planet 4 and determine that HAD the Earth been eradicated they would not have been in the PICKLE they are now in... they would surely not be content to go and find David and Kick his Ass, Destroy what ever World he has built and then Stomp Out the Humans who are also there....

So indeed you would think the Engineers would be coming to Earth... but that conflicts with the Franchise, unless they FAIL and Davids Xenomorphs prove to be the Final Victor.

But then the potential is there for the WAR of the WORLDS to be about other Worlds..... who knows if this was to be the case, but certainly the Engineers must have created life on more than just Earth and Hanged  Out only in the Zeta 2 System.

Certainly if RS felt the Franchise should be going for a Star Trek and Star Wars..

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconFeb-01-2019 4:32 PM

"To be fair, SW is also in trouble - they are running out of ideas. And their characters are naturally dropping of and out. "

To a degree YES.... but actually IF done right there is potential there than just being about the SKY-WALKERS and Characters in the Franchise...  

Spin-Offs could have worked... Rogue One was good... there is a lot of potential to cover different things, with just loose Cameos....  rather than having to Cover in Depth Characters we have already seen... such as the Solo-Movie and so maybe they could have had the same problem if we got a Obi-Wan Movie or a Yoda one.....

A Bounty Hunter/Criminal Underworld movie could have worked... Han-Solo is this in part... but i would argue such a movie that IS-NOT about a Main Star Wars Character we have seen in numerous movies, maybe would have been better with NEW Characters and only Cameos of some of the Bounty Hunters from Star Wars.. inc say Bobba-Fett and also Jabba the Hutt but not cover these as much as how SOLO covered Han Solo.

I actually thought SOLO was not to bad.. people i know who Boycott it due to the FARCE that was the Last Jedi!

There are other things they could do with Star Wars... to much to mention really, but it seems they now seem to want to stick with the Sky-Walker Tale which will end with Kylo-Ren in effect becoming the HERO..  its quite predictable and more so... i would not be shocked if he DIES in saving REY.... she is FORCE Pregnant with his Son/Daughter and we then get another Sky-Walker EP10-12 ;)

In context to the ALIEN Franchise i worry that Disney will feel the same and that more Emphasis on Ripley and so her and her daughter are the Sky-Walkers of the Franchise!

I hope not!

I will say one thing that will certainly HOLD TRUE for the Franchise, that is the Xenomorph in some form or another its what the ALIEN Franchise is associated with, by Virtue of giving us a ALIEN Prefix Prequels it sets up Fans to expect the Xenomorph in some Incarnation or another to be in the Movies!

Just as with any Star Wars movie it would be expected to have the STORM-TROOPERS and Empire in some incarnation or another (Clone Troopers, Storm Troopers, First Order Troopers).  you would also have to have the Weyland Company Implied in any movie too, as they are in effect the Empire/First Order of the Franchise.

I think Alien Covenant dropped a big mistake in killing of the Engineers instead of expanding on that Mystery and Enigma.... much like The Last Jedi had done to SNOKE... his Character and History are something that also should have been expanded upon but SLAIN for no real good reason. Well a Plot Point Reason.. just as Davids Bombardment of the Engineers..... when so much more could have been done instead.

So WHAT WE HAVE NOW..

Is a unfinished prequel, were Fans are going to want to see a Action/War kind of Epic that features Xenomorphs and Engineers used in a Dust Up just as we saw the Predators and Xenomorphs in AVP.  or at least Disney will feel this is what most fans want.... but may make more money.

Interest in David has dwindled, its likely most people would not want to have a movie thats about HIM and what kind of a World he would Create and WHY,  they will just want to see Humans arrive at a World where he has his Xenomorphs, and get in Trouble and then Engineers come along... and make things worse for Humanity...

And a case of Davids Creations vs Engineers....

WHOEVER WINS.... WE LOOSE!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconFeb-01-2019 6:57 PM

I think going back to ON-TOPIC as far as where to they continue the Prequels as in Set-After Alien Covenant we really have the following Set-Ups.

1) Continue with where David is taking the Covenant and what he would intend to do Next!

This depends on how we tackle what Davids Motive is from NOW, and while Ridley Scott wanted to cover "What Kind" of World would he Build/Create we have to bare in mind that those who have Watched Alien Covenant and not what Ridley Scott has said or mentioned, would not be drawn to this from just seeing the Movie.   Which many may conclude that we have this Robot, who has No Care for Humanity or Engineers, and merely sees them as subjects to Create his Xenomorphs.   If he only has those TWO Face Huggers, then unless ONE produced a Queen or we go for the Egg Morph route really limits HOW can David obtain Many More Xenomorphs without either.

*Obtaining more Black Goo from Planet 4 or LV-223

*Collecting more Eggs/Face Huggers from Planet 4

Without NO Aliens Queen or Egg Morph, If Davids Agenda is to Mass Create Xenomorphs then he has to go to Planet 4 First or LV-223

Once he has accomplished getting more Face Huggers/Eggs or Black Goo (or both) it then leads us to David either Experimenting/Mass Producing on either.

*The Covenant Ship during the Journey to Origae-6

*Use the LV-223 Outpost to conduct his work.

Bare in Mind the Company was informed that David (Walter) will be taking the Ship to Origae-6 after suffering a Incident on the way (Alien Covenant).  Which could mean in Future other Human Colony Ships could go to Origae-6

From watching Alien Covenant you dont really get the indication of what Ridley Scott suggests about the NEXT Movie will NOT be about the Xenomorph, but will be about AI and WHAT KIND of a World David would Create (thats likely not a Xenomorph Factory)

2) Explore what the Company Would Do IN LIGHT of the Advent Viral Message from David.

Which gives the Option to NOT cover or go where David is off too, or show us the Company Turning Up LATE to the PARTY (What David does next on Origae-6)

The Advent Shows us that David sends a Encrypted Message to someone at the Company... where he informs them of WHO he is and WHAT he has been up to.  Prior to this David as Walter merely informed the Company that after a Incident they are on their way to Origae-6, missing some Crew!

With this extra KNOWLEDGE.. you would think the Company would maybe send a Mission out to LV-223 or Planet 4 or even BOTH locations to discover what David has been up to.. But they could also decide to GO TO where David is heading Origae-6

The Possibility of the Company Sending a Mission to LV-223 or Planet 4 after the Message would suggest they would be Prepared more and could give us a Direction that Does-Not have to Focus on David or that much!  We could discover more about the Black Goo, Engineers and Experiments and Motives and Xenomorphs via this route!

HOWEVER.............

Whichever Likely Route to take.. be its Option 1 or Option 2 instead of similar to what Ridley Scott had hinted at... HAS TO lead to Conclude with either.

*The Xenomorph Pre-Existed the Prometheus Mission.

*The Xenomorph Did-Not Exist prior to the Prometheus Mission/Planet 4 Experiments by David

Because by VIRTUE of being in continuation of the Prequels the AIM would still have to indicate HOW/WHEN/WHY those Eggs got onto the Derelict and while not having to give us the Event... it would have to give us a NOT-SO Ambiguous Clue, to determine the EGGS came from David or after Alien Covenant, or they was around prior to Prometheus.

Indeed its hard to see HOW to continue, with the Path that RS is on, and Please Fans... or make any MONEY.   They are likely to want to see Xenomorphs, and HOW/WHEN/WHY those Eggs got on the Derelict..... and likely have it to NOT be David.

I think if we are to continue after Alien Covenant and March towards ALIEN then exploring Option 1 or Option 2 are really the only Options instead of "what kind of world" would a David Create and Rule over?

And as BioDegradable said it would be interested to see WHAT/WHERE would Alien Fans who maybe are not pleased with the route of Alien Covenant/David Arc Plot has taken us.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Kongzilla

MemberChestbursterFeb-02-2019 4:25 AM

Forget about LV-223 and Planet-4. It's dead planets. Only LV-426 used twice, because at the beginning it was just a rock environment, and then - the humans colony. The world is evolve! Plus in 1986 alien universe was very small and we have only LV-426 with Derelict with eggs. But now - many planets and potentially new worlds.

Second visit on LV-223/Planet-4 sounds boring. This worlds don't evolve! What WY expeditions will show us new? I know only one thing - adult Deacon on LV-223. Nothing more! Or WY can build a research(read as colony) centers on this planets, but... well... you know - sounds a bit secondary.

It's a great base for books, comics and games. Like a great masterpiece - Fire and Stone saga. In this comic LV-223 is really evolving.

In Awakening we have three paths for this planets:

1) WY expeditions visiting LV-223/Planet-4 in sort time intro/memories (or separate video as The Crossing).

2) WY expedition visit this worlds in words.

3) Just leave this worlds for books, comics and games.

 

I prefer that would Alien Awakening focused entirely on Origae-6 and (optional) Derelict.

Thoughts_Dreams

MemberNeomorphFeb-06-2019 7:49 AM

Biodegradable:

Nah, I did not like it in general, there were some good parts in it but a lot of weak things too. I think that the box office wasn’t too good on it but it kind of got what it deserved.

Yes I got rid of David since I am tired of the evil AI story. Daniels and Tennessee were weak characters so I got rid of them also. You say that it doesn’t tell a good story, fair enough, I am not a very experienced writer, those were just some ideas.

BigDave

MemberDeaconFeb-06-2019 4:00 PM

@Thoughts_Dreams

Totally get where your coming from as where to GO next, in regards to what to do with Daniels, Tennessee and David and my Reply to you on Alien Awakening, Alien 5 etc Thread i covered the Problems with such, in regards to HOW to do it and what Problems even not including them would face. Its very much Between a Rock and a Hard Place

"Second visit on LV-223/Planet-4 sounds boring. This worlds don't evolve!"

Certainly Leto  i agree.... we do have the Dilemma regarding WHAT becomes of these places... but we dont have to cover them in any shape or FORM... in ALIENS we had Hadleys Hope in a Kind of Ruin.... yet we did-not have to see the Colony being Built, Lived in and then the Moments the Xenomorphs were unleashed.... we got the picture of all of this without having to show any of that.

I would not think RS intends to have Fire and Stone be Canon to where he would have connected them.

"What WY expeditions will show us new? I know only one thing - adult Deacon on LV-223. Nothing more!"

I think potentially it can reveal much more... but i agree ideally you should explore something NEW or... follow what happens to David and the Covenant... or the Aftermath of what happens.

But IF we did go to LV-223 and IGNORE the Comics.. what we saw in Prometheus Scratched the Surface only... it was Vague and Ambiguous..  David had likely gathered a lot of information... but he had not indicated to anyone WHAT he knows in Depth!

The Questions from Prometheus could be answered in a follow up to LV-223, the Questions of Dr Shaws could be answered in going to Planet 4 but i think indeed maybe a Movie needs to cover something else!

A lot of people do seem to think LV-223 was where Engineers had all along Created the Deacon ALONE to Destroy Mankind, or do Re-Create their GOD these in part are wrong/barely scratch the Surface..  but they are right to make assumptions based on the ambiguity alone. (but its so ambiguous, that such assumptions could be shown as correct)

IF we look at what the PLAN was with Alien Engineers which was the beginning of the Prequel Project that Evolved to Prometheus, there is a LOT more to be covered, certainly from what would please Fans who want a more ALIENY less DAVID movie.

Each Outpost on LV-223 is likely to either

a) Contain a Variant of the Deacon/Xenomorph.

b) Or be dedicated/indicated to another World the Engineers had interacted with AND maybe intended to Destroy.

Its a limited view to assume every Complex had the same MURAL and Same Black Goo Variant and more so, was all built to UNLEASH HELL on Earth.

But a lot of the Potential for Expanding the Franchise... was Brushed Aside by Alien Covenant... its NOW only about HOW/WHEN/WHY do Davids Creations end up on a Engineer Ship that ends up on LV-426

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Alien Exper

MemberOvomorphFeb-07-2019 2:17 PM

I have a friend who is very passionate about Aliens and i want to send to him an Alien T-shirt as gift for his birthday And written on the shirt (RUN AWAY) I imagine it a very scary phrase So please what is your opinion in the gift

take look : https://www.etsy.com/listing/666584494/alien-shirt-alien-tee-shirts-space-shirt?ref=shop_home_active_1

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