The DAVID Dilema16,157 Views166 RepliesAdd A Reply
It appears to be a MAJOR sticking point with the Role that David has within the Franchise. While Micheal Fassbender's Synthetic Companion to Peter Weyland was the Stand Out Character in Ridley Scotts Prometheus it appears for a lot of fans for Some Reason or a Few others, the Character of David has Fallen from Grace that was his Performance and Character in the First Movie.
Is the Fall Out merely because HE is now the Creator of the Beloved Xenomorph?
Was it a how the Studio and David had take away the Protagonist Dr Shaw from us all?
Was it the way his Character had Changed from Prometheus to Covenant?
Is there a way to get back on track and improve HOW the David Character should be explored next?
Has he already taken up enough TIME within the Franchise's Prequel Saga?
Is it Fitting that David Reaches his End in the Next Movie (Assuming if One was made), and if so should he come to his End at the Climax, or Beginning?
And IF we Do-Not see David or Walter Return how does a Sequel to Alien Covenant Cope?
Where does it Carry on without Fassbender?
IF he does appear in the Next Movie but thats his Last Appearance but the Prequels are NOT Finished by then... then who and what Character is the Main Lead Torch Passed too?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@BigDave, "which seemed to be why just killing her off was a bit of waste to some." Just a bit off a waste? Are you kidding. I've seen quite some comments on the Youtubes of type: "My interest for the series died with Shaw", so maybe your's an understatement.
And I repeat myself, with the exception of Cubed (and now Covenant), the series was not nihilistic. Everyone who dies is either stupid or can be a hero. Maybe there is an audience for such total nihilism, but that is not a place where to make a large profit.
“Indeed I just read that last act in the wake of your comments and I found it uninteresting because the proposition was so hackneyed whatever its pace.”
Your own stuff or a book based on Alien Covenant? I am not sure which one that you mean, sorry.
I think that there were interesting things about Prometheus, I just think that it could have been better done on-screen. What is interesting is that a lot of people probably find different things to like about it which makes the movie interesting. P is not something that I love or hate I find it being OK with a lot of holes so to speak. There are things that I like about Prometheus while other things are just bad so that makes it an average/OK movie that I can watch now and then but there are some Alien movies that I think are a lot better (the first three). I will take Prometheus over Covenant any day, honestly.
The whole Alien Franchise is filled with different things so it would be no surprise that people find different things to like or dislike. This is something that should spark interesting discussions, not some fingerpointing. What some people write here I just react to it like "nah" while I totally agree about other things but that is alright.
“… I have put the meaning of the Derelict Juggernaut right at the top of the hierarchy of thank god it never got where it was going.“
That seems interesting, it is kind of close to when the Engineer ships leaves in the beginning of Prometheus right before the Engineer drinks that black liquid. When I watch that scene I kind of wonder where they went to after that. What did they talk about those Engineers that left on the plane? Where were they going? That to me is a mystery so it is interesting to think about those kind of things. Scott is good with the visuals and that whole scene looks very good.
Ah the Derelict, that is interesting that it still makes people think so many years after the movie was released. They did a really good job when they get into the ship with the lightning and how they created the whole atmosphere. It is not a lot of action there but it works because of the characters, pacing, and how it looks there. My own reaction in a situation like that would probably be: better safe than sorry.
“David in his current arc cannot act as our proxy indeed we should all be baying for his A I lubricant.”
They messed him up, burn him to the ground or at least reduce his role in the movie. What do you mean with the AI lubricant thing anyways?
Good then let it take its time, I do not want another David movie. I sort of lost interest in that after Alien Covenant because he was portrayed as a very unlikable character.
“*The David Creates the Xenomorph Angle.
*The over Emphasis on his Character being the driving Force of the Prequels much as Ripley was for the Alien Franchise.
*His Character Arc/Evolution compared to what he was in Prometheus.”
Oh I totally agree, these are what annoy me most about it. These are the things that they have got to change if I will be interested in another Alien prequel. I am not sure how they will make people interested again given that AC was not very good at all.
I did not care one bit for Shaw in Prometheus but I would have liked to see more about the Engineers but unfortunately they were killed in Alien Covenant (unless there are other Engineers elsewhere). Shaw in the Crossing was alright. This might be something that Scott and I would have agreed on that they should not have been getting rid of the Engineers in Alien Covenant. Maybe Scott would have liked some more of them if it would have been closer to what he wanted the movie to be. Give me more Engineers in the next movie if there will be one.
“And so what HAPPENS if they decide to not have David as the Creator of the Xenomorph.... do they show us this because they cover his Creation more and show us clues/answers that show its a Knock Off?”
I can think of things that I would rather see namely:
• The Engineers made the Xenos from the Goo or
• The Xeno is something that the Engineers found and developed maybe by using the goo
• Maybe they found it at some other planet where there was another civilization but they stole it (not very likely)
All of these are more interesting than having David being the creator of it.
The do not need to introduce the original Xeno if they show us clearly that David made his own version. We have seen the Xeno in many movies so even if they decide to have it there they could use it for one scene which is fine if they use most of the time to get well made characters and things that make sense to the story. I am not even sure if we need to see it that much because to me at least it did not bother me that much in Prometheus since we got new monsters which I think was interesting.
“I think its not a case of getting rid of David... but i do think they have to find some middle ground, to try and please those who liked David or have hopes for his Character, and those who have lost interest or never had any in his Character.”
Give him a lesser role and less screen time and use that to focus on the engineers and well made human characters.
“I think a lot of Fans are hoping for Xenomorphs, that are NOT created by David, and also seeing the Engineers or another Race who are more Bad-ass to come into play and become the Space Jockey.”
That would be great. The Engineers could be those where one is the SJ but they have to be better done and make sense. I think that the SJ should be more like the Engineer in Prometheus compared to those that we saw at the plaza in Covenant because they looked mostly like peasants to me. Sure they probably were parts of the Engineer society but they did not look as scary as the Engineer/war-pilot in Prometheus.
“… which if a Handful are done RIGHT and they survive until the 3rd Part of this New Alien: Prequel Trilogy maybe it could work?” - BD
That would be great, it would be really good I would probably be like “Yes! They finally got it !” It is like a hockey game when two are not very good and then they team really gets it in the third period and goes from 1-4 and wins with 6-4. This would be great but I doubt that it would happen.
“… dragged out for those who want to get right into the Action/Horror and Mystery.”
I totally understand that but then if you can not relate to them then what good is the action? There got to be both in an alien movie IMHO. I would rather have Daniels killing David than the other way around. ;)
“But a Popcorn Flick Final Movie may be nothing to go back to time after time.”
Like Aliens? I would rather have a popcorn movie with good action and well made characters than a movie like AC, give me that any day. Aliens is a movie that I do not watch that much but it is alright for the moment but AC is a movie that I will probably not watch again (maybe if it is there for free at the www and I can skip the scenes that I find boring).
“IF this role does not change and David is the Big Part i do feel that by the end of the Next Movie a lot of Fans may not be interested in the Final Chapter apart from IF the Set-Up seems to lead to Engineers vs Xenomorphs and our Spoon Fed Space Jockey Event...”
Yeah make him more sympathetic (at least explain why he does what he does) but still reduce his role by a lot but anyways he should die in the next one, at least I hope so. Kill him off within 20-30 minutes into the movie and then we could be compensated for AC. I don’t care if Scott agrees with this or not because I do not want another movie about him. It should not be that complicated to not piss of the growing numbers of those that started to dislike David in AC. They should compensate those people I think not in money but as in having a good story/movie. On the other hand if they keep him the way it is now (as far as his personality and how much screen time he gets) then I kind of think about not watching it at all but they will have themselves to blame for that crap if so.
His Xenos, I hope that they are only his versions and that he did not do the originals, that would suck.
“Then HELL breaks loose”
That is alright if the Xenos kill him or the humans do so. Nah, kill that ****er.
“*The movie will be about what kind of a World David would create.
*It would not be about Xenomorphs but more to do with AI.”
No thanks to both of those if that would mean more robots and another movie focused on David.
“Davids Evolved Creations will end up on a Engineer Ship in their Thousands.”
If that still means having him as the original creator then no thanks. He could have re-created it though. Honestly I am tired of this David-centricity. Bring us sympathetic characters and kill him fast as F, all tyrants die sooner or later (he has that mind-set).
“He will be attacked and will eventually crash on LV-426 as the big guy. That's it.”
I would tear my hair out if he will be the SJ, OK that is an exaggeration but maybe I would react to it like they did when they killed Luke namely that it is stupid ****ing dumb trash. Honestly I wish that they would re-do the movie if that would be the case just like I wish that they would re-do TLJ for being such a disappointment. David as the Space-jockey doesn’t make sense scale-wise. The SJ is bigger than David so it would make more sense to let it be an Engineer or someone related to it. Unfortunately they have made some big bad decisions in the prequels this far but would they really be that stupid? I kind of doubt it but it is not impossible since they made it so David became responsible for the Xeno (at least it looks like that for now but I hope that they will change it).
AC is bad enough so I hope that they will not F it up more in the next one if there is another movie. My reaction if they say that they will make another one will probably be “Oh let’s see how this goes”. After one OK movie and one where a lot is boring I have my doubts, I put it that way.
There are better ways that this could be written what what you have suggested or your guess of how they might do it. I would be so disappointed if they do it that way but then Scott (I think that it was) said that the Engineers will be in the next movie so maybe there is a way to save the SJ from being David.
As far as Daniels and Tennessee are concerned, they are not very well written so I am not sure if I would care. They could be better written in the next one, hopefully they will be so if they are there. Right now there is a very small chance the way I see it that any of them would survive but we will see.
"Are you kidding. I've seen quite some comments on the Youtubes of type: "My interest for the series died with Shaw", so maybe your's an understatement."
Its one of those things i guess..... its hard to Gauge How Many people take one side or the other.... the Dislike Shaw, the Like Shaw, its like the David comments, it may appear more dislike him... but sometimes its hard to Gauge because the Human Race does often choose to Complain/Point out Dislikes/Negatives and keep Positives to themselves a bit... What i mean is you will see more Moaning about Certain things than Praises, well maybe not all the time.
So its hard to judge what % liked or disliked or stood on the fence with things like Dr Shaw, and we could even add Engineers... I think for Most However David was a interesting Character from Prometheus, but Dr Shaw was well, not to everyone's liking....
But Prometheus still set up a sequel where it would appear that Dr Shaw's Role was something that we would have used her to engage with her Journey and to be thrown under the Bus and Rolled under the Carpet was a bit Unjust..... I felt she had Flaws, but saw she was Important to where to take the Series next... And so i am in the Camp that feels Disappointed with how she as well as the Engineers were Brushed aside to Pursue a Direct Lets Spoon Feed the Xenomorph and Space Jockey Store and give Fans XENOMORPHS route..
I dont think the Franchise Ended with Dr Shaw... indeed her Quest was a Distraction from taking us to a more Alien Based movie, but she was still given a Important Part to play.. as NO Shaw = NO Xenomorph.... but i just felt there was a lot of interesting Horror to be told to HOW she arrived at this Fate... and i feel so much more could have been given if she at least had some way to confront just a few or one of these would be GODS.
For me i wanted to see a movie where we can carry on with Dr Shaws Quest, and find what Horrors to the Contrary to her Hopes she discovers.
With Dr Shaw Gone... they have to find someone else to Fit the Role she had as far as a Human in a Story where we may discover more about the Engineers, their Agenda and those Questions she would ask.
Who is going to do that now? Daniels... nope... i think Oram would have been a fitting Character to have eventually MET his MAKERS and i wonder if they would even attempt to Answer those Questions that Dr Shaw had or those Questions we would have from Prometheus.
I think a lot depends on WHAT kind of a Colony the Covenant is? One similar to Hadleys Hope? Or maybe a group of People trying to make a Fresh Start and Shun the Ways that led to Corrupt Rotting Paradise that Earth became. Those Engineers had that Amish People look about there ways.. Maybe the Covenant Colonists would not be too different. Thus allows for Characters like Dr Shaw and Oram to be introduced who we can then use as our Eyes/Ears to tackle any Questions about Creation that may come up.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I was referring to the third act of Alien Covenant.
AI Lubricant = Blood it was tongue in cheek.
On a more general point and for everybody. By writing a story into the ending of Prometheus and organising the mythos in a coherent way what strikes me is once you are on firm ground you can begin to really explore what is hinted by on the screen. Just for starters.
1) What precisely were the acolytes sharing through their sacrifice.
2) The origins of the biomechanical nature of the Juggernaut.
3) Davids mind visor gave him access to Elizabeths sub conscious. He was able to store vast amounts of knowledge and emotional intelligence. How would a race that acts as a catalyst for civilising a world respond to that.
4) The mutagens base sequence is radical artificial intelligence. How do you out smart that.
5) The Engineers on the planetoid suffered a catastrophic failure just at the moment a unique personality was coming into man kinds history.
6) And the very minor point who created them.
However you can not start dealing with any of these things until you know the basics and stop making films where you spend 1/3 establishing characters and 1/3 killing them all off.
Mutagen alert it doubled posted.
" David as the Space-jockey doesn’t make sense scale-wise"
Indeed but i think RS does not care for such Oversights, i mean the Derelict and Juggernaught are different in a number of ways too, i think some are Disappointed the Space Jockey is not a Skeleton... it may looked it a bit, but then many parts dont add up with a Skeleton, but Dallas did say it was Fossilized and Bones bent Outwards.
But we have to remember (Unless they reveal a 13-15 Tapir like Race) that Dallas was WRONG and it was a Space Suit. However Dallas also said it looked like it GREW out of the Chair and that statement gives them License to explain the Size Difference as merely Growing out the Chair.
A thing to consider is our Engineers are closer to Human Size than the Space Jockey.
So there is the Potential for a Human or Synthetic to be the Space Jockey, which i dont think would sit well with MOST Fans, while it would be nice to see a Larger Engineer like Race, i think we would still accept a 8ft Engineer over David or a Human as the Space Jockey.
But i am still concerned that it could be David, to fit with either a Hubris/Death by his Creation Angle, or a Redemption Saved by David Angle. But then we have that SOS in ALIEN, which seemed like a Warning from the Space Jockey to his people... so i think its Fingers Crossed for it not being a Human/Synthetic.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I certainly look forwards to it Michelle... I wish i motivated myself more to Flesh my Ideas into any Story ;)
"Davids mind visor gave him access to Elizabeths sub conscious. He was able to store vast amounts of knowledge and emotional intelligence"
Nice to pick up on that too ;) as my Prometheus 2 attempt i did cover the reason for such Technology, and the Synapse Re-Stabilizer and David as all being Weylands Aims to Conquer Death and if he could Store the Memories and Emotions of a Human Soul, upload them to a Synthetic then Weyland would have been Immortal so to speak.. this was Project Rook.
The Dream Visor was interesting, because it showed David was able to Watch Peoples Dreams, and Memories... we can only Wonder how many times he had done this to the Crew and Dr Shaw... and what would David do now he has lost this Technology. You can imagine him peering over Daniels in Cryo-sleep WANDERING what is she thinking/dreaming.
The opening Scene to my Prometheus 2, i had David watching over Dr Shaw in a Engineer Cyro-Pod.. hands on it and he was thinking what is she thinking... (Cut to a Dr Shaw Memory but David can not see this, its just for the Audience) then we cut to David Pondering what Dreams she is having..... and then we drift off to a David Day-Dream a Sequence with him and a Young Weyland with lots of Philosophy and similar to the Alien Covenant Prologue but different a bit, much more Deeper, and they was playing CHESS.
The Dream Visor was such a Interesting Piece of Technology, we can only imagine if Dr Shaw Wore it and used it on a Engineer would she then Grasp their Language? I think ONE Problem with any Prometheus 2 would have been HOW does Dr Shaw communicate with any beings.... do we use David as Translator.. and can we Trust he would Translate Back/Forth with 100% Honesty and Word for Word?
So its interesting to Ponder if the Engineers had Similar Technology as this would provide a Plot Device to allow Dr Shaw to speak to the Engineers so the Audience can then NOT rely on David or Sub-Titles.
IF the Engineers dont have this Technology or similar, then indeed i think they would be Fascinated by it.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
A KING HAS HIS REIGN...... THEN HE DIES!
With things regarding a Sequel on Hold, as time goes on it will become more Difficult for Fassbender to portray David a Male Synthetic looking like someone in their Mid-Late 30's
But it also seems to be a Lack of Interest in the Franchise from the Standpoint of the Prequel Story Arc that has Evolved to have David as a Anchor point.
So do you think that the Prequels should be ABANDONED?
It seems they Split the Fanbase as some stuff from the Prequels had Interested some Fans, but it appears a Majority of Fans just want to see a Continuation with what the ALIEN Franchise had been about, ALIEN DAY for the Most Part seemed to be more Geared towards things Connected to ALIEN/ALIENS as opposed to the Prequels...
So has THIS KING had its Reign?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@BigDave: I was of the understanding that the third 'Alien' Prequel was reportedly in the scripting phase, with Ridley set to direct!?
The prequels have polarized a lot of fans. I suspect deep down, most want one more from RS. I know I would like one despite feelings on how the theatrical releases were. But ownership has changed since those days and as always, past financial performance will be a big factor.
BigDave well the fact that Faszy got older could be masked with some nasty make-up and to say he was damaged by too much exposure to the goop. The real big age problem is RS', who this year makes 82, already over the British life expectancy of 79.4 .
They thought that Fassbenzer can lead a Franchise, but unfortunately no big budget movie were he was the top billing made it big. He is also a rapist and genocidal robot, is that appealing material for that many people, especially woman? The most talked about thing now are the Engineers and Shaw, both and dead. If, the Engineers would return that would only to die stupidly, as the White Walkers did in the last season of Game of Thrones? Of Covenant's surviving characters we know nothing (well Daniels likes rock-climbing, that might also because of her husband and wants to build a cabin by the lake... boring) , not even their given name.
An another problem would be the new Terminator movie. If that goes well Disney would have every incentive to bring the Ripleys back.
Who knows what will be, but I am holding my breath as after Prometheus, sorry.
@dk but the leadership also changed between Prometheus and Covenant, and the new leadership thought that killing Shaw and replacing Marc Streitenfeld with Jed Kurzel to ape the Jerry Goldsmith OST, would make them good money. But it did not.
I think ULTIMATELY the Prequels have just NOT been what i Feel Many Fans would have expected or wanted way back when Rumors Surfaced that we would be getting a ALIEN Prequel.
The Space Jockey never Turned out like Many Expected, while Prometheus the Scale was mainly off, as we got to Alien Covenant we ended up with nothing more than VERY HUMAN looking 7ft beings..... who were all KILLED OFF..... Bye Bye Space Jockey!
It was expected to Reveal the Xenomorph Origins and a Return to Everyone's Favorite Space Monster, but we DID-NOT see them or their Explanation... by the Time we got to Alien Covenant then we GOT THOSE... only that they are the Creation of a Rebellious, Psychotic, Lonely ROBOT!
So while the Prequels had Continuing Disappointed Fans, we are left with the PLOT now being Focused purely on a Mad Robot... who Hates Humanoids, who wants his Creation to Rule the Galaxy!
So we are FAR OFF what i think Most Alien Fans and especially more Aliens Fans would have expected.
Some Fans liked Prometheus and how it OPENED DOORS with the Engineers and Creation Plot, and was looking forwards to seeing more about this and Dr Shaw and David and how all these things would Interact, and were NOT that bothered about Xenomorphs and Unlocking that Mystery.
But now we are left with a Colony Ship with Colonists we have to be Introduced too, who are at the WHIM of David and if his Agenda is CREATE EGGS that dont Bold well for them..
We have David who is the CENTRAL Point of the Prequels, but a Character Arc that does-not please a lot of Fans, having him as Creator of their Xenomorph has got him a lot of Hate, Killing their Dr Shaw has got him a lot of Hate! The Fascination with AI and David is something not many Fans are NOT interested in....
We are left with WHO ELSE? as Ignorantguy points out TWO Characters who we really know little about who we just could not connect to that well... and WELL as Daniels knows who David is... then it would be STUPID for him to let her LIVE..
So as it stands as a Platform.... i am not sure its something that Many Fans would want to Continue, not in a way that Revolves around David....
To Continue with 2-3 more Movies to LEAD to ALIEN is going to be a Difficult Task as i dont think many Fans would want to have TWO more movies about David....
And so as Time Goes on, then yes it becomes more Difficult to showcase a 35 year old looking Male Synthetic (but yes there are ways around it) and as Ignorantguy mentioned... we also have Ridley Scotts Age!
With Disney they are NOT going to want to RISK doing another Movie that still has to have a Sequel to get to ALIEN, as a sequel to AC that becomes a Disappointment could leave them DEAD in the Water.
So i was just wondering if it looks like CURTAINS for David....
I think its more likely that Disney would give us a ONE Movie Connection to Alien that will deal with a AFTERMATH of what ever the Next 1-2 Movies may have Covered, were we come across David as just his Broken Body and Activate his HEAD!
More Chance they would want to give us a more Action like Flick, with Marine Types, Xenomorphs all over the Place and then Aggressive SOB! Prometheus Engineers who go around with Actions Speak Louder than Words.. giving the Predators more Personality and Interaction with us ;)
Then Disney can go about to make more ALIEN Movies... no doubt with some Ripley Connections!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I just want to find out what they are planning...don't even need to see another movie.....Just want to see the idea...that'll make me happy.
Prequels have exceeded my expectations....Always thought they would be about Ripley's parents(or worse...a child actor playing young Ripley!!!!!!) or comical Elephant like creatures.
I think ULTIMATELY the Prequels have Disappointed Too Many....
There are that Bunch who would have liked a Ripley and Queens Connection, but i think even the other side at that Time would have still NOT been 100% Happy with what we got Especially the Revelations/Plot of Alien Covenant.....
I do think the Prequels could END UP being Considered just as the AVP Movies where Considered and their PLOT.... How Many Fans of the Franchise Accept that Charles Bishop Weyland had Founded the Company before the Year 2004, that Xenomorphs had been on Earth for Thousands of Years... and we was Previsited and Taught what we know by Predators who just wanted to USE us to Erect Hunting Grounds/Birthing Pyramids and Sacrifice us for the Predators ULTIMATE Hunt?
Not Many i would assume...
I feel the Prequels could be Considered the Same, and so i would NOT put it past getting a REBOOT! at some point in 10-20 Years.
I say that because Disney may Consider the Damage that Continuing the Prequels/David route may have on the Franchise... compared to just IGNORE them like some would with AVP.... and maybe some day give Indications of the Origins of the Xenomorph and Space Jockey Race in another Movie!
They would Consider its the Xenomorph and similar thats Important, just as the ALIEN DAY Shorts had, as in NONE were Connected to the Engineers/Space Jockey.
In closing.... i will add that indeed it would be NICE to have the Story Closed even if all we get is NOVEL, but then this would NOT please Most the Fans... it would be a Gift to those who had a Interest in the Prequels who have NOT just Turned Away since Alien Covenant.
I do Understand WHY they would feel like Giving Up on the Prequels though.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017