What if the xenomorph is the original template for the black goo's duplication?4,796 Views28 RepliesAdd A Reply
What if the Xenomorph already existed, and the Engineers have duplicated it's recipe and made it more lethal for its (end of the world) use?
Is this why it's worshipped in the mural?
Like the chicken before the egg kind of scenario.
"Must be something we haven't seen yet.."__Bishop
Interesting theory! That'd make the Deacon actually more advance than the Big Chap Alien, which I'm totally for. I can never see how the Deacon would evolve into a Xenomorph :(
Could be possible,some guy who worked on Prometheus said on do***entary of making prometheus furious gods that since the xenomorphs were capable of eradicading other planets they worshiped it.
In Jon Spaight's original script titled Alien engineers the beluga xenomorph is implied to be the original form of the xenomorph and that the classic xenomorphs we all love are a 'weaponized' versions of it, modified and improved by the Engineers.
I definitely subscribe to this idea.
I like to think that the MORB is truly ancient, a sort of guardian programmed to regenerate endlessly and murder anything that gets ahold of the black liquid, indeed to spawn from the liquid itself, like a celestial curse. I like to think the liquid is waste from the formation of the universe.
Edit: I also imagine the MORB produces a variant of the liquid. In its terrible head.
It's a good question - I kind of like the original ALIEN Xeno being a weaponised version of a rather dangerous predator, as Dark Nebula mentions.
The whole deal with them and the black goo is very chicken and egg to me. Although, if pressed, I think i'd prefer the Xeno to be something created directly from this substance (or forms of it) rather than altered by it.
Prometheus suggests that there are at least two types of goo - the sacrificial and the 'other' found on LV-223. But, that also possibly suggests that the Xeno/Deacon came first, as you would need a Xeno to ingest the black goo to get the stuff in the vials? At least that's how it seems to work to me . . .
That it has obvious humanoid traits; teeth, bi-pedal (sort of), hands, feet etc is what makes me plum for it being a man/Engineer made being.
Again - if we knew what the goo was and where it come from we'd probably know for sure!
Interesting idea, Aorta :) Perhaps 'mis-use' of the back goo creates the Xeno? i.e if the Engineers had gone about seeding and then taking a back seat - no Xeno. However, as soon as it's manipulated in any way - out pops a Xeno and . . . you reap what you sow!
Lots of possibilities here which is what makes the plot and reveals for AC so fascinating!
Billions of Years Ago
The hierarchy tasked the Engineers with catalysing the galaxy. Their role in creation was a tough hard horrific one. By ingesting the life catalyser as perfect specimens of a "superior race" they gave life to lifeless planets.
Thousands of Years Ago
They took a paternal interest in their achievements and revisited, in the case of mankind, time and again. They revealed themselves to early modern european humans, sometimes known as Cro Magnon man and other middle east civilisations and the solar system they travelled from.
Sometime between 40,000 and Anno Domini the Engineers rebelled against their original pre ordained role and began experimenting.
As a sacrificial race they turned on themselves to create new life through sacrifice. We know this definitely involved hideous monsters which created pain but at some point they achieved sub creation. However the experiments lead to a deadly plague like virus which all but destroyed their species. This may have been a locked down booby trap by the hierarchy punishment for the forbidden fruit or merely something beyond our comprehension an ancient force determined to find expression and challenge the ordained way.
The mural contains two deacons one male and one female and many Eggs some Easter and some ALIEN an homage to Giger all of which could be woven into the store they wished to tell. Originally Charlie saw a sacrificial cup on the alter which implies the Deacon (s) acted as sacrificial victims whose life force was then blended into the catalyser. Clearly the Engineers were proud of this work and created a beautiful ceremonial room honouring the achievement by setting up vials of the mutagenised goo in front of a representation of themselves. An indication perhaps of their increasingly self absorbed view of their role in the universe in which they took it upon themselves to destroy in order to creates simply because they could the ultimate hubris.
In C O V E N A N T we will see how these rituals played out on their home world and how in breaking their Covenant with the hierarchy they brought down further retribution on themselves. The crew of the Covenant will see how the sub created life has evolved and to what extent mankind AI intervention has affected this sub created life. Indeed they may change evolve the process.
It is self evident that the hierarchy has protected species from this mutagen, in this case mankind, survival from the mutagen but it has been set free and whether a tale of morality for rebellious behaviour or pure accident it cannot wholly be irradiated ever because Paradise has been Lost forever. Mercifully others come into the tale to offer their sacrifice to at least stop it for now.
HAWLEY GRIFFIN - What a very fascinating theory! I certainly think it is possible! One thing is for certain: the Alien is a mystery that never ceases to provide countless hours of exciting speculation! :)
I posted this on a different thread last night, and thought it might be relevant to this post:
I was thinking earlier about the early scenes of Prometheus and from my perception a peaceful race seeding human life on earth - and how this is the polar opposite to the same beings we saw from relics and the behaviour of the surviving engineer on LV-223. Whilst satisfying the status quo, timeline and many talks about David 8 re-creating the Xeno (or a form of) oppose to being responsible for creating the organism. As well as the need to destroy earth and drives behind this...
I'm thinking that the following has happened within the history of the engineer race and could be a possible explanation of what we saw on LV-223 being part created; i.e. no eggs or direct relations to do he Xeno, only the sealed cylinders of black goo.
1. As with Earth the engineer race found a planet that was at face value capable of sustaining their DNA. So as with Earth a sacrifice was made and life was seeded. However, due to some life form or biological characteristic of the native organism the terraforming has catastrophic set of chain reactions - possibly not seen immediately, but over a period of time, millions of evolutionary years. This oversight sets in motion the natural evolution of the Xenomorth and a macabre love affair with this "perfect organism" and fractions in the engineer society; one wishing to harness the organisms power and the other to destroy it as to not risk their own destruction. So we would have an explanation of Xeno eggs forming naturally whether that be via a Queen or via morphing of hoasts (an organism created by a blend of engineer black goo and a natural hardened organism on the Xeno's side planet of origin).
2. The planet in Covenant is either the home world of the engineers or the planet of origin for the Xeno's (I'm thinking the latter; splintering of Ridleys story the engineers home world may be a direction all on its own). So the engineers start to study the benefits of the Xeno and perhaps the black goo mutates (royal jelly theory) and effects engineer society and a biological level - thus the split between peaceful and scientific engineers. Or even that they are desperate to prevent a disease, or the spread of the Xeno race. So in an attempt to control the infestation the planet is scorched, but a research centre for either the study of or the destruction of the XEno is established on LV-223. The crashed derelict on LV-426 could be as a result of transporting or disposal of the Xeno's egg cargo to the research facility. The accidents to create the crash and disaster on all of the connected planetoids could be as a result of the splits in the engineer society and or....
3. As a result of the accidental mix between the engineers source of life and the Xeno DNA a disease is created which directly effects the motivations of the engineers contracting it. Therefore some would actively sabotage experiments and or release test subjects of the Xeno's. Our surviving engineer from LV-223 having the motivation to either destroy or save earth having the belief that we may have contracted the disease.
Very interesting Topic and there certainly is a connection... my next posts will be the reply i had done but i had no internet for a few days... but touches upon a few things mentioned above by others.
Your interpretations of the Black Goo is very correct as far as how i had seen it too, and how i feel it was originally intended to be shown to us... Spaights draft if you read it really does seem to solidify such a theory too.... if you read his draft and look at the Sacrificial Nano Scarabs and how this event lead to the Evolution of a Primate to become our Ancestors... then later look at the next time we see those Scarabs that are then stored inside Urns that Fifield knocks over and gets infected and becomes something more Xenomorph than in Prometheus.... if you compared the Nano Scarabs to the Prometheus Goo then the connection is more simple.
I think a number of your points are not far off the ball park, and maybe how originally things was to be, Michelle's reply is also very possible to what they are now trying to show us.
But i dont want to try and go to far off Topic to the Core connection raised in this post which is the Xeno and Black Goo connection... which i will cover in my next few posts.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
This is one of the interesting mysteries in regards to the Xenomorph and we can be sure that the Black Goo we saw in those Urns in Prometheus that lead to the Hammerpedes and Shaws Trilobite offspring and eventually the Deacon are indeed connected to the Xenomorph in some way.
Prometheus started life as a Prequel to Alien off sorts, where it was to deal with TWO main Questions regarding Alien, and then these can be expanded upon and they was.
- Who was the Space Jockey Race were was it from and why was it there (LV-426).
- Why did the Space Jockey have that Cargo, how did it obtain such Cargo.
And Spaights draft gave us those answers in the following way....
1) The Space Jockey was an Ancient Humanoid Race who played their hands in the creation of life on many Worlds, and Earth was one of those. They had played a role in the creation of Mankind and Evolution of Mankind Genetically and Technologically (giving us Knowledge).
2) At some point in time these Engineers had also started to experiment and create some horrific parasitical Organisms that they intended to use as Bio-Logical Warfare and it turns out the Outpost that they had seemly left clues to with Ancient Mankind had been used as a Facility to experiment and create a variety of Biological Warfare that involved developing variations of some Parasitic Organism and these was then intended to be used on Earth... but maybe other Worlds the Engineers had seeded.
The answers to the Xenomorph was in part answered more clearly it was a Bio-logical Weapon created or evolved from something the Engineers had created or discovered and experimented upon. And despite these Engineers at one point Seeding Life via Self Sacrifice on many Worlds, they had now for some REASON had developed these Bio-logical Parasitical Weapons to use upon what they had created many thousands or longer years ago.
The reason why and reasons for creating us in the first place, was the more ambiguous part of the Story.... but Bottom Line the Xenomorph had become used as a Bio-Logical Warfare to be used on what these Engineers had once gone through a long process to create.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Prometheus came along and decided to tone down the Xenomorph DNA on screen but the purpose and back bone of the Story must still have been the same... essentially we are shown.
1) The LV-223 Outpost had at the very least a few thousand years ago been a place these Engineers had been experimenting with and creating some Evil Biological Warfare.
2) The Urns were to be used as Bio-Logical Weapons to be stored upon the Engineers Juggernaught Space Ships, and intended to be used up Mankind at the very least. The results of these Bio-Weapons would contaminate a Worlds Gene pool and Evolve the Life on the Planet into something Horrific a whole new host of Organisms that share DNA Traits with the Xenomorph.
While things are more ambiguous than Spaights draft, the Experiments and Genetic Traits/DNA that those Bio-logical Urns contained was related and connected to the Xenomorph DNA, we have a series of clues that do not give us the DEFINATE Connections but it leaves us with 3 possible answers to the XENO-BLACK GOO Connection
1) The Xenomorph is something created/evolved from Black Goo or similar experiments maybe carried out on LV-223 (which could include the other Temple Complexes).
2) The Black Goo as far as what is stored within the Urns had originated from the Xenomorph or something else that ultimately is the Progenitor to the Xenomorph, and this is obtained from Genetically related Ancestor either by
a) A different creation process that created an Organism that was then further experimented upon and eventually re-weaponized.
b) An Organism these Engineers had came across but did not create, that they then experimented upon and eventually re-weaponized
And indeed if we look at the Mural then we can indeed as far as the Black Goo within that particular Temple Complex is very likely taken from the Organism we see in the Mural, and so potentially the Mural Organism was Sacrificed the same way as the Sacrificial Engineer and the resulting process created in some part what we see in those Urns...
The only other way is that they had experimented upon something be it Organisms, or the Black Goo until they had achieved what they thought was the desired results which was the Organism in the Mural.
So the Mural at very least represents either (most likely)
1) The desired or a desired Result of their Experiments, its what they was aiming to produce or what they had eventually produced with desired results from the Black Goo Mutagenic Experiments.
2) An Organism or Creation that they deemed as highly desired and Perfection and they had used this to then be the basis of their Bio-logical Mutagen within those Urns.
But regardless of the above, which i think its actually a combination of the TWO.. we still do not fully know the ORIGINS that lead to that Creature or the Black Goo..... its a case of does everything related from the Black Goo either.
a) Something that originated from a actual Progenitor Organism.
b) Or are the Progenitor Organisms created from the Black Goo.
I am going to go for A) and i can try and explain this in Detail Next.... which is when maybe the Frescos and Prometheus Mythos and Paradise Lost Poem come into play.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
This theory really intrigues me as well. The thought of the Xenomorph existing before and being altered by the Engineers is quite fascinating. Of course it will also raise a lot more questions.
What if also, the Xenomorph is a hybridization of the "original" Alien and the Engineer race?
It is a interesting theory and one that i feel has a lot of supporting evidence...... even if we throw out any external Sources which include Ridleys comments, previous movie drafts or concept work.
Then we get the following picture...
*The Xenomorph seemed Ancient, looked to be on LV-426 for a long time. But maybe this is not the case no more.
*LV-223 is connected with regards to sharing some DNA, the purpose of the movie was to show us some kind of subtle link, i think the clues/location are not just Coincidental.
*Alien Covenant will give us more direct clues and it appears the next movie will also cover the Evil Biology (Black Goo) so there has to be a connection between LV-223 and Paradise and Xeno DNA.
*The Mural in Prometheus was surely there prior to the outbreak that killed off most of the Engineers, and this Mural shows the Engineers had either Created, or had seen the results of something that either leads to the Mural Creature or comes from the Mural Creature its surely not a Premonition of the future or just Easter Egg?
*The Fresco's like wise as above show something that is connected in the Chain and must be a link in the Chain that includes the Deacon Mural and Xenomorph... unless the Fresco's are to be thrown out as Clues as they are just Easter Eggs (especially the Egg Holding one).
*Something related to the Xenomorph Genetically had been created or experimented on LV-223, the Black Goo had been around for over 2000 years its safe to assume, and its connected to the Xeno in some way (passes on similar traits) and we have to figure how this connects to the Sacrificial Goo as that did not pass on Xeno traits or how it seemed... And so Genetic Code within the Black Goo either leads to the Xenomorph or its Progenitor in some way... or comes from the Xenomorph or Progenitor in some way.
If we take all this on board the only Logical Solution is that there is some Organism/Parasite that the Black Goo/Xenomorph Originates from.
But we dont get the complete picture and everyone's interpretations are different and once we add other Sources of Information then it brings us to the conclusion that in some part the Engineers Created the Xenomorph..... but we cant rule out if its creation was via Experiments on something they had discovered but never created.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Your point about the Space Jockey is a good one. If the subsequent films are made the Jockey story cannot be an also ran. (Oh this is one of the LV223 brother engineers, which was the idea at the time of Prometheus). It could represent a unique response to the mutagen by a pilot linked to the Engineer race who has a separate view of what to do with the cargo. It would fit in with the notion of sacrifice that begun this cycle and would add to the irony that the landing and setting of the beacon did not work- the warning was not heeded.
I don't really like this idea since it to me reduces the importance of the original somewhat. Wasn't the idea originally to see how the Xeno was made? They should stick to that and not reduce the role of the Xeno and enhance the importance of the goo. Deacons should still be less advanced versions of the monster.
Dark Nebula: I hope that we will see a Beluga Xeno in AC, that would be cool. Maybe they will manage to make it more dangerous than the monster that we are familiar with?
I think they are now going to show us how the Xenomorph came to be or how it could have came to be, and i think the Black Goo is implemented with its creation.
We cant be 100% what the connection is, but a lot of comments by Ridley seem to point at the Xenomorph being a Evolution to something else, be that some related Progenitor Organism or from the Black Goo... where we then have to wander where did the Black Goo come from.
I think Prometheus tried to give us clues, and maybe Spaights draft could give us more insight...
Because regarding that and the Beluga Xeno, the idea was to show 8 different Organisms that all share DNA with the Xenomorph and that are all the results of experiments the Engineers had conducted.....
Prometheus showed us the Black Goo instead which maybe held the key to how all kinds of Xeno related Organisms could be created... or was the result of Sacrificial DNA of a related Organism in which case those other temples could hold different kinds of Xeno related Black Goo.
Ridley did say the idea was the Derelict had a number of different Cargo Holds and each had a different variation of the Xenomorph.
There has been a lot of Evolution of the Monster from its inception which was the Star Beast.... The Xenomorph we came to see in Alien, and which Aliens, Alien 3 and Alien R all carried on in some way... these were all based off the influences of HR Giger, he gave us the Bio-Mechanical Beast.
If we look at the other variants in concept here is what we had.
*Star Beast we saw various designs which were totally different to what the Xenomorph was like, the only concept that was close was O'Bannons Star Beast Sketch which does bare some resemblance to the Prometheus Fresco. While this looked insectoid and armored it was not Bio-Mechanical not in the same way as the Xenomorph.
Alien Engineers/Paradise (Prometheus) we had a number of Final Adult designs which included.
*Holloway Chest Buster, to adult which was described as being more flesh like and without as much of a hard skeletal structure and Octopoid to a degree. I dont think any concept work apart from the Chest Buster Exists but it looks more like the Trillobite.
*Watts (Shaw) Chest Buster... who grows to appear as a white Alien that again while you can see Xeno DNA this creature is not Bio-Mechanical.
*Armored Xenos that chase down some of the crew and is killed by the Engineer in Spaights draft, we have no concepts that match but its described perhaps more closer to the Xenomorph.
*Ultramorph there was many Ultramorph designs, some looked similar to the Watts C-Section Alien others looked like the Neconom 4 by HR Giger and its these Necronom 4 Ultramorphs that have the closest look to a Xenomorph as far as coming close to Bio-Mechanical Look.
*Deacon there was various Deacon concepts and all of these had no Bio-Mechanical Look that the Xenomorph had.
*Fresco Creature despite the head being different, the Fresco Creature did have a lot in common with the Xeno but again it lacked the Bio-Mechanical Look.
And so you see there was many various kinds of related Organisms, that had been designed and none of them from Prometheus or Star Beast... really had the Bio-Mechanical look of the Xenomorph
Apart from the TWO very similar Ultramorph concepts... and those who had worked on various designs had given us in addition a few other kinds of Xeno related Monsters that again never quite had the Bio-Mechanical Look.
Maybe these can back up Ridleys tease about how Alien Covenant would show us why the Xenomorph was Bio-Mechanical
So unfortunately it could appear our Alien Xenomorph may just be a Evolutionary Twist on the Xeno Orgin DNA, that somehow gains Mechanical Component from some place.
A interesting thing is the Alien Covenant Hand lacks the Bio-Mechanical look too, but we dont know what the rest of this creature looks like.
There has been a collection of Xeno related designs and with Ridleys 8 types comments and Spaights then these Engineers could have experimented on many times of variants.
But hopefully we find out what Progenitor to the Xeno is not only as far as why and when it became Bio-Mechanical but ultimately what Organism was the first source for all these variants.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I can fully understand Thoughts_Dreams you would had wanted something more concrete regarding the Xenomorph than the Black Goo.... Things got a bit more complex when they decided with Spaights draft to show more than one design of Xenomorph, but on the flip side it was interesting to expand on the DNA and give something fresh.
Spaights draft showed/described 3/4 different Xeno related Monsters and then the Fifield Monster which was more Xeno related than in Prometheus... Fifield mutation can from the Nano-Scarabs in the Urn he knocked over and it was Nano-Scarabs that was used in the opening Scene to show us how Mankind had Evolved from Early Primates which was via this route...
Scarabs ==>consume Engineer storing his Genetic Code.
Scarabs ==>bite a Primate who mutates and evolves.
Draft set up that we was connected to the Engineers Genetically thus indicating that the Scarabs which injected the Primate with Engineer DNA lead to a Primate/Engineer Hybrid which became Mankind.
Thus for Fifield to become a Xeno/Human Hybrid means the Scarabs that had bitten him to pass on those Xeno Traits must have obtained them via the same way the Scarabs had obtained Engineer DNA. Some Organism related to the Xenomorph would have had to been Sacrificed.
Spaights movie also showed us different Xenomorphs and while a bit ambiguous it would be logical to assume maybe one of these
1) a Progenitor to the Xenomorph was either Sacrificed and the resulting Scarabs containing the DNA where used to create many hybrids so all those different Xenomorphs drawed their Origins from one DNA source of a related Progenitor in the hope to create the Ultimate Bio-Weapon.
2)The Engineers experimented on different Xenomorphs (maybe obtained from a Progenitor) and when they created what they felt was the perfect Organism, they then re-weaponized this via the Scarabs and Stored it into the Urns so that it can infect a World and create Hybrids to pass on the Perfect Organism DNA.
SPAIGHT'S Draft i feel was going for Option 1, but the 2nd option could fit into the Plot too, but it appeared the first option was what the draft was showing.
LINDELOFF'S They decided to tone down the Xenomorphs and remove the various kinds and just concentrate on perhaps how the DNA stored in the Urns is linked, so Prometheus went the route to explore Option 2 and decided to replace the Scarabs with a Mutagenic Substance or even Nano Parasitic Organisms
So Prometheus would be the same as if Spaights draft removed the actual Face Huger related events which included the one that Holloway came into contact with Organism A, the one David had introduced to Watts (Shaw) Organism B, the ones (Organisms C) that had effected a few of the Magellan crew left watching over the equipment used to obtain Engineer Tech. And the Engineer had been awoken and already infected with Organism D
If Spaights removed those Organisms, but kept Fifield and instead of Organism A and B they decided to have David use the contents of the Urn to pass its contained DNA from infected Holloway to Watts (Shaw) to then have a Face Huger type Organism removed from the C-Section than the result of a Face Huger and have Watts (Shaws) C-Section Face Huger infect the Engineer instead of already having Organism D gestating inside.
This is basically the Xeno Changes made.... which should still had highlighted the Xeno connection without having Xenos running around... if only it was done a bit different.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
If we look at Spaights Draft it indeed referred to the Organisms that infected Shaw as being more Evolved than the one that infected Holloway.... which could imply that Holloways Chest Buster which was like the Trillobite removed from Shaw... was something that was a Evolutionary Step to the eventual Armored ones that infected Shaw and eventually the Xenomorph.
Spaights draft thus showed us in part option 1 and 2 from my previous post, and so its logical the Engineers had indeed came across some Organism that was experimented upon, over and over until they had evolved it into something that led to the Xenomorph....
We did not know where the Organism got its more Hardened Look from..... but its logical that perhaps the Centipedes could have played a role..... these where replaced in Lindeloffs Draft with Worms... and it was hinted more that the Urns containing Biological Weapon had infected the Worms DNA to give us Hammerpedes.
So yes some things changed in the hope of making things tie in more, but actually maybe did not work this way.
SPAIGHTS Draft to me showed this..
The Engineers are Genetic Engineers, they constantly experiment and evolve many forms of life looking for Perfection. They had at some point began experimenting on a Life Form that Genetically is the Xenomorphs Ancestor they would have essentially cross bred and experimented with the Organism either in the way that we now have various sizes and shapes of Dogs compared to the common Wolf-like Ancestor.... then the prevered result was Re-weaponized into the Urns.
Or the Ancestor Organism was re-weaponized and using similar results they had constantly experimented with different Organisms to Achieve a desired result.
At one point thus either Re-Weaponized the Centipedes DNA and mixed it with the Xeno Ancestors or vice versa and this is how we obtained a Face Huger that had more Hard Shell like appearance.
Prometheus went to simplify this process, but i think the way they executed it was not so good.
Its when you combined Spaights draft and Prometheus with the Mural and Fresco that we actually paint a logical picture...
Which points to some Organism either created, or obtained was experimented on and changed over and over to give us a number of different kinds.... until the result was the Mural Deacon... once they had achieved this... they then re-weaponized its DNA to produce the substance within the Urns.
At this point we dont know where the Xenomorph fits in, but Lindeloff had said both the Hammerpedes and Deacon are or could be part of the evolutionary process.
We also dont know if the other Temples had different variants of the DNA in its Urns, that have slightly different results... or if those other Temples were made for other Races the Engineers had created to find (as evident in Fire and Stone).
So the Xenomorph is thus either...
*Another Experiment contained within the Urns in a different Temple.
*A off shoot of various experiments on the Ancestral Organism one which led to the Mural Deacon... another led to the Xenomorph.
*A eventual Evolution from something contained within those Urns, this does not have to be after Prometheus it could be from the Outbreak... but something had got infected and eventually lead to the Xenomorph but originated from the Black Goo in that Temple the Prometheus Crew had found.
*A other option could be that the Xenomorph or something more closer was the Progenitor.... however i feel the Xenomorph is a Evolution.... and i also think the Progenitor Organism is related to the Fresco Creature.
But alas we never got to see every clue that was maybe on LV-223..... we never saw what was behind that Mural as it seemed this was a Door to maybe another Tomb as Holloway assumed.... also the Frescos... we only saw the One Clearly, the other we did not (Egg) and looking at the ceiling that contained the Fresco we only saw on portion and these Frescos where split up via the columns/posts holding the roof up.... and so there could have been a total of 4, 6, 8 Frescos and if thats the case what would they have shown.
So i hope these few posts have helped to perhaps show where the Xeno fits with the Black Goo?
Looking at what Alien Covenant is now showing, then i think its likely they are showing us the Xenomorph is a Evolution of the Black Goo where some element is added to produce the Xenomorph.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I would rather have it that they found the Deacon or something, experimented on it and then got the Xeno. Not that the Xeno existed prior to the Engineers finding it but that it should be an update of something else. This would in a way make both the Xeno and the Engineers more interesting like they wanted the perfect bio-weapon they found something and got the Xeno as a last result before it got too advanced and turned on them. Hopefully this is how it will be.
The black goo should be involved in it in some way, this is what I hope. There is a huge potential when it comes to the goo and it could be made to be very interesting.
Clues or not, Prometheus didn't say a lot about where the goo came from but rather how it worked. Maybe the explanation of the goo could have been better but it worked fairly well compared to many other things in Prometheus (at least to me). It will be interesting how they will expand on it in AC.
As far as the number of creatures maybe 8 would have been too much. There is a limit of where something becomes too much to make it interesting but the problem was that Prometheus had too little of it (Xeno connection). There needs to be a balance in it, not too much and not too little.
My knowledge of Star Beast is limited but I understand that it was an early version of Alien or at least an influence to the movie.
The white alien that you mention seems interesting. I like the fact that it is not a Xeno but an earlier version of it. An Engineer that kills an alien would be interesting to see, that would show that while a Xeno chest busted the SJ the Engineers had weapons that could kill Xenos so that the Xenos didn't totally slaughter them without any resistance from the Engineers. Hopefully we will see an Ultramorph in Alien Covenant, that is something that we haven't seen before.
“So unfortunately it could appear our Alien Xenomorph may just be a Evolutionary Twist on the Xeno Orgin DNA, that somehow gains Mechanical Component from some place.”
That is a possible explanation that I have considered but I am not very sure if that is a bad idea. Hopefully it will be a better explanation than that, like the Xeno is like perfection where the Engineers get to the point that it couldn't get better or at least where it would be very difficult to improve it. The problem is to explain how it get the mechanical side of bio-mechanical. I understand the bio part (biological) though and I also think that I understand what you mean about the hand since I think that I have seen a picture or video of it somewhere.
The goo isn't a bad idea but I think that Prometheus should have had better connections to the Xeno, like the Fifield mutant that was cut for the badly done zombie. Something fresh is alright as long as it doesn't get too vague and dumb and that is what I think that Prometheus did (too vague as far as the Xeno connection is concerned and too dumb as far as most of the characters go).
It is disappointing that they didn't use more of the Spaight's script than what we got. The Xeno connection would probably have been a lot better if they had used more of Spaight's ideas.
I remember about the Nano scarabs and how Fifield got infected but I think that the goo worked also.
Prometheus didn't have to bee overtly obvious about the Xeno connection (like Spaight's draft) but they made it too vague (Lindelof). Maybe a middle version could have been better because Fox and Ridley are also responsible for the mess that came out of it.
The worms to Hammerpedes was easy to understand since the worms became Hammerpedes after taking a bath in the goo but once again that required much attention to what happened on-screen but I get it. I am not sure if they would have needed the Hammerpedes at all, they could have had better monsters than that I think, something closer to the Xeno (the stupid cobra-petting didn't make it better either).
Wasn't the squid in the end a proto-face hugger? I don't really like the design of the squid, it could have been so much better because it was too big and just seemed clumsy.
Yeah they should have had more of Spaight's draft to make it more logical because it became too much nonsense in the final movie even though Prometheus is OK in general. I would probably give it 2 or 2,5 out of 5 where 2 is alright and 5 means that it is a super movie and bla bla bla.
I am not sure what exactly Lindelof has said and hasn't said but from my understanding he made the Xeno connection too vague at least he was a part in it, which made it worse. The Deacon makes sense but I think that the Hammerpedes were underwhelming to say the least especially with the Xeno versions that they had before they removed them (made the movie worse). My main complaint about Prometheus is still the characters with most of them being good examples of piss-poor writing. They could be parts of the evolution? So he hasn't made up his mind or what? Sigh!
The frescos should have been explained better, visual clues can be alright if they are explained enough but they weren't. I am not sure why they decided to do what they did with the frescos but that was a case of having to stay very alert and pay attention to every little detail and I think that is too expect too much of people at least that is how I reacted when I first watched the movie. Still after having watched it for an X amounts of time I think that other things than the frescos are more explanatory than those.
In general I think about the Xenos like this: The Engineers seed different kinds of life and humanity was one of those. Mankind went wrong somewhere so the Engineers felt that they needed to destroy us. They experimented a bit with the goo and so on and got the Xeno. Prometheus tried to show this but was too vague.
Having the Xeno as a result of the black goo could be interesting. Hopefully they will do something smart with the goo to make it more interesting because it surely has got the potential to be so. They seem to have better writers this time and hopefully it shows, just keep the bosses at Fox away from this and it will improve. I am interested in seeing what they will do with Alien Covenant.
"I would rather have it that they found the Deacon or something, experimented on it and then got the Xeno. Not that the Xeno existed prior to the Engineers finding it"
I think its a case of the Chicken or the Egg, but Prometheus to me shows us that the Black Goo was created from something related to the Xenomorph. It could be the Xeno that Ordinates from the Black Goo or the Creature that originated prior that the Black Goo is a Evolutionary part of it..
Black Goo ==> Other Organisms ==>Xenomorph
Xenomorph ==> Other Organisms ==> Black Goo
But i think that the Xenomorph is a experiment from something else... and i still think the Black Goo holds something that is either obtained from experiments carried out on various related Xenomorph Ancestors as they was trying to create something Perfect.
Or these experiments come from the Black Goo but then the Black Goo has to contain some DNA Ancestor that connects them all.... be this a Organism, or Parasite.
Which is it? its hard to figure... i have a number of theories which i have covered before, that do evolve a bit time to time.
"Clues or not, Prometheus didn't say a lot about where the goo came from but rather how it worked."
Depends if you mean the Sacrificial Goo, then yes we cant be sure where this comes from i have covered it but its a big topic.. but i assume you mean the Xeno-Conection.
For this The Urns contain a Mutagen that has the Xeno Traits and DNA.... we dont know in which order only its related.... and the Mural to me when i consider the Sacrificial Scene and look at Spaights draft..... shows me that the Black Goo comes from the Sacrifice of that creature in the Mural.
This creature has Xeno traits, but we dont know where in the Evolutionary Tree the Xeno fits... But that what ever lead to either the Black Goo or that Deacon in the Mural must share the same Ancestor with the Xenomorph...
What this is.. we cant be sure... but the first comment and your first could fit with it... as in something they came across but did not create... not the LV-223 Engineers anyway.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"Wasn't the squid in the end a proto-face hugger? I don't really like the design of the squid"
Yes i am not sure about Proto-Face Huger... its what Lindeloff had hinted at... but it certainly was related, the way i look at it is Shaws Pregnancy lead to a Hybrid... a Embryo that Evolved to take on Human and Xeno Traits.. The Trilobite was a Human/Face Huger Hybrid.
I must stress when i say Xeno Traits i mean related Traits, in other words what ever DNA lead to the Trilobite could trace its Origins to the same Source that the Xenomorph would.
When Lindeloff said Pro-progenitor.... we need to remember does this mean the Deacon would thus from the year 2094 to the year 2122 somehow give birth to offspring, or evolve something that leads to the Eggs on the Derelict?
This contradicts what Ridley said and what Alien clues had given us... unless we are now led to the Derelict not being there prior to Alien Covenant.. i dont buy that.
SO CONSIDER THIS...
The Black Goo is the Progenitor to the Deacon at the end, it was created as a result of this.... via infected Holloway yes maybe?
Thus the Black Goo is the True Progenitor if they go that route.... Black Goo ===> Holloway ==> Shaw ==> Trilobite ==> Deacon .... then Xeno?
Nope... trace it back and the Deacons origins is the Black Goo... and dont forget LV-223 had a Black Goo Outbreak Two thousand years prior.........
Then note the Juggernaught and what happened to the other Engineers in the other Cryo-Pods... they was Chest Busted too.
So in theory a similar set of results could have happened in the past to create something close to the Deacon, that led to the Xenomorph in the Ancient Past...
Bear in mind David and the Black Goo could thus Re-create such a event in Alien Covenant.
As far as not liking the Squid.... and also how you have not looked into Star Beast too deeply.
i will point you to how Prometheus has used unused concepts that was planned for Alien and never used and also appeared in Star Beast but never used.
Star Beast there was not Eggs... but Jar/Urns like in Prometheus but Leathery in appearance, with a Waxy like Top.... once the Top/Lid had came off these Urns.. inside there was a Octopus like Face Huger...
They had taken the Urns and used them in Prometheus but in a different way.... They had designed Shaws C-Section to what the Star Beast Face Hugger looked like.
Star Beast had concept work of a Chest Buster and its Chest Buster looked a lot like the Adult Trilobite... so they was just re-using previous ideas that were never used.
Regarding the Hammerpedes....
Again Lindeloff implied them as being connected to the Xenomorph in a Progenitor Context.... does he mean the Deacon and Hammerpede interact to make a Xeno?
Yes the Hammerpedes was never covered enough... but when the concept work was being done and ideas behind them, they was more Centipedes then.... but called Hammepedes and the concept works was labaled as Face Huger... so at some point they had the idea that these Creatures peformed the function of a Face Huger.
The movie was ambigious and gave no explanation why the Hammerpede went down into Milburns throat... it left it open to interpretation to make us think..... did it lay something inside of Milburn?
It was something that could have been a clue, a red herring or nothing at all and this in many ways fits with a lot of the things in the movie that was left to vague.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
so indeed your comments are bang on the money...
Your correct that they needed to not be as vague as Lindeloffs draft and final movie, but not as spoon fed as Spaights... a Perfect balance between the Two would have been ideal... so it was sadly a missed opportunity.
i only hope the clues they show in Alien Covenant while being a bit ambigious and not spoon fed... i hope they are well thought out and fitting and offer no contradictions.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I understand what you are saying but it feels odd if the Xeno would be earlier than the goo, it doesn’t make sense. Having it as a result from some random experiment feels like it would reduce the importance of the Xeno as the ultimate bio-weapon and I don’t like it even if it could be worse. The goo should rather be something that they found and then got the Xeno but to get the goo from Xeno ancestors could be alright because then they would get the Xeno later but I can agree that it would be a part of searching for perfection.
With the goo I eventually meant both the sacrificial and the one that Fifield (I think that it was Fifield) slipped into. The chest busted Engineers: maybe that happened because of an earlier version of the Xeno but not from the Xeno itself? This is my guess but I don’t think that they should have used the chest busting at that point but rather moved it into later in the process of getting a Xeno. It was confusing and unnecessary, that is my opinion about that but then maybe it was an earlier/primitive form of chest buster (that would make sense)?
Hopefully the Xeno comes after the earlier version and the goo. You probably mean:
- Earlier version of the monster gives
- Goo which in turn gives
The Trilobite as a human/Xeno mix makes sense. A pro-progenitor could mean what ever if it is Lindelof that answers so I don’t know.
Holloway to Deacon, I look at it like this:
Holloway gets infected (worm), has sex with Elisabeth so Elisabeth gives birth to a Squid. The Squid lays an egg inside the Engineer which gives a Deacon. My question is how the Deacon grows into a Xeno, I am not sure but then we weren’t seen how the Xeno grew on the ship in Alien (1979) so that is alright. If we don’t complain about it in Alien then we shouldn’t complain about it in Prometheus. Let’s not have any double-standards here.
My complaint about the Squid comes from a practical point of view. It is not that the design in itself sucks but rather a practical reason: how are they supposed to move and do so in a way so it doesn’t look comical? This is a serious question or is it supposed to loose a lot of weight all off a sudden like a very rapid self-slimming? Limbs usually have a practical purpose so how does that apply to a fat squid that doesn’t seem like it can move? The Squid is the Jabba the Hutt of the Aliens. :D How is this supposed to make sense? Still the sound effects that they added to that scene makes it seems kind of gross.
You can say that the source of the Deacon is the goo but it probably depends on how far back you want to go. Look at it like this: snakes come from earlier reptiles, right? But the earlier reptiles must have come from somewhere so it is the same thing here. How far back would you like to go?
The Hammerpedes don’t seem to be very thought through. If they will use them in Alien Covenant then I hope that they will think it through much more to make sense of it. What worries me a bit is that we will getting half-baked explanations again (it could happen) but it seems that they have better writers this time (no Lindelof thanks God).
Maybe they knew better what to do with the Hammerpedes before they started to shoot it but it didn’t turn out well in the end? I am not sure if it was the editing or what ever the way it became of them in Prometheus. The only connection to the Xeno was that they both have acid for blood.
Exactly, they didn’t really explain why it went down his throat but I think that some details could have been left vague if they would have gotten the whole picture right but they didn’t. Because the whole failed to an extent it makes the messed up details even worse. What didn’t make me care for the fact that the monster went down his throat was that the character was **** so hence the result.
When the Hammerpede went down Fifield’s or Milburn’s throat (I don’t remember which one of them that it was) I just look at it as the used that scene for creating disgust not that it was very thought out. Later in the movie you see the snake or what ever get out and into the goo not to be seen again as far as I remember it which makes me wonder if they really had any idea of what to do with that monster at all. In Alien the Xeno has a specific role but the monster that gets out of the throat and into the soup is just there for some seconds never to be seen again so it doesn’t make sense. Of course they could have used that monster for something but as with many other things in Prometheus it was a wasted opportunity if you ask me. Who’s idea was it to make it like that? Hopefully who ever it was won’t have as big input in AC if any at all and if he or she has any input then get better ideas or at least they should oppose the dumb ideas that she or he has. I am not sure if it was Ridley’s ideas or Lindeloff’s or who ever.
I would prefer if they will have 70 from Spaights and 30 from Lindelof and hopefully they will have writers that will manage to do that in Alien Covenant but I would rather have it explaining a little too much rather too little at all. Let’s say that Prometheus was 80% vague then I would say that they could cut down on that ambiguity so we will get a 50% ambiguity in AC. I use these numbers as examples, I don’t think that the ambiguity level of Prometheus was 80%. Most of the things in Alien (1979) make sense even if there are things there that are not very much explained but it still holds up all these years later. I am not sure if people reacted like this as far as ambiguity of Alien 1979 when it was released compared to how Prometheus was received but at least it seems to hold the test of time or however they say.
Visually Prometheus was good but story-wise it could have been better and character-wise it wasn’t. Story wise I mean that there were many things that were not explained very well but there were things in it that were interesting (and still are). I hope that those that have written Alien Covenant know how to write a script so we won’t get the same problem again or the opposite problem that everything is overly explained. There is still much time left until the movie gets released so I hope that they will spend that time well so the movie will explain things better than Prometheus did, oh and by the way no more petting space-cobras, thank you very much because that scene frankly was stupid as hell.
A lot of what you said is pretty much spot on, and indeed what i have covered a bit.
I think the amount of stuff i write can make people lost within trying to make sense of it and miss out some points.
I was not implying the Xeno is older than the Goo, but then your response then clarifies what you thought i may have meant... which is indeed correct.
The Sacrificial Goo Predates the Xeno... IMO
The Black Goo in those Urns.... either Predates the Xeno too, or comes after the Xeno... but its does not have to come from the Xeno... we have to look at the experiments like the Tree of Evolution.
We cant quite pin point where the Xeno would come in along its Evolutionary Tree.
But we need to think that the Black Goo is just a tool the Engineers used to Evolve Life.
They could say see Man as Perfect... then Sacrifice Man to make Urns that contain Human DNA and use this on various life forms to get a desired result.... which when they use it on a Reptile they end up with a Reptile Human Hybrid.
Maybe they also get a Lion/Human Hybrid....
Then they Sacrifice the Reptile Hybrid to create Urns that hold Human/Reptile DNA and then use this on the Lion/Human Hybrid to create a 50% Human DNA 25% Reptile and 25% Lion
This is just the route i believe that they go as far as experiments.
Somewhere our Human/Reptile/Lion Hybrid obtained Reptile DNA ..... The Xeno in this occasion could be the Human/Reptile Hybrid
They could have not only used the Reptile/Human DNA on the Lion/Human... they could have used it on a Lion to make a 50% Lion 25% Human and 25% Reptile.
Or on a Reptile to make a 75% Reptile 25 X Human or even on a Fish lol the list goes on and on.
And so my point is the Engineers had used the Sacrificial Goo on something that the Xeno Ancestor DNA comes from but then this Origin DNA could have been used to create number of things and those deemed suitable then had their DNA Sacrificed and stored as Urns to be used to spread its DNA.
What i am saying is i dont see that at some point in the Evolutionary Tree... The Black Goo was created Once to then create everything Xeno related... it could have been used over and over.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Another thing is.
Black Goo was around for over 2000 years ago
The Black Goo in the year 2093 via a series of events lead to Shaws Baby and the Deacon.
If the Black Goo 2000 years ago was used in the same way on a Human, the effects could be similar would they not... only in 2000 years it would have evolved more, or even had other elements added to the chain.
If the Black Goo infected 2000 years ago, Engineer who infected Human Female, who then gave birth to Face Huger type Organism like the Trillobite and this infected a Human.
Its logical to assume... provided Engineers can mate with Human Females or pass via other means infection onto a Human Female.
Then the result would be something similar but different to the Deacon.
I think a lot of people over look the fact that the Black Goo had been around prior to the Prometheus ship and that there was a Outbreak prior too.
We have to ask... where did these come from? Certainly not after the Shaws Deacon.
And so something related to the Deacon and Xeno had occurred prior. A event maybe very very related to our Space Jockey... some thousands of years ago.. give or take a few hundred.
If we assume the Xeno and Deacon come from the same source at different times with a few variables.
Then both the Deacon and Xeno can be Re-Created provided the same Source and set of variables are met.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
But alas the movie Alien Covenant could be going a different route..... or so it may be leading people to think...
In doing so it would make things complicated to LV-223 and how old the Space Jockey was or seemed... contradict everything Ridley said about the event right up to Alien Covenant.
We have to remember Ridley said eventually the next 3 movies will back into Alien he is coming in from the Back End, Rear... which could mean reverse.
People are taking this as...
Engineers Create Black Goo some 2000 years ago, outbreak kills them off... no remains of what was (unexplained Chest Busted Engineer Cryo Pods at least).
Prometheus Crew Arrive late 2093, contaminate the Room the Black Goo is stored and one consequence via David 8 experiment is to infect a Human, who passes on something that causes another Human to fall Pregnant with a Hybrid Child... that is removed.... becomes a sort of Face Huger that infects a Engineer and leads to a Deacon Xenomorph
We never find out what happens to this..
But David is off to the Engineers World with more of the Black Goo...
A Human Ship arrives sometime latter and 10 years after David departed LV-223 with his Black Goo... this Human Crew arrive at a world that has a evolving creature the Engineers created.
All hell breaks lose, we see the appearance post year 2104 (ish) of the Xenomorph and we have a few survivors from Covenant and its onto another 2 movies where the survivors of these Organisms eventually lead to the Cargo in Alien.
some 18 years latter...
Maybe this is the route... but i feel its not the case.
The Engineers have History, maybe conflict, LV-223 Engineers created something Evil that must have had a source.... thousands of years ago we have a conflict a horrific Bio-Weapon that comes from a source.
Now the Engineers on LV-223 are all but dead... we dont know what state Paradise is in... how may survived... by the time David arrives and if so how many do after what ever interaction he has.
However there is still history on Paradise Long time prior before David was even created..
Its maybe to early to jump to conclusion that the Xenomorph could never existed prior to the Prometheus Crew and David arriving at LV-426
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Big Dave: Alright so then you mean that the goo is older than the Xeno, which makes sense. I agree because there could have been things before the Xeno or after so it is like a long line. The goo seems to be like a tool for creation that the Engineers chose to use for what ever reason so yes it could have been used many times.
What if the goo looses its effect the more you use it? I am not sure if this is correct it is just a though really. For example: a bike gets less effective the more you use it (the tires for example) so maybe this goes for the goo also so they (the Engineers) need to update it, like you do with computers. You seem to say that they have evolved it but what would happen if they didn’t? I wonder if the Engineers thought about this at all.
Maybe the goo was around before the Prometheus mission (it seems to logically hold up) but I am not sure about the outbreak.
I don’t think that AC should contradict too much of what happened in Prometheus or what Scott has said. Maybe it would confuse people if it did or make people conclude that Scott likes to say things just to mess with people while in the end he does completely different things than what he has implied earlier.
The Deacon and the Xeno should logically come from a similar source since they seem tied to each-other genetically (like cousins maybe).
What happens or what not I don’t think that they should contradict too much of what they have aid and what we saw in Prometheus. Discussing things in fine but you got to have some continuity and consistence along the way otherwise you almost need to invent something totally new every time and there might be a risk that these things might not be very connected to each-other logically speaking.
“Prometheus Crew Arrive late 2093, contaminate the Room the Black Goo is stored and one consequence via David 8 experiment is to infect a Human, who passes on something that causes another Human to fall Pregnant with a Hybrid Child... that is removed.... becomes a sort of Face Huger that infects a Engineer and leads to a Deacon Xenomorph.“
That is how I look at it, if they would have wanted it to be something totally different then they would have done it different, right? What ever they want it to be shouldn’t be very far from what we see on screen because if it is then the movie fails in a way.
I would like to know how the humans lead to the cargo in Alien (1979). Would that be human beings that have turned into Xenos from the nasty experiments that the Engineers did? Maybe this could be the case but I don’t know but at least it is a route that they could take. This is interesting: they kill humans to make monsters that would kill more humans and in a way it would make sense.
“Its maybe to early to jump to conclusion that the Xenomorph could never existed prior to the Prometheus Crew and David arriving at LV-426.“
Maybe, but I hope not.
Indeed i think they will be giving us more clues, and even if they dont connect LV-223 they would not need to provided they showed the Black Goo David has with him and how it could be used.
The Outbreak is a confusing scene, because it raises the question of how did the Engineers get infected as it seemed that way and references to Ebola again seems like a outbreak like a Viral Infection.
So we had to wander how do the Engineers get infected, because surely they have Safeguards, and Prometheus showed us TWO kinds of infection.
1) Fifield and Worms... which is via contact with the Black Goo Externally... (Weyland File came along to suggest this method was via inhalation.... which contradicts what we saw in various ways.... including how David said it was not in the Air... but maybe they could run with this as a way the Goo infects.
2) By Oral Ingestion (Holloway) we have to note this infection was via the contents in the ampoules and so we have to wander does the Weapon have Two Parts which mix which give he Black Oil like Goo that leaked from the Urns.
Regardless, we have to consider number 2 as being difficult as how does the Engineers all end up consuming the Mutagen? Unless someone spiked their drinks or some other element (something to do with the breathing apparatus?) that would lead to them being infected.
If we assume the infection is viral, do we assume the Goo can not pass person to person other than via close contact and exchange of bodily fluids. Maybe like AIDS does... we could also mention Ebola... but there is a chance Holloway may had passed it onto others if thats the case.... but then we need to look at how short the events of Prometheus was and so anything he could have passed on may have taken a while before symptoms began... by which time before this the crew all died anyway... Apart from Shaw..
But i dont think the infection can spread like this.
So when we look at the supposed Spore Leak Plot for AC and the Weyland Filre about Airborne...
Then indeed the Black Goo could maybe be used in a way to release it airborne, or even in some supply of chemical or liquid that the Engineers would need to intake or consume..
Be like infecting the drinking supply on a Space Ship or the Oxygen Tanks.
some Sabotage like this could account for the outbreak...
But i dont think we would ever really get a in depth explanation as to how the outbreak occurred.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think you have grasped the concept of the Black Goo now, and indeed the Black Goo in those Urns could certainly predate the Xenomorph.
If it does not, then there could be a similar substance that predates them.
As i think the Black Goo is the result of the Sacrificial Goo used on something related to the Xenomorph.
If the Engineers captured Jonesy the Cat, and used the Sacrificial Goo on him... then in theory the broken down material could be collected and Weaponized like the Black Goo to make some Urns that contain Cat DNA and when used on say Humans would turn them into THUNDERCATS lol
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017