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Alien Origin David's Experiments

Alien Origin David's Experiments

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DinosaurRaghhh

OvomorphMember21 XPAug-29-2016 1:32 PM

I was wandering what people thought of David's part on the next film.  I've considered Elizabeth Shaw being some sort of test subject in Covenant similar to Holloway and David being some sort of sick Dr Frankenstein.  I'm also thinking though that the Xeno's as we know them pre-date Prometheus and Davie; i.e. The fossilised jockey in alien and the Prometheus jockeys being thousands of years old - similar time to the crashed derelict in Alien.  So if the timelines don't fit with David being the creator I'm wandering whether Ridley may bring in time travel as I think it was hinted before, and or the Xeno already exists...?!!

79 Responses to Alien Origin David's Experiments

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-13-2016 9:11 AM

Exactly Michelle...

The point i was trying to make was regardless of where they was going with this movie, they have no changed the plans a bit...  Spaights Alien Engineers had evolved to Paradise by Lindeloff, there had been changes but the broad stroke themes are similar... just the Xenomorphs took a back seat for a alternative way to connect the dots and the emphasis was to build upon and explore the Engineers and set up a plot that lent more to exploring them instead of a straight prequel to Alien.

It appears again a change has happened where they now wish to back seat the Engineers and explore the Xenomorph.

So we are now arriving at a Aftermath movie, essentially Alien Covenant is a Sequel to what ever in some parts the Prometheus 2 movie would have been.... where they can concentrate on what connects the Xenomorph more.

Shaw and David had been intended to meet some beings on Paradise... Now we arrive at the after math where only David and a Evolving Creature are found.

But we see what appears to be Engineers in a Scene of Disaster its a case of is this a Visual to a Narrative David tells us and we need a Flash Back to visualize what he tells?  Or is this a scene of some aftermath after David unleashed Hell on them?

All we can be certain of its its not a Scene related to when the Covenant Arrives... surely not?

And so we also have Shaw missing to, we have to ask would she be revealed at the end to continue the Plot for a sequel or in the time frame of the movie Franchise.... has Shaw met her untimely end and simply is not alive by the time or Covenant or certainly after.

So yes its very logical to assume Shaw has played some role in what ever Big Idea and Agenda David has....  People would be wandering what happens to Shaw.... if she is a Plot Device to something we meet in Alien Covenant..

If we are arriving in the aftermath of when David and Shaw arrived on Paradise with no explanation to what happened to Shaw, this would not sit well with those who saw Prometheus and wander why the hell we dont see her or know what happened.

I think Fox knows after Prometheus that fans want a more Spoon Fed Approach and so having a few scenes that would show or give clues to what became of Shaw Post leaving LV-223 to the arrival of the Covenant seems the wise move.

We certainly are heading into the Aftermath of when David had arrived on Paradise... we cant be sure what was waiting there for David and Shaw.... (even though they was supposed to meet beings, this may change now). 

But we will certainly find out clues as to what David had been up to on Paradise and why we dont see Shaw much in the movie and maybe also why it appears only David is there and the evolving creature that he must be fully aware of.

We dont know yet about the Covenant Crew and roles, we know for sure its mainly Couples and i did a bit of match making and was left with 4 left over.... 3 Males and Daniels and so its which one is Daniels with.... if any... we know we have a Pilot...  but its hard to figure what Roles that Billy Crudrup and Demián Bichir although they have more experience than the other cast members and so must play a more key role...

They could both play that Corporate Slimeball like Burke or indeed a Android... they could also play the Captain Role too.

But its as you say Michelle surely they are not going to find the same place David 8 had arrived at by Coincidence?

They can not also have too much information, i.e had been to LV-223 determined what went down and that David had gone to Paradise with the directions to follow... as surely they would send a Military Mission?

But surely the Covenant or someone on board has to be aware of something.... or is it a case of  this ship happened to be off on a mission to find a World to Colonize... and then just happened to discover a signal from David....

I dont by this as the Synopsis seems to indicate that the Covenant Crew was not expecting no body home.... but this does not mean that someone on the ship has some knowledge the others do not...

So yes thats a really really interesting Point in regards to how the Covenant actually end up finding this place...

 

   

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPOct-14-2016 1:28 AM

@BD

The temple scene is important for the simple reason you do not build an outside set for something which is mere texture rather like the headroom in Prometheus that was an expensive set and meant something central to the core narrative. For me its one of those eat my helmet things if it isn't a scene depicting disaster on Paradise. 

It maybe a daytime/night time scene where members of the Covenant come upon it by night. But its discovery and whats in the temple ruins is going to set off "what happened here". This is when we should begun to understand the nature of the Engineers Fall and in regard to whom.

N IV would fit in with the evolving creature.Deacon through to Xeno but whilst we know two monsters belongs to the pre Logan rewrite there is nothing to say some of those ideas have not  survived. Indeed many of the philosophical ideas driving the story may have remained intact, it is just its presentation that has changed. Probably the biggest philosophical change is from a live fallen world that D & S come into, to a dead fallen world that David is active on when the Covenant arrives. This latter approach sets up the concept of relativism, if Paradise and its superior species have suffered retribution, from whom, as Ridley says the next layer.   

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-14-2016 9:16 AM

Exactly Michelle...

I have covered the Temple in replies to this Topic Temple Scene

We have to look at a few key points as far as the Franchise. That Ridley Scott has made etc.... not taking into account the supposed information from the earlier Prometheus 2 (2014) drafts.

*The sequel to Prometheus was to go to the place the Engineers came from, and further detail more about them and their purpose and Agenda.

*The Engineers on LV-223 may not have been top of the Hierarchy and maybe the outposts Evil Biological Experiments where conducted in a place far from them Homeworld.

*They are going for a loose connection to themes explored in Paradise Lost by poet John Milton.  Which tells of a Rebellion between God and his highest ranking Angel Lucifer which resulted in a War between God/Lucifer and rival factions of Angels who some had sided with Lucifer.  A tale of Rebellion of Creator who has great freedom of knowledge.   The tale expands to creation of Mankind and Mankinds fall at the hands of being tricked to gain Forbidden knowledge by Satan (Lucifer) and a future insight in to future suffering and pain for Mankind for there Fall and Future rebellious ways against God and various Punishments laid upon them by God.

*David and latter the Covenant arrive at the world the Engineers had came from, and they find its a Scene of Disaster, there appears to be no Engineers or their Hierarchy left at the time the Covenant arrives.  There is a Evolving Creature and David as the sole occupants of Paradise by the year 2104.

*The Temple Scene is of a Disaster, a Punishment the result of a War, who knows but it shows the suffering and destruction of beings who look related to the Engineers to some degree.  Set on a World that has the same Writings on the Architecture and Ruins as the Engineers did in there Temple/Complex on LV-223

So its safe to assume this scene is a flash back scene, a scene that in some way depicts one of THREE Things..

1) Beings who are on Paradise at the time David arrives, maybe he unleashes Hell on them.... but this would not give us insight into how the Franchise and Paradise Lost Poem's Fall of the Fallen Angels and Mankind and Punishment.

2) Some beings related to Fallen Angels, or a previous incarnation of Mankind (before we was evolved more) being Punished by God for their Rebellion against Gods rule.

3) A Hierarchy of beings above the Engineers being punished by the Fallen Engineers. The result of some Ancient War.

I think the Black Goo/Xenomorph has to be connected in some way as some kind of Punishment or Biological Weapon or a Biological Weapon made from the result of Punishment.

And so yes Michelle i think this Scene is of great importance, but i think instead of where they was going with Prometheus 2 and maybe more interaction and deep on screen scenes showing the Engineers and their Hierarchy and Agenda... we are now going to a movie that shows us the AFTERMATH

Prometheus covered and showed us that something disastrous had occurred on LV-223 something relating to a Outbreak of the Evil Biological Experiments and Warfare on LV-223...

We was never shown the purpose of the Outpost or exactly what happened in real time down there... just like we are led to the Space Jockey having his Cargo get loose infect him and he crash lands on LV-426 and sets off a Warning.... before gets Chest Busted... we have never been shown the Space Jockey leave where ever he was with his Cargo, or how he got infected, or the exact moment he got Chest Busted and what ever led to the hole in the floor that leads to the Egg Chamber..

We had a set of clues that showed us... Prometheus did this in various ways with the LV-223 Outbreak....  we did not see in real time what had happened to cause the Outbreak, all we had was a set of clues from the remains of the bodies, the experiments effects as far as interaction with the same Biological Weapon. 

It was the Hologram Scenes and Narrative by crew members of Prometheus who's dialog showed they had theories to what happened... which told us the viewers maybe what may have happened.

I think THIS is what we are seeing here in that Temples Scene...  so yes Michelle eventually the Covenant crew may come across some ruins and ask what happened here?  Maybe David knows a bit and can start to inform them....

And then we go off to a Flash Back Scene like the Sacrificial one, that is to explain visually what had happened...

I dont think we would be going to deep however, not like maybe how the Original Drafts had seemed to be going... as in that it appeared David and Shaw would encounter at least a few remaining beings related to the Engineers and maybe they informed David what happened...

We cant be sure if David and Shaw however found any Engineers or related beings prior to the Covenant arriving.... we are now arriving at the Aftermath of what ever state Paradise and Shaw was in after David had arrived..

We cant rule out in context of where we are going now, if they have changed the Plot so David and Shaw arrive at a totally dead world... with no Answers for Shaw.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-14-2016 9:28 AM

As far as the TWO monsters, the Technically not Dead Shaw, and many other themes... these all came from what the Source had claimed... among a lot of other information.  Which a lot never added up quite...  to what Ridley had said at the time.... (No more Gods and Dragons.... a movie that would go away from Alien and in a different direction).

But as time went on, things added up, Ridleys comments added up and so who knows...

Regardless of if the Source information is correct or not, we have seen Prometheus 2 go through a lot of changes before they had a Final Draft.... but it was all quiet... Ridley was busy with a few movies (Gods and Kings and The Martian) and we have Blomkamps Alien 5 concept....

Then we out of no where got that the Prometheus sequel was getting a green light and was to be Alien: Paradise Lost... which then weeks latter changed to Alien: Covenant and we had a Synopsis that seemed to be very different to the direction that Ridleys previous comments had pointed to.

John Logan had been brought in to work on the Paglen/Green Draft and change it to what we now have (Alien Covenant) but just as with Spaights Alien Engineers to Lindeloffs Paradise... while there are changes... there is a lot of connecting points and back bone story.

And so indeed i doubt Alien Covenant has been a complete re-write of the Final Paglen/Green Draft that had a long time spent on it....  it took a while maybe as touching upon the whole Engineers as God/Creator of Mankind and connections to then want to destroy us and Biblical and Greek Mythos connections was  very BOLD plot and one thats hard to do Justice..

I was working on a Prometheus 2 draft and those elements was a major sticking point so i abandoned it.... as it was getting complicated and would taken too much into those Mythos than actually the Xenomorph... which was merely a Agent of Destruction that was one idea i was going for but there was like 2-3 other ways like coming across something related to the Xeno and seeing the results and adapt it into their Technology..

It was complex....

I think Green and Paglen must have ran into the same problems...  and so Logan may have been brought in to simplify the whole Plot so it can fit more in with a Narrative that flows easy and connects the Xenomorph more.

But i would still think the underlying themes of the previous Drafts would be carried over... maybe just toned down a lot, and maybe touched upon more in future movies... but for now its about getting to the bottom of the Xenomorph... sooner rather than latter.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-14-2016 9:48 AM

A thing to remember for most people is Ridleys Scotts comments are nearly always very misleading at times and can have multiple meanings... potential Red-Herrings not as far as lies but his comments are set in ways that seem to lead to a conclusion only to actually be something else....  We need to be careful of jumping to conclusions...

A few such points i will make now.

*"It’s going to be it’s own separate thing because they are going to the planet of the Engineers and they are going to see what happened there. It was a disaster. And they will be in that alien craft that takes them there, but with a new group that’s incoming, a new group of travelers in the beginning of the first act"

This could lead people to think that David and Shaw are in contact with this new group of Travelers, we see David and Shaw leave at the end of Prometheus LV-223 and so can assume the next movie started with them going to Paradise but with another group of travelers and a number of Websites ran with this as though indeed they are being joined by these Travelers.

The Synopsis however, cleared this up because we had no Shaw, and the Covenant crew arrive at what they thought would be a uninhabited world only to find David alone... the Synopsis points to me that they was not expecting David well most of them.

The Costume Designer added the movie was set 10 years latter, and so David had been there for a number of years we can assume..

But my point is looking at Ridleys first comments it seemed to hint at the Covenant arriving behind and in part along with David and Shaw.

And so when Ridley makes comments about “They’re going to go to the planet where the engineers came from and come across the evolving creature that they had made. Why did they make it?"

Imply that the Engineers created this Evolving Creature that is on Paradise, but in other related interviews he said we would find out the Thinking behind the Engineers and why would they create such Evil Biology... and brought up the Black Goo.

So the THEY created it could mean the Evil Biology that plays a role in the Creation of the Xenomorph.

So i think Ridleys Comments are great as he leaves a bit of ambiguity to what he says which is always a great topic for debate....  like his comments on the Big Idea for how David who was in Two Parts will be back on a Whole New Way.

By Whole he means Once Piece... which we can assume is when Shaw puts him back together but its not as simple as stitching his head back on...

We have to remember... Fassbender will play David 8 and a Doppelganger and so Ridleys comments could put us off the sent... and he could mean a Whole New David.... meaning the other Role he is playing is a Big Thing... which could hint that the Doppelganger is different to David... and could play a key role..

Which is why i am drawn to the other Doppelganger David to be more like Elden a Synthetic Construct and this is where they may hint the Xenomorph Bio-Mechanical Look comes from.

Certainly interesting and i cant wait for more Comments by Ridley and more Shots, and even the Trailers to start so it gives us more to debate and also see if our previous debates hold up in light of new Evidence..

Also i like every new piece of evidence as a lot of it seems to keep adding up to the Sources comments...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPOct-14-2016 1:05 PM

@BD

Whilst I am certain that the retribution on the Engineers is in the past I am imaging the Covenant crew seeing what we are seeing a Pompeii like scene where Divine retribution has been meted out on them for their fall.

For a society of seeding gardeners to have a fall means they began to sub create and experiment. We have seen that on LV223 and the hierarchy have in all probability intervened either directly or by bobby tramping their experiments with the mutagen. Its a little like those who believe many of our virus's are the result of out of the plan behaviour. One recurrent theme is sub creation through A I. If the creature is Bio mechanoid they have fused mechanical and biological elements. This maybe David's big idea it is an extension of the fusing of the Jockey with the Juggernaut. If David 8 is a fusion and David Covenant turns up he D8 may have uncovered away of fusing the mechanical with the biological but with the mutagen included. David Covenant maybe one of the ingredients of the Xenomorph we discover on LV426. If David 8 is part man and part machine he may be able to dope the male Covenanters which leads not to a Trilobite but a face hugger. I think that is unlikely I wonder if the big idea is a sharing an exchange between David and Elizabeth with Elizabeth generating the first eggs. Equally as Aorta has said she could morph but if Elizabeth is going to generate an Egg Colony repetitive birthing makes sense. We come back to the same thing David + Shaw + Mutagenised Goo gives us all the start up. 

The wickedness perpetuated by the Engineers involves species cleansing and why a bio mechanoid ritual was created will become clear in Covenant. Does David create this particular variant or re ignite it who knows the better drama is the former. 

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-14-2016 5:14 PM

Absolutely it makes sense that in order to tell the tale of the fall of the Engineers or at least what caused the Scene of Disaster the Covenant Crew arrive at... that the Covenant Crew or some of them should end up coming across the remains of some kind of Disaster.

This is off course assuming Ridleys Paradise Lost comments and connection is valid to this movie which it most likely is, because the name change a few weeks prior to Alien Covenant was Alien Paradise Lost and so some themes from John Miltons Poem must carry over.

And as we are arriving at the start of the movie or 1st Act, at a time 10 years post David leaving LV-223, we are at least at the start going to be covering the arrival of the Covenant Crew who first come across David (well after a while at least).

We know there is this scene of disaster that was shot, and its not going to be the start of the movie like the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus and so the logical way to bring this about would be as a Flash Back Scene after some of the Crew come across the ruins of what was once some Ancient Society....

What do the Covenant crew know about this, i would assume for the most of them Nothing.... they was after all expecting a uninhabited World so the Synopsis points to.

So they will be surprised to see David, and then if we assume they come across some ruins related to that Scene they would have Questions.. and then a Flash Back could be used to show us what the Disaster was...

This would be like if Prometheus we never had the Sacrificial Scene at the beginning... this Scene was cut... and then reinserted after the DNA Match Scene when they tested the Head.... Thus then showing the Sacrificial Scene would help to establish Shaws Findings.. with that DNA Match... This was how one Fan Made Cut of Prometheus was done.

But some fans had also compared the Alien Covenant Scene to Pompeii as far as Petrified Remains..  I however dont think how we have seen this scene in those photos.. is going to be how the Covenant Crew discover the Disaster, i dont think they would come across the remains of the Engineers (or who ever) in a Stone like State like the Still images look like... but who knows.

We cant rule it out as they do have a stone like look to them, they are covered in what looks like Dried Mud as if they have had a Turkish Mud Bath... but there is another shot of beings fighting and they look a lighter color and some of the poses look like they would be difficult if these beings had somehow become frozen in time...

the Black Goo is implied in the Franchise, and maybe the dried Mud look could be as a result of the Goo being poured on them and CGI can add to this scene... But thats not to say if this is the case and its a Black Goo being dropped on them.

I hope its a action set piece, but only time will tell... i think one thing that would go against a stone like preserved scene of disaster like Pompeii would be that surely they would have the crew walk around this set and walk past maybe where these beings had died....

Looking at the other shots which show Large Trees... tells me they are going for a grand scale and perhaps these beings are to be shown as being taller than depicted in Prometheus?  Who knows.

Punishment for Rebellion is a common theme we have seen between Greek Mythos and Biblical Events and we dont have to see these shown as exactly the same kinds of Punishment as the Bible and Greek Mythos have shown... we are not going for a literal re-telling of these exact events.

Paradise Lost only tells us about the Punishment of Fallen Angels without going into massive details..... but it does foretell a prophecy to Adam about the many Punishments God will lay down on Mankind...

Sodom and Gomorrah being one such event, and to me this scene of Disaster does look like a re-telling of this event.

The release of the set photos of this scene of disaster does add up to what the Source had claimed.... which among many things was that the Biblical Events such as Flood and other Punishments had actually happened in context of the Franchise, but just not in the same time frame and way depicted as in the Bible...   They also said Mankind was the 4th/5th Generation of Mankind and to look at us Evolving from the Engineers as the missing link rather than from Ape to Mankind as shown in the theory of evolution of species by Charles Darwin.... these comments were a little odd to figure a bit... as they was vague..

But after seeing these scenes of disaster it has got me thinking about what if the Biblical accounts of Punishment by God in the past on Mankind, was actually based  as far as in context to the movie Franchise... not events on Mankind as per Bible... but events upon previous incarnations of Mankind and maybe these beings in that disaster are a evolutionary ancestors to Mankind?

Ridley did propose after Prometheus came out in context to the sometimes one must destroy in order to create... he did mention about on Earth that previous inhabitants had been on gone in the past.. and he brought up Atlantis and that Civilization and the way his comments are structured could hint that this Civilization had to be destroyed to make way for Modern Mankind.

This certainly is a interesting scene (set of the disaster) as prior to these shots i was concerned Ridley had abandoned everything about the Engineers and we was going for a soft-reboot sequel to Prometheus to give us a more Alien movie.. where our Engineers are gone and dont matter as all that matters is David  + Black Goo ==> Xenomorphs.

But  this scene has given me hope that they would be covering the Engineers at least in some light, and Paradise Lost...

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-14-2016 5:30 PM

Its interesting to be given clues to what kind of conflict had occurred as we was told the Engineers did not come from LV-223 but the location that we would call Paradise.  We have to ask what caused these Engineers to make such Horrific Experiments they could not control on LV-223, was it merely a outbreak by accident like Janek made the analogy with the Science Outpost he had to Nuke because some Fool Spilled something.

Or was there some element of sabotage involved? We certainly have to wander why the Last Engineer Survived... and the Original Scenes with him painted a different picture to the aggressive and peed off Engineer we got... the concept work even had this Engineers Cryo-Pod Labeled as Hero-Chamber....

But we have to remember that what ever background and Agenda they had then could have been re-designed as they wanted to portray them in a different light...

It certainly however would be interesting to find some answers to LV-223, especially as Prometheus was trying to show us that LV-223 and the Xenomorph was connected.. if this was not the place they created it... they certainly used it to experiment and created something that was either from the Xenomorph... or that would eventually lead to it.

Ridley said that the aim of the next movie is to show us why they would create such a Bio-Mechanical Beast and it was a Weapon and we would be shown why.

The Bio-Mechanical part is very interesting too, because i think we can over look that there is some connection between the Xenomorph and the Derelict ship they both appeared Bio-Mechanical....  yet in Prometheus the Ships appeared more Mechanical and the Monsters more Organic.

so its interesting to see where they are going to go with this...

The source seems to hint at LV-426 and the Space Jockey event being something very old... and connected to LV-223 very connected they said... and they claimed that Prometheus 2 was going to not show us how the Xenomorph was CREATED... but how it can be RE-CREATED....  

Ridley i think did say after Alien Covenant announcement they are going to show us why the Engineers created the xenomorph... and we will see the Xenomorph re-introduced in this movie....  He also said there is a evolution to the this movie and another movie would evolve from this one... and a 3rd movie would then get to why the Space Jockey had that Alien inside him.

Well the Fresco and Mural in Prometheus seemed to hint that the Xenomorph or similar was known to them... and it showed a Xeno Egg.... and its a case of something similar was known to the Engineers thousands of years ago... or those Mural/Frescos are a Prophecy..

While Logan has changed the draft... i am not sure he has changed it dramatically, but there are people now who seem to think that what happens in context to Alien Covenants timeline of 2104 eventually ends up being the Derelict on LV-426 some 18 years latter.

I hope this is not the case.... its certainly not the case with Ridleys comments right up until Alien Covenant and appears to not be the case with the sources comments.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-14-2016 5:46 PM

As far as with Shaw, i think this has to be a big part of the Plot, she is a massive Plot Device if you ask me... while she may not play a big role she would certainly have a big impact on the Plot..

The Sacrificial Engineer was not in the movie long.. but his prologue scene set up a lot of the movies Plot.

At a time when there was no news on Prometheus 2, the source had gave some information.. at a time when Ridley was still on about eventually we would get a sequel but it would not be about the cooked beast and Gods..... but would follow Shaw and David.

The source had claimed David and Shaws role was only 1 of 3 Plots and the other Two Plots where bigger, they hinted Shaw would not play a large role but she would not be dead.. technically not anyway... they said David plays a important role in the movie..

All of a sudden some 6-7 months after we have the Synopsis and there is No Shaw.... and then she was confirmed to not be in the movie... so many assumed... when she was just confirmed to not be joining the cast to shoot any scenes.... but latter she did.

just after Alien Covenant was announced the source gave some more insight, before anything was released only just the Synopsis and few comments but no  details  related to what the source had further explained....   which was they said in context of Paradise Lost and the movie (i assume they meant Prometheus 2 as they said they dont know what Alien Covenant was about so no knowledge of Logans changes).  they said within context to Paradise Lost there would be no Xenomorphs without Sin... which i assume was meant as Satans Daughter who is found at the Gates of Hell and constantly Pregnant giving birth to the Hounds of Hell.

Then it brings me back to what was said February 2015 regarding concept ideas about some Humanoid attached to some HR Giger Machine in Cruciform pose they said it was similar to the Deacon Mural but also reminded them of a HR Gigers take on the Superman 3 Robot Girl Scene.

Ridley did say regarding David and his Hell he is bringing with him, what happens if Back Goo infects a God or Machine... so maybe there is a connection?

So indeed i think when we look at what Prometheus 2 was setting up to show, and the Source said Shaw would find out the answers she wants but they would reveal a very sinister Agenda and Purpose that would totally go against what Shaw would be expected... as far as our creation and purpose..

And so who knows.... i am being drawn to the Engineers or Humans or both having some sinister purpose..  and the Sources comments about The Matrix actually being more connected theme wise than Paradise Lost or the Greek Mythos is very interesting...

We know Mankind was being used for a sinister purpose that mankind (kept in the Matrix) was unaware of...

Was Mankind used for another purpose?  did a group of Engineers take us to another place to free us from this and then raise us to serve them and was this against the will of the Hierarchy and why they was punished?   Was this sinister Agenda the Engineers role, but they sub-created us to take there place?

Who knows... i think the scope for the plot is huge and i hope they dont give up on it all, and we get some clues.. that can be evolved upon latter... once the Fanboys get the Spoon Fed Xeno answers start with this movie and maybe end in the next.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPOct-15-2016 1:32 AM

@BD

On the technical question of the "scoop" of the scene of disaster. What we are looking at is set preparation in to which two elements will be added.

1) The actors who will move amongst the set and be filmed.

2) Lasers will cut up the scene dimensionally so the actors and any extras know what they are really looking at. So the temple will appear in the final cut whereas whats above and to its sides will be added and Ridley will giving scene direction to actors and extras as to what they are actually seeing.

So I believe with the enormous amount of detail in the sculpting on set they are not serving as a group of maquettes for moving CGI characters but they are part of the actual set.

It is possible this scene (In real time when it actually occurs) will be the prologue with full CGI movement of the Engineers running to the temple but I suspect David acting as narrator will indicate what he thinks happened and through dialogue they will interpret the scene. To actually show the Engineers running as CGI takes away the mystery of these fossilised remains. That is not Ridley's style.

The prologue incidentally will be one of three possibilities :-

1) The coming together of W & Y and the receipt of a message by Y shared with W.

2) The moment of retribution acting rather like the moment of sacrifice. 

3) The set up of the David and Shaw changes.

I go with No 3 at the moment. 

Source

I have found your remarks about the source fascinating the only bit that baffles me is they can not give you any hard answers on what Prometheus means and yet the film was made 4 years ago. The plot is no longer an industrial secret and all they offer is the clues are there if you want them. I am comfortable with Prometheus and the phase here has made me work through what  we definitely do know, and in addition if we invest effort we can also make our own assumptions based on Lindelof's Law but surely your source knows what the Fresco, Mural and the holograms actually mean.

I have found my answers that are certain from the commentaries :-

1) The mutagen the Ebola break out which destroyed the airfields population and one Engineer "got lucky". He was on a mission with three other pilots to destroy so they could create anew. Why because you can. Shaw's view is she needs more answers she will get them in Covenant and the answer is the destruction of mankind would have been one of the consequences of a fall. One of the other consequences of the fall is to find the Engineers (a species wedded to sacrificial rituals for creation) has experimented with adding other elements into the catalyser including ones that lead to a mechanical outcome and the danger there is the machines take over (The Matrix riff).

2) The fresco - sacrifice - the egg barely visible even after multiple viewings of the actually movie is in my view a prophetic Easter Egg for the most challenging fan.

3) The mural - tomb. My speculation being the Deacon was sacrificed to produce the mutagenised Goo with his head piece fused into the alter but this was essentially provided as an artistic riff to Giger. The only complete unknown is what happened to the suited up Engineers who made it into the headroom. They maybe attempted a second take off/ turned out to be the Space Jockey/it actually doesn't matter it was merely setting up what comes latter Space Jockey = Engineer which shares our DNA. 

4) The headroom "Another set that I worked on was known as the "Head Room." This was a ceremonial room that contained hundreds of ampules beneath a giant sculpture of an Engineer's head". Straight from the artist.

So I am curious Big Dave why can you source not give definitive answers on a film made four years ago. 

 

      

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-15-2016 1:05 PM

You raise some very valid points, trying to piece together the puzzle is something not quite so easy, i think having different contradicting comments and so many changes from Production of Prometheus to Shooting (Production began based off Spaights work and Lindeloff started to re-write the draft while concept work had been done and production under way) this dont help with the clear picture of whats going on, did they ever had a Solid A-Z plot of whats been going on?  Or is it a kind of make it up as they go along?

I have studied the movie in depth, and i have tried to make things fit but the sets of clues i could be using could have unintentionally been clues... such as trying to tie in the Fresco to the Prometheus Mythos and i noticed the Fresco was similar to one painting of Prometheus and his Punishment....  and taking into account Spaights draft and then the Mural.

So indeed if some of the clues i am using are not even meant to be clues then i could be completely off with what i have figured out.... If the Face Hugers in the Mural and Frescos are just Easter Eggs, well its something that could lead fans up a Garden Path to a completely different outcome... we have to ask why add such things.

The same can be said with the Disaster Set... i was not thinking they would be using CGI for the Engineers, maybe overlay like they did with Prometheus to add that Polish.... but i assumed and its hard to make out with such low resolution if the Set is actually Actors and Actresses?

But you mention they could be sculpted prop pieces... who knows if so then indeed it takes us on a different route as a Pompeii style Petrified as Stone Humanoid Remains Scene would make sense then... certainly not be a still image intended to be take from a action scene if indeed those Humanoids are Props and not Actors/Actresses.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-15-2016 1:16 PM

As far as the Source this is something i have always said to be taken with a pinch of salt and for me i was skeptical as some things where a bit odd.... But then Ridley had months latter made comments and even after Alien Paradise Lost and Covenant was announced things seem to then connect to the Sources bizarre comments.

I have not spoken or had contact directly with the Source, its someone i know who has spoken to them, and this person is more skeptical than me but they have not invested a lot of time to study Prometheus as i have  and so the Sources comments to them may sounded more strange...   So we cant be sure, the Source did say in February 2015 that come the Autumn and especially after November that things would come out that will back up what they had been saying. So i can not be 100% sure, i have gone from being 15-20% believer in the information to a 40-50% since Alien Covenant had began production.

As far as the answers to Prometheus, they had been vague and cryptic like Ridley Scott, it seems that the planned Prometheus 2 would address a number of those mysteries from Prometheus and so i dont think they would give definite answers because this is what in part the sequel would be covering.

They did say that LV-223 and LV-426 are very connected, and Prometheus has enough clues to answer LV-426 but they are not in a spoon fed way.

The only thing i can draw from this is that the Experiments on LV-223 that led to the Engineers downfall on that Outpost are either a event that leads to the Space Jockey, or the event of the Space Jockey leads to what ever they was doing on LV-223.

They did bring up that Punishment was what led to the Xenomorph but they have been very cryptic and so its a case of its a matter of time and its hard to say if there is even the slightest grain of  salt to what they had said.

The whole connections are a bit of a mess to be honest, i think the purpose of the next movie and its sequel would be to clear up the various clues that has led so many people to different conclusions.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-15-2016 1:23 PM

As far as knowledge of Prometheus that is 4 years old, they have been vague... but they had hinted that somewhere along the Hiearchy Chain that leads to Mankind something had been done that was not intended..... and that Forbidden Knowledge in the hands of those whom are not intended to have it leads to Rebellion and Punishment.

There is a theme of Creator, creates and creation rebels than creation creates and its sub-creation rebels and that this is the main theme that does not start with the Engineers and does not end with David 8.

And so again as with Ridley Scotts comments its all vary vague and we cant say for sure what or if the Source is on about or correct.... they did say that unless the vastly change the drafts with re-writes as they could still happen (which months latter it did) that eventually when the movie is done then things would make sense to what they was saying..... and the interesting thing for me is that The Matrix theme is more fitting... but again they dont go into full details....  so its a puzzle... and who knows it could be completely 100% fake....  time will tell and at the moment i am 40% drawn to consider the information and i am 30% doubtful and 30% with a pinch of salt.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-15-2016 1:37 PM

I think at the end of the day the reason for doing the prequels was to answer the few questions left from Alien.

*Who was the Space Jockey and why was he carrying that Cargo

*What connection do they have with the Xenomorph and how did it come to be.

These Two points can be expanded upon, we did not need to know how he got there as its pretty obvious from those who have seen Alien that this place may have not been the Space Jockey's destination and they su***med to the Cargo they was carrying....   Aliens and onwards kept making links about the Xenomorph being a Bio-Weapon.

And so its safe to assume this is what it was... and so prior to making Prometheus a few base things had been established.

*The Space Jockey Race, is very connected to the Cargo they have played a role in its creation and its intended use is as a kind of Biological Warfare.

*The Derelict thus with its Biological Warfare Cargo had set off from some place to go to a destination but it did not arrive due to getting infected with its own Cargo.

The Questions left are... How? and Why, and When.

And then... Why and when did they create the Bio-Weapon and then also what was the Agenda of the Space Jockey and who exactly was this Mysterious Giant Alien Pilot... where did he come from what was his purpose.

They had taken a Bold Route to show us these beings (Space Jockey) are Giant inter-galactic Genetic Gardeners who had played a role in the creation of Mankind and interaction with Mankind over many thousands of years, in which Mankind had been given knowledge to expand its own Scientific and Constructive Abilities. 

But then they had stopped comming to visit us.... and the Prometheus Crew found out that the place they thought they was being invited to by this beings is actually a place they was conducting horrific biological experiments that was intended to be used on Mankind.... but they could not control it and a outbreak had all but destroyed them all.

This made things interesting but it also leads to a potential poisoned chalice as far as connecting all of this Ancient Gods stuff and they then felt the Ancient Gods and Engineers stuff was what was best to explore... rather than the Xenomorph....

This seems to be the path they was going for, but have now had a U-Turn to cover the Xenomorph more....

i think going for the Engineers as part of Mankinds History and then having them want to destroy us... while a Bold and Interesting Plot.... is maybe something over complicated than if the Space Jockey was some Benevolent Race involved in some War and the Cargo was to be used for defense against a unknown threat that has no connection to Mankind but it fell victim to its Cargo.

Thus the Space Jockey was just like the Predator a Alien Race from far away where we know so little about....

But going the Ancient Mankind connection route may have complicated things a bit... just like the AVP movies when they tried to touch upon the same Topic with the Predators Agenda.

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

DinosaurRaghhh

OvomorphMember21 XPOct-16-2016 6:17 AM

I was thinking earlier about the early scenes of Prometheus and from my perception a peaceful race seeding human life on earth - and how this is the polar opposite to the same beings we saw from relics and the behaviour of the surviving engineer on LV-223.  Whilst satisfying the status quo, timeline and many talks about David 8 re-creating the Xeno (or a form of) oppose to being responsible for creating the organism.  As well as the need to destroy earth and drives behind this...

I'm thinking that the following has happened within the history of the engineer race and could be a possible explanation of what we saw on LV-223 being part created; i.e. no eggs or direct relations to do he Xeno, only the sealed cylinders of black goo.

1. As with Earth the engineer race found a planet that was at face value capable of sustaining their DNA.  So as with Earth a sacrifice was made and life was seeded.  However, due to some life form or biological characteristic of the native organism the terraforming has catastrophic set of chain reactions - possibly not seen immediately, but over a period of time, millions of evolutionary years.  This oversight sets in motion the natural evolution of the Xenomorth and a macabre love affair with this "perfect organism" and fractions in the engineer society; one wishing to harness the organisms power and the other to destroy it as to not risk their own destruction.  So we would have an explanation of Xeno eggs forming naturally whether that be via a Queen or via morphing of hoasts (an organism created by a blend of engineer black goo and a natural hardened organism on the Xeno's side planet of origin).

2. The planet in Covenant is either the home world of the engineers or the planet of origin for the Xeno's (I'm thinking the latter; splintering of Ridleys story the engineers home world may be a  direction all on its own).  So the engineers start to study the benefits of the Xeno and perhaps the black goo mutates (royal jelly theory) and effects engineer society and a biological level - thus the split between peaceful and scientific engineers. Or even that they are desperate to prevent a disease, or the spread of the Xeno race.  So in an attempt to control the infestation the planet is scorched, but a research centre for either the study of or the destruction of the XEno is established on LV-223.  The crashed derelict on LV-426 could be as a result of transporting or disposal of the Xeno's egg cargo to the research facility.  The accidents to create the crash and disaster on all of the connected planetoids could be as a result of the splits in the engineer society and or....

3. As a result of the accidental mix between the engineers source of life and the Xeno DNA a disease is created which directly effects the motivations of the engineers contracting it. Therefore some would actively sabotage experiments and or release test subjects of the Xeno's.  Our surviving engineer from LV-223 having the motivation to either destroy or save earth having the belief that we may have contracted the disease.

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-18-2016 10:15 AM

Indeed there has been some changes to the whole Agenda and plot behind these Engineers, and your assumptions are correct to a degree to what we had seen....

The Sacrificial Scene was one of a Benevolent Act, it was a act of great importance to the Engineers it was a necessary Sacrifice for the greater good benefit to their kind.

Ridley referred to it as being like Ancient Mayan Culture, where the Elders would choose one Person who would be chosen to be the Sacrifice and this person is treated like a Prince for a Year until the day they are Sacrificed to their Gods for the greater good so that the next years Harvest would be good.... 

I am not so sure about the Sacrificial connection as such as Ancient Mankind did Sacrifice to appease the Gods...  however i am drawn to the Engineers Scene as being more to it than that.

The Full Scene was much longer than the deleted Scene, but there is no Script leak or video of the full Scene... but there is on one of the Bonus Discs a extended one with Elder Engineer Dialect (Full Scene had two way between Elder and Sacrificial Engineers).

Here is a extract of the shorter version... and so this Sacrifice had a great importance to the Engineers....

The Full Engineer Speaks to David Scene was never shown as there was many pages of Dialog that Fassbender and Whyte had to learn and Whyte (Engineer) even acted out his own lines, but he was then dubbed over by some other Actor and most of his replies by the dubbed over voice was not actually the same Ancient PIE that Fassbender used.

The full Scenes of this Engineer which include when he found the Life Boat painted a different picture of the Engineer, we got the impression maybe he never full agreed with what the other Engineers had planned for Mankind.... but upon seeing Weyland turn up and seeing that Weyland saw only his own Agenda and Questions mattered and that Mankind was still selfish, arrogant and now they had found LV-223 and could get there and even had created a Life Form that can speak with the Engineers and use their Technology...

At this point the Engineer knew that he must continue the planned Mission to Destroy Mankind.

The Concept work for the Engineers Cryo-Pod was labeled as HERO CHAMBER... and so who was he a Hero for?  Engineers or Mankind?   And so its something to speculate about regarding how he alone survived and maybe we could consider Sabotage at play?

Ridleys original ideas, seemed to point to that there was a point where the Engineers or at least a Faction of them had taken a interest in Mankind.... until there was a point when about 2000 years ago... Mankinds Rebellious ways and the way we was acting back in those times was totally against the Engineers wishes and plans for us... they had tried to get us on the right track (sending down a Emissary) but we Crucified him.... yes the Jesus Angle... but they dropped this but the whole point was still Valid...

Mankind had become Lost, Rebellious ,Selfish we had turned out to become something they had not intended and so they decided to PULL THE PLUG

its also indicated that there could be TWO different views to the Engineers, Two Factions with differing objectives...

But we have to remember a lot was cut from the movie, so as to paint the Engineers in a different light.... now it appears they are no more than Biological Terminators who answer to some other Beings higher up in the Hierarchy.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPOct-19-2016 10:31 PM

@BD and the source 

Thanks for your response and for not being defensive and it also makes more sense with it being once removed.

My view is Ridley is quite capable of self promotion, he was in advertising for years, and he likes to use strap lines and power phrases to get his point across. Prometheus was "all about everything". So I think he takes a concept like Paradise Lost or the Promethean myth and allows it to "inform" him.

People then begin applying rigorous analysis to it and over think what is in Ridleys mind. Prometheus the myth as applied to the film Prometheus is pretty straight forward. Messing with the ordained way leads to punishment and bad outcomes its in practically every character arc and story telling move. LV223 went wrong, the Prometheus mission went wrong, both were driven by the same thing that drove the myth "Playing with and attempting to steel the fire"

I am quite sure the same will apply to the Paradise Lost theme. The Engineers society was a disaster the Covenant mission will be a disaster. The former maybe quite linear simply explaining what precisely happened on LV223 and where we are with the mutagen. With the mission there will be bad guys and the genuinely innocent which is what will give the film its edge so more multi faceted. Innocents reaching out for Shangri La will find it is not that at all and possibly those that took them knew that.  

However when discussing themes and applicability its possible to make everything "all about everything" when in fact sometimes a cigar is a cigar and it doesn't need a so called source to work that out. Whoever the source is the one thing they haven't done is sit down and write a cogent straight forward thesis for Prometheus and this coming winter it occurred to me I would have fun on my blog "myloveof prometheus" and pull together an interpretation based on only whats in the film and what the creators of the film have said about it commentaries. Just the other day I read a piece written by the creator of the headroom who makes it crystal clear its a ceremonial room where they offer the vials to an image of themselves. If that doesn't reinforce that what you and I think is going on in the headroom is correct nothing will. A head that looks like an Engineer is .. an Engineers Head.          

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-21-2016 8:13 AM

Indeed i think Paradise Lost has to play some role... but again we should never take it too literal... the same was with Prometheus theme it was there but not literal.... however depending where they go with it then it could be more detailed than the Prometheus connection in Prometheus.

Which was vague in a way that with the clues offers us a number of ways that could have fitted.  Only one that seems stand out to me the most is something some Engineers had done, related to what Prometheus had done... and they too like Prometheus had been punished.   But we are not to follow it up exactly as the Greek Mythos followed on after Prometheus and his punishment.

Likewise Covenant has to have a meaning or more... right now again i am thinking the Covenant could do with why the Engineers had abandoned us...   and never followed up on our destruction.     Like in the Biblical connection God made a Covenant to never Flood Earth again...

It would be interesting to see how this plays in Alien Covenant and maybe it has multiple meanings and so could apply to some Covenant David makes or breaks between Engineers or Shaw.

Then again Covenant could apply to a pact made in the aftermath of this movie... between the survivors of the Covenant and someone else....

But i would certainly be sure that at least one of those 3 potential Covenant/Agreements comes to play.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPOct-21-2016 8:18 AM

As far as the Source... the person who i have who was in contact could not get much out of them as far as totally spilling the beans, they did give information on the Engineers and their World, and Xenomorph... as we already know eventually this is where they are taking us... but the source is very coy to not give away Shaws role and also the 3rd Plot  device as to not spoil the movie.

As far as Prometheus it seems that the next movie would address what questions people had over that movie, but the Source had claimed that the movie had the answers, the only ones it never had or that was very open would be answered in the next movie.

So i think the meant that vaguely why we was to be destroyed and how the Xeno came to be and why was answered in the first movie..... The only questions that was not was really why was we created.  And this is where Shaws mission objective to find these beings would give us those answers.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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