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Alien Origin David's Experiments

Alien Origin David's Experiments

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DinosaurRaghhh

OvomorphMember21 XPAug-29-2016 1:32 PM

I was wandering what people thought of David's part on the next film.  I've considered Elizabeth Shaw being some sort of test subject in Covenant similar to Holloway and David being some sort of sick Dr Frankenstein.  I'm also thinking though that the Xeno's as we know them pre-date Prometheus and Davie; i.e. The fossilised jockey in alien and the Prometheus jockeys being thousands of years old - similar time to the crashed derelict in Alien.  So if the timelines don't fit with David being the creator I'm wandering whether Ridley may bring in time travel as I think it was hinted before, and or the Xeno already exists...?!!

79 Responses to Alien Origin David's Experiments

Diz

FacehuggerMember127 XPAug-30-2016 5:28 AM

Well yeah there has been some supposition about that.  Some think it's spot on, some think it's too obvious. 

Deep Space

FacehuggerMember320 XPAug-30-2016 6:37 AM

I'd definitely go with the idea of Shaw being a test subject of sorts and your Frankenstein idea!  However, as Diz says, it does seem like that's the obvious way to go so who knows!

The notion of time travel bothers me though - I just think it would be too jarring and out of place in the series.  Still, if done well I could be proved wrong.  (Flashbacks would be fine, for instance . . .)

The creation of the original Xeno though does intrigue me; and I have thought myself that it makes it much easier to tie everything together if we are to find that the derelict in ALIEN is a more recent event.

However, that does seem to contradict Ridley's previous comments about it being 1000's of years old . . .

I think we will see how the Xeno came to be via reverse engineering, or similar, from David.  Just my hunch!  How that relates to the SJ I really don't know!

I really can't wait to see how this is done as the scope for a mind blowing, perhaps even genre bending, movie is all there :) 

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPAug-30-2016 8:39 AM

@DR

The whole question of the reverse engineering is about finding the "truth" of the story. So if the artist speculates for me that is an artistic form of hedging your bets until he/she finds a satisfactory truth. That is why it is terribly easy to consider everything that has been said about the Jockey over the last 35 years and become entirely confused ! 

Ridley made a huge decision last year to carry on with the sequence of films as historical pre equals rather than go off tangentially elsewhere.

Once he did that everything has to fit that over arching objective even if that means some of the embedded tradition seems a little inconstant that is how life works as well as fiction. We rewrite history in the real world. 

I think the key to this is the mutagen, the ebola like brake out. Everything flows from that the experiments the fresco the creation of the deacon the "forerunner" of the bio mechanoid creature.       

David comes into the story of the mutagen he has seen what happens when you spike a drink. He arrives at Paradise (Lost) and discovers an evolving creature and with the tools and knowledge he gains he creates a "new event". He is now seriously self employed and his curiosity in amongst a ruined civilisation would be able run on.

The fresco's suggest that with the introduction of mankind comes the Egg that is the warning offered by the evolving mural.

Could David come across Eggs : Alien its possible, but it makes for much more compelling story telling if we  see his new found alchemy mixing mankind/robot and goo to create a neater more elegant Trilobite type creature.

I have watched the two movies with morphing in recently and a head pocking out of the top of cocoon is dangerously close to comical. It was certainly treated as black comedy in the nest scene in A. R. Edit  I watched Aliens last night and the more claustrophobic presentation of what are presumably all face hugged victims worked well. Sometimes less is more so the morphing will , if it is used, will depend for its success on its presentation. 

How Eggs are created in Covenant is one of the great mysteries. Is this something that Elizabeth could be involved with. If she can birth a Trilobite then why not. 

One thing is certain is if the lifecycle that we know we are going to find out about is created in Covenant it makes the story of the Space Jockey with an ALIEN infestation and that cargo far more compelling than"Yes thats a little similar to those guys over there". For Ridley it means some thing and that suggests its part of the narrative completion.   

 

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPAug-31-2016 4:57 AM

"There the eggs are revealed to be a part of a genetic engineering experiment being carried out by the same Earth company that employs the crew of the Nostromo.  The company are involved in a project to create a perfect killing machine, which was the alien of the title".

Those who are familiar with the genesis of the ALIEN script will know this is from the phase called Alien: Cylinder. 

This may well be the basic proposition behind Covenant who would create such a thing ….mankind. Interesting that W-Y have backed a colony ship with couples onboard to go to a location where curiously David is hanging out.

Aorta

FacehuggerMember316 XPAug-31-2016 6:52 AM

Among the reasons the egg morph scene wasn't used was Ridley's and Giger's dissatisfaction with the set. Giger in particular felt not enough time was spent on the props and lamented not being able to give it more of his time.

The idea itself is hideously brilliant and if it were to be revisited now I've no doubt it would be made to look amazing.

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPAug-31-2016 7:30 AM

@Aorta

After I posted my observations I thought I was being a little pessimistic and very much influenced by my reaction to Jean-Pierre Jeunet's take on the matter.

I have also read those remarks about the scene in A L I E N which chime with mine. This is one of those occasions when CGI could, as you say, produce a result which really reflects the deconstructive invasiveness of the idea. Equally like the deconstruction of the Engineer the camera could get inside the body and witness its awful recomposition but communicating a sense that the victim is alive.     

 

Aorta

FacehuggerMember316 XPAug-31-2016 8:33 AM

MJ- Absolutely, not to mention how much better practical effects have become as well!

Whichever way they decide to go with the biology, it's going to be the most beautifully depicted ever. My only big complaint with Prometheus was almost all the key scenes being depicted in the trailer. That's the one mistake I don't care to see repeated.

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPAug-31-2016 10:21 AM

@Aorta

I han three movies that year Hobbit 1 and Skyfall and I was horrified after seeing the films and Prom that so much was given away. On my first viewing of Prom some guys behind me where saying effectively the whole plot was in the trailer.

Whilst we are getting things like the mysterious woman in something I am happy to look in but I will look for others to comment on any trailers and whether they really do spoil the movie before taking a look C .

I am determined to go as I did with Prom with no idea what was in store.  

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPSep-29-2016 6:02 PM

Well the whole Origins is a evolving subject that has changed and may continue to change...  from Evolution that started with

Star Beast: Giant Alien beings and their Derelict Ship are found by a Human Crew, they are dead and there is a open Urn of sorts.  Shows that a previous Race had visited the Planet and stumbled upon a Temple that was a Sacrificial Place to Procreate some other Alien Race...  these other Giant Travelers had stumbled upon this temple and fell victim to the left over Spores/Urns within... The Human Crew soon suffer the same consequences.

Alien: Had evolved to now not include a Temple and Separate Hold for these Spores... but instead a Crashed Derelict ship with Giant Alien beings and the Spores are now the Cargo and from then its implicated the Cargo is a Bio-Weapon created by the Giant Dead Pilot of the Derelicts Race.

Prometheus: Set us up on a near by Moon, that contained a Outpost where the Race behind the Space Jockey had conducted experiments that related to the Cargo on the Derelict crash landed on LV-426

So the idea had evolved....

Ridley had said the Derelict was there for thousands of years, and then that the ship had been there within a few hundred years of the Outbreak on the LV-223 Outpost some 2000 years ago...

This seemed to be a connection.....

But now with Alien Covenant they could be changing the way they had been intending the Event.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPSep-29-2016 6:06 PM

And so with David's experiments... then yes its possible...

Ridley has hinted at the events of Alien Covenant will give us clues to the Origins and why its Bio-Mechanical...  There is something Evolving on Paradise that the Engineers created (or from their Bio-Weapon Black Goo).  It implies that something has evolved and will evolve more to we get to the 1979 Alien.

And so its kind of confusing a bit and a contradiction?

And maybe Shaw plays a role, remember David has a Agenda and once he gets put back together then Shaw is basically at his Mercy.

We dont know whats going on and the connections, maybe more would come to light as time goes on... but certainly will come August 4th 2017.

However the Source did give some clues, but seems to suggest the Xeno may have been something Ancient... but also something that can and will be Re-Created.  Thats if the Source is correct however.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPSep-29-2016 6:07 PM

I know Ridley was a fan of the Egg Morph and so maybe we can see something similar brought back into play?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Diz

FacehuggerMember127 XPOct-09-2016 5:44 AM

You know sometimes I think that when they made the original movie there were just these plot devices, or visual devices, that were included simply as atmospherics for the movie set at the time.  There were no really good explanations for them; they just were.

So now years later you are trying to develop a story with further movies and you have these huge problems as to how to explain all these props you used before.

I don't see how Sir Ridley can connect all the dots here, without re-writing a little history.  And that's OK with me, as I'd like to see the queen thrown out and the egg morphing concept re-introduced. 

So many story lines, from so many sources.  Endless possibilities really.  Sometimes I think we're like the church elders here trying to decide which books will be canon, and which to leave out.  Ridiculous comparison I know, but its the same concept.

If our boy David, or the synthetic with issues as MJ would say, is going to be the creator of the original xeno, then yeah, that ties back to the original script where mankind created the damn thing.  Well maybe one removed, but yeah. 

On the time line thing.  That just needs to be changed; I think the time travel concept is a little too convenient.    

 

DinosaurRaghhh

OvomorphMember21 XPOct-09-2016 7:51 AM

Hi, completely agree that Ridley needs to adapt and change his original story slightly. However, my thinking is still with the relics from Prometheus being a couple of thousands years old and a similar date to the original Alien jockey. There are a lot of posts on here about David creating the alien along with Shaw. However, I can't see it... I think David meddles with things yeah, but I believe the monster is already created way before what we have seen. Perhaps we will see with flashbacks and it links into the burnt remains of the engineers? Also I am pondering the significance of David? and the engineers reaction in Prometheus. Perhaps they created AI and it in turn created the Xeno, and David only stood as a reminder and he (the engineer) therefore acted to destroy humanity because of the immense risk to the universe.... Obviously just ponderings on my part... 

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-09-2016 9:02 AM

I think Ridley and Fox have now finally got down the WHOLE IDEA and Plot for all those Answers,  i think and hope they now have a A-Z as far as Xeno Creation and Why.

Where they are going with this is unknown, a lot has evolved and Alien-Alien R has not set down a Guaranteed Date for when the Derelict had crashed with that Cargo.

It looked old, Dallas thoughts so and it was Fossilized but i had covered before that the Space Jockey Suit could be more like a Plant and so its a Organic Suit to a degree, so it could be like either say Cactus type Rubbery Living Material.... or it could be like Snake Skin....

If we consider a Cactus minus its Barbs/Spikes is a Rubbery feeling Material and imagine this as a Organic Suit to a degree, and then compare how the Dead Cactus looks different, changed color, looks dried out and almost Skeletal to a degree.

Its not as far fetched to think of the Engineers Material for its suits as being similar.... and well a Cactus when it dies does not take Hundreds or Thousands of years to end up like the 2nd photo.

The same applies to Snake Skin, when its on a Live Snake it has that Rubbery Feel to it.....  but Shredded Dead Skin has that dried out look.

The Skin does not take Hundreds of years to get to this..

This could mean that the state of the Space Jockey's Body is not due to Thousands or Hundreds of years....

The only thing that goes against this is the difference in color with the long dead Prometheus Engineers (2000 years or so) the dead Engineer appeared to lose the Glossy Look of the non dead Suits, but then we have suits hanging up and so the material can not just wither and die while attached to a Engineer, as why are the none worn suits in more pristine condition.... especially compared to the Space Jockey.

But also we have to consider environmental conditions, the LV-223 Engineer Suits also look a little different and while the dead ones look a bit less glossy and gone a lighter shade of grey than the pristine ones, they are different to the degraded Space Jockey.

So its a mystery about the Age of the Space Jockey, Alien seemed to show that it had been there for a long time....

But the Prometheus ones had also been dead for a long time  (2000 years) and did not look as degraded...

Then we have the Derelict which looks more Organic than the Juggernaught... are they different ships? (size and proportions are different).

Or could it be after the crash that something had effected the Derelict to make it change somewhat... what if it had Black Goo that has effected the Ship to make it more Organic and some of this Organic Material had spilled on the surface (some bio-mechanical HR Giger matter on LV-426 surface near by).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-09-2016 9:12 AM

So from the above... looking at visuals we dont get the full picture, its easy to see the LV-223 Engineers and Ships looked more Synthetic and less Organic and seemed to not decay (if thats right word) as much as the Space Jockey, yet we know the LV-223 Engineers had died out about 2000 years ago.

So evidence looks like the Space Jockey had been there for a long time......   the Purpose of Prometheus was to make connections and this is what it did.... It was certainly no Coincidence that..

*LV-223 is not far from LV-426

*Derelict/Juggernaught and Engineer Suits/Space Jockey are similar looking

*LV-223 had experiments on that related Genetically to the Xenomorph there has to be a connection... not forgetting the Mural, Fresco (Egg) and how Shaws Baby and Deacon Chest Buster are connected in a way to the Face Huger and Xenomorph

So Prometheus tried to make connections.... and so we have to think was the 2000 year old Outbreak a Coincidence?  What of the Juggernaught and those other 3 Cryo Pods.. the Ghost Engineer Hologram showed more than One Engineer its had 4 and yet only one Survived.... the other Cryo-Pods had Holes in them... like Chest Buster (indeed underneath the Engineer Props where Chest Busted).

We have to ask when did this occur?  Prior to the Outbreak, or after?  But certainly a long time before Prometheus Crew arrived.

So Prometheus had clues to imply a connection....

Aside from Visually...... we then had Ridleys Comments, right from after Alien all the way to after Prometheus....

Each of these he had suggested the Derelict had been there for Thousands of years and one of his latter comments on the matter after Prometheus was to suggest the Space Jockey Event had occurred within a few hundred years of the disaster that struck those LV-223 Engineers.   Which puts the Derelict Crash at 1800-2200 years ago give or take..

Another thing to mention is Ridley said after Prometheus that the Space Jockey/Derelict and Engineers/Juggernauts are related they are Brothers...

This fits perfectly with Alien and Prometheus....

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-09-2016 9:27 AM

However....

Things can change.... but i really hope they dont go the route that the Space Jockey is a Human or Android... first while some found it hard to swallow the size difference of the Engineers and Space Jockey.... how can we accept a 6ft or less Human/Android is the Space Jockey?

Maybe yes they can have the event shown in the next few movies as being something that happened after Prometheus so after 2094 and after Covenant so 2104

Ridleys latest comments point to the next few movies connecting to Alien, but he did say he is coming in from the Back Door or Rear.... coming in from a different angle?  Who knows.

He did say we would find out why the Xenomorph would be Bio-Mechanical....  this could be hinted at the Xenomorph gets its Mechanical Looks compared to the Hammerpede and Deacon more Organic from a Event in Alien Covenant...

We have to remember this does not mean the event has to run in synch with the time frame.....  Prometheus showed us who the Space Jockeys maybe where and these Humanoid Engineers who seeded Worlds with their Genetic Code by Sacrifice....  these Scenes and the Hollogram Engineer ones did not take place in the year 2093+

The Engineers are implied that they created it.... and we would find out why.... but then Ridley said in same interview/comments about the Evil Biology..... and so the something Evolving on Paradise does not have to had been there prior to David...  when they said THEY CREATED IT it could be the Biological Warfare (Black Goo).

So yes we are given clues now that may place the Alien Creation as a event in Alien Covenant and beyond... but we are maybe also looking at Alien Covenant and beyond being set after Prometheus....

Ridley said they are coming in from back end...  could this be like how Star Wars had EP4-6 and then the latter movies was a timeline prequel EP1-3?

Can we rule out some part of Covenant will deal with the past?  Michael Biehn said he was told Alien Covenant was set Thousands of years before Aliens...

If the movie was going the route of the Engineers and connection to Satan and Fallen Angels from Paradise Lost, and while the movie may have changed somewhat i cant see these Themes being abandoned....

The Fall of Satan if related to the Engineers was a event in the Ancient Past...

And so we cant rule out Alien Covenant being set after Prometheus but covers some events set way in the past..... and a sequel to the movie or maybe the 3rd one could go back to cover events prior to Prometheus and not post Alien Covenant.

so we still dont know......

Spaights Alien Engineers was set up as a direct prequel on LV-426 but has some inconsistencies to link the Ship in that and Derelict and Warning Beacon...

Lindeloff teased both the Trilobite/Deacon and Hammerpedes are Progenitors to the Xenomorph and so again this contradicts Ridleys comments...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-09-2016 9:33 AM

How do they get around this....?  How can it be a Event after Prometheus and Alien Covenant but then be Thousands of years old...

TIME TRAVEL?

Maybe but i hope we dont go that route.....

Maybe the Sources comments give better clues..  as they said that LV-223/426 are connected its no Coincidence....  and that in order to RE-CREATE the Monster... or Xenomorph all you had to have as the Tools and Knowledge and David 8 possesses both of these.

They also said the Deacon had quite some Evolving to do before it would become a Xenomorph....

Maybe the Xeno was a Past Event, but one that could be re-created or that if something with the Tools and Knowledge is Re-created by David it could show us how the Xeno from the past may had been created without having to go and cover a movie in the past.

Scientists are trying to Re-create the conditions of the Big Bang, they are doing many experiments at CERN to give us a idea of HOW the Universe may have been created...  but they are not Time Traveling back in time to Prove it...

Could Ridleys approach be similar? It certainly avoids any Time Travel  Multiple Universe and Space and Time Paradoxes...

People found Prometheus confusing, we dont want to mix a Prometheus and Interstellar.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-09-2016 9:50 AM

So yes back to the OT

And maybe yes David could play a role, maybe he does not create the Xenomorph, but he could create something similar and show us in a series of events that this is how the Original was created too.... like CERN trying to do experiments on how the Big Bang could have been....  without Time Travel needed.

We have to remember Ridley and Fox had this big idea and expand the back ground of the Engineers to go off on a different tangent than to go fully into a Alien Xeno Prequel.....  it appears they have changed their minds a bit.... but Fassbender says the movie has the Scope of Prometheus with the Monsters of Alien its a movie that blends the two and flows right from Prometheus.

Ridley has said we are going to get THREE PREQUELS before we back into Alien.... BACK INTO could be a Big Clue...

If we assume Alien Covenant will show us the creation of the Xenomorph as we have ever part of its Life Cycle and so after the Credits Role we know how the Xeno was created and when and its after 2104....  We then have 18 years and another TWO Movies to cover what... More Xenomorphs... Once we are shown the Creation of the Xeno do we need TWO more movies with Xenos?

What of the Engineers, what of the Beast was Cooked.... why mention Paradise Lost and refer to Engineers like Satan or Fallen Angels.... why the LV-223 Outpost thousands of years ago... if we are to abandon these and go for a more Events Post 2104 (Covenant) and 18 years from this movie to Alien in 2122.

Then we have possible Alien 5 and if this does well, a Alien 6 with Newt being passed the Torch....

5 Movies from 2017 all Xenomorph based...?

And abandon all the Mythos and Background of the Engineers?  Alien - Alien R we saw no evidence of Engineers, Alien 5 seems to be touching upon their Technology....

Where have they been since the Outbreak, what happened on Paradise and why did they not come back and if as the Synopsis suggests... David is alone...

Was the Engineer in Prometheus the Last of his kind who survived past a Event that had lead to the disappearance of their Race thousands of years ago?

so if there is no Engineers Left Post when the Covenant crew arrive on Paradise... to Alien.....  how does this explain the Space Jockey if they are going for a event after the events of Prometheus/Covenant?

Again maybe and surely we would see Engineers again... but how come we dont see or hear off them in Aliens and other movies?

Maybe again we could go for Time Travel?

But i doubt this.... and i also doubt they would abandon the Engineers and Prometheus Scope...... which is why i FEEL the coming in from the Back End and Backing into Alien..

Is not a year 2094 events (Prometheus) to Alien 2122 as far as 2094==>2122

But maybe a Start at 2104 and go backwards ==> 2094 ==> then further back until we get clues of the Outbreak and its connection to the Space Jockey Crash the Thousands of years ago as Ridley had claimed over many years.

This is how i feel we are going....

But YES David will Re-create something that would answer the potential explanation of HOW the Xeno was Created before.

But time will tell....

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPOct-09-2016 9:52 AM

@DR.

I agree with Dis's analogy with church elders. Fandom generates ownership and entitlement when we actually neither own or are entitled to anything. 

I always like to reposition my reason for being here pre film because it makes where I am coming from clear. Its to have fun to trying to establish what would make for a good second entry to these prequels in particular what works for the big global audience out there. 

This film is about establishing the things that made ALIEN successful within an enlarged mythos. So the making of fear for the average movie goer is key. However how that it is contextualised to make it interesting and fresh is where we come in on our needs. But those things have to be balanced. 

Covenant comes into a history how much has happened already and how much are they a part off creating history. The Ebola break out is 2000 years ago and involves the black goo and we know that is why LV223 went to pot. 

Why did Paradise go to pot thats going to be answered and part of the answer gives us how come there is an evolving creature on Paradise. The Mutagen is linked to Paradise Lost. Now if you go on from there and do time travel or a long exposition of the Xeno origin then you have cut out some potentially really interesting drama from the Covenant and now plot. You have David, you have Shaw you have a ruined civilisation and you have vials and heads like Prometheus from which Covenant moves on fluidly which has Eggs and Chestbusters and the big boy. 

For me the combustion of the story comes from the intermix between a now David, now Shaw and a now Covenant with W-Y much more knowing than we may think. To sit round the fire and talk about where this monster came from and why it just snuck off with a couple is not very interesting.

For the the "now" ingredients to be actually caught up in the making of the Xeno is far more compelling.

Noomi spent enough time in Sydney (but not NZ) to get down some powerful scenes that complete her arc, to not not use her in a significant way makes no sense. To have two David's and Benjamin Rigby describing himself as a plot devise also suggest the story turns on now. To understand where Davids tools and knowledge came from is great to make it actually happen at some other point in the timeline when these are already prequels seems unlikely to me. We have seen the forerunner of the Xeno now lets see the next phase. 

   

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-09-2016 10:21 AM

If i touch upon the Potential of David and Creation of something, and Shaw....

Shaw was omitted from the Synopsis,  Ridley said she was not joining them for shooting (some outlets took this as she is not in the movie)  i begged to differ...  Then we had a interview with Rapace where she was asked about Alien Covenant and she implied she was not in it, yet she had a Smirk on her face.... which meant at very Least SHAW could be part of the Plot.

This did not rule out She had already Shot Scenes...

Then latter she did join the cast for One Week... which was 7% of the Total Principle Photography Stage... 7% of a Movie could be 6-9 Minutes of Screen time.... this is just comparing Shooting Time on Set to total % of Weeks of Principle Photography 

So this is in no way a reflection on how much Screen time she gets, but the Synopsis and so little time on set with McBride talking about every week when the cast met up before shooting the numbers dropped week by week until at the end only a few was at the breakfast table prior to shooting....

Alien Covenant wont be set over weeks.. maybe a few days..

So when adding this up, it would appear Shaw plays a Smaller Role...

What Role?  We dont have any clues really, we know that Something is Evolving on Paradise Prior to the Covenant Crew arriving......  David is alone... with this Evolving Creature.

No Shaw? No Engineers? despite Shaw being cast and a Scene of what appear to be Engineers or related in a Disaster where there are many of them like 70+

They CREATED IT (Engineers) and we are to find out why they created such Evil Biology and what was they thinking, and why its Bio-Mechanical.... does this mean we are going to see them (Engineers) create something that leads to the Xenomorph.... when does this happen, Hundreds of years ago, Thousands and is what remains of this Evolving until the Covenant Crew Arrive?

Does they THEY mean the Biological Tool that leads to the creation and so maybe David uses the Engineers Evil Biology to create something.....    

He was when Ridley talked a few years ago about Prometheus 2 .. he was "bringing Hell with Him" and what happened if the Black Goo infected God or a Machine?  And Shaw and David was going to meet some beings who are Not God and Not Benevolent

Are these ideas a part of the background still? is there a reason why we have No Shaw and No Engineers in the Synopsis considering this is the HOME of the ENGINEERS and Shaw was with David but now there is NO-ONE Home but David and some Evolving Creature.

We had rumors of seeing on set a Trilobite being shot at by Human Military type personnel....  This is rumor and not Fact! with nothing to back it up...

The Source however claimed the earlier Prometheus 2 draft (they gave information at the time when Ridley said Prometheus 2 would have no Beasts they was Cooked), the Source said the movie would have TWO MONSTERS... One would be similar to the Necronom 4/Ultramorph and the other a fresher take on the Original Designs but they are different but connected to the 1979 Xenomorph...  which means neither is the Xeno...

There was nothing to back this up either......  however we then saw the Alien Covenant Clapper Board and it had the Necronom 4 Creature on it.... and we since have had Production/Art Crew Items of clothing with the 1979 Xenomorph on them...

Does this mean we see both of these? which is TWO MONSTERS?

Surely they would not give it away as easy as that... we are all expecting Xenomorph Origins and so expecting the already seen and done to death Xenomorph, and why tease it with these items of Clothing?

Whats the surprise?  or are we going to see SOMETHING similar but not the same and so the Clapper Board and Clothing are a Red Herring?

The only Proof of a Monster is the Production Photo of a Hand, with the Tagline... were it all begins...  This hand does not look like the traditional Xenomorphs... its more Organic... and it does not look like the Deacons...

Its like a mixture of the TWO

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-09-2016 10:35 AM

"Now if you go on from there and do time travel or a long exposition of the Xeno origin then you have cut out some potentially really interesting drama"

indeed and your whole reply is on the Money....

We wont deal to deep into events post 2104 when the Covenant arrive... they dont want to be covering to much and so we can get more evolved story and characters and bring in some of that Horror that Alien had....

The Backing into.. could mean history and other elements could be touched upon at a latter date and movie..

As far as TWO Davids go.... thats interesting because Ridley said Fassbender would return in TWO Roles... David 8 and a Doppelganger and i dont think Rigby would pass as a Doppelganger?

We see Fasbender on set with brown shorter hair and what appears to be part of the Covenant Crew.....

I think the Synopsis is a key.... as why mention Synthetic David?   Dont we know he is a Robot already.... this with the Doppelganger and Fassbender playing TWO Roles and the Big Idea they have for David being in one peace... i think is very interesting.....

I dont think it means David replaces who ever is on the Covenant and so maybe there are TWO Fassbender likenesses ... One being Synthetic David 8 and the other maybe a Not so Synthetic Doppelganger 

As far as Rigby goes, who knows would the Covenant have more than one Synthetic?   or maybe a Android and a new kind of Artificial Being "Doppelganger" or is one of them secretly non-human unknown to the crew like Ash was?

Looking at the cast and how we have couples and Rigby i think he is just one of the couples.... but his Plot Device could mean he plays a Role in the Outcome as far as maybe First Time we see the New Monster?

Is he the first to be Face Hugged?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-09-2016 10:43 AM

The Source claimed that in order to Re-Create you needed the Tools and Knowledge..... well he already had used the Tools in Prometheus and he kind of saw the results....

He could Re-Create this with Shaw or even one of the Females on the Covenant....

They want to top the Chest Buster Scene, and the Franchise has re-used unused concepts before..... and so the Spaights Holloway and Watts (Shaw) love making Scene could be re-used...

Imagine David 8 re-creates the Experiment again, with Rigbys Characters Partner... but this Female does not know what has happened.... maybe David infects Rigby and we get a repeat of the Holloway-Shaw incident.... which latter we get the introduction of the unused Holloway-Watts Scene.

Only its the Female who is Chest Busted by a Trillobite and what if this then Face Huggs the Male (Rigby)  The Covenant crew well some arrive to the Room and see Blood, and a Exploded Female and maybe Face Hugged male?

David could persuade the Crew (or with someone on board who has a Agenda and in the know) that they take Rigby to a Room like they did with Kane.... and that they know what they are doing.....  This leads to Rigbys Character then Chest Busting or having the Organism removed...

I am not sure if this is what we would see, but it would fit with him (Benjamin Rigby) taking part in a Plot Device.. and Potentially Topping the Chest Buster Scene from Alien.

It fits in with the Sources... Re-Create... and rumors of Trilobites on Set..

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPOct-09-2016 2:54 PM

@BD

You me and Ridley all agree the beast is done to death buts that just in the "chase the M F down and blow him out of the hatch sense".

There are two ways it could be fresh and exciting.

1) Its evolutionary path "Where it all begins". I had not noticed the tag line BD thanks for reminding us. So we have a missing link creature Necronom IV. You know maybe Ridleys tease and the big idea is David & Goo = the evolutionary path = he is not just synthetic he is bio ..... But at some point he breaks his Covenant with Shaw or maybe its already to late "its been with us all the way". Thats what makes this exciting there are a lot of variables but my point is all the ingredients are all there to make it now. That also leaves open the chance in future movies not only to explore the tension between W-Y and the broader benefits (the green jelly) but who the hierarchy are. They put paid to the Engineers maybe they can help put paid to the side affects. So you have the antagonists going after the tech and protagonist looking for help to put a stop to it you know like an elephant faced creature that takes all this .... to a planetoid as an act of sacrifice and sets of beacon warning stay clear.

2) The making of fear can be the sheer scale of the infestation of the Covenant with more of a what happened off screen in A L I E N S. There will be bluffing and then right out of nowhere it gets really ugly. We may see stuff that feels like it can not get any worse ...and it does. Love making interrupted by a F H... or not the bluff. 

By the way re reading Ridley its Shaw and David that come upon a disaster thats part of the conversation from the few weeks it was called PL and indicates Noomi was always in the movie but I am fairly confident the disaster is pre David so he is picking over the bones of the disaster.   

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-09-2016 3:12 PM

I think the fear will come with if we can attach ourselves with the Characters and their Plight.....  These couples believe they are going to off to a Earth like uninhabitated World to start a new... like so many Europeons did after the East had found the West and the Americas...

And so it has to be centered around their hopes and dreams of finding this Paradise only to then find out they have arrived at Hell but its to late to leave and escape.

It certainly is a interesting movie in the making and there is so much that can suprise us as while we have some ideas, all the clues we have been given and synopsis and comments surely will not tell us everything.

I do think the word COVENANT will play a strong theme/element but its a case of how... and with the scope of where they would take a Prometheus sequel.... leaves us with a number of ways Covenant comes into play...   its pretty hard to work out how this would fit, but i would assume it certainly has to play a part.

Its just how many layers or multiple ways Covenant can fit in with the Plot, as Prometheus could be applied to  that movie more than one way.

I would at very least have to assume that one part of it has to relate to either.

1) Engineers be it past... or post Prometheus, prior to Alien Covenant.

2)Regards to contact and interaction with Engineer Technology

so what i mean is surely it has to fit and show us a reason why Engineers never came back.... or why maybe the company never pursued Technology on LV-223 after Prometheus.

And i would not be surprised if it involves a Covenant being broken.....  we could find themes that relate to Covenants within the Paradise Lost Poem and Greek Prometheus Mythos.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-09-2016 3:54 PM

If i go back to the Topic of David's experiments...

Well if i look more into the Big Idea and maybe what is meant by the Doppelganger when i saw the Prometheus Trailers and with information we knew at this time, i wandered if we would see this Synthetic David who is a little like Pinocchio become a real boy with the help of something the Engineers had "Big Things have Small Beginnings"  and so i wandered if David was too some how Evolve himself from Synthetic to Bio-Mechanical with the help of Engineers Technology or something related to their experiments..... but ultimately he would pay the price for this buy getting Face Hugged by Shaws Baby she had removed... this Ultimately is what lead to the Xenomorph

I was not happy with this aproach as i always felt the Xenomorph Eggs and Derelict had been there for thousands of years.... but i was wrong and i found out this before watching the movie as the latter Trailers Showed if you looked at still shots, a Head with Blonde Hair... it had to be David? or Vickers (could she been a Robot too?) was what i wandered... but seeing other shots from trailers i concluded it was Davids head....  so that put this theory to bed.

But thats not to say they cant go that route with this movie...

The Doppelganger could that be the Brown Haired Fassbender on set with the Covenant crew?... and WHY did the Synopsis tell us David 8 was Synthetic when we knew this? And then  Ridley said Fassbender will play multiple roles and then more than one role and so why not say Fassbender plays Two Androids?

What if the Doppelganger is not Synthetic but is a Artificially created Humanoid... Dark Horse had to sit down with Ridley and Fox when working on Fire and Stone to make sure they was not treading on the toes of where they would be taking a Prometheus sequel and Scott said at the end of the day it was all the same TOES!

The Source said while Fire and Stone should not be considered direct Canon... it explores themes and elements that Could be applied and happen as Canon.

Fire and Stone brought us Elden a Artificial Being who was a Synthetic Construct and so they was part Synthetic and part Organic......  Could Alien Covenant explore this?

Could Doppelganger David be a Synthetic Construct like Elden?

Elden was able to be infected by the Black Goo, and Evolved...

Could a Synthetic Construct also become Face Hugged and Produce a Part Synthetic/Part Organic Chest Buster... a True Bio-Mechaniod like the Xenomorph?

Could this be how a Xeno is made?

Whats interesting too is the concept for Elden in Fire and Stone.. they was toying with both a Female... and a Cocoon Scene... like a Egg Morph but they abandoned these ideas.

The Female idea looks similar to Sil/Eve from the Species movies that was based of HR Gigers works too.... The Fire and Stone Female Synthetic Construct also became pregnant with Face Huggers that would pass on Synthetic embryos... again a idea of how the Xenomorph could have came to be...

This piece of concept work which i only ever saw not long ago, did get me thinking to the Sources claims that without Sin as in context of Paradise Lost their would be no Xenomorph...

I assume the daughter of Satan is what they meant who was constantly pregnant with the Hounds of Hell who Guard the Gates of Hell, Sin is described as Part Human and Part Serpent she is also similar to Greek Mythos of Echidna who was also Female and Part Human/Serpent and was mother of Monsters which included the Hell Hounds that Guard Hades (Hell) and also is mother to the Eagle that was sent to Punish Prometheus.

In context to Alien.... Ridley had referred to the beast as a Dragon and Serpent before... So in Context of the Franchise a Satans Serpent/Humanoid Hybrid would look a bit like Sil/Eve or the Female Synthetic Construct effected by the Black Goo as shown in the above unused Fire and Stone concept...

So its certainly interesting to see if any of these things come into play or similar.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Deep Space

FacehuggerMember320 XPOct-10-2016 2:02 AM

I definitely buy into the Xeno being from a previous era and David reverse engineering, it or something similar, idea.

It does make me wonder what may have been lurking in the other silos/labs on LV-223 . . . People on here have suggested different types of goo that relate to different types of Xeno organisms, and that would be the obvious conclusion and what I think the audience was supposed to infer . . .

Maybe David gained more knowledge when locating and flying the other ship to get to Paradise; which could be alluded to, or shown, in AC?  Add that to what he may find on Paradise, and having a 'willing' humanoid test subject, and BOOM . . . 

It always comes back to me about the question of 'why' with the Xeno.  Hints from AC set-peaks suggest either an outbreak or attack/punishment of some sort.  Perhaps the Xeno, or something similar, was used on the inhabitants there and in time they began to study and develop it (using LV-223 as an R&D centre) - for counter attacks, a more 'persuasive' argument a-la the atom bomb?  Who knows!  (on a side note - i do hope we get to see glimpses of the Engineers' culture and a bit of back story as to what the hell was going on with them - and us!)

Also, we have a 'less than fully functioning' David to begin with.  Sure I've heard that he gets his head back on but is also becoming 'big idea David'.  I wonder how much experimentation/modification he will have performed upon himself?  Engineer/SJ tech does seem to have a bio-mechanical feel to it (Gigeresque) and who knows what the goo, or other forms of it, are capable of.  One thing I'd wager is that David would know pretty quickly, or could make a pretty good educated guess, and would not be burdened with ethical or moral doubts; and so would not be afraid to experiment . . .

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPOct-10-2016 7:54 AM

@BD

I wrote a long post yesterday and deleted it because I felt I was missing something and as always I went back to Ridley's PL/C comments.

You and I have always thought Shaw and David come upon Paradise and that has turned out to be the case. They come upon an evolving creature (from the Deacon the forerunner) and Ridley says what they come upon is Bio mechanoid and a weapon and why would they (Engineers) make such a thing.

You and I both believe the fall and the the production of the Bio mechaniod are connected. You have offered very elaborate allegorical analysis of how it relates to Paradise Lost and reading the Poem it is easy to see how. 

This means two terribly important things :-

1) The Engineers have/had the technology to blend man and machine.

2) We know that Paradise Lost involves a disaster (speculations include inter Engineer War) but I am much aligned with hierarchal punishment for what :-

A) Release from Bondage through a sub creative act. 

B) The desire to replace what they had created "the Earth mission".

What if A is the sub creative act of creating A I and blending it into a weapon a missing link Zeno. (N  IV the evolving creature) is the reason (or cause) of the retribution.

If this hypothesis is correct.

David would have access to the Engineers blending technology for :-

1) His own big idea.

2) Reactivating and evolving the creature.

Put simply the tools and the knowledge.

This really puts David 8 right at the core of everything that happens in Covenant with Shaw being his victim and the David that the Covenant meet is not a synthetic but a blended being with a whole heap of intel on the Engineers technology. In AC we may see Daniels uncover more than the mutated goo and that leads elsewhere later but this ties all the themes together and provides us with the Covenant broken by the Engineers the Covenant broken by W-Y and a good balance between the big picture insight to the Engineers as well as a making of fear narrative. That David is a mechanical and the Xeno created in its evolving state is bio mechanical would seem to me to give Covenant a natural and logical momentum and lead us away from some of the uneasiness caused by the evolutionary script of Prom.   

 

 

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-10-2016 7:54 AM

"Perhaps the Xeno, or something similar, was used on the inhabitants there and in time they began to study and develop it (using LV-223 as an R&D centre) - for counter attacks"

Indeed having studied Prometheus and looking into the Prometheus Mythos back ground... i was always drawn to these Two Fresco's being related.

The pose matches closely, the look on the face or Prometheus/Engineer and the scar on the Engineer is in the same place that the Eagle Beak is at.

The Prometheus movie fresco Creature looks like it could be beaked and one of HR Gigers other Face Hugger Concepts which is in the Mural is also Beaked.

This is not to say its just cir***stantial....  But we have to consider the Prometheus Mythos was about Forbidden Knowledge and Fire passed onto Mankind and Punishment for Prometheus for doing so.

Prometheus movie had shown hints the Engineers Seeded Life but came back and visited us over and over, and maybe are the ones who was behind our Advances in Technology over thousands of years (Ridley confirmed this).

Ridley has gone with a story (or was going for) that connects to Paradise Lost and indeed with the Fall of Angels and Mankind and so Satan and his Demons are prehapse the connecting theme he wished to explore.

Lucifer Rebelled against God, and it was his Actions that lead to Mankind falling by getting Adam and Eve to Eat from the Forbidden Fruit that gave Forbidden Knowledge.

Satan was punished for this..... he was turned into a Monster in some accounts.... and in Paradise Lost Poem he was punished by giving birth to a Daughter from his Head.... his Serpent/Human Daughter would constantly be birthing Hounds of Hell, as they rip apart her Entrails Daily...... This is similar to Prometheus Punishment.

The Source had claimed that in context of Paradise Lost without Sin (Satans Daughter) there would be no Xenomorphs..

So maybe the Engineers or their leader on LV-223 was sent something to punish them and the result of this Punishment leads to that Fresco Creature which in some way is the True Progenitor to the Xenomorphs?

The other Fresco this Creature appears to be holding a Egg in a similar pose to HR Gigers Egg Photo (he was the Creator of the Xeno/Egg).

This is not to say such connections are meant to be, its just a view connections i have interpreted.... which latter the Source Comments can kind of fit with.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10189 XPOct-10-2016 8:02 AM

So Deep Space yes there could be some conflict going on where the one faction was Punished but this Punishment did not succeed and the Punished Engineers then Re-Engineered the results to make their many Bio-Weapons

As for the Other Temples

They could have similar or different Bio-Weapons, we have to assume they have a similar purpose and David said there was many more Engineer Ships which means more then just ONE and so its likely the other Temples was where they got the Juggernaught from.

Spaights Draft and Ridleys ideas was that the Derelict had a number of different types of Eggs, each with a different type and the Outpost on LV-426 (Spaights Draft) they had been experimenting and creating 8 different kinds of related Organisms for use as Bio-Weapons.

So yes its likely the other Temples may have had slightly different Results.... which could mean Davids Juggernaught Cargo has a slightly different Xeno Strand than the one he used on Holloway/Shaw in Prometheus.

The Fire and Stone comics (Predator) however showed us a Predator hunting some 4 Armed Humanoid to a degree Alien Species and there was a Cave Painting that was like the Prometheus one that Holloway and Shaw found... only it depicted beings with 4 arms worshiping taller Humanoids (in Space Jockey Suits) which pointed to the same Star Map.

Why?

Maybe Each Temple is dedicated to a different Creation the Engineers had seeded?

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPOct-10-2016 8:10 AM

@DeepSpace

I hope you can see that whilst we are talking about David being a kickstarter in the narrative there is a pre existing evolving creature which needs to be explained and Shaw could be used in this way rather than a birthing vehicle. However where i disagree with you and BD I do not think they will make the back story very politically complicated it will be about ideas a fall why here is what the fall was rather than a full blown Fall of the Engineer History and to leave the right bits of that history lose and speculative adds to the mythos. Big ideas strongly executed with lose details round the edges.  

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