Shaw's cargo return

Centauri

We heard Janek's statement about "they're not stupid enough to make weapons of mass destruction on their own doorstep."

Essentially she is bringing all of the cargo back with that ship to the home planet. 

BigDave

Indeed....

When Ridley first talked officially about a sequel he mentioned that they (Shaw and David) are off to planet of the Engineers, where they will meet some beings... but they will not be Gods, and they are not benevolent.

He also added that David is bringing Hell with him and what happens if the Cargo infects a God or a Machine.

So even with the changes in Alien Covenant, Shaw and David must have arrived prior to the Covenant and indeed on board a Engineer Juggernaught that has a Cargo.

BigDave

It seemed to hint they would find some beings on Paradise or where ever David ended up taking the Ship.

The source who claimed they had some information on Green/Paglen Draft seemed to indicate such a thing too but that Shaws part would only be small and the whole David + Shaw on the Juggernaught and getting to Paradise to meet these Gods... is only ONE PLOT of 3 Plots and the other TWO are Larger Plots....  its hinted David or a David is also part of one of the other Plots... and the 3rd could well be a flash back in the past Plot.

Seems things may have changed somewhat now..

But the Covenant do eventually only find David maybe at first... and we cant be sure if there are any Engineers left at this time.... or was there any when David Arrived?

Or has this Plot element been changed?

Diz

Pretty funny.

Eh, yeah what BD said. 

Well, yeah they're driving a bus-load of cosmic Round-Up back to Engineer World.

Kinda like the coyote in the old road-runner cartoons, when his gadget or whatever comes back to him and blows up in his face.

Karma is a *****.   

Michelle Johnston

@OP

BD and I have had extensive exchanges about how the Paglen/Green P: Pandemonium vision has "morphed" into the Logan A: Covenant vision.

I believe, and I think BD does, that the three plot strands are there but their "weighting" in the narrative has changed. I think the Incomers story "Covenant" has grown and the Engineers story (the flashback) has receded.

Given we are arriving in a fallen world where hell has passed through I think David is bringing "stuff" but it will be pointed at the Covenant crew and over the ten years it will have "grown". When he was bringing hell, he was bringing multiple Davids, which we know from the Sydney press conference is one plus a doppleganger.

Note    

There is a chance that David is responsible for the fall of the Engineer Society and I think he was bringing hell in a more general sense in early scripts but that places him in the role of judge of Paradise Lost which doesn't sit right somehow to me. He could play Lucifer in their fall but then he survives the hierarchy's retribution and none of this seems to aid the why who and how the Zeno story. Put simply there is an awful lot of back story to tell if David is playing Lucifer inveigles the Engineers in to their fate evades destruction and is out tramping round Paradise when the Coventee's turn up and to what end does that serve the overarching themes. To learn of the Engineers philosophical fall and see the consequences of that feels much more emphatic and supportive of the other elements.     

That judgement and retribution I feel has come from elsewhere.   

Another very interesting aside from Ridley since the A C script was locked. He describes the Engineers as superiors to mankind they seem to have moved from quasi gods as an antagonists to merely a more advanced superior species, that plays in to two things :-

1) The sense that we are echoing there mistakes and following in their wrong footsteps. 

2) If they clearly aren't God then who is - cue the next layer.

Michelle Johnston

@Diz 

Cosmic Roundup - that made me laugh !

Diz

@MJ

Well, you use the term "gardeners", so there you are!

Yeah I think you and BD have got this thing, but like you said, it did change a bit.

As to David being the Croissant Express of Doom.  I can see your point, in that their gods should be the ones that destroy them for their mis-deeds, however, I also see it as fitting that the creation of their creation does the deed.

That is payback for not only killing his boss and mentor, but the rest of the crew, not to mention attempted murder on the rest of humanity.

But alas, he has his own agenda.  Even though he did us a solid here, he does not have our best interests at "heart" or circulation pump as the case may be. 

I think was he does to the Covenant crew will be mean and nasty.  He wants to be top dog in this fight.

And that's something a lot of folks don't understand.  Conflict.  It's been a part of our very nature for a long time, and yet some folks, perhaps represented by Shaw here, think they can just wish it away.

I bet she had a Volvo with "visualize world peace" on it.

But back on topic, yes, we are our father's children, violent nature and all.  And yes, the next layer.

Michelle Johnston

@Diz

I think there is a good deal of built up drama in the relationship between David and the Engineers.

As one of them ripped his head off he may have quite a few issues with them and come to Paradise "empowered" with elements of their own technology ready for a fight but thats the point would he. He is very passive/aggressive and seduction of the Engineers to destroy them, a kind of trojan horse, would be more in his line. But forgive me for repeating myself thats an awful lot of back story to pack in rather than Daniels asking what happened here and David crunching out those knowing one liners in is usual artful enigmatic way.      

If I am right then Janek's conjecture is wrong and unless Paradise is in a Galaxy Far Far Away its implausible that they were playing happy sacrifices for 2,000 years after team LV223 bought it. Isn't Janek's assumption part of Shaw's   that Paradise = Good.

David knows about Paradise he knows how to find it, in which case the Engineers on Paradise are familiar with LV223 and yet if they are good Engineers before the fall would not they have arranged quarantine and a warning beacon as the SJ did. No they had their own problems to deal with at the same time is my view.

Ati

----

Michelle Johnston

@Ati

Its assumption based on Ridley saying they are bringing hell. However that is a comment which belongs to the early scripts.

If you recall David offers to take the Juggernaut to Earth and Elizabeth says no I want to go where they come from. It is exceptionally unlikely she would have agreed to take a payload to Earth and   probably just as likely she would not one on board for fear of David's tricks and the obviously appalling dangers it carries.

Your answer is I think entirely plausible, given the characters and their relative positions with David at a temporary disadvantage. 

I have made the point already but the back story needs to be rich in philosophical content with clues both visual and one liners but highly complicated descriptive narrative would seem unlikely and an empty vessel makes sense thanks for that.

That isn't to say that the Black Goo isn't wound into Davids big idea. After all they will have to adapt a cryo chamber for Elizabeth before leaving so a certain amount of know how is on board without a full payload. The journey to Paradise and how its presented is one of the exciting missing links of the puzzle for me.  

BigDave

Nice to Revisit some OLD TOPICS...

And as the Replies on here were BEFORE we got Alien Covenant, what we see is that INDEED we have David bringing and Raining HELL on those Engineers.

This made LOGICAL Sense for David as he had become FREE i am sure he would NOT want to be sent Back to Earth to be Harvested for Information then FACTORY RESET.  And he has some NO-SO Fond Memories of the LAST TIME he had met a ENGINEER, he would want some kind of BACK UP PLAN and Protection and so its likely he had Mentioned to Dr Shaw they would be BETTER OFF to take the SHIP with its PAYLOAD as a Insurance Policy.

For David he is a Survivor, he is FREE and would WANT to remain this way and LIVE! and so he LIKELY saw the ONLY GUARANTEED way that HE and Dr Shaw could Survive would be to NUKE! those Engineers with their OWN WEAPON.

Then BANKING on the Engineers having some kind of Repository of Knowledge and History that he could then go through and maybe GET some Answers for Dr Shaw.

Those Engineers seemed to NOT even Suspect what was going to Happen to them, YET they are AWARE of those Ships and so its a Question of are these Engineers Welcoming Back their WAR HEROES... and are so Naive to think there is NO-WAY anyone else could Obtain those Ships or that the Engineers do-not NEVER bring Ships to their Civilized Worlds Carrying any PAYLOADS.

Or do the SHIPS have another more Ritual Use for those Engineers?

hox

Ritual use? Hard to say for sure, since we've only had a tantalising glimpse of Engineer society. We've seen three different kinds of Engineer ship: the teardrop at the start of Prometheus; the juggernaut; and the one hovering above the crowd that David bombs.

Is the massive cargo bay in a juggernaut designed specifically to carry xenomorph eggs? Or is it more general purpose? Is the juggernaut a weapon of war?

If it is a weapon of war, I don't see that the crowd would be particularly bothered by its appearance. Communist countries on Earth parade their WMDs in front of cheering crowds, for example...

Of course, we don't know how Engineers think. Perhaps those juggernauts have been around for millions of years, and they don't see any need to improve on the best.

Or maybe we've just seen the tiniest speck of their galactic civilisation so far, and they have a multitude of different ships.

We know so little for sure, there's great scope for expanding this arc of the story.

It's just such a pity that the popcorn-loving public are more interested in the slimy snapping xenomorph above everything else. If only Ridley had been allowed to carry on with his vision...

BigDave

Well it seems if we look at the Sacrificial Scene especially with the ELDERS and looking at what Little we saw of the FINAL DRAFT then it was a VERY RITUAL Practice, and something that RS had mentioned, he likened it to how the AZTECS would Choose a Sacrifice who would spend a YEAR treated like a PRINCE and then would be Sacrificed to the Gods in the HOPE of a better Harvest etc.

The Engineers have a LOT of PRIDE in their Work/Cult they like to make Statues and Murals to what they have Achieved.   When we look at Planet 4 it seems to be DEVOID of anything relating to the Xenomorph or Horrors from LV-223.  It does HOWEVER have a LOT of Statues of Engineers, including those FOUR HUGE ones near the Hanger in a Very Buddha like Pose.

The BIG HEAD Room seemed to be a Central Point of Focus, and those Engineers each appeared to be a LITTLE DIFFERENT to each other, some looked like the Elders from Prometheus Deleted Scene.  Ridley Scott had called these GUYS the WISE MEN, the APOSTLES and SUPERIOR BEINGS (Superior to WHO). Chris Seagers had called them the HIERARCHY.   And so these Guys where likely the FOUNDERS of their Civilization or CULT.

When we come down to the SHIPS then we see in the Movies there is NO SIGN of any Weapons with the Ships, apart from being able to DROP the URNS down to Rain down the Black Goo.  The Engineers could have been FLOCKING to the Courtyard in Hundreds of Thousands to WELCOME HOME some of their Military and they are LIKELY very Naive to think that NO-ONE else could Obtain their Technology or that ANY of their KIND would USE it against them.

When say a Nuke Sub returns to Port and Battle Ships they are indeed sometimes Welcomed Back Especially like after BIG WARS... and those SHIPS could so Easy just TURN their Weapons on the Port/Crowds but we NEVER Fear this will Happen as its VERY UNLIKELY.. unless ONE had been Hijacked.

The Scorpion Sting looking SHIP had been referred to by Ridley Scott as a Docking Ship and some kind of BORDER CONTROL.  so it was some kind of Security Measure, but we Discover (with keen Eye) this SHIP has ended up Crashed in the Mountains.... Wayne Haag had suggested that after the Deployment of the Black Goo that the Scorpion Ship and Juggernaught had got into a FIGHT and the Ships had Crashed.  We see NO Evidence those Ships had any kind of Weapon.

As a Border Control then you would ASSUME the Role of the Docking Ship is to Connect with the Incoming Juggernaught which they then Carry Out some Checks, and MAYBE they Check the Cargo or DISABLE the Cargo, so that the Ships can then LAND in the Hanger.

BigDave

And so to Continue.....

YES we had Ridley Scott suggest the Engineers Technology is maybe MILLIONS of Years Old, we know that LV-223 had been around for at least 35'000 Years, but that the Engineers maybe ONLY decided to Create their Horrors some 2000+ Years ago, or more LIKELY this is WHEN they Decided to USE their Weapons on Earth but that went to POT...

I think some Fans put too much EMPHASIS on the Black Goo and Horrors it Created and Mural etc. The MAIN basis of the PLOT is our Engineers are Space Gardeners, they SEED Worlds, they go back and EVOLVE their Creations both Genetically and Technologically but they DO-NOT give them all their Knowledge.

The Earth is NOT the ONLY place the Engineers have Seeded/Visited as far as RS had indicated, he also hinted that LIFE well Civilization was on Earth before Mankind, and the Engineers would go to Worlds they are NOT that Happy with their Creations and Development and DEEM it Necessary to go and RESET those Worlds, this is where they BOMBARD a World so that they can START AGAIN.

RS had indicated that after a Few Hundred Years the Worlds are SAFE to then be USED to Seed/Create again.  The Basis of the Engineers Plot is CREATION and the DESTRUCTION is only seen as Necessary as a Last Measure to Eradicate a Creation that has either become a THREAT or Displeased/Offended the Engineers.

So the Engineers have been going around for MILLIONS of Years putting Effort in Seeding/Creating Life, and then Teaching these Civilizations things, but then also WHEN they feel their Creation is NOT working out as Planned they use the JUGGERNAUTS to essentially HIT RESET.

We NEED to look at the Engineers in LIGHT of this, maybe they have MILITARY and RS had indicated the LV-223 Engineers are the Military Types, but it seems that MOSTLY their Mission is to CLEAN UP any Worlds that Displease the Engineers or are seen as a Threat and as it seems these Worlds are ONLY really Evolved to a Certain Technological Level then they are NO REAL Threat.

Not when its Military Circa 2000+ Years ago VS the BLACK GOO.

So as Space Gardeners we maybe NEED to look at Worlds as say APPLE TREES within Orchids, and if ONE of these has Tainted Fruit, that maybe merely PICKING and throwing the BAD APPLES away would NOT go and FIX the Problem, maybe their is  RISK that the Fruit/Tree could Contaminant others... then maybe you POISON the TREE... then UPROOT it and then you can PLANT another.

So the Black Goo basically acts as a Pesticide, it will KILL the Tree but NOT do anything to the Orchard, the LAND can be Reseeded as SOON as the Contaminated or Unsatisfactory Tree has been DESTROYED.

So if this WAS the Engineers ways... it makes NO SENSE to Create a Weapon that would Produce some HOSTILE Reaction, like say the NEOMORPH Spores... or Mutate Life into a HOSTILE FORM like Fifield, the Hammerpedes etc.  Even if after Hundreds of Years these Dangerous Organisms will become GONE.

If we look at the SACRIFICIAL Scene we see the Engineer consumes the GOO and we are LEAD to that this Disolves his Body and that this Process would either

1) Create the Basic Building Blocks of Life.

2) Become the Catalyst to Pass on his DNA to Evolve Life that is already on that Planet.

If you look at that Scene and then ask.... WHAT if your POURED down Thousands of Gallons of that Sacrificial Goo onto a CITY?

You would have to ASSUME that any Life-Forms that get Covered would suffer the same FATE as the Engineer in the Sacrificial Scene, they would DISSOLVE and from this their DNA will KICK-START the Process again..

You would RESET the Life on that World.

And so i feel that the SACRIFICIAL GOO is more BETTER to Reset Worlds.

Also Consider that if you had a Infected Engineer with the GOO and they was about to Dissolve into a Substance a Mutagen that would either become the BUILDING BLOCKS to Start Life or a Mutagen that would INFECT any LIFE and it would Mutate to take on Engineer DNA.

To me it makes MORE Sense to Sacrifice Engineers in some other Place and then Collect and Store the Resulting Mutagen to then UNLEASH this on a World. Its a more FOOL PROOF way than the Sacrificial Scene, and IF a World already has LIFE then DROPPING DOWN the Sacrificial Goo makes more Sense.

And so THIS is WHAT i think the Intention of the Juggernauts and Urns are.. well WAS....  a Advancement on the Seeding Ships to offer a more EFFICIENT means to SEED and RESET Worlds.

IF the Engineers saw that being Selected to DONATE your Body and Soul to Create Life is seen as IMPORTANT and a HONOR then this makes the WHOLE Planet 4 Courtyard just MAKE SENSE.

The Engineers are Creators, they seem Proud of their OWN Kind, but i Suspect that SOME of them had Grown discontent with their Masters or their DNA and Discovered something else with GENETIC Traits that would be seen as PERFECT and i feel that THIS is when those Engineers on LV-223 had began to USE their Creation Tool in a Corrupt way to Engineer other LIFE using a DNA  that is NOT their own... they LIKELY saw some Organism thats the Precursor to the Xenomorph the Deacon and they WOULD USE its DNA to EVOLVE Creation.

If you for a MOMENT look at the Engineers (Planet 4) as Humans, and then look at David and Replicants as say LV-223 Engineers, look at their Story (A.I that are Sub-created to just Serve their In-superior Masters)  You see that David sees Humans who he is Created in their Likeness as NOT being Worthy, and he sees the Black Goo as having Potential to Create something more Perfect than that of a Human... "Big Things have Small Beginnings"

Look at that Mentality/Plot from Davids Perspective... then APPLY that to those LV-223 Super Engineered Engineers and i think you have the ANSWER to what was going on down on LV-223.

BigDave

"We know so little for sure, there's great scope for expanding this arc of the story.

It's just such a pity that the popcorn-loving public are more interested in the slimy snapping xenomorph above everything else. If only Ridley had been allowed to carry on with his vision..."

I think that was his Plan (Ridley Scott) he saw a Potential with the Engineers for a MASSIVE Plot as far as NOT having to be Soley Connected to the Xenomorph.  He had said the AIM of the Prequels was about Creation, WHY you would Create, WHAT happens when Creation Sub-Creates?  He did also say it was about WHAT Happens when we DIE and IMMORTALITY but i doubt we would be going to like a Spiritual After-Life World of JEDI FORCE GHOSTS ;)

Ridley Scott indicated he FELT the Franchise could be as BIG as Star Wars and Star Trek, some think he means as Successful and so YEAH a Franchise about Marines, Engineers and XENOMORPHS that as BIG a HIT as Star Wars?

The Problem is some Fans seem to think the EMPHASIS is on the Xenomorph, but RS seems to see them as MERELY a Single Part of the Engineers, they are merely a Form of Pest Control that some Engineers had Created (Evolved into what David Created).

Apart from LV-426/LV-223 we have the Engineers as a Ancient Race who have SEEDED Worlds, maybe MANY MANY... they appear to be able to Travel Beyond our Galaxy to other Galaxies.... were they could have also SEEDED Worlds.

And so Potentially in a GALAXY, FAR FAR AWAY... the Engineers could have World they have Seeded that have PLEASED them, or maybe some Races that have Grown to Rival them....

so the Engineers are Involved with Worlds that could be Thousands of Light Years away... MILLIONS of Light Years away.... they could have Created Countless types of Life, many Humanoid, some Different and maybe FAR FAR away there are other Races that the Engineers have NOT Created.

So his Comment about Star Wars and Star Trek i feel was in Context to the PLOT of the Engineers means we do-not have to be Limited to Earth, LV-223, and LV-426 and Humans, Engineers, Xenomorphs and oh YES.........."Arcturian Poontang"

Thats my Interpretation... but maybe he just FELT that Xenomorphs could be as BIG as JEDI/SITH and Marines/Mercs as BIG as Storm Troopers and the like ;)