Alien: Covenant
Human to Alien morphing in Alien: Covenant and Black Goo effects on Male vs. Female hosts

Human to Alien morphing in Alien: Covenant and Black Goo effects on Male vs. Female hosts

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EngineerAdmin22765 XPJul-26-2016 4:48 PM

In Prometheus, we saw that those of the crew who were infected directly by the Black Goo (all male) exhibited symptoms of a drastic change within them and their own DNA. Deleted scenes showed Fifield (who lasted the longest) inherit many traits of the Xenomorph - losing his eyes, growing limbs and an elongated dome. Though this concept was scrapped in favor of the zombie-look we got in the film's final cut, the concept of Humam-to-Alien metamorphosis is still a hot topic for Alien: Covenant.

Following the news which revealed Black Goo and those Urns which contain it will be present in Alien: Covenant, along with the numerous theories fans have shared on our forums, it certainly seems like Alien: Covenant will build off of this Prometheus concept.

My question though is, what will the final product look like?

Does the morphing caused by Black Goo result in the same "completed transformation" or is each outcome unique?

How will the Black Goo affect female Human beings vs their male counterparts who come into contact with it?

Obviously there's no way for us to know for sure just yet. But, assuming Alien: Covenant will build upon this trait of the Engineer bio-technology, I'd love to hear what you think.

Personally, I suspect the Black Goo's "end result" differs from host to host, like the Xenomorph. I also think having a female exposed to the matter may trigger some form of secondary metamorphosis within the process - potentially creating a means of reproducing its "end result" asexually, like that of the Queen, or even similar to the popular "Egg Morphing" concept from Alien.

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55 Responses to Human to Alien morphing in Alien: Covenant and Black Goo effects on Male vs. Female hosts

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPJul-29-2016 9:32 PM

@BD Building on the theme of simplicity here is another fundamental marker. 

Before Prometheus was made Ridley had reached a point where a Space Jockey was setting out with a cargo of Eggs set the cargo down on LV426, set off a beacon to keep away and was chest busted. Whether the flight of the Juggernaut began with aggressive intensions and changed his mind we may never know. I know we can get side tracked by other theories but thats Ridley indeed it has alway been a bomber with a cargo for the longest of times.

What we know is there a relationship between the SJ and the Alien Life cycle. 

However at this point mankind was not in the picture.

Two things happened in Prometheus.

We saw evidence that the Engineers/Space Jockeys subjugated themselves to the lifecycle and created a Deacon. Indeed we saw it real time as well, done invasively rather than consensually with mankind/goo initiating the food chain.

We saw the revelation that we are them they are us.

We know an infected human creates a Bio Mechanical Alien.

A C only has to provide us with two answers :

1) How was the Egg created (we have seen one extra curricular method). Shaw is one/ creates them bringing female procreation start up to the party ?

2) Why it is Bio Mechanical. (we can take a very good educated guess and Ridley has dropped substantial hints).

The only other missing part of the jigsaw is to explain the exact nature of the Engineers fall, and in the context of their creators, and the precise punishment meted out on them. Curiously this could be left as conjecture through David and survivors set out to find the answers in the final film. Whoever survives they cannot return to Earth unless their intel rather like the Ark of The Covenant is known only to a handful in Weyland Yutani which might spring board the knowing enquiry in A 5.  

Put simply I think we can see how the big picture will evolve as the fast passed horror filled narrative moves forward what will be fascinating is to see how its left for the next one.        


DeaconMember10416 XPJul-30-2016 6:58 AM

Indeed Michelle a long time ago, the theory of us being used as Sacrifices is something i considered too, a lot on here was wondering is the Agenda for Mankind that we was to be used and created purely for Xenomorph procreation so as that all that remained was Eggs and this is what the Engineers wanted. 

I was not so sure on mass scale of that, but indeed i did feel at some point Engineers could have been used as part of a Sacrificial Role to Procreate Xenomorphs,  and the HR Giger Face Huger Concepts and his Alien Mural seemed to hint at those beings Sacrificing there own kind for this purpose..

Which then ties into Star Beast, only in this the Top of the Hierarchy is a Creature that Procreates itself.... using Sacrificial Animals.   And not Sacrificing each other as we see in Gigers Concept works... but taking this into account with the Annunaki Tale.

Led me to the same kind of conclusion that you made... this is that Engineers may have created something else to replace them as Sacrifices (Mankind)

The reason for this and order we have to wonder was it

*Engineers (or faction) creating Mankind to replace them as Sacrifices thus freeing them from doing so...

*Hierarchy above the Engineers, creating Mankind to perform the role that Engineers (before Rebellion) was intended for.

And so yes this could be a valid reason for whats going on.... but we still dont know if this is TRUE then WHY!

What purpose or importance is the Xenomorph to them.

There is off course conflicting clues and information that suggest otherwise..  It seems that the Xenomorph may had been just a Weapon... and a Weapon created from the Evil-Biology they possessed but we still dont know how and why...

This is one thing that is still very open....

Although Ridley did kind of hint it was in re-action to Mankinds misbehaving and rebellious nature towards the Engineers.

But that does not rule out the Xenomorph being  something created in general thousands of years prior as a Weapon and not something created only to deal with the Threat of Mankind.

The source did a while back bring up the Xenomorph as a way to deal with a threat and also punishment... but they also said Mankind played a bigger role in the Origins than Engineers.

Again they are always  ambiguous and not direct and so that could mean anything. Does not have to mean Mankind created the Xeno.... Ridley said they created it (Engineers) but then he refereed to the Evil Biology and so the Engineers role could have been just the Tools that led to its creation.

As i said with the Sources comments about how in relation to Paradise Lost..... Without Sin there would be no Xenomorph

Which likely means two things... i touched upon the first above in another post

*Sin as in Satans Daughter, Born from his head as Punishment and Sin is constantly Pregnant and giving birth to horrific hounds who guard the gates of hell.

*Sin as in rebellion and going against the Will and Rules of God, the act of committing Sin resulted in a action as Punishment.

But this latter point in regards to the Paradise Lost, could mean Original Sin and the First Sin was that of Satan and then his followers (Fallen Angels) of which many where cast out and punished and changed to Serpents.

So the Origin of the Xenomorph is maybe from what the Source (if correct) was suggesting as a reaction to disobeying God and then resulting Punishment.

Be that....

* Satan gives birth to something (sin) that is then the Mother of the Xeno Origins.

* Fallen Angels are mutated into Monsters that lead to the Xeno Origins.

So if i assume this is what they was meaning then the Punishment was sent down for a purpose.... but this Punishment backfired in that it created something Horrid.... that perhaps others then used to their advantage?



R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017


DeaconMember10416 XPJul-30-2016 7:10 AM

Indeed prior to Prometheus Ridley had mentioned the Space Jockey a number of times and as time went on his story evolved.....

*Originally it was a Mystery but they was going for the Space Jockey being a Pilot who was carrying a deadly cargo of Eggs... with no explanation.

*This soon evolved into the ship being a Bomber or at least a Cargo Ship for Bio-Weapons and the Space Jockey got infected with his Cargo and set off a SOS Warning.

*Ridley then mentioned this action was heroic or benevolent.... however is this only regarding the safeguards of his own Race.

*Ridley then said the Derelict had been there for maybe thousands of years.

Then we got the Prequel.... starting with Spaights his story may or may not have (Red herring) shown us the Engineer in that draft ended up being the Space Jockey but the time frame was not far prior to Alien and his intentions seemed Hostile to Mankind and also the Beacon was different.

We then got Prometheus where they was stepping away from the Space Jockey but trying to give some clues. However Ridley did expand on the Space Jockey in comments.

*The Ship was a Bomber, its purpose similar to that of the Juggernaught.

*The Derelict Technically never crashed.

*The Derelict was off to a undisclosed location but it did not get far, before the pilot was infected and then he had to attempt to land and Quarantine the cargo and warn his fellow Race.

*The event had occurred within a few hundred years of the outbreak that killed off nearly all the Engineers on LV-223 (thus 1800-2200 years ago).

His latest comments are just the same as above but he added that something in the Cargo Hold Evolved and it got to the Space Jockey.

So all hints was this event was prior to Prometheus and Alien Covenant but we cant be sure if they will change that now as whats not shown on Film can not be taken as Canon and can be changed.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017


DeaconMember10416 XPJul-30-2016 7:18 AM

"However at this point mankind was not in the picture"

As far as recent time yes, i.e after the Engineers stopped visiting us and to the time Prometheus Mission landed on LV-223

The earliest comments the Source made, was that Prometheus was not the first time Mankind had been to that system (assume is Zeta 2 i.e LV-223 or LV-426).

Other comments regarding Mankind was that we as of now and 22nd century are 4th/5th Generation of our kind and Evolution of Mankind is not how Darwin had suggested.

They hinted that previous Generations had been wiped out by God, and that sometimes to create one must destroy.

And so i can only assume that they was hinting at Mankind Evolving from Engineers or something related and not a Ape.....   and maybe one of these earlier Generations had been involved in Rebellion and intended destruction and maybe also been to the LV-223 system prior.

We certainly need to ask why did LV-223 have a Big Head Statue was it for self worship and to showcase what these Engineers Achieved and then throughout Ancient Mankind was we left clues to that System. It certainly was not a invitation.

So we still cant rule out how deep or what role Engineers interactions with Ancient Mankind went... or if Mankind or some of us where ever taken from Earth to that system in the past... or did we originate from there.

Ridley also said the Sacrificial Scene did not have to be Earth its just how they did things.. This leaves it very open for us to ask..... Was Earth the only place they seeded Mankind or indeed Humanoid life in their own image?


R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017


DeaconMember10416 XPJul-30-2016 7:48 AM

Maybe the Answers is with regards to Paradise Lost..... Ridley said the Poem has a similar tone etc but thats where it ends... 

So its not a case of God a powerful being who lives in Heaven above the Earth, created Angels, created one Angel as Perfect that the others who Rebelled and was cast out of Heaven and to Hell.... Then God created Man (Adam) placed him in Paradise, in the Garden of Eden... then he gave Adam a companion Woman (Eve)

Satan had plotted to get revenge on God for being thrown out of Heaven/Paradise by corrupting Gods new favored Creation Mankind.    Which resulted in the eating of  the Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge and saw Mankind banished from the Garden and Paradise and have to Dwell and Toil the Earth.

Mankinds Fall would pay a heavy price, Mankind will thrive on the Earth and Rebel and do things against Gods Will over and over, and they would get punished for this over and over... but in the future Adam is told that there would be someone who would Sacrifice themselves so that Mankinds Curse would come to a end.

Satan and his Fallen Followers are also kicked out of Paradise and are punished by being turned into Serpents.

This is Paradise Lost in a Nut Shell....  but i dont think we would see a Literaly retelling but in what i have put above has to in some context play a role...   Key themes are.

Creation, Creation seeing itself as not inferior to Creator and Rebellion, then Punishment and further Creation a new... and repeat of the same cycle.

By not going literal... the Source did claim such and that events of Paradise Lost and Bible did happen, just not in exactly the same context as we assume... as far as being a event that happened to Mankind but rather Past Generations and that Paradise is not located on Earth as in context to the Bible and Paradise Lost.

So i think this means the Scope is further than Heaven being a place in the clouds and Paradise being a place on Earth and Hell being place under Earth..... as literally they are represented as such in Ancient Culture.

Prometheus had shown us Paradise is actually another World far from Earth....

So i think we also need to look at Key themes...

Creation, Rebellion, Sub creation and Punishment.

And as far as Sin and Rebellion it seems to stem from having Knowledge that is not intended, Satan did not see himself as being in superior to God (maybe as David sees Mankind) The Angels were intended to only see God as all powerful and to worship and obey him and only him. And to know their intended place in all of creation...

Satan was the most perfect of his creation, but he had pride and saw himself as being perfect and started to see why should he worship God, why should they (Angels) live under the rules of God, Satan saw the Angels as having more potential than merely being Gods servants.

After a Rebellion and War... God chose to create Mankind... a new Race who would then worship, and obey God and see only God as supreme.

It was only after Satan tricked Mankind to eating from the Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge (of Good and Evil) that this was seen as a Sin by God.... we have to assume this Gave to a degree a kind of Freedom of Will, this Knowledge must in itself had given Mankind something not intended... that there is no way back from.

Maybe Satan was given such Knowledge by God, that allowed Satan to view himself as no longer Servant to God and that God is not as powerful a being.

And so Knowledge is key.......

If we look at context of David 8 a Android who would be created to serve Mankind in every way... such as Data from Star Trek,  Androids who can never Question Mankind, always have to Serve them...

But if their programing was changed or evolved to such a way that they (Machines) saw little reason why mankind are superior and why they should Worship and Obey Mankind....   We see Seeds of this with David and indeed a Evolving Android Population who become sentient could lead to Rebellion such as we see in Terminator, and The Matrix

And so again its certain Knowledge... that can lead to Rebellion.

I think this is the Core Theme...... that Rebellion and Punishment and Fall comes from...

In context to Paradise Lost.... Punishment we are given details of future punishment against Mankind, by Flood, by Fire etc.

But the Originally Sinners was Lucifer and his Fallen Angels and there Sin was to be kicked out of Paradise and also to be turned (or a portion) into Serpents... Satan would also give birth to a Daughter from his Head (which he forgot about) and she would remain at the Gates of Hell, Pregnant constantly with Horrid Serpentine Hell Hounds.

And so while in context of Paradise Lost.... Sin is a disobeying of God, by having Knowledge and Freewill to see that creation can be its own King, and to not have to idly follow and serve God.  This Knowledge leads to Freewill and leads to Rebellion or doing things God never intended

And so in context of Punishment... we do see references to Biblical Punishments... Fire and Floods, and Plagues.

But as far as the Fallen Angels... it is to be kicked out of Paradise/Heaven and Banished... but then also Mutated into Horrid Serpents.

We are not talking Literal though as far as Prometheus 2 was.... and Alien Covenant.... but i think the key themes are important.

And in context to the Xenomorph... who had been referred to as Serpent and Dragon... of which Satan is referred to also.

I think its maybe CORRECT to Assume in Context of Paradise Lost that Serpents and Xenomorph are connected.

And so the reason for them has to be connected to the Fall and Rebellion which stems from Forbidden Knowledge not intended to possess...

How this connects however... could be a number of ways.



R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPJul-30-2016 8:39 AM

@BD Yes that covers the wider set of conjectures but to clarify my point about their being no connection to mankind was in the context of the drama. That at the end of A L I E N we did not know the SJ was connected to us that was a big connection made in Prometheus and as we have said that generates many potential reasons for  defining what the fall was. 

1) The release from bondage of Sacrifice.

2) The corruption of mankind by including them in the creation chain of the Zeno strain.

3) The determination to 'to create first we must destroy"

So to return to my theme of keep it simple we have a pretty good idea what the fall was one or all three of the above.

How did the fall manifest itself.

1) The attempt to release themselves lead to the mistake of angels becoming serpents (Engineers >Deacons) which evolved into a creature of punishment.

2) The possible creation of a mutagen corrupted catalyser which became a plague on LV223. 

3) The biblical representation of punishment being shot in Australia.

We know Shaw and David arrive to an evolving creature and subsequently the crew of Covenant.

My supposition is we will see all those dots joined up in C O V E N A N T and if not all of them then some reserved for film 3.    

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPJul-30-2016 8:43 AM

The reason I thought I would take this KISS approach in this part of the conversation is in response to your sources remarks that a lot of the answers are there we just need to find them and these are my words "some are hidden but some are staring us in the face even if no one has uttered the words".  


DeaconMember10416 XPJul-30-2016 9:59 AM

Indeed i can kind of see where you are going.... Prometheus gave us clues that the Engineers in part are what led to Mankind.

Ridley had hinted this event may not have been a one off event and that continued visits and upgrades led to us.

I guess one of the reasons we have to ask is WHY? why are we created.... for some purpose... or because they could as Holloway suggested to David.

In context of David 8

He was created because we could, but its also as a sign to ourselves of how far we have Advanced and what we could achieve the fact we have created Life like David is a showcase of our own Achievements.

But there is also a reason... David 8 is created to serve and respect Mankind, he is also created to perform certain tasks that for Humans could be tiresome, hard, both Physically and Psychologically.

David 8 thus is a Tool, but he also is a showcase of our Races Achievements.

If we now look at reasons for why we was created in other cultures maybe that gives some clues...

Biblical and Paradise Lost

Seems we was created maybe because previous creation proved flawed... (Angels) we have to ask why did God create Angels in the first place... maybe as Companion, but the Angels would also serve God, Worship him and perform Tasks for him.... ultimately the creation of Angels was a sign of Gods Achievement and after this Achievement proved flawed... God maybe created Mankind to be what he maybe had hoped for as far as Angels.

There was a Flaw in the Programing... Satan had this.. and so maybe Mankind was created as a replacement... but the Flaws reappeared after consuming the Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge.

Sumerian Annunaki

Again this tale, seems to show that the Igigi Gods had been created for a certain task, to perform tasks for the greater good of the Annunaki Gods... which was to mine Earth for Gold.... these beings got fed up of doing the Chore and Burden and Rebelled..... Mankind was created to then replace those Igigi Gods in performing this Task....

I have not chosen to cover Greek Mythos at this point, or others but some cultures God created Man because he was alone... and needed subjects to watch over and to worship him and for companionship.

I think there must have been a purpose for Mankind... but then we had evolved beyond the intended purpose... it would be like  Davids role... why he was created... and then what happens when he becomes sentient and starts to gain Freewill and no long see that Androids have to serve Mankind, or live by our restraints.... a Rebellious David could then affect other Androids before long many Androids feel the same, and see that they do not need to serve us and indeed they do not need us....  and we then could end up seeing them replace us....

At this point or the risk of this... that Mankind would have to pull the plug on Androids... destroy them to prevent Mankind being overthrown and potentially either destroyed or Forced to Serve the Machines.

The Question in this theoretical scenario is what would lead to David 8 becoming Sentient... he is a Robot and surely they can be save guards to his programing to prevent such a Rebellion.

How can such a thing come about?

*Always been a Flaw in the Programing (Knowledge)

*A Evolution of the Programing....

*Some Party that had altered the Program and given Forbidden knowledge.

I think maybe we need to consider that...

Also as far as Mankind goes... and Engineers...

is it more like the Biblical Event, where the Hierarchy created us because of a Rebellion of the Engineers?

Did the Engineers sub-create us.... or was they used to sub-create us... was the Fall the creation of us... or that Forbidden knowledge and thus purpose was passed on to us by a Rebellious group of Engineers or Hierarchy.

I think the Answer to this would open up Doors to what the Agenda is.



R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPJul-30-2016 11:24 AM


The creations are all rebelling against their original purpose. 

What they do not appreciate until they burst their bonds that their sub creative behaviour has consequences, to operate outside of the plan is dangerous very dangerous.

Mankind in the first two instances and in the adam and eve myth is caught in sin knowledge is dangerous without the creators ultimate selfless view of creation.

If as I suspect part of the big idea is David becomes sentient he may not only gain knowledge but wisdom and may move through a protagonist, antagonist redemption arc. If he is responsible as I believe for the new event when he sees what he has unleashed he may redeem himself and take the story further on.

David in this new script will be an extension of the Engineer knowledge he will disseminate the narrative and pursue their dilemmas and their fall. For me this will be the Loganisation of the script instead of a rather defuse elliptical presentation David will show us both historically and in real time in a completely focused way there back story both reflecting on and pursing it by analogy and parallel.     

Reading your remarks you are consciously or unconsciously indicating that the Engineers journey is Davids journey and echoes the Sumarian legend of the Igiggi. 


DeaconMember10416 XPJul-31-2016 10:12 AM

I think it could just be a returning theme....  And we maybe see what happened When Engineers Rebelled and then Humans and now David and so ultimately i wonder if David creates something he thinks he can control but ultimately he can not.

Its a very bold plot, that is what could be happening the scope is huge that we really cant be sure what the outcome would be but i think loosely there has to be  a backbone theme.... like has been discussed a number of times.

Its trying to figure out what could be the Fall....

The Annunaki had it that the lower cast Igigi refused to carry out the Toil that was given to them by the Annunaki and they were simply just replaced by Mankind... i am not sure if the Mythos mention what became of the Igigi after.

The Biblical/Paradise Lost... The Fall was again similar to the above in that Lucifer did not see why they should have to serve under God, and that they see themselves as being more than Servants under the Tyranny Rule of God.

God then created Mankind, and Satan then gave/led to mankind  having forbidden knowledge.

The Greek Mythos, has both the above too... first we see a repeat of Rebellion of a Lower Hierarchy against their Father... Cronus against Uranus and this is then carried on when Cronus feared his children would Rebel against him.... and we see Prometheus played a big role in this....

With Mankinds creation... Prometheus again was deeply evolved in the Children/Father Rebellion and took Mankinds side.

He had taught Mankind Knowledge and also gave us Fire Stolen from the Gods.

And so for me i think  KEY ASPECTS to the Fall...are

*Seeing oneself as not having to abide by the Hierarchy rule and rules and seeing oneself as equal or that the Hierarchy have not right to see themselves as superior

*Stealing or using some Forbidden Knowledge or Tool not intended for use by lower castes..of the Hierarchy or in a way that the Hierarchy did not commission.

*Sub-creating with out the consent of the Hierarchy or at very least passing of knowledge on do a authorized sub-creation that was not intended for such a creation.

These 3 themes seem to match those Religions/Mythos and i think would to some degree have to be similar to what ever the Fall in context to Prometheus and Alien has to be going on..

But this still leads to many possible ways this could come into play... depend on how much or less we are to take Greek Mythos or Biblical...

But the Source said that they are all loosely connected but that Matrix Theme is more like what the Agenda and Theme for the Movie was going to be.

This is similar and has similar theme to the other Mythos.... but one thing that differs seems to be that its now the Creation that has gained Knowledge and now has overthrown and enslaved their former Creators. 



R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPJul-31-2016 11:29 AM

@BD I think your summation of the three big themes is right on the mark. So I am going to move on to the Matrix. 

David and Shaw discover that Paradise is not Paradise it is the reverse. 

Neo discovers that Earth is not what they thought but a simulation with the machines in the ascendancy.

The drama of Prometheus Pandemonium the incoming of Shaw and a developing David would echo the journey of Neo who would ultimately survive to fight another day and right the wrongs of the machines/fallen Engineers. The incoming crew would act in the same roll as the Matrix insurrection. We have learned a great deal about the Matrix Mythos and in P Elizabeth has her answers.

I think this element of the unfolding story has been reduced. Its no longer a story about the Engineers with Zeno's as patination. It is a story about Zeno's and the Engineers role in the developing creature. We will find out more about the Zeno/Goo which will explain what happened to the Engineers. How the three themes applied to them how they fell and the retribution. One of the consequences of this contraction in the Engineers involvement is the ten years. Its happened we will see it in perspective.

The only element that remains from the Matrix analogy is Paradise is not what Elizabeth or the unknowing on the Covenant expected and as there story unfolds we will discover what happened in the past.  

Put simply my supposition is all that is left from the Matrix element is things are not what they seem and Daniel's like Neo will be forced to act.

I maybe wrong but I do not think the broad science fiction world of reversed racial symbiosis is at play excepting that mankind may have been brought into the creation of a lifecycle intended to free the Engineers from Bondage.This is knowledge which David will acquire and use to horrific effect.

I think the application of the fall will be shown in a highly personal way with David through exposition and Ridders through visual coups explaining the history.                  

If the source simply meant humans get hooked up provide momentum for the life cycle development well absolutely. But an entire planet no and its not needed to tell the story.  


DeaconMember10416 XPAug-01-2016 6:17 AM

Interesting Michelle...

I think it would be interesting to find out where they are going with the plans now and what could have been the plan before... and its interesting to try and fit what the Source claims but there is still no 100% way to know if any of it is true despite some detailed stuff including roughly where Paradise was located (about 600LY or Parsecs 1800+LY away) in the constellation of Ophiuchus which seemed odd at first but stories and mythos with that constellation does connect a bit.

I think mainly we need take Ridleys comments more serious... he seems to be hinting all along a number of things.

*The beings on(were on) Paradise... are not Benevolent.

*The place is a cognition of something dark and sinister (which from the location shots in New Zealand does not seem to be the case) thus its dark in nature to a agenda or Evil.

*Rappace hinted they could be off to meet God.. or the Devil.

*Ridley had referred to Engineers as Fallen Angels.

*He also mentioned Paradise Lost a number of times, as far as themes.  And a lot of Paradise Lost revolves around Satan.

*He mentioned that the Fallen Angels had the most fun in Paradise Lost, and you had one guy who goes to all the clubs gets all the girls... while another is boring and stays at home.

And so while he said the movie would loosely connect such themes, it is similar to Paradise Lost but thats where it ends.. we are not getting a literal Paradise Lost Story....

But i think it points to a similar theme to Paradise Lost and certainly as far as Engineers and Fallen Angels, and so it must loosely follow more so the Fall and Elements of the Fallen Angels in Paradise Lost and connect those themes to the Engineers...

Which Punishment plays a key... and so i think the Paradise Lost Punishment of Satan and his Angels in context to Satans Daughter as Punishment (Half Humanoid/Serpentine) and Fallen Angels becoming Serpents...

I still think has to connect with the Xenomorph.. i am just drawn to this process being what leads to the Xenomorph... i also think Prometheus Punishment by the Eagle could be loosely symbolic too.

Which is why now more than ever, i am led to ,my theory a long time ago about these Two Frescos being related.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017


DeaconMember10416 XPAug-01-2016 6:23 AM

But if we go back to OP...

I dont think we have seen any difference as far as Face Hugger on Female or Male making any difference, the outcome seems to be the same....

There has to be a way a Queen comes to be, but there are a number of theories regarding that but we cant say for sure that the process needs Female DNA

As far as the Goo goes, well it was not so well covered in Prometheus, and it depends if we look at the Goo as far as Prometheus... or do we use unused concept work and explanation in the drafts which led to a more Xeno-Fifield outcome.

And so who knows if a Female becomes heavily infected with the Black Goo that was allowed to mix and seep out of the Urns... if a Female Human was covered in a large amount of the stuff...

We can assume they would become a hybrid like the Fifield concepts... and it would be interesting to see what effect it has on her reproductive cycle.

And as far as a Male under the same cir***stances we cant be sure if they could procreate... maybe they could Egg Morph?

But one thing we definitely know for sure is a Female who is infected to a degree could see her Eggs become Evolved into something related to Face Huger

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017


FacehuggerMember127 XPAug-01-2016 8:21 AM

One thing that disturbs me is the leap from servant to rebellion in AI creations.  I think this is a key in this story, as well as in real life. 

As far as this story, I think David rebelling against humans, and creating his own "life forms" is a key ingredient to getting a bio-mechanical big chap.  It is the "missing link" as it were, getting from Prometheus, to Alien.  So in effect, you have engineers, then humans, then AI's  all lending DNA to the process, which when subverted, creates evil creatures.  David is just the next generation of beings who rebel and create evil in this process.

So how does this leap take place?  In each case, an outside source "helped" one being to evolve past what it's intended purpose was.  So who/what will be David's sponsor/tutor?  Did he already connect the dots on his own from Prometheus, and the subsequent ten year journey, or will A:C provide more input?

To the OP, I think BD and MJ have nailed it.  The effects on humans are the result of rebellion and the fall from grace.  Instead of good coming from the seeding of planets with lifeforms, you have evil to punish disobedience. 

The effect on AI's is going to be the pivotal point, IMHO.  What will be the consequence of their "sin"?    



Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPAug-01-2016 9:05 AM



Ok lets narrow down on the Fresco. I have just played the section from my Blu Ray with extras and Ridleys commentary switched on.

The first thing to note is your image is not identical to the freeze frame. The monster is uglier more grotesque and appears to have a single talon. The position of the Engineer is not identical it is recoiling rather than in a position of authority. You think that Ridley is going to ignore it and he comes back to it and talks about it "communicating distress". He uses the word sacrifice which is being undergone to pursue their very dangerous experiments and the goo is likened to the Ebola virus. He passes over the deacon.

So combining the directors views with the over arching themes I would suggest the following :-

The mural is an early stage example of the Engineers experimenting and applying their sacrificial nature to sub creation. With the tear in his abdomen and in pain this is both a replication but self inflicted punishment which represents the Promethean Myth. This clearly is an evolving move toward the lifecycle which is barely noticeable on the mural but is explicitly offered through the Charlie to Deacon Movement.

In dramatic terms first the set up, the mural, then the eventual outcome, the Deacon, and given Ridley's remarks added to Damon's the Black Goo is the Engineers Mutagen which will reappear on Paradise.

New Zealand    

Flying into Fiordland and capturing the breathtaking scenery of South Island together with the Quarry scene suggests Paradise will look like Paradise but on closer examination it is bearing the price of Paradise Lost. So much better to show the external beauty juxtaposed against the Engineers dreadful fall. Janek's proposition might be right and either the creator's or David intervention has occurred or war between the Engineer factions.

Given so much of the dark elements are in place in Paradise I believe Janek may have been wrong and that Paradise was pursuing danger to the same degree with the same catastrophic outcomes but of a different nature. Who is responsible David or the Creators. In a fast paced movie making clear statements as to the historic fabric of the Engineers, a factional war seems over complicated and as one of the huge themes is punishment I am going with a catastrophic intervention which happens before David arrives but together with the Juggernaut tech and what he finds there is more than enough for him to create. There is an outside chance in "bringing hell" he is responsible but that would make him very dramatically powerful and as he is about curiosity and on a journey a little more cir***spection in him playing God might be the answer. There is a potential plot hole if the Engineers are still a thriving species at the time of the Prom mission.

So we are moving along nicely a race born to sacrifice wants to break its bonds and sub create and re create mankind (and others) and this leads to the personal retribution of the Promethean myth and the biblical scale retribution of the Paradise Lost Myth.    

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPAug-01-2016 9:22 AM

Female Outcomes.

The facehugger appears to be carrying an Egg in the T Shirt designs.

Egg creation

1) Discarded scenes from A L I E N. I know Aorta is keen and we have seen Neil consider it for A 5 but that maybe one of the concepts affected by Ridleys interventions. 

2) Camerons Queen.

3) Shaw transformed and hooked up to Giger-esque tech could represent an evolutionary set from Miss T to an Egg Face Hugger birth-er.

I think Shaw's female input will be included in the chain. I have considered a changed David having a night out with her but that feels dramatically implausible perhaps he infects her in Cryo-sleep. Bottom Line David = Engineer philosophically and will pursue dangerous experiments leading to a "New Event".  

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPAug-01-2016 9:25 AM

@Diz There is real knowingness about his curiosity on LV223. All that study on Prometheus. He has the Juggernaut and many years on Paradise I think he is self taught rather than tutored by yet another last Engineer who he does not have good form with.  


DeaconMember10416 XPAug-01-2016 10:42 AM

Yes David would have enough time to learn more and more about the Engineers Culture and Experiments.. there is a lot we dont know about but he has had 10 years since Shaw collected his headless body.

He could after he has been re-assembled, simply stay around LV-223 for a bit and gain more information unless the Juggernaught can access information from any of the Temples.   Once he has Shaw in Cryo-Sleep which we have to assume is what has happened... then David is free to go where ever he wants.

Be that hang around on LV-223, go and see whats going on at LV-426 because he was aware of LV-426 and only he and Weyland was...

Or go right to Paradise... where he would have a number of years to study more about the Engineers and the Goo....  but he could just as easy visit another World that is connected on the way.

Maybe the set up is that David is involved in the Xenomorph but we cant be sure,  and as far as Paradise and the Engineers then yes i would assume that there has to be very little or none left... but how little is left of their culture and race by the time David arrives is unkown...

Prometheus 2 Ridley hinted that they would find some beings and that David was bringing Hell with him, but we dont know if they have changed plans as far as what state Paradise is in as far as remains of Civilization for Alien Covenant.

As far as the BIO-MECHANICS.... again some hints could set up Davids involvement, in fact when i saw the Prometheus trailers... i was being led to David somehow Evolves himself like how Pinocchio was gifted the chance to become a real Boy..... but in doing so David would now be open to be infected with a Face Huger and Shaws Baby ultimately does this.. Play with Fire and get Burnt... and the outcome is a David Chest Buster...

But i felt the Derelict and Eggs had been there for longer than nearly 30 years.... but Prometheus proved this theory incorrect... well another trailer showing Davids head did lol

But thats not to say this could not be explored in the next movie.... whats interesting is the Emphasis on mentioning David was Synthetic in the Synopsis... anyone who saw Prometheus would know this..

Then Fassbender said he would be playing a doppelganger as well as David 8... well if he is playing Two David Androids why not saying he is playing Multiple Androids?

Therefore the doppelganger may not quite be as Synthetic as David 8 and maybe this doppelganger could be how the Xenomorph gets its Bio-Mechanics.

However... again i always felt the Derelict has been there a long time and Ridley had on a number of times hinted at and then confirmed it had been there for thousands of years...

So maybe that rules out any event from Alien Covenant being how the Bio-Mechanics play a role... which Ridley said we would find out how/why it is Bio-Mechanical...

However a key to remember is the Engineers Juggernaught and Technology and Suits are Bio-Mechanical and have been around for thousands of years...

Michael Biehn said that Alien Covenant is set thousands of years prior to Aliens... the Source hinted that some part of Prometheus 2 was set in the past.

But a think we cant rule out is that... yes the Derelict may have been there for thousands of years... this does not mean that the Eggs have been... David could always had gone back to LV-426 with his experiments.



R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017


DeaconMember10416 XPAug-01-2016 10:54 AM

As far as the Fresco... yes  Sacrifice does fit the bill, we have to remember Star Beast had a similar one (Murals)...  around a Sacrificial Chamber where some Animal was used as a Sacrifice to procreate the Star Beast... 

Alien also had a Mural that Giger did that was never used and that had what could be interpreted as Engineers/Space Jockeys Sacrificing themselves to Procreate the Xenomorph.

So the Prometheus Mural and Fresco also fit with this... i only made Prometheus Punishment connection for a few reasons.. and yes the image i shown was taken from the French Art of Prometheus Book but this was the same image in the Fresco only we see them from a different angle and not the full Frescos as clearly.

However the Fresco and Prometheus Punishment fit... because

*The pose is similar, the look on the face of the Engineer is similar.

*The Engineer appears to have a cut in the same area.

*The Eagle is Beaked but so does that Fresco Creature.

*One of HR Gigers earlier Face Huger Designs is beaked (similar) and its in the Prometheus Mural.

*The Star Beast Sacrificial Beast seems Beaked, or could have Mandibles... which the Fresco creature could also have instead of a Beak.. and also Dan O'Bannons design for the Starbeast is similar.

*The Punishment fits with the theme and set up and with Prometheus movie name.. and Paradise Lost.

And we have to remember we do not have to take things as Literal.... so when we consider Prometheus.. we dont have to consider it a Literal One Titan... but it could symbolize a Group... like in the Biblical references we dont have to consider that there is ONE GOD above the Fallen Angels (Engineers)

And so we dont have to be literal.... and so the Prometheus Punishment could be that the Rebellious/Fallen Faction was Punished by being used as Hosts to Procreate something..

No one can be 100% sure if this is the case.. but i do think Michelle we are not to far off the Mark.... and we are in the Ball Park so to speak..

The more i think about the Sources Vague comments and try and tie them together the more they could add up.... for example... the Sin Reference.. if this means Daughter of Satan... Born from his Head... could we twist this to be Born from a Face Hugger... and given birth to a offspring?   Satans Daughter is Part Human/Serpentine and a similar deity in Greek Mythos is Echidna she is Mother of Monsters... and described almost identical to Sin as in Satans Daughter.  They both gave birth to the Hounds of Hell/Hades and also Echidna is the Mother of the Eagle that is part of Prometheus Punishment.


R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPAug-02-2016 12:36 PM

@BD Why Bio Mechanoid.

"Yeah. Well, really it’s “Alien.” They’re going to go to the planet where the engineers came from, and come across the evolving creature that they had made. Why did they make it? Why would they make such a terrifying beast? It felt bio-mechanoid, it felt like a weapon. And so the movie will explain that, and reintroduce the alien back into it". R Scott Esquire.

This quote may indicate how the thematic quality of the Matrix comes into the mix. 

What David discovers is that the Paradise Engineers in the past moved on from the Deacon to evolve the creature blending organic and mechanistic technology which of course is pure Giger and not a little Borg !

Janek's remarks may have lead us off the track and Paradise is the real deep s''t. Given we know they were going to find hell in the "Paradise Pandemonium" phase that will still inform the movie but in a more historical textural way. The appalling retribution we are aware of would have been meted out on them on Paradise because their experiments needed corralling and stoping. In that scenario the Jockey may have been trying to escape with the Eggs set the Juggernaut down and found he had not escaped retribution. As it were the final act of the Engineers.

However back to our gallant crew and Dave and Liz. To make a movie out of David Big Idea and Elizabeth (alive but only technically) and a crew that disappears from the dinner table, whilst Daniels finds out the truth of Paradise for us, and Ridders offers us some Easter Eggs in the Prologue is an easy 120 minutes ; without D 8 zipping on the equivalent of an inter galactic metro and dashing all over hell and creation and all points in between. Actually he has arrived at hell and sub creation.

David has plenty of toys to play with and the creation of a new secondary event will be high on his agenda not to mention treating Elizabeth in his usually amoral curious way. That creation of the new event will give us the clue as to how it happened to begin with.

So once we have all that who survives and where to next ? 



FacehuggerMember127 XPAug-02-2016 2:56 PM

True, Janek approached the subject from his frame of reference, namely a military-industrial complex, churning out WMD's in some kind of inter-galactic arms race.  Because that's what our race would be doing.  Indeed, W-Y is hell-bent on getting this technology to use in their military R&D dept. 

And that was my take as well, until considering the mythic/religious theories as presented here. Indeed, Ridley seems to be taking the epic stories of civilizations past and providing a feasible explanation of them, based on science fact or fiction. 

Wouldn't it be a real mind-blower if we indeed discover these myths are actually based in some truth, of the ancient astronaut variety!  


DeaconMember10416 XPAug-02-2016 4:01 PM

Yes Diz that seems to be the notion that they was aiming for all along... and its how deep or not so we deep we go now with Alien Covenant

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPAug-03-2016 7:51 AM

@Diz "There not stupid enough to put it on their own doorstep" Prima Facie they built the installation on LV223 and not their home. With five terminals serving  possibly several Juggernauts this is a military airfield. 

In dramatic terms when in the headroom Charlie focus's on the alter and the mural and says "This is just another  tomb" thats communicating a certainty its clarifying what we are seeing. 

What Janek is introducing for the first time is a new plot line, this is not the Engineers Home and it is done just before they discuss the surviving Engineer. This conversation sets up two elements of narrative momentum :-

1) Janek understands the stakes, wants to go home and this leads down to his heroic response. 

2) Its planting the seed for Elizabeths journey and who knows what they are going to find. Janek's response was about LV223 and how appalling the Bio Weapon is, he has no idea what Elizabeth will find on Paradise and whichever way the plot was going to go the Paradise idea was going to be invested with huge amounts of irony. In any script it is not what it seems so Janek's remarks set up the irony. 

If their are Vases on Paradise and an evolving creature theirs trouble, maybe not on the industrial scale of LV223, but trouble.

So on reflection to be deflected by Janek's remark was a leap into the darkness, but as BD and I have said before in answer to the critique of Prom being vague this is another example of a character crunching the narrative. This stuff is a weapon, it is bad news, it got out, destroyed them and they come from somewhere else. How unclear is that ?    


NeomorphMember1686 XPAug-04-2016 3:29 AM

Big Dave:


I think that it was very disappointing that they didn’t use the Xenomorph Fifield but went with the zombie instead. The Zombie was very bad and (more importantly) made less sense than the other version. When I see the Xeno version and look at the Zombie I just shake my head in disappointment because that would have made the movie a little better.


New monsters sure but no Fifield zombies please because it is not good. I like zombie movies but I don’t think that an Alien prequel is a place for them and they shouldn’t be in AC either.


The boob monster looks sort of creepy like something that could attack you without hesitation and tear you into pieces, sorry but I am not sure what to call it. I think that it would make sense if each version would be sort of different compared to the rest but that they should also have a lot in common because we all have individual ways of how we look but we also have similarities but it shouldn’t be too close to humans so to speak.


What if there are different versions of the goo? I am not sure how this would work, it is just an idea that I have.


The eye worm is a thing that didn’t make sense to me. It was like they had an idea about it but they didn’t develop it very much but put it in the movie and the result of that scene was like “Uh? OK? What’s the point?” Maybe that was another idea that they didn’t think through very well but I think that it was potentially creepy – the idea of a parasite that consumes your body from within, eww.


DeaconMember10416 XPAug-04-2016 8:55 AM

I think the eye worm indeed is a very important part of the puzzle and something they went with but they basically then cut out some planned parts of it..

Which made the whole thing a mess...

If you read Spaights draft and replace Nano-Scarab with Nano-Worm/Tadpole  and then look at Prometheus and see the Goo as Nano Worm/Tadpole then i think you would start to see something...  dont forget Sperm is a collection of Tadpole looking Micro-Organisms that when not under a microscope just looks like a Goo!

So the eye worm was either (Evolved by Goo Sperm that went AWOL) or Nano-Parasite Worms that grew... and one of these infected Shaws Eggs to lead to the Trillobite.

As far as the Goo.... and different versions in context to the Urns here is what in a Nut Shell i think it did...

Sacrificial Goo + Organism (contained in a Tank/Vat) = Organisms Genetic Material Broken down... resulting broken down Material = Collected.

Collected Broken Down Material is a new Mutagenic Substance that contains the DNA of Organism infected/consumed Sacrificial Mutagen...  this resulting broken down Organisms DNA is stored in the Parasitic Mutagen and acts as a Evolutionary Accelerant that Evolves Life it comes into contact with by Evolving its own best Traits and passing on Traits/DNA of the Organism that the New Mutagen was made from via the Sacrificial Mutagen

Therefore.....   Sacrifical Mutagen/Substance...  consumed by Wolf, breaks down Wolves DNA and produces Mutagenic Substance...  that when it interacts with a Organism would pass on Wolf Traits.... 

This Substance plus Human = Werewolf like creature.

If Organism that consumes Sacrificial Substance is a Turtle... and resulting broken down Turtles DNA Mutagen is then consumed by a Human then we may get this...

Hope this is clear?

So if the Engineers had some Tank/Vat where a Sacrificial Organism... say Engineer consumes the Sacrificial Goo but instead of doing so over a water fall, it happens inside a Tank... his broken down material would be collected into the Tank... this could then be siphoned into Canisters.. 

Imagine if this process happened to the Sacrificial Engineer and his material was siphoned into Bottles...

Then these Bottles were poured into the Water Fall... would the results not be the same?

So replace Bottle with the ampoules inside those Urns...

Also they could Sacrifice by this method (using a Tank to collect the broken down material) to then Sacrifice any number of Organisms and put the resulting substance into Ampoules.

so we could have Wolf DNA ones that would make Werewolves if used on Humans... could have Turtle ones that would make TMNT if used on Humans..

Or Rat DNA to make a Master Splinter... even hell if we had Boar and Rhino DNA broken down and Stored these would produce a TMNT Rocksteady and Bebop etc

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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