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OvomorphMember39 XPMay-02-2016 5:55 AM

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91 Responses to Lorem ipsum vel quis ad malesuada ipsum porttitor magna leo

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-16-2016 8:48 AM

@Michelle 

Regarding the Matrix theme, and connected themes, its hard to figure precicly what that could be but there are a number of Elements that connect and a lot have to do with Creators being overthrown and replaced by their Creations. Also as maybe their creations had evolved, or they (creators) had evolved them to a level that they (creators) never expected or the effects in hindsight and a lot of this could also be to do with Forbidden Knowledge and once that knowledge has been let out of the bag, then there is no going back.

A Matrix Example of this could be the Blue/Red Pill, Neo always felt something was not right, but it was only once he was given the option of the Red/Blue pill the Red Pill gave him Knowledge/Truth about what is really going on.. a Forbidden Knowledge/Truth as far as the Agenda of the Sentient Machines that Enslaved Mankind... They (Machines) did not want Mankind to have this Knowledge and Truth about the Matrix.

A Comparison could be made with the Apple from the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden, that opened up and freed up Adam and Eve to the Knowledge of Good and Evil which was Forbidden by God.

The Prometheus Myth connects also as Prometheus and the Fire, does not have to mean Literal Fire it can mean that but also hidden Knowledge as Prometheus taught Mankind, Arts, Metal Work, and all sorts of other Knowledge that the Gods did not want Mankind to possess..

If we look at the Bible some of the Fallen Angels and Satan taught Mankind the same things, including also Women to dress provocative ways and use makeup and perfumes etc.

We can maybe connect Prometheus to Satan, to Enki and to Morpheus in that way.

When we try and look at many connections between all of them, then some familiar things to fit in..

I think by the Matrix they meant the Franchise maybe and not just the first movie, and so maybe this could mean that there was a point the Gods/Machines had a change of Mind and wanted to redeem themselves or refrain.....

But then a lone Member of the Matrix wanted to be as God all for himself (Agent Smith) and we can see similar things in Greek, Sumerian and Biblical connections especially with Paradise Lost.

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-16-2016 9:02 AM

"What we do not know is how much of the big picture back story has survived (your remarks about Mankind being a 4th 5th generation model)."

I think this may connect to how we have the Myths about Atlantis and thus a Era of Mankind before our own and also the Greek Mythos of Ages of Man and when we go though other Religions we have similar themes like First there was Man who could not procreate but lived very long lives and never aged.. (we can kind of look at the Engineers as fitting with this).

There are a number of ways this can fit in, if we take it from the Movie point of view and the Spaights draft, and Ridleys Comments... they all seem to show us the Engineers created us and evolved us again, and again both genetically but also technological and knowledgeably, maybe in the Pursuit of Perfection like Weyland did with David 1 to David 8

Spaights draft there was 8 kinds of Xeno that was planned as far as what the Engineers were working on and Ridley even said the Derelict could have had 8 different kinds of Cargo.

Prometheus Mural showed the Deacon in high regard and also Two kinds of Face Huger, maybe Easter Eggs as they are Two of the unused Giger Concepts from Alien...

But maybe they can all be connected to show us these Engineers are Genetic Gardeners and they create a number of things and then further evolve them in the Pursuit of Perfection.

But this came at a risk... they went to far and created the Horrific Xenomorph but also Mankind who would advanced to a level without the Engineers help that they thought maybe Mankind would not..

We would then also create Life in our Image with David who is so advanced he could use Engineer Technology.

Its kind of the same theme we see in Matrix as Mankind created the Machines to carry out tasks that we no longer had to do so... but these Machines where too Evolved, they gained knowledge and saw themselves as superior to Mankind and decided to replace us (Well Enslave us) after a War between Mankind and the Machines.

Terminator follows similar theme, Prometheus looks like doing the same. Its not hard to imagine a future where David 8 comes back and has knowledge of the Gods (Engineers) and he sees himself as superior and he passes his Knowledge/Free will onto the other Davids and then they go and create more Davids and eventually decide to replace Mankind...

We see seeds of this in David, and something like this could happen.... but then we could see this going further as far as David creates something or a new generation of Androids that then see themselves as superior to David... and so the cycle starts again.

To me this Theme, of Father/Son King/Prince and Creator/Creation and Rebellion is something that i feel Prometheus was using as its backbone.

Sumerians had it that Mankind was created to replace the Igigi who had been created before but who rebelled and so was replaced with Mankind.

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-16-2016 9:17 AM

"I don’t think that they would need to paint it like a new version of Matrix even though they could borrow bits from it. No copy thanks."

Yes i dont think its a copy at all but just shared theme, which my previous post was about, we wont be seeing  Mankind kept in Cryo-sleep Dream while the real world is a Horror... i hope not... but i think when the source said Matrix they did not mean Literally the same Movie, they also said the Draft had Blade Runner look and feel to it as far as the look, but also themes in Blade Runner are similar... i think they meant either in how the Engineers are or David or both as far as the Replicants.

Your point Thoughts_Dreams about Prometheus and how the Xeno was being put to the back to explore Engineers is pretty much what Fox may have felt more general fanbase felt too and so they are going back to a more Xeno based movie.

The idea seemed to me that Spaights tried to connect that the Space Jockey was the Engineers as our creators and creators of many things, they was who we thought was Gods, and the Xeno was one more creation for a sinister purpose.

Seemed Fox then felt the back story for the Space Jockey/Engineer was a good one, as we have seen the Xeno over and over and if the Xenomorph is a creation only for the use as a Bio-Weapon within the context of the Franchise then the only thing we have missing was "when/how/where/why" was this Bio-Weapon Made... they changed the Draft to concentrate on the Engineers more.. and covered less of the Xeno but those Questions "when/how/where/why" where answered in a vague manor

When 2000 years or so ago, but it was not set in stone.

How Little is known, but it could hint at the Black Goo being used maybe on something else?

Where LV-223 for the most Part

Why This was the ambiguous part, maybe because we had been a failed experiment a creation that did not end up the way they intended, we proved rebellious?

The Franchise set up to then explore the Engineers more, and hoped that those clues was enough.... but it never went down well in General and Fans seemed to want a more Spoon Fed Answers and to see Xenos... and i think they are going that route with Alien Prequels now.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-16-2016 9:24 AM

"So he is trying to destroy the Engineers to become the king of everything? That could be an interesting idea and could be described in many ways."

Yes it could be that way..... David has seen that the Creators of Mankind are only superior in a few ways and that was Advanced Technology, Size and Strength and a way to maybe become more closer to Eternal Life but not Immortal.

David is the same as the Engineers in that respect, he would live for a very long time, provided the Engineer did not rip his head off....  Blow a David 8 up and he would be destroyed.... look after him and he could live for hundreds, thousands of years.

So David has now got Information about the Engineers, he knows they are not Gods, they are Mortal but they possess knowledge and technology that makes Mankind Primitive...  But David could learn and use the Engineers Knowledge/Tech he could learn it fast.

Thus the only difference is the Engineers are just Larger and Stronger than David, but David would have some advantages and so he would see himself as superior to them as well as us..

And he is intrigued to find out who is at the top of the Hierarchy If they are also Mortal.. or if they are Machine... if David can possess their knowledge and Technology and if there is not much left of there culture..

Then David could be the God now.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-16-2016 9:48 AM

@CarynParnall and Michelle some interesting comments about the Covenant connection and how far will this fit we dont know but it has to play a connection and i think it may apply in more than one way.

As far as David sending the coordinates so the Covenant can find Paradise a lot depends on his Agenda... will he want to send back all the information to Earth so that the company can reap the rewards?

I doubt it, David did want his Parents Dead, and now that Weyland is dead he is free. David also seemed to be a bit upset how Humans treated him, when he feels he is superior...

I think David would not want to save Mankind, but Enslave it....  so i think he may have a Trap Set?

Maybe he finds the Engineers who are not happy at all, maybe they now realize that Mankind can reach LV-223 and create Androids who can use the Engineer Tech.... maybe this is what Shaw and David find...

Maybe David makes a Covenant with the Engineers or who ever beings they found... (which we wont see in the movie) the aftermath we have David who has made a Covenant with Shaw and broken it to make one with the Engineers Hierarchy.

Maybe The Xeno proved costly to them and so David has said if they spare him and REPAIR him to make him Better (Pinocchio's wish) then David could then carry out the Mission to destroy Mankind on their behalf?

But Ultimately David breaks that Covenant too.

A interesting thing is Ridley said something is Evolving on that World, something the Engineers Made, and we find out why and what was the purpose for that Evil Biology.

to me this means one of TWO THINGS and because we will see all Stages of the Xenomorph.. or similar Egg, FaceHugger Chest Buster and Big Guy here is what we are Logically left with.

1) Some mishap had occured on Paradise relating to the Xeno or related Organism, either it was made on Paradise then sent to punish those rebellious Engineers on LV-223 but backfired... or those Rebellious Engineers Re-engineered after it failed to get to LV-223 and Rebel Faction Re-engineered it and sent it to Paradise.   Or it was created on LV-223 in act to use against the Engineers on Paradise and Earth?

Who knows... but my point is that something related to the Xenomorph or related Evil Biology had caused maybe a lot of destruction on Paradise and what was left over is ALIEN EGGS or the result of a Biological Mishap or Attack, Evolved to leave Alien Eggs.

2) David arrives on Paradise at some point years before Covenant and his actions lead to the creation of something with the Engineers Evil Biology that Evolved into ALIEN EGGS.

What i mean is the Eggs that will be found, must have taken time to Evolve or the Process that leads to the Method/Organism that produces the Eggs takes time..

This Event is either something from thousands of years ago, related to LV-223 especially if there was a War of Factions (Remember Aliens Colonial Marines, Developers sat down with Fox to discus the Franchise and Space Jockey, and so they must have been told that yes some War had happened and Rebellion.. thats why the Space Jockey Easter Egg Hologram shows a Derelict/Jugernaught craft having a battle with the Tear Drop/Sacrificial Drop ship craft).  So maybe the Eggs are from that period.

Or some event after David arrives at Paradise but prior to the Covenant... either way i think David discovers it and he may indeed send a message as a Trap?

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-17-2016 5:29 AM

@BigDave -  From what Ridley has divulged over the years, it seems like the Engineers did engage in conflict with another faction or group of gods in the past (as the Colonial Marines easter egg shows).   

It's risky taking the potential clues from the games and books into consideration, although Ridley does appear to confirm the idea that there were differences between groups.  Whoever first started utilizing the creature as a weapon likely held a malicious intent to Destroy the other group.  Ridley's words on the subject suggest that the Alien was used for evil purposes by a group of evil Gods. Whichever God designed the bioweapon probably did so for destructive purposes.  Then there's the mysterious creature kneeling before the Engineer in the artwork... Don't even get me started on them.

It's possible that Ridley is hinting that the creature evolves over time and was not always this destructive by nature;  but it's impossible to tell if the eggs come before the chicken at this point...  I suspect that we'll see the chicken and egg debate clarified during the parts of the story that are set 2000 years in the past.

David is seemingly alone on the planet, and by this point he could know the layout of the engineer ruins like the back of his hand.  He's sort of like that kid from Home Alone in that way:  he had a few opportunities to set up traps in the engineer city. Home Alone is a holiday classic; it's also a film that Danny McBride's character might happen to enjoy... There's something that the company wishes to steal from David.  Daniels doesn't know about this yet, though.  This holiday season, the android is expecting Company to show up.

It takes David longer than expected to free himself before imposing his will over Shaw's mind and body.  The chess battle against Shaw is tougher to win than David predicted it would be.  He uses a few tricks, such as a "poor choice of words," to go back on his word after promising not to harm her.  From Shaw's perspective, the android is a liar who breaks the covenant she makes with it; it's a real boy now, just like Pinocchio.  David uses the vague and ambiguous wording of his verbal contracts to get away with going against his word.  He wasn't speaking the complete truth.  He said that "it wasn't the air," because the androids are programmed to be as honest as possible.  At the same time, David was gaining a certain degree of free choice over how he worded and interpreted it.  Which prevents Shaw from realizing the android's deeper meanings.  She only realizes what it was really saying once it's too late...

The early androids were always a bit twitchy.  The creator of the Bishop android installed behavioral inhibitors that make it impossible for Bishop to indirectly harm a human being.  The incidents that occur with the David androids could never happen with him.  Bishop was designed in such a way that he truly values human life.  He would be considered to be one of the "good" androids in the universe...  Mostly because he was the only one that Ripley could trust.  Bishop's human creator may play a role in the events of Alien 5...

Ash admired the creature for its purity because he found it to be unclouded by delusions of morality.  The creature itself would be free of morality, neither good nor evil, like the David 8.  Ash couldn't lie to the Nostromo crew about their chances, but he did have some sympathy for them. The creature is a "perfect organism," so Ash takes its side over the humans:  Ash sympathized more with the Alien than he did with us when he smiled at Ripley. 

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-17-2016 9:15 AM

While i dont think Androids can lie, i think they can be protected by a Prime Directive and Order and if the Truth would break this Prime Directive the Androids would have to do what ever they can to steer around the Truth.

This is why when they was looking at the SOS/Warning from the Derelict Ash did not mention what it is, but we have to remember the crew did not directly point a question to him because they assumed he would not know and would be just as in the dark as they was as he was Human... or so they thought.

"Then there's the mysterious creature kneeling before the Engineer in the artwork... Don't even get me started on them."

LOL me either.... this is the ENIGMA the Missing Link and something i hopped we would find out about in future movies....

I have a few theories... but one that sticks out to me in context of the Prometheus Myth is this was the Eagle Sent to Punish the Promethean Wayward Engineers.

The other image however reminded me of the Giger Photo of him holding the Egg he created... thus maybe the Enigma Creature is the Origin of the Egg?

In many ancient cultures the Eagle Dragon and Serpent can be interchangeable and connected.

The Fresco Creature also reminds me of O'Bannons idea for the Alien, it could also be like the Sacrificial Beast used by the Star Beast Ancestors and also some Fifield Concepts seemed to be evolving into something similar.

The source did say the Xeno was a Punishment and it was a Punishment that gave the Fallen Engineers freedom from Bondage and made reference to it connects to Paradise Lost and how the Fallen Angels where turned into Serpents... but not quite a literal way.  If true that would be interesting.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-17-2016 9:19 AM

As far as the Engineer War.... i think we cant rule the Games as Canon, but they did confer with Ridley and Fox about the Space Jockey and Alien so that they dont create anything that treads on the toes of the Franchise... the same was with Dark Horse.

So while its not Literal Canon... i think we can gather that Fox/Ridley confirmed to them that the Engineers were like Angels and we had a Fallen Faction at War with the other Faction.

Ridleys comments regarding Fallen Angels, does therefore imply indeed a War/Rebellion.. and these are themes we see in Greek Mythos of which Prometheus plays a massive role in most of the Rebellion Tales in Greek Mythology as far as Gods...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-18-2016 1:58 AM

The fact that Ridley and the filmmakers consulted with the makers of the new video games and comics is why I don't think we can discount them entirely.

Even the recent novel trilogy had the filmmaker's approval.  A few of the things that happen in the new comics/video games might be considered as secondary canon, but I think most of what they hint towards is relevant.  Especially how the new comics depict the accelerant.  I've taken a lot of it into consideration for my predictions.  Prometheus is said to be the start of a parallel story, so it's possible we'll be introduced to an alternate method of egg production. 

The old Dark Horse comics played around with Kings and White-Hybrid Kings for a while, but after the Big Deletion, we can't be sure if there are Kings in the new universe.  When the universe was updated, the data that the company had on Kings and the royal jelly was lost.  One of the androids may need to check and see if there are Kings and Jelly in the new universe...

Back in the 90s, comic book writer Chris Claremont was a go-between for the films and the comics.  He would meet with the studio and filmmakers to discuss what could and couldn't be done.  Claremont was one of the few comic book writers who understood that certain ideas were off-limits, while other ideas were part of how the company felt the life-cycle worked at the time.

Science-fiction writers like Philip K. Dick and Arthur C. Clarke first started writing about the machines that hijack reality many years before the Matrix was written. The virtual prison that the machines trap the humans in has been looked at in a few different ways in the past, done in Twilight Zone episodes etc.  So the Pandora's box ideas can actually be traced back to an earlier point in time.  They show up in an early version of the Alien script in which holographic virtual reality simulations of historical figures appear.  Like most of the ideas that the filmmakers are working with, the Matrix-like concepts originated around the time of the Star Beast script.

The general idea of the Matrix-like concept has been developed further and approached by writers such as Claremont and others.  Claremont had his own take on it, which potentially resulted in a few of his ideas being incorporated into other realities.  The new comics and games can be considered more real than his old comics, yet there's a strong possibility that a few of Claremont's ideas survived beyond the old universe.

One of the novels from the Titan Books trilogy contains a few possible hints about the mysterious creature from the fresco.  If the novels are to be considered "real," then the mysterious creature could actually be a separate species with its own advanced technology. The canine-looking species that one of the books talks about could even be a group made up of scholars and philosophers. If this is indeed the same species that's being described, then the thing is highly intelligent and civilized.

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-18-2016 6:31 AM

I will have to read those at sometime, it seems they are implying that the Derelict and Xenomorph Eggs come from another Alien Race and so the Engineers had stolen and re-engineered the Xenomorph and Bio-Technology to incorporate it into their own Tech. I know this is not in the Books but if they are going the route the Eggs and Derelict are not of Engineer Origin then this must be how the Engineers obtained it.

I do however think they was going for a different route with Prometheus Canon...  it would be interesting to see if this is the case however now.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-18-2016 5:15 PM

It's tough to say if the Engineers stole their tech from this Canine-like species or not.  The crew finds the ruins of an alien city, yet their statues and artwork imply that the ruins belong to this other group and not the Engineers.  The description of the ship that they find makes it clear that it's not a Juggernaut/Croissant.

The problem is that if we read between the lines of the new novels, then Ripley could be trapped in an Alien induced nightmare during Out of the Shadows.  At the end of the book, Ripley's memories are erased by Dream Visor tech and she goes back to sleep, yet there are subtle hints throughout the story that she may in fact still be dreaming.  This would relate to the virtual prison/Matrix that her mind is trapped in.

The Pandora's Box/Cube idea is like a virtual Prison that the machines wish to trap the human minds in.  The machines prefer the humans not to employ out of the box thinking.  They also want to trap the Alien's consciousness within the box alongside the humans. Then they can close the lid on Pandora's box and contain the Fire.  By dumbing down the Alien with their manipulations, the androids seek to control the Fire. The funny part would be that IQs did drop while Ripley was away. The humans and Aliens used to be smarter.

The Cube symbol of Alien 3 would secretly be related to the Pandora's box thread.  The Cube is the same as the Box in a symbolic sense.  This would partially be how the machines are able to trick Ripley's head back to life in Alien 5.  Ripley's real mind was imprisoned in a Cube by the machines, thus the clone can't possess Ripley's real consciousness, her memories, or her soul.

The prisoners in Alien 3 were unaware that their minds were trapped in a prison of another sort.  They were religious, like Call's free androids.  The whole thing would be revealed to be highly symbolic.  Ripley's Death and subsequent Resurrection becomes more figurative than literal.  In reality, she was only in a coma within a malfunctioning hypersleep chamber... Newt was sent to live with her grandparents by Bishop and Hicks.  It all happened while Ripley was asleep, dreaming. 

In the future, Yutani's Quiet Eye tech merges with the Dream Visor to allow machines to quietly monitor subconscious emotional states and record the dreams. If Ripley so chooses, the events of Alien 3 can be viewed as a lucid dream.  The company lets her review the nightmares for potential value.  They have a number of her nightmares on file; and the CGI looks fake in Alien 3, causing that story to seem less real.  It's more of a dream, or virtual simulation, than a memory.   

The Colonial Marines video game would be one of Corporal Hicks' adventures in the dreamworld.  The Marines don't know that some of their encounters with the Alien have been occurring in virtual reality training simulators.  The video game events are considered "real" in a sense.  But most of that was only training. Everything that happens after the original Alien film may be considered to be part of the dreamworld.

At a certain point, Hicks would be offered the Red Pill and woken up to the real world.  Ripley's lucid dreams were mostly the result of an unusually long hyper sleep.  Mostly.  In Sea of Tranquility and River of Pain, it's hinted that the face hugger's natural sedative and the creature itself are responsible for the strange dreams the humans experience while unconscious.  The creature has a hidden ability to interact with the human subconscious.

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1507 XPMay-19-2016 8:42 AM

@ Big Dave

Shared themes and so on:

 

A movie more connected to the Xeno (more than Prometheus was) is fine by me but they need to have an update and also they need better characters. The Engineers could be done in an interesting way. I think that the idea about exploring the Engineers is a good one it is just that they didn’t do it very well in Prometheus. Good idea – mediocre result.

 

For some reason I think that they could focus more on the Engineers than they say that they will do now so instead of having 80% monsters and 20% Engineers they could maybe have 60% monsters and 40% Engineers but that depends on how they portray the Engineers also. A well portrayed Engineer is worth more than a badly done Xeno and vice versa.

 

For some reason I hope that they make the Engineers more threatening than the Xenos because the Engineers are those that made the Xeno possible in the first place. It is like you train a dog: for a dog to get mean you must have a mean owner first, this is how I look at the creation of the Xeno. Making a movie about the Engineers could be a good thing but you must make the Space Jockeys interesting and also the human characters. Right now many persons might look at the Engineer as a guy mad for no reason and that is sad. They need to make Alien Covenant into a movie that also makes sense of the Engineers while still keeping them mysterious in a way.  Maybe I am hoping for too much? Maybe they won’t be as successful about the Engineers as I hope. 

My idea is that the Space Jockeys are the Engineers because that would make them more connected to the Xenos and also make Prometheus make more sense as far as being an Alien prequel.

 

I still think that there is a way to make it interesting and to explain the Xeno and the Space Jockey/Engineer people in a way that makes sense but they must do well with Alien Covenant or else it is probably over.

 

As far as the black goo is concerned I think that it could be used in the next movie if done right. I am not sure how they would use it but I think that there is a potential there.

 

I don’t have anything against movies sharing the same theme. Many sci-fi movies share common themes as well. The question is how they develop that theme and connect it to the human characters. 

 

David trying to destroy the Engineers and becoming the new God. This could be interesting because he could be a threat both to human beings and the Engineers. I wonder how they will do that but if it works it could be very interesting.

 

One thing that I am thinking of is if they should show where the Engineers create the Xenos and similar monsters or if they should let it be. Maybe they should let it be so people can use their imagination about how it looks there. I compare it to a factory here they make bombs or similar things, in order to make it more effective they don’t need to show how the factory works but you can make your own version of it. This is how I can imagine how they create the Xenos or maybe it is better if they let the Xenos be a product of an accident that the engineers created. I am not sure if I have made up my mind about this, I guess that it is more like I have many different possibilities about what could have happened.

 

As far as David goes, I wonder if he will learn how to create new Davids? The name David could refer to the kind of droids not to the Droid David in Prometheus. It could be that he makes his own David factory so he creates new Davids (remember that he is smart) and is trying to make them into the rulers of the world.

 

“A king has his reign and then he dies”

 

So even if David the Android (Fassbender) dies there are enough droids to try to take over the world and make it into their own image so to speak. I am not sure if this would just be on one planet or if they are trying to colonize more planets. Compare this to how old empires tried to expand (the Roman Empire, the Chinese, and so on). Maybe they could have something like this in mind but maybe I am wrong or maybe it is a bad idea, I don’t know.

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1507 XPMay-19-2016 8:56 AM

Caryn P:

 

The Davidic Covenant revolves around promises made to King David by God(s);  the Covenant that King David makes with God may be what we are specifically dealing with here.   “

 

I never looked at it that way, interesting. The question is who God would be though because Ridley (I think that it was) claimed that God wasn’t very nice (as far as I remember it but don’t take it too literally). David will probably play an important role but the question is how big it will be. As far as I remember they said that David wanted to be at the top of the hierarchy and that it would be a part of the story but then we also have other parts so the question is how big role that would play compared to the rest.

 

What you said about David sitting at a throne that could be an interesting thing although I doubt that they will do that. They will give him an important role but I wonder if it would be that big. As far as the bioweapons go maybe David would use them to try to secure his legacy/gain as much power as possible. Look at the company-David-Engineers as a huge power play about who will have the biggest piece of the pie. Maybe one of the ideas in the movie could be to show how much damage the hunt for power will do to people but then that is probably implied in the themes that they bring up.

 

As far as the Engineer city goes I am not sure if I want to have all the Engineers dead, that would be lame. I guess that what happens with the Xeno will probably reduce their numbers a lot but I am not sure if it would be wise to kill them all but then the Aztec civilization died out, and so on. You wrote “were still alive” which to me suggests that most of them are dead.

 

This makes me think of the dead Space Jockey, he was probably an Engineer (probably because we don’t know). I think that it could be interesting if he would be a part of a heavily reduced society of Engineers and that the rest maybe fled Paradise and settled on another planet because people in real life escape from war and try to get new lives in other parts of the world so why could this not happen to the Engineers if Paradise will go under?

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-20-2016 4:04 AM

@Thoughts_Dreams - "David will probably play an important role but the question is how big it will be."

I can see David playing a much bigger role in the story, but I don't really think he can act as our male lead or primary antagonist.  The story of David and Shaw's journey is hard to pull off for that very reason.

The filmmakers ran into a few "difficulties" with the early versions of the script that revolve around Shaw and David alone.  The Engineers don't speak English, and Shaw doesn't speak the Engineer language, so David would have played a much more central role in that particular story... which can potentially be seen as trickier to pull off, since the writers really only had Shaw, David, Aliens, and Engineers to work with at the time.

The studio execs found the early drafts with the android acting as the male lead to be too risky.  From an industry standpoint, Shaw and David's Excellent Adventure is viewed as very unconventional - seen as the hardest version of it to produce..  Each version of the script that covers it from that angle either doesn't do it justice, or becomes overly complicated, like BigDave said.  Some of Paglen's ideas were "too good" and ruled out for being damn near impossible.  The best possible version would take about 4 hours to tell; it works, it's just a long story.

Ridley will have to approach it all the back way, by way of flashbacks, clues, and hints of what happened.  There's not really enough screen time for the film to cover all that happens in the ideal version of the Shaw and David journey.  There's most likely still ways to address it built into later scripts.  They won't kill Shaw off, because prior to introducing Daniels, there were characters who simply acted as a window, or vantage point, into Shaw and David's story.  There are a number of other reasons why the Shaw and David story isn't viable:  the story hinges upon Shaw's ability to carry most of the plot by herself, which doesn't really allow new actors to have any roles.  This is viewed as a bad thing by some within the industry.  Not by Ridley or the writers; mostly by the studio.  They wouldn't go ahead with versions of the script that would be three hours long. 

It might be important for the new crew to be comprised of a few strong-willed human characters who can challenge the David's newfound sense of freedom.  When the story starts, Miss Shaw would have already suc***bed to the android's will.  Whatever happened, it was the David who did it, after he "tricked" her.  We'd look back on what happened, but when someone stumbles across her mid-transformation, we'd learn that David has essentially already won the symbolic chess match against her.  She becomes not much more than a pawn in the context of some of the later scripts.  I can reveal a little more about David's potential plan to sacrifice her.  But there's a better idea that had more staying power and probably found its way into the later scripts.  Everything I know is from a time just before Daniels enters the scripts.  Except for a couple things that Sigourney mentioned about Alien 5 at an expo (before my relationship with the studio ended).

It's more difficult to sympathize with the android if we see exactly how it outsmarts Shaw and/or wipes out the Engineers.  By catching up with David when he's on his own, they would bypass a number of issues that arise in a story that basically sees the android overpowering Shaw's will and deciding her fate.  He decides it for her.  David becoming free is just part of the Bladerunner ideas embedded in the story. That's not to say that all the Engineers are dead.  David just has his own agenda.

Depending on how it all plays out, the Engineers might not all be dead.  There very likely could have been a few survivors.  It's not a foregone conclusion that David actually brings Hell down upon them, but it is a foregone conclusion that he defeats Miss Shaw.  After which he has the ability to follow his own agenda.  David has been working towards his own agenda from the very start; however, what exactly his agenda entails can vary.

There would most likely be at least one living Engineer that they come across.  In actuality, there'd be more than a handful of survivors.  There's a young Engineer clone who emerges from a Matrix-like stasis pod in one of the scripts.  Despite the emphasis on the ALIENS, there will definitely be Engineers in the film.  I might get in a little trouble for saying this, but I kind of hope that the young Engineer clone is dead.  David advises us to kill it with fire if we see it scurrying around:  it's one of the ones he missed.  He doesn't know how the little one manages to survive.  Apparently, they're quick learners. He notes that they "grow up so fast."  And if Daniels doesn't want the little monster to grow any bigger, then she should probably deal with it before that happens...

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-20-2016 9:03 AM

Very interesting ideas... ;)

And with the latest leaked photos it could be that indeed a movie that follows the crew of the Covenant that land on Paradise and find David and then Aliens popping out all over the place....  is actually not quite what we are getting but only one Part...

CarynParnall  I thought you had a great imagination but maybe ;) its more than that ;)

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-20-2016 7:01 PM

There are still a lot of different ways Covenant could play out, because almost all the concepts and ideas they're working with existed in one form or another before.  The concept artists mixed a few ideas together to create new concepts related to the Sacrificial Goo.  At the same time, there are many old ideas that are simply being approached in a variety of new ways.

Paglen's early banned version of the script apparently brought a Transcendence-y vibe to the whole thing. There's a chance that we'll still see the Transcendence ideas pop up down the road.  But the final script for Covenant won't include Mr. Weyland returning in an android body as a machine consciousness, as that idea was ruled out... At one point, the art department was looking into bringing Peter Weyland back in hologram form.  Except that, he wouldn't really be a hologram, he'd be an exact approximation of Mr. Weyland in his younger years.  The holographic simulation of Weyland can move between the dreamworld of the subconscious and live in different bodies.  It would have been revealed to be a literal "ghost" of the real Mr. Weyland, who died years ago... when the memorial was held in the corporate timeline.  The company is able to trick Mr. Weyland's head back to life.  The thing that accompanied Shaw and David to greet the Engineer was practically a zombie... 

The Transcendence-y ideas have basically been removed from all the later scripts, even though we might see hints of the general concept of Transcendence popping up here and there.  The filmmakers want to hold off on some ideas that are a little more like Transcendence and Avatar than Matrix/Bladerunner.  The virtual reality simulation of Mr. Weyland would be able to act as his Avatar while he moves between physical bodies.  His new body isn't done yet, and neither is Shaw's.  Dr. Holloway didn't know that he was actually following a simulation of Mr. Weyland who had access to Weyland's mind and memories:  "following a ghost."

Interpreting all the data is no easy task.  The company made more mistakes than initially thought in their translations of the data on the Accelerant/Sacrificial Goo. More than 5% of the data in the files is inaccurate; we weren't even 95% certain.  The androids are a little better at translating the language(s), yet we can't let that stop us from interpreting all the data on our own.  David doesn't possess true human intuition, so he can't interpret the meaning of all the artwork, the statues, and the architecture as well.  They tried teaching him how to interpret human artwork on his Birthday, but the android has trouble understanding Engineer images.  Some visual patterns are hard for David to decipher, which gives the Company more perspective on the big picture.

David is doing what he's doing for his own purposes instead of the company's selfish purposes.  The company may be greedy and selfish at the higher levels, and most of the higher-ups ARE like that, yet they still work towards the collective will of the Company.  The whole upper third of the company is greedy, although this doesn't characterize the many good-natured people existing at the middle-upper management levels.  There are good people in the company, but these people never rise to the very top because of an unwillingness to step over others.  

To effect any real change in the company, it is necessary for a secretive rogue faction of Marines to begin infiltrating the higher levels via covert actions.  We will find out more about this in Alien 5.  Hicks and Ripley are eventually recruited into a secretive faction of Elite Marines who are inevitably forced to act as the last true form of Government in the universe (Earth gov't ends).  

An elite division of rogue Marines goes behind colonial administration's back and avoids the machines who are awake to their presence in both the "dreamworld" and in the Real timeline; Hicks is given the Red Pill and told that "for him, it's not really Game Over, man."  Hudson was unfortunately recruited into the Elite division of marines too, after he died "for Real."   Hudson/Bill Paxton is now part of a group of Immortal Marines, though.  In the future, a number of machines are trying to use the FTL satellites to create further windows into the past.  The rogue Marines prevent the machines from being able to hijack reality completely.  The past is safe and "real;" and sometime in the 57 years between Alien and ALIENS is when machines start doing things to manipulate Reality. Mankind's theories about the entire universe potentially being a living hologram factor into some of these ideas.

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember750 XPMay-21-2016 12:42 AM

@Caryn "The filmmakers ran into a few "difficulties" with the early versions of the script that revolve around Shaw and David alone…….."

Caryn There is obviously real authority in this whole post. I just wanted to thank you for laying out so well the challenges,responses and decisions which have lead to A.C. 

This line of yours I quote in a sense belongs in the Shaw thread but it's applicability to how they found "Why The Zeno, why Daniels and lastly to this thread starter Why Covenant".

"the story hinges upon Shaw's ability to carry most of the plot by herself, which doesn't really allow new actors to have any roles".

Shaw as the driver of the story would have meant the drama came from the enigmatic portrayal of what they hung the story on (The transcendence-e element) rather than the narrative. It would have been a fantastic art house movie a little like the small but big science fiction of Gattaca but the narrative for a tent pole needs to be more robust. 

I am repeating myself but what is exciting is that Ridley may have dressed and narrated the film like a tent pole but on closer examination is offering something much more vigorous and intellectuality stimulating. 

 

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-21-2016 3:21 AM

@Michelle Johnston 

No problem :) I love talking about the studio politics aspect and speculating about where it could all be going. The studio wants a movie that more closely resembles an Alien film, while most of the people involved with the artistic side of things have been pushing for the inclusion of more ideas that would encourage intellectual debate, more fan theories etc.

At a certain point during the run-up to Prometheus, it was decided to make the answers a little harder to figure out.  The early Prometheus scripts were altered to be less straightforward, because if the planet turned out to be LV-426, then all the mystery surrounding the original Space Jockey would vanish too quickly.  

The way the creature's life-cycle & evolutionary science works in the Spaights script was altered.  Which makes the whole thing with the Sacrificial Goo more like a puzzle that needs to be solved.  

Insiders started being kept in the dark on how all the puzzle pieces might connect.  The Green Goo that David finds "interesting" is something that most people tend to overlook or forget about when discussing Prometheus.  The Green type of Goo is related to the Green Stone that appeared briefly in the Prometheus trailers.  There's a plan for how it all connects.  Ridley and others have a clear vision in mind for presenting the updated life-cycle and many answers.  I'm just not exactly sure what it is. There are answers that might be able to be figured out already from things like the Furious Gods do***entary, stuff included on the Blu-ray.  For the most part, we must search a little longer and harder for the answers:  it was an attempt to put the audience in Shaw's shoes.

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-21-2016 7:19 AM

As far as Weyland..... before Prometheus hit the Big Screen i had studied the trailers the Viral Sites etc... and i was drawn to a conclusion that Weyland wanted to be Immortal and was old.... and to me the SYNAPSE REESTABLISHER  would have been used in conjunction with the NEURO VISOR to Transend Weylands Soul (Memories and Personality) Into Davids Body, this was one idea that i was drawn to seeing in the movie.... that never happened.

The other was that this David/Weyland or normal David would evolve himself into something less Synthetic and become more a Real Boy like in Pinocchio  but ultimately doing so would then had allowed via his own doing (infecting Shaw) to then become Face Hugged and give birth to the Proto-Xeno... a Bio-Mechanical Horror..

I thought this is where the Plot and Trailers were sending me.... i never liked this theory due to the Time Frame as i thought and still think the Space Jockey was on LV-426 for thousands of years and was not Human or Android.

So both these ideas i was drawn to never happened in the end..... but who knows can we rule out them being in the 2nd movie?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1507 XPMay-22-2016 7:02 AM

CarynP :

 

Yeah I don’t think that David should be the main bad guy for some reasons one being the one that you mentioned. I think that it was good that they are thinking about having more characters because that could contribute to interesting side stories or what ever you call them.

 

Maybe the one of the problems is that Prometheus had too many ideas to choose from as far as where to go next. This could be one of the things that wasn’t too good about it.

 

I don’t think that Shaw could carry the story all by herself, she is just a badly written character for that to work. My reaction would have been “Oh there goes that annoying ****er from Prometheus”. They could have made that work but they didn’t. Shaw wouldn’t have been much of a problem is she would have been written better but that goes for many characters in Prometheus, not just Shaw.

I would prefer if there were some survivors from the Engineers. After all there were people that survived Hiroshima, right? That could bring a comparison to the real world so to speak. Movies become somewhat more interesting if some of it is based in real life but that you make a twist of it in the movie.

 

Both the Engineers and the monsters could be in the movie, I would prefer that.

 

You wrote that the should deal with the little Engineer (I guess) before it grows bigger (an idea that David has). Would that mean that David would like all the Engineers to be dead? If he would like to be the king of it all then if he killed all Engineers there would be no one to rule over right? So why would he like to kill them all?

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-22-2016 3:18 PM

Well Shaw could have been written better and improved upon for a sequel but she wont play a part now, not as far as in person with regards to Rappace, maybe she will in future movie? who knows?

I think there should be some Engineers left or the Hierarchy above them, i would imagine there would have been by the time David arrived.. just like i would assume Shaw was alive after they left LV-223

But they could have no Engineers alive by the time the Covenant arrives which is the start of the movie, so we are looking at the Aftermath of David being on Paradise for a number of years most likely...

And i hope we get some clues as to what he found, that is no longer there now... Flash Backs would work... unless the 3rd movie will cover some of the events between 2094 and 2104

I think a reason the Engineers could not have come back to LV-223 or Earth would be part of the Name of the Movie..

In that i think a Covenant was made to just not bother with us or use the Evil Bio Weapon... again.

I would also like to think if thats the case and as of Prometheus 2093 timeline there are some Engineers or Hierarchy on Paradise.. then i would like to think maybe David comes to a Covenant with them...

But ultimately he breaks his Covenant/Deal with them. This could explain why we dont have Engineers involved in the Alien Franchise.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-22-2016 10:17 PM

@Thoughts_Dreams

This is mostly just my hypothesis, but killing all the Engineers would bring David closer to the "real Gods."

David would have suspected that this group of gods was "mortal," or "mortal after all," since the start of his journey.  Unlike Miss Shaw and Holloway, the android predicts that LV-223 isn't the Engineer home planet as soon as the adventure begins.  When he opens the shutters and looks out at LV-223 for the first time, the android already knows that "there is nothing in the desert, and no man needs nothing."  He's looking forward to what's about to happen, because he already has most of his trick planned out before they even touch down.

LV-223 was close enough to a sun to support life, yet there weren't really enough natural resources on the desert planet to support an advanced civilization.  It was unlikely that the company would find the immortality they were looking for on LV-223 (no man needs nothing). It became even less probable after David confirmed that the Engineers were mortal and could actually die. Thus, he already knew that there was nothing there that they needed - when he led Mr. Weyland to his death.

Shaw and Vickers tried to warn Mr. Weyland that there was "only death down there," and "if he went down there, he was going to die."  David understood this just as well as them.  Bishop's behavioural inhibitors prevent Bishop from being able to harm humans through any omission of his actions.  David was the only one that Peter would have listened to.  Charles Bishop Weyland would feel that by failing to warn his relative about his impending demise, David is at least partially responsible for Peter Weyland's death.  He still blames David for it... 

They honestly do NEED stronger characters to help tell the whole story.  I feel that Shaw's character isn't really strong enough to outmaneuver the android. I favour the brain salad theory of what happens to Miss Shaw for that very reason:  if Shaw is transformed into Shaw 2.0, then we can actually see her reach her full potential.  As it stands, she's a little half-baked and undercooked.  David decides to put Shaw back in the oven, because she's not done yet; so he throws her back in the Forge.  Miss Shaw just isn't fertile enough for David's purposes.  She can't carry the whole thing to terms.  While she's not completely barren, her eggs are not quite viable enough.  For whatever reason, even the Aliens don't want her.  David finds her useless and considers sacrificing her for the greater good.  

Miss Shaw puts up a good fight, but now her fate rests in David's hands.  Because she really only has half a brain in comparison to him.  It might be even less than that now.  She could currently be transforming into "Shaw 2.0" (if he decides not to transform her into an alien egg or something else).  She's a tad too infertile to be transformed into a Queen by the creature's DNA.  For some reason, she can't easily pump out the eggs.  David doesn't know, it might be something wrong with her fallopian tubes.  But if he turns her into the mother of a species of biomechanical humans, then he can simultaneously solve a problem he has with not being able to reproduce on his own.  He has a plan for her to become the biomechanical MOTHER of his children.

At the end of Spaights' script, the game of chess that David plays against Shaw is more literal than symbolic. The android eventually manages to overpower her mind during their "chess battles" in order to impose his will over her.  It's not really that important to see how it all happens.  We don't really need to see how David wins the chess battle:  we only need to learn that he did.  His last words to her in the Spaights script are "Rook takes Bishop."  The chess game that David plays against himself in the Happy Birthday vid would become highly symbolic over time.  Chess is a game of Kings.

In the early script, David reveals how he's read the crew's psych profiles and they're "all so stupid."  He looked into their minds to learn how to better manipulate the incredibly stupid Prometheus crew into following a predestined course of behaviours.  In essence, the android is able to manipulate each of the crewmembers' minds by bringing certain memories to the surface of the subconscious to trigger emotional responses.  He was monitoring their subconscious emotional states the whole time, although the Prometheus crew was consciously unaware that they were being conditioned and programmed by him - like robots. 

The humans will be easier for the android to rule over than the Engineers, since he already understands how the humans think.  So, to answer the question about who androids would rule over, it would be the humans. Daniels wouldn't know yet that David is already looking forward to a "merger" of sorts with mankind. To create an "upgraded" version of humanity, it's necessary to destroy the most recent one.  David would want to keep the humans around to act as employees of the company once he secretly takes it over and enslaves them.  He'd have plans for the remaining humans to serve beneath.

Mr. Weyland filled the goddamn android's head with ideas about being immortal.  Despite not wanting to be "too close" to humans, the android is eventually forced to make a deal with mankind that allows us to survive in some form... The machines need something from us, something we and Engineers have that they don't. The humans would be much easier to secretly rule over.  The rogue android only needs to think that the company is willing to negotiate with it.  This will prevent it from springing its deathtrap before Daniels has a chance to spring her trap.  Mr. Weyland created the androids, but Daniels might be somewhat prepared to act as David's Destroyer once she gets down to the planet.

Shaw is barely conscious when Daniels finds her.  She's not making any sense; she keeps saying "kill me," and she's no use figuring out what's going on.  Daniels is torn on what to do, because some people want Shaw dead to make things easier.  The company may or may not want Shaw back, and the goddamn android wants her alive for its own agenda.  However, at this point in Daniels' game, it's actually better to keep Dr. Shaw alive as a bargaining chip against the stupid android... Daniels hates the goddamn android, so she plans to use Shaw against him. She's tempted to just use her flamethrower on the newly transformed Miss Shaw, but the situation is very complicated.  It's said that Prometheus begged to be killed when Zeus's eagle was pecking out his liver for all eternity.  Each new day, Prometheus was reborn; only to have his liver devoured by the creature later that night.  He tried sending word to Zeus, begging for forgiveness, pleading with Zeus to "kill him" - to just let him die. Zeus was not so kind as to just let Prometheus die. 

Shaw would be reborn as something else.  But for now, she is no Queen or King.  She's not a science-fiction Queen like Ripley/Sigourney is, and she's really not that important to the company; therefore, Miss Shaw can easily be sacrificed and replaced.  The company can find better archaeologists to employ. They only really needed Dr. Shaw for her Star Map.  She's useless to them now. 

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember750 XPMay-23-2016 1:13 AM

@Caryn. 

There seems to be a degree of symmetry between the reduction of Shaw and the introduction of Daniel's. I suspect this belongs to the Logan/ALIEN Prefix/10 years movement. 

I think your calibration on Shaw in that new narrative environment feels about right. In the more robust world that Logan is creating I favour the Brain Salad argument. She was tenacious in the 3rd Act of Prometheus and suffered a catastrophic loss of  innocence. Ultimately she will be duped by David and I suspect what will give the duping credibility is Ridders big idea for David. It will appear so audacious Shaw's down fall looks inevitable but also fresh. That movement if explained is a moment of jeopardy for the script we have seen how she reacts to  ambitions to be used for sub creation already and whatever is done needs to make us feel it does not contradict that reaction to get in the med pod.

I thought she worked well in Prometheus as the scientist wearing Jesus Sandals but once we saw P.W. , and David became poison in the narrative , whilst she could be plucky she was as you say no Ripley. I thought Ridley got that right, what drove her was her single minded sense of indigent enquiry rather than "lets blast the f….." Sensibly this was one of the benefits of the Lindelof adjustment there was no f….. to blast. 

If Daniels isn't to be a trope for the franchise she needs to be enigmatic, her personality soup can be cynical (a dash of Ripley) a great crisis manager (unlike Miss Vickers) but her tenaciousness needs to be her ability to Decker David. We need to avoid the physical heroism of Sigourney in A and A's.That sort of thing for me is the definition of fan service.

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-23-2016 1:29 AM

Yeah, I think you're correct in assuming that Logan was brought in to inject more personality into the characters. At least I hope so.  The potential symmetry to it all would be quite poetic in a way.

Danny McBride's casting is what tipped me off to the idea that the final scripts would contain a David who has a dark sense of humour about it.  We'll likely see a little more personality out of him too.  McBride is a fairly talented comedic actor, and I can't really see them wasting his talents by killing him off quickly.

Comedic actors need to possess a very good sense of dramatic timing, so I'm actually expecting McBride to be one of our main characters.  This might be a chance for him to show that he has serious dramatic chops as well. I also think Waterson is a talented actress who can pull off the type of character I'm envisioning for Daniels.   

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember750 XPMay-23-2016 8:41 AM

@Caryn 

I had a look at some of McBride and Waterson's work today. I was taken aback at how Katherine's nuanced, dense ,difficult to read approach would fit perfectly for my vision of Daniels and Danny's in your face emotional acting would be a great foil for Daniel's. 

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-23-2016 4:10 PM

McBride usually does play characters who are a little over the top like that, but I'm thinking that his performance could be a little more subdued in this.

He has a certain "every man" quality to him, which leads me to believe that he'll fit in well with blue collar colonists working on the colony.  I picture McBride's character acting as a metaphorical devil on Daniels' shoulder.  He'd be someone working for the company who knows there's more to the whole project/mission.

One thought I had is that McBride could act as an independent contractor who's not really working for the company but has a deal with them to dig out the subterranean levels of the colony with heavy machinery. He's not necessarily evil, but he's greedy and somewhat immoral; he's already planning on staking his claim on some Engineer tech.  The company wants to dig a bunch of secret tunnels that link the colony with the subterranean levels of the engineer ruins.  McBride is hired to operate the tunneling equipment and set explosive charges.  In the event that the covert operation goes sideways, he's supposed to collapse the tunnels.

The Captain (or someone similar) is who I think will emerge as a true force of good in the story.  Daniels would be conflicted, torn between moral and immoral courses of action.  And we can't trust the other David to be "good," or to influence Daniels to make the correct choices.  The Captain character (possibly played by Bichir) would be similar to Dallas and Janek.  He would represent innocence at the beginning of the story, since he's just supposed to do his job and not ask questions.  Over the course of the story, our true male lead would be revealed through his actions. 

My idea is that it'll kind of be the inverse of Alien. The cast would be more of an ensemble, yet we'd spend most of the movie thinking that Daniels is our main character.  But then she suddenly makes a choice to sacrifice herself to save the others.  We'd think that she's going to survive just because she's our female protagonist, which could lull us into a false sense of security about her chances of survival.  The Alien doesn't really know that she's "supposed to survive." In a very shocking twist, a crew member she manages to save would become our new protagonist in the end. 

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9954 XPMay-23-2016 4:28 PM

Yes its interesting to see what role the Cast will play.

To me McBride  would play the Fool, like Milburn but not as stupid, but i think McBride's Character would provide Character would be laid back, a bit of a joker of the pack and its his Foolishness that causes something to go wrong, or that he is the one who is easily subdued by David for Davids Agenda...

As far as the Two Davids, we dont know for sure all that is known is Fassbender will play Two Roles... David 8 and a Doppelganger i also think the Synopsis seemed to Emphasize David as SYNTHETIC so maybe we would see a Non-Synthetic David or David look-a-like? 

I think Bichir and Crudups Characters will be important i think one would take the role of Captain, or the Hero Guy ( Bichir) and i think Crudup would play the Corporate Slime Ball...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-23-2016 7:41 PM

@BigDave - A corporate slime ball type would make a lot of sense for Crudup.  That type of character could tie into the ideas about The Covenant in multiple ways.

I've been trying to figure out what our main characters might be like in order to learn more about the plot.  I totally agree that Crudup will be one of our mains.  It seems like the character work and even the overall look and feel of the film will be more similar to what we see in the original film:  a little more of a blue collar feel to some characters.  At the same time, there's probably at least one corporate snake on board (plus a few ideas about "the colonies" and terraforming, like in Aliens). 

Even if all Engineers on the home planet are dead, we can't be sure that they didn't establish thousands of colonies across the universe.  If mother earth is destroyed, then Weyland-Yutani may be able to carry on without her, since they've always got the colonies.

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1507 XPMay-24-2016 8:27 AM

Big Dave:

So Shaw isn’t there but I wonder how they will have the new characters (I am mainly thinking about Daniels here). This is one of the reasons why I will watch the movie, to see how the new characters are. Hopefully they will be convincing and not annoying bastards that we don’t care about.

 

Maybe she will be used in holograms if it is needed, at least that is a possibility.

 

Yeah I hope that there will be some Engineers alive when they get there. They could show the Engineer society as flashbacks but it could be interesting to see how it was like and have it in present time of they make it interesting enough but it depends how they manage to make the Engineers.

 

The broken covenant, well I am not sure if that could be a reason why we see no Engineers in the Alien movies. Maybe there are some Engineers left but that they plan things from behind the curtains so to speak. What if they have a role in what happens in Alien 1, 2, and 3 but that we don’t see them, I think that would be interesting and that it would add a new layer to the Alien movies. Just because they are not on screen in the Alien movies doesn’t mean that they are not involved (just as the emperor isn’t shown in Star Wars 4 but that he must have some role in what happens there).

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1507 XPMay-24-2016 8:29 AM

Caryn P:

I remember that David said something like “mortal after all” so he understood that the Engineers could die. Weyland said in the translated version of when he speaks to the Engineers “we’re Gods and Gods don’t die” (Something like that I can be mistaken about the translation, why the F didn’t they translate it? That was stupid, and it would have made so much more sense if they would have translated it.) In other words he thought that the Engineers were immortal which they aren’t.

 

Yeah Shaw wasn’t very interesting although there were a potential in the character they totally wasted it. Who wrote the characters? Who edited the movie? My suspicion is that both the writing of the characters and the editing made them look worse. Shaw version 2 would be interesting since the one we got in Prometheus simply wasn’t good. If they sacrifice Shaw to make her a better character in Shaw version 2 them I am for it. Shaw could make her into something else in order to push the story forward to the Xenos, Hopefully they won’t be lazy about it and take the most obvious way. Remember how they had human beings that they tested the Xenos on in Alien Ressurection? I don’t want it to be like that, it got to be smarter.

 

While transforming Shaw into an alien egg could be a way I think that they could make it more interesting. An egg isn’t as alive as a monster or something similar. Sure they could let her become an Egg but I think that they could do better than that. My preferred version would probably be a mix of human and Xeno since if I am not mistaken Xenos take traits from the host that they are born out of (remember that Xenos in Alien 3).

 

You mentioned that David read the minds of the crew in an early script. This is probably how they came up with the idea that David could read people’s dreams. Remember that he spoke to Shaw about how her parents died “your father died under similar cir***stances”, something similar to that). I am not a fan of the idea that David could manipulate people’s minds, that would make him too much of a villain I think it would be easier to have him at a grey scale although the idea is interesting. You mentioned that he programmed them like robots, which is interesting it sort of blurs the line between robot and humans in an sci-fi way which is interesting.

 

So if David wants the robots to be the masters over humans then would anyone human understand that or be suspicious of it and if so how would they have gained enough information about it? The more he does the more he is trying to make machines rule over mankind but wouldn’t his action when he has done a lot make people suspicious about it and then they will find out about it anyways? I doubt that he would be able to pull of a big plan like that all by himself or totally in secret since the plan is too huge.

 

About Shaw being useless to the company: that is how they have considered humans in the whole franchise all along. Remember how they spoke about the company in Alien (1979) so that is a continuation on that.

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