Alien Movie Universe

Ambiguity vs vagueness...and other stuff.

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Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-12-2013 9:37 PM
I watched Prometheus again since I had nothing better to do and wrote some things down. First have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguity Now, from what I can make of this, ambiguity means that a concept/statement/ object…that is ambiguous, can be interpreted in TWO different ways. Not 3 or 15. Then it becomes vague. The eggs in ALIEN are a perfect example of ambiguity: are they a bio-weapon or not? Simple as that. It’s one or the other. We don’t get an answer to this question in the entire Quadrilogy. And remember that the Queen also came from an egg and that Hudson’s statement: ‘How can they cut the power, they’re animals, man’ doesn’t count either because he’s just a ‘grunt’. No offense Hudson. The only thing that comes to mind that’s ambiguous is the freaking cover: Is the head a representation of the engineers’ power or ours? Here are some things in Prometheus that are not ambiguous, but vague/ unclear: *The green egg/crystal/ bio-weapon/ ornament. *The alien-mural: multiple explanations. *The black goo: I’m not even going to start with this one… *Why did Weyland hide on the ship the entire time? *Shaw crying in front of the mirror: I got this from the ‘everything wrong with Prometheus’-clip that’s on Youtube: ‘ Is she crying about her dead dreams, her dead lover or her dead faith?’ *The engineer ripping David’s head off: Was it because they asked him to tell them the secret for eternal life? Was he angry that they woke him up/ didn’t get his coffee? Or that they made an android and that he felt threatened by our inventiveness. Did David offend him? Did he think David was a Nazi? Lol Other flaws: http://www.moviemistakes.com/film9292 Some others I noticed: *Shaw looks through a crevice in the rock and by the time Charlie gets there, it’s already a massive hole sealed with plastic. She even has already dated the drawing to be 35.000 years old. O.o *In 2089 some people don’t even know what a Christmas tree is anymore… *Scientists can’t tell if a structure is natural or not… *’JESUS. THE SUNLIGHT IS HEATING THE WATER…’ WELL DUH!! *’Ellie, I’m not wearing this thing anymore (helmet)’ Was it really that uncomfortable to wear? Well, then die if you really want to take the risk. *’Just another tomb?’ What the hell, dude? *Holloway doesn’t care at ALL about David’s safety, yet he’s the one who yells at him that they’re leaving. *no contamination protocols whatsoever… *How come there’s cell growth on the engineer’s head? * DNA match? As in: ‘when you look for the culprit of a crime’- DNA-match? *Holloway getting drunk, ah sr*w it! Conclusion: Man, this is may be my third of fourth viewing but this is amateur hour…at best! Never have I come across so many stupid faults in a movie of this caliber that has such a famous name in cinema-land attached to it. Not even the amazing visuals can save it. Prometheus is vague as **** and definitely not as ‘ambiguous’ as some people believe it to be. This movie has only one leg it can stand on and it barely even succeeds in doing that. It NEEDS a sequel to give answers to the billions of questions raised here. It cannot stand on its own because the story can be interpreted in a million ways. I still can’t wrap my mind around the fact how unbelievably unsophisticated it all turned out to be. It raises SO many questions, they’re now having trouble to write a sequel, of which I’m not surprised at all. I honestly don’t get that nobody mentioned these flaws in basic movie-making 101 to Ridley. I tried to list it all but it’s just too much and I gave up when I wasn’t even halfway. And we are being spoon fed: Janek says it’s a weapons-facility. BAM!
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!
49 Replies

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-12-2013 9:58 PM
What a clusterf*ck! honestly, this is like one of those bombs that explodes into even tinier bombs that say' go f*ck yourself' when you step on it.
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

Visionary Alpha

MemberOvomorphNov-12-2013 11:47 PM
You did good submitting these criticisms. I'd like to hear the second half of the them, actually. I have really enjoyed the movie, and most of what you point out occurred to me, too. It has more than enough redeeming qualities to be exciting, creepy, and to raise many questions for us about what is out there waiting for us in space. I have never seen a greater variety of dangers, or more suspense in trying to learn at great risk.

Visionary Alpha

MemberOvomorphNov-12-2013 11:48 PM
One thing, I didn't get your point about DNA match. It's probably obvious, and I'm just missing it, but could you explain?

pulserifle187

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 3:34 AM
I agree the movie is ambiguous and at times,vague. But there is alot missing from the movie. Ridley did state during a doco about prometheus, that it was meant to be 3 hrs long or there was 3 hrs of material. just a mention about hollaway taking his helmet off. Hes is just a archaeologist (sorry to all archaeologist amongest us), not a seasoned intergalactic explorer.
"how do you feel?"-" great, next stupid question"

Major Noob

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 6:00 AM
Wasn't Shaw crying because she was in pain and afraid?

djamelameziane

MemberFacehuggerNov-13-2013 6:08 AM
Even though I am on your side you are slightly wrong with ambiguity - it can have unlimited meanings the difference is that ambiguity can have specific meanings vague has no specific meanings. Promethues has both of these and too many vague ones! Part 2 hopefully will patch up some! The best might even be ridley planned it all as some kind of master plan and he'll end up looking like a genius :p . I must admit I have renewed faith in him after seeing the counsellor even though its not a master piece its definitely brave and a great try at something new.

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

djamelameziane

MemberFacehuggerNov-13-2013 6:08 AM
Even though I am on your side you are slightly wrong with ambiguity - it can have unlimited meanings the difference is that ambiguity can have specific meanings vague has no specific meanings. Promethues has both of these and too many vague ones! Part 2 hopefully will patch up some! The best might even be ridley planned it all as some kind of master plan and he'll end up looking like a genius :p . I must admit I have renewed faith in him after seeing the counsellor even though its not a master piece its definitely brave and a great try at something new.

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 6:47 AM
@visionary Alpha: hi :) When we want to know who committed a crime, through DNA-research, you want to be [b]100 percent[/b] sure. And They look nothing like us. We have about 97 percent in common with the bonobo apes, so in theory the SJ's should look EXACTLY like us, but they don't...Even the pictures match 100 percent in the scan. @Djamelameziane, I kind of have an idea who's on my side :) I want you to read the wikipedia page again, and tell me where exactly you see more then 2 explanations for 1 concept. Look at the necker cube at the bottom, if you will. bye!
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 7:01 AM
In my tongue ambiguity is called 'dubbelzinnigheid'. literally: double sentencesness or something like that. Think of a bisexual person. I believe 'bi' means 2 in Latin but I'm not sure.
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 7:41 AM
@major noob. Exactly! that's where I'm getting at. We just DON't know...I say this, you say that. And all that matters are the movies tell us.
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

Fleshvessel

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 7:44 AM
Ok, Vickers knows what a Christmas tree is- she just doesn't like Janek 'decking the halls' "What the hell is that" is rhetorical. Weyland is not 'hiding'- he only has days of life left. He certainly does not wanna waste them sitting on the ship. Sunlight- duh?! Maybe- but it is an exciting find for them no? I see nothing wrong with this scene. Holloway is a thrill-seeker. Also, they just discovered that their potential 'creator' is terraforming this rock, seemingly like a welcome mat rolled out. David and their meyers have confirmed the air is safe (and probably contagion-free) Vickers sure had her 'Contamination Protocol.' I'm thinking the Engineer was infected with the goo. Was that not obvious? Holloway is a dick. Also- a lot of people drink to deal with things. This is not news. Oh- the mural/ crystal. My theory- we made this (Goo) from this (Mural) using this (Crystal) My conclusion- you are watching it wrong :)
THETRICKISNOTMINDINGITHURTS

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 8:10 AM
"What the hell is that" is rhetorical. Nope, it’s ambiguous. “Sunlight- duh?! Maybe- but it is an exciting find for them no? I see nothing wrong with this scene.†Sunlight ALWAYS heats water!! Not just on that planet. Holloway is a thrill-seeker. Also, they just discovered that their potential 'creator' is terraforming this rock, seemingly like a welcome mat rolled out. David and their meyers have confirmed the air is safe (and probably contagion-free) Any RATIONAL person would have kept their helmets on just incase. But you go ahead whenever you’re in space on an unknown planet that is potentially hostile. Vickers sure had her 'Contamination Protocol.' I might take that back, but I’ll have to see the movie again *shudders* I'm thinking the Engineer was infected with the goo. Was that not obvious? I don’t doubt that at all. I doubt the several effects the goo has. Zombies, evolution for worms, breaking stuff down (Holloway vs SJ) Holloway is a dick. Also- a lot of people drink to deal with things. This is not news. Even if you have just made the MOST IMPORTANT DISCOVERY IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND? Oh- the mural/ crystal. My theory- we made this (Goo) from this (Mural) using this (Crystal). Well, that’s YOUR theory not mine. You don't have ANY evidence to back that up from what's being said IN the movie. If you want this to be true then the burden of proof is on your shoulders, because you just made this wild-ass assertion. My conclusion- you are watching it wrong It’s funny when people resort to meaningless arguments when they’re stuck. Either you’re a hardcore fanboy or just blind to the truth.
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 8:16 AM
Btw, rhetorical means it has no clear answer. Thnaks for backing up my idea in this this thread :)
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

djamelameziane

MemberFacehuggerNov-13-2013 9:03 AM
Omfg just wrote a massive post with explanations and accidentally came out of this page on my phone and lost it. Ok so basically ambiguous just means more than one meaning it is not limited. Your forgetting about context and perception. With these you can quickly have many more meanings which are not vague an so are ambigiuos. Ill give u a simple one : I cant tell you how I enjoyed seeing your wifes fany. Now that has 3 meanings 2 to any good english speaker in its self plus 1 more because americans call a bum a fanny but engkish call a vagina a fanny so depending on the audience it has 3 total meanings. Then if you move on to more complex stuff like visual time frames ie what year it is were you are what you are etc etc it get really complex. Also notice dictionaries always say more than one meaning and never limited to two. Ps surely the first rule in archeollogy is dont contaminate the scene as much as possible ie keep helmet on...spaights said logic dictates keep helmet on on the blu ray even the makers were saying this!!

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 9:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agCmezMPXqM What the hell happened with this movie?!? Why are they doing all this to my all-time favourite franchise? T.T Prometheus, Colonial Marines...YOU BETTER GET IT RIGHT NEXT TIME 'FOCKS'!! YOU READING ALL THIS?? WHAT DO YOU THINK WE ARE? A BUNCH OF BONEHEADS?!?
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 9:14 AM
'Ok so basically ambiguous just means more than one meaning it is not limited.' Think of a bisexual person. BI= I'm for both sides. There's one way to look at it and the other has a hidden/more profound meaning.
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

djamelameziane

MemberFacehuggerNov-13-2013 9:27 AM
Not sure what you are getting at - your saying bisexual has 2 or 3 meanings?

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 9:33 AM
A BIsexual person wants to make love with 2 kinds of people: men or women. In movies: There's one way to look at sth and the other has a hidden/more profound meaning... I really hope I'm making myself clear now.
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

djamelameziane

MemberFacehuggerNov-13-2013 9:51 AM
Yer ok I see what your saying but you still can have more than 2 ways of looking at anything that's in a film and ambiguous you could for instance have two obvious ways of looking at it and many hidden ones. For instance that sentence I said is obvious to the audience and the maker so its 3 obvious meanings. But yes it is rare to use more than 2 as there is not much point as most films are trying to make things simple for the audience and nowa-days they are international so things can have multiple meanings in different countries as you know :D . Again the word 'good' is ambiguous : "Good", for example, can mean "useful" or "functional" (That's a good hammer), "exemplary" (She's a good student), "pleasing" (This is good soup), "moral" (a good person versus the lesson to be learned from a story), "righteous", etc. " I have a good daughter" is not clear about which sense is intended. from that wikki page - good has many meanings more than two but is still ambiguous. And anyway it doesn't really matter I reckon I merely look at most of what I saw in Prometheus as vague not ambiguous the important definition being : "An ambiguous concept It is generally contrasted with vagueness, in that specific and [u]distinct interpretations[/u] are permitted (although some may not be immediately apparent), whereas with information that is vague it is [u]difficult to form any interpretation at the desired level of specificity[/u]." And I reckon most lovers of prometheus generally think prometheus is ambiguous and there fore intended to be the way it is and haters see it as vague and unintended :P .

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 10:03 AM
LAST......TIME: An ambiguous concept It is generally contrasted with vagueness,[b] in that specific and distinct interpretations are permitted[/b] (although some may not be immediately apparent) YES? YOU HAVE ONE INTERPRETATION AND ANOTHER. HOLY SHIT DUDES. DON'T YOU EVEN KNOW YOUR OWN LANGUAGE?!? I don't 'see' Prometheus as vague, IT IS, REPEAT IS VAGUE!!! I need a cigarette....
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-13-2013 10:07 AM
Everyone has their own opinions and are entitled to them.... The movie however is a failure as a stand alone movie, by that anyone who watches it who has never seen a Alien movie or heard of the franchise and even those who vaguely seen one, well these people would for the most part see this movie and go.... WTF! But if your a follower of the Franchise then the movie is not so bad, a disappointment yes but it would be such for many for different reasons. When you have such a Classic, then sequels and prequels are bound to not live up to the Originals and that goes with Prometheus, The Thing, Star Wars just to name a few. Anyway for me yes some of the movie had Ambiguity or Vagueness, and thats fine.... but some of it was ridiculousness in the writing but then Lindeloff style often can lead to things being strange and not making sense or contradicting itself. For the most part though the plot and plot points and the clues or lack off, i think we GREAT because without the way they was done we would not have much to discuss about the movie.. Yes some Character use was dumb.... But for me the biggest problem was simply that there was so much more to this movie that was shot, in a intended order. That we never ended up seeing as first intended instead we get a cut that to me not only cuts some scenes down or out but also adds some scenes in slightly different order and some scenes have alternatives that, well make less sense than the other intended ones. When we see many movies Deleted Scenes most of the time you can go, yes i know why those scenes was cut and agree they was best left out and even some deleted scenes was stupid as far as fit in with the movie... But PROMETHEUS is one of those movies with vastly lots of stuff cut and that most of it actually would have made the movie far more better and far less confusing... So while the OP may argue a case of Ambiguity vs Vagueness, well i think what we do have is CONFUSING to that mix and this is a combination of the alternate scenes that was added at the expense of others left out and also Lindeloffs style of writing sometimes.... for example some of the confusing and contradicting elements of Lost!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 10:10 AM
An ambiguous concept[b] It[/b] is generally contrasted with vagueness, in that specific and distinct interpretations are permitted (although some may not be immediately apparent) GIANT spelling mistake, even I know that...
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-13-2013 10:12 AM
As far as the Ambiguity debate vs Vagueness. is it really that important? Its only a word..... Lindeloff said himself the reasons for it was that it leaves for different interpretations of the said clues where no two conclusions may be the same and where no two conclusions can be wrong or right. End of the day the aim was to open up the subject to mass discussion, i think this is what Lindeloff was proud about the movie, and that if it was Spoon Fed then we would not have any discussions on here about he movie as much. it would mainly then be purely for the most part discussions about how good or poor the movie was, as opposed to discussing the clues we got that never gave us clear answers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 10:14 AM
Don't even bother bigD, with your assumption 'the more I write down, the more I'm right'. I'm NOT reading all that.
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

djamelameziane

MemberFacehuggerNov-13-2013 10:17 AM
Oh dear hes had a mental break down - come back when your making more sense. Your getting angry because I agree with you LOL?! And what your typing is not making sense in parts could I say that you are vague - no I cant you are vague only in parts like the film lol :D ! And yes you do see it as vague but someone else sees it as not im afraid this is reality you just don't understand the sentence! It was explaining the different view points not what might actually be!!

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

Gimm-e

MemberOvomorphNov-13-2013 10:22 AM
@ djawhatever...please reread all of it and YOU come back when you get it into your THICK skull.
You don\\\'t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

djamelameziane

MemberFacehuggerNov-13-2013 10:24 AM
And yer dave this is like the 'plot hole' vs 'mistake' etc. arguement all over again - I ended up not using the word and just talking about the specifics which is the important thing :P ...

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

djamelameziane

MemberFacehuggerNov-13-2013 10:26 AM
LOL hes still attacking me for agreeing with him - language barriers are so funny sometimes ...so hes telling me to get the thing that I already think is right through my skull :O how do I do that? Hahahhaha

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-13-2013 10:27 AM
"It’s funny when people resort to meaningless arguments when they’re stuck. Either you’re a hardcore fanboy or just blind to the truth." I dont think thats the case here at all, its as i have said everyone has their own opinion on the movie, you are very disappointed and thats your view and someone may have been vastly impressed by the movie. Thats not to say that one is correct and the other is not or that ones point is valid while the other is not. Its not a case of Black and White, and thats especially true of this movie. You dont have to read all my post, thats your choice and i was not assuming, your maybe assuming i am assuming lol.... My point is really is there any need to get so frustrated over if the movie fits the bill for Ambiguity and Vagueness... When at the end of the day both are just about interpretation. Some parts of the movie would fit the Ambiguous portion while some a Vague, while some others well... they just get you well and truly lost, but thats Lindeloff for you. Thing is though would everyone had wanted a spoon fed encounter? There are many spoon fed clues that as Lindeloff said give us answers, but these are vague so again not really spoon fed and the point he makes i think its not what we see but what we hear. We dont see any definitive proof this place was a Bio Weapons Plant, we do not see any definitive proof of a outbreak. The movie implies strongly that these are the case. But its the comments made by the cast, like Janeks "Weapons Facility and they Split something" and Shaws "there must have been some kind of outbreak and infection" These characters are ASSUMING. But its there assumptions that i assume Lindeloff means is giving us the answers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-13-2013 10:31 AM
The big question is..... Is it worth anyone getting upset over a debate, everyone has difference of opinion and its what makes us all unique and Human Beings.... Thank God, Spartacus ant a member anymore as well i am sure that would be a interesting debate..... Its never a case of one person has to be completely correct, some of us could be completely wrong with our views on the OP Topic, that does not mean we cant have our own opinion just as the OP can also. I think it all depends on how people express that opinion mind... ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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