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Alphas

Alphas

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Critters5

Nov-15-2017 7:56 AM

Do you guys think we will see the creators of the Engineers, whether it be Alphas or Elders? If so, what do you think or hope they will be like?

14 Responses to Alphas

ali81

Nov-15-2017 10:43 PM

would love to have a race above the engineers inserted into the franchise but theres no evidence yet there is a higher power. and I very much doubt wed get to see them anyway, wev had about 10 mins worth of engineers in 2 films and their the whole point of the prequel series being made in the first place so I wouldn't hold my breath

dk

Nov-15-2017 10:52 PM

I think the creators were the Elders in the tear drop shaped ship. There was evidence of their presence in the form of rock carvings and Big heads in the citidel in AC. Again, I am fine to leave it there and ambiguous. Will we see more? I think it is possible but would be minimal. It could even be in the form of trailers or teasers.

ali81

Nov-15-2017 11:37 PM

from what I took from Prometheus, I had the sacrificial engineer and the engineers in the tear drop ship to be a more religious sect of their civilisation and those on lv223 to be part of the military side.

Leto

Nov-16-2017 3:26 AM

Alphas is xenomorphs. They become technology-dependent and created Engineers and Humans for reproductive system. Engineers worshiped them (see the mural) and after the death of xenomorphs, tryed to ressurect them. But Engineers has fail and decided to "destroy for create" humans. This was the last attempt, but they has fail again.

 

Now the David want create the perfect live and helps (specially or not) to xenomorphs resurrection. And he have same fail again and again. David created a just monsters.

Critters5

Nov-16-2017 5:58 AM

ali81, Scott did say that the Engineers did not create man, so maybe that would be the Alphas etc? 

Critters5

Nov-16-2017 6:00 AM

Leto, that is interesting. What is your source? 

BigDave

Nov-16-2017 6:46 AM

@leto

Indeed this could well be something to be explored, the great thing about the Franchise and Ambiguity and how RS had Prometheus touch upon a connection to Ancient Religions and Mythos, is it really leaves it very open to who is at the Top of any Chain of Hierarchy, its one thing i had the biggest problem with focusing on a single Plot that covers this for my Prometheus 2 so i abandoned it.

As far as the Source for that Critters5 i think this is just a theory Leto has based on looking at the Mural, it can be interpreted in different ways, and mind is completely different.... And it appears the Xenomorph is but just a Bio-Weapon...... HOWEVER... 

If we look at the Mural intended for Alien...

This appears to connect somewhat to the Engineers being part of a Self Sacrifice to Procreate the Xenomorph, that appears to be created by the Ships themselves as if the Ships and Xenomorph are connected.  But alas this was Gigers idea for Alien, and things have moved on since that.

This HOWEVER does not mean this could be explored... the very Origins for Alien came from Star Beast, the Space Jockey was a Skeletal remains of a Giant Humanoid Race in that Story who happened to come across a world which had a Pyramid that contained left over Spores/Eggs of a long gone Alien Race, the Giant Humanoids had attempted to move these Spores to their ship and got infected and sent off a SOS/Warning.

The Spores/Eggs of the Star Beast, are the End/Start point of the Life-Cycle and these Organisms at one point had become a Civilization/Culture who required Sacrifices to Procreate their Species.  So maybe FOX/RS could go down the route that some Ancient Organism/Race are above the Engineers and these Organisms could be related to the Xenomorph but not exactly the same as the Xenomorph.

Certainly one route i was going to take, and tie things in to this idea meets HR Gigers idea, meets the Annunaki Tale Idea.  Also fits with Rebellion in other Mythos and Religions.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Cerulean Blue

Nov-16-2017 7:07 AM

@BigDave - The more I look at this mural, the more I think about some of the comments from H.R. Giger.  IMHO the biomechanical female strangely resembles an Engineer's Juggernaught ship.  The comment H.R. Giger once made was that the eggs were made by the ships.  I just thought it was interesting this came to mind, but something new comes to mind every time I gaze upon his works!  HAHA!!

BigDave

Nov-16-2017 7:38 AM

Regarding the Alphas.... the Elders if you would... a lot has evolved over time regarding the Engineers.

Alphas is a good name, as i would have tackled a True Origins Prequel with the Name Alien: Alpha

But back to the Engineers... the original idea's where TWO Fold... on one idea the Engineers were a Ancient Powerful Godlike Race, who looked different to the Engineers we had in Prometheus.   These earlier concepts were a bit bizarre.

As these Evolved they became more Human, until latter concepts we had them appear very Human only with some Roman Statue like Features and Bald.... However of note is HR Gigers Face Hugged Humanoids were also Bald.

The ideas at the time of Alien Engineers final draft, was these Engineers were pretty much similar to what we ended up with, only they was 15ft Tall, and they were a Ancient Race who had Genetically Evolved themselves to the point they could no longer Procreate, and they had to then find other methods to Procreate.

Prometheus basically kept this concept, only we see some older more frail looking Engineers who are to be known as the Elders, there was a bit of Dialog in the Sacrificial Scene, which we sadly never got to hear or see apart from a tiny snippet from the one Elder on the Blu-ray extras... where he says to the Sacrificial Engineer

"Let your body become the dirt. Your blood become the waters. And may your soul become their way back to us."

So the Sacrificial Scene had a great importance to the Engineers, it was needed.... 

Ridley Scott had mentioned after Prometheus that the Engineers could procreate in other ways, but the Sacrificial Scene was just how they chose to do it, and it would be like some Ancient Tribes, where a Sacrificial Offering is Chosen, and this Individual would be treated like a Prince for a year, and then they would be Sacrificed to the Gods for a Better Harvest etc.

So RS had informed us here that there is a very Religious/Ritualistic reason for the Sacrificial Scene.

Ridley had mentioned after Prometheus, regarding the removal of the Elders Scene, that he did not want to give to much away in the first movie, and to retain some Mystery and that he did not want to MEET God in the First Movie.

Ridley Scott also referred to the Engineers as Fallen Angels, he also said as far as David and Dr Shaw that they would be off to the Planet of the Engineers, but the beings they find are not GOD's (not in the traditional  sense) and that they are not Benevolent.

RS also a number of times referenced Paradise Lost when talking about the Engineers, this could be that the Engineers are referred to as Fallen Angels, because simply a connection to beings with Wicked/Sinister Motives.  But he could also be literally talking about other themes from Paradise Lost.

Thus indicating some kind of Fall of these Engineers, which could infer they had rebelled and gone against the Will/Intentions of either the rest of their Race, or their Hierarchy/Creators.

As RS announced Alien: Paradise Lost, he touched upon the Engineers again, and again Fallen Angels was mentioned and Paradise Lost, where RS said in that Poem the Fallen Angels are the ones who had the most Fun.  

He then mentioned about if the Engineers are the Forerunners to Mankind, then What/Who allowed for Worlds to be suitable for the Engineers to be able to seed in the first place.... were is the BIG GUY.... also mentioning and questioning was the Big Bang a Accident?

He then further added, that you have this ONE Guy who is very Hansom, goes to all the Parties and gets all the Girls, while you have another Guy who is not as Hansom and stays at home being boring.

This could indeed be a reference to the Fun and Frolics the Fallen Angels get up to in the Biblical Sense/Paradise Lost compared to their Angelic Counter-parts and GOD. Maybe this could imply their is a Hierarchy of beings above the Engineers and the Engineers are a Sub-creation in which some of them had become Rebellious and started to do things against the Will of the Hierarchy.

We then have the Name Change of Alien Covenant, and our movie does not delve into our Engineers much, only showing us that these beings David Bombards are more Human looking than the Engineers we saw in Prometheus and the Elders, maybe a Budget Oversight for the difference of appearance.

These beings seem to be kept in a very Ancient kind of Culture/Civilization they have Technology but its only used for essential things, and they pretty much live out primitive by comparison (with LV-223 Engineer) Lives.  Much like Buddhist Monks do on Earth.  

We do see the Cathedral Dome has some kind of Technology at the Top, and this is a Central place to these Engineers a place that during the Bombardment these beings attempted to run toward to escape the Carnage.  Inside this place maintains a very Ancient looking Aesthetic, with Giant Stone Carved Faces of beings who look like the Elder Engineers from Prometheus.   This place also has a giant Slab Table, which some on set had said had the look of a Sacrificial Table and even had a Sacrificial Blade on it.

Ridley Scott had referenced in regards to these Stone Faces, that they was the Wise Men (Ancient/Elders) they was the Apostles (representatives of a order/agenda) and Superior Beings (Superior to who? Engineers or Humans).   Another member of Production said these Stone Faces are the Hierarchy.

Yet we also see in AC Technology, we have the Hanger that was opening up and Davids Juggernaught was heading towards, we could assume this was to store Engineer Ships, then we saw the Docking Ship, Larger than the Juggernaught it appeared to be too large to fit in the Hanger and it appeared the Docking Ship arrived from a different location as the Hanger appeared to not long opened up for Davids Juggernaught.  (concept work shows the Docking Ship actually leaving this Hanger).

So there is Technology related to the LV-223 Engineers, the interesting thing is around this Hanger, are 4 Large Stone Sitting Engineer Statues, with what appears to be a Bowl or similar that they are holding, the pose and look of these are the same as the Buddhist Offering Statues.   Perhaps a Clue to the Purpose of this Place?

The deleted Scene and concept shows this Hanger Actually has another 3-4 Juggernauts inside.

Following the release of Alien Covenant, Ridley Scott has mentioned those beings on Planet 4 are actually Engineers and more so he referred them to the ORIGINAL Engineers... so does that mean the Prometheus ones are not the Originals?  Ridley Scott also said these beings lived for about 150 years.

The biggest surprise for AC has to be that these beings had Females, and they also had infants (David experimented with them)  So we have these beings on Planet 4, who seem to shun Technology that appears to be restricted to the Hanger surrounded by OFFERING Statues.   These beings are more Human looking, in complexion and eyes, and they have Male/Females and can Procreate.  They also live for 150 years.

And are the Original Engineers, but they are not the Hierarchy/Elders or Founders.

We have to ask why the Sacrificial Scene then?  Why do those Engineers in Prometheus look so different? If they are not the Original Ones, and we have seen the Elders Removed so their appearance is no longer Canon, well cant be take as Canon...   What we are left with is the Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 ones that appear to posses more Technology and look more Genetically Evolved.

Its a Far cry from the Original Concepts, and ideas of a Ancient Race who Evolved themselves past the point of Procreation who live for Thousands of years, but not being able to Procreate no more, had to find alternative ways to Create Life.

The only last Point to add to all of this which is what RS has confirmed... (all of the above) is that Engineers return to that Planet from time to time, and when they next return they discover the destruction that has befell those beings on Planet 4 at the hands of David and they surely wont be happy when they discover this.

This means some Engineers maybe go about going to different Worlds and Return to Planet 4 for some purpose and this is their Home-world... or it could be that Planet 4 is just One World that contains these beings and they have other Engineers who go World to World, and so have other Worlds like this

In Closing...  i would like to add that the Engineers Navigation System in Prometheus had other Galaxies and so this Race certainly is not contained within the small confines of a Explored Universe in Alien Franchise where LV-223/426 System and Planet 4 are by no means vastly far apart in context to the Technology of Space Travel at the time of ALIEN.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Critters5

Nov-16-2017 7:54 AM

Bigdave, the starbeast plot is so much more interesting :*(

Critters5

Nov-16-2017 8:02 AM

So it sounds like the Engineer story is a jumbled mess. 

BigDave

Nov-16-2017 8:27 AM

Indeed its been a case of constantly changing the Plot and ideas over and over and over.

HR Giger had some great ideas, Sadly he is no longer here to brainstorm for them, also rumors are that FOX was unable to make a deal with the HR Giger Estate as far as Bio-Mechanical Giger Aesthetic, but i cant see that being a reason why the Xenomorph looked a bit different, because if it was down to IMAGE Rights then the Eggs, Face Hugger and Xenomorph in AC are so close to those in Alien that this should not be any problem... however the apparent Problem with the Giger Estate is around other designs that are influenced by his Aesthetic in that Dane Hallet had wanted to work on some very HR Giger Atheistic to some designs but was told he could not.. by FOX for some reason.

They could have considered consulting Dan O'Bannon too but he also Sadly Passed away, and so i think all we are left with now is where Ridley Scott, and  maybe David Giler and Walter Hill would want to take this as far as ideas.. But Ultimately i think its FOX Executives who cast the Final Yes/No to ideas.

Giler and Hill's input with Alien was mainly regarding the introduction of AI, and Ridley Scott is more a Fan of Space 2001 and also Blade Runner type Themes.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Critters5

Nov-16-2017 8:53 AM

Wow that's crazy about the rights. Giger is the Alien series to me and without those aesthetics I have little interest in the future of the series. 

BigDave

Nov-16-2017 4:01 PM

Indeed the Aesthetic that HR Giger brought to the Table, is what made the Alien and Derelict/Space Jockey so unique and surreal without HR Gigers designs we could have ended up with another Generic B Movie Space Horror.  I do think O'Bannon needs credit for the idea and the Life-Cycle.. 

I think without O'Bannons unique Alien Life Form idea, and the Aesthetic to its design that HR Giger gave us, then Alien would never had been as iconic, regardless of who ever else worked on it.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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