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Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel

The Alien: Covenant, Alien: Awakening & Prometheus Movie Community

The Alien is NOT cooked - a Scified editorial!

The Alien is NOT cooked - a Scified editorial!

Prior to Prometheus' release in 2012 fans, general audiences, and critics were praising the return of Sir Ridley Scott to the Alien franchise with Prometheus, the first movie in a planned series of prequels to the 1979 classic which the veteran British director had helped create. The grand imagery released through the marketing for the movie, the grand themes proposed in the movie's synopsis, the overwhelming investment from the studio, and an impressive cast of character actors created high expectations that Prometheus would be an epic science fiction movie that would explore the dark mythology of one of Hollywood's most iconic, prolific and creative intellectual properties. Sadly, despite Prometheus' nightmarishly beautiful visuals and grand mythological themes, poor characterization outside of the central cast, poorly advised editing, and evident changes in narrative direction throughout production resulted in a movie that at best, polarized opinion.

Initially written by Jon Spaihts, Prometheus was to be a direct prequel to Alien, with the events being set on LV-426, the Engineer dome/pyramid containing Ovomorphs (Xenomorph eggs), and the Juggernaut crashing when it's lone pilot gave birth to a Xenomorph gestating within its chest. However, during pre-production of the movie Damon Lindelof was hired to add a sense of ambiguity to the narrative. As such, the events were migrated to LV-426's neighboring moon LV-223, while the Xenomorph was transformed into a nondescript liquid (known as the Black Pathogen) that mutated anything it contaminated with traits of the Xenomorph, with its precursor, the Deacon, marking the creatures only appearance in the movie. The movies narrative direction away from the Xenomorph and instead toward the reimagined Space Jockeys; the Engineers, was to allow the mythology to explore grander themes beyond those of a movie monster that had, in Scott's eyes become derivative and tired; overcooked.

Paradise, the originally planned sequel to Prometheus was to explore the themes and mythology of its predecessor by following surviving characters David (Michael Fassbender) and Dr. Elizabeth Shaw (Noomi Rapace) on their proposed quest for absolution and resolution, moving the franchise even farther away from the iconic creature of the Xenomorph. Proposed to be a nightmarish reimagining of the Wizard of Oz using the design aesthetic of H. R. Giger, with narrative elements from Dante Alighieri's epic poem The Divine Comedy and John Milton's Paradise Lost, Paradise promised to be one of the most important movies in the history of science fiction cinema. Sadly, the overwhelming popularity of negativity towards Prometheus narrative decision to exclude the Xenomorph from the proposed series of Alien prequels led to Twentieth Century Fox and director Scott reimagining Paradise into Alien: Covenant; a sequel to Prometheus which would instead heavily feature the Xenomorph, and similar creatures. Another change in narrative direction, this decision was executed not to appease the fans that called for the Xenomorphs return, but rather despite them.

Scott reintroduced the Xenomorph in Alien: Covenant in an exercise of arrogance, to prove his prior statement that the 'beast was cooked'. Scott intentionally designed Covenants narrative and the creatures featured therein to adhere to established tropes and behavioral traits. This is evident from Scott's recent statements that he was 'ahead of the curve', and from the way in which the creature is under-utilized within the movie, of which fans, audiences, and critics have cited as overly-referential. Together with Covenants middling performance in theaters this summer, Fox and Scott have used the movie to push for yet another change in narrative direction for Alien Covenant's sequel, which is said to focus on the character of David, the dangers of AI and themes of identity and existence, despite calls from fans, audiences and critics alike that these narrative beats were explored and executed beautifully in Denis Villeneuve's sequel to Scott's 1982 science fiction noir classic Blade Runner; Blade Runner 2049, also released this summer.

For over forty years Sir Ridley Scott has proven to be one of Hollywood's greatest directors, able to create epic visuals and landscapes using a combination of groundbreaking advances in computer-generated imagery and well established practical effects. Together with having helped birth the Alien franchise with its creator Dan O'Bannon (and Ronald Shussett), artists H. R. Giger and Ron Cobb, and producers David Giler, Walter Hill, and Gordon Carroll, Scott has been afforded by studio Twentieth Century Fox virtual free reign and omnipotence in regards to the Alien franchise and its future, both within the confines of his series of prequels and extending outwardly towards any possible sequels. This became no more apparent when Neill Blomkamp's proposed sequel, titled Alien: Awakening was dropped by Fox despite the studio's reported support for the project following an overwhelmingly positive response from fans to the concept artwork released by Blomkamp. Considering that Deadpool was greenlit based on a similar response to released test footage, Fox's 'change of heart' against Blomkamp's project and Scotts acquisition of its title for his planned sequel to Alien: Covenant, together with Covenant's intentionally derivative portrayal of its titular antagonist highlights the influence the director has attained within the studio.

Claiming his vision to be definitive, Ridley Scott is using his belief that the iconic antagonist is 'cooked' to use the Alien franchise he 'helped' create to explore themes that should be complimenting the creature, not replacing it. Fans loyal to Scott continue to support the directors 'beast is cooked' comments by debating that the sexually violent connotations of the Alien and its effectivity as an on-screen antagonist were lost following the release of the 1986 sequel Aliens, directed by James Cameron, which reportedly reduced the 'murderous thief' of the first movie into a horde of mindless bugs. This is in contradiction to the influence Aliens has had on science fiction as a whole since its release. However, subsequent additions to the Alien franchise have seen the creature reduced to cannon fodder, with character concepts introduced in 1979 being squabbled over and retconned, as evidenced by AvP and Prometheus' misaligning origins for its corporate villain, Weyland Industries.

Scott's comments on the creatures viability has seen platforms such as Scified, AvP Galaxy, Mr. H Reviews, and Hybrid Network questioning whether or not the Alien franchise has a future beyond that of Scott's constantly contradictory series of prequels. While it is true that Blomkamp's sequel would have ultimately served only to appease fans of Cameron's aforementioned sequel Aliens, the future of the franchise no more lies with Scott's imaginings of its past than it did with Sigourney Weaver's prolific portrayal of Ripley. The central character of any Alien movie should be the Alien itself, the Xenomorph, which is no more 'cooked' than any other antagonist in any other franchise. Ironically it is Scott himself that highlighted the direction the franchise should take with his comments regarding the creature in Alien: Covenant's pre-release marketing. This has been proven time and again across other franchises which have reinvented their core characters and introduced new characters to exceed and circumvent the expectations of audiences, such as Robert Patricks menacing T-1000 in Terminator 2: Judgment Day, or Bill Skarsgard's delightfully disturbed Pennywise the Clown in Andy Muchietti's IT.

What the Alien franchise needs is a reminder of why we fell in love with the franchise in the first place; through a portrayal of the Xenomorph that moves away from the animalistic scuttlings of previous depictions towards that which was inferred but never depicted in the original movie; a malicious, cruel and murderous creature with intent and intelligence. With the right director and production team, such a reinvigorated antagonist set amidst a narrative backdrop that expands the universe within which it is set, and explores new themes and characters previously unseen would prove that the Xenomorph as an antagonist is far from 'cooked' and that the franchise can propagate without the need to pamper to Ridley, Ripley or Cameron fans.

 

Sadly with Scott's grip on the franchise seeming to ever tighten while drifting away from the core concepts that made it so iconic it is highly unlikely that a true 'Alien' movie will be developed any time in the near future.

If you're a fan of Alien / Prometheus and would like to discuss Alien: Covenant and its upcoming sequel with other like-minded fans, be sure to join in our forum! Ranked the #1 Prometheus forum back in 2012 and reigning as the web's top Alien: Covenant fan site, it's a great place to discuss the upcoming Prometheus sequels, dissect details from every trailer and engage with other fans just like you.

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79 Fan responses to The Alien is NOT cooked - a Scified editorial!

joylitt

Nov-11-2017 2:38 PM

Of course it'snot cooked! And the AI angle will get overcooked much faster than the xenomorph (I am actually already tired of it)

dk

Nov-11-2017 2:58 PM

Neither the Alien nor the AI need be cooked if more emphasis is put on the rest of the cast. Except for a couple characters in the last two movies, the rest have been pretty forgettable. The Quadrilogy was much better in that aspect.

joylitt

Nov-11-2017 3:21 PM

I totally agree with this article. It is time to stop sending confusing messages. AI should be in the flanks and not take center stage. The alien itself is what we are here for.

joylitt

Nov-11-2017 3:25 PM

"Scott reintroduced the Xenomorph in Alien: Covenant in an exercise of arrogance, to prove his prior statement that the 'beast was cooked'."

GAVIN Do you really think that this was the case? Or it was just a half ass attempt at using the beast because he does not believe in it. I mean you really think he deliberately tried to cook the xenomorph?

IRaptus

Nov-11-2017 4:26 PM

I think he put in the xenomorph because he was told too, because its what Fox thought the Fanboys wanted, hence his statement "If they want Aliens i'll give them f$&king Aliens."

That's why the third act was so lacklustre and rushed, because Scott didn't have the passion or even want that encounter in this film. Perhaps he arrogantly did the bare minimum with that scene to satisfy the studio, but undercooked it enough knowing it would cop criticism to prove the studio wrong about rushing the beast back in? 

dk

Nov-11-2017 7:46 PM

Give me a cast to care about and be able able to relate to. If that happens, it doesn't matter much to me what else happens. Maybe it is too much to expect for a movie and can be done better as a mini series....sorry, I will step off the soap box.

hardboiled

Nov-11-2017 7:56 PM

Bishop and Ash were brilliant robots. David seems a bit flat character wise; that's why I'm not keen on him.

(part 2 )

Everything Scott does goes through the studio, and what you read is what the press says and makes up. I'm pretty sure he doesn't see himself as some kind of messiah. He's a director with influence but trust me he can't just demand $150m and walk off into the sunset,a whole studio of exec will go over scripts and ideas with a magnifying glass before making him sign on what they say is a good idea.

ScorpioStar

Nov-11-2017 9:38 PM

It's clear that the author of this "editorial" is a Cameron person who needs just another bug hunt to feel happy again.

red0guy

Nov-11-2017 11:17 PM

Good riddance mr Xeno! In humble opinion what both Covenant and BR2049 lacked, and severely was originality. I've yet to see something what that Michael Green fellow was involved to be original. Some might be good, but c'mon even Logan is a Shane remake. We have formulas and cliches, enough with them. Yes we have a new 80s nostalgia on us, reusing themes and motifs but I've yet to find something that impresses me. I liked season 1 of Stranger things, was indifferent to IT (which I thought was Stranger things with Floki from vikings as an antagonist), and kind of disliked season 2. 

I dislike the new Star Trek show, not because of continuity or because I'm right wing bigot, but because in 8 episodes it ripped of Alien, Dune and Groundhog Day.

The first 2 Alien movies (well the most interesting pieces of the second one in the extended cut, well at least for me) were unique because of the innovations the brought to the table (as did BR 82), but now they only cope the imitators.

Commercially speaking, maybe now would have been a great time for a xenomorph revival, but that would not make something unique. As for AI revolt, can't we get something new? For 100 years now that we have the term robot, his main activity is to revolt against his human masters.

I'll skip the latest the new nostalgia snoozefest which is Star Wars ep 8 and wait for Alex Garland's Annihilation.

Sharkman

Nov-12-2017 12:48 AM

In my opinion as a HUGE Alien franchise fan, my disappointment lies with Ridley Scott. Although I enoyed both Prometheus and Alien: Covenant, they didnt feel fully fleshed out. They have some incredible themes on creation/destruction but they miss out on the empathy and character development which we all enjoy in our movies. The beast itself is definitely not cooked. What is lacking is a cohesive and compelling story that takes its time to sink its teeth into us and then apply gut-wrenching pressure to characters we actually care something about. Add a taste of REALISTIC action rather than b-horror dumbass character decisions and we may actually find a movie that we love to watch. Taking Neil Blomkamp off Alien was a monumental failure to recognize a visionary new director's potential to revitalise the franchise. Therefore, it is my opinion that Ridley Scott is indeed the one that is cooked, but not the amazing chestburster baby that exploded partly from his imagination almost 40 years ago...

joylitt

Nov-12-2017 1:21 AM

The problem is the characters don't feel authentic. For some reason, starting in Prometheus, the writers started to create characters that seem more like whimsical caricatures, and you can notice that clearly not only on both prequels, but also in the viral videos. It is beyond me why Ridley Scott thinks that this is the correct approach for human characters in the franchise.

MonsterZero

Nov-12-2017 5:04 AM

Well....Here is a chance to write a synopses  / outline of a uncooked Xeno plot. I'd like to read them.

 

95% of the Alien franchise is humans talking to synths / AI's.....then a Xeno appears.

 

 

Leto

Nov-12-2017 5:15 AM

ScorpioStar

"It's clear that the author of this "editorial" is a Cameron person who needs just another bug hunt to feel happy again."

 

Agree. If Alien is cooked - it was with Cameron's ALIENS-bugs. We need the invulnerable to standard weapons xenomorph like as in Alien: Isolation. The Star Beast who can't be killed. And with biomechanical design of course.

 

 

Gavin

Nov-12-2017 6:48 AM

@ ScorpioStar & Leto

"It's clear that the author of this "editorial" is a Cameron person who needs just another bug hunt to feel happy again."

You could not be farther from the truth. On average the Alien works better as a lone antagonist than it does as an overwhelming horde. Alien, Alien 3, and Alien Isolation all proved this, while the only movie that respectfully portrayed the Xenomorph as a super-organism was Aliens. Resurrection, both AvP movies, and a plethora of licensed video games simply portrayed the Alien as cannon fodder, mindless bugs.

Personally, I would like to see a lone Alien facing off against heavily armed protagonists, and win through its use of cruelty, intelligence, and malicious intent. I would like to see these 'Mercenaries' hunted, tortured, and violated by what they perceive to be a mere creature. This dynamic has never been explored, in the Alien franchise at least.

As for AI, I couldn't care less. I always felt the addition of Ash and Bishop as needlessly derivative, stemmed from an over-abundance of science fiction movies from the 60's and 70's that relied heavily on the narrative beat of the corporate-conspiracy (Demon Seed, Soylent Green, Logans Run, Rollerball etc.).

MonsterZero

Nov-12-2017 7:16 AM

It's a sad ending to a promising creature. Aliens turned it into a drone/bug...something the colonial soldiers were/are well aware of.  No one in the Alien series has declared: 'We've found another intelligent life form!!'... No, it's just a bug.... Xeno's probably can't operate a golf cart, let alone a starship....Their not going to invade Earth or seek out humans to terrorize ....All the stories are going to be: Space truckers/ Explorers/Soldiers stumble upon a nasty creature/pod in a cave/derelict spaceship.

 

 

I would have liked the ending of A L I E N to be:    Ripley being dragged into space by the star beast........... trying to scream.... but .... no one to hear her...'slow fade'

ScorpioStar

Nov-12-2017 8:27 AM

@MonsterZero

Perfect!

MonsterZero

Nov-12-2017 9:20 AM

It's the worlds biggest secret!........that everyone in the world is in on!

Eggs = Facehugger + humans = Xenomorph.

How can you write anything when everyone knows the outcome!?

Need BigDave in here to get me off the roof!! Talk me out of jumping! LOL!

MonsterZero

Nov-12-2017 9:25 AM

un-cooking the star beast. my quick attempt:

 

   A team of explorers land on LV 1335. They find a network of caves. The floor of the one of the enormous caves is littered with thousands of petrified eggs. Many of the eggs are massive, 20 meters in height, some pods have opened, but no signs of what was in side.


One of the team knocks over one of the smaller pods and a small little snake like creature scurries away( jump scare scene).


Two kilometers from the entrance, is a large(100 meters) door........it has been forced open and lays ajar. Drones are sent through the giant doors, but the video is scrambled and none of the drones return.


Being 'explorers' the team decide to enter the door...It's a long slippery slope downwards....one of the crew slips and smashes his/her helmet...too dangerous to continue they send 2 back to the ship for climbing equipment...the others wait just outside the door.


They find the drones destroyed near the bottom of the slope...they start finding large humanoids(Engineers)in space suits(different from Prometheus)..these are really large.


Team has to decide whether to turn back.Big argument! Everything is old and dead......no danger?


Deciding to press on..the team enters a really large chamber with thousands of caskets containing 30 meter humanoid creatures...Tomb of the Space Jockeys...


To be continued.....OR please some one pick this up from where i left it!! Where did the flahes come from...were the Engineers tomb raiding??

Even this is hard to write!! So many cliches and a tired plot! ARRGH!!

Michelle Johnston

Nov-12-2017 10:58 AM

Gavin

Your post of the 12th November is the important one. Anyone can pronounce the "Beast Isn't Cooked' the really important question and answer from said question is how do you serve it up fresh. 

Your idea that you move in close and explore its behavioural tics and what they mean in much more detail and in the way it antagonises the protagonists feels like development.

Now the next question would be is the broader non fanbase elements that make the movie a financial success  interested. No idea, but to me to expose the beasts narrative of punishment, rape and subjugation to further examination whilst fresh is of no interest to me and puts it on the level of my interest in Davids interest in subjugating his victims to punishment rape and subjugation to create his Queen.

For me that is a glorification of wickedness and dysfunctional behaviour which is akin to wanting to sit in on the dreams of the mental ill.   

 

Michelle Johnston

Nov-12-2017 11:03 AM

What made ALIEN wonderful is we had no idea it was simply its effect on the magnificent seven that was enthralling in it innovation, ever since then people have essentially tried to do it bigger make Ripley the Alien or try and fit it into a mythos so in a sense doing the opposite of what you want contextualise its behaviour rather than expand on it.

ScorpioStar

Nov-12-2017 11:09 AM

@MonsterZero

I can't help you with your plot, but I can give you a hint - as you see, I come from a planet visited by the Engineers (they were far more creative back then). I can read, type, wipe out any kind of life (armed-to-the teeth Marines included), be sarcastic now and then and, I can assure you, conducting vehicles of any kind is not a problem.

 

ScorpioStar

Nov-12-2017 11:29 AM

 And if you're wondering what else the Enginners were up to before their most acclaimed bug, check with a humanoid called Damon Hellandbrand - apparently, he sees us in his dreams...

MonsterZero

Nov-12-2017 1:44 PM

@ScorpioStar I Like that beast...but it looks very big and I'm not sure it would fit in a Starship(human type)?!

That's one of the problems with Cameron's Queen Xeno.....If Ripley, Newt and Bishop had walked down the hallway or entered their cabins they would have been safe from the Queen! She could only roam in a the big load bay..worthless without her drones.

I suppose your beast also has smaller soldier drones?

ScorpioStar

Nov-12-2017 2:09 PM

@MonsterZero

I don't know anything about drones, but you should see our babies... They're so small and smart and so HUNGRY! They eat anything and everything all the time! Then again, how can you expect infants to grow huge and strong and smart if they don't eat?

Jonnysokko

Nov-12-2017 3:53 PM

It is my belief that fox did not want to pay Giger again for the alien main character  design on Prometheus..... so they concocted the prequel as a way to reboot the franchise without spending a ton of money... then after his death felt it was safe to go back and negotiate new terms with the current license holder.

I'd be interested to hear the story from that side if anyone has any info.

 

I'v worked in the film industry for over 20 years and I've seldom seen a decision made solely for artistic reasons that didn't have dollar signs factored in.

Jonnysokko

Nov-12-2017 4:05 PM

I believe Ridley Scott is ruining his legacy as he's clearly out of touch with his audience and what these movies have become.... it's not the artistic statement that it once was in the late 70's early 80's where the studio hadn't fully (believed to) figure out a tried and true franchise template to operate by.

Hollywood is run by accountants and number people without creativity. Sadly, you'd have to have much more fight in you than Scott has to attempt to develop characters or tell story in today' cinema..... those things don't carry well to foreign markets like explosions and action do.

joylitt

Nov-12-2017 4:54 PM

Jonnysokko I think the copyright issue is more apparent in "Alien: Covenant" than in "Prometheus". I read an interview with conceptual artist Dane Hallett where he states he was disappointed that Fox's legal department prevented him to use certain biomechanic looking designs for Elizabeth Shaw and David's experiments, and that is why his designs ended looking more than victorian medical drawings. I don't think it would cost Fox so much to acquire the rights to use HR Giger's Necronomicon; it's just they decided to spend the money on other things.

Jonnysokko

Nov-12-2017 5:07 PM

I admit I haven't seen the last alien film at all except for stills of the alien.... Prometheus was enough to make me stop spending money on that.

Even dollar theater viewings and industry screenings haven't interested me in any of these blockbuster franchises.

 

Although I do have a free screening date to see Blade runner and the negative press interests me almost enough to see it.

But I know it won't cut muster story wise.

dk

Nov-12-2017 6:55 PM

Alien would have been a totally forgettable movie without solid characters. Scary monster? Check. How the characters deal with it? Check. Characters you actually care about? Check.

Prometheus and AC- Monsters- Check. How characters deal- stupid! Characters you care about- David and Daniels for different reasons. Everyone else was forgettable.

red0guy

Nov-12-2017 9:07 PM

dk

Sorry I don't agree with what you say. The stupidity of characters was there in the Alien franchise from day one. Kane poking the egg, Parker's stereotypical obsession about being paid, chase the cat and getting killed, smart indeed. As for likable characters, I liked Lambert the most because her fate (rape and murder). In my eyes Ripley was just as bitchy as Shaw, she becomes much more likable in Aliens (so thank Cameron 4 that).

In Prometheus there is only 4 monster encounters, and why the exception of Fifield were dealt with reasonably. And I'll take Janek over Dallas every day.

As for Covenant I cared more a dead then anybody else. Daniels? She is a joke, a Ripley-lite. David became just another space nazi robot.

St.Anger

Nov-12-2017 9:07 PM

Actually, it's quite simple to understand that the beast is not cooked,

All the approaches that have been made after the first movie have only disrespected him, and unlike what many think, is not just about the characters.

The xenomorph represents a murderous beast, this is true, but not any beast, but a psychopath.
That's why the first movie works so well, if you replace the xenomorph with any human being this one would kill one by one the crew of the ship, like a common assassin terrorizing everyone because you do not know when he will attack and you are in a reduced and claustrophobic place, he would be exactly like a beast. But Alien is not that, once you separate these elements from the character you stay with its psychological traits, he is not only a murderer, he is a psychopath, he lacks empathy, emotions or susceptibility, his levels of intelligence and rage are immensely high, he is calculating, his mental processes are totally ruined, he is a deranged killer who does not attack directly but studies his victims in an insane way, he is a sexual depraved, only his high violent behavior satisfies his mental need to dominate his victims, rape, murder, dismember them and get drunk with pleasure while doing it. To this we add what already know:
200 lbs of pure murderous power, an extraordinary agility, resistance and strenght from another world, supernatural adaptation, a set of weapons at his disposal that nobody else counts.

I'm surprised that this has been forgotten for so long. These disturbed psychological traits of a Xenomorph are as interesting as artificial intelligence. I hope that one day justice will be done, because as we go, we will end up with another Cameron bug hunt. and Ridley ... to say that the beast is cooked ... I admire and everything ... but respectfully, fu... the only thing cooked is your closed mind, that can not appreciate the beauty of what Giger created and is far more profound and interesting than any other pseudo-religious creationist theme.

IRaptus

Nov-13-2017 1:05 AM

Red0guy i ask you this though.

If you were any one of the crew from the original film, facing the same circumstances, would you have done anything different?

Kane wanted his own command, he took a risk at a big discovery to get that. Dallas went into the air-ducts alone because he was in damage control; he was a man with a chequered career on his last chance, and he'd just F'ed up. Lambert would do anything to get herself out of trouble. Brett was the junior engineers whose job was to do as his told and help fix things. Someone said find the cat to help the tracker work better - thats what he did.

Most of their mistakes were selfish and self-serving errors of judgement by damaged and weak characters, and that got them killed. 

Now fast track to Covenant. And you have Captains, XOs, and scientific staff - professional and vigorously screened and tested personnel (see Phobos clip), making blatantly poor decisions that go against everything they were trained for. Oram disregarding mission objectives was as bad as the Titanic taking a detour lol...and just as catastrophic 

 

IRaptus

Nov-13-2017 1:22 AM

Dallas was generally quite laid-back as Captain, although Brett and Parker's continued insistence that they receive higher pay seemed to annoy him. He was also averse to making decisions, a flaw he himself acknowledged and cited as the reason he was merely in charge of a commercial tug as opposed to a more impressive position aboard a space liner. When forced into a decision, Dallas seemed prone to making rushed, unwise choices under pressure, most glaringly when he allowed Kane and the Facehugger back on board the Nostromo in violation of standard quarantine protocols — a move that ultimately doomed the crew. Similarly, he opted to leave LV-426 before the Nostromo was fully repaired, leaving the crew without vital surveillance systems that they could have used to track the Alien.

Source: The Weyland-Yutani Report, ADF's Alien Novelisation 

red0guy

Nov-13-2017 1:42 AM

IRaptus

Sorry I have never read any novelisations, so I cannot combat that. But then why not explain the crew's actions from covenant's novelisation?

I can argue only what is only in the movies. I don't even know when Phobos was conceived in regards to the movies script so that's that for continuity. 

red0guy

Nov-13-2017 1:46 AM

 And Oram worst scene is believing a crazed android, which he called the Devil, and instead of shooting him on the spot he followed in the cellar to reenact the biblical man's fall from heaven, an overtly forced metaphor.

Gavin

Nov-13-2017 1:54 AM

It is interesting that despite the movie and franchise being named Alien, the comments have sidelined into the characterizations of the human cast in the original versus those of the prequels.

In the original the only character that is not one dimensional is Ash. Regardless of your opinions of the other characters, their characterization was poor at best. Take Dallas as an example. Being the captain of the Nostromo he should NOT have led the expedition team, that was the second in commands job; Kane. He should not have ordered Lambert on the team either, should anything had befallen her they would have been marooned. As such the expedition team should have been Kane, Ripley, and Ash. Following his complete disregard for well-known command protocols (have they not watched Star Trek) Dallas, having put Kane, and subsequently the crews lives at risk then ignores protocol again heading into the air ducts, instead of ordering Ripley to investigate the ducts, as she was the only expendable crewmate at that point.

As for Ripley, she was a bitch in the first movie, a character stereotype that is usually the first to die in such movies. Her only positive development was in Aliens when her maternal nature opened her up emotionally to Hicks, Newt and us the audience. But in Alien 3 her deflated submission to her inevitable fate, while plausible was against her character as a survivor.

For me, the best characters throughout the franchise have been Ripley, Ash, Hudson, Vasquez, Clemens, Dillon, Golic, Johner, Vriess, Janek, Shaw, David (Prometheus, not Covenant), and Tennessee.

In addition to Dallas, I found Daniels to be a Ripley-lite, Newt was way too screamy, Burke was too obvious, Fifield and Milburn were just dumb (as was Holloway) and Parker was just Yaphet Kotto. But the worst travesty is the whole Walter/David dynamic, and the praise it gets. The so-called twist at the end of Covenant was obvious the moment we knew Fassbender was gonna be portraying multiple roles. In What Happened To Monday Noomi Rapace plays seven identical sisters, each with noticeably different characters, and without the use of any accent trickery, completely outshining Michael Fassbender's performance.

red0guy

Nov-13-2017 2:27 AM

Gavin

Well, What happened to Monday was more or less a shitty movie single-handedly pulled out off the dirt by Rapace. I completely agree with you on the characters, but I would rather have something new in the Alien Universe (hopefully not a new monster), not the Xenomorph done right.

Critters5

Nov-13-2017 5:30 AM

Perfectly said, great editorial! 

Michelle Johnston

Nov-13-2017 7:42 AM

St.Anger

The xenomorph represents a murderous beast, this is true, but not any beast, but a psychopath.

That's why the first movie works so well, if you replace the xenomorph with any human being this one would kill one by one the crew of the ship, like a common assassin terrorizing everyone because you do not know when he will attack and you are in a reduced and claustrophobic place, he would be exactly like a beast. But Alien is not that, once you separate these elements from the character you stay with its psychological traits, he is not only a murderer, he is a psychopath, he lacks empathy, emotions or susceptibility, his levels of intelligence and rage are immensely high, he is calculating, his mental processes are totally ruined, he is a deranged killer who does not attack directly but studies his victims in an insane way, he is a sexual depraved, only his high violent behavior satisfies his mental need to dominate his victims, rape, murder, dismember them and get drunk with pleasure while doing it. To this we add what already know:
200 lbs of pure murderous power, an extraordinary agility, resistance and strength from another world, supernatural adaptation, a set of weapons at his disposal that nobody else counts.

Another attempt to shine a light on his behavioural tics. Why on earth would a grown up audience (the original audience I represent) be interested  in "These disturbed psychological traits of a Xenomorph are as interesting....". This is science fiction where we use a secondary world to tell us more about ourselves. If I want a study of psychopathy as a rational intelligent human being I want to know how it works and where it comes from. The only intelligent way you can apply that to the A L I E N of 1979 is how did such a creature come about not get in so close you become a voyeur to unspeakable cruelty once removed as science fiction and invest a special effect with far to much gravitas. The only way to make the ALIEN interesting unless your celebrating its instincts is why, where and how. Ridley knew that as a well rounded human being, its just he forgot the franchise has a substantial fanbase which finds gratification in the power of violence rather than the power of understanding violence.  

At least this thread is revealing a rather unwholesome truth that whilst what made the first film special was its element of surprise as horror entertainment, which was essentially innocent, because the audacity was in the surprise, some people actually want to stop and glorify that curiosity of 1978 and grow it ugh.Thank god for Ripley and her sacrifice which is where the future story should have always stopped.  

     

BigDave

Nov-13-2017 8:07 AM

@Gavin

Your last post is a excellent view on the subject matter, and with these kinds of movies, (Horror Based) it requires people to make bad choices to bring around the Plot, they are Plot Devices to drive the Plot and Ultimately if it was not for the well written inclusion of ASH, (and Special Order 937) then  we would not have had the same Alien movie.....  as Ripely would have prevented the Alien from getting on-board.

I think the Franchise has suffered with how Characters are used for sure, Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 worked well, but Alien R, Prometheus and Alien Covenant they all appeared to only be there to Drive the Plot.  The Franchise is in a bit of trouble not only just because the Beast is Cooked or Not,  as even doing a sequel that has no Xenomorphs, could still end up being another Cooked Alien movie.

The Xenomorph is kind of cooked, this is thanks to how it was handled in the latter Movies (Alien R, AVP movies) and Video Games etc, everyone had seen the Xenomorph over and over and it was now portrayed as some Alien Organism that basically had a Agenda to Procreate, and so much like some Deadly Larger Hive Organism that when goes on the loose can lead to disaster for the native Worlds Lifeforms..

I think the Changes they made with Prometheus from Alien Engineers was to explore the REASONS behind such a Parasitic, Invasive Species that could be used a a Ultimate Extermination Tool...  To explore and give some Sinister Reason and Agenda behind why would any one CREATE such a thing, rather than it being something that was Natural.  Ridley Scott has further explored this by now having it that our own Agenda to Sub-create and Create our own Artificial/Synthetic Life-forms and how we then treat these said Life-Forms who we have created as superior...  has lead one of these Creations to Dable and Experiment and Create such a Horrific Beast and then its now about DAVIDS intentions and Reasons for the Creation and what he plans on doing with it.

I think this is more what RS is trying to explore now... the Reasons behind such a Beast, rather than showing the Beast...

I think the Beast has another Round or Two in it, and so did Ridley Scott in the build up to Alien Covenant, even suggesting that the Franchise has to be about HIM (the Xenomorph) and how we can Evolve Him, but it always has to be about the Beast. Leading to him pondering if Prometheus was a mistake in Hindsight, which seems to be that the Xenomorph should have been more linked.

The Beast is kind of Cooked, and its a case now of being very Careful, because if you try and bring the Beast into it too much and done the wrong way then the Beast becomes CREMATED  I feel the Problem is HOW the Beast had been Portrayed, yes Alien explored the Beast in a different manner, and Aliens then evolved this into a more Bug like Parasite.

Alien did start from STAR-BEAST where our Beast was a Creature that would grow to be more than just a Killing Machine, but as the Franchise Evolved, Changes are made and the Changes that became ALIEN did set up that this Creature was a Bio-Logical Warfare.    Camerons Ideas evolved this so that the Beasts Life-Cycle is now similar to a Invasive Species of Insect type Organism, that could be used as a ideal Bio-Weapon.  So as of Aliens it was like the Humans in say Star Ship Troopers, being caught in a War with another Alien Race... lets say Klingon's or Predators lol  and these Humans use Eggs of the Star Ship Trooper Bugs to Eradicate the Klingon/Predator Home-worlds...  That in a Nut-shell is what our Xenomorph had become.

A Bio-Weapon, The Prequels had attempted to address this by showing us these Bio-Weapons were not just something found, they was Genetically Engineered and Created to Serve this Purpose and be used against HUMANITY because of the things we have done and way we have acted against this Bio-Weapons Creator.

so Sadly when ever we look at the Xenomorph it is just a Created Bio-Weapon, that could get out of control and set up its own Hive Network,  the Ideas behind this Organism that STAR-BEAST was trying to cover are Sadly something we maybe CANT and SHOULD NOT Resurrect

However..... The Xenomorph Pathogen had its Origins... exploring this could open up Doors to something Fresh that is not some Natural Parasite, or Genetically Engineered one.

ULTIMATELY is difficult how they can explore a few more movies centered around the Xenomorph, as its been set in STONE now to be a Engineered Bio-Weapon Invasive Parasitic Organism and nothing more.

BigDave

Nov-13-2017 8:37 AM

@Michelle

Indeed your hitting the Nail on the Head, if i am correct in reading into what you mean that is... and that like i stated in my previous post,  no matter what the Franchise has shown us the Xenomorph is a Purposely Created/Engineered  Bio-Weapon, that will eradicate a Worlds Populace by becoming a Parasitic Invasive Species, they will infect the Life on a World, using it as Hosts to Procreate its kind and thats it.   Trying to explore these Organisms as going on to Evolve as a Civilization by itself could be something to explore, but while this may seem fresh, it has the potential to be a disaster and take away from the Simplistic and Horrific means of a Organism that has only instincts to Procreate its species.

The exploring of WHY such a Bio-Weapon was created is therefore more interesting.

ULTIMATELY it is difficult how they can explore a few more movies centered around the Xenomorph, as its been set in STONE now to be a Engineered Bio-Weapon Invasive Parasitic Organism and nothing more.

How do they cover the Xenomorph without it being cooked... maybe be Re-inventing the idea a little and making them more Sinister and changing their Objective from being just Bio-Weapons, but this may need a REBOOT or a Soft One where only ALIEN and Prometheus are Canon.

Sadly as with Michael Myers, Jason Voorhees and Freddy Krueger its hard to do sequels and cover the same Antagonist Villain/Monster unless something is done to attempt to Cover their ORIGINS and thus Prequels which is what the Alien Prequels attempted.

Or... doing a Reboot, but even these can fail.... if we take Freddy for a example, after the first few movies, the Character had become somewhat Comical, it lost that Horrific Serious element,  and so they attempted a more Serious and Sinister Re-boot. 

Despite giving a more Sinister Plot to Freddy Krueger in the 2010 Reboot and a slightly different look, it still suffered with being compared to just another Freddy Flick, the more Sinister Attempt at giving a Deeper Background and slightly different look did not do much to BRING something FRESH, and i feel the Xenomorph has to a degree been something like this.   Alien Covenant attempted like the above, by bringing in a more Sinister Background/Agenda to the Xenomorph and WHY much as how the 2010 Freddy Movie tried to show us WHY Freddy was who he became and like the 2010 Nightmare on Elm Street Re-boot, the Xenomorph in AC had a similar yet slightly different look compared to what we was used to.

The 2010 Freddy Movie had some fans holding on to Nostalgia, they did not like/what or had interest into how Frederick Charles Krueger was a Child Abductor, Abuser etc, they seemed to want more Classic Freddy and some even Petitioning for a  Return of Robert Englund to reprise the role of Freddy and for a Reboot set of Sequels to be made, in Effect Ret-conning the Franchise after Dream Warriors,  but Alas this is similar to Blomkamps Soft Re-boot of the Franchise after Aliens.... where the following movies after Aliens did not quite do the first TWO Justice and so replacing those and bringing back Miss Weaver could have gave the Fanboys something to hold on too....    

This may not have worked, much like maybe how a Re-boot of Freddy 4,5,6 etc would not...  Sure it would be interesting but after seeing A Nightmare on Elm Street 3: Dream Warriors we get a Re-boot sequel, then another and another, but then the same would be with a Rebooted Aliens Sequel, then another.... would these have done anything FRESH to our Freddy Krueger  or Xenomorph?

Or would a Flick that covered what kind of Events would turn a Human being to become the Psychopathic Killer of Children that Frederick Charles Krueger became prior to being Burnt Alive (becoming a Immortal Supernatural Killer) thus giving us insight to WHY Freddy became what he was?

This i feel is what RS is attempting, the Xenomorph is no more than the Burnt Flesh and Knifed Finger Glove that became Freddy and what RS is trying to do is delve into WHAT made the Engineers Create the Bio-Weapon and what made David use this Bio-Weapon to create the Xenomorph.

BigDave

Nov-13-2017 8:39 AM

"But Alien is not that, once you separate these elements from the character you stay with its psychological traits, he is not only a murderer, he is a psychopath, he lacks empathy, emotions or susceptibility, his levels of intelligence and rage are immensely high, he is calculating, his mental processes are totally ruined, he is a deranged killer who does not attack directly but studies his victims in an insane way, he is a sexual depraved, only his high violent behavior satisfies his mental need to dominate his victims, rape, murder, dismember them and get drunk with pleasure while doing it. To this we add what already know:"

Indeed we could see this in the 1979 Xenomorph, but this evolved into something more basic throughout the Franchise, however those comments by yourself... do Sum up to a degree where and what RS is doing/taking us with DAVID 8

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-13-2017 9:51 AM

I think that they do do some more with the Xeno and Xeno related monsters but I am tired of the angle of AI because they have put it at the center of the movie and they have sacrificed good human characters in favor of that.

Prometheus was alright as far as the environment goes and I also liked the new monsters. The Engineers were given too little background information to be as good as the possibly could have been but I prefer that to a movie being taken over by a AI because at least the Engineers looked closer to humans. Unfortunately they have too many bad characters except for Janek and David to make a good movie out of it. Maybe it could have been better if Fox wouldn't have interfered with it.

At least they did something right in AC, that was kill kill Shaw. Unfortunately they thought that all that was needed was to give us the Xeno, that was far away from what it was about.

Unfortunately the Xeno was in it for too much of  a short time just to be killed by a crane. That death was dumb, it just felt that they wanted to get rid of it. It was like a sort of disrespect to those that wanted to see the monster again. I don't think that just having a Xeno is enough to make a better movie but they could have dealt with it a lot better in the movie.

Give us better characters and less slow scenes, there were too many slow scenes in AC. It doesn't have to be action all the time but there got to be a better mix. Pacing doesn't mean too much if the characters are not written well-written.

Having the next movie as something that is focusing on AI is boring. I don't care if it will be about what happens when a AI gets too much freedom or what ever. As long as there is a too slow pace and human characters that are badly done then it will be a boring movie.

Yes one of the things that is good about the Xeno is that it is sort of smart and less like a mindless bug.

"Sadly with Scott's grip on the franchise seeming to ever tighten while drifting away from the core concepts that made it so iconic it is highly unlikely that a true 'Alien' movie will be developed any time in the near future."

This is a part of why Alien Covenant turned out to be unsatisfying.

Gavin

Nov-13-2017 10:35 AM

@ Michelle,

From what I understand you are saying that the inferred traits the Alien had in the first movie would be gratuitously exploited if explored in a modern re-invigorating of the creature, as I suggested in the editorial. This does not have to be the case as an antagonist can be portrayed to be cruel without glorifying cruelty. The perfect example is the "call to John" scene in Terminator 2: Judgment Day, whereby the T-1000 tortures Sarah Connor in an attempt to have her lure John to it. 

Sadly as I glossed over in the editorial, I feel that the traits in question never existed in the 1979 movie, the traits that St. Anger summed it up perfectly...

"But Alien is not that, once you separate these elements from the character you stay with its psychological traits, he is not only a murderer, he is a psychopath, he lacks empathy, emotions or susceptibility, his levels of intelligence and rage are immensely high, he is calculating, his mental processes are totally ruined, he is a deranged killer who does not attack directly but studies his victims in an insane way, he is a sexual depraved, only his high violent behavior satisfies his mental need to dominate his victims, rape, murder, dismember them and get drunk with pleasure while doing it. To this, we add what already know:"

I, like we all, have seen Alien numerous times and all I saw was an overgrown insect born in a typical parasitic fashion (at the expense of its host) use the vent ducts of the Nostromo to incapacitate Brett and Dallas for propagation before killing Parker and Lambert to protect its fledgling offspring. This is not only atypical animalistic behavior, it shows NONE of the alleged traits rose-tinted spectacled fans of Alien imbue upon the creature. This same behavior has been recycled in all subsequent movies, with only Aliens added super-organism intelligence to the mix, with the Aliens bypassing the marines defenses, shutting off power and the Queen operating an elevator.

Such intelligence used with non-gratuitous portrayals of the traits fans claim the original creature had, but didn't, could see the Alien uncooked.

 

Critters5

Nov-13-2017 10:44 AM

I agree. The drone is no Einstein. I believe in the books the only variation that has human or above intelligence was the Queen who I think had an IQ of 150. 

 

BigDave

Nov-13-2017 5:03 PM

I can see the Frustration Thoughts_Dreams but i think we need to remember where RS was going with the Prequels.

ALIEN: introduced us to this Fascinating yet Horrific Alien Organism who Stalked the Crew of the Nostromo of no Apparent Reason other than being a Space Jason Voorhees however the DC version showed us it was actually going about its business to Procreate its Species.

ALIENS: Introduced us to a Queen as a route to Procreation, to answer the Question of where could those Eggs had came from?  Camerons Answers... hinted that it likely was a Queen, We saw the Xenomorph now portrayed as some kind of Hive Mentality Organism thats main objective is Procreate and Protect the Queen. 

ALIEN 3: Attempted to bring us back to a more Thriller, Horror Haunted Maze kind of Flick on a bigger scale, but showing us the Organism still stealthy picked its victims off ONE-BY-ONE like in Alien, and also tried to portray the Organism as being more resilient to death than the Head Exploding Xenomorphs of Aliens.

ALIEN RESURRECTION: is where the Ball Was dropped, while introducing a few good ideas, it also covered some maybe Lazy ideas, that on the other hand could be seen as interesting, but this kind of damaged the reputation of the Xenomorph, the Xenomorphs became pretty much Fodder Again and the New-Born became a bit of a Comical conclusion to some neat Hybrid ideas.

FOX felt the Beast had been a bit cooked at this point, they appeared to not be interested in a Alien 5 set on Earth with Xenomorphs running riot....   and in time they felt a Cross-Over Aliens vs Predator would be a investment to make $$$$$$££££££ by exploiting both Franchises, and doing something DIFFERENT and why not because the Comic Books had success and the Video Games...  And thus we ended up with the AVP Movies which further cooked the Beast, but a majority of its failings was the Time-Line Setting, when they should have covered the Time-line of the Comics and Video Games   i.e the years 2150-2250 Ball Park.

So at this point no body ever answered these Questions...

WHO was the Space Jockey (his Race, Agenda Purpose)

WHAT was he doing with the Cargo, Where was he going?

HOW was the Xenomorph Created or Discovered and WHEN?

They eventually chose to explore this but not in a way that would have Xenomorphs, running around, or introducing Queens, showing Queens laying Eggs and them being taken on board the Space Jockey Ships. Never mind a Literal Shoe-horned Space Jockey Event.

The Aliens, Alien R and AVP movies gave us Queens, and plenty of Xenomorphs, it appears FOX felt that repeating these on screen just to explain where they came from, and how they ended up on the Derelict was not necessary.

These movies with the Pursuit of the Xenomorph by the Companies, showed us the Xenomorph was a Evasive Parasitical Species, Ridley Scott had prior to Prometheus and after spoke how the Derelict was a Bomber and that the Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon Cargo.

So we know the Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon, the BIG THING we did not know was WHY, for WHAT purpose and WHO created it (was it created or Engineered) and if so WHY and for who was the INTENDED recipient

The basis for this was that it was some kind of Engineered Bio-Weapon the Space Jockey Race had been experimenting with, with the intention of unleashing it on Mankind... WHY? because the Curve-ball was that these Space Jockeys were a Ancient Race who created us, or had taken part in how we was created/evolved and then they realized we ended up being a Race who would not be Sub-servant a race who would not stick to the way and expectations/plans and purpose for what we was created for.

So these Engineers had concocted a plan to wipe us out, maybe to start again, and maybe because they realized the potential future threat we would pose if we was left to continue the path we was taking.

So this is the Themes RS wishes to explore, the whole WHY as far as not what the Xenomorph was, is or could be, but in part HOW it came to be, but more so WHY anyone would create such a Bio-Weapon.

The Curve-ball for Alien Covenant was that while the Hubris for the Engineers was creating Mankind and then failing to deal with us, with them failing to contain their Bio-Weapon.. which allowed Mankind to Evolve and Travel the Stars and reach their Dreaded Outpost where they Plotted to Destroy us from... and further more the Engineers Creations, own Sub-Creation  (David) proved to be the undoing of many of the Engineers.

And now in our Hubris, our own Creation has decided to Evolve the Engineers Weapon to Created the Dreaded Xenomorph that he intends to use to destroy all Humanoid Life, or certainly use it as a Weapon so he can cast his own Dominion over Mankind and have us Worship him....

So basically the Xenomorph really is just a Evolution of a Bio-Weapon created by the Engineers, and there is more to the Engineers than just this Bio-Weapon, the Bio-Weapon thus to them is like Mankind inventing and obtaining Gunpowder, and the Xenomorph just the latest extension of evolution of Gunpowder Fire Arms.

Lawrence of Arabia

Nov-13-2017 5:14 PM

BigDave always knows what's up :)

BigDave

Nov-13-2017 5:15 PM

I feel its a shame FOX does not have much confidence in its Franchises, but then alas, they are a B-Movie that Evolved, and its a limited Franchise as far as potential interest.

Blade Runner 2049 is not making much cash, because mainly only the Franchise Fanbase is going to see it, and its not attracting those people who have no interest in Blade Runner, or who never found the movie interesting or those who have never heard or watched Blade Runner..   I feel the Alien Franchise has a somewhat similar Fanbase.... i think the Alien Fanbase is larger, but Movies regarding the Xenomorph especially post Alien 3 have Tarnished the Franchise Somewhat.. pretty much like the Terminator Franchise suffered after its 3rd Movie.

I feel they need to cover the dots from Alien Covenant to Alien, they need to branch off to explore the Engineers and other related themes, and they need to give us a Alien 5, a Xenomorph based flick that is either set after Alien R, or Parallel to the events prior to Alien, or post Alien but prior to Alien R

Sadly i cant see FOX investing the money to do all 3 Projects, without the risk of not making any good return, right now we are at a Stage of getting our Answers for Alien, which means between AC and Alien we have a set of Movies that will answer those Questions maybe even leading to the events of Alien, which no doubt means XENOMORPHS have to make some kind of appearance.

The Problem here is introducing the Xenomorph again too much and not done right prior to the connecting movie to ALIEN means the Beast gets Cooked, overcooked maybe and would render a ALIEN 5 a big No No due to risks of a potential Financial Flop.

On the Flip-side, if they dont cover the Xenomorph in the next movies and its about Rogue AI and Engineers and this puts Fans who want to see Xenomorphs Off, then if these movies Flop because some Fans dont get the Xeno Fix... Ultimately FOX would have to consider would a ALIEN 5 be a good investment?  Again i think this would depend on Outcry from the Fanboys, while also having the movies linking to Alien making Strong Returns.

So FOX are in a very sticky situation... 

I have a few ideas how they can get out of this... i have a broad Synopsis for how i would tackle a AC sequel, which i kind of feel could be similar to the route they are taking... i just dont know if its worth me working on fleshing it out, considering that apparently the ideas and plot has already been worked out and a Sequel Draft is well in the Works.

BigDave

Nov-13-2017 5:23 PM

I can understand the frustration of Fans who want to see the Xenomorph... but we need to look at it from FOX's POV and that will be $$$$$£££££   Sadly for Blade Runner i think chances of a 3rd movie are low.

The SAVING Grace of Blade Runner and Alien could Ultimately be Video Games, if done right a Video Game can expand on the Universe giving Fans their FIX while throwing you into the Story, just look how well a ALIEN Isolation had done, compared to ALIENS Colonial Marines.

Colonial Marines could have been Epic, if done better, Sadly for that game it was to ahead of its Time, in that it covered really nothing New that Aliens had not covered, it was basically Aliens the movie done in a Game with a few changes.... there was nothing New...

But then Isolation had nothing New really either, it was again about a Lone Xenomorph on a Ship, well Space Station this time...

Colonial Marines was ahead of its time, in regards to source material, it basically just used the Derelict in Alien and the Alien Eggs, Face Huggers, Xenomorph and Queen..   NOW a Alien Colonial Marines game set after we had Alien Covenant and Prometheus (remember CM was in production as Prometheus was) then there is now a wealth of expanded material to explore, where Engineer Technology and Engineers could be explored, the Black Goo Pathogen and its many forms of Xenomorph it can create, even Neomorph like Spores would be something a Well done video game could work wonders with.

So maybe the Xenomorph can be enjoyed by the fans in future regarding the Video Game Market, i feel Blade Runner Universe done in a Game if done well could also do very well.

Gavin

Nov-13-2017 10:58 PM

@ BigDave,

"Colonial Marines was ahead of its time"

Are you insane? Have you played the game? Aliens: Colonial Marines is one of the worst video games ever made, in virtually every respect. In terms of marketing, the major screw up of Gearbox Software promoting the game using source code different to that of the release version is infamous. It was revealed that Gearbox removed developers from working on the game to instead work on their latest in-house title. Technologically the developers re-coded the source engine, making it less effective with lower resolution textures, an over-dependence on Dynamic Lighting (which required too much of the CPU and GPU) and a single player NPC AI that was so ineffective we saw Aliens completely ignore the player, run endlessly into empty corners and the NPC marines constantly abandoning the player, and somehow completing objectives by themselves. As for the multiplayer it unimaginatively imitated ideas better executed in other games across a myriad of bland levels with limited and uninspired personalization options.

Narratively the game was even worse. It claimed that the remains of Hicks seen in Alien 3 were not actually Hicks, that the Bishop that appeared at the end of Alien 3 was a synthetic pretending to be a human called Michael Bishop, that the nuclear radiation from the destruction of Hadley's Hopes Atmosphere Processor had caused the aliens to mutate, that there was another Queen that Ripley and co. had completely missed in Aliens. Of course, the biggest narrative anomaly actually raises the question of how much of Prometheus the developer was privy to - I am of course talking about the bizarre appearance of Fifield's 'pups' on board the derelict. Up to this point we had only seen them in marketing for Prometheus, with many fans incorrectly speculating that they were Engineer technology.

daliens

Nov-14-2017 1:10 AM

If the xenomorph was not cooked the AVP would have been a success. 

The only 2 films where the xenomorph was still full of life were Alien and Alien3. In Covenant it was just David's pet. In the rest of the movies it was just a bug. And of course there was the puppet in Disneyland. 

The xenomorph can't be in the center of any film any longer. The Chinese new it already when they censored the xenomorph scenes and this did not affect too much the box office. 

The xenomorph has only its origin to be explained briefly, without any eggs, facehuggers and chestburters. We need to be shown that David was only re-created it from some blueprints he found on the engineers' world. David's xenomorph was not the perfect organism,  its accelerated growth rate seemed to have a negative impact on its intelligence and learning ability. David's xenomorph would expose itself in full light, open spaces, running engines, would knock his head against anything that comes in front of it, it's very different from the alien we knew. So either David will ameliorate it or admit it is his own weak version of  what the engineers created.

I DON'T AGREE WITH THE EDITORIAL, BUT WITH RIDLEY SCOTT: THE BEAST IS COOKED!

 

BigDave

Nov-14-2017 6:54 AM

"Colonial Marines was ahead of its time"

Gavin i think you misunderstood what i meant by that, i meant as far as ahead of its time as a Game Sequel, so i think i used the wrong term for that, so i apologize  LOL  what i meant is the Game was set to be about a a Marine Task Force encountering the Xenomorph again after the events of Aliens, and that it was ahead of any of the advancements that the Franchise was opened up with, from the inclusion of Prometheus and now Alien Covenant.

So what i meant was the Game was set ahead of the time it should have been, in that it only covered what the Franchise had to offer at the time of Aliens,  Eggs, Queens, Face Huggers and the like.   So nothing revolutionary, i only tried to play the game a few times and felt it was lacking.... but i never went back to attempt to get further in it.

So by ahead of time... was the wrong word to use when i was meaning that a Colonial Marines game released now,  Latter in Time  (after the Two Prequels) would have a wealth of options to explore in game, that the Prequels had introduced us to, such as Engineers, Engineer Technology, Black Goo and then things such as the Neomorph never mind the many versions of the Xenomorph that are a result of the Black Goo, and so the Colonial Marines Game we got, was head of time as far as it really should have waited until after Prometheus so that it could introduce some of the Fresh things that movie was showing.

So yeah i guess the ahead of its time, was wrong us, i think maybe i should have stated ahead of a ideal schedule.  But then i did cover what i meant further down in my post ;)

I think a NEW Colonial Marines Game could be more interesting as it could explore more than Xenomorph Eggs and Queens...  it could be around a Mission to Planet 4, or a Mission to LV-223 instead or even Origae-6 if they make a New game after the next movie.

chli

Nov-14-2017 6:55 AM

Of course, it’s not cooked! A movie in the sci-fi-horror genre (and within the Alien Universe) will never become a blockbuster, though, because not enough people are interested in the stuff. Most people want drama, love, realism, comedy etc. Most people are interested in down to Earth :) questions, not philosophical wanderings in space. But there will always be the fanbase . . .

Blade Runner (-82) is a good example of a movie which many of us consider a very good sci-fi movie. It received good criticism, but economically it was a flop. In other words, it flipped among those who are interested in sci-fi but flopped economically because most people aren’t interested in sci-fi (especially not a neo-noir one).

It’s interesting that many are disappointed that Alien: Covenant didn’t do better. It has made about $230 million worldwide so far and add to that money pouring in from dvd's, blu-rays, TV-rights etc. Instead, the question should be: How the he… did it make so much money? Very few people are interested in sci-fi-horror!

To get back to whether the xenomorph is overcooked or not. Among those who enjoy sci-fi and sci-fi horror, there is a division into those who want more action and those who want more of atmosphere and philosophical depth.

But to answer the question whether the xeno should be boiling some more in the pan or taken out of the broth, we must look into how it was presented in AC. Did they (Scott) do it justice? Did they put their soul into it? My answer is: No, they didn’t. They had the possibility (lots of publicity) but they didn’t catch the bus.

Firstly, and as many of you have pointed out, the characterization in AC was poor (you didn’t feel for them). Secondly, many parts of the movie were too rushed, especially the parts with the neos and the xenos. There are two short scenes which come in the vicinity of Alien, and one is in the temple when the neo creeps up behind Rosenthal (Significantly, the part where the neo sneaks in the corridor towards the room where Rosenthal is, was deleted). The second is the shower scene (which is over in the bat of an eye).

The rest is action scenes. The first is where the two neos attack and everybody shoots everywhere. The two xenos (which are birthed in a jiffy) are largely presented in two long action scenes where the heroine would make Superman envious.

So, is the xeno cooked (or fried)? No, but it’s not well done. :)

BigDave

Nov-14-2017 7:05 AM

As far as on Screen, the Xenomorph has to be handled Carefully, right now there are a few things that would need covering as far as the Xenomorph within the Franchise, some maybe do not need Spoon Feeding but here is a list of things we have yet to be fully explored and what surely must come next... given the Foundations laid down in Alien Covenant.

*Thousands of Xenomorph Eggs 

If Davids Creation is what eventually ends up on the Derelict, then Davids Creation has to be explored to how he can end up with Thousands of Eggs and how they end up on a Engineer Ship.   David only has TWO Face Huggers at his disposal and so a Question is do these lead to the Thousands of Eggs in Alien.  Which means maybe do they or do they not explore these TWO Procreation Methods

a) A Morph to Create more Eggs.

b) A Queen like Xenomorph, and then how did this Queen arise.

*Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph Atheistic

The Xenomorph in Alien Covenant, is not quite there yet (Ridley Scott stated) and he also mentioned the purpose of AC was to begin to explore why the Beast felt Bio-Mechanical, and with AC the Xenomorph we saw was more Organic than perhaps any of the other incarnations we have seen in the Franchise.  So if Davids Creation becomes those on the Derelict then surely it must still take some kind of Evolutionary Path that leads to it being more Mechanical/Synthetic Looking.

I feel these are the minimum things that we would need to discover, when putting us on a path that leads to those Eggs on the Derelict and the Queen in Aliens.

And so the Xenomorph has a role to play, but it has to be handled very carefully, i feel Alien Covenant did not disappoint because it introduced the Xenomorph, it disappointed because it was marketed heavily as a Xenomorph movie and Ultimately the movie did not cover enough of the Xenomorph on Screen to do it any justice at all.

These Scenes rushed, and the Gestation/Growth rate increased due to restraints as far as how much of the different Plot Points had to be covered within the restraints of a limited run-time.  I feel it did not disappoint simply because they showed us Xenomorphs or how they looked.

BigDave

Nov-14-2017 7:28 AM

This reply was in response to seeing the Queen and Xenomorphs again, in a reply to my Alien  5 Topic. But i feel its a reply that fits more so with this Topic.

===================================

I think its a case of how do you do this justice?

If its handled wrong then it could back fire and cause the beast to be overcooked....

The Franchise is split, as far as Fanbase and some Fans would indeed love to see Xenomorphs and Queens and another movie that is like a Remake of Aliens, but its a case of if we go to the Well to many times it becomes Dry....

I feel a Alien Sequel aka Alien 5 has to try something different, i mean there has to be a SOLID Reason why after Alien 3 the Franchise had 200 year Gap with no Xenomorphs (but movies could fill in this gap) but we have to ask the BIG QUESTION...

Why go after Ripley in Alien 3?  

Was the Derelict completely Destroyed?  we have to assume so, but then AC shows us Xenomorph Eggs exist on Planet 4 as part of Davids Experiments, and David is off to Origae-6 and from his TWO Face Hugger Embryos we must eventually arrive at Thousands of Eggs that end up on the Derelict.... so surely there could be Xenomorphs on Planet 4 and Origae-6

Indeed we can SAFELY Assume so now, but there has to be a Reason that the Companies only means to the Xenomorph is via Ripley and after she had Sacrificed herself to the Fire Pit.... the Xenomorph died with her... until Alien Resurrection where they resurrected if via Cloning Ripley (bit of a flawed Plot).   So i think as far as a Literal Sequel to Alien Resurrection it would be better to explore something different.

We have to assume, that by the time of Aliens the Derelict and those Eggs are all that remains of Davids Xenomorph for some Reason, and after the Destruction of the Derelict in Aliens with the Destruction of Hadleys Hope, the only route left was via a infected Ripley.  Thus the Xenomorph is GONE... but they could try and Re-clone Ripley from Ripley 8 DNA but this would be a copy of Alien Resurrection, or they could have it some Xenomorphs or DNA survived the destruction of the  USM Auriga.  But again why tread over something all ready done.

We cant have a Alien 5 with Xenos and Queens, and a Alien Prequels with Xenos and Queens unless its done Perfectly, and so far every Alien movie after Alien 3 has had a flawed approach....

HOWEVER......

We are shown the Xenomorph is a creation of David's  and so at some point, Davids Creation must Evolve to become more Bio-Mechanical and Multiply to become Thousands of Eggs, and so if the next few movies link to Alien then they have to at least in some way cover the Xenomorph.

A few Xenomorph Related Events that have to happen and potential holes that need covering are.

*Davids Creations must end in Thousands of Eggs on the Derelict (plus how a Queen could arise)

*David still has a number of Eggs on Planet 4

*David is off to Origae-6 the Advent Prologue suggesting he wishes to see his creation develop and his Wolves need Lambs (Colonist) and a Queen and so David must on Origae-6 create another Nest of Eggs.

These all leave avenues to be explored and introduce us to the Xenomorph if done right, and as far as any other sequel to the Original Franchise, or Parallel stories that do not involved the events between Alien Covenant and Alien Literally, must be avenues where we explore something different and not the Xenomorph.

Gavin

Nov-14-2017 11:30 AM

@ BigDave,

The only KNOWN source of the Xenomorph was the derelict Juggernaut of Acheron LV-426. And considering the low collective IQ of the crew of the Auriga, anything they claimed has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Post Alien: Resurrection there is another Queen available to the USMC, as Ripley 7 (the deformed one) did have the same scar on her chest as Ripley 8. It is my belief that the Queen we saw in Resurrection was Ripley 7's and the Queen from Ripley 8 was taken by the Auriga's superiors at the USMC because it would have been a more pure specimen, with little cross contamination. But that's a debate for another day.

Beyond the other 24th Century Queen (sounds like a David Bowie song), there are other options to source the Xenomorph from...

LV-223 - All that Black Pathogen, multiple Juggernauts, and the Deacon are just sitting there waiting.

LV-??? - With LV-223 and LV-426 both having been used by 'forces' linked to the Xenomorph there is undoubtedly something on the third moon.

Planet 4 - Four Juggernauts (one crashed, one mother also crashed and two in the city hangar), Davids lab and the eggs in its basement, a Black Pathogen contaminated ecosystem.

Other Juggernauts - As Janek said, you don't build weapons on your front door, and I doubt Planet 4 was the only planet occupied by the Engineers, so there have to be other Juggernauts out there.

Another possibility is the Nostromo. If you watch Alien carefully when the Narcissus launches away from the Nostromo you will see that the Refinery shrinks out of view completely before we see an explosion a few seconds later. We are led to believe that The Nostromo was destroyed. Special Order 937 stated that  Organism be acquired and safely returned to Weyland-Yutani. If we consider the theatrical release as the canon release (as only fans would watch the directors cut) we can assume Dallas and Brett met the same fate, but were not incinerated by Ripley. As such MUTHUR allowing the self-destruct sequence to be activated, and then later disallowing Ripley to shut it off is in breach of SO 937, unless MUTHUR had a contingency plan whereby as the Narcissus launched in one direction the Nostromo trust in the opposite direction and dropped its nuclear core. from Ripleys perspective (what we saw) the Nostromo and the Refinery would have just appeared to disappear into the distance, with the cores detonation pushing both the Narcissus and the Nostromo in opposite directions, left to drift until discovered - The Narcissus carrying Ripley and Jones, and the Nostromo carrying the murdered crew, the Refinery, a Xenomorph egg (formerly Brett) and a cocooned Captain Dallas.

Michelle Johnston

Nov-14-2017 9:26 PM

@Big Dave

Yes your reading my post correctly. Its a weapon using parasitic qualities to self perpetuate. Its "tic" is the "weapon" uses highly sexualised non consensual behaviour which can be viewed as punishment to create further weapons. Of course when you write that down and think of the opening of Prometheus with its consensual sacrifice to create affirmative life I want to scream with frustration not horror at the complete failure to examine how A become B. I agree with Ridley the beast is cooked but I think Ridley needed a great writer to make that connection between A and B and answer the question who's the guy in the chair. of JS and a bit of DL and someone who could have constructed a robust mythology.

@Chilli

Your falling for the same delusion if only the characters chewed more gum and were smarter the A L I E N could be served up fresh. Its a weapon with certain over sexualised characteristics end of .    

chli

Nov-15-2017 9:13 AM

Michelle Johnston

When it comes to characterization/actors, I would say that AC is the worst of the lot (only Fassbender is interesting in his doppelganger roll). In Alien, all seven were good actors (Holm and Hurt with a background in theatre) and created interesting characters. In Alien 3 there were very good actors (Charles Dance, Brian Glover, Weaver of course). In Prometheus there were also good actors (apart from Fassbender) such as Pearce, Theron etc. Even Aliens had characters that were interesting and that you could feel for (the same goes for AR). But AC had none (except Fassbender’s characters). The acting wasn’t bad, but you need good/interesting character actors around the main character (who usually isn't particularly interesting).

Also, before Hurt (Kane) gave birth to the alien, you had gotten to know him. He was a character that you felt for. When Ledward is impregnated by the neo, all you had seen of him before that was him smoking a cigarette. Some of those who died in the neo attack and by one of the xenos, you had barely seen. I’m still not sure who they were. And Oram . . .

But this was supposed to be about how to cook a xeno . . . I don’t think everything needs to be “fresh” as you put it. Sometimes you enjoy the repetitive, just as Christmas every year is always (almost) the same, and you can watch “A Christmas Carol” (perhaps different versions) for the 50th time or so.

Furthermore, I don’t think you should compare the xeno with a serial killer. The difference is that the xeno is a healthy animal whereas a serial killer is a disturbed human. The xeno just follows its instincts and is amoral (which is scary in itself) but it’s not evil. IT (the clown entity) is evil.

Also, the xeno might have some “over sexualised characteristics” stemming from Giger, but sex and violence might be good to watch sometimes (katharsis), just to turn everything upside down and let out repressed things we have inside us . . .

Critters5

Nov-15-2017 9:38 AM

Chli, totally agree, even Alien 4 had better character development than AC. There was virtually none. Prometheus and AC could have been incredible in so many ways and in the end they are just such mediocre movies. 

Lawrence of Arabia

Nov-15-2017 9:46 AM

"Also, before Hurt (Kane) gave birth to the alien, you had gotten to know him. He was a character that you felt for."

Explain where in the original did they flesh Kane out? He was the red shirt of that film and they did not give him any screen time aside from occasional camera pans. They barely fleshed out any characters in the original aside from Parker and his bonus situation and Lambert's mood swings. I cold argue A:C followed n the same Lovecraftian spirit, where the human characterizations were minimal and superfluous to the cosmic horror. A:C had decent actors, Waterson, Crudup, and McBride, but did consist in a lot of new talent to which I guess was suppose to help their careers like the original did for Weaver but nonetheless did a great job. Both Carmen Ejogo and Amy Seimetz did excellent performances as well as the guy who played Ledward.

Lawrence of Arabia

Nov-15-2017 10:53 AM

I feel like a lot of the fans misinterpret the character roles of the Alien films. Every Alien film had a cast of characters we barely got to know until further re-watches familiarized us with them. Yes, they are there for us to relate to the situation and it helps that they are likable but the real story is of the creature and the cosmic horror that follows. That's why we watch these films, right? For the Lovecraftian horror and spectacle, not for a lovable cast of rascals? I'm not saying the A.I. element is more important when it should be the same but, as Ripley (Human) was the protagonist of the originals, David is the main attraction this go around so it makes sense that they want to delve more into those elements like they did with the former. Prometheus was always a marriage between Blade Runner and Alien so it makes sense the narrative direction Ridley is taking.  I love the Xenomorph just as much as any Alien fan but we can only make so many films about being chased down corridors until it gets cooked and I think that is where Ridley is coming from with his statement of the beast almost running out. You need a new hook, something different to shake things up and take the heat off the beast so it can uncook so when we do get a Xeno-centric film it will be a breath of fresh air. It also doesn't help that when he tried to reinvent the creature people freaked cuz it wasn't traditional or what they expected or that it was sidelined somehow despite the beast being prominent throughout the film (the Neomorph is a Xenomorph without armor). I think everyone just needs to take a chill pill and be glad that the Alien franchise is still kicking and that the man who created the universe is trying to make fans happy while trying to evolve it beyond simply rehashing.

ScorpioStar

Nov-15-2017 11:44 AM

@Lawrence of Arabia

Perfect!

Cosmic horrors, and humans just being a small part of the everlasting time (?) running.

Howard Philips Lovecraft... Maybe people should be exposed to hardcore Sci-Fi - for there's too much whining about this and that character.

Should we give them COLOUR OUT OF SPACE just for them to mourn Nahum Gardner (and family) and bitch about the director/screenwriter/actor?

ScorpioStar

Nov-15-2017 11:53 AM

And, please let me enphaze it, H.P.L's COLOUR (the spelling fits the bill) is far more scaring than the famous and adored bug you guys are fighting for.

ScorpioStar

Nov-15-2017 12:00 PM

...emphasize (no edits allowed here, it seems).

chli

Nov-15-2017 12:27 PM

Lawrence of Arabia

Well, everything is relative (except the speed of light), but I would say that Kane had more screen time in comparison to Ledward. He was seen now and again before their picnic to the Derelict, and their excursion was quite prolonged. You could hear his voice (which is special) over the com.radio. After his visit in the cargo hold and the face hug, he was seen in med lab and also after the facehugger had implanted the embryo and he woke up. Then there was some more dialogue and then the kitchen scene . . .

But I think one key thing is that they were only 7 in Alien (15 in AC) which makes it easier to get to know them better. All (except Weaver) were skilled actors so Scott could focus on the visionary parts of the movie. The other actors were actually afraid that this rookie would ruin the show, but she didn’t. Besides this, I would say that the characters were more special and interesting in all the other films. McBride was something of a character actor, but not close to, say, Paxton or Glover.

 

chli

Nov-15-2017 12:47 PM

If you don't have good actors playing interesting characters, you won't have a good movie. And it's not just to throw in a monster in a movie, it's what you do with it that counts.

Lawrence of Arabia

Nov-15-2017 1:16 PM

chli Everything is relative except for what I stated. Kane had screen-time, yes, but it wasn't character development it was plot driven. After watching the film several times the only thing I know about the character of Kane is that he was Dallas' right-hand or something, he stared into the egg, and gave birth to the Alien. I feel most fans are looking at the originals with rose-tinted glasses because the characters weren't all that great and they made just as many dumb decisions but everyone looks past all that because they love the film, I do as well but objectively speaking the only interesting character was Ash, Ripley, and maybe Parker. Aliens had 16 characters and most of them hardly had any development before being killed off. 

I do agree it's more than simply throwing a monster in there but the way Covenant did it wasn't any different from most Alien films aside from the focus on A.I.. Everyone likes to praise Alien on how Lovecraftian it is but when we get a real Lovecraftian horror tale everyone freaks out because humans aren't the focus, which is contradicting.

BigDave

Nov-15-2017 6:58 PM

I think the problem with Prometheus, more so with AC is the overall PLOT is what is given the upmost importance and the Characters for the most part were just their to push certain parts of the Plot.  I think AR even did a better job of giving us a bit more about the characters.

This is something they need to correct, but looking at where Alien Covenants Sequel lies between AC and Alien and more so if there is only ONE movie, with so much to cover i fear again Characters will be a bit lacking.

AC did attempt to give us a Alien as far as a build up to the Characters, we need to remember that ALIEN basically only had the Equivalent of say Daniels, Oram, Tennessee, Faris, Karine, Lope and Walter/David so these 7 cast were like the 7 in Alien to a degree, but in Alien they was more fleshed out, which AC attempted to do with the Slow Build up, and i think it needed longer and maybe the Prologue Last Supper helped but the movie had a limited run-time

Hallet, Ankor, Ledwood, Cole, Rosenthal, Ricks and Upworth were kind of just like how in Aliens we had Frost, Drake, Spunkmeyer, Ferro, Apone and Wierzbowski etc, some to somewhat a lesser degree so Ledwood, Ankor were basically your Wierzbowski with Rosenthal and Upworth being your Ferro a Hallet being your Spunkmeyer and a Cole being your Drake etc

D1M1H7

Nov-15-2017 7:10 PM

New director please. Thanks.

red0guy

Nov-15-2017 7:55 PM

Lawrence of Arabia

Sorry but have you ever read anything by Lovecraft? The are focus on people that meet powers so unknown so not caring, so that terrifying that they go insane. Lovecraftian horror is the fear of the unknown. See John Carpenter the Apocalypse Trilogy.

In the whole Alien franchise Prometheus is the most Lovecraftian, being somewhat a rip-off of Lovecraft's At the Montains of Madness. In Covenant however, we have no awakening ancient horror as the engineers are killed of in 10 seconds and the Alien is a scientific experiment. Insanity was produced by malfunction due to lack of proper maintenance, not exposure to the ancient beings. Yeah sure we have monster, but the are indirectly created by humans, using 19th century methodology and technology. The horror (David) is not an ancient one, he is not indifferent towards humanity, he wants to destroy it.

Alien Covenant is a gothic horror story, similar to Frankenstein, but way meaner, and HP Lovecraft wrote Herbert West-Reanimator to parody it.

So, you can like AC, but it is far from being Lovecraftian.

chli

Nov-15-2017 8:44 PM

Lawrence of Arabia

I agree with you that Kane isn’t a dynamic character. I would say that character development usually is for the main character and perhaps for the antagonist. The main character needs a backup of character actors who present interesting, funny or perhaps irritating traits. They are often stereotyped. You are right, of course, that we have gotten to know them by watching these film many times, but if you have fewer characters they get more screen time. They become familiar (even though they don’t change).

In Aliens there were more characters than in Alien, but I think there was a core which we followed for a longer time, and those who were more peripheral stuck out. In AC there were more anonymous characters and the reason for this might be that Scott opted for a more plot-driven movie with lots of action to satisfy (parts of) the fans. This might also be the reason for the many mini-movies - compensation for the loss of characterization and other things?

Which movie is the most Lovecraftian is perhaps a matter of dispute but the difference between Alien and AC is that Alien was creepy (with the monster lurking in the shadows of the long corridors of The Nostromo) whereas AC was about action (with a few exceptions, not creepy at all).

Michelle Johnston

Nov-16-2017 2:48 AM

Gavin

Thanks for your reply. I think what I am getting from you is with a great deal of thought you can make the micro management of the action and the A L I E N's for want of a better word stealth and ingenuity much more interesting and "fresh". So the drama is in the curiosity of its behaviour. An interesting thought and when put alongside A C and the behaviour of the creature shows how utterly unimaginative its portrayal was. Listening to Ridley's commentary he is riffing not creating. 

@chli

I fundamentally disagree with you the problem of A C is not the portrayal of characters it is the portrayal of the beast. There are three characters the couple on the Covenant and the beheaded woman who are completely flat and so is their demise but then its no coincidence that John Logan's original sprit gave much more time to the former and the latter didn't exist.

The panic of T's wife Ledward's sneaking off for a smoke the new way to deal with grief Daniels the pentecostal Oram all felt like real people but then I view the Prometheus crew as representing dozens of people I have met particularly the loutish smoking Fifield and the incautious Gay Milburn. The problem with them was the editing out of the lead in scene and choreographing of the famous cobra scene.

But as you know I am in the camp that says in the real world people do stupid things.    

 

 

 

red0guy

Nov-16-2017 3:28 AM

Michelle Johnston

Sorry but I have to disagree with you. Oram's choice to follow the Devil in the basement and getting facehugged is only a lazy parallel to the fall of man from the Bible. No one would act like in real life. And the portrayal of Weyland as an arrogant fool was too childish and idiotic (using brute force to submit his creation, instead of starting on debug the David's programming), at least compared to Nathan from Ex Machina or Tyrell from the original Blade Runner.

chli

Nov-16-2017 12:04 PM

Michelle Johnston

You have to feel something for the characters. If they die you have to feel sad. There has to be desperation and perhaps sacrifice (PATHOS). But there was nothing but action and unfolding of the plot. No particular attachment between the characters, and no particular attachment between the audience and the characters. It was like the old Icelandic sagas (iceberg technique). Just plainly telling a straightforward story.

The characters were supposed to be like ordinary people, ordinary couples, I suppose? But were they really? They were the elite in their respective field, handpicked by WY. Shouldn’t they have been a bit more eccentric?

The mini-films were much better than the feature film. In “The Last Supper” they bond and drink to their “covenant” (their pact, their alliance of together founding a new colony far away from their fatherland). And of course “The Crossing” which was beautifully made . . .

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-16-2017 12:11 PM

Big Dave: Thanks for the detailed reply, I appreciate that.

Maybe they should have stopped after Alien 3?  Alien 1-3 are good enough the way they are with A3 being my favorite for different reasons. One of the reasons why three is good is because the alien was made smart again. The Xenos were not disasters in Aliens but I prefer how they portrayed the monster in Alien and Alien 3.

I still think that Alien is effective because of that haunted house kind of thing combined with good characterizations by the actors. Yes Lambert was sort of whiny but at the same time I can understand her fear and why she acts the way she does so there is an explanation that is well done. Just imagine if you were in a situation like that, wouldn't you have panicked also? I think that a lot of people would have so I can easily forgive her for that.

The egg-morphing is more weird if you ask me and seems to be more interesting. The queen (Aliens) wasn't bad but they could have chosen a better route.

Alien 3 made the correct decision to show us that the organism was more complicated than just a monster that you could kill with a gun. I really like that they changed this compared to Aliens, it is more interesting that way because then you got to think a bit more if you want to kill it. Just that they don't have guns in the prison make the odds worse for them and therefore it becomes a more interesting movie.

“This is a maximum secure prison and you don't have weapons of any kind?” (something like that)

I think that they made the movie more interesting by having it like that.

AR is where it started to go to crap

The Space Jockey thing is interesting but they didn't gave a very good answer to that. I am talking about Prometheus, it was an interesting idea but a bad result mainly because of the fact that the characters were not well-done. More Xeno clues and better characters would have made the movie a lot better I think. Just look at cut scenes from the movie.

“So we know the Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon, the BIG THING we did not know was WHY, for WHAT purpose and WHO created it (was it created or Engineered) and if so WHY and for who was the INTENDED recipient “

Which seems like interesting ideas if you ask me. I think that they could have made a better choice than to hint at it as being a product of a mad android. Hopefully they will change it in the next movie so the Engineers are more involved in what became the monster rather than having David as a creator of the original.

Hopefully they could show us parts of how it came to be but please don't give us the whole explanation. Please don't make David the creator of the original because that would be lame.

“So basically the Xenomorph really is just a Evolution of a Bio-Weapon created by the Engineers, and there is more to the Engineers than just this Bio-Weapon, the Bio-Weapon thus to them is like Mankind inventing and obtaining Gunpowder, and the Xenomorph just the latest extension of evolution of Gunpowder Fire Arms.”

I understand that but they should not make David the creator of the original monster because of the reason that he isn't very interesting partially because of Scott but also that he was used too much in AC and because of bad human characters.

“So basically the Xenomorph really is just a Evolution of a Bio-Weapon created by the Engineers, and there is more to the Engineers than just this Bio-Weapon, the Bio-Weapon thus to them is like Mankind inventing and obtaining Gunpowder, and the Xenomorph just the latest extension of evolution of Gunpowder Fire Arms.”

I would rather have it that the Engineers made the original Xeno or found it rather than to have it being a creation of David because that is lame. I think that they went with a boring explanation if that is what they decide to be the explanation to how the Xeno came to be.

A movie about the Engineers, hopefully they will be featured more in the next movie but their motifs must be explained better and they also nee to be better written. I would like to see how their society works and so on because that could be interesting. You mentioned some projects, if they shall just do one I hope that it will be about the Engineers but it got to be executed in a way that makes us an an audience care about it.

Xenos, OK but I hope for better human characters and that we will hopefully see more of the Engineers and how they are connected to the Space Jockey in some way at least. They don't need to spoon-feed us the answers. Maybe they could have the Xenos a bit more in the next movie, have a clearer connection but I hope for better characters and more about the Engineers. As we saw in AC and AR, just because you have Xenos in a movie doesn't mean that it will be good (the same goes for AVP by the way).

“... the ideas and plot has already been worked out and a Sequel Draft is well in the Works.”

 

Well, I really hope that it won't mean another let-down but at this point I expect the worst. I don't trust Fox and I am not sure if I trust the writers either even though I think that Fox and Scott are mostly to blame for AC and Prometheus (even though I would rather watch Prometheus than AC because of how AC dealt with David, the Xeno, and the human characters).

Blade Runner: I am not very interested in watching it keeping in mind how the AI thing got over-cooked in AC. Alien Covenant made me less interested in movies about artificial intelligence because of how it took over the movie. Hopefully this will make them tone down the robot part in the next movie, they should if they are smart enough because at least they can't deny that BR2 wasn't of interest to many. Ridley should be smart enough to see this, maybe he isn't I don't know.

This became a long reply, oh well.

BigDave

Nov-16-2017 4:32 PM

You raise some good points..

i understand a number of people are disappointed in how the 15ft Space Jockey, became a Advanced Angry 7.5ft (tops) Race of Humanoids, who hated Mankind,  but this got worse with AC, because they are now a slightly smaller and less Menacing more Human Looking Race who have Males/Females and Children, they are now just some other Human Race, where even Klingons look more Bad-ass now, never mind Predators. 

I know some people are disappointed the Xenomorph is not a Ancient Organism no more, but more so now its a Creation by David a Synthetic created by a Human with a God Complex, has indeed made Fans even more disappointed.

So we have these Humanoid Engineers, who look no where near as advanced or menacing as those in Prometheus who have Females and can Procreate, which raises why the Hell the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus.

We have these beings Create the Bio-Weapon in Prometheus, loose control of it and see them all wiped out (but one) on their LV-223 Outpost who eventually also falls foul to the results of their own creation intended to be used on Mankind.

Then we have David the Android, basically Hustle Dr Shaw to put him back together, so he can carry out his Agenda where he uses the Engineers Bio-Weapon upon their Homeworld (we assume) and then proceeds to experiments with the After-Math and Black Goo to create the Xenomorph.

That then somehow ends up on the Derelict...

I can see the disappointment in these ideas..

So i think they can FIX them...

*Not pleased with the Engineers and how they are portrayed in Alien Covenant... Simple.. bring in some other Race in a Hierarchy above them with a Sinister Agenda, maybe giving reason for the Sacrificial Scene and why Mankind was created.

*Not pleased with how David created the Xenomorph... again Simple have it the Race above the Engineers discover what David has done, and see the Potential with Davids Creation and they attempt to Evolve and Upgrade Davids Creation to the Xenomorph we all know and love.

THIS ^^^^ Can both bring about Ridley Scotts fascination with Creation/Sub-Creation.

Because it could be we then see.... 

1) The Hierarchy Create Engineers, Engineers Sub Create Mankind.. Engineers Create or experiment with the Goo to Create a Weapon to use on Mankind but Back Fires.

2) Humans created by the Engineers, Rebel causing Engineers to want to destroy them.. this fails and eventually Mankind Sub-creates the Synthetics.

3) Humans go off to what they feel is a invitation to meet their Creators and end up at a place where the Engineers attempted to experiment/create something to use on Mankind...   Humans for their curiosity, all suffer at the hands of the Bio-Weapon and its intention apart from Dr Shaw and the Synthetic David

4) The Synthetic uses Dr Shaw, so he can escape LV-223 and be free and unleash the Engineers Bio-Weapon upon those Engineers and then Create something from it to use on Mankind.

Which brings us to 5) The Hierarchy who discover their Creation, Sub-creates and attempts to undo this with a Bio-Weapon this fails, the Hierarchies Creations, Sub-creation then Sub-creates for itself and this Sub-Creation David is actually able to Handle the Engineers Bio-Weapon and Unleash it on the Hierarchies own Creation, and then David attempts to Create something from this Bio-Weapon to destroy his own Creators, like he already had on his Creators Creators....

This leaves the Hierarchy to witness, their own Creation's Sub Creation has actually become something very interesting and has managed to Perfect the Bio-Weapon... well almost.

The Hierarchy above the Engineers would then look at Davids Achievements with his OWN Sub-creation and be so impressed at how through there actions to Sub-Create Engineers, we end up with a Lader of Sub-creation that ends with Davids Xenomorph.

The Hierarchy of Creation then decide to take Davids Creation in astonishment and attempt to Evolve it, and they Too end up becoming Foul to this Creation.

This fits with the constant theme/hubris of Creating Something, and having this Creation then Sub-create and this Process continues until we get the Xenomorph, thus the Creation Tree would be like...  

Hierarchy above Engineers, Engineers, Humans, Synthetics and Xenomorph.

It brings in a Larger Race above the Engineers who can be made more Majestic and Powerful than the Engineers and reveal all David had done was taken the Blue-Print from the Black Goo, and Create something more Perfect and able to control this Creation....  so the beings above the Engineers are like WOW, Thank You for the work we just need to add a few touches.. and so Ultimately The Engineers Hierarchy Create the Xenomorph from Davids attempt of Perfecting a Organism via using the Black Goo, that may indeed have Originated from the Engineers Hierarchy in some way.

The miss-use of the Hierarchy Creation Tool, by Sub-Creation after Sub-Creation leads to downfall, until the End Result was Davids Xenomorphs.... before the Top of the Hierarchy Evolve it one more time and they bite the dust from doing so... a ULTIMATE Tale of Creation Hubris.

This is kind of how i was to tackle my Prometheus 2 draft, its also similar to what i think the Source i had was alluding to.. The Question is this the Route FOX/RS will go?

Michelle Johnston

Nov-16-2017 7:47 PM

red0guy & Chili

We are shifting the point around here. The essential point I was making is the crafting of the characters in Covenant was nicely done and for me had a sense of authenticity. However they were deliberately put on a retread repeat journey. Message, divert, stuff happens, face hug, chest burst, all die and Xeno blown into space. So Orams behaviour is equally as stupid as Kane's. The difference is we know much more than we did the first time so the second time the character looks stupid. This is course old ground the characters in Alien do just as many stupid things its just novel... which is precisely why you can not keep on making the same film over and over again. 

Peter Weyland is due ex machina to get the whole story going mad, hubristic, delusional and that creates an environment where a lot of chancers and a damaged Elizabeth go off in search of our creators. The reprocessing of the story and having a  young man play an old man was unfortunate.

Caring I didn't care about the crew of the Nostromo, I am not sure I cared about Deckard and probably do not care about K but goodness me I was/am interested in what they mean and their journey because its an interesting one, one that is not altogether clear and of course Ripley grew changed and sacrificed herself, there is a emotional thread which builds up on loyalty and yet people compare that journey to the mechanical, by the numbers, moustachioed caricatured villain that David has become.    

 

chli

Nov-17-2017 2:28 AM

Michelle Johnston

Well, all three of RS’s Alien-films (Alien, Prometheus and AC) have roughly the same plot or structure: Message (in Prometheus the cave painting) - investigate - problem starts - chaos (everybody dies) - monster is defeated (in Prometheus the engineer) - heroine survives (in AC there was a twist at the end so she will likely be dead in the next one - just as Shaw). Alien: Awakening will probably not have a similar plot (although nearly all films have The Three Act Structure). We (the fans) need one more movie to connect the whole shebang to Alien. I hope they’ll think this one through carefully before starting the project . . .

Critters5

Nov-17-2017 10:09 AM

Do you think Ridley reads editorials like this to take the pulse of his fanbase? 

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