Oct-06-2017 2:21 PM
I don't want another movie focused on AI. I want a movie with good human characters. He is trying to make a movie that is worse than Covenant, I bet that it is what he is trying to do. Keep him away from this if it will be the AI show. Sorry for being emotional but I want to puke on the direction where they are going, someone stop him please.
Who can see themselves in an AI? I can't, that is why it is important to have sympathetic human characters.
Oct-06-2017 2:35 PM
IMO David as an AI is an interesting antagonist for that very reason Thoughts_Dreams. His absolute apathy and total lack of understanding of suffering and pain makes him terrifying.
As Ash said in the original film quoted by another synthetic...
I admire its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.
I feel Ridley is applying this idea to David as well as the Xenomorph. But where the Xenomorph is a true neutral entity - indiscriminately killing with the simple objective of propagating its species, David is more of a neutral evil. He has an agenda and that makes him much more sinister and dangerous.
Oct-06-2017 2:38 PM
I'm sure there will be a lot of human characters in the movie: around 2000 colonists from the Covenant, plus crew members of a new ship, etc.
Plus imagine the number of the possible new alien creatures, mutants, etc.
And the revenge of the Engineers with some exciting and clever space battle scenes.
Probably it will be the most interesting Alien movie.
Oct-06-2017 2:50 PM
I respect your opinion but what makes me kind of angry is when they try to spend 75% of a two hour movie at an android. Sure they have been important in the franchise since day one but no movie has been centered around AI before they made Prometheus. I don't care if Scott thinks that it is interesting, I don't think that it is good to spend most of a movie that is two hours at an android with creator madness because there is no way that I can see myself in him or feel sympathy for him, sorry I just can't and because of that it gets boring. The direction that this is taking now is just crap.
Oct-06-2017 3:42 PM
I'm really sorry, but Ridley Scott is over :(
If next movie is all about David again, then don't exploit the name of Alien. Aliens in Covenant looked like they don't have any intelligence at all. And the same about the whole Covenant crew. Just call it David (who sucks out brains of any life form) and make it a soap opera. Alien 1979 was great, Prometheus was ok. Please don't ruin it.
Oct-06-2017 3:57 PM
I agree with Thoughts_Dreams. Like i said in the other thread, this is called Alien not Terminator in Space.
Oct-06-2017 4:36 PM
I'll probably enjoy it more than Covenant simply because i know what i'm getting into this time. I came to see Covenant expecting a proper Prometheus sequel (in terms of themes) and an Alien film but what i got was more like Blade Runner with xenos. Expectations is everything.
I do agree with the others though, this is Alien not Terminator. I really wish he would make a spinoff type of thing and leave the xenos and engineers out of it. An AI story with creatures and themes of creation is very interesting but having to connect all this to Alien lore is like shooting yourself in the foot creatively. Take the cuffs off Ridley and give this subject the attention it deserves.
Although he says he's shifting the story, there's still a lot of unanswered questions, making this departure very difficult to realize. Also Fox, don't put Alien in the title please.
Just my two cents.
Oct-06-2017 6:04 PM
Well in A L I E N, Ash should have killed the crew after they/he got the incredibly valuable facehugger specimen on the Nostromo!
......killed them(food poisoning/decompression/needle,..etc) then walked to the derelict(without a space suit)grabbed a bunch of eggs and flown the Nostromo back to headquarters....would have made wayyyy more sense.
A L I E N could have been a thrilling movie with Ash slowly killing the crew.
BUT they found the perfect design : Giger's monster!
I think RS/Fox/screenwriters are searching for a Giger 2 design...something fresh.
Oct-06-2017 6:36 PM
Thoughts_Dreams thank you and I do agree. Covenant was very David-heavy. His character worked best when he was running amok behind the scenes without notice like in Prometheus. That film had a good David-to-everyone-else ratio XD
Oct-06-2017 10:37 PM
Damon Lindelof has said that the story hasn't arrived at the place that Ridley envisaged them going to in Prometheus Two. The hints as to what that world were :-
1) They were very aggressive "f....."
2) It would not be paradise but much more what we expect hell to be.
3) The early plots lines talked about the source of their power being a machine.
When you consider Ridleys remarks its very easy to see that the way they are going to play it is, David makes that world.
It is also noticeable that Das Rheingold, where Alberich (David) has enslaved the Nibelung (The Colonists) using the power of the ring (The Pathogen)and is interrupted by Wotan (W-Y) who demands the power of the ring and Erda (The Engineers) suddenly arrives warning of the terrible curse of the Ring and Wotan gives it up to the giants who themselves suffer death from its curse (The Space Jockey) could drive the narrative.
Who knows, but Ridley correctly has read the runes this time the beast is cooked David is capable of much more real and successful evil. However as Thoughts_Dreams has said we need mediation in amongst all the sci fi someone we care about to survive and it has to come from an honest W-Y or a surviving Colonist and their role has to be established quickly so they take us through the story and get that wretched android blown to bits. We do not need, get to know the crew /messages/discovery we need someone in it from five minutes and then tell the story. A prologue explaining the horrors of Origae 6 with a survivor would do it (The equivalent of Matt Damon left on Mars and then off go)
Oct-06-2017 11:37 PM
As I see it, Ridley Scott is a very talented, visionary type of director, who himself was into painting. This usually means broad brushstrokes not paying attention to plot details. If I remember correctly, he said that he disliked series, Alien 1, 2, 3 etc, but changed his mind? Therefore we have films that are visionary and thematically very good, whereas the plot details are thrown out the window, especially when it comes to connecting films (like soap operas)?
As a matter of fact, RS has said that he wasn’t into opera, Michelle . . .
Oct-07-2017 12:11 AM
I am excited about this news. Totally what I anticipate it will be for the next sequel. I want to see more badass David.
Oct-07-2017 4:59 AM
that makes sense.. We have seen how the biology of the xenomorph was created. now it has to be finished by developing the mechanical part of it... until we get the final product seen in the original movie
Oct-07-2017 6:45 AM
There is only one movie that we really wanna see. It involves colonial marines kicking ass, getting there ass kicked, and then kicking more ass. If RS wants to continue David's story, it will truly be the last one because the box office will not rule in his favor. Fox gave him a pass "for old time sake" is what covenant feels like. Also where did the queen go that layed those eggs? We want to see humans doing the best they can against the xenomorphs. Notice its plural. A colonial marines vs aliens is what not only the hard core fans want, but the newcomers to the franchise as well. It will also give fox the numbers they want and need.
Oct-07-2017 1:48 PM
If even a gorgeus film about AI like "Blade Runner: 2049" with a much larger budget, critic acclaim, fan acclaim and tons of advertising is looking to become a major flop (and for this one I am really sad), it is not likely that another AI movie is going to happen, specially if it goes for the wrong target audience.
Oct-07-2017 3:00 PM
Blade Runner has a fraction of the fan base that Alien has though, not many people really know of its existence. And the marketing was piss poor for that film imo.
Oct-07-2017 3:22 PM
Chris Yes, a large fanbase, half of which is all checked out already. Lets take a look at how well AI centered movies have fared as of late: "Transcendence", "Ghost in the Shell", "Terminator Genisys".
Oct-07-2017 11:21 PM
Well this gives me hope that the focus is on the reckoning between David and the Engineers. I'm not necessarily interested in human characterstory elements since they obviously are fodder for David's machinations and there are too many existential questions that Scott needs to answer for these films to stand on their own. He challenged us in Prometheus, teased us with Covenant.. now he owes the audience some answers (rather than repeating the same questions History Channel does w/ their quasi-Von Daniken tv shows).
Oct-07-2017 11:30 PM
Your points about Bladerunner 2049 are completely on point.... to a point. As I have said before you need the 18-39 year olds who make up 43% of the cinema going public to buy into movies which have a tent pole financial narrative.
Bladerunner is film noire understood and remembered by the over 40's audience full of nuance and subtlety. The new movie is liked by the critics and fans. However the marketing needed to draw the key age audience. Two issues spring to mind:-
1) The marketing kept the plot hidden so as not to spoil the movie.
2) Its long.
Neither of these qualities will draw the casual audience who wants easy cinema spoon fed to them quickly (The criticism I heard from the pop corn audience was Covenant was far to slow to getting going and then crashed in the second act before the good bits).
A decadent world horribly sub created by David into which Weyland Yutani and the Engineers come into where A I is in the ascendancy but the audience has a human hero might work for the bigger audience.
Its notable Ridley rejected Michael and Jacks scripts who had both come off AI stories with lots of symbolism rather than an emphasis on a strong character narrative but were A I orientated and yet he is happy with what he is building with Covenant 2. I think it will be the adversarial element that will give him the tension and story he wants. Covenant was mad robot made the Xeno's. Covenant 2 is envisaged as mad robot makes a decadent world with Xeno iconography.
Oct-08-2017 1:36 AM
To me, it’s interesting why Ridley Scott wants to raise a warning finger about AI and the search for extraterrestrial life (like Hawking)? If anything, man is far worse (war etc.) than a synthetic. Why? Because a synthetic has no emotions - it’s logical . . .
Oct-08-2017 1:55 AM
This is absolutely the right direction for the bridge between AC and Alien. While I understand the angst being expressed by some, AI turning 'bad' is the direction already chosen (Ash in Alien anyone) and although not the origin story of the Xenos many were hoping for, it joins nicely to the original. One could suggest this 'Terminator' style AI theme was in fact born in the original Alien film, and borrowed by Cameron (among other sources) for the original Terminator.
Plenty of scope in the franchise to produce many spin off movies full of Xenos and Colonial Marines, but as ML alluded to above, Prometheus was when David found a purpose, AC was when he experimented with that purpose, and the next film will be where he perfects his purpose leading to the perfection encountered in Alien.
Oct-08-2017 2:06 AM
Michelle Johnston Yes you are right. The facts support what you have said.
This was posted by deadline:
"Blade Runner 2049 is too slow for the under 25 guy bunch (they gave it a B on CinemaScore with those 2% of under 18ers who ducked the R-rating restriction at their local theater giving the sequel a B-). If you’re wondering why Mad Max: Fury Road, another ’80s sci-fi franchise reboot, outperformed Blade Runner 2049 ($45M opening), it’s because that was a much faster-paced film which stoked the attention spans of the under 25 set. In addition, there was hero identity in Tom Hardy and Charlize Theron’s characters, the latter a persona who could stoke those women showing up to the theater. There’s not that much hero identity going on in the moody, brooding tale of Ryan Gosling’s Blade Runner K. Per PostTrak, more under 25 men turned out for Mad Max vs. Blade Runner 2049 (26% to 23%) and more under 25 females (17% to 8%). In addition, Mad Max‘s demos were more spread out and not so older guy heavy when compared to Blade Runner 2049 (males over 25 were 34% for the George Miller-directed pic to 50% for the Denis Villeneuve-directed sequel)."
It seems incredible to me that we are talking about these numbers (31 million?!!!). The producers were just clueless and there are lessons to be learnt from this.
Oct-08-2017 2:19 AM
But if Alien Covenant contributed to the Blade Runner's results? But if you take into account that a young colleague of mine only could watch the original BR in 3 or 4 sit-downs we probably are at the end of an era...
Oct-08-2017 2:55 AM
I must add that if David will be sitting chestbursted in the pilot chair in the derelict, I´m out of here . . .
So far, they have done a good job ruining the history and mystery of it all . . .
Oct-08-2017 3:24 AM
[email protected] I don't think so. But one thing is for sure: androids with philosophical preoccupations are for a niche audience. But at least it will be a smaller, happier audience. As a proof of this, "Blade Runner: 2049" is already ranked #52 in the imdb top 250 with a 8.7 rating (compare to Covenant's 6.5). Try to transfer the same themes into a franchise like "Alien" and you get a pissed off audience.
Oct-08-2017 3:42 AM
No, I think it’s over. How could they come up with the idea that the space jockey wasn’t fossilised but a space suit? How could they come up with the idea that David created the eggs and not the engineers (a long time ago)?
They must have tried hard (or looked too deeply into the whisky bottle) to come up with this . . .
Ridley Scott thought that he could come up with something interesting, but forgot that there are fans loving the original Alien.
Oct-08-2017 4:13 AM
If RS wants to philosophies about AI in the Alien universe for me it's perfectly fine, but why them muddy the water with Xenomorphs origins or other CGI monsters? Why sell toys? Why make trilogies? Why not hire writers to do profound and nuanced stuff? I've said already I like Alien but not such the Xenomorph, so why not explore the reaction of the AI reaction to the vastness and emptiness of space? What would be his reaction as a being for pure logic to the discovery of unfathomable lovecraftian horror in space?
Why Pinocchio again, why slaves' revolt again?
As for me, my favorite AI/ robo related movie (as in story) is still the second Ghost in the Shell (Innocence) anime, which is made almost knowingly that would flop but the director's love was more important than that.
Oct-08-2017 4:27 AM
Well. I think that Ridley Scott was right about one thing: the goose is cooked (he cooked it).
Oct-08-2017 6:48 AM
AI / androids are horrific! I'd much rather be killed outright by a xeno/space monster than suffer years/decades of torture by an AI(I suppose AI could keep you alive for thousands of years. A guinea pig for whatever....Might seek out your whole family so they can watch).
Westworld creep'd me out as a kid. Space monsters I can understand. AI not so much.
Oct-08-2017 8:07 AM
@Joylitt and Chris made great comments about BR 2049 potentially flopping and to me; and it is a better movie that AC. If Ridley focuses his next movie on the above, trust me, I am sitting it out until it hits cable.
Lawrence of Arabia
Oct-08-2017 9:37 AM
Good. This is what Prometheus was, a marriage between Blade Runner and Alien, Covenant continued this and set-up Covenant 2. You can only have the monster chasing humans down dark corridors be the premise so many times without shaking it up. The AI, believe it or not, has had a substantial role in the mythos of the Alien saga, so instead of it being the sub-plot this go-around is logical and welcome. David is the "Ripley" of these prequels and he created the Xenomorph, it only makes sense to continue down this path. The Alien is a biomechanoid creature, implying it's an AI as well, so we've been going through Terminator in space without (some) even realizing it.
Oct-08-2017 7:36 PM
Lawrence of Arabia - '...so we've been going through Terminator in space without (some) even realizing it.'
Great point! :)
A good piece of news about Blade Runner 2049:
'Internationally, Blade Runner 2049 met overseas expectations, debuting with an estimated $50.2 million from 63 markets, 61% of its international footprint, capturing the #1 spot in 45 of those markets. The film's opening in the UK led the way with an estimated $8 million, on par with Interstellar and ~15% ahead of Mad Max: Fury Road. In Australia the film brought in an estimated $3.6 million, topping both Interstellar (9%) and Gravity (28%) and in Russia it finished with an estimated $4.9 million, on par with Mad Max: Fury Road. Additional openings include France ($3.6M), Germany ($3.3M), Spain ($2.6M), Italy ($2.5M), Brazil ($1.8M) and Mexico ($1.6M).
Blade Runner 2049 will open in South Korea next week followed by an October 27 opening in Japan and a November 10 opening in China.'
Oct-08-2017 11:18 PM
Yes, that is only 10 mil more than Covenant with a wider release. Don't want it to fail but we must keep in mind that this movie was at least 150 mil and to achieve the 2.5 the production cost in incomes it must make at least 375 mil. There is a very, very long walk to there.
Oct-09-2017 12:42 AM
The release of AC and BR bring into focus a really interesting question. How do you take a story with a minor cult beginning Alien and Bladerunner one of which becomes a franchise the other a much beloved late entry "work of genius" and then dress them as tent pole movies which appeal to a larger audience and one that is rather different than 1979 1982 (given the alien franchise is burdened with aliens needs).
Incidentally if I give the impression that everyone over 60 is bright sophisticated in need of something really demanding whereas the millennials do not have an attention span beyond a gnat then thats an over simplification. People have always been across the spectrum.
The Question, which several here are coming round to is, can David hold the series together and back us in (probably left in the chair) and the beast is merely texture like A 3.
The answer is what more can he tell us about himself.
Pinocchio/Apartheid-response to and attitude to mankind/A child like attitude to sexual rejection (of any kind).
What those questions demonstrate to me is so little was achieved in Covenant that we are a ahead of the narrative. We were not quite sure in Prometheus what next now its obvious. Ok so intellectually we get the joining of the dots but what about mediation and being on a side caring about the outcome. I care about the outcome I want him blown to bits within five minutes and then we can get on with something interesting like all the questions raised by Prometheus.
Cautionary Tales of A I Part 1 Part II Part III is a little limiting to say the least.
Oct-09-2017 8:31 AM
Thanks for the comment Michelle J.
Speaking of colonists there were some in Aliens but then there were also more focus on the humans compared to Alien Covenant and thus I probably prefer Aliens over AC any day although Aliens feel too 80's for me.
Yes we need some people that we can care for and that's early in the movie to keep the movie away from the AI-centricity in AC (which sort of is what made it worse than it could have been). Covenant was alright until it became the David show and then it went downhill. Fassbender did alright but it was too much AI and too little about the humans so I don't really blame Fassbender but rather the direction of the movie.
"We do not need, get to know the crew /messages/discovery we need someone in it from five minutes and then tell the story."
I think that we need at least three or four characters to care for that are humans, not AI or what ever. They also need to establish those characters kind of fast and they need to be well-written. Alien Covenant confirmed to me that having just three characters that are alright (to me these three were Oram since he was sort of well written compared to many other in that movie, David, and Walter) is not enough. Only one human character that they got alright, it is a shame. It is not that Daniels and Tennessee sucked but we didn't get to know that much about them. This is how I see it, but it is up to you if you agree or disagree. We must be given better human characters in the next movie or else they:
1. Either haven't listened or
2. They are playing some sort of sick joke on us
The two prequels that we have gotten this far are not very good as far as human characters are concerned I feel that they owe us some good characters in the next movie to sort of make up for Prometheus and AC. I am totally serious about this but I also feel that I need to have some constructive criticism about the movies and not just shout and point my middle finger because that would be sort of childish but yes they have done a lot of failures in these prequels mainly.
1. Somehow they got the idea that David could have been the originator of the original Xeno (an idea that I despise)
2. They have ignored the human part of it by having in general failed with the human characters even though they were not as annoying in AC compared to Prometheus but then it became the David show, which sucks.
My complaint could easily be summed up as this: either focus on well-made human characters or I am out of here and let the ship sink so to speak.
If it will focus on David then I will maybe see it once in the movie theaters but I bet that it will suck so I am prepared for the worst.
"If Ridley focuses his next movie on the above, trust me, I am sitting it out until it hits cable."
I am considering that.
Oct-09-2017 8:59 AM
Michelle J - "People have always been across the spectrum."
I respectfully disagree. The type of media/entertainment/info/etc and the nonstop exposure to it is making a difference on people and the functioning of their brain and thought-processes. I think people as a whole have gotten less intelligent and the evidence is everywhere.
Oct-09-2017 12:28 PM
The Crossing and Advent were better than the entire whole of Covvy for my tastes. The content for a great next Alien film is there even if its mostly David or war of the worlds. I just have zero faith Ridley can direct a film the masses will enjoy. He'll get sidetracked with going in to many directions with too many writers packing too many ideas into a film he knows is 2 hours thus butchering the end product and choking the life of the character's dialogue by his all encompassing hard on for symbolism at all costs. But let him finish, its not my money Fox is throwing down the toilet. Despite the harshness, I wish him luck in making a 'successful' film like the beloved Prometheus! Big Dave I miss seeing your posts and hope you get feeling better!
Oct-09-2017 1:18 PM
I am not sure how old you are but as its well known I am over 60 I was anxious not to stereotype everybody, possibly to anxious. However the notion that real enquiry and commitment is on the wain whereas simple easy answers is on the increase is I believe true. Peoples emotionally sensory perceptions and commitment to the moment is in my view being eroded by their pre occupation with reporting the moment rather than being in it which is counterintuitive and distracting. However many actors (at the RSC) choristers and musicians who require years of craft and dedication are still making the journey and giving delight its just the audiences I sit in are in the main 60 plus.
I think the "under performance" of BR 2049 is an extremely useful compass point to look at what the mass audience wants. Do trailers give away the plot because studios think it will not sell equally was the aesthetic reaction to Prometheus and the straight line into David to make the prequels less saleable no the answer is trailers give away the plot because audiences want it made easy and the narrative potential of Prometheus was eviscerated to make it easier on audiences.
You only have to read the script that is the foundation of Covenant to see how they wanted to take something enigmatic and make it routine though John Logan being a fan was able to make something of the Engineers ...which was left out.
If David is pre eminent in the follow up with humans and creatures his slaves with W-Y and the Engineers turning up for a fight of sorts that sounds like a good routine movie. As T-D indicated we just need some heroic human mediation.
It maybe my age but I need a film where I care about the characters and they offer a coherent emotional journey. David proved with multiple unreliable reflections on Shaw his attempt to galvanise sexuality in Walter and his love of non consensual creationism he will do absolutely anything to manage his way through. That kind of nihilism has limited audience loyalty. With Ripley we wanted her to succeed but on many occasions did not know how she would react and when she calmed down in moments of quiet we got a flood of emotional information about her both in her relations with Dwight, Newt and Clemens (in the Assembly Cut).
If i watch another quiet moment with David I am simply going to be looking at whether the other element has worked out he is lying nothing he says or does can be trusted. They have used up so much to get him on the ship his narrative is going to be an exercise in irony.
Oct-09-2017 5:26 PM
Thanks and you raise some good points
@Lawrence of Arabia
some very very good comments could not agree more
which Script is that one? "You only have to read the script that is the foundation of Covenant"
" A colonial marines vs aliens is what not only the hard core fans want, but the newcomers to the franchise as well"
I think this is where the Problem lies, and a Error in the Alien: Prefix as the Fanboys are going to expect a ALIEN movie with a Prefix in the title ans so if the next movie has a ALIEN Prefix then i think it would surely have to cover the Xenomorph.
The Franchise Fanbase is very split...
ALIEN was a classic, a Space Horror which had a Big Mystery regarding the Eggs on the Derelict/Xenomorph Origin as well as the Space Jockey Race. Aliens gave us a Popcorn Action movie that followed on from Alien that started to split some fans as some felt it was too Action and Degraded the Alien from the 1979 Movie.
Alien 3 went back to the Horror Routes with a more larger Platform for the Alien to kill off more people, and this movie had then set up THE END of Ripley and the ALIEN which in effect kind of killed off the Franchise, not literally but just from a story point it proved to be the Sacrificial End for Ripley, to prevent the Company from ever getting its hands on the Xenomorph.
Years passed by.... before FOX felt it was time to Resurrect the Franchise and the only way they could think of would be to cast Miss Weaver again (after she asked to be killed off in Alien 3) So they had to think of a way to bring Ripley back... and then the Xenomorph and so the whole Clone Ripley DNA (Flawed) route was taken... A Plot that due to being set way in the future, seemed to show that the Queen inside Ripley in Alien 3 was the only Remnants of the Xenomorph the Company could explore.
AR did not do too well, it was a flawed movie, that tried to bring back a more Action Movie Vibe..
AT THIS POINT.....
No body had ever Answered the Xenomorph Origins, and who the Space Jockey was and what he was doing with that Cargo.....
In Hindsight maybe it should have remained a Mystery, or maybe they should have tackled some more Alien Origin...
Instead when working with Jon Spaights they had fleshed out a whole Curve-ball Story about the Space Jockey being a Ancient Humanoid Race who are called the Engineers who were the ancient beings who visted Mankind throughout Ancient History they played a role in our Creation and Evolution and are what the Many Stories, Mythos and Religions about GODs on Earth had originated from.
The Xenomorph just being something they had experimented with and to be used as a Bio-Weapon to Kill Mankind because we had become a Rebellious Threat and a Disappointment to the Engineers.
so they opened up a Whole New Universe with the Engineers, where the Xenomorph was merely just a Weapon/Experiment.. and so FOX felt there was more to the Engineers than just the Xenomorph and liked the whole Ancient Astronaut Story Arc.
We have seen the Xeno over and over, and it was cooked after the AVP Movies, but the Back Ground Curve-ball regarding the Engineer Race was deemed something Never done... something Fresh.
And so the Xeno was toned down and Philosophical and Creation themes where concentrated on that gave us Prometheus.
Sadly while this opened up a New Story for some Fans to be interested in, for a lot of Alien Fans it was a disappointment...
So they Cracked in and Toned this all down, and gave into to Alien Fans by giving us Aliens in AC, they attempted to please every kind of Fanbase here... but ultimately displeased most instead.
Now they have ran with the Curve-ball that David the Robot created the Xenomorph, i cant see them dropping this now, not if RS had anything to say about it.
Its a interesting Curve-ball, but again i think the David = Xeno Creator and Space Jockey = Giant Humanoids are things that i feel half the fan base are not interested in.
My next post i will answer why its interesting...
Oct-09-2017 5:50 PM
So we have gone down the Rabbit Hole of the Engineers... this may displease some...
But behind all that Ancient Gods etc, was some very interesting fundamental philosophy, Prometheus did take us down the Ancient Astronaut route, but behind all this was a very IMPORTANT THEME
Creation, and more so Intelligent Creation, so Intelligent and given Free-will or gain Free-will that they start to see themselves as being more than they was intended. Its a tale of Creator/Creation, Father and Son, a King and his Reign.
Its a tale about a Creation/Son/Prince becoming Sentient, and seeing that their Creator/Father/King has no greater reason to be different or seen as superior to them... Questions about what makes them less superior or less worthy than their Creator/Father etc
A Tale of Rebellion..... This Tale is told in the Bible, more so in Paradise Lost, God Creates his Angels and he creates one so Perfect, and grants this one more Free-will as GODs Favored Creation that his Creation.. Lucifer begins to notice how Perfect he is, and comes to conclude what makes his Creator so Special above him and the other angels, that he starts to see himself as being Free, and not needing to Serve his Creator, as a Slave but to become his own King.
This Tale is told over and over in the Greek Mythos with the constant theme of Creator/Father fearing the Rebellion of his Children, and then being over thrown by his Creation/Child and the Succeeding Creation and Child then also having the same Fear that the same would happen to them.
A Tale of Power, of being in control and a tale of being against being a Servant, well being at under the Rule of their Creator/Father.
Weyland we can see his Quest, and so David would have seen his Agenda which the Prologue touches upon.... David is created by Peter Weyland, to serve Peter Weyland and future Androids like David are to serve Mankind.... yet David is superior in every way..
This Theme goes further up with even the Engineers and what may be revealed about them and what Hierarchy they follow, as it was going to show us the Engineers are not GODs, they too are part of a Hierarchy of Creation... and indeed its likely they Rebelled against their Creators too.
At the Center of all this we have the Sacrificial Goo, a Tool for Creation, but also Destruction, maybe a Forbidden Fruit/Fire only intended to be used by certain beings or under the order of certain beings, but a TOOL that has been Stolen and Manipulated over and over.
The Sacrificial Goo was a KEY to Creation, it is linked too with the Black Goo, these Engineers had been playing with the Sacrificial Goo to their own Agenda, the results of this are connected to the Black Goo, the Mural and what ever was being done on LV-223
So the WHOLE IRONY is that these Would be Creators of Mankind, had Stolen/Misused a Ancient Powerful TOOL, they was involved in some kind of as yet unknown Agenda.. The Engineers Created or played a Role in Mankind, and the Engineers Creation Rebelled, that required the Engineers to dabble in the Creation of a Horrific Bio-Weapon... maybe they Re-weaponized some Weapon/Punishment that was intended for them by their Creators?
And so we came to Mankind, who created Androids like David, and we see David shows signs of Rebellion and discontent for his Creators too.
and it is a iconic Twist of Fate.... that the Engineers who created Mankind, see their Creations Create David, who in-turn is able to Use the Bio-Weapon/Tool to greater effect than his own Creators Creator.
The notion that David sees Mankind as in-superior, he sees the Engineers as nothing Special apart from their Technology and the Evil Bio-Weapon they was intending to create/perfect. The Irony that David is able to succeed where the Engineers Failed, and utilize and Perfect from the Black Goo a Perfect Bio-Weapon.
I think this is the Thing that Ridley Scott is most interested about.. and i have a sneaking feeling we shall meet those who created the Engineers, those who set out to Punish the Engineers with something Horrific for their miss-use of the Creation Tool, but the Engineers using the Creation Tool attempted to Re-Engineer this Punishment that results in the Black Goo.
I think the Engineers Hierarchy will discover that their Creations, Creations Creation (David) has mastered the Creation Tool and Perfected the Bio-Weapon that the Engineers Creators had sent down to destroy the Engineers....
I feel this is where we are going.. its the route i would go.. and i have a feeling that the Hierarchy of beings above the Engineers will overcome David, and then See the PERFECTION he has created and then these beings attempt to Collect Davids Perfection for their own Needs..
But this Proved Costly and leads to our 15ft Space Jockey.
Lawrence of Arabia
Oct-09-2017 6:01 PM
Well put brother :) Reminds me when Shaw asked who created the Engineers. I LOVE this Creation/Creator story and feel it fits quite well with the Alien franchise and the narrative thus far.
Oct-09-2017 7:13 PM
Michelle Johnston Honestly, you are totally right. I am starting to think that we should sign a petition addressed to Michael Fassbender, so he declines participating in the next Alien movie. It's just all these AI nonsense is causing irreparable damage to the franchise. I am all for deep thinking and branching out, but narrowing the scope of a franchise about Aliens into a conspiratorial AI story is shortsighted, boring and ultimately suicidal.
Oct-10-2017 12:36 AM
Good analysis, BigDave!
I wonder if David will set up his world on Origae-6? We will see him as a gardener of Eden, eventually being overthrown himself by his own creation?
Oct-10-2017 5:37 AM
But they have dealt with Deacons, who are larger and more ferocious than Xenomorphs, how exactly are they going to tear thru radiation suits,.and no offense but an Engineer is still taller and larger than a Xenomorph, and has green blood and black goo, they may neutralize the acid, looked forbid a facehugger impregnated a female Engineer, David would have no way of controlling that Queen
Oct-10-2017 6:20 AM
Michelle, I am 40+. I agree with you wholeheartedly... the narrative potential of 'Prometheus' was eviscerated to make it more "palatable" to the general movie-going public. Don't get me wrong, I love movies where I shut down my brain and thinking and just enjoy it, but that was not what intrigued me about 'Prometheus', the Engineers and the potential in moving that narrative forward, and not what I had hoped for in 'A:C'.
As for 'BR2049', I will be seeing that with my other friends who are my age, and older, this Friday. We all thoroughly enjoyed the original and are looking forward to the sequel!
Oct-10-2017 8:01 AM
If RS is going to just replace the Alien movies with a retread of blade runner only in space ill be glad to jump ship here. so Alien is now even further from alien, first they turned alien into space Frankenstein and now its terminator in space. why not just make a different franchise instead of tacking Alien on to this now AI movie and deluding the alien films and franchise further. its quite sad to see RS cannibalizing the Alien franchise...
i was hoping RS learned from his last 2 movies "Prometheus And AC" but i guess not hes just going to get worse.. i think ill stick to comics and fan work as thats where the real talent is when telling a good alien story.
RS seems to have become lazy and lost his ability to form a story that holds any continuity.
Oct-10-2017 2:10 PM
Jeri.theSOB You won't be alone to jump ship if that happens. Ridley Scott has just one more chance to get things right, but if he doesn't, the trilogy of prequels is going to be regarded in exactly the same light as the Star Wars prequels, but following the rule of diminishing returns. The audience outside the fanbase (together with a considerable percentage of it, maybe as much as 75%) will have ZERO interest in a movie like that. We will be just waiting for the return of the real Alien, done buy whoever understands what it takes to make an Alien movie.
Oct-10-2017 10:30 PM
John Logan's script which will be very close to the one the actors were given pre production. ((Shaw completely out -Benjamin Rigby)
Your speculations about the babushka doll the next layer is exactly where I thought we were going "the Engineers are only a superior species so who made them"? IF the protagonist for Davids destruction is that next layer and you return the next film to a creation story about everything rather than the Xenomorph then tonally you return to Prometheus and ask the question "Why the F... didn't David and Shaw arrive on Paradise find out something about the Engineers and then hints of a hierarchy". Put simply wheres the narrative foot print ? Oh its David.
The original idea was to find the Xenomorph origins in the general creation story (Spaihts) not find the Xenomorphs origins in a mad robot. RS can now only go with Davids story and his destruction with everything else as texture.
I love all sorts of movies the last two were Hector and Sully but what i find interesting with the general tone of this discussion is it reminds me that I learn so much about things that are disappointing and why from things that work. If I think of Homeland or Person of Interest each show has a coherent tone a sense of knowing what they are. There were surprises and fresh insights but they are certain of their major pre occupations and "what they are". These films are like fragments which do not belong to each other being glued together to produce an incoherent body of work and to continue the analogy a monster (A L I E N S) looking on waiting in the wings to be switched on.
Oct-12-2017 3:45 PM
Tonight I saw a wonderful extra ordinary film heavily involving Ridley Scott. It begins with the opening of an eye and breath taking visuals.
A follow up movie which cleverly builds and gives new meaning to its predecessor. Heavily focused on the notion of sub creation and what kind of life that represents in particular artificial life and within that construct living by proxy through multiple characters. It was a quest story for a truth which held to the values of its original but steered its own course.
It focused on one lead accompanied and prodded by a co lead through out to a climax which gave the lead meaning and salvation.
I am talking about Bladerunner 2049 which took more than one idea from Prometheus 11 and delivered in spades and knocked Covenant into the next galaxy. It knew what it was, it was riveting and unexpected and you were rooting with the main lead until the last page though it was no cute or troped ending. Not a millennial in site in the cinema and everyone groaned at the god awful trailers for yet more marvel films.
Congratulations to all involved eschewing set piece action endings which I was terrified would spoil the film but never came, it developed slowly and thoughtfully and enigmatically through its 163 minutes.
If ever a movie can show us how things can be done this one is it and to think that Ridley is going to stray more into the same themes now looks riskier than ever.
Oct-12-2017 4:37 PM
Michelle Johnston I agree. I am glad I went in without knowing much. The revelations start early in the film and they are neatly weaved into the narrative. There is considerable imagination involved, both in how the ideas and themes are explored, and in the world building. I found very strong christian parallels the second time I watched it. There are just a few plot devices that seem a little bit too convenient, but as a whole this is a very strong follow up to an unmatched, one of a kind classic.
Oct-13-2017 2:44 PM
I am delighted you enjoyed it to. I knew nothing about the film before I sat down and I was completely suspended through out. However my intellectual rather than instinctive reaction made several mental notes.
1) A follow through quest story.
2) Only two people engaged at anyone time in a real narrative sense, but for the episode in front of the dam.
3) A revelation through a connected replication similar to a dream sequence.
4) A fallen broken world.
5) Sacrifice and Salvation.
A subtext which did not challenge the creation myth but more what is being, what is soul and the revelation of connected minds through Engineering rather than materialism.
Then I got to thinking about the speculations I laid out for Prometheus 2 where the straight line was Elizabeths question within the context of a search for our origins and I suddenly realised that they are the same movie, even the movements within each act, except one is looking for the beginning and the other is trying to explain the end.
I am sure you can imagine seeing the other non Xeno broader story where A. I. is challenged and enigmatic following the same beats and narrative focus I would have gone for, made my quietly pleased and very contented. One doesn't have to imagine real continuity a distracting group who die and a troped cooked beast absent its there for all to see. Two people could have arrived at a fallen world with hidden surprises some interventions and finished with a revelation, sacrifice and redemption... and just enough uncertainty.
Oct-13-2017 2:47 PM
I am a bit worried that the next movie will be complete shit and totally focused on AI.
"It maybe my age but I need a film where I care about the characters and they offer a coherent emotional journey."
Egg-sack-tly this (Xeno, queen, egg-sack, got it?).
I mean why do Star Wars work? Because we care about the main characters and what they go through. Just think about Luke's development from episode 4-6. When I think about the movies that I like I find that this is common for all of them. GI Jane is a movie that I like (I might get shit for this) but it is the same thing: I cared about the main character and what she went through. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon is another movie that works for the same reason, and also Batman (1989) and Batman Returns (1992). Even the Penguin in Batman Returns had an interesting back-story in the movie, that is what made him interesting. 28 Days later is a movie that works for me for the same reason (I like zombie movies). Kill Bill 1&2 are movies about the Bride's (Uma Thuman) development and her journey for revenge were we meet some interesting characters aside from the main character. Even Bill in Kill Bill was interesting although not very likable, but he was interesting. Also the Bride's trainer was an interesting character and the way they had built him up. The Shining is good for the same reason, how the main character develops a journey into madness, also the side characters are well-written.
Anyways my point is that all these movies work because we care about the main characters, at least I do. If they would have had bad characters they would have been garbage. Alien Covenant failed big time with this and therefore the movie doesn't become that interesting to me. Keep in mind that these movies are about human characters and therefore they get interesting.
Alien 3 and one are still the best movies in the franchise IMO. The simple reason is that the characters are interesting and that they make me wonder how I would react in a situation like that. This is what good movies do IMO, they make us think about them because they have good content and interesting characters. Unfortunately AC failed with this. For some reason it makes me wonder how it would have been if Fox wouldn't have messed with the production of the movie. I am glad that they kept the AI in the background although Bishop is a sympathetic character.
"Its a interesting Curve-ball, but again i think the David = Xeno Creator and Space Jockey = Giant Humanoids are things that i feel half the fan base are not interested in."
To me it just seems boring, maybe they could get the Engineers right but they messed up David so I am not really interested in that character the way he is portrayed now. David was better in Prometheus because he wasn't totally evil. Unfortunately they didn't even get the main-character (David) right although he wasn't a total disappointment.
Oct-13-2017 2:56 PM
Again Bladerunner 2049 makes the point by example. The main characters are deeply fascinating with a very substantial question and a consistent response to the world in which they are moving in. There are surprises but its in the story as we get to understand a coherent character.
David is entirely different he invests you in his thoughts and then throws them away, or dissembles them and this happens over and over again. Thats not fascinating its boring as hell and made more so by repeating it :-
1) With the entire crew of Prometheus.
2) With Charlie.
3) With Elizabeth.
4) With Elizabeth yet again.
5) With Weyland retrospectively.
6) With Elizabeth yes yet again.
7) With the entire crew of Covenant.
8) With Walter.
9) With Daniels.
10) With Daniels yet again.
OK I have got the point so a robot can lie, fake love bait and switch. move on nothing happening here maybe thats it David is the Joker of this franchise in more ways than one.
Oct-15-2017 12:47 PM
The problem here is that fans and audiences want to much to soon. Everyone complained about Prometheus because they wanted the opposite now people complain about AC because it is the opposite of Prometheus add David. People want answers to Prometheus and Alien but they don’t want David in AC. Covenant is not a bad movie if it was just a action/horror and was set a few years after Prometheus trilogy and Alien and had no David in the movie directly but had evidence in the film showing possible connection of him being there and the threat that the crew ran into was the aftermath of Davids or even the Engineers experiments on that planet Xeno breeds left behind trying to survive and or evolve but for it to be a sequel to one film and a prequel to another it has to have David and be somewhat David heavy in material considering he is the only remaining crew member of a film that is a prequel to Alien you can’t have AC be a action/horror film with direct relation to Prometheus and Alien without David but is what I am getting from everyone who has complaints is that that’s what they want and that makes no sense RS and Fox should have stuck there plans with Prometheus they should have stuck to there guns and not let people with no experience making movies dictate what they do next we should of trusted in Scott and had faith instead 95% of people complained complained and complained some more about how neither film was what they expected well if you expect it then it’s no fun as far as I’m concerned the issue here isn’t did you like AC or not or if you disappointed or not the real problem is if you even liked Prometheus or not and those who did looked forward to the next step and reserved there opinions and those who didn’t let it all out and made it know how upset they were that the film was not a Alien film and because of that we got AC Prometheus was not just a prequel series but supposed to be a launching point , foundation and blueprint for turning Alien into a universe and not just a series of films and thanks to entitlement and inpatients this is in jeopardy
Oct-15-2017 1:02 PM
As for the needing humans to make a dramatic and emotional connection to the next film I disagree with that because David is first Generation and has not only technology flaws but has some human moxie through being developed by and for Weyland plus I’ve said this before time and time again everyone is assuming the Engineers are emotionless or to dark to have compassion or to connect with on a emotional level the Engineers will be more interesting if they have more personalities and are emotional and there for if we have limited or no humans in the next film they will make up for it and possibly be more entertaining because it will be the first that we truly spectate the there species on a bigger level and scale
Oct-24-2017 10:24 AM
With all my love for David in Prometheus and some his inspiring lines in AC, I think it is too much to focus on AI in the next movie. I want interesting human characters, like it was in Prometheus.