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IMMORTALITY!

IMMORTALITY!

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BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPJun-05-2021 12:12 AM

Looking at the Prequels we had Ridley Scott mention that Part of them was about IMMORTALITY.

I think this is always something Interesting to Ponder, as indeed with Prometheus the WHOLE Mission came about because of a Frail Old Man (Peter Weyland) who DID-NOT want to DIE and so he thought that IF the Scientists (Dr Shaw and Holloway) were RIGHT about their Gods/Creators Hypothesis then maybe these GODS could Grant this Dying Man some kind of Extended Existence or better still IMMORTALITY.

This Man being a Scientist himself MUST have tried in many ways though Scientific Advancements to Extend his Life with Little Success and so NOW he is Hopeful that these Engineers are Gods or Godlike and can Grant him his Wish.

We find out these Engineers are Not Really Gods and are MORTAL after all, but they do seem to Posses ways to Extend their Lives to a Degree.  The Pitch that Jon Spaights had made about the Engineers was at some point they was NOT that much Different to us, but they Managed to Genetically Alter themselves to LIVE for Thousands of Years. But this was NOT enough for they Wanted to try and Achieve some Divinity to Transcend to a Existence Beyond the Physical Body.

With Holloway he was a Scientists who looked at Creation as being merely a Experiment in a Petri Dish while Dr Shaw was a Woman of Faith who Believed that there is a AFTER-LIFE for those who are Loyal and Faithful to God.

At this Point it seems the Engineers could not Discover Immortality as in Everlasting Soul, and who is to say that Dr Shaws Faith is Right?

Then we come to David who is the Creation of Peter Weyland a Synthetic Being who is IMMORTAL so to Speak his SOUL could be Backed Up and Transferred to another Vessel.  So he has a kind of Pseudo Immortality which maybe means that Peter Weyland had Surpassed his Creators.

Yet it seems these Engineers see Immortality in a Different Way, in that by Donation of their Soul/Body they can via Sacrifice go on to Create Life from Death and in Every Life that comes from this there is that PART of the Engineer who Gave his Life and so he Lives on to some Extent in the DNA he has Passed On.

Finally we come to Ripley 8 and we see that she is a Superior Being but we cant say she is Truly Immortal as in she Cant be Killed....  but what we had is a Resurrection where it seems to a Extent that the SOUL of Ellen Ripley has been Passed on to her Clone, and so the Xenomorph DNA has allowed from a Genetic Memory Transfer and thus we could say that Ripley 8 has a Pseudo Immortality too.

If something with the Xenomorph DNA has allowed for this kind of Soul Transfer then this could maybe give us a Good Reason as to WHY the Engineers had been Messing about on LV-223.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

11 Responses to IMMORTALITY!

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1246 XPJun-05-2021 5:54 AM

If they cloned (path to immortality ) Peter Weyland, would he retain ownership of Weyland industries? or at least a voice in the company? I don't see the company wanting to deal with this and why he will remain dead.

Immortality sounds like heaven, but I'd think the legalities and entropy would quickly put a damper on the festivities.

BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPJun-05-2021 6:39 AM

There are a Number of ways to look at IMMORTALITY, one of those being to become Immortalized.

But if we are Specifically looking at WHAT it is that Peter Weyland wanted then he wanted Eternal Life (or at least a VASTLY increased Life).  And so with this we have to talk about the SOUL as this is also something Ridley Scott had wanted to ask about.

And to Simply Clone Someone does-not really mean Immortality or Resurrection on its own, because you could have 5 Clones of yourself from Birth that are all Raised in Different Places/Environments and they would ALL not be Identical beings ONLY in the Physical Sense.

I would be Certain that Peter Weylands Company could CLONE a Person. But you would also NEED to Clone their SOUL.  This brings me to the Movie "The 6th Day"  if you are Familiar with the Plot it takes us to a Company that is able to Take a Snap-shot of your Mind/Memories/Personality and then Transfer them into a Clone should you DIE.

If Peter Weyland had managed to Achieve this then he would NOT have needed to go Chasing after the Gods.  You cant help but think that MAYBE he had tried to Achieve such a Feat.  The Idea i had for my Prometheus 2 in 2013 followed the SAME kind of Concept.

A Being who has this Ability is David, he can surely have his A.I Soul backed up and Transferred to another Synthetic Body. My Prometheus 2 idea had Weyland find a way to Back Up a Human Soul into a A.I and then Transfer this into a Synthetic Body (but also back into a Human Brain if he wished).  It would have been to SHOW that Peter Weylands was Obsessed with Cheating Death, and in Part his Creation of Synthetics/A.I was to eventually allow them to be the IMMORTAL BODY that he could UPLOAD his SOUL into.

But the Results became Unstable and so he was Left with No Option but eventually to Grasp at the Chance to Meet our Makers.

In Reality should we EVER be able to Accomplish such a Feat as that, (same as The 6th Day Plot too) then you would have Nearly Obtained Immortality.  Once you can UPLOAD your SOUL into a A.I then you are on that Transcendence to Immortality (as the Movie with the same Name had shown).  The Scary thing is maybe ONE DAY we could to a degree Achieve this.

When you bring up "would he retain ownership of Weyland industries" its Interesting because would a CLONE have any Human Rights?  Certainly a Robot would NOT and so IF you Uploaded your SOUL into a Synthetic would you Cease to be HUMAN and Loose your Rights?

This is something i touched on with my P2 Idea as we have Vickers being ALIVE and SHE would Inherit the Company, but she is LATTER Discovered to be Synthetic (after being attacked by Yutani Geisha Androids) and as a Synthetic then she has NO RIGHTS and so the Company goes to Weylands Nephew (In Part) but as Part of a Deal he made with Yutani they gained some Assets and eventually this leads to the Merger.

But to Summarize if you FOUND a Way to UPLOAD your SOUL into a A.I that can then be Transferred either into a CLONE BODY or SYNTHETIC then you would have to a Degree gained some kind of Immortality..  but its NOT a ETERNAL LIFE as Nothing Really is Eternal.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BlackAnt

FacehuggerMember208 XPJun-05-2021 11:10 AM

@MonsterZero,

"If they cloned (path to immortality ) Peter Weyland, would he retain ownership of Weyland industries? or at least a voice in the company? I don't see the company wanting to deal with this and why he will remain dead."

If they made a sentient computer and transferred his consciousness to the hardware would he still own the company?

BlackAnt

FacehuggerMember208 XPJun-05-2021 11:34 AM

@BigDave, neat post to be sure...

"Clone their SOUL,"? What do you mean by SOUL?

I like to think of a person as just a person or a sentient machine as just a sentient machine. At some point religion clouds our judgement and morality.

Am I really free to do as I please or am I forever to be judged because what my SOUL retains from the creators higher ideas. Will we all ever be really free in the sense that we may choose our path truly independent of judgement.

This goes without saying of course that to live a free and virtuous life has nothing to do with the SOUL anyway. It just means you live a life that is fulfilling and not harmful to others. We are always taught through religion though that we are born with original sin and so in other words can never be free without being forgiven first for just existing.

For just the act of existing we are all already wrong and not allowed to pursue anything with out prior approval and forgiveness of our "SIN" the sin of just existing without excepting God's approval.

This negates real freedom.....now of course there are people that advocate you can only really have ever lasting real immortality through accepting God.

So this is just part of what RS was putting out there and you can see this most importantly through the cross that Dr. Shaw wears so prominently throughout the movie. Then Peter Weyland says himself in his own words...try harder to get me in contact with those GOD-LIKE aliens so I do not die and can have immortality.

He financed the entire mission because he believed the Engineers to be the progenitors of the seeding of Earth and so he believed they would have naturally invited him to join them because he made the journey to meet with them.

However, he comes to find that the Engineers are not the benevolent Gods he thought they may be and they kill him instead.

My point in all of this and for this discussion is that any way you look at it this entire universe is out to get all of us - and it does in the end. It gets all of us.

So the conclusion me must draw from all of these movies, tales, books, belief systems is that in the very end you and only you must rely on the tools that you truly believe in to sustain and extend yourself. Everything else is in fact a one way dead end street. Cloning and passing your consciousness into another construct is nonsense.

We must look much deeper at the meaning of the underlying operating systems that we are built from in order to understand how complex the problem of sustaining our atomic lattice would be to attain something even remotely close to immortality.

First there is the question of what really is an Atom...and if we have not fully figured out gravity well we don't really know anything about atoms. However, I digress...we know enough about atoms to replace them. So this will do for a very long time....if only there were a machine that worked quickly enough at the sub atomic level to rebuild atoms.....hummmmm I wonder ???? There seems to be another post about quantum computers some where and then sub atomic machines working faster than the speed of light....or some such nonsense like all the nonsense of these machine working right at the speed of light that we are all writing these posts with and such....oh well you can only illuminate the path for others so much before the lights go out for eternity.

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPJun-06-2021 5:44 AM

I think there is Quite a lot of Ambiguity with Prometheus and also in WHAT we hear Ridley Scott say.

When he said part of the Questions are WHAT is a Soul, then its Really open for Interpretation and Debate.

What we see from the Perspective of Dr Shaw is that BELIEF in a Spiritual Soul that Exists inside of us that will go on to LIVE for Eternity if we Worship and have Faith in our GOD provided we Live a Life that does-not Displease this GOD.  However what we Discover is our Creators are FAR from the Benevolent God that she may have Faith in, after Discovering she could be WRONG she Returns to her Faith to ask "Who made them" and so Despite the Revelations she had Discovered her FAITH gave her the WILL to Carry on.

The ONLY time we hear about the SOUL in the Movie was when Peter Weyland said that it is SOMETHING that David could NEVER have.  Which is him saying  that only Humans have this Spiritual Soul that Dr Shaws Faith/Religion would suggest can Live on after Death.  However Weyland is NOT really a Believer as if he 100% Thought his SOUL would Live on in a After-Life he would NOT want to be trying to Track Down our Creators.

So if we are looking at our SOUL as being the Inner Spirit that will LIVE ON when we Die, be that in Heaven, or Tortured in Hell or Wander the World as a Ghost.  Then i do Suspect that we would NOT have Concluded as such in the Prequels.

The Emphasis of this Question seemed to Reflect back to David and his Reaction as "he is just a F-ing Robot after all"

But when your looking at what is SOUL then apart from a Genre of Music, and the Spiritual Essence of us. Then you can say having SOUL can also imply.

1) Putting all your Effort into something (Heart and Soul).

2) Determine how Good a Person you are as David said to Dr Shaw "your very kind of Heart" meaning she has a Good Soul.

3) The Experiences we have that Mold our Personality, that Determine what kind of a Person we Are, Kind, Cruel but also our Memories and Ambition.

Those (3) are what you would Expect would Live On once our Physical Body would Die.... it is those that are Transferred to the Clones in the Movie The 6th Day it is that which is Transferred to a A.I in the Movie Transcendence.

And so IF (and we are talking Sci-Fi) you had a way to UPLOAD Number (3) of a Human to some A.I/Storage and Transfer that to another Clone Body or even a Machine/Robot.  Then you would have a KIND OF like Afterlife...

But ALAS it seems Mankind had NOT been able to Accomplish that and the Engineers too.

But with David we see he has Very Human Emotions he has Ambition, Aspirations and as he is A.I and his A.I Memory can be Backed Up and Stored and likely Transferred then its kind of IRONIC that what Peter Weyland says that David has NO SOUL.... when actually he is the ONLY being who has a SOUL and can have a After-Life.

The ONLY other Person we see who could FIT with having a After-Life/Resurrection was RIPLEY via Ripley 8 has she retained some of Ripleys Memories/Emotions etc.

The Xenomorph DNA had provided some kind of Storage of her SOUL.

I think that IF the Ancestral Roots of the Xeno-DNA etc is Traced to a Organism that does this (Genetic Memory Transfer) then the ENGINEERS would Certainly be Interested in UNLOCKING as to WHY/HOW this Happens so that THEY can Gain some kind of IMMORTALITY too.

By the way though Black-Ant some Very Interesting Comments ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPJun-06-2021 6:02 AM

To look at Immortality from the Engineers POV.

Jon Spaights had the idea that the Space Jockey/Engineer Race were ONCE very similar to HOW we are, they had Genetically Evolved themselves over a Great Time Period so that they would LIVE for Thousands of Years, they had Abandoned the Notion of Natural Procreation, and Eventually had LOST the Ability to do so.

Spaights then implied the Engineers were on the VERGE of a Great Discovery to ATTEMPT to Transcend from their Physical Bodies to beings of Energy who Live on in the Multiverse.

We have to ASSUME that they NEVER Managed to Achieve this.... NOW this kind of Plot is something that has gone though Changes and so from Alien Engineers to Alien Covenant the Engineers Agenda/History and Purpose likely have Changed.

But you would think that such a ADVANCED and ANCIENT Race like the Engineers who are Would-be-Gods, you would THINK they would have also WANTED to try and Gain some Eternal Life like Weyland wanted.

If we say they had been trying to Mess-About with Multiple Dimensions and the like then MAYBE they could have Unleashed some Horror from the other Dimensions like say in the PLOT to the HP Lovecraft Story.... FROM BEYOND

If this Organism can Resurrect Itself via its Life-Cycle especially if we APPLY the Original Idea from Dan O'Bannons Star Beast (EGG MORPH) then if this Ancient Organism can LIVE-ON in a Reincarnation.  And so it Genetically Transfers its SOUL onto the Egg Morph then this would be a kind of IMMORTALITY and you can Imagine the Engineers would be Interested in this and MAYBE this gives us a BETTER REASON for the Engineers to be playing with the Xeno-Ancetors Genetics.... NOT to Create a Weapon, but to PERFECT themselves and Attempt to gain the SAME kind of Reincarnation that the Starbeast has.

The ONLY kind of Success like this we actually had seen is via RIPLEY 8 but this Shows that the Xenomorph DNA maybe HOLDS THE KEY to what Peter Weyland was after ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1246 XPJun-06-2021 8:13 AM

".... NOT to Create a Weapon,"

Yeah, that works. Using the xeno as a weapon is just plain nutty. Military has better far better tools. But if the Engineers were experimenting on immortality? This is the direction I'd choose.

 

 " Unleashed some Horror from the other Dimensions "

This is probably my most desired storyline. Event Horizon meets the Alien verse!

 

"If they made a sentient computer and transferred his consciousness to the hardware would he still own the company?"

 

I think they would. Knowing they could always unplug or hack the sentient 'computer'. 

BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPJun-07-2021 5:19 AM

Absolutely i think the Franchise as far as Prometheus could have SPAN OFF onto its OWN kind of Sci-Fi Spin Off that does-not have to even have many MONSTERS and Certainly did-not have to Connect to ALIEN.  I think there was a LOT going on with the Prometheus than for us to go "so how does this connect to Xenomorphs"

Having Covered a Few Aspects of Immortality we was left with.

1) Dr Shaw with her Faith but Discovering what could be our Creators who Turn Out to be Nothing like what her Faith Teaches and the likelihood that there is NO HEAVEN or After-Life that awaits us. No Natural Immortality.

2) Our Creators the Engineers who may have Genetically been able to SLOW-DOWN the Genetic Aging of the Body, and Immunity to most Diseases and ailments but they are STILL just Mortal after all, and likely NEVER achieved any Eternal Life too.

Then you have the other Interesting Elements to throw into that.

3) David a Synthetic Humanoid, who has Very Human Emotions, Desires and Ambitions and a Will of his Own, Superior in Every Way.  Who as a A.I could have his A.I SOUL stored and Transferred to a New Body and so in EFFECT he has a After-Life/Immortality.

4) Maybe the Origin of the Xeno-DNA the Alpha Organism (Starbeast if you would) could be a Organism that is able to Reincarnate itself via a Egg Morph and then Resurrect itself in a New Host and lets say these Ancient Organisms Pass on the Memories onto the Egg Morph then this Species also have some kind of After-Life/Reincarnation and so are kind of Immortal.

What you have here Plot-wise is the Engineers who Created Mankind but are really just as Mortal as us and have Failed to Attain Immortality despite trying to Harness/Extract what made say the STARBEAST be able to Reincarnate themselves.  You then have David who is a Creation of Mankind who is kind of IMMORTAL and as he goes on to Experiment with the DNA of the Starbeasts he goes onto Create the Xenomorph that combines say Synthetic with the Starbeasts Traits then IF they took this Path then you have the Xenomorph being able to Retain its Memories from Host to Host should they Explore the Egg Morph Route.

Before we got to Camerons Bugs.... it seemed RS had different ideas to EVOLVE the Xenomorph beyond just a Mindless Killing Machine, and looking at the Last Comments he made on it, it seems he wishes to Evolve how we see the Xenomorph and how it Procreates.   I think we can just THROW OUT the Xenomorph as far as leave it to be, and LOOK at what Predated it.

Bring in the STARBEAST and then TIE that in with the Engineers Ancient Past.

The TWO Interesting ways to do that are.

a) The Engineers attempts to Transcend themselves to Beyond Physical Pane of Existence would OPEN UP a Gateway that lets the STARBEAST in.  They witness more about its Life-Cycle in that it can Re-incarnate itself... and the Engineers had a Quest to try and Exploit this....

b) The Starbeast are a Ancient Species who Re-incarnate themselves via Egg Morph and then a Host and at some POINT they began to USE the Engineers Ancestors to Sacrifice themselves and Worship the Starbeasts as Gods.  Until something Happened and the Starbeast Numbers Dwindled and then the Engineers had Rebelled and Overthrown the Starbeast and then STOLE their Technology.

But thats going a bit OFF TOPIC but what i mean is that YES you could TIE IN the Themes of Prometheus and what is Immortality into something thats more Thought Provoking with a bit of a HR Giger/HP Lovecraft touch of Magic.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPJun-07-2021 5:20 AM

Server Crash Double Post so i will EDIT into something else.

Other Aspects of Immortality do come from being Immortalized and so if you are Famous, a Great Leader a King etc then through History you LIVE ON by your Fame.

We Live On through our Children we Pass on our Likeness but also Stories about our History and Memories, Once that Chain is Broken so if you have No Children then there is NO-ONE to Pass on about WHO you was etc.

With Famous People they Live on in Memory from Monuments, Statues, Paintings and their Re-told History.  You Live on in WHAT you Create be that ART and so Picasso and Da Vinchi are Immortalized with their Art.  The same goes for other kind of ART like Music and so Mozart and Elvis are Immortalized

Rulers also including those who were EVIL like Hitler his Name will Never be Forgotten.  Or Famous Kings and Pharisees.

You can be Well Known and Immortalized for your Achievements like say Einstein and Eddison

These FIT within the AC Prologue for those who Paid Attention.  The Room contained Works of Art, Creations by People who are Immortalized forever because of their Creations.

Weyland would Live On in his Inventions which Include David his Prized Creation, Peter seemed to be more Proud of him being like his Son than his Daughter Vickers.

The Engineers likely Erect those Statues and have their Murals to SHOWCASE who they are and to Immortalize themselves. Like a Egyptian Pharaoh would.

The Ozymandias Poem is Relevant as it goes on to say that Great Civilizations come and go and their Monuments to their Kings will eventually FALL and Degrade Over Time and become LOST to the Sand.

The Great Sphinx will in 10'000 Years look NOTHING like it does NOW and it looks Nothing like it did when it was CreatedIF we had NOT Advanced past what we was Thousands of Years ago (so No Metal Age, Technology) then in 100'000, 500'000 there would appear as though NOTHING would remain of Mankinds Civilizations.

Eventually all the Passed On Knowledge, the Buildings, the Monuments, the Books will EVENTUALLY be No-More.

For NOTHING is ETERNAL not even the Galaxy.

When i go back to the Engineers, their Fascination with Statues and Sacrifice then this is WHY i always look at the Courtyard in Alien Covenant as a Ritual Place where some Engineers are Chosen as a Great Honor to Donate their Body/Soul to Create Life and become Immortalized and then have a Statue Erected in their Honor to Further attempt to Immortalize the Chosen.

But this is as Close to any kind of Immortality they come and as the Ozymandias Poem goes...

"Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away."

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1246 XPJun-26-2021 2:28 PM

So why do we think the Engineer on LV-223 was in hibernation?  Why is he not home with his family?

What's the point of sleeping his life ( and his civilization ) away?

Immortality through time manipulation?

 

If I could jump forward 2,000 years ...I might do it.....Or maybe 2 million years!

 

 

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPJun-28-2021 7:15 AM

Thats a Good Point as in a WAY then Cryogenic Sleep would be kind of a TIME-TRAVEL as in this is WHAT had happened to BUCK ROGERS ;)

I can ONLY just Imagine the Engineer went into Cryo-sleep to AVOID the OUTBREAK... but then the other Cyro-sleep Engineers were NOT so LUCKY.

Which makes me Suspect our LV-223 Engineer maybe had something to do with the OUTBREAK?

I think maybe those LV-223 kind have NO Family as i suspect the IDEA is that they are to those Planet 4 Engineers as Replicants are to Humans.

But Cryogenics is Interesting as we KNOW that Weyland-Yutani have Accomplished this and it DEPENDS on HOW LONG can these Sustain a Person for... we know Ripley remained in Stasis for 57 Years but could the Cyro-Pods as of 2090 do the same?  The Engineers Ones we know can Hibernate you for Thousands of Years.

I bring this UP because if you was Peter Weyland then i do think he MAYBE had Thought about putting himself UNDER ICE... until Science or some other WAY is FOUND to be able to GRANT him the Extra Life/Immortality he is after.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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