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Engineering Prometheus – From Jon Spaihts to Damon Lindelof

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Thoughts_Dreams

XenomorphMember1490 XPApr-02-2021 1:34 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sUTB8UIJBI

Made by AVP-galaxy, check it out. I like to listen to the making of the movie, but the Prometheus itself leaves a lot to be desired. This is not to say that Prometheus is totally garbage, but it could have been so much better if they would have left a lot of the cut scenes in.

6 Responses to Engineering Prometheus – From Jon Spaihts to Damon Lindelof

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPApr-07-2021 7:13 AM

I think there was a LOT of Evolution going on from WHERE they at FOX was thinking, to what Spaights had then given in his Pitch...  A lot of Emphasis seemed to be on the Engineers, it maybe is a case that FOX felt that the Xenomorph should play a ROLE...

Spaights had some Background with the Engineers and Mankind that would SPAN to FAR before our Xenomorph came into Play... which seemed to be that came about as some kind of PLAN to deal with Humanity who had became a Concern/Threat to the Engineers at some point.

We dont have the Full Alien 01 Master Narrative or any of Spaights First TWO Drafts... we are made aware that the 4th (Alien Engineers) is a Evolution of the 3rd.

The Impression i get with Alien Engineers and Alien Genesis is they are a PRELUDE to exploring the Engineers more in a Sequel rather than bringing us to ALIEN and Xenomorphs. I get the impression its a Introduction to HOW the Xenomorphs came to be and then we would be going where David and Watts/Shaw would be going.

What we have to REMEMBER is when making a Prequel, that they would be TIED DOWN to a Run-Time and so when you are going to the FINAL STAGE of what to Shoot you have to ask WHAT are we showing and WHERE are we going Next.

So if we have some Big Background Story/Plot about the Engineers and History that is NOT that Fleshed out in Alien Engineers/Genesis.... we have our Would Be Gods and Creation which we play a Role...

We have the Xenomorph which is some Experimental Biological Warfare that was to be USED on Mankind... but resulted in the Space Jockey event...

So they had to look at WHAT is the BIGGER Picture here and the Xenomorph seemed merely a Engineered Bio-Weapon.  With a Sequel do they then Explain WHY this Weapons was Created in more Detail? Do they show MORE of this Weapon? Do they Spoon Feed the Space Jockey Story more?

Or are there other THEMES/PLOT that should be Explored?

If you took ALIEN ENGINEERS etc and gave more Detail into the Xenomorph Origins and those Experiments on LV-426 then there are other NONE Xenomorph parts that would have to be Dropped or Cut  Back.

The Question is then..... WHERE NEXT?

After you have more Xenomorphs than in Alien Engineers, after you have the ORIGINS of them and WHEN/HOW they got on the Derelict (Alien Engineers teases this but its FLAWED.... it simply contradicts LV-426).

It seemed that the BIGGER PICTURE would be the Engineers and their Reasons for Creation...  and so THEY came to a point and FELT that THIS is what the should Concentrate more on and SET-UP to Explore more in Sequels...

We have after all seen the Xenomorph OVER and OVER.. and ONCE you have the ORIGINS shown its WHERE NEXT?

Each Incarnation seemed to be more about the Engineers than Xenomorph and WHEN they decided to get Lindeloff in to HELP to Rework the Story then he said they should  Concentrate more on the other PARTS of the Plot than the Xenomorph.

The Xenomorph was REMOVED and Connections were TONED DOWN... i think in Part it was the Right Move... but it was TONED DOWN too much.

We Ended Up with a MESS of Ambiguity...

Prometheus was the RIGHT IDEA... it just NEEDED to have a bit more of a Connection/Clue to ALIEN so that the DOOR to ALIEN could be Closed..... but the Story and Execution of Lindeloffs Paradise was also FLAWED.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPApr-07-2021 7:35 AM

I will add that Lindeloff is OFTEN used as a Scapegoat there are others at FOX who Pull the Strings and also Ridley Scott wanted more Ambiguity and with Ambiguity does come Discussion and Debate... if Prometheus was NOT at all Ambiguous and Spoon Fed there would be FAR LESS to talk about and the ALIEN  Section of this Website and others would have FAR Less Topics/Debate.

But what we got was TOO AMBIGUOUS.

The General Public and Casual Fans would NOT know HOW this Connects to ALIEN some would have Expected a Movie that Connects to ALIEN that is SET within the same Universe to have more of a Connection.

The Movie Needed more Clues.... it did-not have to SPOON FEED us... or have Xenomorphs it just Needed to have more Clues/Connective Tissue...

This would have Required a LONGER Run-Time... the Deleted Scenes do ADD some Meat to the Bones but they Mainly add more to the Engineers and Change HOW we could Interpret them.

I did do a EDIT that i Lost... which added a few Elements of Alien Engineers, plus some of my Own Scenes/Extensions.

But this kind of Edit would have made the Movie 35-40 Min Longer...

In HINDSIGHT...

Ive said this before....

FOX should have Followed up with a Exploration/Recovery Mission to LV-223 which would be more ALIENY, more so than Alien Engineers and could have given enough Clues to the Xenomorph and LV-426 while having a BIT of Ambiguity and would have CLOSED the Door to ALIEN.

They then would have FREEDOM to go where David and Dr Shaw are going and look more at the Engineers rather than to Sacrifice them and TRY and give us a NEW Origin Story of the Xenommorph.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPApr-08-2021 6:33 AM

I think its a SHAME that there was  a LOT that could have came about from the Engineers Plot... as EVENTUALLY going for Xenomorph after Xenomorph or similar would RUN OUT OF STEAM!

Looking at what LITTLE we know about Alien 01 Pitch to Alien Engineers, what i can Summarize is the Following.

They had Millions of Years ago been Very Similar to Mankind, they had Evolved Technologically and Genetically to a point BEYOND what we are NOW... they became Intergalactic Space Travelers they had Managed to find ways to Prevent/Stop various Diseases and Ailments and Found a way to Prolong their Lives.

Their Culture and Religion had Changed so that things like Music and Art and Entertainment as it is Seen/Used and Evolved by Mankind over the Last 2000 Years, was something the Engineers had GROWN out of Favor with so they Do-Not view such Arts and Entertainment as we do but they maybe HAD at some point.

They became Focused on Science and Advancement, and took up Engineering other Species after they had Engineered/Evolved themselves to such a HIGH LEVEL.

They were not Preoccupied with other Things that Civilizations would see as a Important part of their being. Certain things that would bring Pleasure and Entertainment where likely Shunned...

Food is Food its basis is to sustain Life its Purpose is to give us Energy to use to Live.  And so they maybe took a Simplistic look at it like that....  (In Space Food Ration Protein Slop is all thats Needed, not a Fancy Banquet).

So they Likely took a similar Stance to other forms of Pleasure/Entertainment.... which includes SEX... which at its Basis is there to Procreate... simple as THAT....  No SEX, then No Procreation!

And so  as a Advanced Species then you could Procreate without SEX... we can do that NOW all we Need is a Sperm Cell and Egg Cell and then we get Test-tube Babies.. in Future we could Incubate Fetus like this... so we would NOT need SEX.

And so at some point i think again the Engineers looked at SEX as being the WAY to Procreate and ONCE they Found a way to do this without the Act of SEX then they saw NO POINT in having SEX and so they Abandoned it.

So i Suspect they GREW out of the NEED/WANT for Certain things and looked at them at their Basics. A Cultural Change of their Ways....

Eventually being a Race who have Engineered themselves to Live for Thousands and Thousands of Years and Procreate without SEX... then eventually then YES their Species could become STERILE...

It seems they was NOT Content with this and they was looking at Gaining some kind of IMMORTALITY some way to Transcend their SOULS to Beyond the Limitations of a Mortal Body/Vessel.    If they had BELIEVED they was so CLOSE to achieving this then they would NOT be Concerned about how they can NO LONGER go and Procreate.. who Needs to Procreate their Numbers if you can become IMMORTAL.

In the Meantime they began to Seed/Evolve Life on other Worlds, even Creating Races that are similar to themselves as they were maybe Millions of Years ago...  MANKIND being one such Creation.

They would VISIT and Nurture these Creations, watch them become Civilizations, Pass on Limited Knowledge and Arts.

Once the Engineers had gained that Transcendence to Godhood that they wanted.. to become Beings who are NOT of Flesh and Blood... they maybe would then allow some Civilizations they Created more of their Knowledge that is NO-LONGER required for beings who are NOW Beyond a Pane of Existence that Mortals have.

THEN.................

Something had Happened to Cause them to View Humanity as a Problem, a Threat maybe?

The Engineers likely NEVER achieved the Transcendence they Desired... they would REMAIN as Mortal, and while they LIVE for Thousands of Years, they can be KILLED and will eventually DIE and being Unable to Procreate they KNOW that their Species will EVENTUALITY go and Disappear.

They maybe saw that some of the Civilizations they Created and Nurtured had shown Signs of Evolving at a Quicker Rate that had taken the Engineers Millions of Years, due to the Fact the Engineers had Engineered and Passed On Knowledge to these Creations..

The FEAR would be there, the Realization that their Creations could MAYBE at some point in Future also Advance and take to the STARS and Gain the Engineers Secrets.

Its likely their Creations had began to LIVE in ways that are AGAINST the Ways the Engineers had turned their BACKS on.  They would Pervert the Basic Knowledge, Arts and Music, they would Pervert the Basic Need to Procreate.  Maybe these Species also showed signs of coming up with their own STORIES, and Mythos, or seeing the Engineers as NOT being so Godlike....

This would be a Concern... and the Engineers likely would VISIT these Worlds from Time to Time, and in the Case of Earth then things could have GROWN really out of Control.

They could have sent down Messengers or Emissaries to try to PUT us back on Track and Steer us AWAY from Vices, and Beliefs or anything that was AGAINST what the Engineers would EXPECT from us....

But we would NOT change our Ways or Accept the Ways of the Engineers, and then IF we would then Punish and Execute or Sacrifice these Emissaries then that would be the FINAL STRAW for the Engineers.

AT THIS POINT...

The Engineers would have THREE things on their Minds.

1) Failing to Gain Immortality do they Still Pursue another way to Achieve this?

2) Do they begin to Concentrate on a WAY that they can Regain the ability to Procreate?

3) They would look at a way they can Eradicate any Worlds/Civilizations they see as a THREAT and Rebellious.

THIS.....

Is likely when the Began their Experiments and the USE of their OUTPOSTS on LV-426 (latter Changed to LV-223)  maybe these Experiments were taken in the HOPE of Achieving (1) and (2) but they Certainly had Created something they could USE to Achieve (3).

And so (3) would relate/connect to the Xenomorph but is ONLY a SMALL Part of the Overall Plot/History of the Engineers.

The Xenomorph to them is maybe just as a Assault Riffle is to us... its a Evolution of the Black Powder that can be USED as a Weapon....   Black Powder became a GAME CHANGER in Warfare on Earth.

But their is MORE to Mankind than our Discovery, Invention of Black Powder and the Evolution of Weapons that have came from it.

And so in Context to the Engineers the Xenomorph was again MERELY a Engineered/Evolved Weapon...

And so THIS... is what they THOUGHT about between Alien Engineers and Prometheus that actually their is something BIGGER that you can Explore with the Engineers Plot than merely OH THEY CREATE XENOMORPHS as Weapons of War/Pest Control.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPApr-15-2021 6:26 AM

I think if we look back at WHAT has Changed from Inception to Prometheus (talking prior to Alien Covenant)

The Alien 01 Master Narrative had NEVER been released in Full, so we can only take Little from it, which i had attempted in my previous Post.

The ONLY link to ALIEN we see in what LITTLE we have of the Master Narrative is that the Engineers went from  viewing Mankind as a Nurtured Race to becoming a Problem and that the Engineers then had began to ADDRESS this Problem which Resulted in what was going on at LV-426/LV-223

We then come to ALIEN ENGINEERS which had covered a Little of the Engineers Creation/Seeding Process which was about Sacrificing themselves to Nano-Scarabs that would CONSUME/STORE the Engineers DNA which these Scarabs then PASS ON by Biting a Organism and this INFECTS the Target in a way that they Mutate into a Hybrid of their own DNA and that of whatever the Scarabs had been Storing (in this case Engineer DNA).

When it comes down to the OUTPOST/SHIP what we get the Impression of is that  in some Cave/Cavern System there are some kind of Parasitic Organisms that are Growing.  This Organism has some Traits that are Familiar with the Xenomorph but Different

Inside the Complex we see there are URNS and in these are Scarabs, only they INFECT a Host (Fifield) with something that Mutates him into a Hybrid with Xenomorph Traits. We have to ASSUME those Scarabs had OBTAINED the DNA from something that is related to the Xenomorph or a Precursor to it.

We do see the Hammerpede which is more like a Centipede with NO real Explanation for it....

We then have David come across some Eggs on the Juggernaught, from these we have Face Huggers described as more Armored than what we saw prior (Holloways Encounter) David informs us these are Weaponized/Evolved Experiments and that the SHIP has 7 other Variants.

What we can CONCLUDE from this is the Engineers had been Experimenting with some Organism related to the Xenomorph, and Creating Hybrids of it.. It is POSSIBLE that what Holloway had Encountered was some Native Organism or maybe Obtained and taken to LV-426.  And the Engineers would USE their Creation/Evolution Tool (Scarabs) to Obtain the DNA of this Organism that Holloway Encountered and to then ALLOW the Engineers to MIX this DNA with Various Species to Create/Engineer the Xenomorphs..  The Engineers were essentially doing SIMILAR to what  David had done on Planet 4.

So in CONTEXT to the Changes when we get to Prometheus we have the SCARABS replaced by the Black Goo (which may be Nano-Worm like Parasites) but the Basis is still the same... it is LIKELY the Engineers had encountered a Organism and USED the Black Goo on it to Create various Hybrids.

ONLY they felt we DID-NOT need to see any Xenomorphs, that by showing some Traits within the Infection of the Black Goo on the Worms/Hammerpedes and via Dr Shaws Fetus/Trilobite that leads to the Deacon via Face Hugging the Engineer.   And Fifields infection then we have ENOUGH clues to show the Engineers have something in those URNS that is Connected to the Xenomorph in some way.

FIFIELD had some Alternative Designs that looked more ALIEN and Connected to the Deacon/Hammerpede.  And so going for the Toxic Avenger Zombie Fifield gave us something that had NOTHING really that Connected to the Xenomorph, Deacon etc (the Neomorph we could make a Connection).

I think they Missed the BOAT in NOT having FIFIELD being more Xenomorph Connected... but also with NO clear Pay Off with the Hammerpede...  (in my Edit, they would SHOOT the Hammerpede and we see it open up and Small Eggs would Pour Out.... these look a little like those in ALIEN..... then latter Milburn would Chest Burst something like the Babyhead... something that is similar to what the New Born Neomorph Bursters were like......

THIS would make a Connection more between the Deacon, Xenomorph and Hammerpedes... in that we see the Hammerpede is a Variant of the Face Hugger and Trilobite.....

The Resulting Milburn Burster would attack Dr Shaw and someone who accompanies her on the RUN..., she would SHOOT it and it would SPRAY ACID BLOOD... she would then Continue to make her RUN to leave the Hanger.

A more Xenomorph related Fifield would also ADD to more of a Connection to the Xenomorph....

Prometheus had TONED DOWN too much.. but Alien Engineers was Too Much ALIENY... it Needed to be like 60% Prometheus, 25% more Alieny like Alien Engineers and 15% of Extras to TIE them in Together... but also the Ambiguity needed to be Reduced by say 25%

But then thats the OVERALL Plot... the Bigger Problems was the Writing of Characters, Dialog and Execution... but this has been a Problem with Alien Covenant and Alien Resurrection too.

As it stands the PREQUELS had become a Disappointment to Many, they also had such POTENTIAL... but its likely in 10 Years Time they would go down as NOT being Canon and a Forgotten Memory that Soured the Tastes of the Fandom.

I am NOT even  sure they would Reboot the Prequels.. the Xenomorph Origins and the Space Jockey are a POISONED CHALICE to anyone who thinks they can give a Explanation that will PLEASE everyone.

In Hindsight the MOST POWERFUL and Enigmatic Scene in the Franchise (Derelict/Pilot Chamber and Egg Chamber) should have REMAINED a Mystery.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

XenomorphMember1490 XPMay-24-2021 3:42 AM

What if they don't get the Engineers right in the first place? You can't expect people to find things out in a sequel if the first one doesn't work. If you plan a series of movies you got to make it work the first time otherwise you're screwed. I don't say that it's impossible but it's risky but at least the prequels got messed up in their execution even though the ideas are interesting. There are things that I like in the prequels, I don't try to totally bash them and that that they are total crap.

How bout an Engineer spin-off? If Star Wars can have Rogue One then why not Alien? They need good writers and a director that doesn't play god and throws in dumb ideas.

“With a Sequel do they then Explain WHY this Weapons was Created in more Detail? Do they show MORE of this Weapon? Do they Spoon Feed the Space Jockey Story more?”

Those things should be hinted at and not overtly explained but they can't be too ambiguous either otherwise we will get a Prometheus. I don't totally blame Lindelof but he caused some trouble. Prometheus should have had more of Spaights and less ambiguity/Lindelof-isms.

I don't mind that they focused more on the Engineers and less on the Xenos. We already had six Xeno-movies before. The explanation should have been better in Prometheus, more A to D and less ambiguity which doesn't mean to throw out all the mystery. Alien is boring if everything is explained.

I hope that they keep the Engineers, even the guys at the Xenomorphing podcast said in their Prometheus episode that they would like to see more of them. More Engineers please, less David and even less of the monsters if they get the Engineers right.

Prometheus creates discussions, which is fine but unfortunately there is a lot of crap in it also. Sometimes we get discussions that are “well, that sucked and why did they do that?” not “Oh this is interesting. Why did they do that?” It depends on what kind of discussions there are and why. Unfortunately the why tends to be that a lot of it wasn't done well.

“But this kind of Edit would have made the Movie 35-40 Min Longer…”
So? I would rather have a good movie that is a bit longer rather than something that is cut for run-time and where things don't make sense/look dumb.
You mention where Shaw and David would go next. My problem is that Shaw was dumb and annoying, maybe she would have been more like in The Crossing which would have been fine but they needed to get her right in the introduction/early in the movie otherwise we get what we got.

“In the Meantime they began to Seed/Evolve Life on other Worlds, even Creating Races that are similar to themselves as they were maybe Millions of Years ago... MANKIND being one such Creation.”

This is something that I would have liked to see more of. We got a hint of it in the beginning of Prometheus with the guy with the cake. Unfortunately they didn't have any text to it so the point gets lost, duh.

“They maybe saw that some of the Civilizations they Created and Nurtured had shown Signs of Evolving”

Which is like David and Weyland but the Engineer part is more interesting. Never had any interesting the Weyland character but if they would have had that TED-talk in there he would have been better.

“This would be a Concern... and the Engineers likely would VISIT these Worlds from Time to Time, and in the Case of Earth then things could have GROWN really out of Control.”

I would have liked to see that, engineers that go to war against their creations. We don't need a full battle-movie but parts of it.

“And so in Context to the Engineers the Xenomorph was again MERELY a Engineered/Evolved Weapon…”
Yeah, but I would rather have them being responsible for it rather than David. Unfortunately Scott only seems to be interested in David at least in Covenant which was a disappointment.

“In Hindsight the MOST POWERFUL and Enigmatic Scene in the Franchise (Derelict/Pilot Chamber and Egg Chamber) should have REMAINED a Mystery.”

I agree

Anyone else that wants to add something?

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMay-24-2021 5:59 AM

"where Shaw and David would go next. My problem is that Shaw was dumb and annoying"

She was Annoying because she was so Naive and Stubborn to her Religion, her response to the Evidence by Holloway was "so who Created them" and she also said that "GOD would NOT have tried to Hurt her" and so what we have is a Interesting thing  to PONDER as to IF/WHEN she Discovers her WHOLE Religion and EVERYTHING she Believes in is PROVEN to be FALSE... what does THAT do to her Character and IF she discovers the Engineers are NOT Nice or their Creators or she does-not AGREE with what they do.   Say if the Engineers/Hierarchy are prepared to ALLOW her to STAY but then they are to GO TO EARTH to Destroy the Rest of us..... THEN maybe Dr Shaw would WANT to find a way to DESTROY them.

So her Character could be FIXED... Noomi is a Good Actor....

"Unfortunately they didn't have any text to it so the point gets lost, duh"

Indeed, we have NOT even seen the FULL Scene... the Actor who played the Sacrificial Engineer had a Few Lines that we NEVER saw, there is some dialog on the Blu-ray Extras by the Elder Engineer... no Translation but its shown in the Shot of the Draft... 

"Let your body become the dirt. Your blood become the waters, and may your soul become their way back to us."

So there was a GREAT Importance and Ritual to that Scene and RS had likened it to how the AZTECS would Choose a Sacrifice who would be Treated as a Prince for a Year and then SACRIFICED to the Gods for a Better Harvest and so this means that the Engineers is Sacrificed as a Duty for the Greater Cause of the Engineers which appears to be CREATION.

"Unfortunately Scott only seems to be interested in David at least in Covenant which was a disappointment"

I think that YES it has Reduced the Role of the Xenomorph... i think maybe we could Accept this.... our Xenomorph has had its Good Run Out.... the ONLY way Forwards would be that the Engineers discover those Eggs and see the Potential in them and RE-ENGINEER and Mass-Produce them and THEN they attempt to LOAD them up and GO OFF on a Warpath... but we know what HAPPENS NEXT ;)

And so its Time for something NEW or OLD as it were..... we maybe need to FORGET about our Xenomorph, but then THINK about as to WHY was it the Experiments on LV-223 had a Genetic Connection to the Xenomorph, the Hammerpedes, the Trilobite, the Deacon, the Mural, The Fresco.... the Neomorph!

so what is the Connection?

*Is this JUST what the Goo Does?

*Or is this Something that the Creation Goo was used on to make such Horrors, and so WHAT was the Creature they BEGAN those Experiments on?

*Or does the Creation Goo come from some other Creature/Species we have NOT seen yet?

WHEN/HOW and WHERE did the Engineers get the Sacrificial Goo from?

Getting away from LV-223/426 then the Engineers have likely Seeded and Interacted with MANY Worlds, and NOT only in this Galaxy.

*Have (do they) the Engineers had Conflicts with their OWN KIND?

*Do they have Conflicts with other Creations?

*Have they had Conflicts with other Species that THEY had NOT gone and Created?

*WHO are their Creators?

And so YES there is more that can be Discovered.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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