Alien Movie Universe

The DAVID Dilema

Alien-Covenant.com/forum/
Forum Topic
17593 Views166 Replies

BigDave

MemberDeaconApr-28-2018 5:34 PM

It appears to be a MAJOR sticking point with the Role that David has within the Franchise.  While Micheal Fassbender's Synthetic Companion to Peter Weyland was the Stand Out Character in Ridley Scotts Prometheus it appears for a lot of fans for Some Reason or a Few others, the Character of David has Fallen from Grace that was his Performance and Character in the First Movie.

Is the Fall Out merely because HE is now the Creator of the Beloved Xenomorph?

Was it a how the Studio and David had take away the Protagonist Dr Shaw from us all?

Was it the way his Character had Changed from Prometheus to Covenant?

Is there  a way to get back on track and improve HOW the David Character should be explored next? 

Has he already taken up enough TIME within the Franchise's Prequel Saga?

Is it Fitting that David Reaches his End in the Next Movie (Assuming if One was made), and if so should he come to his End at the Climax, or Beginning?  

And IF we Do-Not see David or Walter Return how does a Sequel to Alien Covenant Cope? 

Where does it Carry on without Fassbender?

IF he does appear in the Next Movie but thats his Last Appearance but the Prequels are NOT Finished by then... then who and what Character is the Main Lead Torch Passed too?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

166 Replies

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-24-2018 1:04 AM

Going back to David i think they still have a Dilemma on their hands, and i think the MAIN deciding Factor is TIME...

The Longer the Franchise is on HOLD and especially any sequel to Alien Covenant, the less likely it may involve David, well maybe as far as what role and how large it is as far as Screen time.

The David Character has a lot of Fans from Prometheus, and some of the more General Fans or ALIEN Franchise Fans, had not taken to his Character too well... i think 3 Main Reasons come to mind.

*The David Creates the Xenomorph Angle.

*The over Emphasis on his Character being the driving Force of the Prequels much as Ripley was for the Alien Franchise.

*His Character Arc/Evolution compared to what he was in Prometheus.

So a lot of Hopes Fans had as far as what to do with Dr Shaw, what to do with giving us more about the Engineers, and HOW will we get our answers to the Xenomorph Origins...  And also i guess how they will explore David....    And it seems the use of David has seen his Character get a lot of stick for things...

*Killing off Dr Shaw and the Engineers.

*Creating the Xenomorph while using someone he was supposed to Care about.

*How he acted towards Walter and the Covenant Crew...

Seems a lot have issues with David more than those who dont...

I think a thing to consider would be WHAT kind of things would they change if they take on-board what they suspect has BUGGED Fans.. And so what HAPPENS if they decide to not have David as the Creator of the Xenomorph....  do they show us this because they cover his Creation more and show us clues/answers that show its a Knock Off?

Do they then introduce the Original Xenomorph if they go back this route or do they choose to keep this and the Space Jockey a Mystery?

So depending what route they take as far as Limiting Davids Role in the Xenomorph Origins, could impact HOW MUCH time is devoted to Davids Story in the sequel.

I think its not a case of getting rid of David... but i do think they have to find some middle ground, to try and please those who liked David or have hopes for his Character, and those who have lost interest or never had any in his Character.

I think a lot of Fans are hoping for Xenomorphs, that are NOT created by David, and also seeing the Engineers or another Race who are more Bad-ass to come into play and become the Space Jockey.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterJul-24-2018 2:59 PM

@BigDave

I spent some time today reading the John Logan base script of autumn 2015 this is important because it was the first time Ridley Scott got happy with moving forward with production on a film after Prometheus. Every previous script had been rejected out of hand but this script got the film production schedule rolling. It was as you know announced as Alien Paradise Lost.

The key elements were:-

1) A mad David who destroys the Engineer Home world.

2) An incoming colony ship called the Covenant.

3) Shaw dead early on head ripped off by D.

4) A sub plot about their being a protective barrier round the planet which had to be destroyed.

Aaron Percival maintains he has intel on the Michael Green phase and to quote "it wasn't that different". That makes sense because he and Paglan still get a writing credit.

I say all of this because the David dilemma is not the problem its the consequence of the problem.

So whats the problem. Well there are several. 

1) They would not risk making a film without a new group of human characters.

2) They probably couldn't envisage or afford to make a film where the Engineer world was alive and kicking.

3) They could not come up with a story where they could use the Shaw/David dynamic. 

Its hugely ironic that despite the extra ordinary breadth of the Prometheus foot print with so many questions to ask they couldn't get past first base without reverting to and then refining all the way back to an A L I E N retread. Looked at from that perspective it was obvious that you kill off the Shaw and Engineer story and out of that David creates the Xenomorph and to give it momentum for the next phase a whole ship of colonists survive with David.      

So you now have four sets of disgruntled fans. 

1) Those that do not like prequels and the demystification of the Jockey.

2) Those that do not like prequels and the Alien origin story.

3) Those that loved Prometheus for all its flaws and feel short changed by the volt-face.  

4) Those that love Alien movies so long as Ripley,a Queen and Marines are in making tough one liners.

Who would make another ? 

I have the second half of the epilogue to write and a post script and then I have some people in a focus group for first opinions and I need to re watch Prometheus ,Crossing and Alien to see if I am still routed and Lawrence for stuff.

If all that goes well I need to think about how to present the novel.

Reconnect down the road.  

MonsterZero

MemberXenomorphJul-24-2018 5:52 PM

1) A mad David who destroys the Engineer Home world.

Yes, I think they pretty much had to kill off the Engineers. 4 later movies and not one mention of this super race.

Alien  "OMG! an Engineers ship..let's get the hell out of here!"

Aliens "The Engineers were kind enough to let us settle LV426..let's make the most of it!"

Alien3 "Yeah, we got a bunch of renegade Engineers in a holding cell....Superior race!? My ass.."

Alien:R "We need this 'Newborn' weapon to help fight the Engineers!"

 

 Reboot with Engineers?

ignorantGuy

MemberChestbursterJul-24-2018 7:18 PM

@Michelle Johnston, I wonder what the original  Lindelof-Scott plan was in 2012, if there was any. And I am wondering who do you think are those that truly please where the prequels are going?

They could have made the world of the Engineers abandoned and all of them extinct and that's why they did not return for 2k years , for example. And they could have made it so the whole thing is not so obvious.

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterJul-25-2018 2:31 AM

@ignorantGuy 

Damon certainly said they had ideas as to where it might go but I suspect they were very blue sky nevertheless his loss was a big one. 

As to who do these films actually please General Film goers with a small investment in the franchise who find them reasonably entertaining. The comment I heard coming out of Covenant was it was good once it got going but to slow. Quite the opposite of those that felt the 3rd act was rushed which is the typical view on AVP. 

For myself I know exactly what has happened. ALIEN at 24 and PROMETHEUS at 57 were perfect for me.

Imagine a world where beings saw themselves as curators, recognised the enormity of creation and lived for, a very long time (thats code for immortal) and were satisfied to spend eons learning the universes mysteries and deal in its principle currency for the greater good. Is the Monster audience really interested in that. So I think some of the hints generated by Prometheus were counter intuitive to the Franchises base and thats the essential dichotomy.  

ignorantGuy

MemberChestbursterJul-25-2018 5:02 AM

@Michelle Johnston what about Aliens at 31 or cubed at 37 or Resurrection at 42? I guess they were less then perfect.

 

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterJul-25-2018 9:05 AM

@ignorantGuy

By then I was on the train, very busy, and just went to see them no big deal they are movies. I thought A's was a good "bigger" movie than A but impressive rather than fascinating entertaining rather than intriguing. A3 and AR were horrible for different reasons. The nixing of Hicks and Newt just killed it for me and AR's kitch left me cold.    

When you get to your fifties you start doing this look back thing turning over old stones and seeing whats underneath and making connections with your roots. So I really like the Assembly Cut of A3 and Aliens has become more two dimensional. AR remains sunk without trace. Alien is really beginning to show its age but those questions remain.

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-25-2018 2:25 PM

"Who would make another ? "

The Paragraph above this is like i have mentioned before, and so indeed its WHO would and HOW would you continue...  its going to be hard to Please all the Fans....    But they now have Set-Up a Route to ALIEN and Written themselves in a Corner where it can now only go ONE route and thats connecting the Dots to Alien while keeping the Xenomorph as Davids Creation.

I had to look into who Aaron Percival  was and what connection he has, seems he is part of AVPGalaxy, but that does not mean to say he has any information on any drafts to the Prometheus Sequel

We can see there were a Number of Changes prior to John Logan, it appears Dante Harper  may have penned what evolved from Micheal Greens work, then John Logan came in to changed Harpers Story to arrive at Alien Covenant.  There was some concept work from Paradise Lost, which featured Parasitic Plants attacking Humans, some Hybrid Animals that looked like Earth Animals including Dogs and a Gorilla.   So it would be interesting to see where these Story Boards/Concepts came from... i would assume Dante Harper work.

And i think INDEED a Problem when making any sequel and the same will apply to Alien Covenants, is that how do you make a Story and Engage Viewers with NO or a limited Human Cast?

This could be one reason for why a Plot-Change to introduce a Human Contingent from Earth was made.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-25-2018 2:47 PM

"I wonder what the original  Lindelof-Scott plan was in 2012, if there was any. "

Well it appeared they had the Broad idea of were to GO, even as far as the possibility of 1-2 Sequels... but the purpose then was not to GO to ALIEN, but to steer away from Alien.   It was to go where Dr Shaw wanted to go, and to see if she gets any of her Answers.   I think her Questions, and Davids Evolution/Freedom are TWO key things they would have Explored....   But it would also likely had been to EXPAND on the Engineers as far as WHO they were, WHY they Seed/Evolve Worlds,  WHAT other Worlds have they Seeded and WHY and also WHERE are they now.... and WHO created them.

Then we have the Black Goo, and what can this do in detail, while we may wonder if we would have got answers to LV-223 and the Black Goo, i think by Virtue of taking a Juggernaught there was the potential we could see more of what this stuff does... and i think it was intended that this Black Goo would play a Pivotal Role too.

Ridley Scott had left is some ideas of where they was going at this time, and he had said that THEY do go to where the Engineers come from and THEY do discover some beings, who are NOT Gods, not in the Traditional Sense, and they are FAR from Benevolent... However.. David is bringing HELL with him and what happens when the Black Goo infects a GOD or a MACHINE.

Pretty Interesting statement there....  Other things he had teased way prior to any sequel being close to Production...

Much Latter than this, he had made references to Paradise Lost in context to our Engineers....

*The Engineers in Prometheus are not GOD...  and THEY did not want to introduce GOD in the first movie.

*The Engineers are Fallen Angels, and Pretty Aggressive SOB's

*The Engineers are Gardeners of Space.

*The intentions/way forwards are to Steer Away from ALIEN

*Implies that David and Dr Shaw need each other to get off that Rock and to Paradise

*Once Davids head goes back on, he will be Very Dangerous but he is Very Persuasive.  Its not like Dr Shaw has any choice... if she wants to go and get her Answers.

So they LIKELY planned to show some Dynamic between Dr Shaw and David and what kind of Cat/Mouse was played until they reached and made a Pact...

They would LIKELY had gone to were these Engineers are and Discovered they are not NICE especially as far as how insignificant we are or their dislike for us, or maybe in context to their Agenda/Ways.

It is LIKELY that the Black Goo is used on these beings, or at least some of them, where we could see the Effects, and maybe get some insight into its Purpose and Use....  And maybe this Weapon is a Good Bargaining Chip to Keep those Far From Benevolent beings on a LEASH and to Barter/Blackmail some Answers from them...

I think its LIKELY they would continue Davids Progress now he is FREE, and i think the Sentient, Rebellious and seeking to become the NEW KING Arc is something they would have explored.

That seems to be the Nuts and Bolts of where we was being taken at the time certainly prior and during Jack Paglens involvement.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterJul-26-2018 12:42 AM

@BigDave

Aaron Percival is a co runner of AVP highly respected in the community and has excellent relationships with Fox. He interviewed Ridley and Michael as part of the A C promotion.His behaviour indicates he receives Intel keeps confidences and confirms rumours when they emerge but only when they emerge. Everything he anticipated in A C was correct and he was always ahead of all the other communities. I suspect that is because when he is offered intel he keeps confidences and is therefore kept in the loop.

As to where Prometheus tangent may have gone. There were multiple Davids and all of other Ridleys comments. In terms of finding the truth the one comment he made which I find particularly fascinating is the one about Paradise being anything but more like hell, Paradise Lost and then the remark about them being aggressive f.......

If you actually look at this idea from a distance and consider the evidence of the planetoid and then put that with  the teardrop incident, that was never going to work as the next stage of the narrative for episodic movie making. For one simple reason. It would have merely rerun Prometheus but bigger. We already know what Engineer hell looks like and its outcome so the real question is what does Engineer Heaven look like and why did they fall.

What is fascinating, and back to my original post, only when Paradise is destroyed by David do they green light the follow up. So the huge gap in the narrative logic now is if the Planetoid is Engineer Hell and the Teardrop is Engineer Heaven and lets say Planet 4 is where the Engineers live then what caused the Engineers to fall. I listened to Advent last night and David says the Engineers on planet 4 became timid and turned from their early rituals of sacrifice well where the .... does that fit in. Never mind that Weyland Yutani know from his transmission EVERYTHING. Its a complete shambles.        

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterJul-26-2018 2:36 AM

@BigDave

Often fans say they want more of this and less of that. However this issue of the structural failure of the prequels was highlighted to me by something connected with my writing.

The Word count now the first draft is completed is just short of 36,000. That makes it just less than half the length of the Alien Covenant novelisation but here is the thing they are 30% into the story of A C as the Lander heads for planet 4. Thats mostly spent on character development where the characters are now dead. 

Many pages subsequently are taken up with the narrative related to getting down to the stranded crew much of which was cut from the film as Pietro said it was quite rightly distracting. Put simply if you judge A C in terms of deepening the mythos and getting some answers and REALLY moving forward its obvious that a good deal of the film was a distraction. Whereas if you do what you say you were going to do (Shaw/David/Answers) and stick to it, it can rain answers. 

I know much of this is is to do with the repositioning as an A L I E N movie but if you want a continuous arc which people are going to buy into you cannot keep on making movies where you spend 1/3rd of your time on start up and then kill them all off. It has to be genuinely episodic and I am not sure Ridley knows how to do that based on the evidence of how he makes a film connected to another one and leaves huge gaps everywhere.  

ignorantGuy

MemberChestbursterJul-26-2018 4:19 AM

@Michelle Johnston, hasn't Lindelof stated after AC that they have much to go until they cover what was original envisaged and sincerely I don't think that the studio would have kept him judging the huge flak his still receives for Lost.

And in regard to characterization, people seem to want more, but then again if they die at the end why bother? Why bother with anyone if they will be replaced in the next one?

 

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-26-2018 8:31 AM

Indeed i think as Thoughts_and_Dreams brings up a lot, you really need Characters, and you need to be drawn into them to feel like you could be in their situation and relate to it..   It seems this is why AC had a slow build up, like ALIEN and it seems the Novel had much more of a Build up, which would have maybe helped us connect to the Characters...  But indeed when they are making a Movie that they are trying to give a little here and there to please all... it means to keep such detailed build up from the Novel would make add a extra 20 minutes to the First Act, which could affect Pacing of the movie as it could get to dragged out for those who want to get right into the Action/Horror and Mystery.     But as you say Michelle, even investing in Characters is a flaw if you are going to KILL them all off.

The Ending to Alien Covenant was flawed because of the Reveal, it was done this way to in part SURPRISE the Audience, but come on how many saw this was going to happen anyway... so in having Daniels know who David is, means now he has to either Kill/Experiment on her, or he may due to his very Narcissistic Nature he may wish to use her as a Play Thing, subject her to stuff or have her know what his intentions are but have her incapacitated so she cant do nothing to stop him.

If they did make Daniels the NEW Dr Shaw where we arrive at her just being a Corpse, then it would be a COP OUT.

So the Problem they have is the connecting tissue to ALIEN, if we are going for Alien Covenant => Its Sequel => Final Chapter to Alien.

Its how do they Carry a Character from the First Movie to the Last, how do we have a Tennessee and/or Daniels last through another TWO movies?  We could be introduced to NEW Characters in the Next one, which if a Handful are done RIGHT and they survive until the 3rd Part of this New Alien: Prequel Trilogy maybe it could work?

It seems the ONE connecting Character to it all is DAVID, but some are already not happy with his Arc, and its hard to connect to a Non-Human Character unless you bring out some Humanity to him, Sadly a Narcissistic Tyrant Android is not going to do this... IF this role does not change and David is the Big Part i do feel that by the end of the Next Movie a lot of Fans may not be interested in the Final Chapter apart from IF the Set-Up seems to lead to Engineers vs Xenomorphs and our Spoon Fed Space Jockey Event... But a Popcorn Flick Final Movie may be nothing to go back to time after time.

Why i think they have to give some Background to get us to understand WHY David has become how he has, and maybe have David have a Change of Heart and Abandon his Xenomorphs in Persuit of giving Mankind the Fresh Start...  but Have David Act like a Noah.. and so having these Humans abide to Rules so they Steer from becoming the Corrupt beings that we had on Earth.

This could work maybe... until either David has his Xenomorphs as a Punishment for those who Stray or the Colonist Accidentally discover who David is and what he had done before, or discover his Xenomorphs.  Then HELL breaks loose.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterJul-26-2018 8:40 AM

@ignorantGuy

I am quite sure he looked at the Engineer City in A C with its Greco Roman come Buddha vibe and thought thats not where we were going. We were going somewhere deeply unpleasant where there was an upside down morality and the underlying thread was to do with the relationship between the mechanical and the biological construct where the source of power was more machine than not. If you put multiple Davids in there his next task is to go up against something which is essentially like him and of course Elizabeth finds out that her creators are not nice after all. So neither David or Elizabeth like them for different reasons. So the themes were inverted paradise and that although we are biological we are still "made" and all that stuff about an immortal soul is hoie.

 

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-26-2018 8:58 AM

Regarding the Development of a Prometheus Sequel, it was stuck in Limbo while they could not figure a Story to Stick too...    The Summer of 2015 was a period of where work had taken place on what seems a New Direction where indeed Harper and Logans drafts are similar.  It would be interesting to see How Much was carried from Micheal Greens last Draft to the Covenant Type Plot.

But what ever this Evolved from, and what ever the Process from 2012-2015 i think no longer matters in terms of were they maybe Plan to go Forwards from now on.

Certainly the Comments RS made 2012-2013 and indeed what he made 2014 and early 2015 seem to not Match what most of Alien Covenant was about... so it appears some significant U-Turn had been made.

"There were multiple Davids and all of other Ridleys comments"

Indeed i remember when this came out, and wondered how does this play into things...  The Source i had, did suggest there are Multiple Davids but Dont Expect a Platoon of them.

I wonder how this now fits with RS thinking?  He claims the next movie would be about AI more than anything...  I am not sure how Fans would React to Many Davids....   We did get Multiple Androids in Alien Covenant,  and at the time of the Announcement we was told there would be a Doppelganger which i felt was odd to call ANOTHER Android and so i pondered if this was a Human in his likeness or a Android that is different (Synthetic Construct)

What we got was WALTER and the interesting thing is the Marketing where a Emphasis seems to be on the WE ARE WALTER which means they have a common connection and possibly could be connected to perform as a Collective if explored in Future.   Looking at the Paradise Lost Theme.... and Prometheus one..   we see that David did ask Walter to join him.... which he refused..

So i think its possible they could show us what happens when the WE ARE WALTERS become Fallen by the Hands of David....

Would Fans be happy with seeing Multiple Fassbender Robots, on a Scale of 5,10, 20 or more lol

I think there is the possibility of more Walters, due to the Nature of Walter and his Role and the Covenant Mission.  If Mankind had fears and concerns about the David Models, you would be Reluctant to HAVE more than ONE Synthetic on a ship.... even though Walter clearly Serves and is not Sentient like David.

But having a Walter is a Big Bonus for a Colonization Mission as there are so many things he can do better than a Human... so having a SYNTHETIC on board makes sense....

We have to Remember a Synthetic is IMMORTAL to a degree, provided you Maintain them, and have Spare Parts and as i was touching upon a lot with AI and my plans for Prometheus 2.... If you uploaded the Synthetics SOUL so to speak, then even a Badly Damaged Walter can be Resurrected to Serve again with all his knowledge instead of a Fresh Reboot.

So IF Walter has SPARE parts... would they not have every Spare Part?

We cant see David playing a ONE HANDED Robot... and so to Charade as Walter, if he Built a Walter Body from Parts and Uploaded his AI SOUL to this, then he could go around with those Colonist pretending to be WALTER... then EDIT the Logs/System to then give his own version of Events...   I feel he will keep Daniels locked up some place though and ONCE the Colonist discover her... then David is Rumbled and he then has NO Choice but to Unleash his Demons to deal with those who KNOW his Secret.

THIS is what i assume may happen, it is what i would have done.

ANOTHER thing about the We are Walter.... is HOW MANY parts are there for him?  Enough to make a Number of Walters?  How Dangerous would this be if DAVID builds multiple Walters that are given the Forbidden Knowledge Free-Will of David and become Fallen?

I still suspect the Viral for Walter where some of his construction has a Organic Aesthetic is more than just for Aesthetics, Davids Xenomorph is not BIO-MECHANICAL...  and IF the Walter Models are kind of Bio-Mechanical i think thats a Set-up for our Xenomorph in ALIEN, the WALTER-MORPH

A Theme of Prometheus and Paradise Lost is Hubris, Hubris from Sub-Creation and Free-Will.  

So David in a Bio-Mechanical Body could leave him open to become infected...

Multiple Walters Re-Programed to accept Davids Commands than the Default Programing could also lead to a Problem if THESE become Sentient against David....  Turning on him... or David sees this and his Xenomorphs are unleashed on them.... maybe leading to ONE to give Birth to a Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph...  WHAT WOULD DAVID think when he sees that?

So there are a number of Avenues to continue with and arrive at our Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph, and indeed AI could play a LARGE role in this.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerJul-26-2018 10:12 AM

Whatever way you go about it, like him or not, David holds they keys to the story.

He will dispose off Daniels, since she is positive about his identity and therefore poses risk to his future plans, whatever they may be. No ifs about this. Tennessee doesn't have a clue about David/Walter switcheroo, and seemingly to David he is oblivious to his little game. David will want Tee to stay, because, he will carry the authority to the story about what happened on the planet they picked up a signal from. Walter will use Tee to wash the story to the colonists.

Of course, Tee will eventually uncover the circumstances under which Daniels would be gone, as no doubt would be reported by David(pretending to be Walter) to him. Recall, David doesn't have a clue about what happened to the original Captain of the Covenant - long gone but still remembered husband of Daniels. Tee knows that Walter would have known about this event. David however doesn't know about this event.

What will probably happen is, we will be shown how a new planet would be terraformed by the settling colonists. But strange creatures will appear(and this is the time I suppose Tee will recognize them, having seen one such creature before, and will confront David and uncover his true identity).

An unexpected thing(a joker really) that might happen is that Walter recovers the crashed engineer ship and arrives at Origae 6 just at the right time. Eventually, David will be forced to flee and he will take the ship and recover some of his eggs. He will be attacked and will eventually crash on LV-426 as the big guy. That's it.

 

Weyland Yutani will get an update on what happened but will be missing the input from lost David. They will want to find about his destiny and the beast, at any cost.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-26-2018 6:04 PM

"He will be attacked and will eventually crash on LV-426 as the big guy. That's it."

Looking at the Scenario you see, a number of others on here are Fearful of David  or Walter becoming the Space Jockey, i really hope not as this would UPSET the Fans more than the Changes to Canon that Alien Covenant has already accomplished and then we have the Size Difference.... but then Clearly the Engineers are also not 13-15 Ft tall either.

I think we need to look at the Clues and whats been Set-up and bare in mind Ridley Scotts Comments... But the KEY thing is to consider David what his Agenda is and what would he do to suit his Goal/Ambition and i think the MAIN things for him would be.

*Charade himself as Walter to the Colonist.

*Coverup the Events that happened on Planet 4.

If David gets rid of Daniels, a Tennessee may start to peice things together and want to know HOW/WHEN this happened, so unless he is Smoking too much POT (or Drinking too much JD) or he is not the Sharpest Knife in the Draw, i think he could start to pick up on things and eventually suspect something.

Also Tennessee knows about what happened on Planet 4, so he would inform some of the Colonist of this and it only takes a few Insightful Colonists to start to suspect stuff.

Having Tennessee and Daniels Eliminated from the Equation would give David a Fresh Start to then come up with his own Version of Events.

The ideas i had for a Sequel (Alien: Ascension) to show that David takes care of Tennessee, but continue with the Semi-Prequel Novel (Alien: Covenant Origins) i was going to have David inform the Colonist that there was a bunch of Saboteurs on the Ship and One of those was Tennessee who has killed Daniels, and few others.

David could Alter Logs and Evidence to support this....

But David with his Narcissistic Nature and Infatuation with Daniels has her kept some place secret, as he uses her for his Queen... Eventually he gets rumbled when she is Discovered and he attempts to Silence those who found out with a Xenomorph, but this Back-Fires as a Outbreak then occurs.

There would be incoming Engineers and TWO Weyland Missions... One Brings David a NEW Love Interest... and SHE becomes the Queen to the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorphs in the 3rd Movie (Alien: Absolution) this Loss Caused by the Engineers upsets David and the Covenant he makes with them, he BREAKS causing the Space Jockey Event and Destruction of LV-223. In the 3rd Act of the Final Movie (Alien: Absolution

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-26-2018 6:15 PM

Looking at the Set-Up we need to consider what Ridley Scott has said and so things to consider are these points..

*The Covenant Ship will arrive at the Planet (Assume Origae-6)

*The movie will be about what kind of a World David would create.

*It would not be about Xenomorphs but more to do with AI.

*There will be 3-4 incoming Parties (i assume 3-4 factions that arrive after David/Colonist get to Origae-6).

*One of these Parties will be the Engineers, who return back to Planet 4 and discover the Destruction and want to Hunt down the Culprit.

*David has left TWO Messages for Earth/Weyland-Yutani, One that informs them of his Work and introduces himself as David on a Secure Connection.. The other as Walter Informing them of a accident and loss of the Crew and that they are continuing with their Mission to Origae-6.

*The Covenant wont arrive at Origae-6 until 10 years prior to ALIEN and around the End of April 2112.

*The ADVENT suggests David has to Perfect his Queen, and (Katherine Waterston) had indicated she heard that her Role was very Important/Interesting as far as were they was going with her Character but said this was in part Rumors a while back.

*The Movie would set up a Final Connecting Movie to ALIEN

*Davids Xenomorph have some Evolving to go as they are not Quite there yet (Bio-Mechanical)

*Davids Evolved Creations will end up on a Engineer Ship in their Thousands.

*This Ship crashes on LV-426 (near by LV-223) which are both NO-WHERE near Origae-6

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

MemberChestbursterJul-26-2018 10:12 PM

@BigDave "Infatuation with Daniels" where did you get that? 

Also Walter replacement parts? Are we sure that even that he is that kind of a robot? In meet Walter we see that in a exoskeleton white liquid is poured in vacuum and after that a complete MF is born. You also must take into account that Walters have genetic imprint of the user (read the disclaimer), so can they accept any spares if there any? Furthermore, why complicated your self with healing if spares are readily available?

For me it's obvious that D will be at least face-hugged and that's the final evolution of the borest. How? Well he probably (hopefully to not have more MFs) swapped bodies with Walter (who is half biological). We also have Fox's request to remove the thread proposing this. Further, you can't be fully misogynistic without having the loved and killed woman return as a monster/ghost to enact vengeance on the man (wish I've save the article where I read about 19th century literature cliches). Well if the Pygmalion (creating the perfect woman...) stuff was not enough.  

He is also probably the space jockey as he is the only one still important.

ali81

MemberNeomorphJul-27-2018 4:00 AM

I have to say I don't agree that David is infatuated with Daniels. I don't think he has any feelings towards her what so ever except he sees a second chance to further his experiments.

ignorantguy, please tell me ur not RS in disguise trying to logically defend ur future decisions to trash this franchise great lineage lol

but seriously I know ur predictions are probably gna be close to the mark but man do I hate that this is going to be the case

ignorantGuy

MemberChestbursterJul-27-2018 4:23 AM

@ali81 I'll give you 10 (or less) compelling reasons that why I'm not RS:

1. I was born in 1986 in Romania (400 miles from Chernobyl and I was still in the womb when the incident happened...)

2. I still live there (so don't blame Brexit on me).

3. I've only been in the UK once and never the US.

4. I liked more Shaw than David.

5. I think that the only hard alcohol tolerable is brandy ... so no (Jack) Daniels for me.

6. I also don't like that Wayne Hagg (or Haag?) guy.

7. I did not care if Deckard was replicant or not.

8.  I don't like psychopaths and I also think that Hannibal is the worst movie/series with Lecter in it.

9. 10. maybe I'll think about something later.

ali81

MemberNeomorphJul-27-2018 4:29 AM

lol uv convinced me. I wanted more Shaw aswell. ok maybe not the best performance (what was with that accent?) but the character was original n should have seen at least 1 more movie. ok have her fate be the same. maybe David resists using her in his experiments due to his feelings for her but uses Daniels and when Shaw reacts badly to this David accidently kills her so no point wasting good meat

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterJul-27-2018 12:28 PM

@ignorantGuy

You asked me about what Damon had in his mind after he had co written Prometheus. Tonight whilst doing some research that was quite unrelated I found something which is entirely new to me, which it turns out is very closely calibrated to my vision but I want to quote from Damon.

“there are a lot more answers there than people think there are and room for theories, but the movie needed to end in a way that is Shaw still searching. She is not satisfied with the answers that she got. I think that’s very indicative, hopefully, if Shaw is supposed to be the audience proxy, they’re supposed to be feeling the same way that she is at the end of the movie.”

How utterly extra ordinary that one of the co writers of the movie who discussed with Jon and Ridley "what else" the movie would lead to makes it absolutely clear that Elizabeth is our proxy. I feel vindicated that i was right and upset in equal measure that the person that was driving the narrative on our behalf was turned over so badly. There is more where this comes from but it would act as a spoiler to my novella.

In answer to this thread its very simple David in his current arc cannot act as our proxy indeed we should all be baying for his A I lubricant.  

ignorantGuy

MemberChestbursterJul-27-2018 8:01 PM

@Michelle Johnston, well. what puzzles to this day is that some people consider that killing off Shaw was losing the fat or that the prequels were always about D.

And sincerely, I would like this series not to Lead into Alien, but to be in a parallel universe where David manages to wipe put all life. 

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterJul-28-2018 11:01 AM

@ignorantGuy

In a sense he had. 

However I think you are touching on another truth about episodic film making. 

Not only has the back ground (how it all fits together) got to be coherent but your characters that run through it have to grow in significance in the way they affect the narrative.

So for David to go from minor irritant to abolisher of worlds makes sense except for two reasons in this case.

1) We have no relationship with planet 4 and worse still we have idea how it fits in so it feels plot point convenient rather than a build.

2) It reduces him to "I got lucky these guys turned up."

If he had come into a great history and stumbled into changing EVERYTHING for the worse (or better) than we have some relativism to build on.  

 

 

 

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-29-2018 11:42 AM

"Are we sure that even that he is that kind of a robot? In meet Walter we see that in a exoskeleton white liquid is poured in vacuum and after that a complete MF is born"

Certainly is a Good  Point, i'm certainly surprised i overlooked this too ;)

A Majority of what i put in regards to where we can go next, is to try and make some kind of sense/way out of the Mess they have Written themselves into a Corner with.

Having ONE Synthetic with no way of Maintenance sounds Flawed to me, but indeed the Meet Walter Viral does seem to show a FABRICATED in One Piece to it.  The whole DNA Imprinting was also interesting.  And we have to wonder WHY was this mentioned and attributed to Walter?

We are led to that Walter Can Repair himself, in some kind of Regenerative way, but David also had the Wound given to him off Daniels Heal up.....   we could ask did David have time to Transfer his AI Soul to Walter?

I think accepting that a Walter Can Self Repair, we have to ask HOW FAR does this go, to a degree does this mean they NEED No Parts?  What if the Walter Suffers Serve Damage?  If they only NEED and take ONE Walter on the Mission, then it really limits them, but then we see NO Evidence of David having Spare Parts for the Prometheus Mission, but i would assume a Long Term Colonization mission they would have some Contingency plans.

But if we do assume lets say they have ONE Walter, and NO Parts, and that he CAN Regenerate... we have to ask can he Regenerate a HAND?

IF he cant then it really hinders David, and how is he going to Explain that Injury to the Colonist.. IF Walter Can Regenerate a Hand, then this puts David in a even BIGGER Pickle... especially if the Colonist know of Walters Abilities.  They would Question WHY there Walter has not grown his Hand back.   I think a lot comes from the Writers not Fully thinking about how Plot Devices could lead to any Future Problems.

I was drawn to thinking that i cant see them CAST Fassbender to play a One Handed Robot for the remainder of the Franchise, so came up with such a Theory as a way to get out of ONE Corner they have written themselves in.

I suppose another option in LIGHT of the points raised, is maybe they have a Number of WALTER Bodies, that they can Transfer the Memories etc of a too badly Damaged Walter to... which could mean David could Transfer himself to a Spare Back Up Walter?

Regarding Daniels... i just think David had a bit of a obsession with Dr Shaw, and he certainly seemed intrigued to see if Walter had any kind of Feelings for Daniels... i think David is a unstable and a bit Crazy Synthetic..   And so my point really is how i feel the Potential is David could become Infatuated a bit with Daniels, rather than having a Definite Outlook towards her at Present.

I feel his Character could develop after the Loss of Dr Shaw, and him pondering WHY Walter could not have same feelings for Daniels, i think David could see that Walters Limited Free-Will was wasted on him, and what Potential Walter would have IF he was like David as far as then being able to Appreciate Daniels rather than just DUTY.

So i just suspect that David would want to Experiment with Daniels, but he would be very interested and intrigued in her, so maybe Infatuated is the Wrong choice of Words... he could be Infatuated with his Agenda for her, rather than any actual LOVE i think David would see her more than just a Test Subject...  and would Keep her Alive but Captive, which i think would lead to a Hubris for him, and how he would get caught out...  But his Arrogance and his Wicked Nature to keep Daniels as his Play Thing would be his Downfall.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-29-2018 11:55 AM

Dr Shaw as our Proxy...  i do see this as being the case, she would be the Human Character we can connect with for the answers she wants, as the movie opens up with some Questions, that would get us to also want to know these Answers, and HOW would they tackle them in context to the Franchise.

And so we could engage with how she would feel/act depending on WHAT answers she got, and how close they are to what she "CHOOSES to Believe" and what Revelations they had in store.

David would a Proxy for us to see the Actual Real Reason or Significance of Creation.   So Dr Shaws Journey and Questions could be what we would HOPE to discover.  Where as David i feel would have been used to show us what ACTUALLY maybe Creation was all about.

Dr Shaw is holding out that Mankind is Special, has a Special Place in the Universe, that is to be Cherished and Loved by her GOD.. and that at some part of the Creation Ladder their has to be a Being/Beings who reflect the Creation/God of her Faith.

I feel she actually finds out  the TRUTH is much worse than she could ever hope for..... and this leaves room to BREAK her Character and then explore what becomes of her Once she discovers Answers that is Totally against what she hoped for.

All of this was brushed aside for the ONLY thing that seemed to matter now.... HOW was the Xenomorph Created, WHEN/WHERE and WHY

Where only the Engineers Bio-Weapon, and Davids Reasoning for being against Mortal Creation and his view on the Role he was seen as only being worthy of (To Serve) has shaped his Agenda to be Creator himself and Undo his Creators.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterJul-29-2018 3:59 PM

@BigDave

Your answer interests me because you are intellectualising the notion of a proxy whereas what Damon is talking about is we need someone who mediates the story emotionally. If you look at the beats of the film carefully. Creation/Ellie's father Paradise is where I chose to believe we go/they are us we are them/then besting all the shits on the Prometheus and surviving there is a human story.

David shows he has feelings watching him work through the Weyland debrief his resolution to do what Weyland wants but leads him to his death which he wants generates enough ambiguity before we get the next three key changes His head is ripped off/Weyland dies as he wishes/Elizabeth heals him.

So going into Prometheus continuation we are routing for Elizabeth she has questions we have the same ones and how David responds to the three events given he served unwillingly is wide open. Where the subtext gets interesting is if this is a mythos where the currency of creation is knowledge then what represents life bio mech or both and is their any moral relativism. I think its the latter where they all came unstuck.

Bladerunner is a fallen world with synthetic apartheid.

Alien is about a dark nihilistic monster killing people and a self serving company and marines and stuff with atttude. What Ridley tried to do was say hey the monster was a by product of a fall lets move on nothing here and lets explore all about everything :-

1) Like what is life. - Elizabeth and David the two sides.

2) What is a soul how does it come about . - David 

3) What is the spiritual currency of an Engineered world where sacrifice was noble and creation of worlds and species is about knowledge. -Engineers what the planetoid and what goes down at home. 

And everyone went just tell Ridley the fan boys are drooling over Blomkamp. Because based on some recent intel he was dragged back to the cooked beast. So I will give them f...... was quite passive aggressive rather like his robot.

But to finish the point what if the Lindelof next phase was positively a different kind of spirituality building on the idea of Christ as an Engineer. Now that would not do because the franchise is meant to be dark period. What if creation is tough but good. "The trick William Potter is not minding it hurts" 

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-30-2018 8:54 AM

"Damon is talking about is we need someone who mediates the story emotionally"

Certainly thats how i view it too, maybe the way i word things make interpreting what i said difficult at times, i do apologies.   I see RS was setting up Prometheus to NOT be a movie about a ALIEN Race that created a Alien Beast... he wanted to get us to ponder some Big Questions,  about Creation, the Soul, God, where we go when we Die.

These are some of the Biggest Questions and Mysteries in LIFE, and even if you are a Atheist (and we can see Weyland Reflects this) when it comes to Deaths Door, people do Clutch at Straws and Turn to a God they dont believe in because of that BIG and the BIGGEST Part of Life.. which is Death.... what happens Next.

So RS is teasing us with this, but also exploring the Ancient Alien Concept that Our Creation/Gods are actually Interstellar Alien Beings. 

And Dr Shaw was our Ticket to those Answers, she was the Character we was meant to reflect with so we can be in her Shoes for the journey, which seemed to be why just killing her off was a bit of waste to some.

But i think on the other Hand RS was also treading the Line that WHAT IF there is nothing Special to Creation, and Creation is actually similar to maybe WHY David was created rather than any important significant reasons...   There are a lot of Reasons for Creation in various Mythos/Religions and mainly the Abrahamic Ones lend to a Loving God Created us to Watch over and Love.... but there is much more to it than that...  where we have to ask.. IF Lucifer was not as Sentient and more like a Walter than a David.. would GOD had even needed/wanted to create Mankind.  I have a feeling RS was going to take us on a route to actually show why the Engineers were created, and why Mankind was created and i dont think it was the same reasons that say a Loving Couple would Choose to Create a Child Together.

So Dr Shaw was the Person we was supposed to connect with so that we are in her shoes for when she gets her Answers, and the Results/Effects those Answers depending one WHAT they would have been would have a Drastic Effect on Dr Shaw and if we followed her Journey and her Character Improved so we could connect with her, then through her the Story could have become very Engaging for us all...  Which we just wont get NOW.... even doing Flash Backs etc may not have the same impact as it could have been.

Which is why your Planned Story is interesting as a Attempt to Give us what we could have had, if they had Pursued what we was being led to that a Prometheus 2 would have covered.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-30-2018 9:14 AM

"Bladerunner is a fallen world with synthetic apartheid.

Alien is about a dark nihilistic monster killing people and a self serving company and marines and stuff with atttude. What Ridley tried to do was say hey the monster was a by product of a fall lets move on nothing here and lets explore all about everything :-"

This is VERY True and the Entirety of your post....  i had mentioned a number of times in the past that what Prometheus was showing us in context to ALIEN is that the Xenomorph is a Bi-Product of the Black-Goo that was to be used as a Weapon...   and so just as there is more to Mankind than Gunpowder (and the Weapons that Evolved from this) and so what Ridley Scott was doing  (in my opinion) is to say there is more to the Space Jockey race than just the Xenomorph which Ultimately was being portrayed as a Weapon.     So if we have  Mankind/Engineers,  then we have Gunpowder/Black-Goo and end up with AK-47/Xenomorph.

But there is more to Mankind than Weapons, and the Bigger Questions related should be WHY and so Why we create weapons for what Conflicts and how they came about... which is why RS felt the WHY was more important to the Xenomorph.   But also the Gunpowder Analogy is not quite right because the Black-Goo is much more than a Weapon, a Weapon is a Bi-Product/Use for it but there is so much more to this Substance.  That does not have to be confined to just Creating Xenomorph Monsters.

So indeed RS was trying to take us away from ALIEN he and Lindeloff clearly said any sequels would further distance away from ALIEN.  But in Hindsight the Tone Down of Connections and DNA links from Alien Engineers to Prometheus, and having no Xenomorph Related Attacks, and NO Answers to the Origins of the Xenomorph or the Space Jockey Event is something that a Number of Fans were just not pleased with Prometheus was just not ALIENY and FOX interpreted this meant a Majority of Fans would want a ALIENY Prequel Saga that would give the Xenomorph Origins and bring them back into the Fold.

In Hindsight if Prometheus was that little more ALIENY and its clues to ALIEN were less ambiguous, then i feel they could have closed the DOOR on ALIEN and moved off to the Direction they intended.

"Spirituality building on the idea of Christ as an Engineer"

Indeed i remember the remark that they was toying with this, but it was too on the nose....  i think a Problem with Prometheus and revelations like this was it did UPSET some of the Christian Community, but alas its only SCI-FI and i'm glad they did not reference too much to Christianity as well the idea is not these Engineers are GOD/Jesus, Angels and Demons...   But the Engineers are the Influence for where all of Mankinds (well most) of our Mythos and Religions came from... as many have connecting themes.

So Ridley Scotts comment on the Emissary sent down to put us right, but we killed him, is something more broad.... because i like to think they sent down Many Emissaries to each continent.

And Civilizations who lived in Ancient Ritualistic Ways, still appeased the Engineers, and after the Failed Attempt to Destroy us and then likely a Abandonment of us, i like to think in some distant Civilizations which for many years latter still kept the more Simple Ritual Life, maybe still had a few Emissaries Stranded behind with them.

I feel this would explain the Latter Date Star Maps that were dated latter than 2000 years ago.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Add A Reply
Sign In Required
Sign in using your Scified Account to access this feature!
Email
Password
Latest Images
Alien & Predator Alien & Predator Fandom
Alien Movie Universe Forums
Alien: Romulus
Alien: Romulus Discuss the new Fede Alvarez Alien movie here
Alien
Alien Discuss all things Alien here
Alien: Covenant
Alien: Covenant Discuss the Prometheus Sequel, Alien: Covenant
Alien FX TV Series
Alien FX TV Series Discuss the Alien FX TV series here!
Alien Games
Alien Games Discuss Alien games here
Alien 5 Movie
Alien 5 Movie Discuss Neill Blomkamps’s vision for Alien 5 here
Alien Movies
Alien Movies Discuss the Classic Alien Films
Prometheus
Prometheus Everything About Prometheus
Prometheus Fan Art
Prometheus Fan Art Artwork & Fiction From the Fans
Hot Forum Topics
New Forum Topics
Highest Forum Ranks Unlocked
Chris
Chris » Engineer
49% To Next Rank
ninXeno426
ninXeno426 » Praetorian
62% To Next Rank
Thoughts_Dreams
Thoughts_Dreams » Neomorph
85% To Next Rank
MonsterZero
MonsterZero » Xenomorph
92% To Next Rank
Neomorph
Neomorph » Chestburster
80% To Next Rank
Latest Alien Fandom Activity

Alien: Covenant is a sequel to 2012's Prometheus as well as a prequel to 1979's ALIEN. Alien fans looking to know more about Alien: Covenant should check back often. Alien-Covenant.com is an information resource for film enthusiasts looking to learn more about the upcoming blockbuster Alien: Covenant. Providing the latest official and accurate information on Alien: Covenant, this website contains links to every set video, viral video, commercial, trailer, poster, movie still and screenshot available. This site is an extension of the Alien & Predator Fandom on Scified - a central hub for fans of Alien and Prometheus looking to stay up-to-date on the latest news. Images used are property of their respective owners. Alien: Covenant, Prometheus and its associated names, logos and images are property of 20th Century Fox and are in no way owned by Scified and its related entities. This is a fan-created website for the purpose of informing and exciting fans for Alien: Covenant's release. If you have any questions about this site, its content or the Scified Network in general, feel free to contact Scified directly.

© 2024 Scified.com
Sign in
Use your Scified Account to sign in


Log in to view your personalized notifications across Scified!

Transport To Communities
Alien Hosted Community
Cloverfield Hosted Community
Godzilla Hosted Community
Jurassic World Hosted Community
Predator Hosted Community
Aliens vs. Predator Hosted Community
Latest Activity
Forums
Search Scified
Trending Articles
Blogs & Editorials