What happens to Shaw after Prometheus in Alien: Covenant - Fan Theory

I have been away for two days and "all hell breaks lose ha ha!" 

I think what we are all discussing in our different ways and to each other is how much and to what extent are the string of movies going to be threaded together and drive the answers through a neat but potentially trite narrative arc. Because John Logan is involved in Covenant and because of Ridders remarks I think the chance has increased dramatically since the shift away from the elliptical Lindelof approach.

I have a lot of sympathy with such an approach because we want more depth and answers rather than more questions but the danger is fan service answers .

What we then do is wrestle with incoming intel and where it might fit.

To finish at the end I think the jockey is an exceptional being and the chances of it being a sacrificial death with a deadly cargo and then a warning from this exceptional being is quite likely. Could this exceptional being be a radically transformed somebody rather than just one of those pale guys I think thats possible now. 

Now back to the front W/Y this now feels like a coming together following the death of the Weylands and the disastrous mission of the Prometheus. How do they find out that has occurred. Shaw's message arrives, is intercepted by either elements of W and Y and they also, to "follow" Shaw and David have established where they went. Thats to use one of the casts language a fluid move from Prom to Covenant. They know through Shaw LV223 is bad and they chose to interpret that Shaw and David have gone to the "right" place and hence it is a mission to colonise and protect and all the Covenant motives that go with it. Its not a rescue mission urgently dispatched its a changed view of exploration following the coming together of T & Y. To arrive by coincidence would be horribly plot point expeditious something must trigger the destination maybe even a bait from David.        

When they get their they find out what David the sole survivor has been cooking up, left to play God, and then we get some answers about the engineers and how the specific Zeno cycle has merged with its bio mechanical input. We learn about the Engineers third party. If their is a huge head lurking in the Sydney Studios we might get to see some more murals and David may have learnt and interpreted those for us. I certainly see D8* as a big information disseminator on matters Engineer/Zeno

BD takes the view that the Hammerpede and Deacon are representative of the Black Goo's catalytic effect in various combinations they are showing us what goes down rather than lead some where (thats always been my view its showing us methodology rather backing into something specific) BUT they may all make a good deal more sense in our understanding of the sub creation mythos once we see some more evolved answers.

One completely random thought maybe the multiple David's belonged to the Shaw/David story line searching out the truth of the Engineers phase. I am not aware of a recent observation, any thoughts ?  

Michelle Johnston -  Perhaps that's not such a random thought.  You may be right:  the multiple David concept could have been a much bigger part of the story originally - in the earlier drafts of the script.  

I'm not sure exactly when we began hearing about multiple Davids from BigDave's source. Or how many drafts of the script they'd already gone through by that point; however, I can confirm that Fox had people looking at the concept in various ways.  At least at one point there was going to be another David or three in the story...

It's possible that the idea has survived in some form, yet the info about multiple Davids being in the film is something that leaked years ago;  if it's still part of the script, then it probably has changed form in some way.  

What I think has changed, is that there will only be one additional David in the script now, who would be David 9.

I also agree with you that happening upon the planet by chance is highly unlikely.  It's so improbable that it's almost out of the question. Somebody on that ship knows exactly where they're going.  The universe is extremely vast, and the planet might not be anywhere near LV-223, so the odds of them bumping into David out there in the great expanse of the universe are incredibly slim.  I'm thinking that at least one character is in the know.

Your thoughts on what happened with the Derelict/its pilot's act being sacrificial in nature are intriguing as well.   

BigDave -  I've always thought this next prequel movie was going to explore all the stuff you mentioned in more depth too.  Not only LV-426 & the Engineers/Space Jockey, but also things like how the merger happens.

The Weyland-Yutani corporation itself really interests me for some strange reason.  I was actually looking forward to seeing the hows and whys behind the merger; however, now that they're skipping over showing that, I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed.  Mostly due to my weird personal desire to see more of the merger.  Mostly.

They really don't need to bring back Hicks and Newt. That's just Fox performing fan service. So yeah, I'm a little worried about Alien 5.  My mind's not made up yet though.  I haven't really decided how I feel about it.

It's neat that Alien 5's happening, it's just really hard to figure out how they're going to continue "Ripley's story" and have it all make sense.  It's like you said, the movie runs the risk of becoming a mindless popcorn flick.  

With Blomkamp saying that he's not really ignoring Alien 3 (and instead running parallel to it), I'm not sure how any of it will work. They'd need to win me over with a good story, and a very logical reason why Hicks and Newt are suddenly back (Ripley too for that matter).  I kind of hope that there's some sort of virtual reality shenanigans going on in the plot of Alien 5:  that it turns out it's only a simulation & Ripley is stuck in a hologram.

Your source once mentioned a bizarre Matrix-like concept, right?  Well, what if I was to tell you that almost everything we see in Alien 5 is a virtual reality simulation? What if the machines have hijacked reality itself by that point? (/Morpheus voice) Maybe the creator of Bishop asks Ripley if she wants to stay in the dreamworld, or if she's ready to wake up. Lol.  Not saying this is what actually happens. It's just a hypothesis/theory of mine. 

Carlyn, Thanks for your thoughts much appreciated. On A 5 you have to say multiple time lines is pretty tricky I see real jeopardy there. I would much rather they take 3 and 4 out of cannon by a simple starting plot device rather than parallel it. At the moment it reminds me of fan fiction where people re write relationship outcomes to get what they want. The only hope is being science fiction they have a good science answer. So far the effect of A 5 is to pull the Prometheus sequel away from the elliptical Lindelof vision and crutch out a tight narrative with answers to me thats not such a bad thing.    

@Michelle

Yes i agree with them points, who knows however where they are going with Alien Covenant....  i had a  theory, which i put before and re-hashed with the Covenant Badge news Post... 

But the Weyland Yutani means my theory may no longer apply, and so yes while the Synopsis could suggest the Crew were not so wise as to what is going on...   Now we have Weyland Yutani behind the Covenant mission  or Technology this could indeed be the first time the Company has attempted a Order 937....

The Covenant Crew for the Most Part could think they are off to a Paradise, based on information the Company has given them, where the Company has not been completely honest... Maybe David gave the Location of Paradise then?

The Company set up a mission to go to a uncharted Earth like World, which would rule out the Coincidental Plot that it happens to be where David is.. when the crew and reason the crew set off to this World, had no idea..

To now that someone does... but the Crew dont... they think they are off on a mission to a Earth like World.... not knowing the Companies real intentions... and with a hidden member with a Agenda.. not so hidden like Ash.. just with Hidden Motives like Ash i.e Order 937

This would work...  and the Nostramo was maybe the 2nd attempt but using some other excuse and also having a hidden Android and then finally Hadleys Hope was the 3rd attempt to set up a Colony on the Moon LV-426 where they did not know about the Derelict or Xenos?

Yeah right as Prometheus and Alien Covenant would prove they did.

Sorry last reply covered mainly what Caryn was covering.

To expand upon that.... the Multiple Davids was part of the time when Hell on Earth rumor came out...  The source who is vague, said nope Hell on Earth is not Prometheus 2 they thought maybe it was Alien 5 working Title? but that Prometheus 2 was simply going to be called Paradise Lost or Pandemonium or combination... i.e Paradise Pandemonium....  which when you think of it Paradise and Pandemonium are maybe alternate States , Yin/Yang Tranquility and Bliss vs Chaos and Disorder.. but also Heaven/Hell.

The Source around the same time of these Hell on Earth Rumors, said  yes there is more than one David but dont expect a Army of them... more like less than a handful.  Also Shaw does not Die... (Technically) and No Ripley in the draft as of October 2014

Little hints that Yutani play a big role eventually too and so the Merger may not have happened early and off the bat as far as the Paglen/Green Draft.

so yes Alien 5, may have triggered a change of its own Plot, and Prometheus Sequel to fit in together a bit more... hence Logan brought on board.

So yes... also i feel just going from Weyland which now has lost its Two CEO's to then 10 years latter we have Weyland Yutani is something they could have covered...  but again same could be said with how there is no Shaw, and maybe no or little left of the Engineers.

But thats not to say these wont be covered latter... and that right now they have maybe had to come in from the Back Door, Rear... because of Alien 5....  so it would be like maybe how Star Wars EP-4-6 was out before EP 1-3 but set after...

Maybe there is hope that events prior to Prometheus and events/questions get answered latter and the events between Prometheus and Alien Covenant get answered too.

As far as Parallel with regards to Alien 3 and Alien R it would be interesting how they do this...

We have options.. maybe here is a few.

* They are dreams.. but elements of those dreams will come true as far as Alien 5.

* Some event causes a tear in space and for a Parallel universe to open up.. i put  a theory that what if David caused or somehow with Engineer Ship managed to open up a tear in space near LV-426 to travel back in time to LV-426 thousands of years ago.. and Covenant enters the same Tear in Space and Time.

This then becomes unstable during the events of after Alien Covenant but the Blast in Aliens somehow triggers its again and sends the Sulcao into Alternative universes...

* There is already Parallel Universes in Existence... Aliens ==> Alien R is One.... Aliens ==>  Alien 5, 6 etc is another..... Likewise Prometheus ==> What ever they had planned before.... and Prometheus ==> Alien Covenant are other alternatives.

I would take option 2 out of those. Its a way that could tie in the events of David to Alien. And yet still have the Derelict be there for thousands of years....

Yes even though its all Terminator Genisys... maybe the True plot is closer to that than we think.... and David is the Key part in all events in the Franchise... his mission destroy Earth, for the Engineers as they made a Covenant to not retry... and they have made a Covenant with David to make him more Mortal yet Immortal and Godlike in return for David to set off a Secret Covert Plan and Pull the Strings to lead to mankind's destruction then he can be God of Earth and his Androids.

@ Caryn...

Yes the source mentioned Matrix, and Blade Runner but they would not go into detail, just that once the movie is out (based on the Draft by Green/Paglen) we would after seeing it played out.. pick up themes from Matrix and Blade Runner.... but they said it wont be too literal.

Just how Prometheus links to the Bible, God, Prometheus Myth and Angels/Fallen Angels but again the connections where mild in a theme and these themes are to be explored but it wont be literal... same with Paradise Lost... he said there is theme there, a theme seeds in Prometheus set... that ties in a connection between Prometheus Mythos and Greek Titanomachy  and Bible but more so Paradise Lost theme... these all have a connection, which is also connected to Matrix and Blade Runner as far as a theme....  but they would not Spell out what... so as to not spoil it.

But they claimed seeds of the theme has already been hinted at and delt with in Prometheus... using your head and looking at how Prometheus Plot and Greek Titanomachy  and Biblical Paradise Lost and Rebellion Themes, and Prometheus/Lucifer all could connect and also themes in Blade Runner and Matrix... would give you the back story to the Plot..

They dont say much no more... not for 2 months now.. they dont know what Alien Covenant is about, only it has been re-changed for some reason, and so like a jump from Alien Engineers to Paradise... but both kept a lot of themes.... well Alien Covenant could be doing a reverse and so themes from the Green/Paglen Draft could make it into the movie.. or at least by the end of the Prequel Franchise.

PS..... while i went off Topic.... in regard to the Paglen/Green Draft...  the image at the Top of this Thread... is indeed what ONE of the Xenomorphs in the earlier drafts was to look very close to.

Alien Covenant however now hints to seeing the more Traditional Xenomorph from Alien as opposed to a fresher form based of the Original... (Necronom IV)

@Big Dave and Carolyn.

If David 9 is incoming on the Covenant I think my idea of real drama out of D 8 and 9 would work just as I suggested David 8 and David real.

What I like about this idea is David 9 is W/Y 937 driven whereas David 8 is now self employed. You could argue that two androids going head to head (excuse that) is equally dramatic but two David's would work nicely with the naive crew and the dopple ganger jeopardy.  

Indeed interesting.....

The Weyland Yutani Badge blows my hopes of a Earlier Covenant mission departure and David 8 meeting i  who's likeness he was created in....    before that release... that nearly rule out that... unless its a relative of someone who David 8 was modeled after i.e Grandchild?

Seeing Fasbender in New Zealand and Australia around the time of shooting without his David Blonde Locks made me wonder if that theory was true..... but nope... the Badge now confirms the Covenant is newer than 2094 well at least the Crew and Mission is.. (i.e Weyland Yutani)....  maybe another David Model like the David 9 has different Hair Color?

I think having David meet a more advanced version of himself could work as a interesting Dynamic... David 9 is superior to David 8... only David 8's flaws make him Less of a Slave to company and Free.. and well what ever Engineer Technology David has played around with could make him more Advanced... or indeed Evolve David 9 to then be used in David 8's experiments.?

Some had said David 8 may have a Agenda against the Crew and Mankind and Swap Places... well i hope Shaw does a Good job or who ever else put David back together so it fools the crew as surely how are they to hide any marks from having his head torn off?

As far as David and as you say Michelle a potential other Android i.e other David having a Order 937 Mission... and so David 8 being not the Antagonist maybe this could work?

Or maybe he is a antagonist but he redeems himself in the End... but still i am torn to the Space Jockey being a relative to the Engineers, and either a Race above the Engineers/Creators of Engineers or a Race Below the Engineers and Creation...

I am drawn to the Space Jockey as being a Benevolent being or one that had done something Heroic.. but this could be in regards to his Own Kind.

Japanese Kamikaze Pilots where seen as Heroic as far as Japan goes and Perl Harbor... But to the USA there actions would have been seen as Hostile and Cowardly.

The thing is and whats interesting is every aspect and connection with the Franchise as a whole, can take any route there is NO SET path they have to take...

On the Covenant badge thread I deliberately left out any speculation about the Space Jockey. I wanted to focus on the front end rather than backing into.

The decision to remove Shaw from the narrative was a big decision and I am inclined to believe her withdrawal is connected with the decision to thread down to A L I E N. She knows far to much for that narrative movement. So how can you get the maximum output from her in this re aligned framework. The most tension would come from her being a victim but one that survives and redeems the situation - she could maintain her covenant with God.  Equally if there is a unique personality in the jockey chair whom by the grace of god has come to intervene that personality could save Shaw and fulfil her expectations of her faith. To "Hicks" her seems lame and some thing the other end of the franchise is trying to put right a point that can not be lost on Sir Ridley.

The other huge theme would be for David to find his humanity and in doing so recognises the ultimate of human qualities sacrifice for others. 

If we are backing in just being a pale guy is not enough it has to mean something so that whilst the outcome is predictable the back ground to that outcome should be fully invested. 

I understand what you are saying, with the Space Jockey.

Maybe to have it be that the Actions were Heroic and to Save Earth?  Ridley had said it was Heroic Action but maybe only as far as its own Race.

But then as you said, maybe for some it would be better that the Space Jockey is not a Engineer, but David or Shaw?   I am not sure this would be the case.... but maybe  a Engineer doing the deed, because of David or Shaw? To redeem himself (Space Jockey).

Timeframe for me is still the big issue, but nothing on-screen has said the Space Jockey has been there for any time period...  although the mild Xeno links and Alien connections (Juggernaught/Engineer Suits) and how prior to 2000 years ago LV-223 was a Outpost that was going well...  to me could link to the events being connected as far as in History and Past... i.e thousands of years ago.

But it does not rule out, using some kind of Time Shift/Travel to allow the events of Prometheus/Covenant to link to Alien.

I think to not have more clues to what the Mural, Frescos meant in Prometheus, and more about Engineers in particular the Questions Shaw wanted to ask...  to have these not covered would be a Waste!

Also to kill Shaw off, and not show How ever would be Lame, to not even mention her at all ever... i.e so we dont know if she died, where she went NOTHING would be far worse.

Big Dave: I can understand the Deacon connection to the Xeno but the Hammerpedes were just confusing and were straight up unnecessary I think. Did they show the Hammerpedes to show that the Xeno could have different relatives or something? It didn’t make a lot of sense to me, the Squid and Deacon connection did however.

To say that the Deacon and Hammerpede made the first Xeno just seems dumb to me. There were not enough clues in Prometheus I think, if they would have kept the Xeno Fifield that would have helped a lot. I don’t say that the movie was impossible to understand but it wasn’t as well explained as it could have been. The Prometheus movie that I have watched gave the Engineer a face burn after he was biting the Squid so that made sense to me.

As far as infecting a machine, maybe it is organic life but that its existence is like a machine, mechanic (as a metaphor). I don’t know. It could be interesting if it would explain the bio mechanical nature of the Xeno but I wonder how they will do that but I doubt that it would can be made in a way that is kind of logical maybe you can explain that better. Maybe I have missed something.

I think as far as the time line and space travel and so on I think that there might be some accident that the Engineers didn’t even thought would happen (the Alien on LV-426 I mean if that is what you hinted at). You can plan your technology (its purpose and so on) but there is always a risk that you miss something. This happens to humans and it would probably happen to the Engineers because I don’t buy the idea that they are perfect because if they would then the scenario with LV-426 wouldn’t have happened.

Yes I think that the Space Jockey is something similar to the Engineers. I don’t buy that it is a human, that would be too disappointing if it was.

@ Big Dave

Space Jockey

Now that we are "backing in" rather than being offered methodology the Jockey has to be part of the story rather than emblematic.

If it is a benign jockey you have to build that notion with an audience other wise it becomes a dot plot movie. We have to be emotionally invested in it and "feel" the heroism. With a movie to follow introducing a specific engineer who we come to know is not impossible.

If it is someone whom we know "their spirit" but radically changed but still identifiable we would be intrigued by that transformation and their ownership of the challenge.

I want to throw a complete spanner in here. Benjamin Rigby was hired in October so belongs to the Paradice Lost/Covenant phase and he made what might be an important point and I quote "Because there's an end result being the original Alien, it has to connect". 

Ridley has said there maybe one two movies after Covenant this maybe a smoke screen given he would have to have an outline to get there I wonder if Benjamin is telling us Covenant is the link between Prom and  A L I E N. People working in Sydney have clarified there not working on three of Scott's movies but one again may mean nothing or something.

If so  the idea of a transformed radically different re engineered D8 or Shaw taking off in the Croissant and crash landing the deadly cargo would rise in my view.    

Questions

As to your questions that need answering the reason why the Zeno, we know that is in, and giving context to that decision can tell us a good deal more about the Engineers and of course its in the original title P L and Milton's poem we know there is a fall and that suggests a desire to sub create "in order to create first we must destroy" .

If I am right those who wanted a much more detailed account of the mythos of the Engineers maybe disappointed. The way your diagram of all this worked for me is the answers are from the Mankind/Zeno end of the telescope with the Engineers down the other end. To switch the telescope round and look back from the Engineers could take away the mystery and is more jeopardy for a tent pole movie that needs human character to sell. I like my gods and semi gods to remain remote veiled in a mist.  One of the reasons the acolyte was a lone finger and the elders withdrawn was to add mystery and intrigue I like that. The same logic was applied to removing the Engineer Dialogue offer the least amount to make the point.  

Yes interesting view of it all Michelle  and we cant rule out what they are going to do as far as the Connection or Time Line of it..

While since Alien and After Prometheus clues was that the event occurred a long time ago, and was a Space Jockey/Engineer.

There is no 100% Proof if we only go by what is scene on Film and so they can take this anyway they want.

They have hinted a number of different ways to the connections over the years, and so things either changing or they was not quite sure how to Tackle it.

But i think they do now have a PLAN and they would want to cover this to completion by the time they make the Final Movie in the prequel.

So Ridleys comments over the years  that point to a few thousands of years ago and a being related to the Engineers who was carrying a deadly Cargo.

And Lindeloffs the Deacon is a Proto Xeno and Hammerpedes are connected in some way to the Origins...

Cant not be take as either being what we shall be shown.

@ Thoughts_Dreams

The Hammerpedes where to show us the Goo, Evolves what ever life it comes into contact with,.. it takes the best Genetic Traits of those Organisms, and then evolves the rest with Xeno DNA.

Shaws Squid was more Xeno, because the base Organism that was infected was a Unfertilized Human Egg, which meant less DNA to Reprogram and Evolve.

I would assume if Shaw was already a few months Pregnant before bieng infected with Xeno DNA and this DNA infected the Baby then we would have ended up with something like the Alien 3 New Born

Well other concepts..

Big Dave:

When I watched Prometheus a while before my intention was to understand how the Deacon was born at the end. For some reason I don't think that the Hammerpedes are necessary, they are more confusing and like a side-track.

One problem with Lindelof is that he puts in things that don't make sense so you got to throw out some of the things that he adds in order for things to make sense. For me the Xeno connection was interesting in Prometheus. What I am hinting at is that Lindelof seems to complicate things and while the Hammerpede did so then maybe it was Lindelof's idea to have it there.

Alright so the Hammerpedes are affected by the goo but what is the connection between the Hammerpedes and the Deacon/proto-Xeno except for acid for blood? This is my problem with the Hammerpede, it doesn’t make sense as far as the Deacon or Xenos are concerned.

For me the Deacon was made from Squid + Engineer. The Squid was from Shaw. Did the Hammerpedes had anything to do with that? Maybe not, I am not sure if that is very likely.

The whole process was to show The Black Goo, in those Urns is somewhat connected to Xeno DNA.

The movie originally tried to show us these Connections, that Black Goo + Genetic Material = Hybrid of Original Organism and Xeno DNA

The Changes to Concept, and cuts to the movie made it confusing.... if we looked at the Sacrificial Scenes in Both Spaights and Lindeloffs draft then Fifield Scenes in the drafts (no the movie) and find common ground between Sacrificial Goo/Scarabs and Urns Goo/Scarabs then the connection is much more easy to see.

Compare these, and if these was shown and not the Toxic Avenger Fifield....

And we had seen more of the Trilobite scene, as you have to wonder how Originally the Engineer got burnt... i have covered this before...

Then the Xeno connection is more simple.. its not a mess

Alien Engineers (Spaights) Fifield After Transformation

"The label stencilled on the space suit reads FIFIELD. But the
face is of no human shape. A hideous hybrid of the crewman
and a hard-shelled Alien, pale and horrific.
Its helmet has been shattered by the growth of its elongate
skull. Spines have burst through the suit from within, down
the crewman’s spine. Clawed fingers piercing his gloves."

Paradise (Lindeloff) Fifield after Transformation

"We only get quick glimpses of what was once FIFIELD -- It
moves so damn FAST -- It’s BIG though -- FERAL AND ANGRY"

"FIFIELD turns his attention on them -- NARROW ELONGATED HEAD
that has PUNCHED THROUGH THE HELMET OF HIS TATTERED SPACESUIT
-- GREY GLISTENING SKIN -- HE RISES TO HIS FULL HEIGHT"

Concept Works above...  Actual Worked on Props Below.

The drafts even describe the transformation scenes, with Spaights being more detailed.

"FLASH ON:
The microscopic world - as strange DNA invades Fifield’s
bloodstream. Virulent strands of protein attack the native
DNA, transforming...
FIFIELD
As his pupils dilate, breath hissing into his nostrils. His
expanding body stiffens as if shocked by a powerful electric
current. He screams. Falls, convulsing."