Alien Movie Universe

Let's Talk About Goo...

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ElectricAve

OvomorphMember12 XPJan-05-2014 1:13 AM

Hey, so I know there are a lot of goo theories out there, but I think I have a simple new idea about it, so tell me what you think. Here it is:

The black goo in the urns is the broken down remains of the sacrificial engineers.

Exhibit A: Urns are for dead people.

When people die, we sometimes cremate them, and put them into urns.

Ashes (original concept art)... 

Urns (dark angels)...

 

Also compare to Egyptian canopic jars, which preserve the remains of the dead (the canopic jars were always four in number, just like the ampules in the urns)

 And note the function of the urns/ampules: preservation (from the Weyland infographic):

Exhibit B: Sacrificial Engineer breaks down - into black goo!

Unlike the concept art, he decomposes into goo - we see it leaking from his ears, fingertips, flooding his brain, etc.

It has the same color and viscosity as the black goo leaking out of the urns:

We also see droplets of it swarming around his body like flies ('Beelzebub' is Hebrew for 'Lord of the Flies'), before falling in and dispersing into the water. The black goo is suspended in water, and when David flips the ampule over - it falls to the bottom, reminiscent of the waterfall scene:

Compare to the closeup of a goo droplet: 

The gold flecks swirling around in it are from the gold glop he consumed:

Exhibit C: They do the same thing

The opening is ambiguous, but basically the Engineer's DNA is either
1. Incorporated into primitive life, causing an evolutionary 'leap', or
2. It is the primordial soup from which the first forms of life emerge.

Either way, we see the same thing happening with the goo from the urns:

1. DNA that is incorporated into pre-existing forms of life, causing an evolutionary leap (remember, evolution is synonymous with *mutation* - that's the mechanism by which all living things evolve):

Or, 2. Primordial soup from which life emerges, spontaneously:

Exhibit D: Parallels between Shaw & David's analysis

These scenes are intercut for a reason - the things they are examining separetely are directly related. Each scene is answering the other scene's question (vice versa).

David pulls the urn from the freezer ('Let's have a look at its DNA' - Shaw). David unscrews the top of the urn, and sets it down on the table, symbolizing decapitation (Shaw tells Ford to isolate the strand of dna from the decapitated head). Now in the commentary, Lindelof says that if the goo was place under microscope, we would see dna (The dna sample from the Engineer matches the human sample = we are the same as our "gods" and Shaw whispers, "Oh, My God"). David pulls the ampules out of the urn (there are four, just like four Engineers per Juggernaut). He unfastens one, and flips it over. The liquid streams down -again, symbolic of the waterfall scene that begins all life on earth('It's us. It's everything.' - Shaw).

She then asks 'What killed them?' and it cuts immediately to David 'decapitating' the ampule (suggesting maybe a machine killed them? maybe an android? David & Goliath). David then takes a drop to his finger and says 'Big things have small beginnings' (Earth as the tree of life that grew from a single seed - an engineer).

(I'd love to hear other interpretations of these intercut scenes!)

Exhibit E: Parallels with Holloway

This kind of segways into what the goo does vs. what the goo is, but those concepts kind of go hand in hand, so I think it's important to review how Holloway's death echoes the deaths of the two Engineers.

1. First notice the similarities between the two engineers - both were turning black. Although the sacrificial engineer was being broken down - his dna eventually reformed again, so you could argue that he was actually 'in a state of change' just like the black cells on the severed head. Also, there was an emphasis on his brain during the waterfall scene, as the camera zooms out of microscopic level - suggesting it's the same process that the severed head was undergoing. And recall the oozing urns - they don't ooze from the seam under the lid like you'd expect (from the 'neck') - they ooze from top of the lid (from the 'head').

So my best guess here is that the decapitated engineer was poisoned with the gold glop. The only supporting evidence for this is an alternate still from the movie where Holloway discovers the sacrificial bowl in the tomb, instead of the green crystal. Obviously one bowl is not enough to break down the 10 or so bodies that are running down the corridor in the hologram, but a one-drop dose might be enough to screw them up biochemically - just like the dosage differences between Holloway and the worms/hammerpedes.


(So here is the first parallel between Holloway's death and the Engineers)

That still leaves us w/the question of why the head exploded while the other Engineers' didn't? It might be because Shaw ran an electric current through the head. Gold is a great conductor, so the current may have interfered with the process somehow - maybe supercharging the gold glop - so that instead of simply breaking down, it exploded.

2. During that scene, Charlie is drinking in the background. And the next time we see him is at the pool table, where his drink is spiked with a drop of black goo. Immediately following the poisoning scene is the scene in the caves - where Fifield and Milburn stumble upon dozens and dozens of dead bodies (were they poisoned just like we saw Holloway poisoned?)

The following scene, we see Charlie again - he walks into Elizabeth's room, and stands in the midst of the Hologram - I think this is more than just foreshadowing his own death, but illustrating a direct connection between the two deaths - because we know he is poisoned at this point:

3. He dies in his suit, just like the decapitated engineer, and he gave up his life willingly, just like the sacrificial engineer, and the pain he was suffering through beforehand was similar to the two engineers' suffering.

In forensic pathology, the three things to consider are the cause, the manner, and the mechanism of death, and I think although the mechanism was different in every case (Sacrificial = rapid cellular decomposition? 223 = decapitation, Holloway = set on fire), the cause of death was the same for the Sacrificial and Decapitated Engineers (gold glop), and the manner of death may have been the same for Holloway and the Engies on 223 (poisoning/homicide).

So that's it - let me know what you think :)

 

** Text and Image Assistance by Freeze **

 

31 Responses to Let's Talk About Goo...

ElectricAve

OvomorphMember12 XPJan-05-2014 1:14 AM

So I thought the FAQ page said to use bb code for image - what am I doing wrong? =(

And what's w/all the backslashes around the quotation marks? lol

Anunnaki50

OvomorphMember1 XPJan-05-2014 3:22 AM

Lets talk about Goo baby lets talk about you and me, lets talk about G.....Oh your talking about the Engineers weapon. :)

The Anunnaki were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, mighty men of high reno

Anunnaki50

OvomorphMember1 XPJan-05-2014 3:30 AM

They aren't for dead people as in Exibit A or B its that its really a weapon for real and its not for seeding life, at least not this substance since it mutates or kills whatever living thing it comes into contact with. It's for destruction not creation because they don't retrieve the DNA from the water and then put it inside an urn. Also, I like your idea and comparison with the four canopic jar theory from ancient Egyptian burial practices. The black goo is very much organic and a mutagen in my opinion.

The Anunnaki were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, mighty men of high reno

ElectricAve

OvomorphMember12 XPJan-05-2014 8:30 AM

LOL Thanks, A-50 :)

eta: I was thinking more that they captured the mutagen from the body as it was breaking down. So it doesn't come from that particular individual at the beginning, but from other engineers who sacrificed themselves long after that. The 'weaponization' comes from the fact that it was captured and stockpiled - when the goo dissolves in a large body of water, it's like adding minerals to water - it makes the water healthy to drink. But if you were to concentrate the minerals into tablets (say it's iron), and consumed a bunch of them with only a small glass of water, then you could get sick = "The dose makes the poison" (ie, it's how they're using it that makes it a weapon).

Ridley is very visual, and I think this idea really relies on the visuals to speak for itself, so I'm gonna see if I can get this fixed (god, those backslashes lol).

FREEZE!

OvomorphMember0 XPJan-05-2014 1:07 PM

@Electric Ave, BB Code is no longer used with our new editing system. It is now much easier to use. 'What You See Is What You Get' like you'd have with any word processor.

[url=http://www.madmax4-movie.com/]Visit the Mad Max: Fury Road Forums today![/url]

ElectricAve

OvomorphMember12 XPJan-05-2014 1:12 PM

Ooooh! Okay :) Thank you so much for fixing it <3

Anunnaki50

OvomorphMember1 XPJan-05-2014 10:52 PM

Its a good assertion and assessment but Holloway was only given a pin-head amount. It could have been highly concentrated or no matter how much you use because of what it does maybe like poison dart-frog poison. I believe its got to be more of a living thing but only broken down manipulated DNA so that when it attacks your body it turns you into dangerous parasitic things/zombie-like and thats the weapon part imo.

The Anunnaki were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, mighty men of high reno

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPJan-06-2014 9:29 AM

some nice work there interesting....

 

I Guess we can never be sure whats going on, especially with all the changes to the concept of the Goo as the movie progressed, The Weyland File that was meant to tidy up and try to explain what was going on, basically contradicts what we see.

The simple answer could be going back to where the IDEA of the Goo came from.... SPAIGHTS NANO SCARABS!

The Goo was just a way to replace the Bugs with a Mutagen, and if we accept this and then look at Spaights Concept and Idea for the Scarabs it makes sense.

In Spaights draft the Sacrificial Engineer opens the Sacrificial Cup and tiny nano scarabs come out of it and they consume his entire body, molecule by molecule....  In Lindeloff's The Goo consumed breaks down the Engineer molecule by molecule.

In Spaights draft a primitive primate, gets bitten by one of these Scarabs and this Scarab injects its cargo of Engineer DNA it consumed via Sacrificial Scene, into this primate. This primate then starts to mutate and its hinted this is what lead to Evolution of Mankind from Primate via the Injection of Engineer DNA.

Lindeloff's we see the Engineers broken down genetic material forms into a black liquid this then goes into the Water, and fuses with basic lifeforms and starts to Evolve and Mutate them, which is to show the kick start of Evolution on Earth from simple bacteria to complex life.  All possible because of the Engineers Seeded DNA via the Goo.

Spaihts draft we see Fifield is bitten by a Scarab, he then becomes a mutant and mutates into something that has Xeno DNA..  If we look at the Sacrificial Scene in Spaights draft then these Scarabs either a) consume a host molecule by molecule that then stores their DNA to be passed onto next victim.  b) we see these Scarabs bite and inject DNA consumed from a Organism that at some point these Scarabs had broken down.  Thus all signs are that the Scarab that bitten Fifield had injected a cargo of DNA that gave him Xeno Traits and DNA, just as the Primate that evolved to Mankind was bitten and injected with Engineer DNA.  Thus the Urn that contained the Scarabs that attacked Fifield must have consumed and broken down Xeno DNA.

Lindeloffs we see that the Goo in the Urns seems to pass on DNA Traits to what ever Organism it comes into contact with, this was more evident by the other unused Fifield Concepts inc the Animatronic Fifield which was the original idea at the time of shooting.

We see the Worms get infected with the Goo and take on Xeno Traits, and indeed if we look at the most Xeno DNA in the movie... that is the Deacon that came from Shaws Baby which essentially performed the task of  Face Huger and was a Hybrid Human/Xeno Face Huger.   This again shows via Holloways infection with the Goo leads to the most Xeno DNA Organism in this movie.

If we take this simple look and connection with Scarabs vs Goo, we see they both in the Sacrificial Bowl break down the consumer and allows this broken down Organisms DNA to then become something new that can pass on its traits to what ever Organism it encounters.

MURAL

If we now look at the Mural and Altar, we see the Deacon in that Mural is in some sort of Sacrificial Cruciform Pose, now if we go to Spaights Draft the Engineer took the same Cruciform Pose right before he was broken down by the Scarabs,  this pose was to show it was his Sacrifice.  If we look at Christ on the Cross this image is not to show us Jesus, it is to remind us exactly of his Sacrifice on the Cross to Save mankind of its Sin.

Thus Cruciform  = Sacrificial Pose....

The Deacon in the Mural takes this pose, so this does not mean its God, but that it is to show that this Organism was Sacrificed for some purpose.. if we connect that with Spaights Cruciform Sacrificial Engineer, then we also look at the Altar and see the Sacrificial Bowl in the Original Shoot.

It all makes sense....

Some Xeno related Organism is Sacrificed via same method as Sacrificial Engineer to produce the substance in the Urns.

Think of it like this...

If the Sacrificial Engineer Sacrificed himself while he was in a large bath or VAT with a pipe that would collected the broken down Engineers material (Black Goo) then this is collected into a Jar.  If this Jar as then poured into the Water Fall would the result not been the same?

My theory suggesting if a Xeno had consumed the Sacrificial Bowl at the Start of the movie then its DNA would been seeded and that all life on Earth would carry Xeno traits and not Engineers.

This is the simplest way of looking at the Goo and Mural....

Why the exploding Engineers?

Lets assume that some variant of the Goo (Sacrificial Bowl) or even the Black Stuff breaks down then reforms DNA, what we have if you look at the Sacrificial Scene is a Volatile Chemical Process, now if we take some Coke and Add a Mint we can see it causes a Violent reaction to the Coke in the Bottle, and as the bottle is closed the Gas will try to escape out of the quickest and weakest route.  If you do this to a bottle of Coke, then shoot at it the Bottle will Explode... If you make a hole before putting a Mint in and then you tape up that hole, once the reaction starts eventually the Gas/Coke will explode from that hole.

 

Why the Mural, What connection?

This is one area we just cant be sure, but i would assume that these Engineers had lost the ability to procreate and bare offspring.  I think at some point these Engineers had came across a Organism by accident (as in Star Beast) and one of them got Face Hugged and produced the Deacon in the Mural (Shaws Deacon is different its part Human).

These Engineers then went on to worship this Organisms life cycle, it ability to allow them to bare a Child (Xeno Embryo) while this is not traditional birth it was to these Engineers something that mimicked something they could no longer do.

I would go as far as to say these Engineers then Engineered from the Xeno, all sorts of Bio-Tech and then also decided to use the Organism as a Weapon and other experiments to try and advanced their Genetics by incorporating Xeno DNA as they considered it to be a Perfect Lifeform.

I think Earth was target to try this new Evolutionary step on Mankind first.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

malex234

OvomorphMember0 XPJan-06-2014 3:48 PM

Very interesting post on the most perplexing issue with Prometheus - "what is the goo, and where does it come from?" The film offers lots of clues, but I wouldn't want to step out on a limb and say that there is a clear cut answer to that particular question from what we were shown so far.

ElecricAve made an insteresting point about the similarities between the urns and Egyptian canopic jars. While I don't believe that the urns are necessarily the remains of Engineers, the presence of the urns was enough to lead Holloway to assume that they were as part of the basis for his "just another tomb" comment. On the other hand, essence of Engineer is just as good an explanation for whats in those urns as any of the countess explanations that I've seen. Logically speaking though, the urns cannot be just Engineer DNA, assuming that their DNA and ours is really the same, because our DNA does not trigger xeno type mutations. However, my personal view is that the urns must contain a mutagenic compound that is perhaps combined with DNA of some species. It seems to me that this compound simultaneously destroys existing life and recreates life in another form. This thought ties in with David's observation that "to create you first have to destroy."

I'm still not totally convinced that the goo at the beginning of the movie has exactly the same purpose as the stuff that's in the urns. We assume that the Sacrificial Engineer is creating humanoid lifeforms on the planet he's seeding. That would be correct if the goo has the ability to set the forces of evolution in motion in a controlled fashion with the end result of creating humans. However, we don't know that for a fact that it always works that way. What if some times the Engineers seeding went awry and resulted in the poisoning of a pristine world with the result that it is now filled with monstrous mutations? What if the goo is similar to the genesis torpedo in Star Trek II, in that it can create life on a barren planet, but could be a weapon of mass destruction when introduced to a planet with existing life? Again, no clear cut answers to this one either. And what is the tie in with our old friend the xeno? Does the goo create the xeno or does the xeno create the goo? Again, the goo at the beginning could be the mutagen plus Engineer DNA and the goo on LV223 could be the mutagen plus xeno DNA which would be a weapon indeed.

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPJan-06-2014 4:08 PM

@malex234

I can answer some of those in my post above...

In nutshell i think that these Engineers Sacreficed Xenos or related Organisms to create what was inside those Urns, using the same method that they used on the Sacreficial Engineer.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ElectricAve

OvomorphMember12 XPJan-06-2014 9:31 PM

@BigDave & Malex - I see what you mean that the black goo may not come from the Engineers because the organisms that sprout from it are decidedly xenomorphic. My feeling is that the gold substance is either based on, or derived from the xenomorph's acid blood (it breaks down everything it touches, similar to the effect the gold substance has on the Engineer's body). DNA resides in the nucleus of a cell, so in order for the Engineer's DNA to blend with it, it would have to penetrate the cell wall (that's what the acidic gold stuff does - that's why they made a point to show the gold flecks on the closeup of the droplet). The reason only normal life springs from the Engineer at the beginning is that the black goo is diluted, and the more exposed an organism is to the black/gold goo, the more acidic/xeno-like it becomes:

Waterfall goo = one part per millions and millions of gallons = maybe earthworms grow legs

Drop of goo in one cup of water = one part per 1/16th of a gallon (literally MILLIONS of times more concentrated than waterfall goo) = may turn human into an Engineer (Holloway?)

Swimming around in black goo = BILLIONS of times more concentrated = turns earthworms into hammerpedes.

 

And the deacon mural may actually represent something like DaVinci's "Vitruvian Man"

Remember in Alien, Ash describes the xeno as a "Perfect Organism" - that's very similar to the Vitruvian man illustrating the perfection of the human form. Davinci "believed the workings of the human body to be an analogy for the workings of the universe" - so it also works in a religious context (maybe the xenos are the basis of their religion, and they aspired to "perfect" the human species by evolving into that form?) 

ElectricAve

OvomorphMember12 XPJan-06-2014 9:56 PM

ps - thanks everyone for your feedback :)

@BigDave & Malex - I was thinking if the gold substance is just nanotech, and the black goo does come from some type of xeno organism, it might be from an egg - since it's right there on the ceiling mural (possibly collected by the crouching, bird-like creature?)

image

image

Maybe they harvest an egg that is already open, and pour the gold substance into it (that might explain the alternate shot of the sacrificial bowl). The egg decays, they capture the goo in the ampules, and that's why the creatures that come from it are xenomorphic.

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPJan-07-2014 11:50 AM

@ElectricAve

Some interesting points and this is the thing with the Ambiguity of the movie, as we can have any number of explanations, your Vitruvian Man reference could also be valid, as it is to represent ideal human proportions and physic thus perfection.

My interpretation is mainly fitting with what Spaights draft was trying to show us with connection to how the Sacrificial Bowl the Engineer Sacrifice Scene worked and how it was intended to lead to Mankind and then taking how Spaights draft showed us how that process was, to then  what Fifield had encountered when he knocked over a Urn.

I think the Urn the Goo etc was based of this concept, only evolved more by Lindeloff, so basically thats why my theory well interpretation of the Goo was.  Also how the Mural Deacon was in a Cruciform pose like how the Engineer in Spaights draft was.

Thus the Sacrificial Substance breaks down a organisms DNA and causes it to become a Black Liquid (Contained in Urns, and also dissolved into the Water.. only from different Sacrificial Victims) that then has the ability to break down the DNA and Mutate the DNA of which ever Organism this Black Substance then comes into contact with and the Substance passes on Traits and DNA it acquired from the Sacrificial Being.

Now where and when the Sacrificial Substance came to be is a mystery, it could be the blood of some kind of Organism, or it could be as you said have different effects depending on how much is consumed, this is what the Weyland File is trying to suggest.

However we have to ask how come Holloway via Shaw produced the most Xeno DNA end product as opposed to how limited Fifields was yet he was exposed to more substance?

I guess we can only wait for the answer, but i would still suggest that the Sacrificial Substance purpose is same as Spaights Nano Scarabs and that is to break down Genetic Material of the Sacrificial Organism into a new chemical that can pass on the Sacrifices Genetic Material onto a life from it comes into contact with thus creating a Hybrid/Evolution.

But as for where the Goo in the Sacrificial Bowl which was more of a thicker material that did react and appear to dissolve when it reacted with the air, where did this substance come from well who knows.

One theory i have as to the Xeno was that they re-engineered and borrowed their Tech from them as the Engineers at the start seemed to lack the Bio Tech Look, and their Ship was not as Giger as the Derelict etc. This scene was set what many Millions if not over a Billion Years ago and hints at Start of Evolution on a Planet via interference via Engineers Sacrifice to cause basic bacteria and life to Evolve into complex life...

And Ridley said maybe the Engineers Tech as far as Derelict is Millions of years old, this led some to think the Derelict was over Million years old, but Ridley said later the Derelict crash landed on LV 426 within few hundred years of the outbreak on LV 223.

So he means they had that Bio Tech for Millions of Years, but the Engineers at the Start seemed to maybe not, and it would be ok to assume that scene was set much more than few Million Years ago.

Thus at some point maybe they came across some lifeform that they decided to re-engineer, to experiment and also borrow tech from. Just as mankind is now using Stem Cell and Genetic Engineering to Harvest Spider Silk from Cows Milk.

Who knows, hopefully we will find out where the Sacreficial Substance came from.

 But as far as the connection between that Goo, the Engineer and Goo in Urns, well my interpretation is what Spaights draft seemed to try show us, and is simplest way to look at it.... that does not mean its the ANSWER... may be closer to Spaights idea and answer but as to what Fox wants and where they wish to show us, who knows.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPJan-07-2014 12:14 PM

@ElectricAve

Your 2nd post is something i was going to make a thread about, i call this the ENIGMA or the missing Link.

Yes that Xeno Hand with the Egg, does look like this creatures Hands but also the Xeno has the same hands, exactly the same.  This Bird Like Creature is thus some connection to the Xeno.

Could it be ultimately what the aim of the experiments was? Or was that the Deacon in Mural, could it be this creature is ultimately where the Xeno DNA comes from?

I would not want to explore the Xeno much or the Deacon, but this creature and the connection yes, because we have little or no information but if indeed the hands holding the Egg are that creatures then this organism is of just as much importance as the Mural in the Temple Complex.

Its also not the first time we have seen it.....

You see above concept from Star Beast of which Alien was based off?

On the wall you see a Chest Buster event, one which seems to show a Oranism not to dissimilar to Shaws Baby Trillobite as it was grown, i.e the one that attacked the Engineer. But the Organism  this Octopoid is comming from looks a lot like that Bird Xeno Creature in the Fresco.

Here is Dan O'Bannons sketch of what he intended the Alien to look like.

This has a resemblence to the creature being Sacreficed on altar in Star Beast Temple and also the Creature in the Fresco in Prometheus.  Are these 3 images connected?

Could this creature be the missing link?

Should we find out what this creature is and its connection?

I hope so....

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ElectricAve

OvomorphMember12 XPJan-07-2014 3:17 PM

Yes I'm familiar w/the Spaihts' script :) You make some good points about Cuddles vs. Fifield, but considering that Fifield was infected by inhalation, I still think the concentration is far less than what Holloway experienced, and far more than the waterfall concentration.

As far as the squid baby - I agree that a mutated sperm fertilizing a human egg should have resulted in some kind of hybrid human vs. a tentacled parasite, but the worm growing out of Holloway's eye might be a clue. All human bodies host microscopic parasites, and interestingly, alcohol inhibits their growth - so I wonder if Cuddles was not actually a parasitic worm that found its way out of Holloway's body during intercourse (much like the one in his eye was trying to make its way out) and tricked Shaw's reproductive system into providing nourishment for its continued mutation (the umbilical cord).

The Starbeast mural pic is awesome :) To me, the creature looks more like a bug than the one in the Engineer's mural (the beak was pretty distinctive - it actually reminds me of a plague mask - could be a visual clue about their purpose = handling biohazardous materials).

 

 

Which brings me to the xeno hands, which you say are exactly the same as the ones shown on the egg - I have to disagree completely about that. I found a couple of shots from Alien, and you can see it has 6 fingers instead of four, they're not nearly as long and spindly as the bird-creature's, and it the fingers naturally part in the center of the hand (which also looks different from the hands holding the egg).


 

malex234

OvomorphMember0 XPJan-07-2014 5:16 PM

Really good points Big Dave and Electric Avenue.  After reading your last post I'm convinced that the bird-like creature is indeed holding the egg in mural rather than a traditional xeno.   Going back to the Star Beast concept, if you will recall there was another stage of development in the alien life cycle which we have not seen as yet - the adult.  Our old friend the xeno is supposedly just a juvenile and is very agressive until grown.  In the drafts, supposedly the adults were civilized and intelligent beings but had all died out as of the time of the landing on LV426.  Is it possible that the bird-like creature is the adult form of the xeno?   Or is the bird-like creature  merely the host for the xeno embryos?  I can't say for sure, but these are at least possibilties to explain all the strange murals.   

ElectricAve

OvomorphMember12 XPJan-08-2014 9:28 AM

@Malex - It's funny b/c the bird & egg similarity is something I noticed after someone posed the question of how the 426 Engineer could have gotten all of those eggs onto the Jug without getting facehugged? That's when I remembered the open egg from the mural that showed some hands carrying it, but didn't show the rest of the creature. Since the only other ceiling mural we get to see is the bird one, I compared it, and lo & behold, they have the same hands.

Another good support for this idea is the fact that the facehuggers are perfectly adapted to the human head - whereas the birdlike creature has a more elongated head, and of course, the beak - which might make it impossible for the facehugger to impregnate it.

Another thing that struck me about that mural is how the Engineer seems to be petting the bird-like creature the way a human would pet a dog. The symbiotic relationship between humans and dogs goes back thousands of years - they helped us track down prey, and then we rewarded them with a share of the food. Maybe those bird creatures naturally preyed on the xenomorph eggs (springing them like a trap, to get the facehugger out so they could eat the egg), and the Engineers found a way to tame and train them to retrieve the eggs, so the creature could eat, and they could take samples of stem cell material to eventually create the goo in the ampules?

On the other hand, the scene with the Last Engineer caressing David's head is reminiscent of the scene in the mural, and might be a visual clue about the bird-like creature (it was engineered to help them retrieve eggs - much like Weyland created David to help him retrieve the urn from the domes - it might not even be organic, or totally organic - maybe some type of biomechanical golem/robot to parallel David's artificiality?) 

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPJan-08-2014 10:11 AM

Indeed hands do look same as bird creature of what ever it is, and i said that they do and that also those hands looked like the Xenos too and thus there must be a connection, as we cant see the face we cant say if its for sure a Xeno or the other creature as there is no face and thus its ambigious like everything else..

By Xeno i meant how they seem to look after Alien, we have to remember from after Alien the design changed a little, better visual effects they can do more detail than the rubber man hands of Alien.

If we look at the Aliens and onwards Xeno hands we have 4 sets of fingers, only the centre 2 sets are actually like 2 fingers joined so we get a 1+2+2+1 for 6 fingers.  Which is what the creature holding the Egg and Fresco both have.  But i would sugest it is most likely this is the same creature as the Fresco and some how it is maybe the predessor to all things Xeno?

As far as Fifield, well again the Spaights draft shows us differently, the toned down and alternative Fifield that was used in the movie AKA Toxic Avenger Fifield had lesser Xeno DNA.

Weyland released that file to clear up and point to same points you make...however...

If its inhaled then that means its airborne..... why was no one else infected?

If consumed then why does the Sacreficial Engineer and Holloway lead to a none Xeno based event and a Xeno DNA one? Again maybe as you and the Weyland file point out, it depends on the amount of Goo consumed...

But then how come Fifield who got a small face of Goo when he fell face first into the stuff, ended up effected with less Xeno DNA but the Worms who was swimming in litres of the stuff ended up with more Xeno DNA,  if the larger the dose the less Xeno i,e Engineer vs Holloway.

Totally dont make sense well it kinda does just not as simple as Spaights, and thats the problem i think thats why many casual Alien fans or just casual Sci Fi fans never mind those who are not, could not grasp or understand what the hell was going on in this movie.

Spaights draft was more thought out and coherent... While Lindeloffs well on paper yes better ideas, just not executed well and have holes and contradictions that Lindeloff puts down to ambiguity but really its just his style and just like Loss, lots of cool ideas just thrown together with no thought on how they link together.

Im not saying i am right, nope my view is just from what i made of the movie clues and also looking at links at root level to Spaights draft of which the Prometheus movie was Evolved from.

But they seem to be going with Lindeloffs as Cannon and even made the Weyland file to try and explain and make it simple which all it did was conflict things worse.

Hopefully we would get more answers so we can find out how they want to go with the Goo and connection, and we would have to accept which ever explanation they give in future movies as the TRUTH, just how i guess we have to accept the Space Jockey was a Space Suit which some dont agree with.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPJan-08-2014 10:22 AM

Oh another point is the Eye Worm, i was going to bring that up the other day..

 

Again another clue that is left to either Ambiguity or another not really well thought out peice of work by Fox/Lindeloff.

 

But i had similar alternative idea that you share, it could be that this Eye Worm is same thing that ended up in Shaws Womb, is it a Sperm that has become mutated to become a Parasite and one made its way to his Eye?

Could it be the Goo contains micro nana parasites that are so tiny like Sperm, that the eye cant see and these then infect and change the DNA of organisms they contact?

Could it be that its some other cells of Holloway that are infected and become these wormy things?

Could it be that the top half of the Ampules contain a substance that contains these tiny parasites that are related to the Xeno, and the other part contains a substance like the Sacreficial Substance and thus when the two combine the Parasites DNA is broken down and forms into the Black Substance that then infects the Worms and Fifield?

Thats the one thing thats come good from the Ambiguity is that well anyting can go to be honest, no ones 100% right and no ones 100% wrong. Its what fuels the debates what keeps this site and others going,  where two seperate people who have different views of the clues can debate in a respectful manner (most of the time).

Electric Avenue its a pleasure to debate with you and your ideas are well founded and sound, and look forwards to more.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPJan-08-2014 10:41 AM

Oh to add, looking at it from a non Alien fan i spoke to a few about the movie, one Alien FAN, more Aliens the other casual Sci Fi Nerd and another well just casual viewer.

And its interesting to see their views on the movie, only the Alien fan had some idea of what the movie was about as far as conections, this person was very disapointed though as the movie failed to answer and connect in a way they expected.

The Casual Sci Fi fan thought was a bit of a hit and miss movie and said missed chance to link to Alien as it never really and thinks its just a reboot.

The Casual Viewer well they never had a clue what the movie was at all.

You see the more Avid Fan would watch Prometheus over and over and disect it, they would read the drafts they would also see the many concept works and artwork and actually seen more detailed Mural and Frescos, as to be frank on screen we never got to see the Mural fully not in a way we can make out the Face Hugger type creatures and Bald Victims and the Fresco was not as clear as the images posted on here and only lasted for few seconds and the Egg one was well mostly broken down by the time it was shown on screen for a split second so most viewers would not have noticed.

Also i think the lack of Xeno DNA in Fifield mutation compared to Spaights and Concept and the alternative work done for Prometheus especially the unused puppetry. 

Had Fifield looked more like that, and had the Mural been shown more clear and frescos more clear and longer, and had the Engineer actually appeared as 10ft+ then yes i think more Alien fans and Casual Sci Fi buffs would have seen more of a connection.

Anyway about the Eye Worm the Casual Sci Fi fan made this observation.

He missed the little split second things like Egg Holding, and the Worms under the boot of crew member.

What he made out is interesting and not bad idea, just wrong idea.

What he saw was that these Urns contain a tiny tiny wormy things like Holloways Eye Worm.

He saw that some how the Urns when leaked they leaked these Worms that grew and mutated because of the black stuff, basically the Hamerpedes was just grown up Holloway Eye Worms. That grew fast because of the stuff in Urns.

He saw that the Holloway Eye thing grew slower because it did not come into contact with what ever was in the other part of the ampule, a accelerant.

He thought that one of these worms passed on to Shaws Womb and either combined with her Egg or it some how managed to Evolve in her Womb to become the Squid Baby of Shaw.

He speculated that the Hammerpedes would evolve into the Face Hugers from Alien.

And Fifield mutated because he just got the accelerant black stuff that made him mutate and grow out of his suit.

You have to say its a valid observation, but one that does not look at other things that someone who has followed the movie and franchise would pick up, and also not really the Sacrificial scene.

When i brought that up, he said ah... well that stuff must be the stuff thats in bottom half of the ampule, and it must be something that breaks down a lifeform and then remakes them but slightly mutated... hense we slightly different to Engineers but similar and thus Hamerpedes to Holloways Eye Worm.

And you see if the shot of the Holloways Eye Worm was not part of the movie, and we had a more clear shot of the Worms under the Crew Members Boot or even the "our first Alien Scene was in the movie) then i am sure this casual Sci Fi fan would not have made the same conclusions.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPJan-08-2014 10:47 AM

And finally for this Topic today lol

 

The Birdy or what ever connection with Egg etc... well in the Fresco this creature is in a Fetal Pose. Its is also very similar to God and Adam Fresco from the Sistine Chapel in which case then this creature must be some kind of servent to the Engineers? Or Creation of theres.

You see the Fetal pose is either one to show, a submissive pose like some kind of pet etc. 

Or its kind of like a Baby Fetal pose, thus shows the Engineer is the father/creator of this creature.

Again both could be wrong, not sure as again its very ambigious but indeed maybe these creatures are used to transport the Eggs? Could they be what comes before the Xeno, or again could they be a evolution of created from the Xeno.

There just is no sure way to tell, and i hope we do get a connection at some point and know what it is, but i welcome others views on what this creatures relation to the Engineers, the Xeno and Eggs are and what its purpose is.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

malex234

OvomorphMember0 XPJan-08-2014 3:35 PM

More great points Dave and Electric, but all our reasoning shows just how hard it is to come up with a consistent explanation for the goo.  At this point I'm about ready to chalk it all up to Chaos Theory (I can see the grin on Ian Malcolm's face).   Perhaps the different results are attributable to the same factors that cause foods or drugs safe for most of us to become like deadly poison to others.   I personally don't like this explanation but it could explain some of what we saw.  Perhaps the goo is like a virus, and it reprograms our cells to do its bidding, but like a virus it can mutate and produce different strains (ie different results).  This of course is the inherent danger in any bioweapon, you might just create something for which there is no antidote.   Quite possibly that is what the Engineers did to themselves.

On the strange bird-like creature, I believe we should be calling it a bug like creature.  Unless it is wearing a suit like the space jockey it appears to have an exoskeleton.  Perhaps it is a giant bipedal ant or termite or something like that.   

The mural seems open to many interpretations.   It could be that the creature is the pet of engineer.  Or it could be that the creature is the slave or servant or vanquished foe of the Engineer (insteading of petting the creature the Engineer could be seen as subjugating it).  Or something I just noticed sparked a different thought altogether.  If you will notice both the Engineer's and the creature's heads are bowed.   Perhaps this is a relgious ceremony, like a blessing or an annointing.   Perhaps the creature is the Engineer's new favorite and all of this elaborate plan is just to reseed the earth with these creatures.   Who knows, but I hope we get some answers in the sequel.

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPJan-09-2014 9:30 AM

Well Birdy is not the right name lol Its has no name, its a ENIGMA!

The Fresco from Prometheus shows what looks like a beak.... but if you look at the images i posted we see that the Star Beast Sacrificial Creature has like Odontomachus (Ants Mandible Jaws). Then we look at O'Bannons sketch of the Adult Organism and it also has these Mandibles.. thus from the angle of the Prometheus Fresco these could look like beak but could infact me Mandibles.

This has to be the missing link for sure, i dont quite by the idea of the Goo at the start of the movie being created from blood of some creature well if so certainly not this Ant/Xeno Creature.

I think the answers have been in our faces all along, you see Ridley and Giger set out to create the Xeno as being like a Insect, and this what not simply just a invention Cameron added in Aliens.  Ridley also said that the Human DNA was part of the Alien, now we know that because a Face Huger takes on traits of the Host to produce the Xeno.

But could he mean that the Face Huger has itsel a link to Human or Humanoid Creature?

This new/old Enigma of a creature could now have a Ant like Head as far as its Jaws and not Human like Jaws like the Xeno. Could this mean what we have here is this creature is the Orgins of the Xeno and the Xeno is simply a experiment created from them.

Thus the Urns was a futher experiement with same DNA/Bio Weapon but re-weaponized for Safer Storage and Deployment as well as more varried application.

We just cant be sure, maybe its no Accident that the Face Hugers on the Mural are the same as the ones in the never used Alien Mural and that they appear to be a mix of the Traditional Xeno Face Huger and the Prometheus Trillobite.

Thus those Murals show the Original Organism?

 

 

 

Now 1st Image is Gigers Facehugger MK2 this looks more like the Prometheus Murals too, and the orginal Giger Mural MK1, notice this has like a Beak too, so maybe we are talking Beaks rather than Ant Jaws.

The 2nd image is Giger MK1 Face Hugger and this looks more like a Grub and it has more resemblence to the Alien Face Huger as the tube it implants the Embryo from is in the centre and not from creatures mouth, now Gigers Alien Mural MK2 has a traditional Face Huger and Space Suited Humanoids and not Bald.

Note however in these Images above the Bald Victims suit... looks like the Engineers does it not?

The thing is the Fresco in Prometheus shows this Enigma Creature to be in a subbmissive or fetal pose and so this indicates the Engineers either created this organism or have dominion over it.

So like i said there is plenty of interesting ideas to the Orgins of the Xeno, without us having to see traditional Xenos, and maybe we can get a clearer connection to the Urns Goo and also the Sacreificial Goo and where both came from.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPJan-09-2014 9:35 AM

Anyway this site as most of Gigers Facehugger and Eggs Concept work..

http://monstersandbeasts.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/facehugger-original-designs-by-hrgiger.html

Here is the earlier design of the Egg, and you see we have to ask what are those structures and dont they look a bit like the Urns? But then they look like they form some part of a Wall Structure like maybe Honeycomb that Eggs are stored in.

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Necronom 4

NeomorphMember1566 XPJan-09-2014 11:42 AM

It's funny how discussions about the black stuff always turns into a debate about the eggs! :)

Regarding the strange hunched-over creature in the fresco, as far as i'm concerned, that creature and the thing holding the egg, are one and the same creature! They both have EXACTLY the same hands! Why it's holding an egg is a complete mystery.

 

The poster was good though!

 

Necronom 4

NeomorphMember1566 XPJan-09-2014 12:03 PM

Also, why do people keep calling it a "birdy-creature?" I can't make out a beak? It looks more like tenticles or barbs to me.

It looks alot like the Dan O Bannon sketch that BigDave posted!

Could the lumps and bumbs on it's head be a clue as to what's happening to it? Has it been exposed to the black stuff and it's cells are undergoing change, like the head of the decapitated engineer?

Maybe, this strange creature was transformed into the first queen using the black stuff?

 

The poster was good though!

 

Necronom 4

NeomorphMember1566 XPJan-09-2014 12:18 PM

I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that, the black stuff, contains the DNA of this strange creature.

The poster was good though!

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPJan-09-2014 4:28 PM

Thats the thing with the whole Prometheus clues they are very ambiguous that can keep us all guessing and who knows how close some of us are or how far off we all are.

I would say yes the Black Stuff in the Urns contains some kind of DNA, now i thought they Sacreficed a orginal Deacon to make the goo in the Urns, but the odd thing is they contain ampules that have two parts and that there must be a reaction at some temperature and attpospheric changes that causes these two components to break down and merge...

What is the other part? Something that helps to store the one component?, a accelerant?

Or maybe the top half contains some nana parasite that is related to the Xeno or that Creature and the bottom half contains a substance similar to the Sacreficial stuff?

This other theory is nearly what a casual Sci Fi Fan made of the movie and Holloway Eye thing, well i taken what he said and put this other theory out there.

What if the stuff David had on his finger contains a micro parasite that grows and evolves into the Eye Worm and one of these made it to Shaws Womb and either merged and mutated or impregnated her Egg i.e they are some kind of Alien Space Sperm/Worm. Or the worm got to her Womb and using it was able to grow and develop to the Trillobite baby?

Now if the top contains these worms that are not what effected Fifield or Hamerpedes, what we have is these nano parasites in the top of the ampoule, when the storage mechanism dissolves and these parasites in the top are then merged with the Goo from the Start of the Movie stored in the other section what happens is this Goo breaks down the DNA of these Parasites and we get the Goo then carrying their DNA like the Engineers was carried in the water.  This then mutates the LV 223 Worms and Fifield to carry on traits from the Xeno Parasite?

Well this is another explanation and indeed pretty much many others could be the truth as well lol

I still would say that the Goo at the start of the movie and the whole contents of the Urns are not the same.. i.e its not the same substance that has different effect depending on amount and how it is absorbed.  But Fox seems to be going that route, where as mine well fits more with Spaights concept.

Will we ever know the connection of the Goo at the Start and the Urns? Will Paradise show us? and show they are the same or not?

But whatever is going on with the Goo etc, we still have the Fresco Creature in the mix somehow?

Its not the Deacon in the Mural

The Deacon in the Mural is most likely not Shaws Off Spring.

Its not a Xeno in the Mural.

Those are not Traditional Face Hugers

They are not Trillobites.

They are something else, that maybe predates the Xeno and Deacons, maybe the Mural Deacon is what you get when a Face Huger infects a Engineer and a Xeno is when it infects a Human, but then maybe its different because the Deacon is what comes from these different Face Hugers on the Mural?

But some how the Fresco Creature plays a role in all of this, maybe its just coinsidence that the creature holding the Egg could be the same, and that O'Bannons Sketch is similar and how the Star Beast Sacreficial Creature on the Walls of the Altar room is similar?

And finally how the Giger Face Huger 2 is similar in its face, and how this Face Huger is most like the ones in the Prometheus Mural... Thus there must be a connection and does the Xeno/Deacon/Urn Goo all come from this Organism we have yet to encounter in the franchise apart from the Fresco?

And what connection to it does the Sacreficial Goo have...

Well hopefully we can find out some day.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Necronom 4

NeomorphMember1566 XPJan-09-2014 5:35 PM

LOL! We just keep going round and round in circles! Well, FOX, Ridley and Lindelof wanted to give us all something to talk about, but instead, they have actually got us all chasing our little tails!!! Because we will probably never know what that creature is and what the green crystal is used for.

Were there actually ANY questions answered in Prometheus, apart from finding out that the SJ is a humanoid in a suit, who belongs to a race that created us?

"Let's go from one extreme to the other. Instead of handing everything to them on a plate, let's not give them ANYTHING atall."

Like waving a big juicy steak infront of an hungry dog and then slapping it across the face with it!

Nice.

The poster was good though!

 

Aretheseallreal

OvomorphMember0 XPJan-09-2014 6:13 PM

You're right about multiple ideas about the 'goo', official images call it a weapon with film references going and elaborating even further, one thing can be certain and that's that it mutates with air exposure and expands but also two sorts, thinner liquid that turns darker and the expanding liquid, both harmful, both having effects in mutating animals/humans..

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