Alien vs Aliens

Zim: That took some serious balls. Starting something like that on here is like... Well... "starting something like that on here." Craigamore: absolutely brilliant arguments for defending your point of view. Snork: lmaorof! Everyone else: thanks for playing nice. This kind of post can get ugly fast. Glad to see this place is a class act!... (thanks BH!) PS. RC8, I think you and I may be the closest in thought on this one. All 4 films belong in the alien universe and I like the way you gave them each a specific purpose in the overall story. Now... Let's see in 89 days how they all began!

Wow...I had no idea there was a 5th......shows how much I've been obsessed about 'Prometheus'.

Thanks db...I try

It's being filmed at the moment, only just started too, I think it's going around the world this time ;-)

Mind is blown....wasn't sure that had any legs left...guess I'm wrong.

I'm also gonna' throw in my 2 cents about the studio shirts whom we all seem to equally despise... 2 of my former students stopped by my (teaching) studio recently. One is successful in the Indy market and has recently produced a cool little web series under consideration from some decent TV media outlets. The other optioned out of being the youngest Dev. Exec. of a major studio after 3 years to go back to writing. It should be noted that neither of them are older than 30. The later young man told me yesterday that he returned to writing because he was tired of the sub-par ideas he's been privy to in development these last few years. I think this speaks volumes. If major studios are receiving say, 3000 scripts a year and are only buying say, 100... And are only actually making say, 10... That should tell you something. There's apparently a lot of crap floating around LA. Personally, I've read some stories from you guys that would rival some of the best stuff that 's coming up from Hollywood. Remember, it's a lot cheaper for them to run an established franchise into the ground than try and create something fresh... Damn the torpedoes... And the fans.

One more thing invaderzim42...as to this..."as for the airlock thing, yes its a little ridicules, but does not bother me at all, i can suspend my disbelief for that, and if you are really complaining about that, then why not also complain about where is the gravity coming from in the nostromo? because that's just a ridicules thing to complain about, who cares?" There are two entirely different logic paths being followed here...and there's no substantive basis for comparison. First, In 'Alien', gravity generation on the Nostromo is an assumed technology that has no further bearing on the plot of the story other than the fact that it obviously exists. The concept of gravity generation bends the physical rules as we currently understand them, but does not break them as it unprovable as to whether it is plausible or not. Second, the moment a film allows its audience to break its suspension of disbelief it loses credibilty. This is even more dangerous in science fiction, where audiencies are being asked to take a leap to begin with. The climax of 'Aliens' with its airlock miracle of Ripley pulling herself out is, as you admit, a little ridiculous. In this case, rules of physics are not simply bent, they're shattered. SSgt Fett argued that, "not knowing the cubic feet of cargo space along with still open hatches they could have easily had a few minutes until all the air vacated the cargo hold into space." No amount of oxygen on a ship of any size would be a large enough quantity to fight the immense force of the vacuum of the entire void of space, which is immeasurable by the way. The kind of force that vaccum generates with that kind of size behind it does not allow for such a minute amount of oxygen to last any reasonable length of time greater than a split second - especially considering the size of that freaking airlock - we're not talking about a pinhole here. Physically, the concept is impossible. Instant depressurization in space means no air.....all gone, just like that.............all that being said, this is no minor oversight. It is so ridiculous as to cheapen the entire film.....as in any other action film when a stunt or explosion appears stupidly over the top or impossible, it gives the audience an excuse to break suspension of that disbelief and it [b][i]should[/i][/b] lose self respecting movie goers at that point. This is the kind of thing that usually makes people roll their eyes and it should. For it to happen in an Alien film is pathetic, especially considering the first film takes the time and effort for its lead to put on a suit so that she won't die in the process of blowing the airlock. As to your last question....I care, because I expect more of my filmmakers. I expect them to respect our intelligence as an audience enough not to ask us to buy impossible moments like that. There's a big difference between stretching what's possible and slapping us in the face with the assumption we're too stupid to care.

a movie does not need to follow reality to be good, have you ever seen Walle? one of my favorite movies ever, and it breaks reality more times then i can count.

Movies don't have to follow accepted reality. They establish their own, but when the reality they establish requires an acceptance of the basic laws of physics, then it [b]must[/b] adhere to the rules it establishes, both intentionally and unintentionally, or else it it loses its credibility. That's an immoveable foundation of sound writing. Writing establishes a story's rules in the course of it being written. The act of writing forces a writer to intentionally formalize the world in which he or she is telling their story. The process of writing also results in the rules being established unintentionally. Good writers are aware of both circumstances; they know when it is appropriate to bend them and that he or she should never break them. The Alien saga assumes in its story telling that its physical universe applies and is bound to the laws of physics as far as they are known to this point. No one can fly, no one can breath in space and no one has magical powers. It is accepted and understood that human beings are as fragile and susceptable in that universe as they are in our own. It also follows that the laws governing matter in it's various forms and their relation to the forces of the vacuum of space are accepted in that universe as in ours. Again, breaking that basic level of understanding about something as simple as the dangers of an open airlock in space is [b][i]INSULTING and OFFENSIVE[/i][/b] to intelligent viewership of the moviegoing public. No, "movies do not need to follow reality to be good," but only in as far as it applies to a movie such as 'Alice In Wonderland' where the point is to defy accepted physical reality rather than to operate within it as the Alien franchise asks us to do at a basic, substantive level.

Comparing Jason X to Alien made my night =) I do get your point, but that is like comparing Rambo part II to Apocalypse Now! You can find similarities between all kinds of trash (I did enjoy Rambo though) and serious films. It doesn't make the movies comparable. I LOVE "Aliens" (hence my name). You just have to enjoy it for what it is...a perfectly executed James Cameron movie...interesting story and characters (definitely very similar to Alien in the whole rescue/overheating countdown explosion area), perfect production...keeps your eyes glued and knuckles white! With that said, Alien makes you think, wonder, obsess... It is dated and clunky at times, but still just as unsettling as ever. It drives you crazy that he doesn't show or explain more, but that was the genius behind it, as everyone here knows. The irony is that even though you can find similarities in plot structure (horror/androids) to Jason X, you couldn't find two movies that are more different, or further apart in quality or approach. Alien = a horror movie in space taking itself VERY seriously Jason x = a spoof of a horror movie in space, winking it's eye as it makes fun of itself Alien = amazing, never before seen visuals and ideas Jason x = cheap, seen a million times effects, again to make fun of itself Alien = a B movie upgraded to a serious film that still shakes people Jason x = a spoof of a B movie Aliens = a great movie by a great director with characters and guns that people fell in love with while clenching their teeth and covering one eye.

oh no.......not another alien vs aliens rant....yawwwwwwn

I'm gonna come out of lurking .. "Alien is not the masterpiece you think it is" Ok we'll talk about this on a technical level as there is no accounting for taste.. The design for Alien is absolutly unique when one considers the time frame.. There are similarities to the interior of the millenium falcon but thats it.. The script is very well rounded if in no way original as a story...The complexities and originality are left to subtext never to fall foul of sentimentality... It's uniqueness as a script revolves around the birth scene which realy has to be seen in the context of when the film was made to appreciate it's impact.. The camera work is flawless.The lighting is second to none.. The music is haunting and evocative..The acting is first class.The dialogue is realistic...The miniatures are top notch...The effects are nothing short of amazing considering the resources avaidable to the crew...The set pieces are intense in thier level of detail and pace. Consider in both films the approach to the derelict or the camera track around the sleeping ships .. Alien actually meditates on what it means to be alone in space..To wake from hypersleep.. to approach an alien ship ..To die at the hands of something unknown.. I disagree that the characterisation is bad .. Every member of the ship is personified perfectly .. There is no doubt who is who and the humanity of each is acted superbly by each of the cast .I actualy forgot who some of the characters were in Aliens and wasn't even aware when they died..The way the marines conducted themselves annoyed me with thier incompetence and stupid one liners.. They cheapened the whole concept of alien life by making references to Arturians etc.. The flaws of Alien are technical... The result of a shortage of time and money..This has been documented many times and admitted by the producers.. More cash = better explosion at the end of the film and a motion control rig.. Aliens is a great movie but it's flaws are based in it's lack of Artistry..(Giger),dialogue and script.. A glib disregard for for the concepts behind the subject matter and the reality the characters find themselves in is actually pretty bizarre when you consider the oppertunity given by the source material.. It is expertly handled in otherways however..But the exact same problems have found thier way into every single Cameron film .. CHEESE! So to conclude ..Imo Alien is a masterpiece for a simple reason.It is as good as it possibly could be within the constraints given to the people who made it..

well, thanks for being understanding everyone, and not being mean lol

We came at it from different directions gritty, but I entirely agree.

Hey invaderzim42....we're here to converse, discuss the finer points of something we're all passionate about and have some fun. You and I can disagree and we obviously do, but there's no ill will there, I hope you know, and I just enjoy getting into it will all you guys. In the non-digital world, I have one friend who truly appreciates and identifies with my love for 'Alien' and my anticipation of 'Prometheus'....and we've discussed it all to death. Who else can I share this wonderful insanity with but all of you? invaderzim42......hats off man...

Agreed craigamore this site is not conceived to tolerate the kind of nonsense that gets debated on you tube and other forums where its used as an excuse to hurl abuse at one another. It has been a pleasure for most of us to debate ideas and thrash out opinions without the need for that kind of stupidity and a lot of us are getting to long in the tooth for that kind of unconstructive waste of energy . After all those of us that were around when the first movie was released are in our mid to late forties and beyond lol. We can agree to disagree and speculate openly without the need for conflict .

From what I heard Die Hard 5 is set in russia and stars john mcclane and his son

Russia? very interesting....

I just wanted to share a personal impression of both films they very first time i saw them. For Alien, my parents and some friends told me about the movie, I was 6 back then. It is funny how I imagined in terms of visuals, something completely different to the actual production design. I was thinking more of a 50's -60's b movie ( i also remember Planet of the Vampires ). For Aliens, Now a 12 year old kid, I went to the premiere at Christmas Eve ( here in Mexico ) with my parents; and of course the thrill and suspense I felt was matchless. Now that I own both movies in Blue Ray, and having a chance to see them without any disturbance; I can see all the flaws and mistakes you guys mention of both movies.

If movie-makers are expecting me to pay to see what they are churning out, I expect a good story as well as good visuals and a sense of believe-ability..... Not a load of crap that has me constantly questioning the scenario. The new Thing movie had some horrible glaring continuity issues that made me feel that all of the effort that went into it was just flushed down the toilet. The dog. Looked NOTHING AT ALL LIKE THE DOG IN THE ORIGINAL. The cavern the ship was in. The Norweigans blew it up in the original didn't they? Not according to the new movie, the ship starting up was the cause of the cavern collapsing............... Over-use of CGI when they had some far better practical effects made and ACTUALLY shot. Covered over with that ridiculous SanderCGIThing at the end. Fucking Hollywood.

Totally agree Cypher, THE THING 2011 is a total proof of hollywood nonsense. Why do all of the supposed hard work of working in reverse some scenes if they drop the ball in the most important stuff like the story and effects. The only thing that worked on me in terms of marketing was Mary Elizabeth Winstead. But really, the THING 2011 is perfect example of what Prometheus should not be and why Sir Ridley does not intend to handle like a direct prequel.

As I was getting to the end of page 3 of this thread, with its enthusiastic, sometimes lengthy (but ARTICULATE) posts by all involved, I was thinking, 'I need to chime in again about how much I enjoy this forum,' particularly because of the consistent level of civility! But then you guys went ahead and beat me to that point too. Here's looking fwd to nekid push ups (or not nekid, I mean it IS Charlize Theron) and extraterrestrial civilizations doing decidedly uncivilized things! -sg1054

"i seriously just wrote this huge thing, and it took me so long that when i posted it the page had to reload and i was signed out, so now i need to re type it " HA!

@invaderzim42..When i go off on a rant(which occurs more often),ill type out a huge reply,but i copy befor i post so if its gets wiped out(cuz i gotta sign back in..ugh)i paste it back in the box on the next go round..been there.

NOW THEN!..(new member,tipping my hat at my fello alien fiends), I love Alien, (scenario) 1981,out of school on summer break,9year old nemec balled up in a blanket in from of the tv at 1am,exploring the channels on the newly installed cable box,alone in the livingroom and bedazzled by soo many viewing options he hears,"next on HBO,a crew battles to survive an alien onboard theyre ship.Sigourney Weaver,Tom Skerritt star in ALIEN,next on HBO". i thought to myself,ooh man!"in space no one can hear you scream"..ooh man,looks scary,am i in over my head here?nah its cool,i can handle it.....i laid there and watched the entire movie from credits to credits and Alien scared the shit out of me.not so much it gave me nightmares but more like"um,hey mom?!!you really want me to sleep in that dark room? alone?..all night?"..i wasnt going back after watching that film..forever impressed..every science fiction film i watched after that HAD to meet the bar alien set or it wasnt worth watching..As Ridley had said"the old dark house,everybody gets picked off one by one".Ridley Rocks m/

Exactly where I'm coming from nemec....totally agree.

I grew up with both. So, I like them both. Even Alien 3. All three tell Ripley's story in a compelling way. The 4th film was just too gimmicky for my tastes. I love Joss Whedon, and the director. However, they should not have been allowed to put their spin on Alien. Felt like a bad comic to me.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDH_TLpMn0g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDH_TLpMn0g[/url]

I am hoping to become a great director in my time, I have a great passion for film and something is worrying me...... If I do become a great director (probably not), if I didmy math right, when I am in my prime of film making, great movies like star wars and alien will probably be close to the 100 mark and will most likaly be re made by the dumb ass studio, and if they wanted me to direct it...... How would I react to that? On one side I would be like "you can't remake that!!!! You will ruin it!!!!" but on the other hand I will be like "but if you are going to make it and I can't stop you, would I really trust someone else to do it?" so what would you do if this hsppened to you? I know that if I ever to remake alien, I am curios what it would be like with no artificial gravity. Just a thought but I always wondered what the movie would be like if it was like that :)