Close
Trending Articles
New / Upcoming Alien Titles
Upcoming Alien Titles
Alien Movies
Alien Movies
Featured Content
Scified Network
Kane's Son

Kane's Son

3 Upvotes34 RepliesUpvoteAdd A Reply
Forum Topic

chli

Nov-09-2019 3:56 AM

In the Book of Genesis, Cain murders his brother Abel and for that God expels him to “East of Eden”. In Christianity, there was a belief that you inherit the Sins of the Father (Original Sin stemming from the Fall of Man). Cain had a son called Enoch.

We have had many a good discussion about the Alien (the xenomorph) and whether it takes on traits from its host. As far as I can tell, the discussions have been centred around physical traits. In Alien 3, the creature imitates some of the characteristics of a dog and runs around on four legs.

Recently I had some discussions with Michelle about her work (which I recommend you to read). She had the thesis that the xenomorph could inherit inner qualities (evil, hate, aggression etc) from its host. It’s an interesting idea.

Thomas Kane was the Executive Officer aboard the USCSS Nostromo. He was the one who got “raped” by the facehugger and eventually “gave birth” to the alien creature - Kane’s Son.

According to Xenopeadia, Kane was intelligent but later on in his medical educational career, he developed “medication addiction” and was expelled from the university. Later on, he graduated as an engineer and became a pilot.

In his working career as a pilot, his medical addiction came back and he was fired. Later, he developed alcoholism. After getting the job as Executive Officer on the Nostromo, he volunteered to be a part of the group investigating the mysterious signal on LV-426 . . .

In the Alien novelization, Kane “was less controlled in thought and action than was Dallas”. Could his psychological traits, his "sins", have been inherited by his “son”?

Can inner, psychological, qualities of the host affect what the alien creature (the xenomorph) becomes? What are your thoughts?

34 Responses to Kane's Son

BigDave

Nov-09-2019 8:04 AM

I have yet to Read Michelle's work i really must do so.

In Context to your Topic, then this is KIND-OF what Dan O'Bannon  had as a idea of the Starbeast, that they can LIVE ON in a New Host and so have some kind of Genetic Memory which is NOT so FAR FETCHED as Ripley 8 had this and so maybe it is something the Xenomorph Possesses.

In Context to the OT... then i think its Plausible that some Psychological Traits are Passed on as well as Genetic, but i think the Beast/Survival and Procreation Instincts take over Mostly (by that a Face Hugged Mother Teresa may-not be a Loving Friendly Xenomorph LOL)

I dont mean to take this a BIT off TOPIC but i guess this is a Expansion of what your Suggesting...   so IF the Xenomorph can somehow Retain and Pass One Genetic Memory then if you could Figure Out HOW this happens, then it could be a KEY to Unlocking a Kind of After-Life/Immortality. 

Ripley was in EFFECT Dead.... Resurrected by her Xenomorph Infected DNA she managed to Regain some of her Memories.... if she Eventually Regained Most of her Memories then in EFFECT the Xenomorph had Granted Ripley a Reincarnation into a another LIFE.

IF this is a attribute of the Xenomorph or a Organism that Predated it, then in Context to the Engineers and Sacrifice what we could have NOW would be a attempt to use the Xenomorph, Black Goo or Organism that it all Originated From as a means to TRY and Unlock a Route to Reincarnation..... thus Immortality.

I think as far as a PLOT then this would have MERGED the World of Prometheus and Alien and indeed been somewhat Lovecraftian....   I always FELT that to use the Xenomorph purely as a Bio-Weapon has too many Pit-Falls and surely there are better ways of Defense..

But if this Beast as other Uses for Genetically trying to Gain some Traits from it, or IF indeed it could provide the KEY to passing on Genetic Memory then the Pursuit of the Beast makes much more Sense.

Great Topic for Discussion as Always ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

Nov-09-2019 2:30 PM

Some traits can skip generations. Others may or may not be triggered due to several factors like environment or upbringing or being generally predisposed. The xenomorph seemed intelligent and all about survival- with some malice from the get go. Not sure how much of those traits came from the host or were inherent to the creature.

hox

Nov-09-2019 2:45 PM

It doesn't really make much sense to think that an Alien could acquire psychological traits like alcoholism. Although a movie featuring an Alien that likes a drink would be a bit of a laugh.

I can well believe that an Alien could acquire the instincts* and physical capabilities of its host, since they are encoded in genetics. If that makes the Alien a better killing machine, that can only make it a more "perfect organism", as described by Ash.

*apart from certain instincts such as nurturing, compassion etc. The Alien would have no need for those traits.

dk

Nov-09-2019 2:52 PM

hox Yes, xenos are plenty mean enough sober.

chli

Nov-10-2019 1:03 AM

Well, alcoholism isn’t a psychological trait but rather a behaviour in response to an underlying psychological trait. Anyway, a loving xenomorph would be something, wouldn’t it? :) But in this concept art for Alien 5, they seem to have domesticated some xenomorphs:

Michelle Johnston

Nov-10-2019 9:35 AM

When Ridley decided to return to the franchise he said no one had dealt with the question of the guy in the chair.

I decided with the information of Prometheus to recalibrate the question no one had asked the question as to the target of the derelict and its cargo?  Once I had an answer to that question it became clear that Kane’s intervention and his subsequent child was an unintended consequence and were a diluted degraded outcome lacking the purity and full potential of the Engineers work. I thought this was an original idea but it turns out that was precisely the vision of Steve Messing one of the design artists of Prometheus.

There were two other elements I decided came into play which explained its behaviour. The Mutagen is a combination of the Fire of Life and a contrived element, which in combination catalyses organic outcomes by biomimetic fabrication and subjects them to an inbuilt base sequence of control by tagging.

However, all life mutates to its circumstances and conditions and Kane’s intervention and the earlier one in my story represent unauthorised interference. So part of the creature's behaviour is about retribution on the host species for interference. That explains its unbridled hostility and remorseless determination to destroy any member of the host species. It is the ultimate example of a punishment tag.

However, there is another element which Chli has very kindly raised up for conversation. Given the actual target of the Ovoid’s would result in an outcome, which is as much about the host as the ovoids, would not mankind’s behavioural tics bleed into the creature.

Mankind is adversarial, driven by fear particularly fear of death (Weyland), over-sexualised (Milburn, Charlie, Vickers in my story) is one of the few species that kills its own kind. Many examples are dysfunctional, unable to cope without drugs (Fifield) or drink (Kane and in a sense Charlie). Mankind was created in the image of their Gods but doesn’t hold on to the beauty and symmetry of David or Venus.          

So it’s contribution to Kane’s child is to be over-sexualised, unable to communicate effectively and metaphorically entirely correct has acid for blood. It's also profoundly dysfunctional, and misshapen, echoing Frankenstein’s creation with its bizarre unlovely rear skeletal structure.

The most elegant element is the head shape shared by the apex of their achievement the Deacon Upgrade, and the head shape turns out in my story to be an echo of a Home World creature with a special destiny, but on the creature it’s a metaphor for male sexuality.

I also felt that each time a Face Hugger/Creature appeared you needed to say something new and unique about it and go into the territory that Chli is raising.

In the first instance, the exchange is between a creature born of a decent host and a female. The exchange between them is built around Ridley Scott and Veronica Cartwright’s observations about what was going on between the creature and the woman.

The first thing the creature does is to pass its tail between her legs and holds her up by it. The implications are obvious he then goes on to spit a secretion on her visor, which could be interpreted as a form of pre-ejaculation. Obviously the female has no idea what this means but she is coming apart at the seems (heart rate through the roof, bowl loosening etc) and in any event, she would consider the creatures next move as rape. But equally, a crewmember is looking on who rapes and murders his victims so a comment about connected behaviour (Chli's point) which bleeds into Elizabeth’s story in Act 3.

On the second occasion a face-hugger alone appears and in a confrontation with David shows its capacity to adapt and use its host's knowledge. David taken by surprise handles it and finds himself outwitted as it attempts to sever his head from his body with the tail of the hugger.  This kicks the narrative forward but enables David to feel rage. 

Finally, there is an incident where a host realises it has the capacity to control what is incubating inside it. This is part of a journey for a host and the mutagen and to show the many-faceted options for both.  Almost the crossroads where Ripley had arrived at but going on further.

chli

I got your point about Kane's drinking it's not about the drinking it's the psychological background to all substance abuse.  

 

BigDave

Nov-12-2019 4:55 PM

I think on ONE hand its Interesting to Consider Genetic Memory.... but then we also have to look at what ASH had said, he said the Xenomorph is not Clouded by Remorse or Consciousness and so maybe we have to Assume he could be Correct and IF-SO then if the Host had say any Hate/Prejudice against a Certain Sex then i dont think that would IMPACT the Actions of the Xenomorph, for example if the Host was a Homosexual Male would that make the Xenomorph only Target Males, or attack them Differently to a Female?

I would say NOT if the Xenomorph has no Conscious?

But then surely it could have some Genetic Memory like how Some Organisms have a Instinct/Knowledge that comes from Genetic Memory and so DONT have to Learn about Certain Survival Instincts/Skills or Fears.  They are Passed On Genetically.

Its interesting to WONDER if the Xenomorph does Acquire some Knowledge from its HOST, but to NOT be effected by any Psychological/Emotional Elements of the Host... so for Example the Xenomorph of Kane could have knowledge from him about the Nostromo Ship and the Escape Shuttle, which could explain WHY it could Evade the Crew and also be aware of the Escape Ship and to go and wait there for Ripley.

The Same Applies to ALIENS as far as the Xenomorphs having some Idea of the Lay Out of the Colony Buildings and HOW to Turn off the Power etc....  if they gained such Knowledge from their Hosts Memories.

With Ripley 8 we get True Recollection of Past Memory, but maybe that ONLY applies to HER via the Process of Mixed DNA.

I think something to Consider as far as PUNISHMENT is that we have seen the Xenomorph referred to as a Demon, the Devil if you would...

So as far as a BIBLICAL Punishment.... its Interesting to Wonder about the Eggs being used on a World where the Actions/Aggression and Destruction of a World and its Inhabitants could come down to the HOST Species.... EVILS/SINS...

But i get the Impression they are a Invasive Species who rely on Procreation and the means to this is WHAT becomes a Threat to the Targets...

It would be like SOLVING a Termite Problem with Genetically Engineered Larger Ants that would then WIPE-OUT and Destroy the Termites...

Then your left with the Same Problem but with Genetic Engineered Ants... UNLESS there was a Kill Switch... so that either those Ants would DIE out after a Period of Time and NOT be able to Procreate Past this Point... or you have a Virus or something to Eradicate those Ants.

So you would expect similar to be Applied if the Xenomorph was a Engineered Bio-Weapon (Eradication Tool).

Sorry that went OFF-TOPIC.. but to swing it back, then as a Weapon/Eradication Tool then having Genetic Memory would NOT be a Good Idea to allow such a Weapon.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Nov-12-2019 8:33 PM

BigDave

I have read this several times and I don't understand what you are trying to say. 

"but to swing it back, then as a Weapon/Eradication Tool then having Genetic Memorywould NOT be a Good Idea to allow such a Weapon."  Are you saying the concept is bad because your statement misunderstands the idea?

So I will restate my idea.

My idea which this thread is built on is not about genetic memory it's about more general behaviour and instinct of the creature when mankind is the host.

It's a storytelling point that mankind and the creature are not so very different.

All Ash is describing is what he sees, "a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality." He has no idea why that is.

My idea is it is a consequence of an A.I's punishment tag. The activation of the face-hugger by an inappropriate target will kick in the punishment protocol.     

However, the Ovoids have been created for a purpose to apply Engineered designed characteristics to a specific very valuable target which amounts to intellectual property theft. So the hugger is programmed to take the traits of the host.

In this case its mankind so the creature is driven by its programme and any hybridised qualities it picks up. Mankind is fearful, aggressive over-sexualised and kills its own. As the writer of the chapter involving the creature I was making the point that its victim did not stand a chance and in a literary sense try and replay what we get in A L I E N with Ash saying you haven't a hope in hell. You have a punishment protocol driving it, general traits of mankind you don't stand a chance.      

It's that simple and to clarify the creature is not a bioweapon it is an unintended consequence which has an inbuilt programme to destroy any members of the interfering host species and it is as Steve Messing indicated a polluted degraded outcome and in my story specifically because mankind is the host.

You could also take the creature's behaviour as playing out Damon's paranoid world view that all children want their parents dead.

 

BigDave

Nov-13-2019 5:55 AM

"I have read this several times and I don't understand what you are trying to say"

This is purely in Context to the Topic by Chli and in Context to about IF the Xenomorph has the ability to take on Psychological/Emotional Traits of the Host and how this would be Ideal or Not for a Engineered Weapon.

What i was talking about was in CONTEXT to the Xenomorph being a Biological Weapon that is Engineered, then that IF that is the Case then allowing for this Intended Parasitic Weapon to have some kind of Genetic Memory and especially in Terms of being able to Carry Over and become Influenced by the Hosts Psychological/Emotional Traits would NOT be a ideal Component you would want for a Biological Weapon.

So i t was not anything to do with your idea.

But i will have a look at your Idea in Context to the OT now,

Ok so forgive but i have YET to read your work, and i really must look into it as it seems a Interesting Twist to the Story ;)

I had said in my Post about maybe some traits could be passed on from the Hosts Knowledge, but i Understand you are referring more to Instinct and i feel in that Context then Mankinds Instincts are to a degree Very Much like a Animals our Primal Instinct is  to Survive, to Feed, to Procreate and then Protect our Off-Spring and as such these Priorities are something that Mankind would go to Extreme Lengths to Carry Out, which would be to KILL if its Needed to Accomplish this.... at this Base Level we are No-More than other Primates...

But then Mankind has other Traits such as Empathy, Reason and Love and Compassion and these are more Influenced by Experience and Environment, i would assume you are referring to more Primal Instincts than these, and so these are NOT picked up on by the Xenomorph Organism,  which also applies i Guess to some Negative Traits like Greed for Power and Pleasure in the Suffering of others...  so i think also a Xenomorph would not pick up on these.

If we look at our Primal Traits then the Xenomorph does appear to be Similar, it Strives to Survive, to Feed, to Grow and to Procreate and for this it Requires to KILL in order to achieve this.  It seems once we have a HIVE then they Serve as a Part of the Greater Whole of a HIVE, rather than Individual Survival it becomes about their Species.

Regarding your Idea that you have taken some indication from Steve Messing, then i have to really Read your Whole Idea and look into Steve Messings Comments..

The Franchise is the work of Many Cooks, its is something that Evolves from Movie to Movie, Concept Artist to Concept Artist would have Certain Ideas about Certain Aspects and the Same applies to Writers, and Ultimately the Directors.

So this Next Part is not really in context to your idea, and so i think we have a Evolving Idea, prior to the Prequels we have RS say the Ovoids are a Bio-Logical Warfare, we are not indicated they are Engineered or Discovered, the Prequels began to show us they was Engineered, which Evolved into the Black Goo in Prometheus which again seemed to indicate a use as a Biological Weapon to Eradicate a World a Cleansing Tool of Sorts.

There is always some element of Ambiguity and Changes and differences of Opinion within those working on the Project.  For example "sometimes to create one must first Destroy"  this could be that the Intention was to Replace Mankind with what Changes would come from the Black Goo, or it also could be that In Order to Start Again and WIPE the Slate Clean then you have to Destroy what  is there First...  But this is the Conclusion of David and so that may not be 100% as Accurate to the Engineers Intentions

I apologize to Chli for this response being a bit OFF-TOPIC

To get it back to Context to the OT then it is a Case of looking more DEEPER into the Reason behind the Ovoids (maybe more than Goo) and so its about exploring and expanding to WHY they was Created and by WHO and depending on WHO and WHY would then be Relevant to how the OT would be applied.

So if we are going with David as the Creator then its a case of WOULD some kind of Passing on of the Instincts/Traits of the Host be something Intended/Designed by him, or just something that the Organism just is Capable of and is in NO way a Engineered Component to WHY they would do this (Carry on Instincts/Traits of a Host)...  but if the Organism is a Parasitic Survivor then carrying on Traits and Instincts is IDEAL to Survive in the Environment the Organism would Find itself.

In Context to your IDEA.. i cant really comment as i have YET to read on it, especially in Context to the Ovoids, the Origins and Purpose of them..

If i look at Starbeast and the Intention of a Host, and then this OT....  then you could assume that the Starbeast Ovoids needed a Host and so a Animal is Used and the Starbeast may have some Genetic Memory that is passed from Ovoid to the Chest Buster that Incubates inside a Host.

The Starbeast would have some Genetic Memory as far as Instincts passed on but would be Quite Feral, until it was Nurtured by its Own Kind and Learns...

And so in this Context and i am not sure if your Idea touches on similar, then a Human may not have been a Intended or Ideal Host.... and so when a Human in Context to the Starbeast Idea becomes a Host then as a Human has more Psychological/Emotional Traits a Soul if you would instead of that of a Animal, then the Ovoid would as a Unintended Consequence pick up on the Traits that a Human has as far as Survival and Instinct that a Animal does-not and THESE are then what Produces a Starbeast that would BEHAVE in a Different way than as Intended (using a Animal).

Thats not me suggesting your Idea is the same, as i have to Read your Idea, or its not suggesting this is what was intended by Ridely Scott as far as the Ovoids in the Prequels.   it was just a way to look at maybe how the Ovoids were maybe not Intended to be Interfered with or in Contact with a Human.... but such Contact has a Undesired Consequence for the Humans, but maybe also as far as the intended Purpose of the Ovoid.  But this really is only Relevant depending on the Purpose of those Ovoids and depending on WHO it is that Created them or HOW they came to be, then depending on that.. would change the Context.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Nov-13-2019 7:19 AM

@BigDave

Chli made it perfectly clear that the context of his question was my work, your throwing the kitchen sink at it obscures the point entirely. 

Can I suggest in order to be as polite as possible that if you ever read my work please PM me and stick to specific reactions to it as a thing in itself and not comparatively to existing works or your own ideas? I know the existing works I have set out the relationship in a glossary and as I have said before if you have ideas of your own which you feel are exciting and have legs then write your own story.  

BigDave

Nov-13-2019 9:06 AM

Well Forgive me i had not Interpreted that Chli's Topic is SOLELY based off your Idea/Work, i interpreted that he was exploring a Idea that after Discussions with you that he had felt you raised some Interesting Things in Relation to this Topic

I would not say I am THROWING any Kitchen Sink at all, and i am sorry if you Interpret my Comments as such, i dont intend for it to come across like.

Maybe i should REFRAIN from Topics until i have read your work in FULL but then i would be Concerned that any Comment could be taken Very Wrong, even in its to the Point of Agreeing for the Most Part.

My reply was to in General discus the Potential of there being some way the Xenomorph would gain some Memory, Knowledge or Instincts from a Host, and to look at ways it could apply, it was NEVER to discount anyone else's view or discussion on the OT at all.

So when the Topic talked about HOW we are shown the Xenomorph takes on Physical Traits such as the Dog Alien walking on all Fours, then we can assume a Shark Alien would have a lot of the Biology of a Shark, because taking these Traits suits the Environment.

I assumed the next Phase was about Psychological Traits and could they be Carried over and i was mentioning that Indeed some Traits like Basic Instincts could be Carried Over to Help with the Survival of the Species in a Particular Environment.   But i also thought about things such as Carry Over some Memories that would gain the Xenomorph Knowledge of say its Environment the Host came from the Layout of the Environment it will Inherit etc.

I apologize to Chli if that is Off-Topic..  I often will explore beyond the BOX of a Subject, and i am sorry if this may seem as Derailing Certain Threads!

So i took the Closing Comment...

"Can inner, psychological, qualities of the host affect what the alien creature (the xenomorph) becomes? What are your thoughts?"

And in part i looked at how ASH and his comments and what we see in the Franchise, and that it seems in Context to the Franchise that the Xenomorph seemed to Run more on Instinct and Survival, and by that if Mary Poppins and Hitler got Face Hugged then both Xenomorphs would NOT really act much different, they would go by their Basic Instinct to Survive and Procreate...    A Xenomorph this Born from a Good Soul would not be making Conscious Decisions like "i should be become Vegan to Protect the Environment/Carbon Foot Print"

And so thats only Part of what i was passing my Thoughts about, and its not intended on taking a Knock on the OT.

I had commented on IF it was a Engineered Weapon then if it could take on Traits of a Host as far as the Psychological Traits or HOW GOOD a Persons Soul is and this Impacts the Application of a Engineered Weapon, then i felt this would maybe not be a Ideal Planned/Engineered Trait...  that does-not Rule-Out such a thing being a Unintended Consequence However.

And so again i am Guilty of taking it out of the BOX, such as to bring in Ripley 8 and her Memory and i should KEEP it to the Specifics which would be (if am incorrect forgive me) that would the Moral Compass of a Host make a difference to the Xenomorph's Purpose and How it would Act?

or as i also discussed are we only talking about the Basic Psychological Traits than every Human is Born with, which would be about Survival, Feeding, and Procreation but then i dont think this Constitute a Sin..

"I have said before if you have ideas of your own which you feel are exciting and have legs then write your own story"

Unlike yourself, i have not really attempted this in Depth, because i find it HARD to come up with a SOLUTION or Idea that i am Happy to Stick to, that i feel would not have any Contradictions.... its a Difficult Task which No Doubt, Paglen and Green had Found and HENCE with Alien Covenant Plot/Narrative its made something more Basic and Simple... in Comparison to HOW they could have explored things.

That is NOT a attack against what you have done, its merely a Admiration to the Effort and Having a Defined Plan and Sticking to it that you have.

I look at the Plot and try and come up with some Theories but then its Hard to Pin-Point a Single Thread to Follow, and then as we Got the U-Turn that was Alien Covenant, it seemed my Ideas would be MOOT so i abandoned them.

I had attempted a Idea of where to go NEXT after Alien Covenant and looking at my Interpretation but i Never Invested in presenting it, because i am just NOT sure that people would be Interested.... i think that also applies to the Route that Ridley Scott is taking anyway.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Nov-13-2019 10:18 AM

Excuse me if I interfere in the midst of the duel, but I was wondering if we’re talking on different levels here?

A work (novel/film) can have a metaphorical, symbolic level in which themes and motifs come into play. These suggest things rather than explicitly spell it out. This is a big part of poetry.

So for example in religion and myths, mankind can be punished for the sins it’s done (the Sins of the Fathers or Prometheus’s “sins”). So if a human (Kane) interferes with creation and exposes itself to an ovoid (which is meant for other things), a xenomorph is the result (which is punishment)?

On the other hand, we can look at it more literally. Then we have to (try to) apply a scientific approach of cause and effect. We can talk about heredity and biology or AI. Can a xenomorph inherit psychological traits? Well, of course it can’t because xenomorphs don’t exist. :) Anyway, it would be feasible that psychological traits connected to a species would suit the xenomorph because it would make it perfect for the environment in which it is born.

Could it inherit specific traits from an individual (Kane)? Could it inherit memories from an individual (Ripley)? If we look at it from a survival point of view (the xenomorph is a survivor), if it inherited psychological traits from its host it would probably adapt better to the environment (since the host is probably well adapted to the environment). Memories would also be advantageous since the “newborn” might “know” how to escape (air ducts e.g.).

BigDave

Nov-13-2019 3:55 PM

Thanks for that Chli it helps me to Understand the Context you are intending ;)

"Anyway, it would be feasible that psychological traits connected to a species would suit the xenomorph because it would make it perfect for the environment in which it is born"

This and the Rest of your Reply (after) is one of the Things i was bringing up ;)  it Totally is Plausible.

The other thing i had mentioned was also Indeed if these were not Intended for Humanity but we just happened to Wonder Across them....   This is more like a Curiosity Killed the Cat.

So in Context i think its OK to discus these in relation to WHY and by WHO the Ovoids were Created by...  because depending on WHO and WHY would maybe Help us to Wonder what kind of Traits it Carries Across and IF these are Intended....

I think maybe i had taken the Context to Generally Discus those Options, and so if the Topic was Purely about in Light of the Work by Michelle and WHAT kind of Origin and Purpose she gave for the Ovoids... then i Totally Understand my Comments would have taken that Context out of the BOX the Idea was intended for... and so in this case its just a Crossing of Wires ;)

I think surely we can Ponder about Punishment but also as a Clean Up Tool is Valid too, but thats only in General, so i really have to read Michelle's take on the Reason for the Ovoids before i really comment more on this Subject if it was intended for that Alternative Explanation ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Nov-13-2019 9:46 PM

@chli

At the risk of embarrassing you can I say that your post was one of the best I have seen on the forum. 

You are entirely correct and inspired by the movie as "away of doing things" thats precisely how I wrote the duology. 

It is dealing with all the themes symbolically, it is an unfolding narrative which has to keep our interest through our connection with the characters, which should make a journey through the themes and it has to have a degree of logic (even within science fiction) so that it does not become distracting and so those strategic themes are not missed.

My frustration is the vast majority of deep fans focus entirely on the latter. When the forum was much more active pre Covenant there were some incredible conversations which covered all three levels of communication. 

I try and understand why the modern audience does not apply suspension and think thematically and emotionally and I believe it is in part because they live their lives as a recording through social media and play games with the content so all there is for them is the nuts and bolts. To put it as simply as possible they don't investigate character and situation they get in the characters seat strip away the suspension and say OK I have all the facts now this is what I would do. 

That's the generality and why you get the responses to a fascinating question you get. it's also the case that people do not think enough before contributing so answers either miss the nuance of the question or rehearse their unresolved thoughts in public.  

Talking and reflecting on particular personalities contributions is a balance between candour and avoiding acrimony but in the end, as with anything in life the question is are people capable of taking note of what is said and making things rub along better. If one's judgement that people do not learn and go round in circles then best to say nothing.

Thank you again for your post I took a lot of pleasure from it.

As you have read the book I will now deal with one of the nuts and bolts points.

When I wrote my rule book I had to make sense of:-

1) A Mutagenic Payload destined for Earth.

2) A cargo of Ovoids with an unknown destination.    

The former was easy I simply needed to decide precisely what was in the Ampule to lead to 6,000,000,000 Holloways.

In the latter case given, we had the Urns which would lead to widespread Mutagenic Change of biblical proportions I decided the target of the ovoids could be elevated and though personal have as much significance for the Moon creatures ambitions as their deadly fleet of Juggernauts. In terms of 1979, it was played as a hubristic attempt to gain access to the technology of something long dead and unrelated to mankind. That Kane's son was unintended consequence simply underwrote that idea.

Summary

Kane was not meant to be there and so neither was the outcome. 

Michelle Johnston

Nov-14-2019 5:45 AM

chli

I am going to try and keep this very tight and disciplined.

Proposition

At the point that David and Elizabeth ignite the Juggernaut and set off for the Homeworld, the reader is aware of two creatures in the Scott World of A L I E N. The one in the end story (Kane's son) and the one in my story which is heavily influenced by RS/VC.

All we know about the creature is its behaviour in A L I E N theatrical cut and extended backwards into Pandora's Urn. Its sole motivation is to humiliate and murder its victims. It is possible that it can recognise the difference between male and female and would rape a female.

That is all we know. Most importantly this notion that has developed over the years that it is a weapon is unproven and it certainly isn't a bioweapon if one understands what a bioweapon is.

What we do know is about the cargos of Urns and the material they carry. It is Mutagenic and whether the film (Hammerpedes, Fifield) or book (Holloway) leads or would lead to a stronger variant of the original which displays higher levels of aggression than its target the kind of ultimate expression of the survival of the fittest which makes sense thematically given the Moon Creatures are using stolen technology in an unauthorised way.

Put simply given what we know from Prometheus of the Urns means we know very little of the creature. My proposition is:-

1) It is an unintended consequence and therefore bearing in mind its base sequence includes a punishment tagging programme turns on the host species and punishes them.

2) As the Ovoid creature was designed to reprogramme a very valuable target honouring most of the qualities of the target it is entirely possible that this invented creature will include within its overall punishment subroutine the host's behaviour and instincts where punishment is concerned and in storytelling terms, I remind the reader that mankind are experts in matters related to punishment, control humiliation and the like. On the question of a good host, the host in my story is a good host but you take what he does well and pervert it which is the implication of the exchange between the creature and the hapless target.  

As to whether it would have technical memory it would be a good film and book moment to imply it but no more. Inexplicable moments in a narrative add richness and on repeated viewings or readings we can have fun speculating.       

Summary

We all know in order to generate a franchise the creature has featured in six further films and people have played around with its capacity for procreation and its purpose but this is about looking at it from that moment on New Years Day 2094 when Elizabeth and David left in the film and in my vision on the 30th December 2093 where the only additional intel we have is through foreknowledge of the derelict incident.

 

  

hox

Nov-14-2019 10:35 AM

@Michelle,

My frustration is the vast majority of deep fans focus entirely on the latter [it has to have a degree of logic]

You're not doing the fans justice. Plenty of times we have wondered about the symbolism of the movies, from Kane's son (as blatantly stated in the original) through to establishing a connection between the Head Room artwork and Renaissance depictions of Prometheus having his liver pecked out by an eagle. Even when the film makers serve things up on a platter, like recurrent cruciform themes, we've pondered the extent of deeper meanings and connections.

There's room to think about this sort of stuff, as well as the more obvious things like plot and scene consistency.

BigDave

Nov-14-2019 2:39 PM

@Michelle

Thanks for the Summary at least i know what Context to Frame any replies now, i Interpret what you are referring to as far as your Idea/Story is to take ALIEN and Prometheus as far as Theatrically and to Expand on it, to give it more Depth but to Mainly tackle it from the Revelations of Prometheus as far as the DVD Release and How those working on Prometheus felt at that Time.   And so its based on HOW that Version of the Movie (with DVD Commentary) and how it connects to ALIEN at that Time

And so thats to Ignore Alien Covenant, and to not include what may have been said about ALIEN or how it connects to Prometheus prior to that.  FORGIVE ME if this is a Incorrect Interpretation.

And so to Continue..... then indeed if you watch ALIEN and Especially the Theatrical then really there is NOTHING that proves the Xenomorph was a Intended Bio-Weapon, especially a Weapon intended for Mankind.... YES the Organism could be used for Biological Warfare (which the WY company may have wanted it for) but there was no PROOF that this was how it had Originated from.

And so also from the Theatrical Cut of ALIEN then if this is the ONLY one that you had seen, then the Picture Painted by the Actions of the Xenomorph was to just KILL the Crew, it did not seem to want to KILL everything (Jonesy was left alone) and you did get some idea that it was in part Tormenting the Crew, and as FAR as what happened with Lambert in that Scene, then you could Speculate as to WHY it had attacked her in that Manner instead of just Standing Up and Punching a Hole through her Head... so a Intention to De-File her was Certainly the Agenda of that Scene.

So if we discount the Egg Morph Scene then it came across that the Xenomorph was just going around Killing the Crew, which is a Punishment for going into that Cargo Hold that Mankind was NOT meant to have came across... Its a Curiosity Kills the Cat Moment.

Again i have YET to read your Idea/Story so some Details are Missing in your Post,  but from what you have put, i would assume your intention is to SHOW that  those Eggs were for Another Purpose for another Specific Host that maybe has some Benefit to that Species, but the Ovoids are Programed with a Instinct if you would that SHOULD any other Organism become the Unintended Host then the Xenomorph would resort to a Coded Instinct of Survive and Kill..... were as a Ovoid that Infects the Intended Target would have a Different Outcome...   May i Assume at this Point something that would Elevate said Host to a New Stage of Evolution/Creation but would KEEP the Hosts Memories?     Again Forgive me if this is WIDE off the Mark... it sounds Interesting to say the Least and keeping a bit of Starbeast to the Plot.

A Unintended Consequence is always Interesting to Ponder, and is that in your Story the Consequence of a Unintended Host who Stumbles  upon the Ovoids, or that their Creation is from a Unintended Consequence

We know RS had referred to the Xenomorph as a Bio-Weapon or that they would be used as such, with Prometheus its indicated the Black Goo could be used as Biological Warfare but we get NO Answers to the Xenomorph.....   and so we could at that time Speculate was the Xenomorph a Unintended Consequence of the Black Goo?   Ridley Scott had explained the Space Jockey Fate and a Interesting thing he had said was that Something had Evolved in the CARGO HOLD.... this would seem to IMPLY the Cargo Hold of the Derelict was NOT intended to have Ovoids but they came as a Consequence of the Pathogen.   When looking at Alien Covenant we see the Bombardment had Killed the Engineers, it Turned them into Desiccated Mummies..... but we could then Speculate maybe the Neomorph Spores had came as a Unintended Consequence 

So the above Paragraph i am referring to how the Intended Use of the Pathogen had lead to a maybe Unintended Ovoids just as with the Neomorph Spores..... I would like to say the Paragraph was not me trying to Suggest thats what your Origin and Unintended Consequence is about as i have NOT read your work and from what you have put on this Topic, i can only work out that your Idea was that the Ovoids had been either Created or Originated to Perform a Different Specific Task to the Benefit of a Specific Species and any Unfortunate or Meddling Species who either come Across those Ovoids or intend to USE them for their own Needs will become Punished by the Horror that comes from them..... in a Hostile Creation that would Carry Out Horrors against those who were NOT intended for the Ovoids, this is not a Gift to those who it is Not Intended... but would become a Pandora's Box if you would.

Once Again... if i am Totally Off, then Forgive Me and be Gentle ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Nov-14-2019 8:20 PM

@hox

I am not going to try and deny your perception of what does or does not go on across deep fan sites on the internet I simply know that I speed-read most threads and the overwhelming preoccupation of Alien fans is about the nuts and bolts functioning of the creatures and fans judge spin-off games and books by some "cool" additional insight into the goo or the neomorph at a functional level. I am not interested in studying evil I am interested in why there is evil and not for any personal religious reason.

Wayne Hagg summed up the move from Prometheus to Covenant its dispensed with all the bullshit and the straight line is David dragging it forward. That was the official view of the response to what had been read on the internet from deep fans. My duology reverses right back through Wayne's thinking.     

If there is agreement is this site is much more likely to find love for Prometheus than any other.

Another consequence of this monster love is the filmmakers will do something for pace, building a hierarchy of threat and fans will go into overthinking mode as if what results has some deeper mechanical meaning. The best example is the neomorph. It's there to give some tension and make the reveal of the real deal in the third act have context nothing more nothing less, it's a minor monster. Fans then begin backgrounding it at a creation level. It actually isn't logical in fan terms given the planet suffered a pathogen attack nor is it logical in terms of David and the Xenomorph however it's a neat entertaining build of threat. It's also what you get when you stopping making films with symbolic value. The Hammerpedes tell a very powerful mutagenic story and tell us what was going on and a great deal about the Mutagen and how it works and offer a comment on promiscuousness. The number of people that critique that exchange and miss the point are legion. 

 

 

 

Michelle Johnston

Nov-14-2019 9:04 PM

@BigDave

Your broad thrust of how I interpret the events of A L I E N is correct and so is your final paragraph.

it's slightly ironic given that I am in Ridley's camp that the beast is cooked and he was proved right by Covenant but I actually elevate the Ovoids significance, the destination of the craft and make an effort to wind the creature into several key themes.    

1) Why are all the Moon creatures outcomes violent and aggressive and then why is mankind aggressive and destructive and is there anything relative to that?

2) Why is hosting at the root of their culture? 

3) What are the origins of punishment?  

Nuts and Bolts

I have taken the Ovoid creation from what we see in Prometheus and artwork from the first film and in any event, everything leads back to the Mutagen of P so the morphing was not necessary. Personally I think the morphing idea reduces the creature given how it works in nature. It has horror value but equally, it is now troped elsewhere.  

BigDave

Nov-15-2019 1:38 AM

Well i look forwards to reading HOW you handle those things regarding the Connection...   Ridley Scott is very correct with how the Beast is Cooked.... and with the Prequels is Priority instead was about WHO and WHY as far as the the Beast...... because if this was Designed and is Nasty and Horrific then whats more Nasty and Horrific is the reason behind it.... he had also said that you can explore the Beast but you have to come up with something Different, Evolve it, Expand its Purpose and other ways of Procreation than what we have seen in the Franchise..  The Black Goo was always Interesting as it Opened up a Massive Avenue of Potential.

The above does-not really connect to your idea, it was just me agreeing with RS, as i think we can always WONDER what and HOW would he had expanded on the Xenomorph had back in the 1980's he had worked on the Sequel and used his Ideas, and also WHAT IF those in the Company had allowed him more Freedom with his Ideas.... and so with Alien Covenant it seemed again this may-not have been quite what he would have Intended....  by that what i am saying is the Xenomorph became more of a Space Bug after ALIENS and from this point many could rather Speculate the Eggs were simply the Remnants of this Space Bug that the Space Jockey had attempted to obtain... and so we had a kind of Insect (Termite/Ant) meets Humanoid look at the Beast......

When looking at ALIEN alone it appeared that the Beast would NOT have been so Limited and so its Interesting to see others come up and add more Purpose and Meat to those Nuts and Bolts ;)

Regarding the Neomorph i saw it as another way to show what the Black Goo could do, much like the Hammerpede was, but i agree the Neomorph was mainly just a Set-Up for the Main Creature which was the Xenomorph, and i feel the Hammerpede likewise was to the Trilobite/Deacon from Prometheus... (The Money Shots).

Sorry if this is Off-Topic... but the Neomorph appeared to also be Intent on Killing the Humans but appeared to NOT attempt to Attack David...  maybe that Fits with the Pre-programed Punishment towards Humans... or it could just be that they detect that David is not Flesh and Blood.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

hox

Nov-15-2019 4:07 AM

@Michelle,

"I am not interested in studying evil I am interested in why there is evil"

That's fine. Many other people are interested in both. Many would argue the point that unless you study evil you cannot possibly understand why there is evil.

"Another consequence of this monster love is the filmmakers will do something for pace"

Yes, of course. All successful action movies these days employ strict ratios of tension-time to fright-time. It's a well disciplined business based on a lot of audience participation research.

"The neomorph ... is a minor monster"

I disagree strongly. They are featured in several scenes, much more so than the Hammperpedes that you appear to enjoy.

"It [the neomprph] actually isn't logical in fan terms given the planet suffered a pathogen attack"

That's not correct. The pathogen mutated the planet's flora to produce infectious pods. The spores from the pods infect humans. The humans birth neomorphs. Nothing illogical about that.

"nor is it logical in terms of David and the Xenomorph"

It? The neomorph? The movie? Your language is imprecise and the argument is undeveloped, so I can't really comment on this.

"[the neomorph is] there to give some tension and make the reveal of the real deal in the third act have context nothing more nothing less... It's also what you get when you stopping making films with symbolic value"

Tension in a movie has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the movie has more than a literal meaning, i.e. has some symbolism. Perhaps you would care to rephrase your argument more logically...

"Hammerpedes tell a very powerful mutagenic story"

As does the weaponised goo and its complex development.

"and tell us what was going on and a great deal about the Mutagen and how it works and offer a comment on promiscuousness."

They don't really tell us very much at all, other than the fact that a worm can be mutated into a hostile reptilian form that has the ability to spew acid and regenerate. They are not promiscuous and have nothing whatsoever to say about promiscuity.

Michelle, I enjoy your posts, but I would enjoy them much more if you slowed down your writing and added more clarity to your arguments.

Michelle Johnston

Nov-16-2019 9:35 AM

@hox

Bull shit I nearly didn't read my post but did and its perfectly clear and you chose to appear stupid (pathogen/mutagen are not the same and Milburn on promiscuity but you  know all that surely).

Your the first one in five years that have suggested I am not clear in what I am communicating just when I am giving BD a hard time over the same issue who is a nice guy that knows deep down he extemporises beyond the point of being helpful. Pull the other one and no more, please and no I do not want the last word.

 

chli

Nov-17-2019 2:21 AM

There's the rub . . .

In science, we need clarity and exact definitions. In poetry, we don't. The power of poetry is that words open up worlds. They become magic.

In order to become a complete human being, perhaps we need a balance between the left and right hemispheres? Perhaps the druids at Stonehenge were more intuned with the universe? :)

I think Ridley Scott is more of a visionary who sees things in pictures and focuses on atmosphere (Legend), although he sold his soul to the devil (xenomorph) in AC :)

Words and concepts can have a literal and figurative meaning. As far as I know, Kane didn't have a son. But when Ash says: "Kane's son" (meaning Cain's son) it becomes eerie.

hox

Nov-17-2019 4:20 AM

@Michelle, oh dear, more rambling from you I’m afraid. Since you don’t appear to be able to respond in a coherent manner to arguments presented to you, other than resort to verbal abuse, we should perhaps discontinue this conversation.

You are right, however, in saying that BD is a nice guy. He’s far too polite with you in my opinion. He is courteous and generous whereas you come over as opinionated and aggressive, unfortunately. BD will always respond to any question put to him. You will not.

ignorantGuy

Nov-17-2019 5:51 AM

hox Why are you so high and mighty? Your arguments are not airtight. 

First off all, Millburn was trying to show off to the cool Fifield (inhaling MJ in the helmet) to land a screw when he tries to touch the Hammerpede, which then penetrates (rape) him instead. The monster is not a reptile by any means imaginable. It does not have a skeleton, a head, or even a skeleton. It regenerates because worms regenerate, and has acid as some body fluid to tie it to the Dragon.

The whole pathogen-mutagen is iffy. In Prometheus, nobody dies because of direct contact (which would indicate it is a mutagen, with a long period to finish its work, Fifield being in a pool of it for who knows how much) yet in AC it is insta-death to FAUNA (which a patogen). David himself says as much in AC. The pods themselves look more like fungi (we can say this because that took their time to say that), which are not part of FLORA. And why do even claim that they were mutated? Maybe the are plain old mushrooms which absorbed the goop that water brought.

The neomorph is just a waste of time. It's design was a Prometheus reject and the way it reproduce it's just a rehash of Gibson's idea for his Alien 3 script. The only thing new with it is it's agility. But that a growing creature (with its skull not fully formed) of 3-4 pounds could break a spaceship-grade with with headbutts is ridiculous.

Again things in a movie need not be perfect in regards to logic, but that does mean that if it make sense for you in your head they are airtight. And if you start insulting people why are you surprised that they don't respond with compliments?

 

Michelle Johnston

Nov-17-2019 6:02 AM

@chli

Another good post. 

What I find profoundly fascinating is how we all receive the same information slightly differently, which is as you would expect, and then randomly make the same connection. 

Here is a small but gratifying example.

There is a seven-year-old thread which deals with "Kane's son" and one contributor makes the point when they are discussing Ash's reaction that the creature is only doing what it is supposed to do. In other words that complete stranger is implying the creature's behaviour is a day at the office which is my view. 

The thread also deals with the issue of how come an objective unemotional robot is taking a determinedly emotional view of the creature and more to the point knows something about it. The suggestion is in March 2012 that David may begin to deal with this question. 

You can imagine me shouting bingo at these entirely random and disconnected (from me) statements.

The creatures job description is simple to destroy any members of the host species for intervening.

David led on the makeshift theatre table has a conversation with Elizabeth which takes us down the road which will finally answer the issue of how an objective robot can behave when not subject to the defined narrative of its creator.

So your remark about "Kane's son" or is that "and some" can oddly lead us to the more general Bladerunner narrative of mankind's sub-creation not staying on message. 

The poetic context of this argument is that for David Elizabeth represents Paradise (freedom to consent) and Sir Peter Paradise Lost (coercion).

In my story, Kane is the first one to intervene which is interesting given my speculation as to the occupant of the chair and why he was the sole character on board.

"I speculated he refracted and echoed the bible story of  Cain where the Lord did not respect Cain’s sacrifices but his brother Abel, who went on to become the first acolyte. Cain may represent the beginning of the Fall."     

As to another question which came up in the thread in 2012 how come Ash knows so much. As David says to Elizabeth in Chapter 5 Muther is essentially a proxy for Sir Peter so any message you send to earth is to "him". It may be in Indo European but muther can translate and what she doesn't know and never will that she is being deceived and being diverted from the real prize. So Muther and the hyperdynes are being fed a line.

In closing just as you need to understand what evil is in order to understand why it exists the greatest challenge is to explain for one side of the brain enough so one does not become agitated through lack of understanding but balance that with the poetic element so that we become excited and moved.

 

 

 

chli

Nov-17-2019 6:50 AM

What interests me is why you are so bitter, Michelle? Don’t patronize. Be kind and generous. Share your knowledge (in a humble way). That’s what saved David in your story . . .

Michelle Johnston

Nov-17-2019 7:03 AM

@ignorantGuy

Many thanks for your contribution.

To show that you reflect my view and what was behind my original post. Spelling it out as it were. 

1) The Hammerpedes from worms tells us a great deal about what the Mutagen of Prometheus adds to its target. We will in short order see it repeated in Fifield. Compare the behaviour of the Hammerpede, Fifield and Elizabeth's child which immediately wants to destroy its mother. There isn't a cigarette paper between them. Milburn is gay propositions Fifield and his promiscuity is rewarded by oral rape. You get what you ask for is all over P.    

2) The material in the Urns of Covenant is a pathogen to kill off the entire population of the city. Pathogens lead to disease and death.

3) Leaving aside the logic that the spores would emerge from such pathogenic beginnings their intervention in Act 1 leads to a creature which had been revived after being rejected for P1 and had been slated for various iterations of P2 post-Lindelof. So the creature was slated for Act 1 years before the story used was conceived. It's quite entertaining but in the context of "the mad as a box of frogs, David makes the Xenomorph" perplexing. In storytelling terms, the pathogen creates the neomorph randomly and after years of painstaking research and god knows what David comes up with the creature where is the symmetry, couldn't David do so much better than the random neo? Even more bizarre David and Neo are cool with each other and then we were to have a projected fight between said monsters. How on earth has this any of the grand sweeping monster logic of A and P movies? It hasn't it's monster beats threaded together getting in each others way. As stupid as the final part of Act 1 is all the hysteria from the pilot and your point, it completely undermines the tired 3rd act mashing up Sigourney with poor Katherine.              

To my original point, that's what you get when you make a movie with no underlying thematic or philosophical value. It's a camel designed by a committee that thought fans wanted the monster back. I loved it when Michael said well we at least managed to keep the creation story in with David making the monster. The emphasis in that statement is definitely 'at least.'   

Michelle Johnston

Nov-17-2019 7:29 AM

@chli

Perception is everything. if you think I am bitter I am bitter.  

I hope you will be happy to know you could not be further from the truth. My irritation with contributions to this thread goes something like this.

I was very excited by your getting my work.

I was delighted that you wanted to highlight a particular proposition that my work offered. 

I was completely underwhelmed by the responses you got. 

When I responded calling out the poor quality of responses one of the underwhelming posters started seeing me as the problem and subsequently began artificially deconstructing one of my posts.

I saw straight through that.

Have a great evening I completed the big five hike on the Drakensburg here in Kwa Zulu Natal yesterday a dream of 2 years in the making. I am climbing into the Tugela Gorge tomorrow and I adore my location.

As always with these things, you should see these posts before I tone it down. ha ha.

All the very best

Michelle 

 

 

chli

Nov-17-2019 7:55 AM

No, perception isn’t everything. Postmodernists are wrong. The statement “There is no truth” can’t be true, can it? There is a reality out there. But can we reach it (Kant)?

You also bring your mental state and memories with you wherever you go, don't you (Well, tick off your bucket list)? Actually, you ought to be ashamed. Also, I don't give you permission to use my quotes.

Add A Reply

Sign in to add a reply to this topic!

Alien Day 2019
New Alien: Covenant Forum Topics
Latest Alien Fandom Activity

Alien: Covenant is a sequel to 2012's Prometheus as well as a prequel to 1979's ALIEN. Alien fans looking to know more about Alien: Covenant should check back often. Alien-Covenant.com is an information resource for film enthusiasts looking to learn more about the upcoming blockbuster Alien: Covenant. Providing the latest official and accurate information on Alien: Covenant, this website contains links to every set video, viral video, commercial, trailer, poster, movie still and screenshot available. This site is an extension of the Alien & Predator Fandom on Scified - a central hub for fans of Alien and Prometheus looking to stay up-to-date on the latest news. Images used are property of their respective owners. Alien: Covenant, Prometheus and its associated names, logos and images are property of 20th Century Fox and are in no way owned by Scified and its related entities. This is a fan-created website for the purpose of informing and exciting fans for Alien: Covenant's release. If you have any questions about this site, its content or the Scified Network in general, feel free to contact Scified directly.

Scified is an entertainment media network covering the latest news on the most popular, upcoming science fiction movies, games and television. All content is property of Scified.com unless otherwise stated. Images and names of content we promote, discuss, review or report are property of their respective owners. Scified is independantly owned and operated by a team of dedicated sci-fi movie fans, who strive to provide the best information and community experience for other like-minded sci-fi movie enthusiasts.

© 2019 Scified.com