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Kane's Son

Kane's Son

2 Upvotes13 RepliesUpvoteAdd A Reply
Forum Topic

chli

Nov-09-2019 3:56 AM

In the Book of Genesis, Cain murders his brother Abel and for that God expels him to “East of Eden”. In Christianity, there was a belief that you inherit the Sins of the Father (Original Sin stemming from the Fall of Man). Cain had a son called Enoch.

We have had many a good discussion about the Alien (the xenomorph) and whether it takes on traits from its host. As far as I can tell, the discussions have been centred around physical traits. In Alien 3, the creature imitates some of the characteristics of a dog and runs around on four legs.

Recently I had some discussions with Michelle about her work (which I recommend you to read). She had the thesis that the xenomorph could inherit inner qualities (evil, hate, aggression etc) from its host. It’s an interesting idea.

Thomas Kane was the Executive Officer aboard the USCSS Nostromo. He was the one who got “raped” by the facehugger and eventually “gave birth” to the alien creature - Kane’s Son.

According to Xenopeadia, Kane was intelligent but later on in his medical educational career, he developed “medication addiction” and was expelled from the university. Later on, he graduated as an engineer and became a pilot.

In his working career as a pilot, his medical addiction came back and he was fired. Later, he developed alcoholism. After getting the job as Executive Officer on the Nostromo, he volunteered to be a part of the group investigating the mysterious signal on LV-426 . . .

In the Alien novelization, Kane “was less controlled in thought and action than was Dallas”. Could his psychological traits, his "sins", have been inherited by his “son”?

Can inner, psychological, qualities of the host affect what the alien creature (the xenomorph) becomes? What are your thoughts?

13 Responses to Kane's Son

BigDave

Nov-09-2019 8:04 AM

I have yet to Read Michelle's work i really must do so.

In Context to your Topic, then this is KIND-OF what Dan O'Bannon  had as a idea of the Starbeast, that they can LIVE ON in a New Host and so have some kind of Genetic Memory which is NOT so FAR FETCHED as Ripley 8 had this and so maybe it is something the Xenomorph Possesses.

In Context to the OT... then i think its Plausible that some Psychological Traits are Passed on as well as Genetic, but i think the Beast/Survival and Procreation Instincts take over Mostly (by that a Face Hugged Mother Teresa may-not be a Loving Friendly Xenomorph LOL)

I dont mean to take this a BIT off TOPIC but i guess this is a Expansion of what your Suggesting...   so IF the Xenomorph can somehow Retain and Pass One Genetic Memory then if you could Figure Out HOW this happens, then it could be a KEY to Unlocking a Kind of After-Life/Immortality. 

Ripley was in EFFECT Dead.... Resurrected by her Xenomorph Infected DNA she managed to Regain some of her Memories.... if she Eventually Regained Most of her Memories then in EFFECT the Xenomorph had Granted Ripley a Reincarnation into a another LIFE.

IF this is a attribute of the Xenomorph or a Organism that Predated it, then in Context to the Engineers and Sacrifice what we could have NOW would be a attempt to use the Xenomorph, Black Goo or Organism that it all Originated From as a means to TRY and Unlock a Route to Reincarnation..... thus Immortality.

I think as far as a PLOT then this would have MERGED the World of Prometheus and Alien and indeed been somewhat Lovecraftian....   I always FELT that to use the Xenomorph purely as a Bio-Weapon has too many Pit-Falls and surely there are better ways of Defense..

But if this Beast as other Uses for Genetically trying to Gain some Traits from it, or IF indeed it could provide the KEY to passing on Genetic Memory then the Pursuit of the Beast makes much more Sense.

Great Topic for Discussion as Always ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

Nov-09-2019 2:30 PM

Some traits can skip generations. Others may or may not be triggered due to several factors like environment or upbringing or being generally predisposed. The xenomorph seemed intelligent and all about survival- with some malice from the get go. Not sure how much of those traits came from the host or were inherent to the creature.

hox

Nov-09-2019 2:45 PM

It doesn't really make much sense to think that an Alien could acquire psychological traits like alcoholism. Although a movie featuring an Alien that likes a drink would be a bit of a laugh.

I can well believe that an Alien could acquire the instincts* and physical capabilities of its host, since they are encoded in genetics. If that makes the Alien a better killing machine, that can only make it a more "perfect organism", as described by Ash.

*apart from certain instincts such as nurturing, compassion etc. The Alien would have no need for those traits.

dk

Nov-09-2019 2:52 PM

hox Yes, xenos are plenty mean enough sober.

chli

Nov-10-2019 1:03 AM

Well, alcoholism isn’t a psychological trait but rather a behaviour in response to an underlying psychological trait. Anyway, a loving xenomorph would be something, wouldn’t it? :) But in this concept art for Alien 5, they seem to have domesticated some xenomorphs:

Michelle Johnston

Nov-10-2019 9:35 AM

When Ridley decided to return to the franchise he said no one had dealt with the question of the guy in the chair.

I decided with the information of Prometheus to recalibrate the question no one had asked the question as to the target of the derelict and its cargo?  Once I had an answer to that question it became clear that Kane’s intervention and his subsequent child was an unintended consequence and were a diluted degraded outcome lacking the purity and full potential of the Engineers work. I thought this was an original idea but it turns out that was precisely the vision of Steve Messing one of the design artists of Prometheus.

There were two other elements I decided came into play which explained its behaviour. The Mutagen is a combination of the Fire of Life and a contrived element, which in combination catalyses organic outcomes by biomimetic fabrication and subjects them to an inbuilt base sequence of control by tagging.

However, all life mutates to its circumstances and conditions and Kane’s intervention and the earlier one in my story represent unauthorised interference. So part of the creature's behaviour is about retribution on the host species for interference. That explains its unbridled hostility and remorseless determination to destroy any member of the host species. It is the ultimate example of a punishment tag.

However, there is another element which Chli has very kindly raised up for conversation. Given the actual target of the Ovoid’s would result in an outcome, which is as much about the host as the ovoids, would not mankind’s behavioural tics bleed into the creature.

Mankind is adversarial, driven by fear particularly fear of death (Weyland), over-sexualised (Milburn, Charlie, Vickers in my story) is one of the few species that kills its own kind. Many examples are dysfunctional, unable to cope without drugs (Fifield) or drink (Kane and in a sense Charlie). Mankind was created in the image of their Gods but doesn’t hold on to the beauty and symmetry of David or Venus.          

So it’s contribution to Kane’s child is to be over-sexualised, unable to communicate effectively and metaphorically entirely correct has acid for blood. It's also profoundly dysfunctional, and misshapen, echoing Frankenstein’s creation with its bizarre unlovely rear skeletal structure.

The most elegant element is the head shape shared by the apex of their achievement the Deacon Upgrade, and the head shape turns out in my story to be an echo of a Home World creature with a special destiny, but on the creature it’s a metaphor for male sexuality.

I also felt that each time a Face Hugger/Creature appeared you needed to say something new and unique about it and go into the territory that Chli is raising.

In the first instance, the exchange is between a creature born of a decent host and a female. The exchange between them is built around Ridley Scott and Veronica Cartwright’s observations about what was going on between the creature and the woman.

The first thing the creature does is to pass its tail between her legs and holds her up by it. The implications are obvious he then goes on to spit a secretion on her visor, which could be interpreted as a form of pre-ejaculation. Obviously the female has no idea what this means but she is coming apart at the seems (heart rate through the roof, bowl loosening etc) and in any event, she would consider the creatures next move as rape. But equally, a crewmember is looking on who rapes and murders his victims so a comment about connected behaviour (Chli's point) which bleeds into Elizabeth’s story in Act 3.

On the second occasion a face-hugger alone appears and in a confrontation with David shows its capacity to adapt and use its host's knowledge. David taken by surprise handles it and finds himself outwitted as it attempts to sever his head from his body with the tail of the hugger.  This kicks the narrative forward but enables David to feel rage. 

Finally, there is an incident where a host realises it has the capacity to control what is incubating inside it. This is part of a journey for a host and the mutagen and to show the many-faceted options for both.  Almost the crossroads where Ripley had arrived at but going on further.

chli

I got your point about Kane's drinking it's not about the drinking it's the psychological background to all substance abuse.  

 

BigDave

Nov-12-2019 4:55 PM

I think on ONE hand its Interesting to Consider Genetic Memory.... but then we also have to look at what ASH had said, he said the Xenomorph is not Clouded by Remorse or Consciousness and so maybe we have to Assume he could be Correct and IF-SO then if the Host had say any Hate/Prejudice against a Certain Sex then i dont think that would IMPACT the Actions of the Xenomorph, for example if the Host was a Homosexual Male would that make the Xenomorph only Target Males, or attack them Differently to a Female?

I would say NOT if the Xenomorph has no Conscious?

But then surely it could have some Genetic Memory like how Some Organisms have a Instinct/Knowledge that comes from Genetic Memory and so DONT have to Learn about Certain Survival Instincts/Skills or Fears.  They are Passed On Genetically.

Its interesting to WONDER if the Xenomorph does Acquire some Knowledge from its HOST, but to NOT be effected by any Psychological/Emotional Elements of the Host... so for Example the Xenomorph of Kane could have knowledge from him about the Nostromo Ship and the Escape Shuttle, which could explain WHY it could Evade the Crew and also be aware of the Escape Ship and to go and wait there for Ripley.

The Same Applies to ALIENS as far as the Xenomorphs having some Idea of the Lay Out of the Colony Buildings and HOW to Turn off the Power etc....  if they gained such Knowledge from their Hosts Memories.

With Ripley 8 we get True Recollection of Past Memory, but maybe that ONLY applies to HER via the Process of Mixed DNA.

I think something to Consider as far as PUNISHMENT is that we have seen the Xenomorph referred to as a Demon, the Devil if you would...

So as far as a BIBLICAL Punishment.... its Interesting to Wonder about the Eggs being used on a World where the Actions/Aggression and Destruction of a World and its Inhabitants could come down to the HOST Species.... EVILS/SINS...

But i get the Impression they are a Invasive Species who rely on Procreation and the means to this is WHAT becomes a Threat to the Targets...

It would be like SOLVING a Termite Problem with Genetically Engineered Larger Ants that would then WIPE-OUT and Destroy the Termites...

Then your left with the Same Problem but with Genetic Engineered Ants... UNLESS there was a Kill Switch... so that either those Ants would DIE out after a Period of Time and NOT be able to Procreate Past this Point... or you have a Virus or something to Eradicate those Ants.

So you would expect similar to be Applied if the Xenomorph was a Engineered Bio-Weapon (Eradication Tool).

Sorry that went OFF-TOPIC.. but to swing it back, then as a Weapon/Eradication Tool then having Genetic Memory would NOT be a Good Idea to allow such a Weapon.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Nov-12-2019 8:33 PM

BigDave

I have read this several times and I don't understand what you are trying to say. 

"but to swing it back, then as a Weapon/Eradication Tool then having Genetic Memorywould NOT be a Good Idea to allow such a Weapon."  Are you saying the concept is bad because your statement misunderstands the idea?

So I will restate my idea.

My idea which this thread is built on is not about genetic memory it's about more general behaviour and instinct of the creature when mankind is the host.

It's a storytelling point that mankind and the creature are not so very different.

All Ash is describing is what he sees, "a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality." He has no idea why that is.

My idea is it is a consequence of an A.I's punishment tag. The activation of the face-hugger by an inappropriate target will kick in the punishment protocol.     

However, the Ovoids have been created for a purpose to apply Engineered designed characteristics to a specific very valuable target which amounts to intellectual property theft. So the hugger is programmed to take the traits of the host.

In this case its mankind so the creature is driven by its programme and any hybridised qualities it picks up. Mankind is fearful, aggressive over-sexualised and kills its own. As the writer of the chapter involving the creature I was making the point that its victim did not stand a chance and in a literary sense try and replay what we get in A L I E N with Ash saying you haven't a hope in hell. You have a punishment protocol driving it, general traits of mankind you don't stand a chance.      

It's that simple and to clarify the creature is not a bioweapon it is an unintended consequence which has an inbuilt programme to destroy any members of the interfering host species and it is as Steve Messing indicated a polluted degraded outcome and in my story specifically because mankind is the host.

You could also take the creature's behaviour as playing out Damon's paranoid world view that all children want their parents dead.

 

BigDave

Nov-13-2019 5:55 AM

"I have read this several times and I don't understand what you are trying to say"

This is purely in Context to the Topic by Chli and in Context to about IF the Xenomorph has the ability to take on Psychological/Emotional Traits of the Host and how this would be Ideal or Not for a Engineered Weapon.

What i was talking about was in CONTEXT to the Xenomorph being a Biological Weapon that is Engineered, then that IF that is the Case then allowing for this Intended Parasitic Weapon to have some kind of Genetic Memory and especially in Terms of being able to Carry Over and become Influenced by the Hosts Psychological/Emotional Traits would NOT be a ideal Component you would want for a Biological Weapon.

So i t was not anything to do with your idea.

But i will have a look at your Idea in Context to the OT now,

Ok so forgive but i have YET to read your work, and i really must look into it as it seems a Interesting Twist to the Story ;)

I had said in my Post about maybe some traits could be passed on from the Hosts Knowledge, but i Understand you are referring more to Instinct and i feel in that Context then Mankinds Instincts are to a degree Very Much like a Animals our Primal Instinct is  to Survive, to Feed, to Procreate and then Protect our Off-Spring and as such these Priorities are something that Mankind would go to Extreme Lengths to Carry Out, which would be to KILL if its Needed to Accomplish this.... at this Base Level we are No-More than other Primates...

But then Mankind has other Traits such as Empathy, Reason and Love and Compassion and these are more Influenced by Experience and Environment, i would assume you are referring to more Primal Instincts than these, and so these are NOT picked up on by the Xenomorph Organism,  which also applies i Guess to some Negative Traits like Greed for Power and Pleasure in the Suffering of others...  so i think also a Xenomorph would not pick up on these.

If we look at our Primal Traits then the Xenomorph does appear to be Similar, it Strives to Survive, to Feed, to Grow and to Procreate and for this it Requires to KILL in order to achieve this.  It seems once we have a HIVE then they Serve as a Part of the Greater Whole of a HIVE, rather than Individual Survival it becomes about their Species.

Regarding your Idea that you have taken some indication from Steve Messing, then i have to really Read your Whole Idea and look into Steve Messings Comments..

The Franchise is the work of Many Cooks, its is something that Evolves from Movie to Movie, Concept Artist to Concept Artist would have Certain Ideas about Certain Aspects and the Same applies to Writers, and Ultimately the Directors.

So this Next Part is not really in context to your idea, and so i think we have a Evolving Idea, prior to the Prequels we have RS say the Ovoids are a Bio-Logical Warfare, we are not indicated they are Engineered or Discovered, the Prequels began to show us they was Engineered, which Evolved into the Black Goo in Prometheus which again seemed to indicate a use as a Biological Weapon to Eradicate a World a Cleansing Tool of Sorts.

There is always some element of Ambiguity and Changes and differences of Opinion within those working on the Project.  For example "sometimes to create one must first Destroy"  this could be that the Intention was to Replace Mankind with what Changes would come from the Black Goo, or it also could be that In Order to Start Again and WIPE the Slate Clean then you have to Destroy what  is there First...  But this is the Conclusion of David and so that may not be 100% as Accurate to the Engineers Intentions

I apologize to Chli for this response being a bit OFF-TOPIC

To get it back to Context to the OT then it is a Case of looking more DEEPER into the Reason behind the Ovoids (maybe more than Goo) and so its about exploring and expanding to WHY they was Created and by WHO and depending on WHO and WHY would then be Relevant to how the OT would be applied.

So if we are going with David as the Creator then its a case of WOULD some kind of Passing on of the Instincts/Traits of the Host be something Intended/Designed by him, or just something that the Organism just is Capable of and is in NO way a Engineered Component to WHY they would do this (Carry on Instincts/Traits of a Host)...  but if the Organism is a Parasitic Survivor then carrying on Traits and Instincts is IDEAL to Survive in the Environment the Organism would Find itself.

In Context to your IDEA.. i cant really comment as i have YET to read on it, especially in Context to the Ovoids, the Origins and Purpose of them..

If i look at Starbeast and the Intention of a Host, and then this OT....  then you could assume that the Starbeast Ovoids needed a Host and so a Animal is Used and the Starbeast may have some Genetic Memory that is passed from Ovoid to the Chest Buster that Incubates inside a Host.

The Starbeast would have some Genetic Memory as far as Instincts passed on but would be Quite Feral, until it was Nurtured by its Own Kind and Learns...

And so in this Context and i am not sure if your Idea touches on similar, then a Human may not have been a Intended or Ideal Host.... and so when a Human in Context to the Starbeast Idea becomes a Host then as a Human has more Psychological/Emotional Traits a Soul if you would instead of that of a Animal, then the Ovoid would as a Unintended Consequence pick up on the Traits that a Human has as far as Survival and Instinct that a Animal does-not and THESE are then what Produces a Starbeast that would BEHAVE in a Different way than as Intended (using a Animal).

Thats not me suggesting your Idea is the same, as i have to Read your Idea, or its not suggesting this is what was intended by Ridely Scott as far as the Ovoids in the Prequels.   it was just a way to look at maybe how the Ovoids were maybe not Intended to be Interfered with or in Contact with a Human.... but such Contact has a Undesired Consequence for the Humans, but maybe also as far as the intended Purpose of the Ovoid.  But this really is only Relevant depending on the Purpose of those Ovoids and depending on WHO it is that Created them or HOW they came to be, then depending on that.. would change the Context.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Nov-13-2019 7:19 AM

@BigDave

Chli made it perfectly clear that the context of his question was my work, your throwing the kitchen sink at it obscures the point entirely. 

Can I suggest in order to be as polite as possible that if you ever read my work please PM me and stick to specific reactions to it as a thing in itself and not comparatively to existing works or your own ideas? I know the existing works I have set out the relationship in a glossary and as I have said before if you have ideas of your own which you feel are exciting and have legs then write your own story.  

BigDave

Nov-13-2019 9:06 AM

Well Forgive me i had not Interpreted that Chli's Topic is SOLELY based off your Idea/Work, i interpreted that he was exploring a Idea that after Discussions with you that he had felt you raised some Interesting Things in Relation to this Topic

I would not say I am THROWING any Kitchen Sink at all, and i am sorry if you Interpret my Comments as such, i dont intend for it to come across like.

Maybe i should REFRAIN from Topics until i have read your work in FULL but then i would be Concerned that any Comment could be taken Very Wrong, even in its to the Point of Agreeing for the Most Part.

My reply was to in General discus the Potential of there being some way the Xenomorph would gain some Memory, Knowledge or Instincts from a Host, and to look at ways it could apply, it was NEVER to discount anyone else's view or discussion on the OT at all.

So when the Topic talked about HOW we are shown the Xenomorph takes on Physical Traits such as the Dog Alien walking on all Fours, then we can assume a Shark Alien would have a lot of the Biology of a Shark, because taking these Traits suits the Environment.

I assumed the next Phase was about Psychological Traits and could they be Carried over and i was mentioning that Indeed some Traits like Basic Instincts could be Carried Over to Help with the Survival of the Species in a Particular Environment.   But i also thought about things such as Carry Over some Memories that would gain the Xenomorph Knowledge of say its Environment the Host came from the Layout of the Environment it will Inherit etc.

I apologize to Chli if that is Off-Topic..  I often will explore beyond the BOX of a Subject, and i am sorry if this may seem as Derailing Certain Threads!

So i took the Closing Comment...

"Can inner, psychological, qualities of the host affect what the alien creature (the xenomorph) becomes? What are your thoughts?"

And in part i looked at how ASH and his comments and what we see in the Franchise, and that it seems in Context to the Franchise that the Xenomorph seemed to Run more on Instinct and Survival, and by that if Mary Poppins and Hitler got Face Hugged then both Xenomorphs would NOT really act much different, they would go by their Basic Instinct to Survive and Procreate...    A Xenomorph this Born from a Good Soul would not be making Conscious Decisions like "i should be become Vegan to Protect the Environment/Carbon Foot Print"

And so thats only Part of what i was passing my Thoughts about, and its not intended on taking a Knock on the OT.

I had commented on IF it was a Engineered Weapon then if it could take on Traits of a Host as far as the Psychological Traits or HOW GOOD a Persons Soul is and this Impacts the Application of a Engineered Weapon, then i felt this would maybe not be a Ideal Planned/Engineered Trait...  that does-not Rule-Out such a thing being a Unintended Consequence However.

And so again i am Guilty of taking it out of the BOX, such as to bring in Ripley 8 and her Memory and i should KEEP it to the Specifics which would be (if am incorrect forgive me) that would the Moral Compass of a Host make a difference to the Xenomorph's Purpose and How it would Act?

or as i also discussed are we only talking about the Basic Psychological Traits than every Human is Born with, which would be about Survival, Feeding, and Procreation but then i dont think this Constitute a Sin..

"I have said before if you have ideas of your own which you feel are exciting and have legs then write your own story"

Unlike yourself, i have not really attempted this in Depth, because i find it HARD to come up with a SOLUTION or Idea that i am Happy to Stick to, that i feel would not have any Contradictions.... its a Difficult Task which No Doubt, Paglen and Green had Found and HENCE with Alien Covenant Plot/Narrative its made something more Basic and Simple... in Comparison to HOW they could have explored things.

That is NOT a attack against what you have done, its merely a Admiration to the Effort and Having a Defined Plan and Sticking to it that you have.

I look at the Plot and try and come up with some Theories but then its Hard to Pin-Point a Single Thread to Follow, and then as we Got the U-Turn that was Alien Covenant, it seemed my Ideas would be MOOT so i abandoned them.

I had attempted a Idea of where to go NEXT after Alien Covenant and looking at my Interpretation but i Never Invested in presenting it, because i am just NOT sure that people would be Interested.... i think that also applies to the Route that Ridley Scott is taking anyway.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Nov-13-2019 10:18 AM

Excuse me if I interfere in the midst of the duel, but I was wondering if we’re talking on different levels here?

A work (novel/film) can have a metaphorical, symbolic level in which themes and motifs come into play. These suggest things rather than explicitly spell it out. This is a big part of poetry.

So for example in religion and myths, mankind can be punished for the sins it’s done (the Sins of the Fathers or Prometheus’s “sins”). So if a human (Kane) interferes with creation and exposes itself to an ovoid (which is meant for other things), a xenomorph is the result (which is punishment)?

On the other hand, we can look at it more literally. Then we have to (try to) apply a scientific approach of cause and effect. We can talk about heredity and biology or AI. Can a xenomorph inherit psychological traits? Well, of course it can’t because xenomorphs don’t exist. :) Anyway, it would be feasible that psychological traits connected to a species would suit the xenomorph because it would make it perfect for the environment in which it is born.

Could it inherit specific traits from an individual (Kane)? Could it inherit memories from an individual (Ripley)? If we look at it from a survival point of view (the xenomorph is a survivor), if it inherited psychological traits from its host it would probably adapt better to the environment (since the host is probably well adapted to the environment). Memories would also be advantageous since the “newborn” might “know” how to escape (air ducts e.g.).

BigDave

Nov-13-2019 3:55 PM

Thanks for that Chli it helps me to Understand the Context you are intending ;)

"Anyway, it would be feasible that psychological traits connected to a species would suit the xenomorph because it would make it perfect for the environment in which it is born"

This and the Rest of your Reply (after) is one of the Things i was bringing up ;)  it Totally is Plausible.

The other thing i had mentioned was also Indeed if these were not Intended for Humanity but we just happened to Wonder Across them....   This is more like a Curiosity Killed the Cat.

So in Context i think its OK to discus these in relation to WHY and by WHO the Ovoids were Created by...  because depending on WHO and WHY would maybe Help us to Wonder what kind of Traits it Carries Across and IF these are Intended....

I think maybe i had taken the Context to Generally Discus those Options, and so if the Topic was Purely about in Light of the Work by Michelle and WHAT kind of Origin and Purpose she gave for the Ovoids... then i Totally Understand my Comments would have taken that Context out of the BOX the Idea was intended for... and so in this case its just a Crossing of Wires ;)

I think surely we can Ponder about Punishment but also as a Clean Up Tool is Valid too, but thats only in General, so i really have to read Michelle's take on the Reason for the Ovoids before i really comment more on this Subject if it was intended for that Alternative Explanation ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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