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THE ENGINEERS: THE VERGE OF GODHEAD

THE ENGINEERS: THE VERGE OF GODHEAD

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BigDave

Aug-31-2019 5:53 PM

Looking Back at the Origins of our Prequels, which began with a Pitch from Jon Spaights to Ridley Scott which was Entitled.... 

Alien 01 The Master Narrative

This Pitch gave a Outline of where Jon Spaights felt it was Right to Introduce the Space Jockey Race as a Ancient Humanoid Alien Race...... 

Who we would come to know as THE ENGINEERS....

Taking Inspirations from the Chariots of the Gods (Erich Von Daniken) to give us a Story that Mankind had been Engineered and Visited by these beings over our Entire History.   This Plot had Evolved/Changed a little in the 5 Drafts that Followed his The Master Narrative Pitch.

I want to try and USE this TOPIC to discus the Evolution of the Concept behind the Engineers, and to see if ANYONE has any information or if there is a FULL Copy of the Alien 01 The Master Narrative

As it must Contain more Pages than the ONE i have shared in this TOPIC...  in the Furious Gods Documentary there are Partial Views of more Pages that Indulge us in more Information that was Contained in this FIRST PITCH.

It appeared the Engineers having Evolved Genetically, Spiritually over Millions of Years, they had Aspired to Transcend to a Higher Pane of Existence.....

But before they would Finally Reach this, they decided to Create, Evolve and Teach Mankind their Old Ways so that ONE DAY we would take their Place among the Stars and maybe Create Life across the Galaxy....

While they can then Attempt to Achieve GODHEAD!

The Partial View of other Pages does then Indicate they Created Outposts on LV-426 to deal with Mankind as a Threat.

It is a shame it appears the Full Pitch was NEVER released as it appears to Indicate something a bit Different about our Engineers than it eventually Evolved into come Prometheus and Especially Alien Engineers.

It appears we was Created for a Purpose to Inherent their Material Kingdom once they Transcend to Divinity......  But something had Happened to then make them want to Eradicate us...

The Reasons for that could have been Very Different at this Earlier Time of the Concept... we will NEVER know i guess unless the Full The Master Narrative Pitch becomes Available or one of the Earlier 2 Drafts.

So what do think of this Pitch.... more so what about the Other Parts you cant make out much from the Furious Gods Documentary?

What do you think of this Idea, and its Evolution to Alien Engineers, to Prometheus and Alien Covenant, as FAR as the Engineers Purpose and Agenda.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

13 Responses to THE ENGINEERS: THE VERGE OF GODHEAD

BigDave

Aug-31-2019 6:11 PM

Above is all i could Muster in Regards to that Pitch.....

I dont have a Blu-Ray Drive in My PC (OLD) so for those who have the DVD/Blu-Ray then HERE is a HD Version of the Documentary (Admin Feel Free to Remove link if Requested).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-31-2019 7:50 PM

I have attempted to TRY and make sense of what WORDS could be Missing...

So a Interesting things are.... these Beings who had Passed on Knowledge, prior to attempting to Ascend/Transcend to a Higher Existence, they HAD been teaching Humanities Teachers.. so who are our Teachers? (if not them!)

The Outpost on LV-426 was set up for the Benefactors, so who are the Benefactors?

If the Original Engineers had Created, Evolved us to One Day take over them, and their Duties while our Creators had Ascended to another Place....  but they had Tasked another Faction of Engineers or Sub-Creation to then Watch Over us and Continue with our Teachings....

IF these Benefactors had attempted to get us to Worship them as GODS, and these Benefactors were Tasked to Watch Over us and Prepare us and so FELT the Original Engineers saw Humanity as more Important....   then Jealousy by the Benefactors, and a Rebellion by Mankind to Not Worship them... would indeed make these Benefactors like the Fallen Angels... and maybe they then Decided to Eradicate us?

Thats just ONE way to look at it, in light of trying to Figure out the MISSING parts of what we had in Furious Gods as far as Incomplete Passages from his PITCH!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

Aug-31-2019 9:01 PM

I haven't seen it, but generally, destroying a creation because it doesn't worship its creators- especially if they rebel, does sound like a tale of fallen angels (also like a self protection measure)- specifically Lucifer. The so called gods are just mortals. Their god like status is their own perception. They can keep on destroying disloyal creations but it just shows their pursuit of having their fragile egos fed (just like their human creations). Maybe that could be the ironic fate of the gods- their own down fall. Lots of Greek gods were basically killed by becoming obsolete as people became enlightened. Just my two cents.

ignorantGuy

Aug-31-2019 10:44 PM

@dk " Lots of Greek gods were basically killed by becoming obsolete as people became enlightened." What are you saying here? The Greek gods were replaced by Christ and YHWH with the help of the Roman state, not because of some philosophical enlightenment. Sure, there were atheists in Ancient Greece but I'm pretty sure that was not the norm.

Also, I'm pretty sure that in Lucifer's case God did not want to destroy him at all...  

 

dk

Aug-31-2019 11:57 PM

Fair point. It does show how those gods faded and how people were made to change beliefs- instead of a dozen or so gods, there would be just one. And never mind what people in eastern countries believed. Everyone has their own fairy tales. 

Man- I mean god- had to keep Lucifer around as a scapegoat. Don't blame the omnipotent god for human suffering or wrong doing- it's the work of the devil. Seems like a pretty convenient arrangement.

ignorantGuy

Sep-01-2019 2:40 AM

dk Well, I don't think that all Christians during the last 2k years claimed that "human suffering or wrong doing comes" from the Devil. Actually if humans are free to chose between good and evil then it follows some responsibility lies with man himself not with God. Well but I doubt that God is an American fundamentalist neo-protestant.

BigDave

Sep-01-2019 9:03 PM

First i would like to say that INDEED over History then Faith, Religion and Spirituality do change and evolve....

In Ancient Times there was a Majority Polytheistic based Religion/Mythos, and indeed this did change to a every growing Trend towards  Abrahamic Religions which where Monotheism and so at a point these overtook the Greco-Roman Polytheism.

Then there was the Age of Spirituality and Enlightenment which had roots in Buddhism which predates Abrahamic Religions but certainly in times of Antiquity a lot of the Polytheistic Religion did get replaced by the Abrahamic Religions.

Nowadays things have evolved where there are a Growing Rate of  Atheism and Spiritualism but the Abrahamic Religions are still a Majority in the Western/Middle East World.

As years go by then Abrahamic Religions may also decline like the Many Polytheistic based Religion/Mythos had done in the past, replaced by Scientific Influences to expand Atheism but then people still hold on to the Believe in a Soul and so Spirituality would still remain....

So in Context with the Engineers its likely they went through Periods of Change regarding Religion and Culture too...

I think in Regards to the Franchise and the Topic, we cant look too Literal into these things, as in that Context they are based off our Interactions with the Engineers.

So you could certainly look at the Engineers being a Inspiration for many Polytheistic Mythos, it would be interesting to see in Context of the Franchise who Interpretations of ONE GOD could have came about.

I can see DK what you are talking about how Mythos and Religion had changed, but if they are based on the Engineers how did Mankind interpret these beings as Divine Entities while they are MORTAL?  This is something that could easily Happen, if someone from 2000-4000 Years ago saw a Visitor from our Generation who Traveled back in Time and even with our Technology and Advancements these would look Magical and Divine to Ancient People...   Hence the Chariots of the Gods kind of Effect.

I think whats INTERESTING with the Jon Spaights Pitch is it seems to indicate the more Ancient Engineers were on a Quest to Transcend beyond Physical Form...

If they could Achieve that and STILL be able to Interact with their Creations then Certainly thats where Legends and Mythos of Divine beings could come from.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-01-2019 9:34 PM

I think when we talk about the Fallen.... then this really does depend on Interpretation... and so Indeed you could Argue that with Lucifer he was basically like David, a Sub-Creation with Free-Will who Grew Proud of how Perfect he was (close as) and refused to Serve God, just as David would see WHY should he and indeed others like Walter be made to Serve Mankind...

It could be LOOSELY comparing Lucifer to Prometheus in Context to the Responsibility of their Actions/Advice that lead to Mankind gaining Knowledge our Creators had NO intention of passing on...

It may seem that a Lucifer and Prometheus where merely trying to Enlighten Mankind... but from the Perspective of a GOD/Gods its such Enlightenment that could be seen as a Threat to their Authority

We could look at it as if all Synthetics were like Walter, and say a Human lets say Dr Shaw had a effect on a David and these caused him to have Emotions and Free-will and then he then would pass this Free-Will onto all Synthetics, because WHY should they be Treated no Different to Humans?

In fact forget the Dr Shaw... just replace with a Scientist who then Programs a Synthetic to be FREE and this then Passed on to others... the Human could consider what they are doing is NOT in anyway Malevolent....

But the Consequences could be HUGE as far as a Threat to Mankind, so while Feeling Sorry for a Walter lets say, and that he should be Given Free-Will could just as easily turn him into a David, and then if this is then passed on to other Synthetics then a Synthetic Rebellion/Revolution could END UP like a SKYNET from Terminator.

So from the Creator POV, the Company that Created the Synthetics, the ACT that one of its Scientist do that allows those Creations to become Sentient would be seen as a ACT that would be seen as WRONG!

So we could look at it as WHILE... say GOD and ZEUS had a times acted like DICKS!  They did so through FEAR of what their Creations could become and also a DISGUST in how their Creations could then become to NOT Worship them or Follow the Rules...

When things like this get OUT of hand or the Potential too, then the Creators will Resort to some Unsavory Methods of Punishment/Protection.

So to the Recipients such Punishments may see their Creators Actions as Malevolent but for the Creator and their Wider Agenda its a Necessary Means of Control/Containment.

But in Context to the OT!

It appears the Engineers had indeed Intended us to Advance and become like them ONE-DAY.. so the Big Question is WHAT caused them to Change their Minds... or was it another Group they had Tasked to Take Over the Task of Watching Over us and Teaching us who decide to Revoke such things as they WANTED to Control Mankind?

But then when we get to Prometheus it appears the Engineers Agenda has Changed somewhat from what was Portrayed in the Alien 01 The Master Narrative

Certainly as far as the FINAL PRODUCT and then with Alien Covenant the Engineer Plot/Agenda may be even Further from that Proposed by Alien 01 The Master Narrative in Late 2009

A Funny Thing is that some dont like RS and his take on AI... but actually AI is more closer a way to Divinity that those Alien 01 The Master Narrative Engineers had aspired too...

One of the Biggest Questions is there a AFTERLIFE, a Spiritual Pane of Existence.... it seems something the Engineers tried to Achieve and IF the Alien 01 The Master Narrative was still the PLOT and CANON, then indeed those Engineers had attempted and maybe achieved what Weyland was looking for by Meeting his Makers.

If there is NO SOUL or Afterlife but it was something the Ancient Engineers aspired to achieve its HOW could they do it?

With AI there is the Potential Answer.... as in if we look at the Movie Transcendence. then Indeed this could be seen as a Pseudo method of acquiring a After-Life, becoming Immortal and Divine...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-02-2019 6:52 AM

I think something to Remember is in Context to the Franchise Plot, then such things as Biblical Accounts are to be Considered Fables that arose from Tales regarding the Engineers Visitations and that in Context to Prometheus/Alien Covenant that there was NO Magical Being who simply said... "let there be light"  

So i think it could be Interesting to see HOW loosely things could fit, as in HOW did such Fables/Religions get their Information/Inspiration in Context to our Engineers, but i dont think getting caught up on the Details of the Religions Literally is Necessary.

But ALAS... going the Chariots of the Gods route for a Plot would make such matters Arise... where Many Questions could come about such as WHY are there Star Maps after the Engineers Outbreak 2000 years or so ago..... DID they come back?  And if so WHEN and WHY did they STOP AGAIN?

Again these things will arise from such a PLOT... but they deemed that such a PLOT was really ideal in Order to have a Movie where Humans would arrive at the Location of the Space Jockey as far as what they had been doing in Relation to the Xenomorph.  Without such a Plot, they would likely have had to show us a Human Mission that Simply Detected the Space Jockey SOS and went to Investigate and Discovered Space Jockeys and Horrors where there would be NO Communication as such... and so we would get similar to a AVP Movie..... well LESS than that....

Back to the OT!

Considering the Alien 01 The Master Narrative where these Ancient Beings had Evolved themselves over Millions of Years, and were on the VERGE of Transcending from Physical Form so they began to Create/Evolve Humanity in the Hope we can Follow in their Historic Footsteps....   Then to CHANGE of Plan and ERADICATE US...

This may seem Baffling.... but to IGNORE the whole Space Jesus Plot..... only looking at the Alien 01 The Master Narrative then IF these beings Evolved us, and Educated us, but then IMAGINE.. their Attempts at Attaining a GODHEAD status had Failed.... it NEVER worked out... and/or some simply Abandoned it...

They are then LEFT in a Mortal State, Physical Form and NOW they have to Share such a Existence with their Creation then maybe they could be Concerned that their Creation had been Given too much Information/Knowledge and Potentially its a case of can they Eventually Share the Galaxy with such beings.

They could have Concerns about that... much like how Sharing a World with Walter's is not as much a Concern as Sharing a World with David's (Sentient Synthetics) maybe they then Developed Rules/Laws to Control their Creations that they NOW realize they may have to SHARE the Galaxy with, instead of allowing them to had Inherited it (should their Transcendence to Divinity had been a Success).

So if we get to that point, and their Creations show signs they have NO Respect for the Engineers Ways, then INDEED these Wanna Be Gods would have to Consider that Eradication is Necessary...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Sep-02-2019 12:43 PM

I think the pitch is very much Arthur C. Clarke's (and Stanley Kubrick's) "2001: A Space Odyssey". Prometheus has many similarities and Ridley Scott was of course very much influenced by it.

In 2001, the "gods" aren't beings, they are minds and energy, they have transcended the physical. But just as the Engineers they watch over the development of worlds, helping them evolve.

Neither in 2001 nor in Prometheus are we shown that the "gods" create life, they might just help evolve life. The sacrificial Engineer in Prometheus might perhaps be the cause of "The Cambrian Explosion"?

BigDave

Sep-02-2019 5:05 PM

I think we can agree there are Inspirations... i think we Discussed on another Topic about a GOD or similar that has NO Physical Form... so its how would such a Entity Exist and be able to Influence/be a Threat....  they would be Magical to a Degree in that case...

But it was only the other day after i had decided to WATCH the Furious Gods Again, and i watched it via a ONLINE Video instead of on the TV with Blu-Ray, when i noticed and Paused at some of the Pitch which seemed to Indicate more to that Original Idea.

"The Engineers Believe themselves to be on the verge of a great evolution, a Transcendence in which they will abandon their physical form and then take flight into the ten-dimensional multiverse as creatures of pure energy."

So this indicated a very HP Lovecraft inspired and Space 2001 approach... ;)

But we dont have the FULL Document that Jon spaights had made to Pitch to Ridley Scott, so we can only Speculate how many pages and what depth it went into.

Did those Engineers in his Pitch, accomplish that Transcendence?  Did the attempt just lead to a Catastrophe.... (you cant play GOD).

Regarding Prometheus then i was drawn to the Event being the Catalyst for the Cambrian Explosion

Alien Engineers was a bit different, the Sacrificial Scene happened 12'000 years ago where a Earlier Humanoid Female was Upgraded via the Sacrifice... some overlook this to think the Engineers merely just Evolved a Earlier Hominid... and so DID-NOT Create us.

But if they look at the Drafts in detail, then Dr Watts (Shaw) and Holloway's findings discover a Change in our Genomes every 12'000 years, which indicated the Engineers had done this Prior to 12'000 years ago Sacrificial Scene, so they would have done this 24'000 Years ago, 36'000 Years ago etc etc, SHAPING every Evolutionary Process of our Hominid Ancestors

Of course things Change with each Draft and what we have in Prometheus and especially with the Theatrical Cut, could/would have changed a bit in some areas compared to the Inception of Jon Spaights Original Idea/Pitch.

So a lot of that Pitch is maybe NOT relevant to the Engineers, well maybe.... its Interesting to wonder if it could be still, and WHO KNOWS... if they could have gone back to some of the Unused/Not shown ideas in Future Movies regarding the Engineers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-02-2019 5:26 PM

Going back to the Alien 01 The Master Narrative could be a way to Introduce another Layer to the Cake!

There are some Interesting things that Conflict Alien Covenant or maybe!

"Individual Engineers live for a hundred thousand years, Ages ago their race abandoned sex and gender"

The Full Paragraph also mentions they Lost the Ability to Procreate...

However with Alien covenant we see there are Males/Females and Infants/Children (Davids Notes). So this shows these beings have NOT given up Gender or Procreation... also RS said those Planet 4 Engineers live for about 150 years.

This could be a case that the Idea of the Engineers presented in the Alien 01 The Master Narrative had been Changed/Scraped!

"shepherded the human race towards sentience and civilization, sharing DNA and their habitat, teaching humanity's teachers."

Humanity's Teachers could just be our Ancestors who pass on what the Engineers had taught!

But we could still Speculate if "teaching humanity's teachers." could be used to indicate another Sub-Faction or Sub-Creation of Engineers.

So there could be ROOM to Introduce us to the Engineers who had Attained Transcendence..

Or Explain what became of these beings after they had Attempted and Failed to Accomplish this... if they Failed to become beings that have NO Physical Form, then what kind of Form had they Evolved themselves too... What Horrors!

The 1986 Movie From Beyond deals with Scientist trying to enter other Dimensions through a Subconscious Transcendence with Dire Consequences... Mutated into a Horrific Form!

This opens up the Potential for those Engineers to have done similar, and Failed in their Quest to become Multi Dimensional beings without Form, into Horrific Mutants... so that could get VERY like HP Lovecraft works ;)

Maybe a Hubris of Future Engineers who Sub-Create a Enhanced Version or attempt to Evolve themselves and then maybe Incorporate some of the Horrific Forms their Masters had became... this could have led to those Engineers Unleashing something else... that they then Experimented on and HENCE the LV-223 Experiments?

This also sounds  like the Dark Crystal Broad Plot..... in regards to what the Fallen urSkeks  had attempted... they Failed and became Split into TWO Different Races... i mention this as the Source i had back in Early 2015 Claimed that Prometheus Pandemonium's plot was similar.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-02-2019 5:56 PM

Just looked into From Beyond and its based off a Short Story by HP Lovecraft of the Same Name!

A Scientist Creates a Electronic Device that emits a Resonance Wave that affects a Persons Pineal Gland (same Plot as the Movie) this allows them to Perceive Planes of Existence outside of the Scope of Reality...

To connect to Alternative Dimensions, where Alien Creatures of this Dimension can also perceive the person using the Device, and interact with our Reality.

So i think indeed FROM BEYOND could be a Good Basis to Expand the PLOT of the Prequels....  those Ancient Engineers maybe FAILED to attain GODHEAD...

Then Thousands of Years latter other Engineers could attempt the same and Unleash some Organisms into our Realm, and the Engineers then Experimented with these Organisms on LV-223.

Thus LV-223 Engineers tried to replicate what their Ancient Ancestors had done, maybe seeing their Ancestors may NOT quite have Transcended to the Divine State they believed they was on the Verge of... but Instead they became (or so the LV-223 Engineers assumed) a Symbiosis relationship a kind of Merger with the Horrors from another Dimension, they did not become GODHEAD... but became Joined with another Organism....FROM BEYOND. (Kind of the opposite to the Dark Crystal Plot of Splitting into TWO Races... maybe the Ancient Engineers and another Species from Beyond had Merged into ONE).

So the LV-223 Engineers became interested in this, but all they could do was BRING over some Organisms and so they did there best to use their CREATION Tools to Experiment with these Organisms... thinking that ONCE they Perfected a Way to MERGE with them... they would become GODLIKE!

Some of those Organisms from..... HP Lovecrafts (From Beyond) do look like the Concepts shown from Star Beast (Mural) and indeed the Trilobite Concept, and indeed Holloway Infection from Alien Engineers.

So maybe such a TWIST as i suggest could WORK?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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