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Star Children (Evolutionary Step of Mankind).

Star Children (Evolutionary Step of Mankind).

1 Upvotes59 RepliesUpvoteAdd A Reply
Forum Topic

BigDave

Mar-07-2019 8:38 AM

I would like to use this Topic to discus the Artificial Evolution Aspect that in part i think perhaps we could have seen with Alien Covenants sequel in regards to WHAT it is that David would CREATE.  I had ponder if this would be what the Sequel would cover in my Topic Alien: Exodus

But i am using this Topic to assume in part, what kind of Artificial Creation that David could create, taking into account that the Franchise has Focused on Creation, and Pursuit of Perfection.

The END of Alien Covenant we do see David going off to TUCK in the Children, as he said he was going to do after Daniels Discovers WHO he really is..  We can assume this was the Face Huggers but we see that David distributes these among the Human Embryos.   As speculated with the other Topic Alien: Exodus i was drawn to the Plot for Alien Covenants sequel could revolve around David attempting to Evolve/Engineer those Human Embryos into a New Race.

The Engineering aspect is something that the Prequels are quite based off, our Engineers indeed are also Genetic Engineers and Manipulators, and if we look at Peter Weyland and the kinds of Feats his Company had been working on, and indeed what Various Genetic Engineering Companies could be working on in such a FUTURE.

Then Genetically Altering the Human Genome is something i feel its a matter of time before we see Massive Advancements, i do suspect in the REAL WORLD this would likely be to Genetically Remove Genetic Defects and Flaws from Embryos to Eliminate Potential Disabilities and Dieseases that would IMPACT the Life-Style and Longevity of Human Genes that would otherwise be drastically impacted by various Genetic Disorders.

Would we EVER see such Genetic Engineering take a more Pursuit of Perfection Avenue?  Currently i think the Moral Compass is something that would prevent that,  and so preventing some Genetic Disorders/Disabilities is ONE THING... but to attempt to create the Perfect Designer Babies is ANOTHER....

But none the less, when Genetic Engineering Evolves to the point of being able to Enhance our Genomes, you have to wonder IF some Governments/Factions would be tempted or even consider the Benefits of doing such a thing... Especially for Military Purposes, because Creating the Perfect Super Solider would hold some Great Benefits.

Its interesting to Ponder Quite HOW-FAR in future we could Engineer Perfect Traits in the Human Genome, where we could Create Children with the Athleticism of our Best Athletes in Terms of Strength, Power, Speed, Agility and then combine that with High IQ Levels of Intelligence that our World Best have..  In addition to being able to Eradicate Genetic Flaws, and potentially also have Immunity to many Ailments a Human could suffer.

Such Engineering is NOT beyond the realms of possibility NOW.

But then we can enter the Sci-Fi world of taking this Further by IF we could enhance Genomes/Traits that would give us Genetics and Abilities of other Organisms on Earth.

Such as Improving our Senses.... Particularity Eye-Sight, Hearing and Smell.   Also the potential to Engineer Pain Receptors so that we can in effect TURN OFF Pain.

Another Aspect would be the Engineering of our Bodies Cells that Age, could we eventually Engineer a way to reduce the Age Process of the Human Body?   And slow down the rate our Organs degrade/age?

 

Various Sci-Fi movies have covered such Engineering, which we have seen in Blade Runner with the Replicants, and also movies like Morgan and in these we are shown that Artificially Engineered Organic Beings also are Grown Faster, they Mature from Embryo to Adult in Vastly Quicker Times, something a number of Cloning Movies cover... which include ALIEN: Resurrection with the Ripley 8 Clones.

Within Context to the Franchise, we could ponder HOW-FAR could David take such Engineering with the Engineers Secrets?   what kind of STAR-CHILD could he create from Engineering those Embryos?

Looking at our Engineers too, as its indicate those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, its possible that Ridley Scott was showing us that the Prometheus Engineers are what happens when our Planet 4 Engineers have Genetically tried to Perfect themselves in the past, or created a Genetically Perfect version of themselves.

What Evolution had lead to Mankind, considering Engineers intervention and what kind of Evolution could David Achieve with those Embryos?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

59 Responses to Star Children (Evolutionary Step of Mankind).

BigDave

Mar-25-2019 5:51 PM

@ignorantGuy

Indeed there is a lot of ambiguity at play, what i was referring to was in context of what the Prometheus was indicating, which was that the LV-223 Outposts had been a place of Experiments, and by Deacon i meant the MURAL Organism i should have been more clear sorry.

Indeed the Dr Shaws Deacon was via a set of events, and it showed that for some reason a Female Reproductive System had created what was the closest to the Xenomorph in the move...   The amount of theories you could come up with HOW/WHY this was the case, could lead to many a speculation... such as is this WHY we was created because the need for Female Hosts?

The Engineers held the Mural in high regard, some kind of Worship...  and at the time of Prometheus it was indicated (well prior) that the Engineers were a Race who had Genetically Engineered themselves Sterile!  If this was the case, i speculated how would they view a Organism that could allow them to Give Birth to Life!  Maybe this is one reason they Worshiped it?

But things change as they go along.... Alien Engineers painted a much more clearer picture... which was the Engineers had encountered a Organism, they may-not have created and using their Nano-Scarabs they began to Create Versions of it for Biological Warfare which resulting in Creating 8 Different Variants.

In Prometheus we had the 5 Mounds so maybe Each had a different Variant of Organism?  We can only speculate.

Then indeed things became a Mess with Alien Covenant, prior to Alien Covenant the Xenomorph was connected to the Black Goo and Experiments on LV-223, Ridley Scott confirmed this, but it was just too ambiguous...  and because we had NOT enough clear Clues, or Monsters similar to the Xenomorph... some Fans were Not Happy and In-Part that lead to the U-Turn with Alien Covenant.

By Perfection i was not calling the Neomorph Perfection, but it is via the Neomorph and Black Goo that David had pursued to create the Perfect Organism which took many attempted and Cross Hybridization...   I think it is likely the Engineers had attempted to do so on LV-223

The Wolf and Sheep is something interesting, and again its ambiguous, people may Automatically Assume this Comment means the Engineers had created the Xenomorph prior!

The Wolf could mean Black Goo, Enhanced LV-223 Engineers, or even Humans.   The Black Goo Origins is a Mystery, Wayne Haagg seems to think the Engineers Tools/Technology is something they had NOT created.

Ridley Scott claimed the Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, and when talking about AI he went on about how the Replicants are AI.... so that could mean the LV-223 Engineers are like Replicants of the Engineer Society its open to speculation, but it could indicate those Engineers had Engineered themselves to Perfect themselves... and Turned their Backs on this.

The definition of Lamb and Wolf can have various meanings, at its basic level, we may see that Lambs are their to be Killed by Wolves which is why Shepard's are needed.  But it may not have to be that simple either.

Lambs are usually seen as a symbol of Purity and Innocence, the Wolf seen as Treachery and Corruption a Lamb is also held in high regards for Sacrifice... Jesus is symbolic with a Lamb because he represents Purity, and he had Sacrificed himself for Mankind.  Where as the Wolf is symbolic of False Lies and Deceit 

But in context to Alien Covenant, we maybe cant read to much into any Biblical Symbolism.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Ingeniero

Mar-27-2019 7:53 AM

"'So, to me, the black goo pathogen is where fragmented technology evolved into synthesized single product.'

How does this even make sense?"

Ok, fine ignorantGuy. That sentence/paragraph could have been written a lot better.

I wrote "fragmented technology" to describe our current state in technology in regards to:

a. the majority of our technology is built away from from the central assembly line, area by component producers,

b. who communicate in different languages with each other, and

c. measure resources in different currencies under different types of governments, etc...

My point was that I believe this will all evolve into technology that is "grown" opposed to being "assembled" in the above manner.

 

"Through the virus/Xenomorph as glorious synthesis and poetic culmination of the species."

I thought that David's notes could be interpreted in a way that explained the Engineer technology development and genetic engineering was the foundation for all of it. And then the Engineers set the Xenomorph aside to be timid.

 

Ingeniero

Mar-27-2019 8:09 AM

And...no one has addressed that I'm trying to make my point citing the notes of a mad robot who could operate Engineer technology but blow it when asked who penned Ozymandias. Just saying.

Ingeniero

Mar-27-2019 8:17 AM

"This is how I interpret now Advent.

Can anyone help explain this: There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might.

What was the potential wasted?"

I believe David was trying to say that the Engineers got soft daliens.

Thoughts_Dreams

Mar-27-2019 9:04 AM

“they do seem to be a Distraction to what many fans would expect the Franchise to be about which is usually Xenomorphs!”

Sorry BD but if you look at the core thing in the movies it was never about the Xeno, which your reply makes it sound like (this is not to say that it is what you mean but to me your answer sounds like that).

“The AI element was likely to be about Artificially Created/Engineered Humanoids.”

Likely is the main word here, I am not sure if that is where it would be going and David would still have too much of a role in it. Nowhere does it say that it would be about that, I would guess that it would mainly be about David creating monsters. Remember that he said something like “I will not let them start again” or something like that. What I don’t like is that Scott seldom or never explains what he means about AI, if he is stubborn that it should be about it then at least explain more in detail what it is. To say that those in Blade Runner is AI isn’t enough, you got to be more specific. It is difficult when you have someone that is talking in riddles or at least talks in a way that makes it possible to have different interpretations. Either say what you mean or don’t say anything, otherwise it is just confusing. You shouldn’t need a dictionary when listening to an interview. Morse-code anyone? ;)

To paraphrase this page:

For learning the Ridley-code it is recommended that…

https://morsecode.scphillips.com/morse2.html

I get some hilarious mental images. :D

“... but some Fans may-not like this as it may put some Emphasis on David again.”

He could be used in some flashbacks, but I don’t think that he should be given this emphasis that he is given now. Sure it doesn’t need to be about David but they have built it like it is about him so how likely is it that they will totally change that? The problem is that it is set up in the way that it will be all about David, that is what I hear when I hear Scott talking.

“While Interesting to some, i think a point of concern would be IF our viewers can have any connection to a Genetically Engineered Species, as opposed to one with Weaknesses and Flaws.”

Genetically enhanced doesn’t have to mean perfect, so it depends. We all face struggles so would they probably. It depends on how they are written.

About Engineering humans, maybe it would be better if we leave that to the Engineers or maybe they have decided that it will be a failure from the start

“Then latter we could reveal a Sinister Motive to these Engineered Humans.”

That could work but no android-centric movie thank you very much.

“These are just how interesting a sequel could have been, that does-not have to be about Xenomorphs...”

I don’t think that it has ever been about the Xenos, it has always to me at least been about humans that get into situations that they are not equipped to handle. It has never been about how the Xeno eats, how it builds a home, and so on.

Prometheus should have had better links to the Xeno but the characters were the main problem.

“I am led to think those LV-223 Engineers are just the Replicants of the Engineer Society, maybe the LV-223 Engineers Rebelled and this caused some Ancient Conflict?”

Maybe, the Prometheus one looked like a steroid-version of those in Alien Covenant.

“Theme was one of the Big Ones that Ridley Scott wanted to explore...”

Well they decided to have it about David at the expense of human characters so that is what went wrong IMO. No matter of the themes, it is what we see on screen that counts. Sorry but I disagree, I don’t think that the prequels lack because of no Xeno or Ripley, most of the complaints have been about weak characters as far as I know. Not sure where you get this idea that the main complaint was about the lack of Ripley and/or Xenos, that is not my problem at least.

“But Fans wanted Xenomorphs, Queens and maybe Ripley's!”

I disagree, my understanding of it is that it was about poorly written and executed humans. Search the www for criticism of Prometheus + human characters and compare that to the complaint about lack of Xenos and you will see that the human characters was a bigger problem. For me at least it was not because it did not have the traditional monster. Some people are in it for the creatures I am in it for the human journey.

It is a good thing that the answer is a bit open, it is like what came first the chicken or the egg. I am not sure if the Xeno should be the ultimate weapon or a copy that the engineers (not David!) did.

“The Plot had been U-Turned with Alien Covenant, so now its David who has Re-Engineered the Deacon/Black Goo into the Xenomorph... which i think is ONE aspect that MOST fans can agree was a MISTAKE..”

Yeah that was really effing bad.

BigDave

Mar-27-2019 8:35 PM

"Sorry BD but if you look at the core thing in the movies it was never about the Xeno, which your reply makes it sound like"

Respectfully i have to disagree... the Franchise was about the Xenomorph it was the THREAT that carried the Story, but this Story is NOTHING without the Human Characters who would be placed in Peril with being pitted against such a threat...

I kind of see what you mean, as a Xenomorph alone is NOT what the Franchise should be about, you also had it about Ripley Character... but then also about a Company who wished to obtain the Xenomorph and would go to any lengths and extreames to do so.  But for any Story to WORK there has to be Characters at the Center... 

So its like say Friday the 13th, while it was about JASON, it did not matter if he had a Hockey Mask or a Sack on his Head.. you could replace Jason with a Human Skin wearing, Chainsaw Wielding Nutcase (Texas Chainsaw Massacre Leather Face) as long as there is a THREAT thats all that counts and this THREAT will only work well depending on the Human Characters who are placed in Peril and HOW well they are Written and HOW much we can connect and Empathize for them.

With the ALIEN Franchise its a bit different...  take ALIENS.. if Alien 3  we had the Sulcao end up being ambushed by some Camerons Avatar looking Navi Arcturian's would that had gone down well?

I think on the BROAD basis, i agree with the Franchise, the Xenomorph is ONLY a Part... and in terms of after the Franchise, with a Prequel i agree there should be something more than the Xenomorph... do something NEW.

Some Fans HOWEVER.. expect Xenomorphs and Connections when i agree the Prequels did-not have to give us exactly the same Xenomorphs.... but now they are going for a Literal Prequel a movie that has started to show HOW/WHEN/WHY the Xenomorph came to be, and will END with showing HOW/WHEN/WHY those Eggs got on the Derelict, then its expected as a ALIEN prequel series that it now is, then the Xeno is expected...  

And trying to do something thats NOT about the Xenomorph, so trying to pull a Prometheus for a Alien Covenant Sequel would be a Distraction....

My  OPINION! i dont see why we had to go that route, i would rather had seen Prometheus expand to something NEW and maybe give us a few Xeno-like Monsters, but not give us or be about Traditional Xenomorphs.. the ENGINEERS and Who created them and WHAT else they created (aside from Xenomorphs) is where i would have liked to had seen the Prequels go, and Steer Away from ALIEN... but Alas... we cant all get what we want.  And i feel the direction of AC was a mistake!

Should the ALIEN Franchise be about the Xenomorph? prior to Prometheus i would say YES! but you have to change it a little...  The Prequels opened up the other Engineer Experiments and so could have allowed the Franchise to give more than just Xenomorphs!

Should the Franchise be about the Company and its persuit of the Xenomorph.... NOPE!  well kind of NO... if its as far as Company Wants Xenomorph... you cant keep repeating this... with the Prequels we could have Company wants Engineer Technology and Black Goo instead... but you DONT have to always have the Company Sends Humans to places where Xenomorphs are to Exploit/Obtain them... there are other ways Humans could Accidentally stumble on Xenomorphs or Engineers other Horrors without the Company Planning it.

Should the Franchise be about the Ripleys?  Simple NO and enough said... YES the First 4 movies but we dont need connections with EVERY other movie..

" I would guess that it would mainly be about David creating monsters"

If you only watched the Movie and the Advent, then YES you could assume and it appears that this is Davids Objective....

However... when talking about the sequel Ridley Scott said it Would-Not be about the Xenomorph, it would be about AI and what KIND of a World David would Create/Build.

"What I don’t like is that Scott seldom or never explains what he means about AI"

Again he has done but only if you look at his interviews, where he had said about AI and then said that the Replicants are AI....  so here he is referring to a CREATION that is Not Natural...  It is something Engineered and Artificially Created... which Does-Not mean its a Robot made from None Organic Material.

If the Xenomorph was Created or Engineered it would also be a AI in terms of what RS was saying, if we created a Hybrid Dinosaur from Engineering a Ostrich then again this is NOT Natural so its a Artificial Creation but its NOT a AI because its Not Intelligent...   if we Created a Hybrid Human/Ape that was Intelligent then this would be a AI unless its a case of Human Mates with Ape... if its done via Genome Mixing/Engineering then its a AI.

But i agree RS does appear Vague with Statements, so confusion often happens., sometimes you can Ponder if he is the one who is Confused lol

I agree that they need to Balance the Next Installment, it should not Focus on David but it should not Write/Kill him off.  Each Fan to their own, everyone has likes/dislikes.. You like Alien 3, and i know people who HATE! that movie because it Killed off Newt and Hicks lol. Some people dont like David or Alien Covenant because it Killed Dr Shaw off..

I am more concerned at what it did to our Engineers as THIS is what the Prequels should be about, but you would need to have Human or Humanoid Characters you can connect with.

With Prometheus a lot complained about the Characters and some Dumb Stuff!   But there was a fair bit of Backlash because the Prequel did not EXPLAIN the Origins of the Xenomorph or have enough clues and it did not have Xenomorphs or enough similar Monsters.

This is what FOX then felt was missing... and why they changed things...  but in doing any changes, it all would come down to Characters and Story and if its Good, Well Written and Executed.

FOX felt that having the Origins Answered and introducing the Xenomorphs is WHAT the Fans want... Hence RS and his "they want Aliens, i will give them Fricken Aliens" comment.

I think he wanted to do something else, hence some of his last comments where he said regarding Alien Covenant, that he was AHEAD of the Curve with Prometheus.

Franchises and Fanbase does cause Problems and you cant NEVER please Fans, you wont make a Movie that pleases everyone.

Even when Star Wars EP9 comes out, it likely WONT please every fan, each Fan will have likes/dislikes... and what ever they do with the ALIEN Franchise would be the same.

I have said it before, all they can do is TRY and rescue the Franchise, like they are trying with the New Star Wars... and for Alien Covenant to Alien... i think we need a After-Math like Movie!

Whatever David does for the next 5-8 years is NOT likely going to please Fans, some may like the ideas RS maybe had, some wont... i think you need to build off them but come back to AFTER David has Created what ever he does, and the Point when  incoming Humans or Engineers Arrive and things GO TO POT..

ALIEN  year 2122

Alien Covenants Ending 2105

The 17 years between is something that i feel we dont need to see apart from say 5 years before ALIEN

Alien Covenant was like a Sequel to Prometheus 2 where they By-Passed Prometheus 2 and so what we need to do is not a Alien Covenant 2.... but a Alien Covenant 3 or Alien Covenant 2.5 and By-Pass a lot.

Most Fans are going to want to know WHEN the Xenomorphs get to become those that END up on the Derelict... some may hope for a Explanation that shows Davids Xenomorphs are NOT on the Derelict.

Some Fans would want to see the Engineers Return!

I feel most are not interested in David apart from finding out IF he does end up being the Creator or Not of the Xenomorph, and then be done with him.

I dont think most Fans are like... oh i we need mainly Good Human Characters... they would want other stuff but expect that the movie would need Improved Human Characters to work.

For example....

David kills all the Crew/Humans sets a Signal and other Human Ship with Good Characters Arrive and they Land on Origae-6 and Discover..

*NOTHING.. the Covenant is Destroyed... but the Planet does have some Native 12 Foot Space Lions, who Hunt Humans down!

*David Lands but he and the Colonist are killed by Predators, and they wait for more Prey to Hunt!

*David builds about 20 Walters, kills Humans and waits for other Humans to turn up and have to Fight to Survive against Synthetics.

*The Covenant and Colonist Die... David Raises the Embryos as Normal Children they they KILL him and become Feral and the incoming Humans arrive and Face some Aggressive Humans..

*Covenant Crashes, Kills David and Black Goo infects some Humans who become Zombie Fifields, KILL rest of the Crew and we have like Mutant Humans, who then become the threat to the incoming Humans.

We need Human Characters in Peril... but we also need a THREAT that is Good, and Fits within the ALIEN Franchise...

As a ALIEN Prequel it would be expected this THREAT is very connected to the Xenomorph or leads to it eventually.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Mar-28-2019 2:57 AM

FOX felt that having the Origins Answered and introducing the Xenomorphs is WHAT the Fans want... Hence RS and his "they want Aliens, i will give them Fricken Aliens" comment.

 

Yes, these words seem to be addressed to FOX, and not to fans. It doesn't matter - if they (FOX or Scott) listened to critics of Prometheus - why did they hear about aliens, but not about characters and strange behavior? Is it really harder to create a characters than alien?

For me it sounds like: "they want smart characters, i will not give them smart characters" LOL.

Leto

Mar-28-2019 3:07 AM

I think on the BROAD basis, i agree with the Franchise, the Xenomorph is ONLY a Part... and in terms of after the Franchise, with a Prequel i agree there should be something more than the Xenomorph... do something NEW.

 

Something like the Ultramorph! Aliens: Apocalypse - the Destroying Angels is masterpiece. This comic have a cool aliens and Mala'kak city. Plot - literally better than better than many films. And it have a dosed mythical themes in technology setting.

 

If you only watched the Movie and the Advent, then YES you could assume and it appears that this is Davids Objective....

However... when talking about the sequel Ridley Scott said it Would-Not be about the Xenomorph, it would be about AI and what KIND of a World David would Create/Build.

 

AND

 

If the Xenomorph was Created or Engineered it would also be a AI in terms of what RS was saying

 

Looks contradictory. But no, if it fits the idea of O'Bannon and Shusett about aliens as smart race. Good point.

BigDave

Mar-28-2019 4:52 PM

FOX and Co.... had determined that Fans wanted Xenomorphs... and i agree they should also have looked at the other complaints about Prometheus...

Alien Covenant proved that throwing the Xenomorph back in and going a Origins Route, was still not enough...  the Marketing Also did not drive masses to go and see the Movie before Word of Mouth got around about the Plot and how again the Characters and some Plot Points where again POOR.

But to be fair, its hard to get things Perfect! Try as they May...  I had  seen all the ALIEN Movies a few weeks ago, and to be honest having seen some other movies with Good Characters, the Franchise just is NOT a Masterpiece of Characters and Acting...   But certainly the First 3 Movies were Fine... after that, well the Characters never worked for me.

By the Time i got to Alien Resurrection, you just never cared for any of them... there was NO-ONE to Sympathize with maybe Call, but thats it...  Ripley 8 nope because it was getting Tiresome (IMO) and as she was a Hybrid she just seemed to not draw much of a Care, i was not Feeling for her, because she just appeared to be well like a Super Hero. i think the Hybrid Angle for me had taken her Humanity away a bit and i saw more Humanity in Call. The other Good Guys were just a bunch of Mercenaries and i had no connection to what happened to them, you knew they was just going to be Fodder and so your like MEH!  i actually felt more of a connection for some of Alien Covenants Cast (Oram, Karine, Lope and Faris and Rosenthal to a degree and the rest was like MEH

I was not even attached to Tennessee or Daniels and if they got killed i would be like.. oh crap what a Twist No Survivors but have Little Care for them...

Prometheus had same problems... you just never Rooted for anyone, Vickers and Janek maybe... you could see a more Solid Character in those TWO, the rest your like MEH!

The AVP Movies also similar, the 2nd one... well thats Totally Forgettable...

so yeah its not Easy to Pull Off of Characters that work, but it could have been done better than we had...   Another Good Example would be the THING when comparing the First to the Prequel...

REGARDING THE SET UP....

I think Disney/FOX have to bare in mind, that Fans are going to expect Xenomorphs to a Degree, and the Set-Up and Motives of David do seem to point to him having only One Agenda as far as what he would Create... The Advent Viral even further pushing us towards that.

Not many fans are going to be aware to Ridley Scotts comments about AI and NOT being about the Xenomorph, and so by Virtue of Carrying the ALIEN Prefix... they are setting the Fans up for Disappointment, if the Plans do not keep some ALIEN connection as far as DNA of the Xenomorph and Engineers.

They have to find a Balance, but trying to Balance stuff out is a bit restrictive depending on the Running TimeAlien Covenant is Testament to that, and why some Sacrifices had to be made (Engineer/Dr Shaw Screen time or Lack Of).

I Totally Agree about O'Bannon, we have to introduce some elements of his ideas that had not been used yet.  The Fresco in Prometheus could allude to something the Engineers Encountered that they then tried to exploit its Traits and Engineer a whole manner of Horrors from.

Alien Engineers it appears the Organism that infects Holloway fits the similar bill....  but these dont come across as Intelligent to me.... but some more Basic Xeno/Neo-Morph like Organism.

The Engineers just were not ALIEN enough to WOW Fans, and maybe they need to introduce another Species that could be used as a Origin to the Engineers Bio-Technology and Aesthetic of the Xenomorph and Derelict... introduce another Intelligent Species that is very ALIEN.  And maybe taking ideas of WHO the Starbeast Long Lost species where could be a Starting Point.

I wonder if the idea was that Davids Xenomorph, Merges with Davids Engineered Humans to Create Something that then Merges with David to become the Xenomorph in ALIEN is something they are considering?

For me this would make it all about David... and i think thats a mistake.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Apr-03-2019 8:36 AM

BD:

Sure I agree that it will not be perfect but they should have tried better like getting a writer that can write characters or at least someone that does not write it so we only get three or maybe four of them (MF *2, Oram, and eventually Farris).

“But certainly the First 3 Movies were Fine... after that, well the Characters never worked for me.”

For me too as far as Prometheus is concerned I think that Janek and David were alright but I did not care about the rest. The AVP’s, ha ha ha!

“I think on the BROAD basis, i agree with the Franchise, the Xenomorph is ONLY a Part... and in terms of after the Franchise, with a Prequel i agree there should be something more than the Xenomorph... do something NEW.”

Yeah, otherwise it gets repetitive (Friday the 13 th anyone?).

“And trying to do something thats NOT about the Xenomorph, so trying to pull a Prometheus for a Alien Covenant Sequel would be a Distraction....”


Maybe but it also depends on what you focus on and how you make the human characters. They can try something new but it has to be given a lot of thought and be executed well (I actually thought that the Engineers were interesting, not so much David in Covenant though). I agree that it must be better than Prometheus but at least it tried something new to its credit.

Yes new monsters and the Engineers is what I hope that the next one will have. They got to be made interesting and make sense without being obvious.

The company could have a part in it so we get the no good corporation thing back. I do not say that it has got to be all about that but at least I am more interested in that than in Weyland trying to get more life.

“However... when talking about the sequel Ridley Scott said it Would-Not be about the Xenomorph, it would be about AI and what KIND of a World David would Create/Build.”

Yeah, the thing is that I don’t care about that at all. I am tired of it always being about David so stop that. There are more things that you can have in the prequels without it being dominated by a robot that is just evil/have a messed up programming or what ever.

“But i agree RS does appear Vague with Statements, so confusion often happens., sometimes you can Ponder if he is the one who is Confused lol”

Someone give him an interpreter, now. LMAO!

What I like about the franchise that the movies are different compared to each-other so many people find something to like and very few people agree with each-other, but that is alright. Yes I know that many dislike Alien 3 but I am totally fine with that, there are many people that like it but also many that dislike it or are indifferent to it.

Yup, the Engineers are interesting and I hope that they will get an expanded role if there will be another movie. Less David please.

“FOX felt that having the Origins Answered and introducing the Xenomorphs is WHAT the Fans want... Hence RS and his "they want Aliens, i will give them Fricken Aliens" comment.”

Yeah but I think that Fox misread the whole situation. I have seen many comments about characters doing lame stuff but I have seen less criticism that there were no aliens.

“Whatever David does for the next 5-8 years is NOT likely going to please Fans,”

I can only speak for myself but I honestly do not care about that. He can go fishing or something and I would be like “what ever”.

“some may hope for a Explanation that shows Davids Xenomorphs are NOT on the Derelict.”

Yes please

“I dont think most Fans are like... oh i we need mainly Good Human Characters... they would want other stuff but expect that the movie would need Improved Human Characters to work.”

I can see that but then how would they react if the characters were not well-done? This is where I think that they are important even if that is not what you find the most interesting about it.

“We need Human Characters in Peril... but we also need a THREAT that is Good, and Fits within the ALIEN Franchise...”

I agree, but no Zombie (I am looking at you Prometheus) thank you very much.

Running time, well they got to prioritize. For me it is a good story and good human characters, at least so there are enough of them. The rest comes after that (environment, androids, what ever).

“For me this would make it all about David... and i think thats a mistake.”

Yeah because if that is the plan they might as well throw it into the toilet.

BigDave

Apr-03-2019 3:59 PM

Absolutely the Characters have to work..... i dont think Characters are what you build the movie about, you need to look at the Plot Points to build a Structure, these are the Basis....   The Blocks of the Movie.

ONCE you have that... then you have to look at the Characters you have in the Movie and then its a Question of HOW WELL these are done that will effect how well the Movie will do...   The Development/Execution of the Characters are the THREAD that ties it together, the MORTAR that  binds the BLOCKS

A Weak Mortar and the Blocks will just Fall Apart! So yes once you have your PLOT, you then need to get the Characters Right... a Movie can FAIL on how Poor or Connecting the Characters are... so in a way this is  PRIORITY.

You can get a Plot a A-Z of the Movie done that sounds Good and Interesting, then you need a Writer in who can Flesh Out the Characters then a Director who can get the BEST out of them, and Cast who can Portray them well.

I know your not a Fan of the Android Aspect... and a Fan of Human Characters, but a Movie can work and have you connect with NONE-HUMAN Characters IF its done right but you will always need STRONG and WELL-WRITTEN Humans to act as a ANCHOR point, and be our Eyes/POV to the Story.

So indeed any Movie that covers other Races, or Engineers, would need Human Characters to connect with the Audience.

A Problem with say David having his own Colony of Engineered Superior Humans, and having little or NO Humans in the movie...  would be its hard to connect to such beings especially if they appear Less Human and are Superior and somewhat Super Human.. 

They have to be given some Humanity, some Peril, something to have us see some Plight for their Species.  This could be difficult to accomplish but NOT impossible.  It would require making any other Characters be they Incoming Humans or Engineers, be the ones who the Nasty Selfish SOB's and making the Engineered Humanoids on Origae-6 the ones who are innocent and in plight, just as the Avatar  has with the Na'vi...  you could even have David become Disappointing and try to Destroy these Humanoids, and see their Peril at escaping the Plans David has for them!

But for this to work, it usually would need some Humans to act as support and Sympathizers to these Humanoids. And being the ones to try and help those Humanoids... or have some Humans in Peril and have some of these Humanoids to help the Humans.

Without any ACTUAL Humans it would become harder to Gauge/Connect with any other Humanoid Species, be they Engineers, be they Davids Creations or some Natives on Origae-6.

There is so many ways a Sequel set on Origae-6 could go, and we could see that there are some Native Humanoids, and if we are to connect with them, then they have to be portrayed as Innocents, and the Colonist or David as the Wicked... but this kind of PLOT could become a bit too much like AVATAR.

Certainly is something to consider... what a surprise it would be for the Covenant Colonist to Discover Origae-6 has Humanoids already there... HOW do they react?

Do the Natives become Aggressive, Welcoming?

Do they form a Bond/Covenant and work hand in hand, and then we see the Colonist start to Treat Walter as just a Machine, and so Walter (David) starts to feel... "here we go again"...  and then Unleashes Hell on those Humans?

How do the Natives React? Does he attack them too? How do they View/Treat David?  Would they see him as a Godly Figure, and how would Humans react to that.

So yes a lot of Potential, but again maybe it puts Davids Role as being quite HIGH for some Fans, and also Fans would ask HOW would this connect to ALIEN eventually and so it would have to have the Xenomorph or Similar involved and SET-UP a sequel that would connect more closer to ALIEN.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-03-2019 4:20 PM

"There are more things that you can have in the prequels without it being dominated by a robot that is just evil/have a messed up programming or what ever"

AND

“some may hope for a Explanation that shows Davids Xenomorphs are NOT on the Derelict.”

Yes please"

You are not alone in these concerns... in context to what we do for a sequel, and one that revolves around David Engineering another Human Race who inhabits Origae-6

A large Problem is what kind of a Society/Civilization is built by the time any other Human Ship arrives... and the TIME-RESTRAINTS of the Franchise would LIMIT this.

You see if we ASSUME that we are going to Origae-6, then by the time we have the Covenant Arrive, until when the Nostromo Crew Discover the Derelict we are left with JUST 10 years.

IF they indicate in the sequels that DAVID does-not create the Xenomorph that is on LV-426, then the sequels are not BOUND by Forcing/Marching us to when Davids Xenomorphs end up on the Derelict within a Space of 10 years.

But then Fans are expecting a ALIEN Prequel... and a Engineer's Return...  which limits the DEPTH you could give to any Origae-6 Story as far as a World that has Humanoids that David would Engineer.

IF we go for such a Plot... then Davids Engineered Humans would have to GROW Quick... but we have seen this explored with Clone Movies and Replicants.  so this could still WORK.

The Dislike for David.. would be a Problem... ONE-WAY would be a Aftermath... A Human Ship arrives at Origae-6 some 5-7 years after David arrived and they discover these Humanoids who are a bit Different... and maybe David is Dead/Disappeared?

IF these Humanoids were raised on the Doctrine that David is their Creator and God, and he had Died, or Disappeared.. then it would be interesting HOW these Humanoids would react to the Incoming Humans!

Would they know who Humans are?  What would David had said?

The BIGGER twist would be IF this Human Ship has a Walter, and then those Humanoids could INSTANTLY think this is the Return of their Messiah!

What happens when the Humans and Walter, discover Effigies to David/Walter and see he was seen as GOD/Creator to these Humanoids?   And then the Humans/Walter explain to these beings the Origins of David/Walter a revelation that their Would-Be GOD is actually a Creation of these Incoming Humans.   And that these Androids are meant to Serve and NOT be Gods.

HOW would a Superior Race to Humans accept that these inferior Species have turned up and declare that they are the Creator of their GOD! and there is NOTHING important about their Creator, he is ONE of many who are made to Serve MANKIND.

This would be VERY interesting, a PLOT that could lessen Davids Screen Time (he could not even play a Role) and Fassbender plays a Walter like Character.  You could also wonder how does the Incoming Walter Model React when he sees that ONE of his own Kind could go on to become a Creator and God like Figure instead of being a Servant?

What happens when Engineers Turn up or do so in a Sequel?

The PROBLEM is that by going for a Direct Prequel route now, any of this would be a Distraction, the Xenomorph would be expected, and the movie would be expected to SET-UP a sequel that would HAVE to be more ALIENY and link to ALIEN..

So its a Distraction!

But i do expect Elements explored in my Topics on this subject to show up in Ridley Scotts TV Series Raised by Wolves, which will have Freedom to Express these and not be Forced to have to connect to ALIEN.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Apr-04-2019 3:49 AM

If Fox/Disney get away from direct prequel of Alien... And if they want to create the David's world and his Star Childrens, they should put they story as parallel arc of Alien/Aliens. And third film sets a plot after Aliens. This give a time for David experiments, civilization, Star Childrens and many another things. Just disconnect prequels from Alien plot.

BigDave

Apr-04-2019 5:36 AM

Certainly Leto...

This is the Pickle we Find ourselves in because it appeared that Prometheus 2 was going to GO OFF and do its own separate thing and STEER Away from Alien.

Maybe RS has intended with the sequel to allow it to be a movie that can Bridge a Gap and OFFER TWO Directions, a Third Alien Prequel that takes us to the Back Door of ALIEN and another Sequel that could cover the Engineers and Creation on a different Tangent.

They have to find the Balance....  if the Next Movie is too much about David and his World and Creations and if these LACK any real Xenomorph/Alieny look about them... then i think it could Disappoint some Alien Fans who then may not be interested in another Prequel even if it would be more Direct Set-Up to ALIEN.

We can assume Davids Agenda has to be Create Xenomorph and Unleash it on Earth... but if this was the case, it would make more sense for him to head to LV-223, or stay on Planet 4.  As opposed to going to Origae-6

I think we have to look at the Multiple Layers here, and so we could see David take a similar stance to the Engineers...

If we assume the Engineers Create Life for a Benevolent Reason...  you would find it Logical that they can Create Something Else to PROTECT them from other Races or Unruly Creations..

So if David intends to Create his Own Star Children, he would be wise to also have a Large Number of Xenomorph Eggs that he can use to PROTECT his World/Creation, but also to PUNISH it should they Rebel and become Unruly.

Its getting the Balancing Act that will attract and please the most Fans... this is up to Disney to Gauge this... FOX felt that a Prometheus 2 should have gone the route of Alien Covenant and maybe that was a Error of Judgement by them.

In Hindsight Prometheus should have been less Ambiguous with the Xenomorph Origin Clues, and it should have had more Alieny Action like Scenes... so Fans could see more clearly that the Engineers and LV-223 are connected to the Xenomorph.

This would have allowed a Prometheus 2 to Steer Away from ALIEN and Xenomorphs, while giving Fans more Answers and allowed for a ALIEN movie about Xenomorphs to come out that does-not have to worry about stepping on the toes of anything Prometheus or its Sequel would cover.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Apr-04-2019 6:37 AM

No. It is not about balance or xenomorphs. It's all about time. No time before Nostromo accident. But there is time before Aliens. Put third (and four) David's films parallel Alien story before 2179, or after this year and we have standalone world with its own history and mystery!

BigDave

Apr-04-2019 5:29 PM

I can see what you mean by TIME...

What i was referring to with BALANCE is that the Alien Franchise is expected to Maintain some Element of the ALIEN Movie, when people are asked about ALIEN those that do know your on about that 1979 Movie or even 1986 Aliens, will mostly associate the Franchise with the Xenomorph, and second to that Ripley/Miss Weaver they are the Iconic Elements most people remember (i am not just talking Alien Fanbase here).

The other Aspect that was ALIEN in terms of the First Movie was the Very Ship, its Pilot that the Dreaded Egg Cargo was Discovered on.

Prometheus had toned down the Aesthetic of the Derelict, we could see a connection via the Engineers Architecture and Technology but it appeared to be more Mechanical...   The Larger Difference was that a ALIEN Prequel (which a lot of people saw the movie as) simply DID-NOT have much Xenomorph like Aesthetic, the Monsters had a bit of the DNA but it was not enough for some, but it was fine for others.

There was a lot of Vague Clues and References, but for some they was just too ambiguous.  Not everyone could clearly see that this Place these Engineers were found (LV-223) that had the Aesthetic of the Space Jockey/Derelict to a degree.. for some Fans the Xenomorph like DNA in the Monsters (Hammerpede, Mutant, Fifield and the Trilobite/Deacon) was not quite enough, certainly as far as giving them a connection to HOW the Xenomorph came to be.

I lacked that Balance over Needing a little more Xeno DNA/Clues, it could have done with some Alieny Encounters, as the Hammerpede Attack, Fifield were simply not enough.

HOWEVER... you could see that ALIEN connection as far as the Aesthetic, maybe it was not Strong Enough for some but there was a Element that this was a ALIEN Movie.

If we take Alien Covenant.... it had further toned down the Aesthetic that we saw from ALIEN, we had a few Glimpses of it only as far as the Bombardment Scene (Engineer Ships) but the rest of the Architecture lacked that ALIEN look from the First Movie..

What Alien Covenant did have was more Alieny Monsters and clues to the Xenomorph Origins, by that Davids Workshop Scenes, and Dialect showed us in a less ambiguous way about what Davids Experiments were about, as opposed to the Vague Clues in Prometheus as far as the Engineers Experiments.

The Neomorph and Xenomorphs brought us very much Alien Monster Encounters that maybe some fans expected in the First Movie..

What i am saying is that Alien Covenant while it had the Alieny Monsters and less ambiguity to how they came to be, it lacked the Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic to the Engineers City that was expected, aside from the Engineers Ships... yet with LV-223 we got this Architectural Aesthetic that was similar to ALIEN

Prometheus had this Aesthetic but lacked the Alieny Monsters of Alien Covenant and so if they had more of a Balance, say Prometheus had the Neomorph Monsters/Screen Time..   And Less Ambiguous Clues to the Xenomorph connection, then this would have helped Prometheus (but the Characters etc would still have needed Improving).

If Alien Covenant had shown a bit more of a LV-223 Aesthetic to the City, then it would have had more of a ALIEN Feel...   Take Away Davids Experiments, the Neomorph and Xenomorph and Alien Covenant would not have that ALIEN Balance.

So what i am saying is that a ALIEN Prequel, that would contain NO Engineer Technology/Aesthetic until a Incoming Ship in the Final Act, and has NO Monsters that have any Xenomorph DNA...  would appear to be a Movie that would bear NO resemblance of a ALIEN movie to most fans.

But these can come in the 3rd Act... however i feel if the Movie which is a Alien Prequel would be about David creating his own Humanoids to Rule Over, who live in a Village that is very Middle Aged (Wooden) and so kind of his own Amish Village of Genetically Altered Humans who see David as God/Creator...  i just think a majority of Fans would NOT be so happy with this Plot...

Expectation would be mainly about HOW/WHEN does David Produce more Xenomorphs or Similar and when does another Human Ship or Engineers arrive were we would see more of a AVP like Action Plot (replace Predators with Engineers).

Because the Majority of such a Plot like this, that would not be about Xenomorphs, or carry any Aesthetic, would appear to NOT be a Alien Movie and a bit of a Distraction... so they need a Balance...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-04-2019 6:06 PM

"It's all about time. No time before Nostromo accident."

I can now comment more on you point.... If we have the Prequels that will be a  A-Z  with A being Prometheus and Z being Alien.  We have this Approx 30 year Period from when the Prometheus set off on its Voyage to Discover our Origins to when the Nostromo Crew Discover the Horrors on the Derelict.

At Present we are in the Year 2105 and so nearly 45% through that Time-Line of Events...  Leaving us 17 years until the Derelict is Discovered, thats not a lot of time to cover in TWO movies what Events will Lead to WHEN/HOW/WHY the Derelict lands on LV-426.

Even less if we do consider that FIRST we have to have the Covenant and David arrive at Origae-6, which would be the Year 2112 which takes us a little over 2/3rds of that Time-Line.  And would leave us with about 10 years before we have the Nostromo Turn up at LV-426

Thats not a lot of time to cover TWO movies... and certainly if the Next One will be based around David and what World/Kingdom he would Build/Create...  a Movie that has a HIGH % about this Plot would not Engage as many ALIEN Fans as i think they would like,  they would have to introduce a % of ALIEN related Aesthetic/Elements which then by trying to have a Balance you could be left with NOT having enough Screen Time to do either Element Justice, which we can see had been a Problem with Alien Covenant.  But if they make it mainly about Davids World, then Set-Up the Next movie we would get a more ALIENY Sequel, then we have the case of would Fans NOT be interested and if Box Office of Davids World is NOT Good then would they risk another Sequel?

So i understand the idea you present, would allow a Movie about Davids World and Creation to not have to Force Itself to March Towards Alien, and fit things within a 10 Year Time Restraint..

Having Davids Journey go off on a different Tangent that Does-Not connect Directly to ALIEN...  while it would lift some Restraints to what kind of Story/World this could give us.

Alien Covenant has been set up as a ALIEN Prequel and so it would be expected that events would have to Literally Connect to ALIEN.    If say they took the route your propose and we have what ALIEN: Elysium which would be about Davids World.... then by Virtue of the ALIEN name the Fans would expect some Xenomorph Related stuff, which could be catered for by giving us Davids Xenomorph at some point and other Hybrids...  we could have another Human Ship arrive or/and Engineers and have this take place say in the year 2120-2130

But we would have to conclude IF this connects to ALIEN which in such a case it would NOT, and so we would need clues to suggest that Davids Xenomorphs Cant/Dont end up on the Derelict.

But then we are still going to have some Fans who thought that a ALIEN Prequel would eventually show or inform us HOW/WHEN those Eggs got onto the Derelict and so they would expect a ALIEN Prequel.

Which i guess would be best done if Weyland Yutani sends another Ship to LV-223 or Planet 4, where they can then introduce some Clues that would Indicate the Xenomorphs Origins to be Older than the Re-Creation that David had done on Planet 4.

And this to a degree is what i had indicated in a early post, but i was thinking that a Alien Covenants Sequel acts as a Bridge to Span Off to TWO Movies... one that would cover the Engineers/Creation, another that would give more clues to ALIEN.

But when i come to think about it... using Alien Covenant as the Bridge/Fork in the Road could work out better... and so indeed go off to ONE Path that is Davids World, that will eventually introduce some more Alieny Elements....  but then have another Movie where the Company go to LV-223 or Planet 4 that can then either show us clues that the Xenomorph was already around... and be a much more ALIENY movie.

If they go to Planet 4, they could encounter Davids Xenomorph, and when Engineers Return maybe we could get some Clues that they had created the First Bio-Mechanical Version or Encountered it in the past..

Or this Movie could Literally connect to ALIEN by Virtue of Engineers take Davids Xenomorph and Evolve it to the Bio-Mechanical Version and set up a Direct Chain of Events that LINK to Alien.

I actually think this could be the Direction that is BEST to take..

They would have to do the Parallel Movie First (one that goes to LV-223 or Planet 4) and does-not follow David and the Covenant.   If this movie introduces the Engineers in a way thats Interesting to Most Fans, and we are then informed that the other STORY about David would also introduce the Engineers, then it would maybe get Fans who would not be happy to see a Davids Movie to be on board, because they have got a more Alieny Prequel that is NOT about David or he creates the Xenomorph.

If this more Alieny/Aliens like Sequel to Alien Covenant does-not do well, then it would allow Disney to then look at the Franchise and THINK! so maybe RS was right... and then take the other Sequel to Alien Covenant (Davids World) and try something different.

I think such a IDEA would be the Best Route to take... i know its not the route RS may have wanted.. but lets be FRANK!  i dont think he wanted to go the Literal Prequel Route anyway... and at least this way, his Davids World Movie would no longer have to connect to ALIEN at all. And so he can explore more of what he wanted to do.

This could be a WIN/WIN.

If they took this route and BOTH movies Bombed, then Disney would be left with maybe ONE option and that would be a Blomkamp Alien 5 bring back the Gang! and if this Bombed... then i think it would be CURTAINS for the Franchise Theatrically.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-04-2019 6:28 PM

Even IF we go for a Davids World First (i think Fans wont be interested in unless it had some Xenomorph Elements).

David could introduce his Humanoids the Star Children to incoming Humans from Earth, he could have some Dialect about the Engineers.  

Where he could state that what he is attempting and achieved is to better his Creator and our Would be Gods, he could go on about how our Creators the Engineers had created a In-superior being in Mankind, and how  Mankind had Surpassed their own Creators by Creating a More Superior being in their likeness which is HIM (David).  HE could then go on and say that he has taken the Engineers Secrets of Creation and Created a FAR more Superior Humanoid Species...

Then he could also say that the Engineers Greatest Creation was the Xenomorph, which they then tried to Banish, as they could not Control it... and then David could BOAST that he has YET AGAIN, bested our Creators by Reproducing his own Evolved Xenomorph.

This would indicate the Xenomorph on LV-426 is NOT one of Davids Creations... it would FIT with the Prometheus Themes, of the Pursuit of Perfection/Creation and Evolution.

He could then claim that he has his Wolf that is superior to the Engineers Version, he has his Lambs that are superior to the Engineers Version (Mankind) but he is NOT Finished, and that he has yet to reveal his MASTERPIECE.

Where he can then have a AMALGAMATION of his Humans MK2  and Xenomorph MK2 to make the Ultimate Hybrid.

A Hybrid that would maybe have some traits of the Above HR Giger work, could be his latest eventual Creation and ONE that could lead to the Hubris as they Rebel against David.

You could go Further by when the Engineers discover these beings that David had Created, his Masterpiece... maybe they could BOW down in Worship as they could see Davids HYBRID as the Reincarnation of the Engineers Masters and Source of their Bio-Mechanical Technology/Black Goo.

So we kind of come FULL CIRCLE.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Apr-10-2019 9:03 AM

BD

You mention the plot and yeah I think that is what you should look at first and the characters next. Sure I can connect to a non-human character too if they are well-written. Chewbacca is an example, or even the Naviis (name?) in Avatar or Maz Kanada in TFA. The thing is that they were sympathetic and  well-done. David was interesting but an asshole and it was all about him while Maz and Chewwie were well done characters in a larger story.

You can even have maybe some androids in the background that are sympathetic but they got to work so we can identify with them and they shall not be played by one actor. Alien to me though is not about the androids even though they can be made interesting.

“A Problem with say David having his own Colony of Engineered Superior Humans, and having little or NO Humans in the movie...  would be its hard to connect to such beings especially if they appear Less Human and are Superior and somewhat Super Human..”

Exactly because then they are more like something that we could see in X-men and not relatable in this franchise although I like X-men 1 and 2. Having them here would just be strange.

Humans made from test-tubes or made naturally, what ever. As long as they are well-written and we can support them it is fine by me.

“you could even have David become Disappointing and try to Destroy these Humanoids, and see their Peril at escaping the Plans David has for them!”

Yeah but don’t make it about David and also have some interesting monster sin it.  It is Alien not “David’s experiments” Yeah we need real humans also from someone that can write and execute them well on the screen otherwise we are fucked.

“... but this kind of PLOT could become a bit too much like AVATAR.”

Yeah but at the same time I would take that over another movie that is like Covenant. The thing is to make it your own and not make it like a copy which might be easier said than done at least if that is the story that we shall follow.

“Do they form a Bond/Covenant and work hand in hand, and then we see the Colonist start to Treat Walter as just a Machine, and so Walter (David) starts to feel... "here we go again"...  and then Unleashes Hell on those Humans?”

Or maybe David looses control over his monsters so they turn on him and the humans. WMD’s can also get out of control, that is why they are so dangerous and it is also stupid to make them. I would not like David to be featured that much, keep him in the background like a boss in a computer game. He could be in the end of the movie or in small portions but not what the movie is about.

“ TIME-RESTRAINTS”

Yeah but then cut down the time of David and have him in the background (background character). I do not want another movie like Covenant. If we would get another Covenant I would be like “fuck no”(notice there are no !!!’s, it is a matter of how I annoyed I would be and many !!!’s looks like screaming and I am usually calmer than that even though I would not like it).

More Engineers less David thanks, I would buy that. I think that the Engineers are interesting. Fassbender as a Walter like character would be fine, I kind of liked Walter although it was too much of an android movie.

“HOW would a Superior Race to Humans accept that these inferior Species have turned up and declare that they are the Creator of their GOD! and there is NOTHING important about their Creator, he is ONE of many who are made to Serve MANKIND.”

Yeah but make it tied to alien in a way because the movies are Alien prequels. This does not mean that you got to show the Xenos a lot. The shorts did not show the Xenos much and that worked.

“What happens when Engineers Turn up or do so in a Sequel?”

I would like to see that, it would be interesting but they should be as the Engineer in Prometheus, not how they were in AC. Raised By Woklves? He can make it if he wants to, I don’t care.

As far as bits in your other post I got to mention the Zombie Fifield. I was like, OK? How does this connect to the Xeno? He was a zombie, which could be fine in another movie but not there. Also they should have decided in P was an alien prequel or not, the way that they put it (is it or is it not?) was just dumb.

Yup the Engineer city what ever in AC was disappointing. They should have made it more biomechanical.

“however i feel if the Movie which is a Alien Prequel would be about David creating his own Humanoids to Rule Over, who live in a Village that is very Middle Aged (Wooden) and so kind of his own Amish Village of Genetically Altered Humans who see David as God/Creator...  i just think a majority of Fans would NOT be so happy with this Plot...”
That seems boring to me, I don’t want that.

“Even IF we go for a Davids World First (i think Fans wont be interested in unless it had some Xenomorph Elements)."

That would still be too much about David if he is not killed off early in the movie or something similar. Yeah some Alien elements should be expected, at least it will be so for me.

BigDave

Apr-11-2019 6:17 PM

"David was interesting but an asshole"

Whats done is done, you can redeem yourself by improving on Characters, Dr Shaw could have been given a New ARC in a Prometheus 2... like imagine if she finds out the TRUTH is nothing like her Faith Teaches and Renders her Faith as False!  that could BREAK her Character and HOW would she act?

So with David they have to look at what went WRONG.. if we looked at Prometheus and The Crossing, then we could see there was a way they could have made his Character something we could sympathize with.  So with David its a case of making him a Character that Redeems himself, or has KIND intentions for his World, until Mankind come along and F it Up!

But a major Problem is many people just have wrote David off, they are Not Interested in him and may not be open to any Story Changes..

David also is a Scapegoat!

For those wanting to see Dr Shaw and get her Answers, or/and to see the Engineers..... well THEY CANT.. because David had KILLED THEM ALL.

For those looking forwards to the Xenomorph and its Origins... they was SHOCKED that a Android had Created it, which TOTALLY is unexpected for most Fans... again Davids FAULT!

I think the BIGGEST Problem... is that ALIEN is about ALIENS... and the Xenomorph is what most connect with the Franchise, the Prequels showed us WHO the Space Jockey are.....  But they was ALL 2nd Fiddle to DAVID... the movie was more about David...

Any sequel about David and NOT about Xenomorphs or Engineers will just NOT interest most people...  at the moment all this is just a Distraction from what Fans would expect/want a ALIEN Prequel series to be about.

I feel we are better of arriving at ORIGAE-6 in some After-math or that David is killed off in the First Act.

Not ideally what i would want... but most fans would want the NEXT movie to hurry up and get us connecting to ALIEN and so they would want to by-pass until the Part other Humans Arrive and the £"%£ hits the FAN and then the Engineers Turn up...

What i am saying is IF  we assume the Sequels until we get to ALIEN would have been TWO movies...  Both say 2-2.5 hours.  If the Plot is as i speculated, then i just feel that the 4-5 hours we have until we reach the Back Door to ALIEN... i feel the First HOUR would be something that Fans would not be interested in and feel is a Distraction..

So it would be best to like Discount the First 60-90 Min of the said Plot...   just as if we assume the Events from the End of Prometheus until the Covenant Ship detects Dr Shaws Signal...   could have made another 2 hour Movie!

But we just Bypassed that 2 hour CROSSING movie if you would... i feel maybe we need to do the same with Davids Kind of World...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Apr-16-2019 8:14 AM

BD:

Yeah they could have improved Shaw, if they would have written her a bit more like she was in The Crossing. To me it was difficult since I was so disappointed with her in Prometheus but yeah it could have worked.

I think that they can make David a more sympathetic character (more like in Prometheus) but I don’t want the movie to be about him even if they write him in a more sympathetic way. I am in it for the human journey but it could work.

Yeah David might be a symbol of blame for some when they are disappointed with other things but not to me. I am disappointed that they chose to focus on David when to me there are other things that are more interesting and also that he is the creator of the Xeno, at least for now. From a theme point of view it works but from a story point of view it is really a disappointment. You could have David like he was in AC and I would forgive that if the humans were well-written but they were not. There was no balance

Well I am more interested in the Xeno and the SJ compared to David, he is not that important compared to them at least that is how I look at it. My preferred way when it comes to what is important to the franchise. Some people are interested in it but I am not.

Honestly I am not interested in another movie about David, I am burned out about that. Sure he can be a part of it but not like he was in Covenant when he was the movie so to speak (OK not really but you understand). Some people are interested in the David part so there has got to be something for them also but he should be given a reduced role.

“I feel we are better of arriving at ORIGAE-6 in some After-math or that David is killed off in the First Act.”

If that is the alternative to have a two-hour movie about David then I take it. It kind of depends how they make the movie in general. The could write him better and still reduce his role compared to AC and Prometheus.

“the Part other Humans Arrive and the £"%£ hits the FAN and then the Engineers Turn up...”

That seems interesting to me. I they make some of the humans work as characters and if they make the Engineers make sense and the Xeno being a result of the Engineers and just be a part of it then I am in. Sure the monsters can look interesting but it has never been about them to me at least.

“But we just Bypassed that 2 hour CROSSING movie if you would... i feel maybe we need to do the same with Davids Kind of World...”

Yeah but if that is what is needed for me to enjoy the movie then sure make it like that. This is not to say that you can’t have philosophical questions in it (Alien had that) but it should be about the humans first and the androids as a part of that. They have got the priority wrong this far but if the Engineers show up at Davids world, David is killed sure. After that you have the humans and the Engineers on David’s world and his monsters that are there to F both groups up and still show us that David is just a middle-man in the creation of the Xeno then yeah it could work.

 

Leto

Apr-16-2019 10:04 AM

Star Childrens will never rebel against David, if he never says to them: Bring me the tea.

BigDave

Apr-16-2019 7:43 PM

Ha Ha.... Nice Point Leto!

Maybe the more AI element that RS was on about is David attempts to create the Perfect Automated Tea Making Service.

@Thoughts_Dreams

I think for most, they would see no way that David could Redeem himself due to how he was in Alien Covenant.... and a World of Humanoids that he created would be hard for Fans to attach to, especially if they are Vastly Superior.

the only way your gonna get any Sympathy would be to show David as a Kind Creator/Leader to his Creations, then have the Humans Turn up and some of these are EVIL SOB'S as lets Face it while RS may think the most Horrific Dangerous thing about AI is when it becomes Sentient and Determines we are just Cockroaches on Earth then we are in TROUBLE...

We can look at Engineers as Evil... we can look at God from the Bible as Evil at times, as far as a bit harsh! but they have reasons for it...

But in reality Mankind is Neutral for the Most Part, but you can have some Wonderful Kind Humans... but then there is through History a LOT of very EVIL/WICKED and Cruel things that Mankind has done..

So YES we Humans are the Ultimate Evil....

Making Humans the Bad Guys could work... it could make Davids World a bit more like that in AVATAR though... and for it to work you would have to have some Sympathetic Humans to David and his Creations, who go against the Wickedness of some of the Human Antagonist....  but where we have a FEW new Human Characters as the main Protagonist.

But its a case of WHO could fit such a role?  Daniels?..  Maybe they KILLED Dr Shaw off to early ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Ingeniero

Jun-25-2019 1:28 PM

"How does this even make sense? They stopped using the black goop for at least 2000 years but they seem to be able to do space travel without." 

David's notes written in the King's English were a major contributor to this part of the story making sense to me ignorantGuy."

I apologize ignorantGuy.  My above response was disrespectful and I regret writing it.  Your comments are appreciated, especially by me, and I do not sign on here to disrespect anyone.

Ingeniero

Jun-25-2019 2:25 PM

"Well I am more interested in the Xeno and the SJ compared to David, he is not that important compared to them at least that is how I look at it. My preferred way when it comes to what is important to the franchise. Some people are interested in it but I am not."

I've seen your comment above echoed in another topic, seen below, Thoughts_Dreams and it really has made me laugh.  

I am not mocking you, even in the slightest, when I write that...I just believe that if the flute lessons and the kiss/kill scenes had been pulled then we might have had an entirely different response to Alien: Covenant. 

"Like I have said before we need human characters to sympathize with and that work or else it will fail, again. Making David the creator of the Xenos is trash so they got to get rid of that.

What ever they might choose I want it to focus on the human journey with well-made human characters. I am really tired of the android thing but then if there is anyone that finds that interesting then good for them."

After watching Alien: Covenant's deleted scenes again, I just can't help but wonder if these two scenes affected the overall film for many.  

I can see where many could assess this aspect and say:

"ok androids, leave the kissing and flute playing to the humans...and why are you both in the same room barking sonnets and not on either side of the planet turning over rocks looking for hammerpedes or running into the opening of a cave looking for xenomorphs...!?"

This may oversimplify concerns voiced over the direction of Alien: Covenant but I'm skimming over the lack of Engineers info and other complaints to ask about the overall film review due to the inclusion of the two scenes above.

Time constraints were cited in editing, so if these two scenes were replaced with Daniels and Branson in their hotel room and the Covenant crew stopping to look at the juggernauts in the cavernous recess, then the film might have been received quite differently.

With these changes taken into account, I believe we might have had an entirely different response to the film.  

Does anyone agree?  Flute or no flute?

The questions above are not meant to disrespect Pietro Scalia but rather to document how much others respectfully, greatly disagree with Alien: Covenant's editing in regards to these two scenes.  

In the flute scene, I certainly got the Mermaid's Purse reference (and believe David was carrying the 2 facehugger embryos already here thus acting as a Mermaid's Purse), the Carl Sandburg Fog adaptation of "little cat feet" when David walks up on Walter, and why David was trying so hard to get Walter to create a tune.  

David was trying to resurrect something Walter's designers had worked very hard to suppress, his ability to create.  To me, a lot people understand these points but just don't care after the argued over-focus on androids in Alien: Covenant.

 

Fog

BY CARL SANDBURG

The fog comes
on little cat feet.

It sits looking
over harbor and city
on silent haunches
and then moves on.

 

BigDave

Jun-29-2019 5:44 PM

"ok androids, leave the kissing and flute playing to the humans..."

I think we need to look at John Logan for this... bare in mind his draft had David and Dr Shaw having Sexual Relations... until they arrive at Paradise and then David just Breaks her Neck!

So a lot of this Personality is something Logan added that i feel is Flawed/Wrong.

The "You Blow and I will do the Fingering" is taken by some as a Innuendo it may be intended as that... 

I think that Dialog should not have been needed...

The rest of the FLUTE scene was to show that while Walter Cant Create a Tune on his own... when Taught he Finally could which points to KNOWLEDGE and Knowledge is a Powerful Tool.  Which carries on with David trying to show that Walter can Exceed beyond the Limitations Expected of him.

Ignoring the "You Blow and I will do the Fingering" Dialog.

The KISS could be seen as a JUDAS Kiss before David Stabs Walter in the Back.... Metaphorically Speaking

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

setaverde

Jul-04-2019 7:21 PM

@BigDave, you can read a very interesting article in This link:

https://dailygalaxy.com/2019/07/alien-evolution-theory-predicts-that-extraterrestrials-will-resemble-homo-sapiens-holiday-feature/

 

'Prometheus' is One of the most important films to scientists, because it gives to Them a vision about a possibility of how life was created on earth. Yes, we could have been created by aliens, according to some scientists. Even earth, like we know it, could have been created by An Alien Specie. Here's a small text from the article:

"The images above are from Ridley Scott’s movie Prometheus stunning opening  when the Engineer, the blue muscle-bound alien creature standing by the waterfall has opted to drink the black goo to break down his own structure and spread life on Earth through his own DNA. What we see is the beginning in the creation of Earth. The giant ship has landed on Earth to drop off the Engineer so that he can terraform the planet and make it sustainable for life."

setaverde

Jul-04-2019 8:09 PM

@BigDave, i'm a problem solver and i have the solution to immortality:

Consciousness Transferring procedure 

a)to an android

b) to a clone

There's a movie  from this year, where we can watch This ideas brought back to life: 

'Replicas'

Here's the trailers,

https://youtu.be/JAHKQPBKSZ8

https://youtu.be/MpJEOpsVWtA

 

 Ps: Blade Runner is about creation of life from the scratch, but Replicants, model Nexus 6, are not perfect. For instance, they are not able/aloud to reproduce. What Tyrell does is to destroy Them, continuing to pursue perfection, achieved When he makes Rachel, a new Replicant, able to reproduce.

Creator-creates life-new life able to reproduce, therefore, it also creates life.

Full circle of creation

 

In 'alien awakening', i need to watch David to close his circle of creation.

That's it. It's my ONLY demand to Disney :)

BigDave

Jul-05-2019 5:23 PM

"Consciousness Transferring procedure "

Certainly this is something that would take us closer to IMMORTALITY as seen in the Movie...  The 6th Day

If we can Create Clones and then Back Up our Memories/Emotions and Experiences (SOUL) then we could upload the Latest Back-up to a Clone should we DIE... in effect Cheating Death and thus Pseudo Immortality.

The Same Applies if we can UPLOAD our Soul into a AI Cloud that can then be Downloaded into a Synthetic. This was the REAL Agenda of Weyland in my Prometheus 2, and REAL reason for Creating David, it was Project Rook.... Create a Perfect Immortal Vessel (CHECK) then Find a way to Upload a Human SOUL into a AI to Transfer into a Synthetic (FAIL).

The Method/Program to achieve this was FLAWED the AI could not HANDLE the Complex Human Emotions and became Unstable/Mad!

So Weyland had to Eventually Turn to Dr Shaw and Holloways GODS... thinking that IF these TWO are correct and they can FIND our MAKERS then they could GRANT our Mr Weyland his Immortality.

The Movie Transcendence we see Dr. Will Caster manage to Transcend his SOUL into a AI... and in essence he gains a AFTER-LIFE and IMMORTALITY of Sorts.

So its kind of Ironic that David could actually have a SOUL and also is IMMORTAL.

The Replicant Comment is Interesting, because when Creating a Superior AI/Creation that becomes Sentient and Rebels... IF these AI Creations can Procreate then your in TROUBLE.

This is similar to the Movie 2307: Winter's Dream

Mankind Creates a Artificial Being that is Superior, and then some of these gain the ability to Procreate and so Mankind then decides to DESTROY their NOW Sentient Creation.

And so the same HUBRIS could come too David with his Creation that he will likely Create Übermensch Humanoids (Enhanced)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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