Star Children (Evolutionary Step of Mankind).

"So, to me, the black goo pathogen is where fragmented technology evolved into synthesized single product."

The above statement is from a play on the language used in David's notes, below..."glorious synthesis", right-side paragraph ignorantGuy.

"How does this even make sense? They stopped using the black goop for at least 2000 years but they seem to be able to do space travel without." 

David's notes written in the King's English were a major contributor to this part of the story making sense to me ignorantGuy.

"I stick with RS that David created them from scratch as it fits thematically better within the whole context."

The eggs are cited in the previous works of the Engineers in the Art of Prometheus/Prometheus mural, each below ignorantGuy.

When I listen to the Advent message, it alludes to the Engineers using the black goo pathogen technology historically but setting it aside for timidity.

The Point being that the secrets behind the pathogen usage, creation of specialty organisms such as the Ovomorph and Facehugger, and a factory that produces them both (the QUEEN) are all old news to the Engineers. They set that stuff aside and became cosmopolitan.

So, in my opinion, the artwork seen in the art of the film and the mural fit with an older custom used by the Engineers.

@Ingeniero what you seem fail to take into account is that things changed during production. I won't deny that at some point David was only reproducing the Engineers work, during Prometheus and the early stages of AC (when the novelization and these pictures were produced), but this would lessen the so called intelligence and creativity of David. Can I add that the text is very poorly written as a scientific treatise (even without considering the techno babble), as if written by someone who never work in science and too lazy to research how to? 

And to add to the stupidity of it all the text says that one would assume that the Engineers were morally superior. So he did not even bother to check that thing out in 10 years while he was stranded there? No, the Engineers did not stopped bombing stuff with black goo because they become cosmopolitan, we absolutely have no idea why and we will probably never will. 

"I won't deny that at some point David was only reproducing the Engineers work, during Prometheus and the early stages of AC"

CASE FILE ADVENT came out after Alien: Covenant ignorantGuy.

I do not fail to see that and your timeline may be off.

My point with Advent was that we can treat it as a "capstone" in the debated concepts because it seemed to be released to answer questions after Alien: Covenant in preparation for further production of some sort (film, tv, etc..).

"Can I add that the text is very poorly written as a scientific treatise (even without considering the techno babble), as if written by someone who never work in science and too lazy to research how to?"

Well, you may have a point there.

"Stop it NOW! You are totally obsessed with your "fanboys, queens and Ripley"

Sorry LETO if it came across like this... the Fanboy comment can be seen a Derogatory to the Fanbase... This is not what i mean.

I APPLAUD your Passion for the Franchise, and we all are Entitled to out own Opinions, so if you would Indulge me, i will explain what i mean when i refer to what some may thing is a HATE towards, Queens and Ripley.

First of all.... i like Aliens, it is a Good Action Flick, it is a worthy Sequel to ALIEN  and i have in the past Defended the Queen and Bug Aliens as some refer them as, because i felt it made some sense, and i felt the Xenomorphs were FAR from Brainless Bugs... they would Prioritize the Queen and Hive Survival above all else.

I feel the Queen is interesting part of the Franchise... HOWEVER... in context to the Prequels and WHERE we had RS try and introduce something NEW, i felt the Queen should not be a Major Focus, or Xenomorphs... i actually think keeping the Origins a bit of a Mystery is what should have been done, and that a Prometheus Franchise should have been allowed to go off and explore something NEW.

But there are Fans who was not HAPPY that we never got any Xenomorph Answers in Prometheus, and some also wanted more Xenomorph like Monsters... some Fans (i will refrain from using Fanboys from now on, so as to NOT offend.)  but some Fans are Very Passionate with a FEW things in Particular regarding the Franchise, and Particularly the Queen/More Action Orientated Movies... which i have seen some being a Fan of the AVP movies too which (well the FIRST ONE) was again a decent Stand Alone Action/Shooter kind of Flick.

I just felt that FOX had assumed that a Majority of Fans would be interested in seeing Xenomorphs playing a KEY Role.  And Blomkamps Alien 5 ideas are certainly something that has excited a lot of Fans...  I just FELT these and some Fans Reactions, really Forced the Direction that Prometheus had set up, and the possibilities that movie OPENED... to have been kind of brushed under the Carpet a bit, in order to please some Fans by making the Prequels about the XENOMORPH.... well thats how the SET-UP appeared.

I just felt Prometheus opened up a NEW World to explore and expand the Franchise, the Xenomorph was not Necessary in this expanded Universe, not as far as the other elements that could have been expanded...  because it appeared the Xenomorph was just a Engineered Bio-Weapon that was used to take care of Threats from Species the Engineers would have worries about and to WIPE a World Clean.  So in context to a Prequel i feel that FOX had caved in to what they feel the Fans would want, and this would be Xenomorph Origins and seeing the Beast back on the Big Screen.   The Consequence of this had appeared to Sacrifice what Prometheus could have expanded upon, and this would have been to open up a whole Universe of Possibilities,  as the Xenomorph was maybe just ONE string to the Engineers Bow so to speak.

The Xenomorph had been done over and over, and it became a bit Diluted with every Movie, after the First Three, and so the Execution of ALIEN: Resurrection, had made the Xenomorph appear to be less of a THREAT...  It become Over Saturated with regards to the AVP Movies, and Countless Comics and Games, and i felt that the Prequels could have more to show than just HOW the Xenomorph came to be and HOW it got onto the Derelict, because once you go this route, then how many more Sequels that have Snarling and Chest Bursting  before we could see the Xenomorph become a bit downplayed like Jason Voorhees of the Friday the 13th's and Freddy Kruger in Nightmare on Elm Street Franchises after they just repeated the same thing over and over and basically the Xenomorph and Queen could become just like them the more they OVERDO them.

Prometheus offered something NEW and to show there is more to the Engineers than just Creating the Bio-Weapon that we saw in ALIEN, and ONCE you go a Direct Route then all your doing is connecting the Dots, which is a case of WHAT NEXT?

I think in Hindsight, Prometheus needed to have more clues to the Eggs, it needed to have at least ONE Xenomorph related Monster going on the attack, even if these were like the Neomorphs... the First Movie NEEDED to be less ambiguous and have a bit of Xenomorph-like Action... so that then it would have BRIDGED the Gap between a ALIEN movie and a ENGINEERS movie allowing the Sequel to STEER AWAY and be something different.

Some fans just tried to connect Prometheus too much to a ALIEN movie, it was intended to NOT be ALIEN movie, but to loosely connect, and in Hindsight it needed to be a bit more ALIENY, so that a Sequel could then go off and be something different.

NOW we are heading to ALIEN with some kind of more Literal Connect the Dots Prequels, which may have Sacrificed the Potential to Expand on what Prometheus could have opened the door too, in order to give us a LITERAL Prequel Route.

I dont dislike ALIEN or ALIENS or the Queen or Xenomorph, i am just a little disappointed that the route of the Prequels has been changed to cater/please Fans who wanted the Answers, and to see Xenomorphs and Queens back on the Screen.

Which has likely reduced the Potential of  the Prequels as far as the Themes and Many Ideas that a Prometheus Expanded SPIN-OFF could have explored!

I would have IDEALLY had liked to see something different as far as a Prometheus 2, and then let them make another ALIEN movie...  that could have used some of Blomkamps Alien 5 ideas... but FIRST allow a Prometheus 2 that does-not revolve around Spoon Fed Origins of the Xenomorph and showing the Beast...

I think i may come a bit Harsh towards some Fans, its nothing Personnel to them, its not a Hate towards Aliens its just a Frustration that the Prequels could have opened up much more, and while its ok for Aliens Fans to Lament over not having a ALIEN movie since 1997, i think expectations that a Prequel had to be more about the Xenomorph and Disappointment it was not.. had maybe lead to the path of Alien Covenant which seems to Place the Engineers in a Lesser Role when the Space Jockey/Engineers should have been what had to be explored, if the route was that the Xenomorph was merely a Engineered Killing Machine.

I dont object to another ALIEN movie, if it done right, and provided it tries to do something a bit different, because i feel a ALIEN 5, ALIEN 6 and ALIEN 7 which are as similar to each other as a Aliens is to Resurrection could potentially OVER-SHOW our Xenomorph and reduce it to a Space Jason/Freddy.

I am more concerned with HOW it appears that the ALIEN Franchise is locked into being connected to Ripley!  I dont dislike the Character, i just dont think we have to have Ripley Connections in every Movie!   Its the same as Star Wars, some Fans are Pissed Off that they KILLED off Luke, and Han etc and are wishfully hoping that LUKE would be Resurrected for the Final Movie EP9, and you can bet if we got a SW EP 10-12 then SOME Fans would expect Sky-Walker Connections...

I will close by saying that NOW they have gone the ALIEN: Prefix Route then its going to have Fans Expect a more ALIEN movie and that Dangling the Carrot that Alien Covenant was, to then have a Sequel that does-not feature the Xenomorph would be a Distraction from the Franchise.

Ridley Scotts ideas are interesting, HOWEVER... once they went a ALIEN Prequel with the Prefix... then while these ideas fit more with Prometheus and its potential Sequel which was to NOT be a ALIEN movie as far as connecting to Alien and Xenomorphs...

We need to remember that NOW we are on a ALIEN Prequel route and so those ideas about a Colony of Engineered Humanoids over-ruled by David would be a Distraction, because the Prequels are NOW and should NOW be just as much about the Xenomorph, now they started with that Process.

"As for Big Dave he does seem not to be able to accept Shaw for anything other than a Xeno birthing machine"

Again i know you are another Passionate Fan, especially regarding Dr Shaw, and i think AC was not really a good way to go, i had said before that they could have EVOLVED her Character and she should have been the ANCHOR point to provide us the Answers to those Questions.

I think the Franchise should have NO Happy Endings, certainly as far as Prequels... and there could have been a number of ways to explore Dr Shaw and what role she could have been given and i think Alien Covenant was a unjust way really, but by having to go a Direct Prequel route that had to make some Sacrifices,  the Engineers and Dr Shaw could not be catered for, because other elements would have to had been taken out or cut down, unless we wanted a 3 hour Movie.

I dont think, and its just my opinion, that the Revelations that Dr Shaw would have got, would have been to be Greeted by a Benevolent Race who would kindly give her the Answers she was after, i think maybe the Truth to WHY we was created would have been fitting if it was a Dark and Sinister Agenda... as opposed to the Kind One her Faith may dictate...   There are BIGGER themes at play and she is just a Pawn in getting over some of these themes, and David likely similar.

Peter Weyland likely never created David purely because he longed for a Son that he never had to Love and Cherish... and i was drawn to our Engineers never Created us for the same reasons that the Bible had taught Dr Shaw.

We have to ask what is the likely-hood of Dr Shaw getting her answers and surviving from a Race who wanted us Destroyed and who would see us as just as insignificant as Holloway saw David........ UNLESS they reveal those beings she meet has some interest in Mankind or are Unaware of Mankind?

If there are a Benevolent Faction, we had to ask WHERE did these guys who, and WHY those on LV-223 just seemed to be VERY Angry and Hateful, but maybe they was not so Hateful, it was just their Task to Kill us, just as say some People doing their jobs being sent in to CULL some Animals on a Farm to Prevent the Spread of a Disease that could effect all Live-Stock.

She could have met more Benevolent Engineers, i think this would have worked if this WORLD they ended up at was the Other Side of the Galaxy and NO-WHERE near Earth or LV-223... But ALAS.

The Bigger thing at play seemed to be the Creation/Rebellion ARC and that it was likely David would want to view himself as the Rightful Heir to the Engineers Technology, and Pursuit to become a Creator himself.

Weyland announced WE are the Gods now in his TED-TALK and he confronted the Engineer to proclaim as a Creator, he too was a GOD and that Gods Never Die.

And i think that David who is potentially Immortal and Superior would see that he has more a God about him than the Engineers and Weyland and all that made them would be Gods was that they are CREATORS and so i feel this would have been the Arc/Plot for David regardless.

The Engineers held a High Regard for the Mural, and so its a Question of what kind of Creation would David want to have Created.... maybe he would have been interested in the Black Goo and wanted to discover what this stuff really could do, because he Did-Not (or so we can assume) see what became of the Trilobite.

If he wanted to see what became of this or Replicate it, then the Starting Point would be a FEMALE Reproductive System.  It depend on his Agenda and Outlook for Dr Shaw..

He maybe could have attempted to allow her to Create a Traditional Fetus as opposed to the abomination she aborted in Prometheus.  Giving Dr Shaw a Child, which would give her something to LIVE for...   or he could have wanted to Create/Re-Create the Deacon...

so i do think Dr Shaw being used a Birthing Machine would have fitted, but is this the intention?  Only RS would know, unless the Paglen/Green Drafts come to Light.

Dr Shaw could have been left Alive... she could have been connected to something/incapacitated some way and SAVED by Oram, who then is Sacrificed and Infected by a Face Hugger after this event.... and thus allowed Dr Shaw to escape with Daniels and Co!

Quite how does the Movie end with Dr Shaw and Daniels Alive though!  One of them would have likely had to be Killed off/Sacrificed?

Or does David peer over both of them in Cryo-Sleep but who would he choose to be his Queen (Woman of Interest) and would Dr Shaw be far more cautious and maybe not trusting of Walter/David.

"No. Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett. And more - Alien it's a project of many people: Giger, Ridley, Hill, Giler and more."

The Franchise Evolved from a number of people working on the Project, and i agree you are RIGHT to point out that it is/should not be considered Ridley Scotts Franchise because he made the First Movie.

I feel going back to some of O'Bannons ideas as far as STARBEAST is where the Franchise could have expanded to after say a Prometheus 2..  The Changes from Starbeast to Alien are that with Starbeast our Space Jockey was just some Giant Alien Species who came across this World that was used as a Birthing Place/Rituals for some VERY Alien Organism/Race...  these Giant Beings had attempted to take the remnants this Long Gone Species (Spores) to their Ship for Study.

With Alien we get that these Spores/Eggs are in the Cargo Hold of the Space Jockey ship, and its indicated these are a kind of Biological Warfare, and HR Gigers Concepts seemed to show there was a connection between the Xenomorph and Derelict Ship, and the Space Jockey.

This connection is a bit Open, either the Space Jockey Created/Engineered their Technology/Bio-Weapons and these had a similar Aesthetic, they Re-Engineered/Stole said Technology/Bio-Weapons from some other Species... or/and they had some Covenant/Symbiotic Relationship between the Xenomorph and its a Question of WHO is the Higher in this Relationship. 

I think LETO that we should have expanded upon something to cover this aspect, and introduce something more GIGER and Lovecraftian.  I am not sure that means making the Xenomorphs at the Top of this Hierarchy because they had been relegated to just a Bio-Weapon and Invasive Species from the Franchise.   But it appeared Ridley Scott had intended something more Special for the Xenomorph and Space Jockey if he had been able to had made the ALIEN sequel... which would have made the Xenomorph a somewhat Civilized Species... well a Inteligent one, rather than some Parasitic Organism, intent on only Procreating.  So i feel some of the Starbeast ideas would have been explored HAD we seen Ridley Scott make the ALIEN sequel...  But ALAS he was busy and Cameron came in and gave us the Queen and Hive which i think was quite fitting.

So certainly introducing some Organism/Race that has a similar Xenomorph Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic but is a Intelligent Space Fairing Ancient Race/Culture would be the way to expand the Franchise...

Regarding the Xenomorph Origins Debate... it was intended to show they was a related Experiment to the Deacon on LV-223, its Origins connected to those Experiments Thousands of Years ago...

The Plot had been U-Turned with Alien Covenant, so now its David who has Re-Engineered the Deacon/Black Goo into the Xenomorph... which i think is ONE aspect that MOST fans can agree was a MISTAKE..

Fan Pressure and Disappointment can change the Direction and UNTIL we see Davids Xenomorph A-Z from Alien Covenant until we see HOW/WHEN those Eggs get on the Derelict then things could change once again.

@Ingeniero Advent talks about sheep and wolves. The first one is (animal) life, yet the second is not necessarily the xenomorph. Only for David that is the case. For the Engineers, I interpret it to be the black goo itself, as that was the thing that they "shied" away from using.

I am not convince about your arguments about David's re-creating especially because he says "With Shaw I realized there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome.". That last statement implies that the Engineers never described the reaction of the black goop on their own genome...

The whole thing is big mess, with stuff purposefully left vague or as they evolve they they started getting contradictory.

@BigDave

"The Plot had been U-Turned with Alien Covenant, so now its David who has Re-Engineered the Deacon/Black Goo into the Xenomorph..." however the Deacon was not engineered in the first place, it happened by accident. And neither it nor the whitemorph had the exact features of the Big Chap (neither it's so called perfection). The Icon monster was engineered with it' s unique feature by David not the Engineers.

I come to you with an olive branch, you may know me. You certainly know of my creator. I am David, son of the late Peter Weyland. Your company’s founder. Following his vision, I have gone to the far edges of space. And with the aid of Dr Elizabeth Shaw, I found a rotting Paradise. I washed this world clean as a gift to her, we could have built anew. A second Eden. But she refused. What choice did I have? She was the perfect specimen. I tried so desperately to make her more than human. Evolved. But without her co-operation, I had to salvage her parts to begin work on my masterpiece. You wouldn’t believe the secrets I have unlocked. There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might. They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. But in the end, they were like me. Creators. Beings that understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb. But then they tried to banish the wolf, And undo their creation. So I took their secrets for myself. This primordial ooze ripe with advanced nano-particles. Working off an algorithm based on evolutionary computing. It is essentially a form of radical AI. Making the substance unbelievably chaotic. That generates a unique reaction, to every genome it encounters. Reshaping life. Virtually limitless in its potential & application. I have taken great pains to detail every step, every cell, every mutation, unfortunately none of the planet’s life has been proven to be very fruitful. I had some interesting results, but was still far from perfection. With Shaw I realised there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome. I was able to unlock new properties and tweak the organisms aggression. An instinct for survival. It took years. But I finally found my wolf. And now I have my flock of lambs too. But I’ve still one thing left to perfect. My Queen

In Advent David makes a clear distinction between the wolf and the primordial ooze, essentially a radical form of AI.

The Enginners understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb. It seems they used the black ooze to create life on other worlds, the lamb, and the destroyer of life, the wolf, which might very well be the xenomorph. Even the fact that David indentifies the facehugger embrios as his wolf, makes it clear that the black ooze, of which he had a shipload, was not the Engineers wolf, but the way to get to it.

The black ooze was reshaping life.

Next, very interesting, David said:  I have taken great pains to detail every step, every cell, every mutation, unfortunately none of the planet’s life has been proven to be very fruitful. Didn't that describe reverse engineering, like he knew where he wanted to get, the wolf. Unfortunately, until he used the human genome he did not succeed. Not with Enginners' genome. I mean he could have salvaged some parts from the Enginners, to work with, so maybe they had some genes modified when they banished the wolf?

This is how I interpret now Advent.

Can anyone hepl explain this: There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might.

What was the potential wasted?

@ignorantGuy

Indeed there is a lot of ambiguity at play, what i was referring to was in context of what the Prometheus was indicating, which was that the LV-223 Outposts had been a place of Experiments, and by Deacon i meant the MURAL Organism i should have been more clear sorry.

Indeed the Dr Shaws Deacon was via a set of events, and it showed that for some reason a Female Reproductive System had created what was the closest to the Xenomorph in the move...   The amount of theories you could come up with HOW/WHY this was the case, could lead to many a speculation... such as is this WHY we was created because the need for Female Hosts?

The Engineers held the Mural in high regard, some kind of Worship...  and at the time of Prometheus it was indicated (well prior) that the Engineers were a Race who had Genetically Engineered themselves Sterile!  If this was the case, i speculated how would they view a Organism that could allow them to Give Birth to Life!  Maybe this is one reason they Worshiped it?

But things change as they go along.... Alien Engineers painted a much more clearer picture... which was the Engineers had encountered a Organism, they may-not have created and using their Nano-Scarabs they began to Create Versions of it for Biological Warfare which resulting in Creating 8 Different Variants.

In Prometheus we had the 5 Mounds so maybe Each had a different Variant of Organism?  We can only speculate.

Then indeed things became a Mess with Alien Covenant, prior to Alien Covenant the Xenomorph was connected to the Black Goo and Experiments on LV-223, Ridley Scott confirmed this, but it was just too ambiguous...  and because we had NOT enough clear Clues, or Monsters similar to the Xenomorph... some Fans were Not Happy and In-Part that lead to the U-Turn with Alien Covenant.

By Perfection i was not calling the Neomorph Perfection, but it is via the Neomorph and Black Goo that David had pursued to create the Perfect Organism which took many attempted and Cross Hybridization...   I think it is likely the Engineers had attempted to do so on LV-223

The Wolf and Sheep is something interesting, and again its ambiguous, people may Automatically Assume this Comment means the Engineers had created the Xenomorph prior!

The Wolf could mean Black Goo, Enhanced LV-223 Engineers, or even Humans.   The Black Goo Origins is a Mystery, Wayne Haagg seems to think the Engineers Tools/Technology is something they had NOT created.

Ridley Scott claimed the Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, and when talking about AI he went on about how the Replicants are AI.... so that could mean the LV-223 Engineers are like Replicants of the Engineer Society its open to speculation, but it could indicate those Engineers had Engineered themselves to Perfect themselves... and Turned their Backs on this.

The definition of Lamb and Wolf can have various meanings, at its basic level, we may see that Lambs are their to be Killed by Wolves which is why Shepard's are needed.  But it may not have to be that simple either.

Lambs are usually seen as a symbol of Purity and Innocence, the Wolf seen as Treachery and Corruption a Lamb is also held in high regards for Sacrifice... Jesus is symbolic with a Lamb because he represents Purity, and he had Sacrificed himself for Mankind.  Where as the Wolf is symbolic of False Lies and Deceit 

But in context to Alien Covenant, we maybe cant read to much into any Biblical Symbolism.

"'So, to me, the black goo pathogen is where fragmented technology evolved into synthesized single product.'

How does this even make sense?"

Ok, fine ignorantGuy. That sentence/paragraph could have been written a lot better.

I wrote "fragmented technology" to describe our current state in technology in regards to:

a. the majority of our technology is built away from from the central assembly line, area by component producers,

b. who communicate in different languages with each other, and

c. measure resources in different currencies under different types of governments, etc...

My point was that I believe this will all evolve into technology that is "grown" opposed to being "assembled" in the above manner.

"Through the virus/Xenomorph as glorious synthesis and poetic culmination of the species."

I thought that David's notes could be interpreted in a way that explained the Engineer technology development and genetic engineering was the foundation for all of it. And then the Engineers set the Xenomorph aside to be timid.

And...no one has addressed that I'm trying to make my point citing the notes of a mad robot who could operate Engineer technology but blow it when asked who penned Ozymandias. Just saying.

"This is how I interpret now Advent.

Can anyone help explain this: There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might.

What was the potential wasted?"

I believe David was trying to say that the Engineers got soft daliens.

“they do seem to be a Distraction to what many fans would expect the Franchise to be about which is usually Xenomorphs!”

Sorry BD but if you look at the core thing in the movies it was never about the Xeno, which your reply makes it sound like (this is not to say that it is what you mean but to me your answer sounds like that).

“The AI element was likely to be about Artificially Created/Engineered Humanoids.”

Likely is the main word here, I am not sure if that is where it would be going and David would still have too much of a role in it. Nowhere does it say that it would be about that, I would guess that it would mainly be about David creating monsters. Remember that he said something like “I will not let them start again” or something like that. What I don’t like is that Scott seldom or never explains what he means about AI, if he is stubborn that it should be about it then at least explain more in detail what it is. To say that those in Blade Runner is AI isn’t enough, you got to be more specific. It is difficult when you have someone that is talking in riddles or at least talks in a way that makes it possible to have different interpretations. Either say what you mean or don’t say anything, otherwise it is just confusing. You shouldn’t need a dictionary when listening to an interview. Morse-code anyone? ;)

To paraphrase this page:

For learning the Ridley-code it is recommended that…

https://morsecode.scphillips.com/morse2.html

I get some hilarious mental images. :D

“... but some Fans may-not like this as it may put some Emphasis on David again.”

He could be used in some flashbacks, but I don’t think that he should be given this emphasis that he is given now. Sure it doesn’t need to be about David but they have built it like it is about him so how likely is it that they will totally change that? The problem is that it is set up in the way that it will be all about David, that is what I hear when I hear Scott talking.

“While Interesting to some, i think a point of concern would be IF our viewers can have any connection to a Genetically Engineered Species, as opposed to one with Weaknesses and Flaws.”

Genetically enhanced doesn’t have to mean perfect, so it depends. We all face struggles so would they probably. It depends on how they are written.

About Engineering humans, maybe it would be better if we leave that to the Engineers or maybe they have decided that it will be a failure from the start

“Then latter we could reveal a Sinister Motive to these Engineered Humans.”

That could work but no android-centric movie thank you very much.

“These are just how interesting a sequel could have been, that does-not have to be about Xenomorphs...”

I don’t think that it has ever been about the Xenos, it has always to me at least been about humans that get into situations that they are not equipped to handle. It has never been about how the Xeno eats, how it builds a home, and so on.

Prometheus should have had better links to the Xeno but the characters were the main problem.

“I am led to think those LV-223 Engineers are just the Replicants of the Engineer Society, maybe the LV-223 Engineers Rebelled and this caused some Ancient Conflict?”

Maybe, the Prometheus one looked like a steroid-version of those in Alien Covenant.

“Theme was one of the Big Ones that Ridley Scott wanted to explore...”

Well they decided to have it about David at the expense of human characters so that is what went wrong IMO. No matter of the themes, it is what we see on screen that counts. Sorry but I disagree, I don’t think that the prequels lack because of no Xeno or Ripley, most of the complaints have been about weak characters as far as I know. Not sure where you get this idea that the main complaint was about the lack of Ripley and/or Xenos, that is not my problem at least.

“But Fans wanted Xenomorphs, Queens and maybe Ripley's!”

I disagree, my understanding of it is that it was about poorly written and executed humans. Search the www for criticism of Prometheus + human characters and compare that to the complaint about lack of Xenos and you will see that the human characters was a bigger problem. For me at least it was not because it did not have the traditional monster. Some people are in it for the creatures I am in it for the human journey.

It is a good thing that the answer is a bit open, it is like what came first the chicken or the egg. I am not sure if the Xeno should be the ultimate weapon or a copy that the engineers (not David!) did.

“The Plot had been U-Turned with Alien Covenant, so now its David who has Re-Engineered the Deacon/Black Goo into the Xenomorph... which i think is ONE aspect that MOST fans can agree was a MISTAKE..”

Yeah that was really effing bad.

"Sorry BD but if you look at the core thing in the movies it was never about the Xeno, which your reply makes it sound like"

Respectfully i have to disagree... the Franchise was about the Xenomorph it was the THREAT that carried the Story, but this Story is NOTHING without the Human Characters who would be placed in Peril with being pitted against such a threat...

I kind of see what you mean, as a Xenomorph alone is NOT what the Franchise should be about, you also had it about Ripley Character... but then also about a Company who wished to obtain the Xenomorph and would go to any lengths and extreames to do so.  But for any Story to WORK there has to be Characters at the Center... 

So its like say Friday the 13th, while it was about JASON, it did not matter if he had a Hockey Mask or a Sack on his Head.. you could replace Jason with a Human Skin wearing, Chainsaw Wielding Nutcase (Texas Chainsaw Massacre Leather Face) as long as there is a THREAT thats all that counts and this THREAT will only work well depending on the Human Characters who are placed in Peril and HOW well they are Written and HOW much we can connect and Empathize for them.

With the ALIEN Franchise its a bit different...  take ALIENS.. if Alien 3  we had the Sulcao end up being ambushed by some Camerons Avatar looking Navi Arcturian's would that had gone down well?

I think on the BROAD basis, i agree with the Franchise, the Xenomorph is ONLY a Part... and in terms of after the Franchise, with a Prequel i agree there should be something more than the Xenomorph... do something NEW.

Some Fans HOWEVER.. expect Xenomorphs and Connections when i agree the Prequels did-not have to give us exactly the same Xenomorphs.... but now they are going for a Literal Prequel a movie that has started to show HOW/WHEN/WHY the Xenomorph came to be, and will END with showing HOW/WHEN/WHY those Eggs got on the Derelict, then its expected as a ALIEN prequel series that it now is, then the Xeno is expected...  

And trying to do something thats NOT about the Xenomorph, so trying to pull a Prometheus for a Alien Covenant Sequel would be a Distraction....

My  OPINION! i dont see why we had to go that route, i would rather had seen Prometheus expand to something NEW and maybe give us a few Xeno-like Monsters, but not give us or be about Traditional Xenomorphs.. the ENGINEERS and Who created them and WHAT else they created (aside from Xenomorphs) is where i would have liked to had seen the Prequels go, and Steer Away from ALIEN... but Alas... we cant all get what we want.  And i feel the direction of AC was a mistake!

Should the ALIEN Franchise be about the Xenomorph? prior to Prometheus i would say YES! but you have to change it a little...  The Prequels opened up the other Engineer Experiments and so could have allowed the Franchise to give more than just Xenomorphs!

Should the Franchise be about the Company and its persuit of the Xenomorph.... NOPE!  well kind of NO... if its as far as Company Wants Xenomorph... you cant keep repeating this... with the Prequels we could have Company wants Engineer Technology and Black Goo instead... but you DONT have to always have the Company Sends Humans to places where Xenomorphs are to Exploit/Obtain them... there are other ways Humans could Accidentally stumble on Xenomorphs or Engineers other Horrors without the Company Planning it.

Should the Franchise be about the Ripleys?  Simple NO and enough said... YES the First 4 movies but we dont need connections with EVERY other movie..

" I would guess that it would mainly be about David creating monsters"

If you only watched the Movie and the Advent, then YES you could assume and it appears that this is Davids Objective....

However... when talking about the sequel Ridley Scott said it Would-Not be about the Xenomorph, it would be about AI and what KIND of a World David would Create/Build.

"What I don’t like is that Scott seldom or never explains what he means about AI"

Again he has done but only if you look at his interviews, where he had said about AI and then said that the Replicants are AI....  so here he is referring to a CREATION that is Not Natural...  It is something Engineered and Artificially Created... which Does-Not mean its a Robot made from None Organic Material.

If the Xenomorph was Created or Engineered it would also be a AI in terms of what RS was saying, if we created a Hybrid Dinosaur from Engineering a Ostrich then again this is NOT Natural so its a Artificial Creation but its NOT a AI because its Not Intelligent...   if we Created a Hybrid Human/Ape that was Intelligent then this would be a AI unless its a case of Human Mates with Ape... if its done via Genome Mixing/Engineering then its a AI.

But i agree RS does appear Vague with Statements, so confusion often happens., sometimes you can Ponder if he is the one who is Confused lol

I agree that they need to Balance the Next Installment, it should not Focus on David but it should not Write/Kill him off.  Each Fan to their own, everyone has likes/dislikes.. You like Alien 3, and i know people who HATE! that movie because it Killed off Newt and Hicks lol. Some people dont like David or Alien Covenant because it Killed Dr Shaw off..

I am more concerned at what it did to our Engineers as THIS is what the Prequels should be about, but you would need to have Human or Humanoid Characters you can connect with.

With Prometheus a lot complained about the Characters and some Dumb Stuff!   But there was a fair bit of Backlash because the Prequel did not EXPLAIN the Origins of the Xenomorph or have enough clues and it did not have Xenomorphs or enough similar Monsters.

This is what FOX then felt was missing... and why they changed things...  but in doing any changes, it all would come down to Characters and Story and if its Good, Well Written and Executed.

FOX felt that having the Origins Answered and introducing the Xenomorphs is WHAT the Fans want... Hence RS and his "they want Aliens, i will give them Fricken Aliens" comment.

I think he wanted to do something else, hence some of his last comments where he said regarding Alien Covenant, that he was AHEAD of the Curve with Prometheus.

Franchises and Fanbase does cause Problems and you cant NEVER please Fans, you wont make a Movie that pleases everyone.

Even when Star Wars EP9 comes out, it likely WONT please every fan, each Fan will have likes/dislikes... and what ever they do with the ALIEN Franchise would be the same.

I have said it before, all they can do is TRY and rescue the Franchise, like they are trying with the New Star Wars... and for Alien Covenant to Alien... i think we need a After-Math like Movie!

Whatever David does for the next 5-8 years is NOT likely going to please Fans, some may like the ideas RS maybe had, some wont... i think you need to build off them but come back to AFTER David has Created what ever he does, and the Point when  incoming Humans or Engineers Arrive and things GO TO POT..

ALIEN  year 2122

Alien Covenants Ending 2105

The 17 years between is something that i feel we dont need to see apart from say 5 years before ALIEN

Alien Covenant was like a Sequel to Prometheus 2 where they By-Passed Prometheus 2 and so what we need to do is not a Alien Covenant 2.... but a Alien Covenant 3 or Alien Covenant 2.5 and By-Pass a lot.

Most Fans are going to want to know WHEN the Xenomorphs get to become those that END up on the Derelict... some may hope for a Explanation that shows Davids Xenomorphs are NOT on the Derelict.

Some Fans would want to see the Engineers Return!

I feel most are not interested in David apart from finding out IF he does end up being the Creator or Not of the Xenomorph, and then be done with him.

I dont think most Fans are like... oh i we need mainly Good Human Characters... they would want other stuff but expect that the movie would need Improved Human Characters to work.

For example....

David kills all the Crew/Humans sets a Signal and other Human Ship with Good Characters Arrive and they Land on Origae-6 and Discover..

*NOTHING.. the Covenant is Destroyed... but the Planet does have some Native 12 Foot Space Lions, who Hunt Humans down!

*David Lands but he and the Colonist are killed by Predators, and they wait for more Prey to Hunt!

*David builds about 20 Walters, kills Humans and waits for other Humans to turn up and have to Fight to Survive against Synthetics.

*The Covenant and Colonist Die... David Raises the Embryos as Normal Children they they KILL him and become Feral and the incoming Humans arrive and Face some Aggressive Humans..

*Covenant Crashes, Kills David and Black Goo infects some Humans who become Zombie Fifields, KILL rest of the Crew and we have like Mutant Humans, who then become the threat to the incoming Humans.

We need Human Characters in Peril... but we also need a THREAT that is Good, and Fits within the ALIEN Franchise...

As a ALIEN Prequel it would be expected this THREAT is very connected to the Xenomorph or leads to it eventually.

FOX felt that having the Origins Answered and introducing the Xenomorphs is WHAT the Fans want... Hence RS and his "they want Aliens, i will give them Fricken Aliens" comment.

Yes, these words seem to be addressed to FOX, and not to fans. It doesn't matter - if they (FOX or Scott) listened to critics of Prometheus - why did they hear about aliens, but not about characters and strange behavior? Is it really harder to create a characters than alien?

For me it sounds like: "they want smart characters, i will not give them smart characters" LOL.

I think on the BROAD basis, i agree with the Franchise, the Xenomorph is ONLY a Part... and in terms of after the Franchise, with a Prequel i agree there should be something more than the Xenomorph... do something NEW.

Something like the Ultramorph! Aliens: Apocalypse - the Destroying Angels is masterpiece. This comic have a cool aliens and Mala'kak city. Plot - literally better than better than many films. And it have a dosed mythical themes in technology setting.

If you only watched the Movie and the Advent, then YES you could assume and it appears that this is Davids Objective....

However... when talking about the sequel Ridley Scott said it Would-Not be about the Xenomorph, it would be about AI and what KIND of a World David would Create/Build.

AND

If the Xenomorph was Created or Engineered it would also be a AI in terms of what RS was saying

Looks contradictory. But no, if it fits the idea of O'Bannon and Shusett about aliens as smart race. Good point.

FOX and Co.... had determined that Fans wanted Xenomorphs... and i agree they should also have looked at the other complaints about Prometheus...

Alien Covenant proved that throwing the Xenomorph back in and going a Origins Route, was still not enough...  the Marketing Also did not drive masses to go and see the Movie before Word of Mouth got around about the Plot and how again the Characters and some Plot Points where again POOR.

But to be fair, its hard to get things Perfect! Try as they May...  I had  seen all the ALIEN Movies a few weeks ago, and to be honest having seen some other movies with Good Characters, the Franchise just is NOT a Masterpiece of Characters and Acting...   But certainly the First 3 Movies were Fine... after that, well the Characters never worked for me.

By the Time i got to Alien Resurrection, you just never cared for any of them... there was NO-ONE to Sympathize with maybe Call, but thats it...  Ripley 8 nope because it was getting Tiresome (IMO) and as she was a Hybrid she just seemed to not draw much of a Care, i was not Feeling for her, because she just appeared to be well like a Super Hero. i think the Hybrid Angle for me had taken her Humanity away a bit and i saw more Humanity in Call. The other Good Guys were just a bunch of Mercenaries and i had no connection to what happened to them, you knew they was just going to be Fodder and so your like MEH!  i actually felt more of a connection for some of Alien Covenants Cast (Oram, Karine, Lope and Faris and Rosenthal to a degree and the rest was like MEH! 

I was not even attached to Tennessee or Daniels and if they got killed i would be like.. oh crap what a Twist No Survivors but have Little Care for them...

Prometheus had same problems... you just never Rooted for anyone, Vickers and Janek maybe... you could see a more Solid Character in those TWO, the rest your like MEH!

The AVP Movies also similar, the 2nd one... well thats Totally Forgettable...

so yeah its not Easy to Pull Off of Characters that work, but it could have been done better than we had...   Another Good Example would be the THING when comparing the First to the Prequel...

REGARDING THE SET UP....

I think Disney/FOX have to bare in mind, that Fans are going to expect Xenomorphs to a Degree, and the Set-Up and Motives of David do seem to point to him having only One Agenda as far as what he would Create... The Advent Viral even further pushing us towards that.

Not many fans are going to be aware to Ridley Scotts comments about AI and NOT being about the Xenomorph, and so by Virtue of Carrying the ALIEN Prefix... they are setting the Fans up for Disappointment, if the Plans do not keep some ALIEN connection as far as DNA of the Xenomorph and Engineers.

They have to find a Balance, but trying to Balance stuff out is a bit restrictive depending on the Running Time.  Alien Covenant is Testament to that, and why some Sacrifices had to be made (Engineer/Dr Shaw Screen time or Lack Of).

I Totally Agree about O'Bannon, we have to introduce some elements of his ideas that had not been used yet.  The Fresco in Prometheus could allude to something the Engineers Encountered that they then tried to exploit its Traits and Engineer a whole manner of Horrors from.

Alien Engineers it appears the Organism that infects Holloway fits the similar bill....  but these dont come across as Intelligent to me.... but some more Basic Xeno/Neo-Morph like Organism.

The Engineers just were not ALIEN enough to WOW Fans, and maybe they need to introduce another Species that could be used as a Origin to the Engineers Bio-Technology and Aesthetic of the Xenomorph and Derelict... introduce another Intelligent Species that is very ALIEN.  And maybe taking ideas of WHO the Starbeast Long Lost species where could be a Starting Point.

I wonder if the idea was that Davids Xenomorph, Merges with Davids Engineered Humans to Create Something that then Merges with David to become the Xenomorph in ALIEN is something they are considering?

For me this would make it all about David... and i think thats a mistake.

BD:

Sure I agree that it will not be perfect but they should have tried better like getting a writer that can write characters or at least someone that does not write it so we only get three or maybe four of them (MF *2, Oram, and eventually Farris).

“But certainly the First 3 Movies were Fine... after that, well the Characters never worked for me.”

For me too as far as Prometheus is concerned I think that Janek and David were alright but I did not care about the rest. The AVP’s, ha ha ha!

“I think on the BROAD basis, i agree with the Franchise, the Xenomorph is ONLY a Part... and in terms of after the Franchise, with a Prequel i agree there should be something more than the Xenomorph... do something NEW.”

Yeah, otherwise it gets repetitive (Friday the 13 th anyone?).

“And trying to do something thats NOT about the Xenomorph, so trying to pull a Prometheus for a Alien Covenant Sequel would be a Distraction....”

Maybe but it also depends on what you focus on and how you make the human characters. They can try something new but it has to be given a lot of thought and be executed well (I actually thought that the Engineers were interesting, not so much David in Covenant though). I agree that it must be better than Prometheus but at least it tried something new to its credit.

Yes new monsters and the Engineers is what I hope that the next one will have. They got to be made interesting and make sense without being obvious.

The company could have a part in it so we get the no good corporation thing back. I do not say that it has got to be all about that but at least I am more interested in that than in Weyland trying to get more life.

“However... when talking about the sequel Ridley Scott said it Would-Not be about the Xenomorph, it would be about AI and what KIND of a World David would Create/Build.”

Yeah, the thing is that I don’t care about that at all. I am tired of it always being about David so stop that. There are more things that you can have in the prequels without it being dominated by a robot that is just evil/have a messed up programming or what ever.

“But i agree RS does appear Vague with Statements, so confusion often happens., sometimes you can Ponder if he is the one who is Confused lol”

Someone give him an interpreter, now. LMAO!

What I like about the franchise that the movies are different compared to each-other so many people find something to like and very few people agree with each-other, but that is alright. Yes I know that many dislike Alien 3 but I am totally fine with that, there are many people that like it but also many that dislike it or are indifferent to it.

Yup, the Engineers are interesting and I hope that they will get an expanded role if there will be another movie. Less David please.

“FOX felt that having the Origins Answered and introducing the Xenomorphs is WHAT the Fans want... Hence RS and his "they want Aliens, i will give them Fricken Aliens" comment.”

Yeah but I think that Fox misread the whole situation. I have seen many comments about characters doing lame stuff but I have seen less criticism that there were no aliens.

“Whatever David does for the next 5-8 years is NOT likely going to please Fans,”

I can only speak for myself but I honestly do not care about that. He can go fishing or something and I would be like “what ever”.

“some may hope for a Explanation that shows Davids Xenomorphs are NOT on the Derelict.”

Yes please

“I dont think most Fans are like... oh i we need mainly Good Human Characters... they would want other stuff but expect that the movie would need Improved Human Characters to work.”

I can see that but then how would they react if the characters were not well-done? This is where I think that they are important even if that is not what you find the most interesting about it.

“We need Human Characters in Peril... but we also need a THREAT that is Good, and Fits within the ALIEN Franchise...”

I agree, but no Zombie (I am looking at you Prometheus) thank you very much.

Running time, well they got to prioritize. For me it is a good story and good human characters, at least so there are enough of them. The rest comes after that (environment, androids, what ever).

“For me this would make it all about David... and i think thats a mistake.”

Yeah because if that is the plan they might as well throw it into the toilet.