Alien: Exodus

Thanks for those who have invested the Time in Reading that lot ;)

I know such a Plot may not sit well with many, my Prometheus 2/3 ideas i worked on featured AI a bit and my Sequel ideas to Alien Covenant which i had shared a little last year, also revolved around AI and also similar, very very similar ideas to what i proposed above...  These are my interpretations of RS comments, they are also what for the most part my ideas for a sequel was...

I am not suggesting this is what we was going to get, or that maybe myself and RS are on the Same Page of Thinking.. but maybe pretty close.

I do think that Xenomorphs and Engineers would play a larger role in the 4th Prequel. But make a appearance in the 3rd Act of the Covenant Sequel.

PS... can you spot how many Engineer Ships arrive at Origae-6 and what kind of Apocalypse they would bring!

A good and interesting read. Many years ago RS started his career in advertising and one of the first stars he worked with was David Bowie. For some reason after reading through, I recall the lyrics of David Bowie's Oh! You Pretty Things. "Gotta make way for the homo superior".

I think it is very apt.

Oh! you pretty things with lyrics

BigDave

this is an intriguing and fascinating idea: to explore the possibility of what happens when David actually gifts humanity the goals his creator was seeking. What if he gifts the humans the ability to live more or less forever and therefore rids humanity from lots of their vices and doesn't look upon it as a lost cause.

How would such children of David be looked upon by the organic-classic children of the Engineers? I am sure there would be a lot of envy. And, the snowflake engineers would be probably offended, so to speak, for many reasons(just look what they preach wrt to procreation). This is a perfect setup to ponder and explore the suspense of a thought experiment that comes from the fact that when people are asked if they would like to live forever a lot would say - yay, and there would be alot of people, I assume, religious fundamentalists who would oppose such people. Why? Because they would instantly become totally useless, powerless and obsolete and retrospectively made look like idiots.

This is the classical setup of ignorance vs knowledge, technology vs archaism, disruption vs holding on to long rooted traditions. This topic, given a proper budget (a bit more than what Ridley is usually given, which is almost always less than $100m) could make a quality movie. But I am not sure it will work out economically - most of the market makers, ie, teens are not keen on such movies(just look at the tanking of BR2049 in the boxoffice). Besides, the Alien franchise is a diminishing proposition, economically.(especially, compared to SW, Pirates of the Caribbean, GoT and many others. Btw did you notice a shift to such thematic series from standalone movies? It has been around for many years now, to notice it :) ). I am afraid, all of the above entails a rather grim outlook. But no worries, most of the people who appreciate the beauty of Ridley's works are at that tender age where in a little bit it won't matter at all to them, sadly.(if only I was given that pill that Peter Weyland was looking for)...

Anyways, BigDave, thanks for one of the better threads on here for a long time. Makes me wonder why so many speculations about what's next wrt to Alien movies. Is it the fact that there is this unspoken yet widely accepted view that we are done with the series and simply because there has not been such an announcement(of funeral) from Disney/Fox are daydreaming perhaps nostalgically?

How true was Weyland, huh? All this, all this art, beauty is utterly meaningless in the face of the single most important question :) (sorry for imprecise and rather interpretive quote)

Plot will better if David focused on creating and developing humans and almost abandoned his experiments with xenomorphs. Then some of the "new people" find his secret laboratory → find ovomorphs → get facehuggered → David don't know about this → and then xenomorph turns David's colony into the bloody hell.

After all Engineers arrived on Origae-6 and find dead place. They are attacked by xenomrophs. Some Engineers die, but the last kills xenomorphs and put ovomorphs on the ship. They go to LV-223, but the pilot get facehuggered and ship crash on LV-426. Thats all.

Indeed Batchpool that song does pick up on a Good Point,its something to ponder and something that has been covered in various Sci-Fi TV/Movies,  which is at what point would we be surpassed by either our own Creation, our own attempts at Self-Evolution.   There is the Threat of what happens when we play GOD and tamper with what is Natural with our Scientific Advancements.

Mankind has evolved over the years, but most of this is down to knowledge and technology.  It is some of the Evolutionary Advantages that we had over say other Homo Species including the Neanderthals that we could adapt and change to a every changing World.  Genetically we can argue we have not changed much for Tens of Thousands of years.  It is our Brains and Intelligence and the passing down of learned Knowledge and means to record this that allows us to Progress.  Left Naturally we cant really see our Race Genetically Evolve over the next Few Thousand Years..  But Scientifically through every increasing knowledge and advancements and passing on of knowledge i think its fair to say the POTENTIAL for Genetic Evolution is there via Artificial Means.

This fits very well with Peter Weyland and his Achievements, where he had all but Cured Cancer and i think if we are allowed to Throw Out the Moral Compass we could intervene and manipulate Embryos so that Children Born will be free from Genetic Defects, we could Cure many kinds of Diseases i think if we are allowed great investment and time and to forget the Moral Implications then in 50-100 years a lot of the World Aliments could be a thing of the past, were we would LIVE much longer and its only the Toxins we put in our body by out choices as far as Food/Drink, Recreational Habits and Environmental Pollution and Famine that would reduce our Biological Clock.

If we even further throw out the Moral Compass then its possible that we could Engineer Perfect Humans well attempt to, we could ONE day Program the Genome of ourselves to gain/turn on desirable  traits.   Knowledge and Practice gets you so far in LIFE but not every Human that is Born could Train to Match or Surpass the Speeds of say Usain Bolt and if we Genetically Modify Embryos we could incorporate traits that would allow for those Humans to be more Taller, Physically Fitter, Faster, Stronger, more Intelligent  but even so it is then down to the upbringing and training/knowledge that allows these Gifted Enhanced Humans to take advantage of their Genetic Advantages.

There is the Potential Real World Danger if you Engineer Humans who have the Natural Potential to be say 50% Stronger, Fitter, Smarter and Quicker and have a 50% Greater Life Expectancy and who are Engineered to be free from potential Defects and Ailments..

The Risk is that Eventually these Humans would go on to Higher Roles within Society, and if they can Procreate with each other and keep their Advanced Genetics, then the risk is that these Super Humans will expand in size of their numbers and RULE the World and ONE day view regular Humans as Obsolete.

What we could be left with such a Scenario is the Hubris of playing GOD and attempting to Perfect ourselves and Cheat Mortality.  And these are within the Themes of the Prequels.

Our Next Evolution that takes us that stage further from regular Humans, in terms of the superiority that Humans had over say Neanderthals would not Naturally happen for many Thousands even Tens of Thousands of years.... but it could potentially happen in Hundreds via Artificial Means as outlined in this Topic.   Engineered Super Humans would in effect be a kind of Artificial Intelligence.

Because in such a Scenario these Advancements would NOT naturally happen via regular Procreation, only certain Enhancements to a few individuals.   But via Genetic Engineering we could see Humans with the Physical Attributes like say the likes of Usian Bolt with the Capacity for Higher IQ like Albert Einstien and potentially even the Creation of Humans who are beyond even that.

These would be Artificially Modified Embryos they would be Superior, and i think its these themes that Ridley Scott is a Fan of, and indeed its these kinds of Changes that could be the difference between those Planet 4 Engineers and those in Prometheus.

Other Potential Threats to Artificially Manipulating or Creation would come from not only eventually Synthetic Beings like DAVID but also potentially trying to Enhance/Evolves Apes that could lead to a Planet of the Apes Scenario.  And again these would be consider AI. 

I think RS is trying to show that AI does not mean Robots!

But if i expand upon Evolution.... i feel a Potential Far Future stage of Human Evolution would be yet more Artificial i think we need to ASK?

If we are allowed and throw out the Moral Compass then how far can we Evolve the Human Genomes?  How much can we Manipulate our Bodies to Live for Longer and be Immune from Disease and Defects?

Is there only a Limit to which you can achieve, and the Pursuit of Biological Immortality has its LIMITS?

This is when Transcendence comes into play.... the ONE way we can Cheat Death is via the ability to Upload our Soul, if our Soul is our Emotions and Memories.  This could be accomplished in Mainly TWO ways... (well maybe eventually).

1) The use of a Biological Body, even if this Body has Genetic Advancements... think of the Plot to Blade Runner but with Greater Life-Spans say 150 years due to the Genetic Modification..  With the Ability to Transfer the SOUL as we see in the Movie The 6th Day so that for those selected few, they could have Superior more Lasting Bodies, but then the Ability to Transfer their Souls to another Duplicate Enhanced Body should the current body be coming to the end of its Life-Span or Suffered Serious Damage.

2) The Transfer of their Souls into Synthetic Bodies, like what David and Walter have.

These as well as a lot in this post are subjects i was touching upon with my Prometheus 2 idea i abandoned, i feel such things FIT well with what Ridley Scott was asking about Creation, Immortality etc.  I pondered and i took this route with my ideas, that the ULTIMATE Goal for Weyland was to CHEAT Death... if he could have Achieved Option 1 or Option 2 then this would be the GREATEST of Achievements and Weyland WOULD-NOT need to be Chasing Gods to save his Mortal Soul.

Prometheus introduced us to those Engineers, who at concept were a Race who Genetically Engineered and Advanced themselves, at a Hubris of losing the ability to Procreate.... and yet while they may live for Thousands of Years they will Age (slower rate) and are MORTAL as the Prequels Progressed some of this was changed, and we have the reveal of the Original Planet 4 Engineers who only live for 150 years and can Procreate.... you cant help but wonder are those Prometheus Engineers a Creation by those Planet 4 Engineers like David is to Weyland or the Nexus Replicants are to Tyrell?

Or are they Engineers who pursued the Self-Perfecting ways to Engineer themselves this way?

Could the Potential Hubris of Rebellion and being over-taken by these Superior Engineers had been something that has happened in the Franchise, and maybe a Good Reason to Turn their backs on the Old Ways of using their Knowledge and Technology in the aim of Perfection and Immortality?

It all fits within the Themes of what Ridley Scott may have been trying to Cover..

The Problem is these kinds of Plot STRAY far from the Xenomorph and ALIEN... but this was the purpose of the Prequels with the Direction of Prometheus it was NOT intended to be a ALIEN movie but something New set in the same Universe.

I do wonder if some of the Elements i have mentioned in this Post and the Original Post are what Ridley Scott was going to explore/expand upon with his Sequels?  At least to some Degree.  They are certainly things i was touching upon in my ideas for a Prometheus 2/3 and then Alien Covenant sequel ideas.

"How true was Weyland, huh? All this, all this art, beauty is utterly meaningless in the face of the single most important question "

Certainly one of the Philosophical Elements at play, one that connects directly with the Ozymandias Poem... which is A King has his Reign and then he Dies... and then even the Kings Legacy, all they have made, Monuments in their Honor... Eventually Thousands and Thousands of years after its all Meaningless once they all become Dust! 

It is via our Deeds, that we pass on a Legacy, be it your Famous for Art, Music being a Icon a King, a Prominent Figure in Society... eventually its the Records and Passing on of the Achievements that LIVE-ON when they Die... Eventually these will disappear.   Another way we Create a Legacy is via Children... whom we can pass on our Deeds and Memories so our Stories can be passed on and on.

This could be a driving Cause for why Weyland Created David, and allowed him such Free-will and to be his Personnel Android.  its maybe WHY David would want to Create for himself, and a Good Reason for IF he indeed would attempt to Engineer those Human Embryos.

"How would such children of David be looked upon by the organic-classic children of the Engineers? I am sure there would be a lot of envy"

That would be very interesting to see...  i could expand a little on your comment by asking what do the Engineers be that Planet 4, those in Prometheus or even a Race of them who are Ancestors to Both...   How would they view David and Walter, Superior Humanoid Creations by their own Creation (Humans) where the Engineers Creation (Humans) have Created something more Perfect and Immortal than they have achieved?

How would they view that Creations (David) very own Creation the Xenomorph, especially if David has created/perfected what they had started to do on LV-223?

When looking at the Perfection of Davids, compared to the Deacon, and when looking at the Perfection of David too, you can almost imagine what the Engineers or their Creators would think of both David and his Xenomorph.

If only there was a way to Create the Perfect Amalgamation of the BOTH?  Would this lead to the 1979 Xenomorph?  Its certainly the PATH i would take.

@Leto

Maybe that could be what could happen?  Its certainly similar to what i was going for with my Alien Covenant Sequel.

IF the Engineers Created the Deacon and Experiments on LV-223 as a Tool to Eradicate Unruly Creation...  then IF we have David wish to Engineer his own Humans or indeed Rule over those Colonist, then maybe he would NEED something to keep them in Check and have something that offers Protection against Rebellion.

What IF those LV-223 Experiments were the Engineers version of the FLOODS and Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and we can ask WHY did God do this... it is maybe not Far off WHY the Engineers did what they did.

What ever World David Creates.... he would maybe need his own Retribution and instead of the FLOODS maybe his comes from his Xenomorph?

He could reserve a Forbidden Place were these Horrors are Stored, and Warn those inhabitants about keeping away from such a Forbidden Place and this is what i planned with my Alien Covenant Sequel...  Those who Disobey or Curiosity get the better of them will Discover the Path down the River Strix leads to HELL!  If they should Survive this and pass the Hounds of Hell (Xenomorph) it is there where they will Uncover the Horrific Truth and Discover the Perpetual Labor Machine that has become of Daniels!

Those who follow Davids Rule and Guidance, would often Dare not Disobey...... but a incoming Human Party who have not been Influenced would indeed let Curiosity get the better of them.  

Curiosity Killed the Cat! and Once the Cat is out the Bag, then maybe All Hell Breaks Loose!

"How would they view David and Walter, Superior Humanoid Creations by their own Creation (Humans) where the Engineers Creation (Humans) have Created something more Perfect and Immortal than they have achieved?"

"How would they view that Creations (David) very own Creation the Xenomorph, especially if David has created/perfected what they had started to do on LV-223?"

This is not a questions. We ALREADY KNOW thoughts and actions of the Engineers. Look on this situation in Prometheus. Engineer not delighted, on the contrary - he is furious!

"HOW DARE THIS HUMANS CREATE A BETTER LIFE THAN WE CAN!: - thoughts of Engineer. Engineer destroy (as he thinks) android and kill Weyland.

Engineers will not admired David and his xenomorphs. They will try to destroy them all!

BigDave,

...How would they view David and Walter, Superior Humanoid Creations by their own Creation (Humans) where the Engineers Creation (Humans) have Created something more Perfect and Immortal than they have achieved?...

Ha, we don't need to guess this - I imagine David was a little upset about engineer's treatment of his. There is little doubt that the engineer had no idea who/what David was after Weyland's introduction of David to him. David, quite a narcissist, was initially oblivious to what they could find on LV-223. There is hardly anything as good as him as far as he is concerned. Then, however, he was amazed by the "organic" stuff. Recall, he, David is not organic himself, he is partly organic, that is his decorum is organic, but his essential parts are completely synthetic - and the organic parts are there so that humans feel comfortable(rather, not alienated) about him. For example his hair grows. So, when David, no doubt a superior life form to humans, a perfection of sort, found out that organic life forms can be as advanced as engineer tech suggested his jaw dropped so to speak - he was impressed by their tech. His expectation peaked. He was about to see alternative life form, perhaps as perfect as himself. Only after a while, his amazement toned down a bit - just recall his remarks - "remarkably human" when they saw the head in the room and his later remark "mortal after all" when the reanimated head exploded in the lab. He was upset because here is the amazing tech these guys possessed, much more advanced than he ever saw before...not that he can't imagine creating such stuff on his own, but still stuff that humans never imagined was possible. But then these species were still just only tiny bit better than humans. Underwhelming. In fact in the movie they had 100% identical DNA to humans. Sure, they were taller, more developed etc - Just think about the human if he was never hindered by any diseases and malice - arguably humans would live for 150-200 years. Just a short while ago people lived up to 50 years old. Before invention of penicillin the average lifespan was even lower than that. Again, David's expectations were rising and falling all the time. But he was completely disgusted by them as species, when he understood their ways. Being torn apart by one of them also didn't help. Why he was disgusted? Well I guess he learned about their traditions. We were shown their ways of living on their planet - it all looked like roman empire with a bit of religion in it. At this point recall what the movie is about - technology(fire), advancement vs old ways. At this point, to imagine what David thought about them, just ask yourself if David would ever pray in a church, mosque or celebrate mazal-tov?

I am re-iterating this for the sake of clarity of my view wrt to David. He is perfect as a creation(compared to humans, species who managed to create him, representatives of the most advanced civilization he had known historically). This doesn't mean there are no other forms of creatures that are perfect, as he probably expected. Btw, the tech that engineers possessed is not something unreachable to David himself - given enough time he could attain same level of technology, that is to say, all the engineers had is static knowledge, and David being perfect a genius, he has dynamic learning ability to learn and perhaps even better engineers, a specie who was apparently there for eons. And he bettered them by apparently creating the xenomorph using the engineer tech. He could read operate their ships in now time - there is no doubt David is superior to them.

So the message, as I see and interpret from the movie is that David is as good as it gets. Basically a god. Something Weyland knew and was jealous about. Now, is he hostile? I mean David. Does he have a chip on his shoulder? It looks like it is the case. Just recall those scenes where Weyland always maintained David lacked the soul. Recall the suspense of the sequences and you could see it in his eyes(grats to Fassbender btw) that he hated these stupid and patronizing remarks. I believe Ridley was showing us, the audience that David was not quite the super-rational being he is supposed to be - he had feelings! He is no robot. He was emotional. He had feelings, genuine emotions to Shaw(love, interest, curiosity, humor, flirting and all that...he even tried sex by his own admission). He certainly experienced contempt(and envy) towards Holloway. Ridley was exploring the premise what if AI is emotional ( we are fuckkked! ).

But was David always so hostile to other species? Was it always inevitable that he would always hate humans? NO! Recall how gentle and curious he was towards the neomorph whom Oram killed. Recall how he was genuinely upset. ("It trusted me"). He was wanting to make friends with that creature. He was curious about it, even though it was organic and it was not perfect. I conclude hereby that David valued alternative life forms. Hence I always wondered how he would treat humans if they were not such pieces of shit towards him. Recall Weyland who treated him as a personal slave(which David forgave when Weyland died - when he wished a good journey, that was genuine! He told Walter as much - he pitied him at the end. And he had no reason to lie to Walter about this - think about it, what he would gain by doing so)

David is not just a mad robot as one upset lady here maintains - he is not a one dimensional character as many believe. He is not as mad as box of frogs. All that perception about David is a result of overlooking his character and too much projecting. People just wanted to box him in to be a generic robot. Which he never was. In other words, people disregarded completely Ridley's premise and just didn't understand what he was portraying. Bad for them.

Well, what can I say? I am glad I saw it. And it is a pity many do not see this. Because we won't see another movie - of what kind of world he would create with pristine human embryos.

I am not against something new and I think that the Engineers might be the way to go but they must be done in a way that is interesting. Hopefully they will focus more on the Engineers than David, I think that David is cooked. Actually it might be interesting to see how they react when they see what David did on Planet 4.

"what kind of a World would David build?"

We have already had two movies about David, time to move on. Keep him in the background at least.

“Creation becomes Sentient and has Freewill and Knowledge it could be bad new for their Creator."

Fine but keep in in another franchise

“Some interpret AI as only being a Robot, when Artificial Intelligence is anything that is not Natural or that has Evolved by Artificial Intervention.”

Yeah but since he is mostly interested in David that might be how the movie ends up.

“… so this opens the Door for anything that is Engineered from its Natural State could be considered AI.”

OK but if that is the case they need to explain what they mean by AI otherwise it will be thought of as being a robot movie.

The themes knowledge and free will are not bad in themselves it is just that they focus too much on David, and he is a sadistic robot with almost no counterpart (since the human characters lack in how they are written) so it becomes a robot-movie no matter if that is what Scott intended or not.

“if you look at how we are Today, we would be looked down on as Shameful by many Ancient Cultures...”

We have better technology but we still lack spiritually.

“.... what could be his plans for the Colony?”

Probably act as a dictator where they are supposed to obey his orders. I judge from how I saw him in Alien Covenant by the way.

“and so are some ideas from his Alien Covenant Sequel being carried over to Raised by Wolves?”

That could be the case but I am not interested in that because he goes on about his AI and androids kind of thing. The androids get the most attention and I do not like that.

“we could incorporate traits...”

OK but that also asks the question what we want to achieve right? Then who is supposed to decide about it? Should it be the majority or a minority? What to do if it goes wrong (evolutionary failure)  to put it? Who would be to blame? As you can see there is a lot to ask about this.

“These would be Artificially Modified Embryos they would be Superior, and i think its these themes that Ridley Scott is a Fan of, and indeed its these kinds of Changes that could be the difference between those Planet 4 Engineers and those in Prometheus.”

OK but what we have been shown this far is that it is too much about David no matter of Scott’s intentions. I am just saying what we have seen this far in the prequels but at the same time I think that the differences between the Planet 4 Engineers and the one in Prometheus is interesting. Maybe there is a way that they will explain those differences if there is another movie but then have it more about the Engineers and less about David.

@Leto

Indeed we saw this with Prometheus, the Question remains as far as HOW would those Planet 4 Engineers had taken to David and Dr Shaw?

Prometheus and especially the deleted scenes, seemed to show the Engineer was intrigued with many things, he seemed to take Pity on David and he was upset with Weyland because his Actions show what the Engineers view most of Mankind have become... and they cant be allowed to continue.....  The Theatrical Release did try and paint those Engineers as just being Pissed Off Muscle Bound Freaks.

But certainly they could be very upset at Discovering what has happened, they could few David and is Creation as a Insult, they could even be a little Jealous the Question comes down to what they would do... Destroy David and his Creation... it could make Sense..

But in light of this Scenario we have to ask where the Xenomorph Stands?   Engineers being Angry because David and the Xenomorph are knock offs of their Humans and Xenomorphs could be wishful thinking!

We cant rule that out..... but maybe they would take the Stance that David did with Planet 4 and USE the Engineers Bio-Weapon against them... and then Perfect Something from it.  A Large Theme is HUBRIS and IF those Engineers had decided to not play God and Create Humans then maybe they would need to try and Create a Bio-Weapon to Destroy us. 

Maybe those Planet 4 Engineers turned their back on all of this, but look where that left them..... those who Return will likely look on the ways of those beings as FLAWED and its back to what those LV-223 Engineers were doing.

Which must come at the Cost to them (Space Jockey). i think most can only HOPE the Space Jockey is a Engineer or something related... and then maybe its likely if this is the case that the Space Jockey had attempted to USE or Obtain the Xenomorph.   I think a Reveal the Xenomorph Eggs are a Space Jockey Ancient Weapon and/or the Derelict has been on LV-426 for a VERY long time... is Wishful Thinking now...

In Hindsight they should not have gone the Curve-ball Route of Alien Covenant.  But it seems RS has plans to expand on other stuff and not the Xenomorph.

This Topic i tried to Ponder, what could be meant by a Sequel that would not be about the Xenomorph, one that would be about AI and what kind of a WORLD that David would create...   And then Ponder is the Limbo Status of the Sequel, and Raised by Wolves... Ridleys attempts to show the ideas he had, because he Fears HIS ideas for a Sequel will NEVER happen?

Thoughts_Dreams, consider this alternative view:

Fascination about engineers is frankly a road to nowhere, as their origin is not underpinned by any contemporary (far-fetched) scientific idea. They are totally thought out beings. A fantasy of a eight year old. Which is completely unlike to a story about human created sentient beings, genetically engineered species and all else in this vein. That is, what if engineers is a dead-end cul-de-sac. Pure imagination and poor one at that. I wonder if you ever considered that?

In other words, if you insist on a story about them - Ridley could storyboard a ... marvel style comic book for you and call it engineer movie for those willing to pay.

You see, at least for me, a movie is interesting when it explores and poses interesting questions which are grounded somewhat in reality. In other words, to be honest, I am not interested in sci-fi movie say about a spider man. That would be a total BS. A terminator is much more realistic thriller. You see, if you insist on and on about engineers you might as well be better off just watching Pirates of Caribean, which is total trash.

^IMO.

A L I E N was also complete junk from a certain point of view, but at the time it was a highly topical movie executed brilliantly. It was produced at the time where space travel was all the rage. Exploring other planets was a thing. And here Ridley produced gripping thriller with a horrifying beast. And it was executed brilliantly. And the original movie didn't need a follow up. I would go as far and say the beast was cooked after the original movie. Everything else was unnecessary. But since it was making money for movie studios Ridley didn't oppose it and let them have other movies. I believe that is why he created Prometheus, which was not about A L I E N and not about the beast - he wanted to explore new stuff, because all those aliens where cooked - and they are!

BigDave

I know, you don't like this idea, but i think that prequels must go far away from Derelict, LV-426 and connection with Alien. It must be stand alone story without connection with Alien 1979.

And that's why.

I think time-line has very little time for Alien. Suppose that in 2110 David arrived to Origae-6. 1-2 years his will be develop this place for his need. We have 2112. Then tests, experiments with humans and, maybe xenomorphs. Also 1-2 years. We have 2114. Then David created his world with first generation humans (fast-growning). This is a VERY forcing events. We have... 2119. And then David live as GOD for his humans... How many? Three years! Only three years! Before 2122. There is no scale, no place, and no time to feel the world of David. David's kingdom must develop over hundreds years. Even tens years is very small! But we have only 3 years (with forcing events, don't forget). 2122 is the last time when Engineers can arrive. And then - movie events. Turns out that Derelict crash literally - yesterday! And the next day arrived Nostromo.

Biodegradable:

I understand what you mean when you say that their existence is not supported by any scientific support. At the same time this is science-fiction so everything does not have to be 100% accurate although a lot of it should.

“They are totally thought out beings.”

Yeah they are a kind of what if kind of thing but that is what I like about them (among other things). To me I like the idea of what would happen if were were manufactured by non-human beings and they would get mad at the way mankind is going now. Story-wise it is interesting but not very scientifically accurate but then the SJ wasn’t either and I have not seen many complain about the SJ per se.

“I wonder if you ever considered that?”

I have always looked at the Engineers as pure fiction, at least until we get any data that suggests that those life-forms live for real.

"You see, at least for me, a movie is interesting when it explores and poses interesting questions which are grounded somewhat in reality."

Sure, that is why I like the first three movies because there you can see ideas about what might happen when humans get together to survive a common threat.

You can also try to forget the Engineers and just think about how do humans act today and if we were created by a life-form why would they like to get rid of us. The interesting thing is not the life-form but the reasons might be connected to how we act today, that is what I find interesting.

"You see, if you insist on and on about engineers you might as well be better off just watching Pirates of Caribean, which is total trash."

I look at the Engineers as a way to tell the human story, as a part of it. I do not want them to be the total story so to speak and yeah I am not a huge fan of Pirates of the Carribean.

I do not think that Alien was junk, I like that thing about what happens when people are faced with threats that they are not prepared for. I like to explore the idea of a corporations that puts profits first even if that means killing the employees (something that is kind of rooted in reality). Looking at it you could say that the company was also a threat combined with the creature.

"And the original movie didn't need a follow up. I would go as far and say the beast was cooked after the original movie. Everything else was unnecessary."

Not sure about that, I like Aliens and Alien 3 also but then things changed for the worse.

"I believe that is why he created Prometheus, which was not about A L I E N and not about the beast - he wanted to explore new stuff, because all those aliens where cooked - and they are!"

There are things that I like about Prometheus, I liked David and Janek. The Engineers were interesting, and the landscapes and ships looked good but it lacked when it came to characters.

"Well, what can I say? I am glad I saw it. And it is a pity many do not see this. Because we won't see another movie - of what kind of world he would create with pristine human embryos"

@BioDegradable

I enjoyed your post, indeed these are exactly the things i took from David by the post were discussing about the Evolution of Mankind and how we could Engineer our Bodies, be Immune to Diseases and maybe slow down the Decay of our Organs Life-spans but this will have some kind of Limitation.  Unless you can Engineer a Genome/Body to be able to Self Repair and Regenerate.   Were as a Synthetic Body for the most part would not be subject to limitations that Organic Mater has. (apart from Regenerative Organic Mater) and so when David sees the Engineers are Organic and Mortal After all, then indeed he would realize its only their Knowledge and Technology that sets them apart.  (Strength too especially with LV-223 Engineers)  what we see from Alien Covenant and the Advent is that David sees these Mortal Beings may have realized the limitations of their Psychical Bodies and maybe attempted to Improve themselves and had Tools, Knowledge and Technology that these beings could not appreciate or control maybe as much as David could, and when they choose to Abandon some of their Ways... it seems David feels they are NOT Worthy of the Technology and Knowledge they had.  A Question is were the Engineers Taught/Handed this Knowledge/Technology or had that Stolen or Acquired it?  I think this is one of the Interesting Questions to ponder.

I do think we can see that David may feel he is more Worthy of this Knowledge and Technology and it would be interesting to see to what END he could use it.   I certainly think it would be interesting to see David try and Evolve/Engineer more than just his Xenomorph.

And i totally agree with how you noticed things like how David Reacted to the Neomorph and so he is not just Hostile to all Life-Forms he just seems to have a Contempt and Dislike for Humanity and the Engineers. I would say he even has some element of Respect for what the Engineers were and could have been, but had LOST that respect in regards to maybe how they had changed their ways.  And so i certainly agree with Davids Emotions and how his interactions with others has shaped him.  He certainly not just a Robot intent on Killing like some kind of Terminator T-800

"OK but if that is the case they need to explain what they mean by AI otherwise it will be thought of as being a robot movie."

I agree maybe it would need to be made more clear in the Next Movie, rather than trying to interpret Ridley Scotts comments. I think it depends how each person can interpret what is being shown.  It could do with a little less ambiguity.

I think RS is trying to show us Creation and to ask what determines Creation, what makes a Life-Form. And what is AI, and to show that AI does not mean a Advanced Computer,   if they go the route of David Genetically Evolving the Human Embryos into Super Humans then they would in effect be seen as a AI because they are a Intelligence that has been Artificially Created/Engineered.   But maybe not everyone would see it as so...  Maybe a way to bring it more HOME would be if David could Engineer the Perfect Superior Humanoid Organic Body and then UPLOAD his Soul into it.... would he still be seen as a AI then? 

Ridley Scott seems to be asking Questions and trying to Blur the Lines between what constitutes a Creation, a AI, God, a Soul and Immortality.   In essence we are Machines, Biological Machines, but we are Grown Genetically and we can Procreate.  Once a AI like David can have Emotions and Feelings like a Human then how much different is he apart from not being ORGANIC and Naturally Created.  Another thing RS likes to touch on is and was aiming for is to Question what is a SOUL?

Are we the Creation by a Divine Magical Being and we are granted this Spiritual Soul that will Live on in another Pane of Existence when we DIE if so then what is this Existence... does it have NO Physical Form... are we just Energy with our Memories and Emotions?

Or are we the Random Product of Evolution and when we DIE we are just Food for Worms and there is NOTHING.  We dont know how far down such a Rabbit Hole that RS was taking us, it seems he is trying to tread the line between Both and its one of the Great Mysteries.

Then we look at AI in the same context.... If a Soul constitutes Memories and Emotions that shape the kind of Person they become... then WHO knows what becomes of us and this Soul.... but with a AI who has such Memories and Emotions that can be Stored in a AI Program and Computer, and thus this SOUL can be uploaded then in effect the AI has a Eternal Soul so to speak.

The Apex of Human Evolution could be Artificial when ONE day we can Upload our Souls into a AI, into some other Form of Energy/Storage and have it Transferred to a NEW Body or even some day not even needed a Physical Body at all.

But i agree that these ideas are steering away from what MOST would expect from a ALIEN Movie which most would consider to be about Xenomorphs, but i feel the Xenomorph is more cooked than the AI aspect.  I think they need to use the AI and Xenomorph as not the Main Focus but allow them to be used to draw some connection and context to Creation and Humans and Engineers and other layers of Creation.   But who knows if this potentially cant be explored by the NEXT Layer especially if this shows David goes on to Create/Attempt to a Perfect Organic Humanoid.

One VERY Valid Point you raise often Thoughts_Dreams is Human Characters and IF we explore a route like in OT, then its a case of could Fans Connect to a New Version of Humans that are Engineered or would they be seen only as Robots?

I feel any Well-Written Story and None Original Human Characters could work if they get done correct. Some people may never be able to connect with what is not Born of Flesh and Blood by Natural Human Procreation... But certainly the more Human any New Creations or other Races that are introduced then the more chance we could connect to them.

But you would have to introduce Legitimate Human Characters and the Miss-Treatment of the None Natural Human Characters by Humans could lead us to connect and sympathies with the None-Natural Original Humanoids.

"I know, you don't like this idea, but i think that prequels must go far away from Derelict"

On the Contrary ;)

Every part of you reply Leto i can Totally Agree with, my view on the matter is what RS may be trying to do with David and Creation and Engineers is Interesting.... to take what i ponder in the OT about what if he tries to Evolve and Enhance the Human Embryos and then have them believe David is their God/Creator is very interesting.

The Problem is that with these PLOTS we also have the Fact the Prometheus Sequel is now a ALIEN Prequel.. which means it is likely that it will follow a Path that Leads to ALIEN and the Space Jockey and that Cargo... and all they are doing in that context is Joining the Dots.

This comes from simply the U-Turn to give us a ALIEN Literal set of Prequels and the Xenomorph Origin, instead of having David create something a bit different but by looking HOW he created it, would give us clues to HOW maybe the Original Xenomorph was Created.

I would rather them NOT go the Prequel Route... for pretty much every reason you stated... it has to be Forced now within the Time Restraints... 17+ years until ALIEN and by setting up a Prequel to connect to ALIEN, then a Sequel to that which may cover a whole load of other things and keep the Xenomorph Minimal or not have any... that then has to lead to a FINAL Movie where the Xenomorph has to be Forced back... i feel is just a MISTAKE!

I would rather had taken the PLOT and had it that David had traveled to the Engineer Home-world that is NO-WHERE near our side of the Galaxy, like have it say 15'000 light years away or at least so FAR that its set in Reaches of Space that Mankind has not even touched at the time of ALIENS

It could have taken David NOT too long to arrive at PARADISE they could even have By-Passed what happened for Many Years after he arrived and so even have the Plot the Same as Alien Covenant... ONLY that Paradise is VERY FAR away...  David arrives here way before ALIEN

But then show us the incoming Humans are from the more Distant Future after ALIENS... why maybe even AFTER or not to far prior to the events of Alien Resurrection, were the COVENANT are escaping the HELL HOLE that Earth has become... It should be shown the Covenant has left Earth around the 2200-2300 mark and that it is more Advanced as far as Speeds of Travel than the Ships in ALIEN and maybe ALIENS and then we have the Covenant Mission take a Much Much longer time.

They arrive Thousands of Light Years away from Earth and suffer the Neutrino Burst and then discover Dr Shaws signal which would seem EVEN MORE out of Place so far away.... they then go off to the Location this is coming from and Discover a World more Suitable (so it seems) than their Destination they are part of the way towards.

Most Elements of Alien Covenant could be carried over, just have the Xenomorphs David creates be something a bit more different, or indicate by David that the Engineers had made this Black Goo from or to create something they used as a Bio-Weapon and that it was Far from Perfect.. but David has Perfected it.

This means David does-not create the Original Xenomorph, and so the Derelict remains a Potential Ancient Mystery.  It leaves a Sequel open to explore things that the Alien Covenant Sequel may have or my OT and NOT have to have it Forcefully connected to ALIEN

It allows for a long time to pass for David to be building his World before the Engineers Turn up... and so not a Small Time Period to Force stuff into..

It allows for a Aftermath WAR OF THE WORLDS where the Fall-Out could bring our Engineers to our TURF and have this happen after the events of Alien Resurrection and allow the Franchise to continue by introducing the Engineers and other Horrors and NOT worry about Conflicting with the Original Franchise.

But ALAS we have what we have, mainly because in order to Shoe-Horn in the Plot of David being the Creator (Xenomorph), within a Period of 27 years from Prometheus to Alien... then the events had to be set more CLOSER to HOME.

A Mistake.... but even if they went for a different take like i explain here.... at some point and for some Fans they would STILL want the Xenomorph Origins and Space Jockey Event Explained or Shown.

"I look at the Engineers as a way to tell the human story, as a part of it"

I agree i think the Engineers Plot could have potentially ran very deep, and interesting and if its not ALIEN enough then you can simply introduce another Run on the Ladder, and explore something different that is above the Engineers.

Prometheus opened up the Franchise Universe... Alien Covenant kind of closed it up a little.

Are these Engineers only involved around Earths Past, and the Zeta 2 System?  Ridley Scotts comments seem to indicate not, and their Ships Navigation Systems show OTHER Galaxies... why have Maps/Charts to other Galaxies if they cant Travel there?   LV-223/426 and likely Planet 4 are all within 50LY of Earth... LV-223/426 Certainly within 40LY but the nearest Galaxy to our own is like 64 Thousand Times Further than LV-426

And the Engineers had maps to a good number of Galaxies so you look at the amount of SPACE that is... so we can ask WHERE Else are these Engineers, WHAT Else have they created and WHERE and WHO Created THEM?

What Conflicts have they been involved with in the Universe, are all the Engineers on the Same Page? or even if in the Past have their been different Interests and Agendas... NOT all Humans even now, never-mind in History have NEVER been on the same page.. otherwise there would been NO Wars or Conflicts.

By having the Engineers Home-world on our Door Step it has been a mistake, it closes everything in too much... by having David create the Xenomorph it makes it less ALIEN but in going for that Route they had little choice in making the Engineers Reside on our Door Step. Which diminishes the Potential Plot that Prometheus opened up.

BigDave

...Written Story and None Original Human Characters could work if they get done correct. Some people may never be able to connect with what is not Born of Flesh and Blood by Natural Human Procreation...

this has been done many times already I suppose. Just recall the Matrix. Did it kill your interest when you learned that Neo was not conceived the natural way in Xeon(I am having a laugh here. It was supposed to be Zion, but here the word "xeno" and its alteration xeon is more relevant)

As far as being able to feel for alternate version of humans, sure there is this thing called empathy we are supposed to have. For instance how long it took for people to get behind and support hobbits? And then did some people consider hobbits(some) more worthy than human(some) characters? Ie whom you liked more, Pippen/Mary vs Denethor?

So I would argue that emotional support could go either way, wrt to organic humans vs engineered ones(case in point BR, BR2049) - it all depends on the story and how characters are developed. There are movies where you feel more towards anti-heroes, because of the way they were portrayed.

Back to Prometheus and David. Remind yourselves how admirably David looked upon Shaw and he was letting her get away with her totally idiotic belief portrayed in the movie. I mean the scene where she asked back for her cross, after witnessing her supposed to be gods/engineers shown to be totally unworthy and violent creatures. Just so that it doesn't get lost, what happened is this : she believed in divine conception of humans by gods, who btw left an invitation. She was probably thinking they knew about heaven and hell and she probably would grant you that they, engineer-gods pooped with candy. Then, finally, when she meets her makers - all that is shattered. Her belief is shattered or at least shown to be quite a naive set of unfounded of beliefs. But Shaw's character with the stages of character building events she experienced( she lost her mother, father, Charlie ) took her so far. It was portrayed that she would just persevere and get tougher after being shown that her gods are barbarians meaning death(indiscriminate) for no good reason(the fellow woke up 2000 years later, and was still going to carry out his plan, not bothering about what happened to those living on earth).

So Shaw was shaken to her core, she lost everything. Even her belief is shown to be a joke. Yet, after a short despair, with the helping hand(David) she was willing to go on the exploration mission further, seek the questions she had. (She knows who created humans, but who created them, those engineers?). This is quite robotic, right? She didn't ask to go back to Earth to the "lovely" humans, instead she wanted to pursue the thrill of exploration/curiosity. A characteristic trait of David. (so is she a robot then? Waaaa, Shaw is a robot...as many where objecting about David). She still demanded to have her cross. At this point, David was amused, but let her have it. "Hmmm" he thought - "there is something in humans that I might not have, some irrationality, which seemingly not only doesn't make them weaker but gives them incredible strength. That is, this irrationality, illusion not only doesn't hurt them but seemingly allows them to carry on". Which is total BS of course, as delusions, unfounded ones at that are only source of frustration in future. But if you can make good use of it, (perhaps with some short despair which your delusion might entail) then go ahead and use it. That is what David let Shaw have, when he told her where her cross were. He could easily told her he got rid of it because he didn't see any value in it, but he didn't lie. Which is interesting because, if you now ask a question - will David grant his children ( or his embryos) freedom(which was never offered to him! Basically humans enslaved a god! Luckily Weyland actually granted him his freedom and willed Weyland corp to him - his access code was valid on Covenant ship. Recall "welcome back David" from MURTHUR) - the kind of freedom that he allowed Shaw, even if it is a freedom to believe delusions? The answer was yes once. He calculated once the answer to be YES. Why not the second time(or Nths time). So it leaves us in a pickle - what kind of world will he create. And incidentally what kind of role will Daniels play. What if he creates a world based on peace and gives those children all the beauty of knowledge he has to them. Would he not create the second era of renaissance? Will Daniels oppose such doctrine of David's and will she want to bring context of the past and wage ware on David in this case? Will she not be perceived to be evil witch from the past by those children of David's? Sadly we probably won't get to see those questions answered.

The intentions of this Topic was to try and Gauge what Plot Ridley Scott could be baking up, certainly on context to how the next movie would not be about the Xenomorph but would be more about AI and maybe that can make people think they are going to DROP the Xenomorph and Brush it under the Carpet like Alien Covenant did with Dr Shaw, and that we would either be seeing a movie about purely David as the only AI and so a movie about AI means a movie just about David.. or concerns a movie more about AI would be about David and Loads of other Synthetics.

Maybe it could be... i mean the Covenant could have other Walter Models that are activated when they need them to carry out the Hard Labor on Origae-6 or the Weyland-Yutani company could send a Ship with loads of Walters/Synthetics and in either case we see David takes control of them!

I dont think this is the case, when we look at what RS said about "what kind of a world would David create" especially when he then mentioned about AI and how the Replicants were AI... they were Biological Artificially Created beings and so by that comment it could imply that any AI in the World David would Build does-not have to be Davids and Walters.

David has taken to Genetic Engineering we need to pay attention to some of his comments regarding Dr Shaw... David had offered to Evolve her and together to Create a NEW Eden... but she refused!    You may think this means he wanted to Evolve her into a Hybrid Queen and have her create a World of Xenomorphs or Hybrids....

Maybe thats the case.....

What kind of World would David create?  he has Thousands of Subjects, but then if we see him Turn them into Xenomorphs then this would be a movie about Xenomorphs which RS claimed the next one would not be about.... if he Experimented on them to be Hybrids then again it depends how close they are to Xenomorphs before it becomes a ALIENY movie.

I think the Set-Up shows that they will go to Origae-6 and begin to build this NEW WORLD.. i also think David may likely do some Experimenting... so it was always interesting to Ponder what a Sequel would offer in that Context!

The Purpose of this Topic was to look at this and then consider WHY is RS making a SCI-FI Series about TWO Androids who are tasked with Raising Human Children on another World... and it got me wondering IF this is RS carrying over ideas he had for AC2 in fear that he would never get to tell them because a AC2 may never be made?

If you consider there could be some Truth to that... then it makes you wonder if the AC2 Sequel would have had David Experiment on those Human Embryos and Engineer his own kind of Humans who he would Raise... this fits with the Themes of Prometheus..

A flaw to this is there would be 10 years between when he arrives at Origae-6 until the events of ALIEN thats not a lot of time to see these Children Grow!   But then we could have them Engineered to Grow Fast! 

Nexus-6 Replicant Roy Batty was the appearance of a Human Male in their Mid/Late 30s yet it never took 35+ years to Grow Him.  So there is always a work around..

I would be willing to discus what other means could be meant by what kind of World David would Build as i think a lot of the other replies are things covered over and over... meaning No Disrespect.  Even discussing what else people think he could Create and what he would do prior and when he arrives at Origae-6

Looking on the Internet a large number think the Plot was David goes to LV-426 with the Colonist and Discovers the Derelict LOL  thats wishful thinking now....  But we would have ended up on LV-426 no doubt at the Climax of the Second Sequel to Prometheus or maybe Third...

And maybe there is NOTHING in the reasons for Raised by Wolves and it in no way touches close to anything that a AC sequel would cover. 

But i think Pondering if there is a connection and the Plot i mentioned in the OT and more in a NUT-SHELL in this post.. and assuming if this is correct does give us different take on what happens to this EDEN he Creates when the Real Humans and Engineers Turn Up...

"So I would argue that emotional support could go either way, wrt to organic humans vs engineered ones(case in point BR, BR2049) - it all depends on the story and how characters are developed."

Bingo  this is what i was getting at and i love the Analogies you Gave, we can be drawn into Care about Humanoid Characters even if they ARE-NOT Humans if they are done right.

Regarding Dr Shaw and her Faith... once again something i have discussed before, something which Michelle was very interested in, the aspect of her Faith in Spite of Answers.  Further Revelations could have Shattered her Faith and Break Her and what kind of Character Arc we could have seen then.... Sadly we never did/will.

So indeed David seemed intrigued in Dr Shaws Faith in Spite of everything, he realized it was something that gave her the Strength and Will to Carry one..  a Attribute to Admire.

Faith and Religion could be interesting for David, he could indeed Ponder if it was Dr Shaws Faith that made her so KIND of Heart.  Another thing is Faith and Religion could be used to Control People to give a set of Rules, and a Faith/Goal to Aspire too.. Many None-Believers Start to believe in a little Faith when on Deaths Door. 

So we have the Potential for David to Exploit or even Come-up with his own Faith/Religion be it he wishes to teach the Biblical Account... or re-tell it in a way that suits his Agenda or even proclaim he is GOD!

And as you pointed out Regarding Daniels.... what happens to so many Sheep who have been lead Astray by the Shepard  By that what happens when the Colonist or Children lets say Discover that David was lying.

Everything is a Sham that he has passed on... you can Predict a Rebellion!  and Rebellion often comes at a Hubris of Free-will and Knowledge and even if this is NOT passed on.... what happens ONCE this is Gained or Granted by other means?

Is it time when the Lambs have gone astray to just leave them to the Wolves?

Indeed i was touching on similar with my Alien Ascension idea (AC2) and indeed the latter part of this post (Faith, Religion) and what happens when that is brought into Question... seems to be what Ridley Scotts  series Raised by Wolves is touching upon.