Alien: Covenant
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BigDave

Nov-18-2018 4:57 PM

With the Recent Topics and Buzz surrounding the Sequel to Alien Covenant their seems to be a lot of Interpretation by the Alien Communities about where the Next Movie was going!  However.....  taking a deeper look into Ridley Scotts Comments could prove so many WRONG!

The Sequel to Alien Covenant has had its share of clues to what this Next Installment would Provide.  But looking into the Comments from Ridley Scott, it appears maybe indeed the Plot/Direction for the Sequel MAY not be TOO FAR off what Ridley Scotts  Raised by Wolves Sci-Fi Series could be about.

Ridley Scott had announced they are off to the Planet in the Next Movie, but 3-4 Parties will be coming to investigate, One of these the Engineers who Return to Planet 4 and Discover the Devastation that David has left in his wake!

The Empire Magazine Special has Reignited theories into what the Sequel had in mind... which has lead to Speculation that it will be set on LV-426.  I believe this is INCORRECT.

If we look at some of the Comments that Ridley Scott has made regarding the Sequel and Artificial Intelligence and Xenomorph we see that he seems to think the Xenomorph has nearly run its course and you have to come up with something NEW, he also had said the Next Movie would be about Artificial Intelligence and he had asked us "what kind of a World would David build?"

Ridley Scott felt he was ahead of the Curve with Prometheus and its themes and Creation, Religion, Mortality, Immortality and it appeared he was not interested in going the route of a Direct Prequel and to Cover the Xenomorph Origins.  But when told this is the Direction that the Prometheus Sequel was taking he had applied some of his Ideas to the Xenomorph Origins.. where Ridley Scott feels our Greatest Threat is the Creation of AI and Once any Creation becomes Sentient and has Freewill and Knowledge it could be bad new for their Creator.

Some interpret AI as only being a Robot, when Artificial Intelligence is anything that is not Natural or that has Evolved by Artificial Intervention.  When talking about AI in relation to the Sequel he brought up that Roy Batty was AI and Rachael was AI from Blade Runner.  Indeed Replicants are Artificially Created but Organic and so these comments show that RS does not see that AI is restricted to Computers and Machines...  Even the Revelation that the Planet 4 Engineers are the ORIGINALS could indicate our Prometheus Engineers are Genetically Engineered/Created Versions and so could be considered a Artificial Intelligence  so this opens the Door for anything that is Engineered from its Natural State could be considered AI

If the Next Movie was to be less about the Xenomorph or maybe not at all, and about AI and what WORLD would David Create then we have to consider those TWO things as Large Plot Points.   A Theme at play with Prometheus and to a extent Alien Covenant was the pursuit of PERFECTION  and Creation and does being a Creator make you a GOD!  If we look at the LV-223 Engineers as being a attempted Perfection/Super Engineered Engineers then this can make sense to the differences.

A lot of people have interpreted David as EVIL, but then in The Crossing he Did-Not appear so.  David had mentioned that he had Wiped this World Clean (Planet 4) so that he and Dr Shaw could start a New Eden... but She Rejected...  could she had Discovered what he did and became upset at how is she going to get her Answers now?  Could David had offered that he could help her to CREATE!

During the Build-up to Alien Covenant and the TRAILER i had pondered the significance of the AURORA NATURE BOY song and its Lyrics.

We have seen how David had been mistreated by Humans, include Weyland and Holloway, yet he noticed Dr Shaw was different "your very kind of heart" he grew fond of Dr Shaw and Loved Her but he also took Rejection Bad.  When as Walter he was talking to Daniels about "what kind of a World they can build" he had said "if we are kind to it, it will be a Kind World"

Knowledge/Freewill are key Themes... every Child is Born Innocent and Pure it is the Experiences and Upbringing that Shape what kind of a Person they become...  KNOWLEDGE is a Major Theme, if we look at what Mankind had done so Wrong to upset the Engineers, we also need to look at what we had done to Wrong to Upset GOD in the Biblical Stories....  IF the Engineers/GOD could just WIPE the Memories of Mankind, and then we could be TAUGHT the intended ways again.  If a Emissary had taken a Few Hundred Children of Mankind away to a New Place they could have been  TAUGHT the intended ways and Not be Corrupted by the ways of Man...   Knowledge and Freewill play Key Roles, for the Bible it shows us that the Fall of Lucifer was because he was created Perfect and had been given more Free-will and Knowledge and he is just like David, where as other Angels were more like Walter.. made to Serve and could not have Independent thought for what HE wants for himself.

Mankind on Earth have become Corrupt, if you look at how we are Today, we would be looked down on as Shameful by many Ancient Cultures, when Mosses was given the 10 Commandments it was to set the Chosen on a New Path of Obedience and Against Sinful ways,  When GOD chose prior to Destroy the Sinful... he saved Noah and a Handful to START ANEW if we now go to the COVENANT and its Mission... the Origins Novel informs us these Colonist wish to abandon the Decaying Corrupt World that has become Earth, and by Virtue of Daniels and Jacob wishing to build a CABIN ON  A LAKE shows these Colonist could be looking to START ANEW but also maybe living a more Simple and Basic Life...  Much like our Engineers may have turned to on Planet 4.

The Covenant is acting like a Noahs Ark for a New Start for these Colonist.

Going back to the AURORA SONG the last part of the Lyrics are... Then he said to me: "The greatest thing you'll ever learn Is to love and be loved in return"

I think this reflects to how he felt about Mankind and how he saw difference in Dr Shaw because of how she treated him and i feel this will HOLD TRUE for his comment towards Daniels "if we are kind it will be a kind world"

OK so HOW does this lot apply to the Plot of the Alien Covenant Sequel?

If we consider for a moment that David views that Mankind has become wicked and corrupt, and we accept that maybe he had a different outlook towards Dr Shaw, but NOW he does-not see that Mankind should be allowed a Chance to Start Over..

If we consider David has a interest in Creation, and then we ask what would he feel about the intentions of the Covenants Mission... He may see the Colonist as maybe NOT 2000 Good Souls!   But what of the Embryos?

If we imagine for a moment that David destroys the Colonist but he allows the Embryos to Grow and become Children then THEY would have NO Knowledge of anything...  they would have NO Wickedness, NO Sin.. David could RAISE those Children to be however if wishes, he is the ONE who could influence their Culture, their Ways, Religion and he could even say to them that HE is there CREATOR...

But HE is Not!.....

But what does he know of the Engineers, those very Human like Engineers he Destroyed, and what about those more Enchanted Engineers he seemed to have a Interest in from Prometheus?  Are those Engineers in Prometheus Engineered?  When David speaks about how the Engineers did-not deserve the Power/Knowledge they had and they abandoned their ways.... could he be referring to those Engineers and their attempts to Perfect themselves?

Perfection/Evolution is a Key Theme, indeed we see that Walter is a Evolution of David... but he lacks the Free-will that David has.  You can be sure that David will upload himself to a Walter Body as i cant see Fassbender playing a One Armed Android.   With David now in a more Perfect Vessel/Body.... what could be his plans for the Colony?

Lets suppose David would not only allow the Embryos to Survive, what if he attempts to Genetically Modify them? To Perfect their Genomes to make them more Superior to Normal Humans.... they would then be his CREATION and maybe he could see these Humans as Worthy of Saving.

And to START a NEW EDEN...

David would have Evolved Mankind, a New Creation at his Hands, in his Image, these Children would be Free from Sin and the ways of Mankind and can be MOLDED to a Civilization that Worships David as Creator and God.

This Process would be Engineered and so Artificial which could make them a AI

What happens when these Enchanted Humans Discover the Truth which they would do eventually when other Humans arrive or Engineers....   But HOW can that fit with the Time-Line?

Maybe David could Engineer these Embryos so they Grow Faster than Regular Humans can?

I CANT HELP BUT WONDER.... with the Sequel in Limbo and the Plot to Raised by Wolves... is this him using some of the ideas he had, that he FEARS he will never get the Chance to Showcase... and so are some ideas from his Alien Covenant Sequel being carried over to Raised by Wolves?

If you have Got this far.... THANK YOU for your time ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

86 Responses to Alien: Exodus

BigDave

Nov-18-2018 5:02 PM

Thanks for those who have invested the Time in Reading that lot ;)

I know such a Plot may not sit well with many, my Prometheus 2/3 ideas i worked on featured AI a bit and my Sequel ideas to Alien Covenant which i had shared a little last year, also revolved around AI and also similar, very very similar ideas to what i proposed above...  These are my interpretations of RS comments, they are also what for the most part my ideas for a sequel was...

I am not suggesting this is what we was going to get, or that maybe myself and RS are on the Same Page of Thinking.. but maybe pretty close.

I do think that Xenomorphs and Engineers would play a larger role in the 4th Prequel. But make a appearance in the 3rd Act of the Covenant Sequel.

PS... can you spot how many Engineer Ships arrive at Origae-6 and what kind of Apocalypse they would bring!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Batchpool

Nov-18-2018 6:04 PM

A good and interesting read. Many years ago RS started his career in advertising and one of the first stars he worked with was David Bowie. For some reason after reading through, I recall the lyrics of David Bowie's Oh! You Pretty Things. "Gotta make way for the homo superior".

I think it is very apt.

Oh! you pretty things with lyrics

 

BioDegradable

Nov-18-2018 10:01 PM

BigDave

this is an intriguing and fascinating idea: to explore the possibility of what happens when David actually gifts humanity the goals his creator was seeking. What if he gifts the humans the ability to live more or less forever and therefore rids humanity from lots of their vices and doesn't look upon it as a lost cause.

How would such children of David be looked upon by the organic-classic children of the Engineers? I am sure there would be a lot of envy. And, the snowflake engineers would be probably offended, so to speak, for many reasons(just look what they preach wrt to procreation). This is a perfect setup to ponder and explore the suspense of a thought experiment that comes from the fact that when people are asked if they would like to live forever a lot would say - yay, and there would be alot of people, I assume, religious fundamentalists who would oppose such people. Why? Because they would instantly become totally useless, powerless and obsolete and retrospectively made look like idiots.

This is the classical setup of ignorance vs knowledge, technology vs archaism, disruption vs holding on to long rooted traditions. This topic, given a proper budget (a bit more than what Ridley is usually given, which is almost always less than $100m) could make a quality movie. But I am not sure it will work out economically - most of the market makers, ie, teens are not keen on such movies(just look at the tanking of BR2049 in the boxoffice). Besides, the Alien franchise is a diminishing proposition, economically.(especially, compared to SW, Pirates of the Caribbean, GoT and many others. Btw did you notice a shift to such thematic series from standalone movies? It has been around for many years now, to notice it :) ). I am afraid, all of the above entails a rather grim outlook. But no worries, most of the people who appreciate the beauty of Ridley's works are at that tender age where in a little bit it won't matter at all to them, sadly.(if only I was given that pill that Peter Weyland was looking for)...

Anyways, BigDave, thanks for one of the better threads on here for a long time. Makes me wonder why so many speculations about what's next wrt to Alien movies. Is it the fact that there is this unspoken yet widely accepted view that we are done with the series and simply because there has not been such an announcement(of funeral) from Disney/Fox are daydreaming perhaps nostalgically?

 

How true was Weyland, huh? All this, all this art, beauty is utterly meaningless in the face of the single most important question :) (sorry for imprecise and rather interpretive quote)

Leto

Nov-19-2018 6:57 AM

Plot will better if David focused on creating and developing humans and almost abandoned his experiments with xenomorphs. Then some of the "new people" find his secret laboratory → find ovomorphs → get facehuggered → David don't know about this → and then xenomorph turns David's colony into the bloody hell.

After all Engineers arrived on Origae-6 and find dead place. They are attacked by xenomrophs. Some Engineers die, but the last kills xenomorphs and put ovomorphs on the ship. They go to LV-223, but the pilot get facehuggered and ship crash on LV-426. Thats all.

BigDave

Nov-19-2018 7:15 AM

Indeed Batchpool that song does pick up on a Good Point,its something to ponder and something that has been covered in various Sci-Fi TV/Movies,  which is at what point would we be surpassed by either our own Creation, our own attempts at Self-Evolution.   There is the Threat of what happens when we play GOD and tamper with what is Natural with our Scientific Advancements.

Mankind has evolved over the years, but most of this is down to knowledge and technology.  It is some of the Evolutionary Advantages that we had over say other Homo Species including the Neanderthals that we could adapt and change to a every changing World.  Genetically we can argue we have not changed much for Tens of Thousands of years.  It is our Brains and Intelligence and the passing down of learned Knowledge and means to record this that allows us to Progress.  Left Naturally we cant really see our Race Genetically Evolve over the next Few Thousand Years..  But Scientifically through every increasing knowledge and advancements and passing on of knowledge i think its fair to say the POTENTIAL for Genetic Evolution is there via Artificial Means.

This fits very well with Peter Weyland and his Achievements, where he had all but Cured Cancer and i think if we are allowed to Throw Out the Moral Compass we could intervene and manipulate Embryos so that Children Born will be free from Genetic Defects, we could Cure many kinds of Diseases i think if we are allowed great investment and time and to forget the Moral Implications then in 50-100 years a lot of the World Aliments could be a thing of the past, were we would LIVE much longer and its only the Toxins we put in our body by out choices as far as Food/Drink, Recreational Habits and Environmental Pollution and Famine that would reduce our Biological Clock.

If we even further throw out the Moral Compass then its possible that we could Engineer Perfect Humans well attempt to, we could ONE day Program the Genome of ourselves to gain/turn on desirable  traits.   Knowledge and Practice gets you so far in LIFE but not every Human that is Born could Train to Match or Surpass the Speeds of say Usain Bolt and if we Genetically Modify Embryos we could incorporate traits that would allow for those Humans to be more Taller, Physically Fitter, Faster, Stronger, more Intelligent  but even so it is then down to the upbringing and training/knowledge that allows these Gifted Enhanced Humans to take advantage of their Genetic Advantages.

There is the Potential Real World Danger if you Engineer Humans who have the Natural Potential to be say 50% Stronger, Fitter, Smarter and Quicker and have a 50% Greater Life Expectancy and who are Engineered to be free from potential Defects and Ailments..

The Risk is that Eventually these Humans would go on to Higher Roles within Society, and if they can Procreate with each other and keep their Advanced Genetics, then the risk is that these Super Humans will expand in size of their numbers and RULE the World and ONE day view regular Humans as Obsolete.

What we could be left with such a Scenario is the Hubris of playing GOD and attempting to Perfect ourselves and Cheat Mortality.  And these are within the Themes of the Prequels.

Our Next Evolution that takes us that stage further from regular Humans, in terms of the superiority that Humans had over say Neanderthals would not Naturally happen for many Thousands even Tens of Thousands of years.... but it could potentially happen in Hundreds via Artificial Means as outlined in this Topic.   Engineered Super Humans would in effect be a kind of Artificial Intelligence.

Because in such a Scenario these Advancements would NOT naturally happen via regular Procreation, only certain Enhancements to a few individuals.   But via Genetic Engineering we could see Humans with the Physical Attributes like say the likes of Usian Bolt with the Capacity for Higher IQ like Albert Einstien and potentially even the Creation of Humans who are beyond even that.

These would be Artificially Modified Embryos they would be Superior, and i think its these themes that Ridley Scott is a Fan of, and indeed its these kinds of Changes that could be the difference between those Planet 4 Engineers and those in Prometheus.

Other Potential Threats to Artificially Manipulating or Creation would come from not only eventually Synthetic Beings like DAVID but also potentially trying to Enhance/Evolves Apes that could lead to a Planet of the Apes Scenario.  And again these would be consider AI

I think RS is trying to show that AI does not mean Robots!

But if i expand upon Evolution.... i feel a Potential Far Future stage of Human Evolution would be yet more Artificial i think we need to ASK?

If we are allowed and throw out the Moral Compass then how far can we Evolve the Human Genomes?  How much can we Manipulate our Bodies to Live for Longer and be Immune from Disease and Defects?

Is there only a Limit to which you can achieve, and the Pursuit of Biological Immortality has its LIMITS?

This is when Transcendence comes into play.... the ONE way we can Cheat Death is via the ability to Upload our Soul, if our Soul is our Emotions and Memories.  This could be accomplished in Mainly TWO ways... (well maybe eventually).

1) The use of a Biological Body, even if this Body has Genetic Advancements... think of the Plot to Blade Runner but with Greater Life-Spans say 150 years due to the Genetic Modification..  With the Ability to Transfer the SOUL as we see in the Movie The 6th Day so that for those selected few, they could have Superior more Lasting Bodies, but then the Ability to Transfer their Souls to another Duplicate Enhanced Body should the current body be coming to the end of its Life-Span or Suffered Serious Damage.

2) The Transfer of their Souls into Synthetic Bodies, like what David and Walter have.

These as well as a lot in this post are subjects i was touching upon with my Prometheus 2 idea i abandoned, i feel such things FIT well with what Ridley Scott was asking about Creation, Immortality etc.  I pondered and i took this route with my ideas, that the ULTIMATE Goal for Weyland was to CHEAT Death... if he could have Achieved Option 1 or Option 2 then this would be the GREATEST of Achievements and Weyland WOULD-NOT need to be Chasing Gods to save his Mortal Soul.

Prometheus introduced us to those Engineers, who at concept were a Race who Genetically Engineered and Advanced themselves, at a Hubris of losing the ability to Procreate.... and yet while they may live for Thousands of Years they will Age (slower rate) and are MORTAL as the Prequels Progressed some of this was changed, and we have the reveal of the Original Planet 4 Engineers who only live for 150 years and can Procreate.... you cant help but wonder are those Prometheus Engineers a Creation by those Planet 4 Engineers like David is to Weyland or the Nexus Replicants are to Tyrell?

Or are they Engineers who pursued the Self-Perfecting ways to Engineer themselves this way?

Could the Potential Hubris of Rebellion and being over-taken by these Superior Engineers had been something that has happened in the Franchise, and maybe a Good Reason to Turn their backs on the Old Ways of using their Knowledge and Technology in the aim of Perfection and Immortality?

It all fits within the Themes of what Ridley Scott may have been trying to Cover..

The Problem is these kinds of Plot STRAY far from the Xenomorph and ALIEN... but this was the purpose of the Prequels with the Direction of Prometheus it was NOT intended to be a ALIEN movie but something New set in the same Universe.

I do wonder if some of the Elements i have mentioned in this Post and the Original Post are what Ridley Scott was going to explore/expand upon with his Sequels?  At least to some Degree.  They are certainly things i was touching upon in my ideas for a Prometheus 2/3 and then Alien Covenant sequel ideas.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-19-2018 7:31 AM

"How true was Weyland, huh? All this, all this art, beauty is utterly meaningless in the face of the single most important question "

Certainly one of the Philosophical Elements at play, one that connects directly with the Ozymandias Poem... which is A King has his Reign and then he Dies... and then even the Kings Legacy, all they have made, Monuments in their Honor... Eventually Thousands and Thousands of years after its all Meaningless once they all become Dust! 

It is via our Deeds, that we pass on a Legacy, be it your Famous for Art, Music being a Icon a King, a Prominent Figure in Society... eventually its the Records and Passing on of the Achievements that LIVE-ON when they Die... Eventually these will disappear.   Another way we Create a Legacy is via Children... whom we can pass on our Deeds and Memories so our Stories can be passed on and on.

This could be a driving Cause for why Weyland Created David, and allowed him such Free-will and to be his Personnel Android.  its maybe WHY David would want to Create for himself, and a Good Reason for IF he indeed would attempt to Engineer those Human Embryos.

"How would such children of David be looked upon by the organic-classic children of the Engineers? I am sure there would be a lot of envy"

That would be very interesting to see...  i could expand a little on your comment by asking what do the Engineers be that Planet 4, those in Prometheus or even a Race of them who are Ancestors to Both...   How would they view David and Walter, Superior Humanoid Creations by their own Creation (Humans) where the Engineers Creation (Humans) have Created something more Perfect and Immortal than they have achieved?

How would they view that Creations (David) very own Creation the Xenomorph, especially if David has created/perfected what they had started to do on LV-223?

When looking at the Perfection of Davids, compared to the Deacon, and when looking at the Perfection of David too, you can almost imagine what the Engineers or their Creators would think of both David and his Xenomorph.

If only there was a way to Create the Perfect Amalgamation of the BOTH?  Would this lead to the 1979 Xenomorph?  Its certainly the PATH i would take.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-19-2018 7:43 AM

@Leto

Maybe that could be what could happen?  Its certainly similar to what i was going for with my Alien Covenant Sequel.

IF the Engineers Created the Deacon and Experiments on LV-223 as a Tool to Eradicate Unruly Creation...  then IF we have David wish to Engineer his own Humans or indeed Rule over those Colonist, then maybe he would NEED something to keep them in Check and have something that offers Protection against Rebellion.

What IF those LV-223 Experiments were the Engineers version of the FLOODS and Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and we can ask WHY did God do this... it is maybe not Far off WHY the Engineers did what they did.

What ever World David Creates.... he would maybe need his own Retribution and instead of the FLOODS maybe his comes from his Xenomorph?

He could reserve a Forbidden Place were these Horrors are Stored, and Warn those inhabitants about keeping away from such a Forbidden Place and this is what i planned with my Alien Covenant Sequel...  Those who Disobey or Curiosity get the better of them will Discover the Path down the River Strix leads to HELL!  If they should Survive this and pass the Hounds of Hell (Xenomorph) it is there where they will Uncover the Horrific Truth and Discover the Perpetual Labor Machine that has become of Daniels!

Those who follow Davids Rule and Guidance, would often Dare not Disobey...... but a incoming Human Party who have not been Influenced would indeed let Curiosity get the better of them.  

Curiosity Killed the Cat! and Once the Cat is out the Bag, then maybe All Hell Breaks Loose!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Nov-19-2018 8:06 AM

"How would they view David and Walter, Superior Humanoid Creations by their own Creation (Humans) where the Engineers Creation (Humans) have Created something more Perfect and Immortal than they have achieved?"

"How would they view that Creations (David) very own Creation the Xenomorph, especially if David has created/perfected what they had started to do on LV-223?"

 

This is not a questions. We ALREADY KNOW thoughts and actions of the Engineers. Look on this situation in Prometheus. Engineer not delighted, on the contrary - he is furious!

"HOW DARE THIS HUMANS CREATE A BETTER LIFE THAN WE CAN!: - thoughts of Engineer. Engineer destroy (as he thinks) android and kill Weyland.

Engineers will not admired David and his xenomorphs. They will try to destroy them all!

BioDegradable

Nov-19-2018 8:11 AM

BigDave,

...How would they view David and Walter, Superior Humanoid Creations by their own Creation (Humans) where the Engineers Creation (Humans) have Created something more Perfect and Immortal than they have achieved?...

 

Ha, we don't need to guess this - I imagine David was a little upset about engineer's treatment of his. There is little doubt that the engineer had no idea who/what David was after Weyland's introduction of David to him. David, quite a narcissist, was initially oblivious to what they could find on LV-223. There is hardly anything as good as him as far as he is concerned. Then, however, he was amazed by the "organic" stuff. Recall, he, David is not organic himself, he is partly organic, that is his decorum is organic, but his essential parts are completely synthetic - and the organic parts are there so that humans feel comfortable(rather, not alienated) about him. For example his hair grows. So, when David, no doubt a superior life form to humans, a perfection of sort, found out that organic life forms can be as advanced as engineer tech suggested his jaw dropped so to speak - he was impressed by their tech. His expectation peaked. He was about to see alternative life form, perhaps as perfect as himself. Only after a while, his amazement toned down a bit - just recall his remarks - "remarkably human" when they saw the head in the room and his later remark "mortal after all" when the reanimated head exploded in the lab. He was upset because here is the amazing tech these guys possessed, much more advanced than he ever saw before...not that he can't imagine creating such stuff on his own, but still stuff that humans never imagined was possible. But then these species were still just only tiny bit better than humans. Underwhelming. In fact in the movie they had 100% identical DNA to humans. Sure, they were taller, more developed etc - Just think about the human if he was never hindered by any diseases and malice - arguably humans would live for 150-200 years. Just a short while ago people lived up to 50 years old. Before invention of penicillin the average lifespan was even lower than that. Again, David's expectations were rising and falling all the time. But he was completely disgusted by them as species, when he understood their ways. Being torn apart by one of them also didn't help. Why he was disgusted? Well I guess he learned about their traditions. We were shown their ways of living on their planet - it all looked like roman empire with a bit of religion in it. At this point recall what the movie is about - technology(fire), advancement vs old ways. At this point, to imagine what David thought about them, just ask yourself if David would ever pray in a church, mosque or celebrate mazal-tov?

 

I am re-iterating this for the sake of clarity of my view wrt to David. He is perfect as a creation(compared to humans, species who managed to create him, representatives of the most advanced civilization he had known historically). This doesn't mean there are no other forms of creatures that are perfect, as he probably expected. Btw, the tech that engineers possessed is not something unreachable to David himself - given enough time he could attain same level of technology, that is to say, all the engineers had is static knowledge, and David being perfect a genius, he has dynamic learning ability to learn and perhaps even better engineers, a specie who was apparently there for eons. And he bettered them by apparently creating the xenomorph using the engineer tech. He could read operate their ships in now time - there is no doubt David is superior to them.

So the message, as I see and interpret from the movie is that David is as good as it gets. Basically a god. Something Weyland knew and was jealous about. Now, is he hostile? I mean David. Does he have a chip on his shoulder? It looks like it is the case. Just recall those scenes where Weyland always maintained David lacked the soul. Recall the suspense of the sequences and you could see it in his eyes(grats to Fassbender btw) that he hated these stupid and patronizing remarks. I believe Ridley was showing us, the audience that David was not quite the super-rational being he is supposed to be - he had feelings! He is no robot. He was emotional. He had feelings, genuine emotions to Shaw(love, interest, curiosity, humor, flirting and all that...he even tried sex by his own admission). He certainly experienced contempt(and envy) towards Holloway. Ridley was exploring the premise what if AI is emotional ( we are fuckkked! ).

But was David always so hostile to other species? Was it always inevitable that he would always hate humans? NO! Recall how gentle and curious he was towards the neomorph whom Oram killed. Recall how he was genuinely upset. ("It trusted me"). He was wanting to make friends with that creature. He was curious about it, even though it was organic and it was not perfect. I conclude hereby that David valued alternative life forms. Hence I always wondered how he would treat humans if they were not such pieces of shit towards him. Recall Weyland who treated him as a personal slave(which David forgave when Weyland died - when he wished a good journey, that was genuine! He told Walter as much - he pitied him at the end. And he had no reason to lie to Walter about this - think about it, what he would gain by doing so)

David is not just a mad robot as one upset lady here maintains - he is not a one dimensional character as many believe. He is not as mad as box of frogs. All that perception about David is a result of overlooking his character and too much projecting. People just wanted to box him in to be a generic robot. Which he never was. In other words, people disregarded completely Ridley's premise and just didn't understand what he was portraying. Bad for them.

Well, what can I say? I am glad I saw it. And it is a pity many do not see this. Because we won't see another movie - of what kind of world he would create with pristine human embryos.

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-19-2018 8:41 AM

I am not against something new and I think that the Engineers might be the way to go but they must be done in a way that is interesting. Hopefully they will focus more on the Engineers than David, I think that David is cooked. Actually it might be interesting to see how they react when they see what David did on Planet 4.

"what kind of a World would David build?"

We have already had two movies about David, time to move on. Keep him in the background at least.

“Creation becomes Sentient and has Freewill and Knowledge it could be bad new for their Creator."

Fine but keep in in another franchise

“Some interpret AI as only being a Robot, when Artificial Intelligence is anything that is not Natural or that has Evolved by Artificial Intervention.”

Yeah but since he is mostly interested in David that might be how the movie ends up.

“… so this opens the Door for anything that is Engineered from its Natural State could be considered AI.”

OK but if that is the case they need to explain what they mean by AI otherwise it will be thought of as being a robot movie.

The themes knowledge and free will are not bad in themselves it is just that they focus too much on David, and he is a sadistic robot with almost no counterpart (since the human characters lack in how they are written) so it becomes a robot-movie no matter if that is what Scott intended or not.

“if you look at how we are Today, we would be looked down on as Shameful by many Ancient Cultures...”

We have better technology but we still lack spiritually.

“.... what could be his plans for the Colony?”

Probably act as a dictator where they are supposed to obey his orders. I judge from how I saw him in Alien Covenant by the way.

“and so are some ideas from his Alien Covenant Sequel being carried over to Raised by Wolves?”

That could be the case but I am not interested in that because he goes on about his AI and androids kind of thing. The androids get the most attention and I do not like that.

“we could incorporate traits...”

OK but that also asks the question what we want to achieve right? Then who is supposed to decide about it? Should it be the majority or a minority? What to do if it goes wrong (evolutionary failure)  to put it? Who would be to blame? As you can see there is a lot to ask about this.

“These would be Artificially Modified Embryos they would be Superior, and i think its these themes that Ridley Scott is a Fan of, and indeed its these kinds of Changes that could be the difference between those Planet 4 Engineers and those in Prometheus.”

OK but what we have been shown this far is that it is too much about David no matter of Scott’s intentions. I am just saying what we have seen this far in the prequels but at the same time I think that the differences between the Planet 4 Engineers and the one in Prometheus is interesting. Maybe there is a way that they will explain those differences if there is another movie but then have it more about the Engineers and less about David.

BigDave

Nov-19-2018 8:48 AM

@Leto

Indeed we saw this with Prometheus, the Question remains as far as HOW would those Planet 4 Engineers had taken to David and Dr Shaw?

Prometheus and especially the deleted scenes, seemed to show the Engineer was intrigued with many things, he seemed to take Pity on David and he was upset with Weyland because his Actions show what the Engineers view most of Mankind have become... and they cant be allowed to continue.....  The Theatrical Release did try and paint those Engineers as just being Pissed Off Muscle Bound Freaks.

But certainly they could be very upset at Discovering what has happened, they could few David and is Creation as a Insult, they could even be a little Jealous the Question comes down to what they would do... Destroy David and his Creation... it could make Sense..

But in light of this Scenario we have to ask where the Xenomorph Stands?   Engineers being Angry because David and the Xenomorph are knock offs of their Humans and Xenomorphs could be wishful thinking!

We cant rule that out..... but maybe they would take the Stance that David did with Planet 4 and USE the Engineers Bio-Weapon against them... and then Perfect Something from it.  A Large Theme is HUBRIS and IF those Engineers had decided to not play God and Create Humans then maybe they would need to try and Create a Bio-Weapon to Destroy us. 

Maybe those Planet 4 Engineers turned their back on all of this, but look where that left them..... those who Return will likely look on the ways of those beings as FLAWED and its back to what those LV-223 Engineers were doing.

Which must come at the Cost to them (Space Jockey). i think most can only HOPE the Space Jockey is a Engineer or something related... and then maybe its likely if this is the case that the Space Jockey had attempted to USE or Obtain the Xenomorph.   I think a Reveal the Xenomorph Eggs are a Space Jockey Ancient Weapon and/or the Derelict has been on LV-426 for a VERY long time... is Wishful Thinking now...

In Hindsight they should not have gone the Curve-ball Route of Alien Covenant.  But it seems RS has plans to expand on other stuff and not the Xenomorph.

This Topic i tried to Ponder, what could be meant by a Sequel that would not be about the Xenomorph, one that would be about AI and what kind of a WORLD that David would create...   And then Ponder is the Limbo Status of the Sequel, and Raised by Wolves... Ridleys attempts to show the ideas he had, because he Fears HIS ideas for a Sequel will NEVER happen?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

Nov-19-2018 9:02 AM

Thoughts_Dreams, consider this alternative view:

Fascination about engineers is frankly a road to nowhere, as their origin is not underpinned by any contemporary (far-fetched) scientific idea. They are totally thought out beings. A fantasy of a eight year old. Which is completely unlike to a story about human created sentient beings, genetically engineered species and all else in this vein. That is, what if engineers is a dead-end cul-de-sac. Pure imagination and poor one at that. I wonder if you ever considered that?

In other words, if you insist on a story about them - Ridley could storyboard a ... marvel style comic book for you and call it engineer movie for those willing to pay.

You see, at least for me, a movie is interesting when it explores and poses interesting questions which are grounded somewhat in reality. In other words, to be honest, I am not interested in sci-fi movie say about a spider man. That would be a total BS. A terminator is much more realistic thriller. You see, if you insist on and on about engineers you might as well be better off just watching Pirates of Caribean, which is total trash.

^IMO.

A L I E N was also complete junk from a certain point of view, but at the time it was a highly topical movie executed brilliantly. It was produced at the time where space travel was all the rage. Exploring other planets was a thing. And here Ridley produced gripping thriller with a horrifying beast. And it was executed brilliantly. And the original movie didn't need a follow up. I would go as far and say the beast was cooked after the original movie. Everything else was unnecessary. But since it was making money for movie studios Ridley didn't oppose it and let them have other movies. I believe that is why he created Prometheus, which was not about A L I E N and not about the beast - he wanted to explore new stuff, because all those aliens where cooked - and they are!

Leto

Nov-19-2018 9:43 AM

BigDave

 

I know, you don't like this idea, but i think that prequels must go far away from Derelict, LV-426 and connection with Alien. It must be stand alone story without connection with Alien 1979.

 

And that's why.

I think time-line has very little time for Alien. Suppose that in 2110 David arrived to Origae-6. 1-2 years his will be develop this place for his need. We have 2112. Then tests, experiments with humans and, maybe xenomorphs. Also 1-2 years. We have 2114. Then David created his world with first generation humans (fast-growning). This is a VERY forcing events. We have... 2119. And then David live as GOD for his humans... How many? Three years! Only three years! Before 2122. There is no scale, no place, and no time to feel the world of David. David's kingdom must develop over hundreds years. Even tens years is very small! But we have only 3 years (with forcing events, don't forget). 2122 is the last time when Engineers can arrive. And then - movie events. Turns out that Derelict crash literally - yesterday! And the next day arrived Nostromo.

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-19-2018 9:43 AM

Biodegradable:

I understand what you mean when you say that their existence is not supported by any scientific support. At the same time this is science-fiction so everything does not have to be 100% accurate although a lot of it should.

“They are totally thought out beings.”

Yeah they are a kind of what if kind of thing but that is what I like about them (among other things). To me I like the idea of what would happen if were were manufactured by non-human beings and they would get mad at the way mankind is going now. Story-wise it is interesting but not very scientifically accurate but then the SJ wasn’t either and I have not seen many complain about the SJ per se.

“I wonder if you ever considered that?”

I have always looked at the Engineers as pure fiction, at least until we get any data that suggests that those life-forms live for real.

"You see, at least for me, a movie is interesting when it explores and poses interesting questions which are grounded somewhat in reality."

Sure, that is why I like the first three movies because there you can see ideas about what might happen when humans get together to survive a common threat.

You can also try to forget the Engineers and just think about how do humans act today and if we were created by a life-form why would they like to get rid of us. The interesting thing is not the life-form but the reasons might be connected to how we act today, that is what I find interesting.

"You see, if you insist on and on about engineers you might as well be better off just watching Pirates of Caribean, which is total trash."

I look at the Engineers as a way to tell the human story, as a part of it. I do not want them to be the total story so to speak and yeah I am not a huge fan of Pirates of the Carribean.

I do not think that Alien was junk, I like that thing about what happens when people are faced with threats that they are not prepared for. I like to explore the idea of a corporations that puts profits first even if that means killing the employees (something that is kind of rooted in reality). Looking at it you could say that the company was also a threat combined with the creature.

"And the original movie didn't need a follow up. I would go as far and say the beast was cooked after the original movie. Everything else was unnecessary."

Not sure about that, I like Aliens and Alien 3 also but then things changed for the worse.

"I believe that is why he created Prometheus, which was not about A L I E N and not about the beast - he wanted to explore new stuff, because all those aliens where cooked - and they are!"

There are things that I like about Prometheus, I liked David and Janek. The Engineers were interesting, and the landscapes and ships looked good but it lacked when it came to characters.

BigDave

Nov-19-2018 3:38 PM

"Well, what can I say? I am glad I saw it. And it is a pity many do not see this. Because we won't see another movie - of what kind of world he would create with pristine human embryos"

@BioDegradable

I enjoyed your post, indeed these are exactly the things i took from David by the post were discussing about the Evolution of Mankind and how we could Engineer our Bodies, be Immune to Diseases and maybe slow down the Decay of our Organs Life-spans but this will have some kind of Limitation.  Unless you can Engineer a Genome/Body to be able to Self Repair and Regenerate.   Were as a Synthetic Body for the most part would not be subject to limitations that Organic Mater has. (apart from Regenerative Organic Mater) and so when David sees the Engineers are Organic and Mortal After all, then indeed he would realize its only their Knowledge and Technology that sets them apart.  (Strength too especially with LV-223 Engineers)  what we see from Alien Covenant and the Advent is that David sees these Mortal Beings may have realized the limitations of their Psychical Bodies and maybe attempted to Improve themselves and had Tools, Knowledge and Technology that these beings could not appreciate or control maybe as much as David could, and when they choose to Abandon some of their Ways... it seems David feels they are NOT Worthy of the Technology and Knowledge they had.  A Question is were the Engineers Taught/Handed this Knowledge/Technology or had that Stolen or Acquired it?  I think this is one of the Interesting Questions to ponder.

I do think we can see that David may feel he is more Worthy of this Knowledge and Technology and it would be interesting to see to what END he could use it.   I certainly think it would be interesting to see David try and Evolve/Engineer more than just his Xenomorph.

And i totally agree with how you noticed things like how David Reacted to the Neomorph and so he is not just Hostile to all Life-Forms he just seems to have a Contempt and Dislike for Humanity and the Engineers. I would say he even has some element of Respect for what the Engineers were and could have been, but had LOST that respect in regards to maybe how they had changed their ways.  And so i certainly agree with Davids Emotions and how his interactions with others has shaped him.  He certainly not just a Robot intent on Killing like some kind of Terminator T-800

"OK but if that is the case they need to explain what they mean by AI otherwise it will be thought of as being a robot movie."

I agree maybe it would need to be made more clear in the Next Movie, rather than trying to interpret Ridley Scotts comments. I think it depends how each person can interpret what is being shown.  It could do with a little less ambiguity.

I think RS is trying to show us Creation and to ask what determines Creation, what makes a Life-Form. And what is AI, and to show that AI does not mean a Advanced Computer,   if they go the route of David Genetically Evolving the Human Embryos into Super Humans then they would in effect be seen as a AI because they are a Intelligence that has been Artificially Created/Engineered.   But maybe not everyone would see it as so...  Maybe a way to bring it more HOME would be if David could Engineer the Perfect Superior Humanoid Organic Body and then UPLOAD his Soul into it.... would he still be seen as a AI then? 

Ridley Scott seems to be asking Questions and trying to Blur the Lines between what constitutes a Creation, a AI, God, a Soul and Immortality.   In essence we are Machines, Biological Machines, but we are Grown Genetically and we can Procreate.  Once a AI like David can have Emotions and Feelings like a Human then how much different is he apart from not being ORGANIC and Naturally Created.  Another thing RS likes to touch on is and was aiming for is to Question what is a SOUL?

Are we the Creation by a Divine Magical Being and we are granted this Spiritual Soul that will Live on in another Pane of Existence when we DIE if so then what is this Existence... does it have NO Physical Form... are we just Energy with our Memories and Emotions?

Or are we the Random Product of Evolution and when we DIE we are just Food for Worms and there is NOTHING.  We dont know how far down such a Rabbit Hole that RS was taking us, it seems he is trying to tread the line between Both and its one of the Great Mysteries.

Then we look at AI in the same context.... If a Soul constitutes Memories and Emotions that shape the kind of Person they become... then WHO knows what becomes of us and this Soul.... but with a AI who has such Memories and Emotions that can be Stored in a AI Program and Computer, and thus this SOUL can be uploaded then in effect the AI has a Eternal Soul so to speak.

The Apex of Human Evolution could be Artificial when ONE day we can Upload our Souls into a AI, into some other Form of Energy/Storage and have it Transferred to a NEW Body or even some day not even needed a Physical Body at all.

But i agree that these ideas are steering away from what MOST would expect from a ALIEN Movie which most would consider to be about Xenomorphs, but i feel the Xenomorph is more cooked than the AI aspect.  I think they need to use the AI and Xenomorph as not the Main Focus but allow them to be used to draw some connection and context to Creation and Humans and Engineers and other layers of Creation.   But who knows if this potentially cant be explored by the NEXT Layer especially if this shows David goes on to Create/Attempt to a Perfect Organic Humanoid.

One VERY Valid Point you raise often Thoughts_Dreams is Human Characters and IF we explore a route like in OT, then its a case of could Fans Connect to a New Version of Humans that are Engineered or would they be seen only as Robots?

I feel any Well-Written Story and None Original Human Characters could work if they get done correct. Some people may never be able to connect with what is not Born of Flesh and Blood by Natural Human Procreation... But certainly the more Human any New Creations or other Races that are introduced then the more chance we could connect to them.

But you would have to introduce Legitimate Human Characters and the Miss-Treatment of the None Natural Human Characters by Humans could lead us to connect and sympathies with the None-Natural Original Humanoids.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-19-2018 4:08 PM

"I know, you don't like this idea, but i think that prequels must go far away from Derelict"

On the Contrary ;)

Every part of you reply Leto i can Totally Agree with, my view on the matter is what RS may be trying to do with David and Creation and Engineers is Interesting.... to take what i ponder in the OT about what if he tries to Evolve and Enhance the Human Embryos and then have them believe David is their God/Creator is very interesting.

The Problem is that with these PLOTS we also have the Fact the Prometheus Sequel is now a ALIEN Prequel.. which means it is likely that it will follow a Path that Leads to ALIEN and the Space Jockey and that Cargo... and all they are doing in that context is Joining the Dots.

This comes from simply the U-Turn to give us a ALIEN Literal set of Prequels and the Xenomorph Origin, instead of having David create something a bit different but by looking HOW he created it, would give us clues to HOW maybe the Original Xenomorph was Created.

I would rather them NOT go the Prequel Route... for pretty much every reason you stated... it has to be Forced now within the Time Restraints... 17+ years until ALIEN and by setting up a Prequel to connect to ALIEN, then a Sequel to that which may cover a whole load of other things and keep the Xenomorph Minimal or not have any... that then has to lead to a FINAL Movie where the Xenomorph has to be Forced back... i feel is just a MISTAKE!

I would rather had taken the PLOT and had it that David had traveled to the Engineer Home-world that is NO-WHERE near our side of the Galaxy, like have it say 15'000 light years away or at least so FAR that its set in Reaches of Space that Mankind has not even touched at the time of ALIENS

It could have taken David NOT too long to arrive at PARADISE they could even have By-Passed what happened for Many Years after he arrived and so even have the Plot the Same as Alien Covenant... ONLY that Paradise is VERY FAR away...  David arrives here way before ALIEN

But then show us the incoming Humans are from the more Distant Future after ALIENS... why maybe even AFTER or not to far prior to the events of Alien Resurrection, were the COVENANT are escaping the HELL HOLE that Earth has become... It should be shown the Covenant has left Earth around the 2200-2300 mark and that it is more Advanced as far as Speeds of Travel than the Ships in ALIEN and maybe ALIENS and then we have the Covenant Mission take a Much Much longer time.

They arrive Thousands of Light Years away from Earth and suffer the Neutrino Burst and then discover Dr Shaws signal which would seem EVEN MORE out of Place so far away.... they then go off to the Location this is coming from and Discover a World more Suitable (so it seems) than their Destination they are part of the way towards.

Most Elements of Alien Covenant could be carried over, just have the Xenomorphs David creates be something a bit more different, or indicate by David that the Engineers had made this Black Goo from or to create something they used as a Bio-Weapon and that it was Far from Perfect.. but David has Perfected it.

This means David does-not create the Original Xenomorph, and so the Derelict remains a Potential Ancient Mystery.  It leaves a Sequel open to explore things that the Alien Covenant Sequel may have or my OT and NOT have to have it Forcefully connected to ALIEN

It allows for a long time to pass for David to be building his World before the Engineers Turn up... and so not a Small Time Period to Force stuff into..

It allows for a Aftermath WAR OF THE WORLDS where the Fall-Out could bring our Engineers to our TURF and have this happen after the events of Alien Resurrection and allow the Franchise to continue by introducing the Engineers and other Horrors and NOT worry about Conflicting with the Original Franchise.

But ALAS we have what we have, mainly because in order to Shoe-Horn in the Plot of David being the Creator (Xenomorph), within a Period of 27 years from Prometheus to Alien... then the events had to be set more CLOSER to HOME.

A Mistake.... but even if they went for a different take like i explain here.... at some point and for some Fans they would STILL want the Xenomorph Origins and Space Jockey Event Explained or Shown.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-19-2018 4:24 PM

"I look at the Engineers as a way to tell the human story, as a part of it"

I agree i think the Engineers Plot could have potentially ran very deep, and interesting and if its not ALIEN enough then you can simply introduce another Run on the Ladder, and explore something different that is above the Engineers.

Prometheus opened up the Franchise Universe... Alien Covenant kind of closed it up a little.

Are these Engineers only involved around Earths Past, and the Zeta 2 System?  Ridley Scotts comments seem to indicate not, and their Ships Navigation Systems show OTHER Galaxies... why have Maps/Charts to other Galaxies if they cant Travel there?   LV-223/426 and likely Planet 4 are all within 50LY of Earth... LV-223/426 Certainly within 40LY but the nearest Galaxy to our own is like 64 Thousand Times Further than LV-426

And the Engineers had maps to a good number of Galaxies so you look at the amount of SPACE that is... so we can ask WHERE Else are these Engineers, WHAT Else have they created and WHERE and WHO Created THEM?

What Conflicts have they been involved with in the Universe, are all the Engineers on the Same Page? or even if in the Past have their been different Interests and Agendas... NOT all Humans even now, never-mind in History have NEVER been on the same page.. otherwise there would been NO Wars or Conflicts.

By having the Engineers Home-world on our Door Step it has been a mistake, it closes everything in too much... by having David create the Xenomorph it makes it less ALIEN but in going for that Route they had little choice in making the Engineers Reside on our Door Step. Which diminishes the Potential Plot that Prometheus opened up.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

Nov-19-2018 4:51 PM

BigDave

...Written Story and None Original Human Characters could work if they get done correct. Some people may never be able to connect with what is not Born of Flesh and Blood by Natural Human Procreation...

this has been done many times already I suppose. Just recall the Matrix. Did it kill your interest when you learned that Neo was not conceived the natural way in Xeon(I am having a laugh here. It was supposed to be Zion, but here the word "xeno" and its alteration xeon is more relevant)

As far as being able to feel for alternate version of humans, sure there is this thing called empathy we are supposed to have. For instance how long it took for people to get behind and support hobbits? And then did some people consider hobbits(some) more worthy than human(some) characters? Ie whom you liked more, Pippen/Mary vs Denethor?

So I would argue that emotional support could go either way, wrt to organic humans vs engineered ones(case in point BR, BR2049) - it all depends on the story and how characters are developed. There are movies where you feel more towards anti-heroes, because of the way they were portrayed.

Back to Prometheus and David. Remind yourselves how admirably David looked upon Shaw and he was letting her get away with her totally idiotic belief portrayed in the movie. I mean the scene where she asked back for her cross, after witnessing her supposed to be gods/engineers shown to be totally unworthy and violent creatures. Just so that it doesn't get lost, what happened is this : she believed in divine conception of humans by gods, who btw left an invitation. She was probably thinking they knew about heaven and hell and she probably would grant you that they, engineer-gods pooped with candy. Then, finally, when she meets her makers - all that is shattered. Her belief is shattered or at least shown to be quite a naive set of unfounded of beliefs. But Shaw's character with the stages of character building events she experienced( she lost her mother, father, Charlie ) took her so far. It was portrayed that she would just persevere and get tougher after being shown that her gods are barbarians meaning death(indiscriminate) for no good reason(the fellow woke up 2000 years later, and was still going to carry out his plan, not bothering about what happened to those living on earth).

So Shaw was shaken to her core, she lost everything. Even her belief is shown to be a joke. Yet, after a short despair, with the helping hand(David) she was willing to go on the exploration mission further, seek the questions she had. (She knows who created humans, but who created them, those engineers?). This is quite robotic, right? She didn't ask to go back to Earth to the "lovely" humans, instead she wanted to pursue the thrill of exploration/curiosity. A characteristic trait of David. (so is she a robot then? Waaaa, Shaw is a robot...as many where objecting about David). She still demanded to have her cross. At this point, David was amused, but let her have it. "Hmmm" he thought - "there is something in humans that I might not have, some irrationality, which seemingly not only doesn't make them weaker but gives them incredible strength. That is, this irrationality, illusion not only doesn't hurt them but seemingly allows them to carry on". Which is total BS of course, as delusions, unfounded ones at that are only source of frustration in future. But if you can make good use of it, (perhaps with some short despair which your delusion might entail) then go ahead and use it. That is what David let Shaw have, when he told her where her cross were. He could easily told her he got rid of it because he didn't see any value in it, but he didn't lie. Which is interesting because, if you now ask a question - will David grant his children ( or his embryos) freedom(which was never offered to him! Basically humans enslaved a god! Luckily Weyland actually granted him his freedom and willed Weyland corp to him - his access code was valid on Covenant ship. Recall "welcome back David" from MURTHUR) - the kind of freedom that he allowed Shaw, even if it is a freedom to believe delusions? The answer was yes once. He calculated once the answer to be YES. Why not the second time(or Nths time). So it leaves us in a pickle - what kind of world will he create. And incidentally what kind of role will Daniels play. What if he creates a world based on peace and gives those children all the beauty of knowledge he has to them. Would he not create the second era of renaissance? Will Daniels oppose such doctrine of David's and will she want to bring context of the past and wage ware on David in this case? Will she not be perceived to be evil witch from the past by those children of David's? Sadly we probably won't get to see those questions answered.

BigDave

Nov-19-2018 4:59 PM

The intentions of this Topic was to try and Gauge what Plot Ridley Scott could be baking up, certainly on context to how the next movie would not be about the Xenomorph but would be more about AI and maybe that can make people think they are going to DROP the Xenomorph and Brush it under the Carpet like Alien Covenant did with Dr Shaw, and that we would either be seeing a movie about purely David as the only AI and so a movie about AI means a movie just about David.. or concerns a movie more about AI would be about David and Loads of other Synthetics.

Maybe it could be... i mean the Covenant could have other Walter Models that are activated when they need them to carry out the Hard Labor on Origae-6 or the Weyland-Yutani company could send a Ship with loads of Walters/Synthetics and in either case we see David takes control of them!

I dont think this is the case, when we look at what RS said about "what kind of a world would David create" especially when he then mentioned about AI and how the Replicants were AI... they were Biological Artificially Created beings and so by that comment it could imply that any AI in the World David would Build does-not have to be Davids and Walters.

David has taken to Genetic Engineering we need to pay attention to some of his comments regarding Dr Shaw... David had offered to Evolve her and together to Create a NEW Eden... but she refused!    You may think this means he wanted to Evolve her into a Hybrid Queen and have her create a World of Xenomorphs or Hybrids....

Maybe thats the case.....

What kind of World would David create?  he has Thousands of Subjects, but then if we see him Turn them into Xenomorphs then this would be a movie about Xenomorphs which RS claimed the next one would not be about.... if he Experimented on them to be Hybrids then again it depends how close they are to Xenomorphs before it becomes a ALIENY movie.

I think the Set-Up shows that they will go to Origae-6 and begin to build this NEW WORLD.. i also think David may likely do some Experimenting... so it was always interesting to Ponder what a Sequel would offer in that Context!

The Purpose of this Topic was to look at this and then consider WHY is RS making a SCI-FI Series about TWO Androids who are tasked with Raising Human Children on another World... and it got me wondering IF this is RS carrying over ideas he had for AC2 in fear that he would never get to tell them because a AC2 may never be made?

If you consider there could be some Truth to that... then it makes you wonder if the AC2 Sequel would have had David Experiment on those Human Embryos and Engineer his own kind of Humans who he would Raise... this fits with the Themes of Prometheus..

A flaw to this is there would be 10 years between when he arrives at Origae-6 until the events of ALIEN thats not a lot of time to see these Children Grow!   But then we could have them Engineered to Grow Fast

Nexus-6 Replicant Roy Batty was the appearance of a Human Male in their Mid/Late 30s yet it never took 35+ years to Grow Him.  So there is always a work around..

I would be willing to discus what other means could be meant by what kind of World David would Build as i think a lot of the other replies are things covered over and over... meaning No Disrespect.  Even discussing what else people think he could Create and what he would do prior and when he arrives at Origae-6

Looking on the Internet a large number think the Plot was David goes to LV-426 with the Colonist and Discovers the Derelict LOL  thats wishful thinking now....  But we would have ended up on LV-426 no doubt at the Climax of the Second Sequel to Prometheus or maybe Third...

And maybe there is NOTHING in the reasons for Raised by Wolves and it in no way touches close to anything that a AC sequel would cover. 

But i think Pondering if there is a connection and the Plot i mentioned in the OT and more in a NUT-SHELL in this post.. and assuming if this is correct does give us different take on what happens to this EDEN he Creates when the Real Humans and Engineers Turn Up...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-19-2018 5:17 PM

"So I would argue that emotional support could go either way, wrt to organic humans vs engineered ones(case in point BR, BR2049) - it all depends on the story and how characters are developed."

Bingo  this is what i was getting at and i love the Analogies you Gave, we can be drawn into Care about Humanoid Characters even if they ARE-NOT Humans if they are done right.

Regarding Dr Shaw and her Faith... once again something i have discussed before, something which Michelle was very interested in, the aspect of her Faith in Spite of Answers.  Further Revelations could have Shattered her Faith and Break Her and what kind of Character Arc we could have seen then.... Sadly we never did/will.

So indeed David seemed intrigued in Dr Shaws Faith in Spite of everything, he realized it was something that gave her the Strength and Will to Carry one..  a Attribute to Admire.

Faith and Religion could be interesting for David, he could indeed Ponder if it was Dr Shaws Faith that made her so KIND of Heart.  Another thing is Faith and Religion could be used to Control People to give a set of Rules, and a Faith/Goal to Aspire too.. Many None-Believers Start to believe in a little Faith when on Deaths Door

So we have the Potential for David to Exploit or even Come-up with his own Faith/Religion be it he wishes to teach the Biblical Account... or re-tell it in a way that suits his Agenda or even proclaim he is GOD!

And as you pointed out Regarding Daniels.... what happens to so many Sheep who have been lead Astray by the Shepard  By that what happens when the Colonist or Children lets say Discover that David was lying.

Everything is a Sham that he has passed on... you can Predict a Rebellion!  and Rebellion often comes at a Hubris of Free-will and Knowledge and even if this is NOT passed on.... what happens ONCE this is Gained or Granted by other means?

Is it time when the Lambs have gone astray to just leave them to the Wolves?

Indeed i was touching on similar with my Alien Ascension idea (AC2) and indeed the latter part of this post (Faith, Religion) and what happens when that is brought into Question... seems to be what Ridley Scotts  series Raised by Wolves is touching upon.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

Nov-19-2018 5:28 PM

Btw, no disrespect or offense at all meant in my posts ( if anyone is offended btw - I don't care ).

Now, I have to tell I am least bit interested in "the march towards the inevitable" - frankly, the machinations of how exactly the prequels lead to ALIEN do not bother me much. I am all for a good story posing some good questions. For instance I enjoyed Prometheus and AC. There are many things packed in them to dissect one way or the other. Perhaps there is even too much of such freedom in them to draw substantiated conclusions, which is frustrating at times. But this is understandable as this is all a product of fantasy of a few people, sometimes changing things as they go along(perhaps this is the default modus operandi indeed) this is not a mathematical theory checked independently by many over and over again. But it still shares that kind interesting and fascinating features with the beautiful and slick theories in math. It is all good entertainment anyway(or has been).

So, if the march towards inevitable actually constrains the story telling then I am of the opinion to hell with it - just tell the good story and don't bother with the details of 10 years there or not - some micro-discontinuities and inconsistencies do not matter. But this is arguable, to some, perhaps this is crucial. And I can live with that as well :)

 

As for religion and faith. In the movie we are shown that it is not an enduring thing. It never made humans live forever. There is nothing in it as far as David is concerned - it is all BS. Even if he will probably allow you to believe whatever you want to believe. He is not a thought fascist you know - the freedom to think freely is something he values. Humans and their religion is shown to be a thing of the past. It is not enduring. Even some folks of the crew where non-religious(in fact, deniers). What is enduring you might ask? David and his seemingly unlimited life-span. Something humans lack. Besides, the religion can be sub-planted. It only endures by word of mouth - some people indoctrinate the followers. What if at some point there are no such carriers to indoctrinate the following generations, will the religion endure? The answer is no in the movie : all those civilizations some 30,000 years old are gone and only thing left from them is the mural on the walls.  Gone are their beliefs if they ever had any. (We are shown that the religion is not an innate, an intrinsic and essential thing for living creatures, unlike say death - we are not born with religion, but we are born with genetically programmed death, or at least we are born with genetic programme that is prone to outside factors which mean we eventually die - we are not robust enough! Perhaps evolution will lead to such species, who knows?). The only thing that endured is the picture of some tall being - an engineer. And we know David is superior to those folks. I know many do not like this, but David is much more enduring than any sort of religion have ever hoped(if it makes sense :). After all, which is more convincing: being able to live forever or believing something you can't really test and have only a hope to live forever after death. The choice is yours to make. Somehow I believe a lot of people on a death bed would forgo their beliefs if they were offered unlimited lifespans. Okay, there is this prevailing justification that there is beauty in death - it is often ascribed as to be human to die. But, what if we are indeed are the product of some mere biological chance, who perish forever after death(which is very very likely). What if there is nothing at all after death and only nothingness? Recall, btw, the last words of Weyland - "there is nothing ...". The rest, ie, the completion of the phrase is your fantasy btw, for we don't know if Weyland didn't utter a complete sentence. Sorry for double negative - just work it out.(Btw, the LoA is a fascination of David. But where did it come from? David learned about it from Peter. In a sense he adopted it from Peter. And actually the story of Lawrence in the desert is that after a certain point(I bet his backside hurt for a long time after "fun" with the turks) there is nothing sacrosanct in that desert, it just a very bloody and same as everywhere - it is all about a fight for resources and egos, the classical story of lifelong struggle of a man on earth. So, there is nothing special in the desert, hence we are shown Lawrence losing his flamboyance(ironically, by help of anti-heroes) and returning home. Safe but a bit broken(surely in the backside at least) but with incredible story to tell. Now, back to P and AC and question of immortality vs unfounded beliefs. Okay, forget about yourself for a moment, would you not want it to be somehow possible for not losing your loved ones? If humans ever manage to produce a thing like David Humans should be proud of such an achievement - they'd have created something that will outlast everything they ever believed and imagined. They(humans in the movie) and indeed we should embrace such thing and actually make sure that they/we do not have to die and perish into nothingness. Of course such thing should be a choice :) But somehow I, being cynical, doubt that anybody would want to die given the choice, especially in later stages of life. If a person has lived all this way and he didn't take his life, why would that person reject it at the end?! If they do then they are at least irrational.

So, one of the big questions posed by the movie is : which do you chose, rationality(and embracing technical advance) or sticking to your old guns(btw, I am no 'merican) and traditions( the way the question is posed requires to have a bit of irrationality in the second part, but I am not saying that sticking to your long held beliefs is necessarily irrational)? Does your answer change if you are promised immortality as a result of the technical advance. And if you come to see that some people live forever, would you reject it because you and your fore-bearers didn't live forever? These questions are indeed ahead of the curve, that Ridley was talking about. Essentially he is asking how would humans look upon people who advanced to live forever(David is one such form of possible life). Will the people reject that or co-operate like Shaw did - she didin't mind David's company, did she? And of course the question is asked : is it bad to live forever - "they are struggling for resurrection". David doesn't want some of the humans to live forever. How do you look upon such view of his? I bet David would let Shaw live forever though. So put yourself into David's shoes would you want to grant immortality to somewhat hostile, unpredictable and irrational folks?(what if they use their immortality to kill all life?). And the question can be asked to David, "what did we do wrong" - when he said that humans do not deserve to live. Will he let them live forever if they change some irrationality? Just to exemplify the question : imagine if an AI(basically a computer) claims that it knows how to make humans immortal, but it is refusing to tell humans how to do it(and for the sake of argument, humans do not know at the moment how to do it themselves) because it thinks humans are assholes and do not deserve such a thing. This is blood boiling stuff isn't it? You created a thing from nothing, from scratch and yet it is refusing to help you out! That is the suspense in the question "What kind of world will David create". It would be wrong for David to not give humans immortality/freedom judging by their past - he simply doesn't know and can't really predict how humans would be if they lived forever. There were no such test conducted so he would be making decision based on uncertainty should he reject giving freedom/immortality to the embryos/humans. But who knows, perhaps xenomorphs are so smart that they figured out that humans are just waste of space and need to be consumed :)

Now, lets go & tone down our(my?) excitement and go back and worry about how the march towards the inevitable should be played out so that it is consistent with a movie that came out eons ago(that probably only negligible percent of people care, even here :)

ignorantGuy

Nov-19-2018 9:12 PM

BioDegradted ... sure that David is a free thinker. Everybody that ever contradicted him is dead. Even the nazis were the same, you are free to think like us or you will disappear. 

But it is fine, you can love a Nazi character and to use ethnic slurs, this is perfectly normal.

BioDegradable

Nov-19-2018 9:29 PM

please be specific where I am being insulting or crossing a line, otherwise you just make yourself look ridiculous - I find this a bit astonishing and amusing actually and that is because I recall your username -  it is the second time that you specifically came out slandering me of something I never meant and said.

Again, if you feel offended - just know that there is something wrong with you not with me(specifically, you are projecting your insecurities - it is you who spilled the beans when you said there is Nazi thing here and made me like the Nazi character for his Nazism and my slander of what exactly?). All I am engaging in here is some somewhat intellectual debates/arguments. We are discussing what-if scenarios about imaginary characters. But do not for a second think this is me being somewhat defensive or I am backtracking - because I am not. My admiration of charater's actions or anything really is none of your or anybody's business as long as I do it rationally.

You do have a few chips on your shoulders, don't you? Also are you new to the internets? I probably can't pass up on such a glorious opportunity and tell you(lay a bit of boot on you. You can imagine the proverbial boot being made by Hugo Boss, lol) : either be very specific with your accusations(you can quote quite easily on this forum) or just shut it and get lost with all your insecurities. Frankly, just lose them - be open minded by just thinking that most of the people will not agree with you and think by default that you are probably wrong.

David being Nazi is a bizarre thing and deserves discussion actually. Me being Nazi, as you think, however - is not so interesting, because my identity/person is of no interest(I am a boring bloke). Btw, it is your freedom to do whatever you wish, even being Nazi if you wish so.

BioDegradable

Nov-19-2018 9:57 PM

btw, this is a good test actually.

If you think David to be a Nazi or you believe David might discriminate on the grounds of religious beliefs( say if you think David likes people of christian faith but not in islam ) you ascribe to him something fundamentally humanly flawed thing(which he would certainly would not be most pleased about) and radially irrational patterns, which he would almost certainly not like, because those are innately human constructs and therefore not in his nature - he will be disappointed with you, and recall how that went for Walter. Now, he loathes human species(that one in the movie), well majority of them anyway (he quite liked Shaw and pitied Weyland in the end) but if you find such motives in his moves, I think that rather tells more about you than David.

BigDave

Nov-20-2018 11:52 AM

Faith and Religion are interesting in Context to IF Mankind or a selection Manage to become Immortal!

Its not a clear and cut case, as with Religion and Faith some are more Dedicated/Fanatical than others who are more Liberal and those who are  HARD-CORE may indeed have a different outlook in the light of being able to Scientifically become Immortal... they may choose to SHUN such Advancements as Blaspheme to the TRUE Immortality Promised by their Faith where as some more Liberal Religious people may have a different outlook on their Faith in Light of such a Scientific Advancement
and then some could accept this Evolution but then still accept their Faith.. the Question is how many years after they have become Immortal would they Abandon that Faith as not having a Need for it? 

What if someone gains Immortality via Scientific Advancements and yet still have their Faith, and then 200-300 years latter what happens then if their Immortality Remains what do they think of their Faith then?

Another interesting thing would be WOULD David allow his Creation Immortality?  Or would he have learned the Hubris of Mankind and the Engineers.   i am not sure David would want to Create or Gift his Creations a Equal Footing never mind Greater Superiority to himself.  But thats just my Interpretation and if i am WRONG then this at least adds to the Hubris Themes and will be Davids Undoing!

I do think the ULTIMATE Evolution and Quest for Immortality for Mankind would be the day they can Transcend their Soul into a AI or Machine!

The Plot of the Movie Transcendence shows that Dr. Will Caster  has in effect Cheated Death and gained a Immortal Soul!  It is interesting to Ponder that some Alien Species or even Mankind would/could at some time Achieve exactly this.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-20-2018 2:41 PM

David was shown to commit Genocide, but then he may have Good Reasons to do so... for example if you are aware of these beings and the intentions they had, you already got your head torn off, and now someone you Care About wants to walk up to these Guys for Answers even if it means they may potentially just Tear her in TWO...  David is FREE and i think he wants to be a Survivor and Destroying the Engineers is a way to Survive and maybe Salvage Dr Shaw some Answers from the RUINS?

He is also disappointed with Mankind and maybe his plans could be to Destroy them, but if this was the case surely there are other ways to do so...  and going to LV-223 and Swapping the Covenant for a Engineer Ship would be the best plan if this was the case.

I think we have to look at what RS means about what kind of a World he would Build rather than Destroy....  and we see David seemed to have a interest in Walter, but he saw that Walter would not come round to his kind of thinking and forsake Mankind.

David seemed interested in the Neomorph, and his Xenomorph and he was upset at when Oram killed the Neomorph... so i think David CAN care for some Creations, its a case of could he come to give Mankind a 2nd Chance?

Does he think Mankind as a Species cant be Redeemed? Or only WHAT we have become.... Knowledge and Free-will are KEY and if you have some Humans who have their Memories Wiped, then are they Free of all their Sins and Flaws as far as their Humanity and how Good/Evil they are?

Children are Born Sin Free.... a child can grow up to be Kind of Heart as Elisabeth Shaw, or as Selfish and Arrogant as Peter Weyland so maybe David would want to try and build a World with Humanoids that can Live up to what ever kind of Culture and Empathy etc that David would wish.

If we look at GOD he is kind of enforcing his ways on people and has committed Genocide to those who dont follow his ways would this make God a Nazi?   I can see elements why David can be viewed this way, was that a intention? i dont think so, but everyone is entitled to conclude how they see David as.

I interpret it as him being a Creation who sees himself as Superior to his Creators, and sees nothing Special about his Creators or even their own Creators and he views their Creators the Engineers as beings who had Great Knowledge, Tools and Technology but who Ultimately were no real different to Humans and had pursued Creation and Perfection but then Abandoned it and David feels these Engineers are just NOT WORTHY of the Gifts they Bare.

They are False-Gods.... and he sees himself as Superior and the Natural Order of Creation, and Heir to the THRONE of CREATION and he sees himself as being WORTHY of being a Creator and i feel he wishes to Create and Pursue Perfection at a Far Greater Result than his Wanna Be God Father and Humanities False-God Engineers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-20-2018 5:18 PM

Here is what i have been led to in regards to the Sequel to Alien Covenant (as it appeared Fall 2017) this is my interpretation (its also not far off my plans for my sequels) i cant say how close this kind of Plot is, maybe we will NEVER find out.

I think its pretty sure the Covenant Ship will head to Origae-6 and i think maybe we will get some time on the Ship but i dont expect any Great Length of time being on the ship.

I think David will either build a Walter from Parts, or maybe there are Spare Walters, and David will UPLOAD his Soul into this New Body.  At the very least David will get some Parts and Repair his Missing Hand.  I say this because i cant see Fassbender playing a One Armed Robot all movie and i think he may Charade as a Walter and if he is to Fool the other Colonist (he will need them to help set up the Colony Outpost and Infrastructure, Unless he intends to Build a World from Basics so Wood Etc).  I think we may get some Philosophical Scenes and maybe Memories of David.

They will arrive at Origae-6 some point after April 2112

I think maybe we could then see a Jump In time... were we arrive at a setting on Origae-6 where the colony has begun to be set up, or it may even be Partially Set Up... Now what kind of a Colony will depend on what Davids plans are for the Colonist.

*Does he Charade as Walter and have Adult Colonist help him and do we see some of these remain?  i dont think he will awaken Hundreds never mind more of them.  And we have a Colony that is not too great in Number, but how does he explain this and to the others?

*Does he eventually Kill Off the Adults and maybe some of the 2000 Colonist are Children, and he then settles them down on the Surface.  His Subjects.

*Does he instead Experiment on the Embryos? or Raises them? But bare in mind if he did this within the first Month it would take 5-6 years before they become 5-6 year olds and we have just 10 years until Alien... but maybe he could Evolve the Embryos so they would Grow Faster and be his Creation.

Either way i think we will have this Colony Set Up, how large it would be.. i am not sure it would be Huge.  And depending which of the 3 Scenarios above, could Determine if the Colony has Technology like the Living Quarters Modules from the Covenant.   Or do they build a Colony that uses Natural Resources and Comprises of Wooden Buildings.  This would be more unlikely with Scenario 1

I am in part wondering if we would see a more Armish Like Community and maybe comprises of Children (Adults could have set it up and been Killed before Children settled there) and i think this Colony would live in some kind of Simple and Religious kind of Life, like Amish, like maybe those Planet 4 Engineers i am not sure this would work well with Adults... (but my idea i did) and so maybe we could have some kind of Wooden Theme World with Ritual/Religious way of life like Monks... Or maybe the Colony has some Technology and is constructed with those Modules on the Covenant?

The Colony is living in Tranquil Peace, and they follow either a Religion that is pre-existing or one that David has given them, and he is seen as either a Saviour, or maybe Godlike (if the Colony is Children) ....

But David has some Secrets, i think we will at some point see and Discover what has happened to some or many of the Colonist, and maybe Daniels..   were we will see the aftermath of Experiments (maybe flashbacks of them happening) and these Colonist are either kept in another location on Origae-6 a Forbidden Place to those Cultist Colonist or they are kept on the Covenant, and again in either a Far Away Forbidden Place or in Space (which means David would have the Lander Hidden in a Forbidden Place) Do we discover he has Daniels Held up some place? Do we get Scenes of him interacting with her? Or do we get the Dr Shaw Treatment?

I think the main Focus wont be on the Experiments or other Colonist that relate to Xenomorphs and Eggs but we will get some Glimpses of this.   Maybe this place and the Eggs/Xenomorphs or something else could be explained as Punishment, what happens to those who SIN a way to keep the Colony in Check... if these are the DEMONS and maybe there Location is  HELL

I think we will explore a lot of Philosophy about Religion, Creation, Punishment etc etc

This all Goes to Hell.... Once a incoming Human Ship arrives, does David manage to get to contact them and get these Humans to go to the Place he has HELL (or a Original Colony Set up) or does he get them to go to the Covenant Ship? 

Does some Suspicious things happen that make some of the Colony he has Curious? do some of these Investigate?

Does some of the Incoming Humans arrive at another Place (Original Technological Colony) or the Covenant, and Discover whats going on and then go down to Davids Colony?  (i cant see them being attacked by Xenomorphs or maybe just ONE as the movie is supposed to NOT be about Xenomorphs).

Or do these Humans head down to where Davids Colony in Harmony is?

I think something will happen that will lead to those Colonist (maybe Children) Discovering that everything is not how it seems.... IF they Colony is Children, or people who had Memories Erased... how would they React when People who look the Same Come or are Discovered... and then THE Truth comes out, where David is rumbled..

How would this effect the Colonist, what if they are Fed a Different History and Origin by David that is now seen as a Shame because Humans from Earth Arrive?

Could this have happened and we merely Flash Past this and have a After-Math of what happens to those incoming Humans, and does David keep some Alive?    Do some of his Colony get Supicious at this and make a Discovery and David Sadly has to Kill some of his Colonist to regain ORDER?

But then another incoming Ship with Military who are aware of the Advent (a prior mission may have been kept in the dark) they arrive and they discover what David has done and then they come down to his Colony and THIS is how he is rumbled.... does he warn those Colonist these Humans are Evil and get them to side with him?

I think at some point the TRUTH comes out and David is found out and HELL BREAKS lose.... and then i think at the End we will then see the ENGINEERS Return.

I cant say how accurate this is... i do think some elements of it could be at play,  or even if the Plot like this is put in part as something that happened in the past and the Movie Mainly Focus at the end of the First Act on our First or Second Incoming Human Ship

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

Nov-21-2018 2:26 AM

BigDave, you must have your head spinning with all these possible scenarios, don't you? You know, after some point all these theories become a bunch of gibberish - and it is really hard to tell what might be what and which is more probable. I mean, it is clearly impossible to foretell the future script(should there be any), and the openness of the possibilities is frankly uncountably infinite and therefore any theory is as good(and likely) as any other.

 

Just for entertainment, how about this one:

It is simple for David to get rid of the colonists - on the one hand he could jump start a life for human embryos as he sees fit, perfecting them by granting them immortality by altering their make up and thus forcing a new evolutionary step in human species (immortality is something that is surely present with high probability in the black goo, which he had ample time to probe) giving humanity a chance with best intentions on the Origae-6, then, fly the Covenant with the colonists who are already spoiled by their earthy experience(and therefore forsaken) to the LV-223(I am not sure how much time this might take), make xenomorph eggs from them there, (well because he is their father as well and it is his perfect organism as well) load them all up on a derelict with a plan to go to Earth to replace those unworthy(?) earthlings, but at this point something unexpected happens - the guests arrive for their revenge and spoil a bit David's party. His plan was to have some balance of sorts - he has his "wolf"-a xeno, now he has to have his "sheep"-perfected humans. But the curve-ball that is thrown at David is something that he should have expected, since he is surely by Walters discovery and his own admission the next visionary :) A god. And gods never die, right? Well, if Weyland's fate was something to go by, then not quite. And this is the irony - the same fate struck David. And the moral of the story is that being a god is not a straightforward 1-2-3-bulleted plan and perhaps being perfect a AI with relatively unlimited life-span is not enough.(of course, David needs to have a proper replication strategy -a backup of sorts, here you can speculate if he uploaded himself to Ash or Murthur or whatever).

Leto

Nov-21-2018 4:09 AM

Well, as we know - David is NOT Superior. Walter is Superior. He have better body and he have... better knowledge! Yes, he can't create... on start! But he can can learn.

But David... Do you remember - he was wrong about Byron instead Shelley. He have mistake and how many more? And really interesting question is not "what world build David as superior?", but - "what world build David as mistaken and deluded?"

 

Yes, David is able to appreciate the beauty. But has its own representation about it. Show, Xenomorphs, dead world. David can build new world, but this is will not be a world with shining and blue skies, and with happy deluded innocent new humans. NO! It's will be the dark and cruel world with sacrifices and xenomorphs, where people live only as slaves and incubators for Aliens. And (as I view) it's can be perfectly connected to Alien.

I have two ideas.

1) Maybe Enginners come to Origae-6, but all of them are destroyed by xenomorphs (well, David can created about a thousand xenomorphs, if he divide into two parts 2000 colonists and first part will be eggs and second part will be xenomorphs). Then David captured they ship and he OR his humans slaves (i like this) will be piloting this ship on Earth or/with stop at LV-223 for restocking black goo and modification of xenomorphs, but pilot be infested and ship crash on LV-426.

2) David can meet W-Y new crew (this people know what did David, but they have deal with him. I mean bioweapon for W-Y - you know). He demonstrates the xenomorphs for them and this crew don't care about David's human slaves. But Engineers coming and chaos begins. Engineers put eggs on ship and go to LV-223 for studying. David or humans who hide in the Derelict infect the pilot and ship crashed on LV-426 before or after LV-223.

 

P.S. @BigDave if you interested philosophy and AI, I recommend to you play in The Talos Principle (with Road to Gehena) - it's about philosophy/religion/science and humans/civilization evolution, and, of course, AI as GOD. And SOMA - it's about a good idea why a mind transfer impossible, but copy is possible. Also find "memetics " - i think you like it.

BigDave

Nov-21-2018 11:26 AM

@BioDegradable

I think regarding Immortality to a Organic Organism this would be some kind of Wholy Grail of Genetic Engineering and to some extent what the Engineers had done to themselves in the Original Concept/Plot (Alien Engineers) and you can bet its something that Weyland would have aspired to accomplish but the closest he maybe came as Creating a Synthetic Immortal Body (if only he found the means to Transcend the Soul to it),  i think pondering such a Plot is very interesting as it fits with the Themes that the Prequels had been showing.  If we assume the Black Goo has the ability to Reprogram Genomes of Organic Matter and it can take the Genetic Code of Certain Traits and apply them to Organisms that lack them. (like take what makes a Chameleon Lizard Change Color and apply it to a Mammal for Instance).  Then we can assume the Black Goo can Engineer Regenerative Traits, we have to remember Ridley Scott claimed the Xenomorph would have Regenerated Itself...  is this a Trait of the Black Goo or a Trait from another Organism that David used the Black Goo to Program into his Xenomorphs, then we cant throw out the possibility he could apply this Trait to other Organisms.

Here is where David would be in a Dilemma... if he could Engineer Humanoids who could Vastly Live for Longer, or yet more so...... then on ONE Hand David would have Surpassed the Engineers, and his Creator Weyland in their Accomplishments and Created the Perfect Humanoid. Making David have more rights to claim he is more Godlike/Perfect Creator than his Ancestral History but on the Flip Side would be a Hubris that he may have created something more Superior to Himself and would repeating the Mistakes of his For-bearers.

Would David not be so Foolish? or would his pursuit of trying to become the Greater Creator and Surpass his Father and the Engineers accomplishments  by attempting to create the Most Perfect Superior Life-Form and the effect this would have on his Legacy and Ego be too much for him to turn away from?

A way to Control a Creation is via Knowledge and Free-will the less Knowledge and Free-will your Creation have the less of a threat they could be....  If David could influences his Creations to see him as a GOD and David lays down a Foundation of Rules and what happens to those who Break the Rules.... in effect a kind of Religion then he could subdue and manipulate his Creation.

What happens when his Creations Discover David is NO God and Not Superior or In-Superior to them?  What happens when someone else comes along and reveals to them the History of Creation and Mankind and so Davids Creations discover that he is NOT Special and has told Lies?  I would think such Themes are what really interests Ridley Scott but the Question is how much of such Themes would have been explored in the Sequel?

Certainly i agree that David would maybe want to have his WOLF (Xenomorph) and his LAMB (Colonist or his Engineered Humans)  he would need some kind of Back-Up Plan for when his Creation goes Wrong! and this is likely WHY those Engineers attempted to create the Bio-Weapons on LV-223.

"David needs to have a proper replication strategy -a backup of sorts, here you can speculate if he uploaded himself to Ash or Murthur or whatever)."

I forgot to add this kind of Sub-Plot but i have mentioned it quite a lot in relation to potentially what the Sequel could show as i have assumed the route would lead to a reveal that AI is running the show, with Humanity in the Dark.  I do think this potentially is what RS could do with the Plot down the Line... and indeed my Prometheus 2 was covering the same thing..... only Peter Weylands Soul in AI Form.

I think looking back to the Sequel and the Comments and Set-up i feel that they would be going to Origae-6 and we will see the Colony get built to some degree, and David will LIVE among them be they Surviving Colonist, or Engineered Ones or Children...  i think we will see a Colony as being set up and in some Peaceful Harmony a NEW EDEN a Paradise.  I even think they may abbot some kind of Basic Living maybe even related to some Cult/Religious Order 

I say this because i dont think David would go and Create a World that is just turning Humans into Xenomorphs or Eggs or very similar.... as RS mentioned the Plot would not be about Xenomorphs but about Artificial Intelligence  and i dont think by AI he means it would Soley be about DAVID or about David Building more Synthetics, or David Controlling the AI of the Weyland-Yutani Systems including any incoming Synthetics... but i cant rule this out as being a part of it.

When he mentions about how the Replicants are AI and the Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals (not Enhanced LV-223 ones) then i feel RS is touching upon how Artificial Intelligence/Life does not have to be NON-ORGANIC

You can be sure the Incoming Parties would play a ROLE in the Revelation to the Colonist of WHO he really is (David) and i so wonder if he has some Experiments and Horrors in store for some of the Colonist and Daniels which he has KEPT away from his Colony and its Citizens.... and what happens when the HORRORS and Darker Side of David are revealed!

I think the Plot would feature such things as far as the Broad-Strokes.... i do think the Returning Engineers part would be the Final Act and Set-Up the maybe the FINAL part of the Prequels which would Feature the Xenomorph, its Evolution and Set-Up how the Derelict comes into play.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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