Shaw and David (Spoilers) for those who have seen AC
Posted May-16-2017 4:36 PM
A Lot of discussion has been going on regarding David and Shaw, and i have Tried to Hold off my Topics until after the USA Launch but i had replied today in a post that i gave my theory.
So i have made this Topic to cover this in more detail.
A lot of people had wondered what happened to Dr Shaw, she seemed not to bad in the Crossing Prologue, yes a bit worse for wear, but this may had been due to Nutrition and not a Infection because her Hair was long before she Re-attached Davids Head. Which means she would have survived for at least 6 Months before she chose to do this to David, thus she could not have been ill.
She knew how Dangerous David could be, and she took her time, it took Months most likely before she could Trust David to be able to finally put him back together.
It appears they started to grow a bond, a fondness for each other, David had never known Love, he felt rejected by Mankind, and all he wanted was to be accepted and not treated any different.
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is just to love and be loved in return"
Nature Boy Song
So David finally felt someone showed him compassion, and care and LOVE... David grew very fond of Shaw, he really Loved her, and this maybe made him choose to avenge her for the wrongs of the Engineers? or Maybe not.. I will assume that David knows the Engineers Evil Agenda or indeed how they may react to Dr Shaw, when she wants her Answers. So David knows the risk that Shaw could be killed or worse for asking such things after seeing what happened to Weyland.. Made David decide to Kill the Engineers.
So after the aftermath, David tells Shaw why he did it, and he tells Shaw he can find out her answers. We dont know what there relationship developed into while they remained on Paradise.
But we can see in Alien Covenant David got very fond of Shaw, and felt she was fond of him, Davids Emotions growing more Human as Time goes on.
Fassbender said their relationship was like a Marriage... But one that had gone wrong no doubt..
WHAT HAPPENED TO SHAW?
David tells Daniels he will do the same to her, and yet prior David was very upset at the loss of Shaw... Conclusion..
David Fell in love with Shaw, he maybe felt she would feel the same, but she only saw their friendship as just that... She could not have a Relationship with a Robot...
David Loved her, and he no doubt started to get kind of Sexual Feelings and i think One Day he tried to kiss her, like he did with Walter, and then he may have tried to take it further like he did with Daniels.
David Loved Shaw, but in more than a Friendly way, Sadly Shaw did not feel the same, and She felt threatened by this and David would have felt Rejected by this, and no doubt Shaw then got scared for her Life and Attempted to escape.
This made David then feel Rejected by the only Human who ever showed David Compassion... and this made him Flip and Kill her.
He would be distraught at killing her, or injuring her.. maybe he never killed her but he felt so rejected that if he could not have her.. then no one will and used her for experiments.
Or if he injured her, maybe he then felt that there is something he could do for her... Shaw could never Bare Children, so maybe David could help her Create Life, and he would help her with this so that THEY both Create Life Together..
David killed the Engineers, to protect Shaw from Potential Danger, he Loved her in more than a Family/Friendship manner but she did not feel the same.. he Maybe dreamed of being Human, being in a Relationship with Elizabeth even having Children... all in Davids Fantasy World.
Upon her Death due to David feeling Rejected and Broke his Heart and felt Betrayed, he then felt remorse and regret... and so he decided Shaws Life should not be in vain...
From Death, he could Create.. Thus the Experiments began....
The End Result... The Eggs... Shaw and Davids Children.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
|30 Responses to Shaw and David (Spoilers) for those who have seen AC|
@ Big Dave
Like yourself I have been holding off till after the USA release.
One of the things that struck me was why David admitted killing Shaw. I have thought about the points you have raised, but there is one option which goes back to Prometheus when David poisoned Halloway. Although David’s primary target was Halloway, Shaw became infected through Halloway. So could David’s admittance of killing Shaw, be acknowledgement that she was an unintended victim that he was responsible for ?
While its an interesting theory, I hope they dont go to a robot's love story.
Is there an agenda the mods are not telling us about? ;)
I know that may split fans... but it certainly looks this way.. the whole Arc is something we have seen in movies before..
Its the back bone to many a Horror/Thriller..... Boy who is Ugly gets bullied, gets protected by the Pretty Girl who sticks up for him, they bond as good friends.. she sees beyond his looks for who he really is... but its only ever as friends... this is no Beauty and the Beast... (but could make a Horror Version) Boy picks up wrong signals tries it on with Girl, gets rejected, gets angry, and feels he was being led on ... tries again.. Girl runs for her Life, refuses to speak to Boy... Ugly Boy Flips and goes on a Killing Spree.
This kind of Plot has been explored in movies before, and from the clues i have seen its the way i see Davids Actions going.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Hi all! First time posting here. So I had a theory on this as well:
I think that David vengefully killed the Engineers, spitefully so.
I think he deliberately crashed the ship to cover up what he had done so that Shaw would not be angry with him, awoke her from cryo-sleep, and told her a false story about the release of the “black goo” agent. She believed him.
I think they settled on that world for some time, as Fassbender said, like a "married couple" or even an Adam and Eve. The extent of their bonding is unknown and how far things went between them (platonic or sexual). I can see Shaw being hesitant to go too far with it, but certainly not David seeing as how he is quite feisty even rapey with his behaviour in Covenant.
They did have a lot in common. Intelligent, curious, amazing survival instincts, both were disappointed by their creators, even hated by their creators, and both could not “create life”.
I think something happened to cause Shaw to distrust what David had been telling her. And she secretly sent out the S.O.S. But David is smart, caught her, and seeing this as an act of treachery and no longer able to trust her, sadistically kills her. I think the Li-ification of Shaw’s face is a testimony to his adoration of her, as much as Giger adored Li.
Now, my fantasy here is that there may have been one living Engineer (the Engineer posed as Michelangelo’s David) or even a few living Engineers on Paradise that David and Shaw came into contact with. He imprisoned them to run experiments, something that probably sickened Shaw. Little by little she would learn to speak to them, gaining affection for them (seeing as they are more human), and this lead to her turning on David.
I just hope that this time they spent on Paradise together is clarified in a flashback in the next movie.
Also, she died recently because otherwise her body would have decomposed. So for the best part of 10 years, they cohabited.
All great theories guys! Can't wait to find the real answers! Only a few years eh...
I think that David did indeed fall in love with Shaw but it was unrequited and this ultimately led to her demise.
Now alone on the planet David uses her body to carry out his experiments.
Indeed Stan she does look very well preserved.... but we dont 100% know when she had died, this will be one of the interesting debates with regards to some flaws/potential plot holes that will open up many debates to try and give plausible explanations for them.
Shaws body looks well preserved and certainly is a massive oversight/mistake if they intended this to had been there for nearly 10 years... (i dont think this is the case because of her Hair Growth would tell me they had been together for 6-12 months before she put David back together).
The Plasticated Engineer looks in very good condition too, and we have to wonder where did he salvage the body from? Was there some Survivors? Did they give Shaw Answers? Did Shaw even know there was any Survivors.
So yes so many Questions...
Indeed its pretty open to debate, and indeed its kind of ironic that David and Shaw could not create... but then Ultimately in the End David does create, in which Shaw is a pivotal part of this.
Davids Workshop is interesting and yet poses many Questions that are maybe not right to call Plot Holes, as we can speculate on explanations for them....
Unless its Lazy Writing, a massive oversight or indeed the majority of this room is Concept Work from the creature design team that they decided would be cool to add in the movie... raising a number of potential Plot Flaws.
But these raise some good Questions as my Topic from a few Months back covered. To Create One Must First Destroy
And so indeed, for David to have conducted so many experiments of which so many look like they would have needed Humanoid Hosts.... we have to wonder, its likely David needed Hosts for these experiments... looking at the Walls, and all the things we have seen i would say David needed a good 8-10 Humanoid Hosts at Least....
There are Human New Born Baby Skulls in his workshop... So did David actually find a way to allow Shaw to give birth?
Davids study of the Engineers, seems to be something that would seem hard to do with the Charred Remains on the Planet.
Did David get a Engineer, did David use the Engineer to Breed with Shaw to Produce Children to be used for his Experiments?
We dont know.. but there looks a lot of evidence for THIS
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Nice Post and indeed it certainly could be similar to what you posted.
As far as his Love for Shaw... and maybe how it took a whole Intimate Turn on his part here is the Evidence i see.
*Fassbender said David was Fond of Shaw, and also they had a Relationship that was like a Marriage.
*The Crossing Prologue we see David praises Shaw for her Kindness.
*Once he he back in one piece he shows a lot of affection for Shaw by drawing a Picture.
*Alien Covenant shows us that David indeed was very Fond of Shaw even saying he Loved her, as he showed Walter her Grave. And he was visibly upset
*He asked if Walter Loves Daniels too, and then tries to kiss Walter telling him no one will love him like he can.
*When Daniels finds out what David really did, David says he will do the same to her and then he throws her on a Table and Mounts her and tries to Kiss her.
*After the release of the Movie Fassbender indeed confirms David was very much in Love with Shaw.
*Some of the Set Reports from the Summer, claim that Shaw was hiding away from David.. and barricading herself away.
Maybe the Trailer Song Nature Boy is very Relevant and the ending of that song is
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
David indeed grew to despise Mankind due to the way he was treated, he felt that Dr Shaw treated him different and so he grew fond of her, this fondness turned to Love, which then maybe Turned to Lust.. which then shocked Shaw, and made her Fear him.... which then the Rejection and maybe her trying to keep away from him... made him Feel that Actually No Human ever cared for him.. And so he flipped..
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
David thanks for raising this because other than speculating where next this is THE topic of the movie. It is right at the heart of it because all the themes collide in their relationship.
Before I start can we get it clear Alien : Origins the book written by Alan Dean Foster and released in September is the prequel novel to Covenant. It is sanctioned by Ridley and Alan has written his own extensions into the framework of the overall story. That it will deal further with the Engineers and David and Elizabeths journey and the creation out of Elizabeths DNA and the Pathogen seems highly likely why would it deal with anything else.
Unlike BD I do not interpret issues like hair length her hair in the sarcophagus looked more coppery than the dark hair of The Crossing so my observations will be restricted to whats actually in the film which might give us clues and the emotional speculation. I am not saying it isn't inconsistent but I doubt its meant to mean anything.
Visual Clues Juggernaut
Elizabeths name tags are on the Juggernaut.
A photo graph of her and if I remember Charlie is flotsam.
The signal is taken from her singing in the pilot chair. However its important to remember the Engineers have this curious holographic technology which once you know how to activate it lets you into the full range of their vast knowledge base including the equivalent of CCTV footage. As the juggernaut has crashed the systems may have activated a beacon but because the systems are scrambled it produces a bite sized piece of random data which for story telling purposes is Elizabeth. If she wanted to actually send a message this would be an odd selection.
The ship crashed in the aftermath of the attack, we do not know what the docking tug was capable of.
Visual Clues the Citadel
1) Elizabeth has clearly been experimented on with protrusions from her head and her motherhood entirely absent. Given the movie was to be called Paradise Lost for a few weeks in autumn 2015 she appears to have a fate not dissimilar to Sin, described in the Poem, where Satan raped his daughter in heaven and gave birth under coercion repeatedly to death.
2) The drawings found by Daniels indicate this was a period of prolonged experimentation until presumably Davids experiments with her DNA and the pathogen created or mutated into what he needed a separate capacity for incubation of the hugger. As this science fiction we cannot be certain that the residual effects of the experience with the trilobite did not have consequences for her much later.
Here is a question, how did the photo follow them? I cant remember her going to pick it up at the end of Prometheus
@Big Dave - So once again, we are left as clueless to what is going on, as the crew of the Prometheus & now the Covenant?
Geez, I need to have a reason to give a crap about David again. I hope I do after seeing the film this weekend?
You wont get many answers and its still leaves that inclin in your mind , "did David create the xenemorph or was it him trying to perfect what he learned"
The film is enjoyable but be prepared it starts slow.
Indeed Michelle i think the ADF Novel will answer a lot of those Questions, i wonder why just a Standard Title like Origins however? I would have chosen something like Alien Alpha, or Alien Ascension (which is what one of my stories was called).
Then again if they are pushing it for fans to read and especially Alien ones, who may not have been a fan of Prometheus then Origin does get to the point with no confusion.
The ADF Title thus indeed does confirm that a event between Shaw and David leads to the Origin of the Xenomorph.
The Crossing Prologue we do see Shaw with what looks shorter hair in the Cryio-sleep Pod but this is because her hair is pushed back around her head, in the other shots she does have at least 6-8" Gain compared to Prometheus.... i dont think this is a oversight.
There was a few topics on this which i had started one after the Prologue came out, where indeed we have to ask, where did Shaw get those Tools from, where did she find Nutritional Supplements, where did she get the Bed/Table she used to operate on David and a number of other things.. that simply was not Engineer Technology.
This Topic aimed to cover the Prologue Video
And so indeed another one is the Photo of Shaw and Holloway, that again clearly Shaw did not have at the end of Prometheus, and so this adds to my Topic i made prior which i liked above too.
These all seem to indicate that Shaw would have Salvaged stuff from either the Prometheus Wreckage or the Lifeboat (a risky move) but as Alien Covenant added to the Crossing Prologue by showing us the Holloway and Shaw Photo.. the only place this Photo could have came from was the Prometheus Wreckage (bit of Plot Hole how that survived... but then after 911 Terrorist Passports were recovered in great condition)
So its like that a lot of stuff was Salvaged from the Wreckage of the Prometheus, and i would assume the ADF Book could cover in some part this information... but i would say it also has to cover Davids Agenda for what he did to the Engineers and Shaw as the Origin Title has to mean we will get details of how/when and why he had conducted those experiments.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
It certainly does... however Ridley Scotts interviews and comments does tell us that David created it... HOWEVER... what is said in Interviews and Comments does not count as Canon completely because things can change on Screen that then rule any such comments as Null and Void.... for example going back 2 years ago and more, all comments by Ridley Scott was showing the Engineers Created the Xenomorph and indeed it was a Ancient Engineer event that was the Space Jockey... But as the Movies progress changes are made and its Ultimately what ever is shown in movies that is Canon.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think ridley has pointed us in that direction as a misdirection, I think there is a lot more we dont know.
I think the engineers produced a type of xenemorph and maybe david has altered it somehow.
I think it would be stupid for him to just bypass what we have seen in Prometheus but who knows.
It will be interesting to see what direction it goes in the next movie.
you mention shaw would have had to go back to the prometheus for the photo?
well when the crossing came out i wanted to know where i had seen the green drink that shaw was drinking?
so i went and watched prometheus for a clue and it looks the same shade of green that shaw had in the crossing is also available on the prometheus.
you see it at breakfast scene when Fifield & co. are talking.
so i thought that a good enough coincidence to assume shaw went to salvage the wreckage. perhaps the photo is another clue pointing to the potential scenario of Shaw going back to the ship for supplies?
Take This.... This is the blood of our lord
One other thing I noticed (only on one viewing so far) which might well have some bearing on Shaw's fate...
David is clearly emotional when reminiscing about Shaw and the two other moments in the movie when he seems this emotional or even distraught are during the release of the pathogen on paradise and also when Oram kills the adult neomorph - which is interesting to note that he doesn't bat an eyelid when the Xenos, his perfect organisms, are killed.
This could indicate that the Neomorphs are somehow connected to Shaw and that perhaps when David admits to killing her it could be an accidental killing - either through the Pathogen he infected Holloway with going on to infect Shaw or perhaps Shaw gets infected by the spores that are created in the aftermath of the bombing and dies giving birth to a Neomorph - it's entirely possible that the adult Neomorph Oram kills is not one of the Neomorphs birthed by Covenant crew but Shaw's (and therefore David's) child.
This could explain why David becomes so vengeful towards Oram after the Neomorph is killed.
Although it's clear that David experiments on Shaw's body, it's not clear what his motive is for this (could he be trying to resurrect her?) and if his killing of Shaw was deliberate or intentional.
Was David in Love? Are we seeing that old, played-out cyber punk conundrum of a robot testing the boundaries of what it is to be human? To love, to desire, to kill - to create? Plenty there for romantic reflection and over analysis.
Sadly for Scott - the writers explained why David killed Shaw - he did it because he is broken. As Walter clearly pointed out - the fact that David can't tell the difference between Shelley and Byron - is symptomatic that David has experienced a far greater corruption to his files than anyone realises (including David himself who seems genuinely shocked when this is explained to him - beautifully acted scene by the way - my favourite of the film) - the confusion over the two romantic poets is simply the tip of the iceberg as Walter articulately points out.
Why is David broken? Well his model was never stable anyway as Walter pointed out. Secondly he is a prototype - things tend to go wrong when you have an insanely strong synthetic surrounded by weak and geeky humans in deep space miles away from the latest critical windows updates. Thirdly David did have his head ripped off and thrown across the room which can't be too useful for him.
I actually love the idea a broken robot built by humans wrecks the Engineer's home planet. There is something mind-blowingly cool about that - in that it is bleak to the point of being deeply sardonic - but there is also a humorous irony in the weaker species (Mankind) building a second-rate and dangerously unstable robot that wipes out the Engineer's home planet - with their own weapon. Remember this is a deeply British film despite what Wikipedia claims (that it is solely American) - this film was even produced by a British company and that twisted sense of humour is apparent throughout from the violent yet slapstick lander quarantine scene to David tenderly reassuring Walter he will do the 'fingering' - which got a big laugh in my local cinema in the UK.
This is the way I see it. Of course this wont stop years of millions of fans theorising ad infinitum on what aspect of David's strange synthetic emotions lead to Shaw's death. However I think there is a beauty to a broken robot going wild. The most a broken iBook would ever do is refuse to give you back your CD when it gets confused (as they usually do) - like a slightly infuriating but vastly less dangerous version of HAL from 2001. A broken David on the other hand is capable of flying an alien spacecraft to an alien home planet - wiping it out with their own weapons - and then using his human friend's body to build a freakishly nasty and hellish creature that will haunt humans across the galaxy for all eternity.
They didn't necessarily say he was broken. Walter said people became uncomfortable or scared off his model. Wasn't it because he could think?
Nope, I believe it was after that - Walter explained that David not knowing that Byron was not the author of the Ozimandias poem was symptomatic of a far bigger corruption.
If anyone can remember the exact lines - would appreciate it - for me it is the key to the whole film.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think it safe to assume from the interviews, Fassbender wouldn't have minded David going even more OTT and to be honest - I wouldn't have minded it either.
David had mixed feelings for Shaw, that's why he created zenomorphs, well not the the sole reason. If you backtrack, you'll realize David has always been rogue. He named himself David intentionally, because he wanted to slay Goliath. The constant belittling he had to deal with in Prometheus just added fuel to the flame. He initially saved the virus for humanity, until they found out the engineer's ship was operating. He created a subservience creature and claims he is kinG, when he speaks to Walter. He thinks he's no different than his creator, but he's really just doing the same. He's obsessed with control and power because he didn't have it on earth, so by any means necessary, he was going to where the engineers lived. He did like Shaw, but he hated humanity more, or did he like her at all? He's a great manipulator, both mentally and emotionally like any psychopath. Everything he has done and will do is calculated. Notice the 'care' he had on the ship when he posed as Walter? He buttered up Shaw with compliments because he knew it would build trust. Trust grant she'd let her guard down. His goal is world domination, but Walter tells him something _along the lines of 'if a note is off, the entire symphony is.' He's too human and it'll he his downfall when his creature becomes more self aware than he assumes.
Also, I find it intriguing now similar this film is to the anunnaki tablets. Maybe it's a sign maybe it isn't.
In this YouTube video, it shows David putting Shaw in the sleep chamber, just as he does with Daniels. Not good news for Daniels...
The above image is David 8 projecting a childish crush on Dr. Shaw to placate her (my opinion). Laughable dumbed down artwork for a lonely Dr. Shaw. Poor thing.
This action with Dr. Shaw above is a facade stretched over a total emotionally sterile robot who is designed to fabricate emotions. Everything; tombstone, pictures, I love her so much, etc...and a dissected Dr. Shaw.
I say this because David 8 showed his drawing ability in his workshop below.
David 8 was very convincing in his affection before running a pipe through Walter's throat. Emotions are currency for David 8's emotionally sterile objectives.
Yes, this starts to break down when the madness (Ozymandias author error and realization by David 8) is introduced. Madness is the best part and impossible to predict with David 8.
After finally having seen AC it’s of course interesting to discuss and analyse it. I agree with much of what many of you have said here.
David is of course the most interesting character. Is he a villain (devil) or an anti villain? Is his goal of creating a perfect being admirable? He sees the flaws (even cruelty) of mankind and the engineers. What if Shaw and David are in love? Neither of them can create life (children) in a normal way so what if she agrees to let David help her/them to get children? The experiments with Shaw and the pathogen then goes out of hand.
On the other hand, David might be confused about what love is (which can be seen in the dialog between him and Walter) and he does this to Shaw against her will but believing it’s the right thing to do (both wanting to create life).
He might, of course, also have become the mad scientist (Dr Moreau) or the mad colonel Kurtz (Heart of Darkness) whose moral compass goes astray. But what is his goal with creating the perfect being? He fulfils the need of creating himself (becoming human or even above humans) but why create a being which is aggressive and violent? Is it the same purpose as the engineers had, making a biological weapon to destroy mankind?
Finally, there is the problem of tying the whole shebang to the original Alien movie. If David creates the eggs which finally end up in the derelict on LV-426, then the space jockey cannot be fossilised (thousands of years old). I also wonder if David really creates the xenomorph or just tries to re-create it (we have the mural of the godlike perfect being)?
Ridley Scott confirmed David created the Xenomorphs.
Maybe the Engineers fossilize quicker?
Yes, JPFFL, I suppose they might fossilise quicker or there might be a natural disaster of some kind, like a volcano eruption, which quickly turns the space jockey to stone. But there is the mural of the perfect being in the facility on LV-223 (the mural also contains facehuggers). The engineers must have worshipped and tried to recreate the xenomorph, experimenting with the pathogen. The outbreak, probably due to an accident or carelessness, led to some kind of alien creature (maybe a deacon) hunting the engineers through the corridors as seen in the hologram (The heap of long dead engineers outside the closed door in the facility with holes in their chests suggests that they had been attacked by facehuggers). Also, the deacon (which is quite similar to the xenomorph) was created with the pathogen, through holloways intercourse with Shaw. Furthermore, the neomorph seems to have been created through the pathogen cloud which David lets out over the engineers contaminating the whole planet, spawning the spores.
But I agree that Scott says in the interview that David Creates the xenomorph, but maybe he will change his mind again into David recreating it?
After AC I had double feelings about David and Elizabeth.
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