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Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel

Alien: Covenant

The Alien: Covenant, Alien: Awakening & Prometheus Movie Community

Will the sequel to Alien: Covenant ever be made?

Will the sequel to Alien: Covenant ever be made?

The Alien movie franchise, which began with 1979's classic science-fiction horror movie Alien, has in nearly forty years generated three sequels, two prequels and two crossovers with Predator, 20th Century Fox's other sci-fi movie monster franchise. The Alien franchise and its iconic star the Xenomorph have also seen adaptations in literature, comic books, graphic novels, and video games, as well as inspiring works across many corners of the entertainment industry. As such, it is unsurprising that there is an appetite for a sequel to last summers Alien: Covenant from some fans of the franchise and general audiences.

As with any movie franchise, the studio responsible for its production is usually as eager as the fanbase to see said franchise continue. Since the release of Alien: Covenant, the second in a series of prequels to 1979's Alien, both 20th Century Fox and it's director Ridley Scott have assured fans a sequel is in development, rumored to be titled Alien: Awakening. Fans have speculated that Awakening will be the last movie in the Alien prequel series and that the movie will tie-in to 1979's Alien. However, there are a growing number of factors working against the possibility of Alien: Awakening ever being made.

#1 Comcast vs Disney
Currently, entertainment industry giants Comcast and Disney are engaged in a bidding war for the rights to most of the intellectual properties and assets owned by 21st Century Fox, of which include those owned by its film studio 20th Century Fox. The distribution rights to the Alien franchise is one of many of these properties, which also include the distribution and/or production rights to franchises such as the Predator, X-Men, Fantastic Four, X-Files, and Planet of the Apes, among many others.

Bidding war aside, a new installment in the Alien franchise could take up to twenty-four months to produce, and that is once director Ridley Scott is available and the movie's screenplay has been greenlit by Fox and/or Comcast or Disney. As long as Disney and Comcast continue to counterbid each other, the bidding war will delay the already lengthy process of redistribution, reallocation and the management of Fox's properties under its new head studio. Which will, in turn, add to the delay before a sequel to Alien: Covenant could be greenlit. Furthermore, with the possibility that Comcast and Disney may have different plans for the properties they will acquire if their bids are successful, Fox is limited by the creative and financial decisions they can make in the long term, in case the successful bidding companies plans are not in-line with those Fox would normally pursue. As such, unless they can reach a mutual creative decision with both bidders, Fox is currently bound to religate properties such as the anticipated Alien: Covenant sequel to development only, further adding to the delay that fans will have to endure for the next installment in their beloved franchise.

#2 Creative Indecisiveness
Covenant continued the story of synthetic android David, portrayed by German/Irish actor Michael Fassbender, from 2012's Prometheus. Covenant revealed that David had used the deadly pathogen created by the Engineers, both of which were introduced in Prometheus, to "engineer" the perfect organism, the Xenomorph. Following the release of Prometheus, its sequel was originally developed to be titled Paradise or Paradise Lost, with reports that the narrative of the sequel would follow David and Dr. Elizabeth Shaw, portrayed by Swedish actress Noomi Rapace, as they journeyed to the "where they (the Engineers) came from" in a quest for resolution and revelation.

However, due to polarizing critical opinion across social media platforms director Scott and studio Fox reassessed their plans for Prometheus' sequel. A narrative exploring the creation of the Xenomorph was instead developed, despite calls from director Scott that the creature was no longer effective as an antagonist and driving force for the franchise. The change in creative direction was echoed throughout the fandom, with Alien: Covenant splintering a fandom that had already been divided by 2012's Prometheus, and the two Alien vs Predator crossovers.

Early reports have suggested that with Alien: Awakening director Scott intends to further explore the character of David, exploring the theme of Artificial Intelligence, with speculation that the Engineers could also return to wage war against the rogue synthetic for his actions against their kin as witnessed in Covenant. This proposal, together with the growing fear among fans that Scott will retcon David to become the enigmatic "Space Jockey" (the dead alien pilot featured in 1979's Alien) has been received with a mixed opinion from both fans and critics.

As echoed in a statement by Fox's president Stacey Snider from last year, the creative direction of Alien: Awakening could be less certain than that of its predecessor, which could further add to the development and production time of the anticipated sequel mentioned above (see #1 Comcast vs Disney).

#3 Commercial Viability
As mentioned above, the heavy retconning of the mythology of the Alien franchise, as evident in Prometheus and its successor Covenant has splintered an already divided fanbase. This became evident when Covenant only earned $240.9 million in worldwide box office takings, as compared to Prometheus' worldwide box office earnings of $403.4 million. With both Prometheus and Covenant being produced with production budgets in the region of $100 million, Covenants low box office earnings suggests a significant drop in interest in the Alien franchise among general audiences, which is further supported by the mixed critical response to both Prometheus and Covenant.

No studio can justify continuing to invest $100 million in the production of installments to a franchise that is struggling both commercially and critically. Unless Alien: Awakening can be produced to a higher standard than its predecessors on a drastically reduced production budget, the likelihood that the movie will be greenlit by Fox and/or Comcast or Disney remains low.

Another factor affecting the commercial viability of Alien: Awakening is the growing, yet unfounded fear among the fanbase and general audiences that should Disney successfully outbid Comcast for 21st Century Fox's assets and intellectual properties that any r-rated properties, such as the Alien franchise will be marginalized for a PG-13 audience, similar to 2004's Alien vs Predator. While it is highly unlikely that Disney would negatively impact such r-rated properties (see Netflix series The Punisher as evidence in proof) the fear, and as such the possibility remains. Reducing the Alien franchise to a PG-13 would potentially open the series up to a larger general audience, but would also limit the darker elements of the series such as its horror genre tropes and its sexual themes.

#4 Ridley Scotts Longevity
There is no escaping the fact that this November 30th the British director of Alien, Prometheus, and Alien: Covenant, Ridley Scott will turn 81 years old. In addition to Alien: Awakening, Scott is currently attached to a number of film and television projects, including but not limited to adaptations of the Battle of Britain, S. Craig Zahler's novel Wraiths of the Broken Land, the 1968 British TV series The Prisoner, the Merlin Saga, and Greg Rucka's novel Queen & Country. While we commend Scott for continuing to work as a director at such an age (for comparison only, legendary Scottish actor Sean Connery, now 87 retired June 2006 at the age of 74), such a crowded filming schedule and the Comcast vs Disney bidding war could delay Alien: Awakenings release for another 3-5 years, at the very least. While we are sure Scott is in good health the chances that he may pass away before Alien: Awakening is greenlit, produced or released are ever increasing. Should Scott pass before, or even during Awakenings production the likelihood of the movie ever being released would fall dramatically, even if any of Scott's children (Jake, Luke, and Jordan) and/or contemporaries were attached to the project.

Comcast and Disneys heated bidding war for 21st Century Fox's assets and intellectual properties, the creative and commercial pressures of successfully completing a prequel trilogy to a movie with a divided fanbase, and the impending possibility that director Ridley Scott could pass away before a sequel to last summers Alien: Covenant is even greenlit puts the existence of a sequel in real jeopardy. Whether or not Scott passes away before Comcast or Disney's acquisition of 21st Century Fox, the successful bidder could, as already mentioned, delay a new installment to the Alien franchise even further, potentially not even continuing with Scott's vision. All of which begs the question of whether or not Ridley Scotts Alien: Awakening will ever be made?

If you're a fan of Alien / Prometheus and would like to discuss Alien: Covenant and its upcoming sequel with other like-minded fans, be sure to join in our Alien: Covenant forum! Ranked the #1 Prometheus forum back in 2012 and reigning as the web's top Alien: Covenant fan site, it's a great place to discuss the upcoming Prometheus sequels, dissect details from every trailer and engage with other fans just like you.

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22 Fan responses to Will the sequel to Alien: Covenant ever be made?

Drake

Jul-03-2018 7:48 AM

Great article Chris. I would argue that a final chapter could still be done even if Ridley is not on board. 

Membrane

Jul-03-2018 7:55 AM

For me, simply put, if Ridley Scott insists on continuing what he did in 'Alien: Covenant', I hope not.  'Prometheus' was good (could have improved some character development and left in some key scenes), but the crap that was in 'Alien: Covenant' was just not for me.  Back to the Engineers, their world and experiments, forget David.

daliens

Jul-04-2018 12:58 AM

Gavin, you forgot Mr. Clint Eastwood who is 88.

No, I don't believe we'll see a sequel for Alien Covenant from the visionary director Ridley Scott, even if he will put his own money in it.

 

MonsterZero

Jul-04-2018 5:36 AM

I'm okay if Alien:Covenant is the last movie. Fantastic cliffhanger . David was so desperate for a human body that he killed Shaw...Now he has thousands to slaughter.

A perfect way to end a space horror series.

No Hollywood happy ending.

No bizarre Ripley tie-in.

Space Jockey will remain a mystery and fan fodder forever.

BigDave

Jul-04-2018 6:16 AM

Nice a Recap GAVIN

I covered these things before and recently and INDEED as time ticks away, it does affect WHERE/WHAT any sequel could be about,  we DONT know how long Sir Ridley Scott will be among us, but certainly the longer its left the LESSER  a role he will play, Directing Movies can be a Tedious Task and when you in your 80' as Each Year passes by it usually limits the Energy/Commitment any one can give to a Project.

I would ASSUME... whoever takes over will talk to Ridley Scott about the Franchise and take on board what IDEAS he has for the Future of the Franchise.... But the BUCK $ will always stop with whoever has the ownership of the Intellectual Property of the Franchise.

And so while they may listen to what Ridley Scotts Vision would be and keep his ideas on record... they will WANT to make sure any Project will make them a good Return on their investment, but also that any Project will make the Franchise Fanbase Pleased while introducing a New Generation to ALL THINGS ALIEN.  So they would not want a movie that would be Critically Disappointing and Damage the Credibility of the Franchise.

SADLY... this is where we are at NOW...  Alien: Covenant was a bit of a Box Office Disappointment... but not a DISASTER you can be sure whoever Produces the Next Movie would want to make a $200M (plus inflation) Profit and with HOW the Franchise is now due to the Plot and Set Up from Alien: Covenant its a Big ask to Continue this route and make a $200M Profit 

The other Problem, really does stem from the Plot/Direction that Alien: Covenant has taken, i would say not a HIGH % of Fanbase are very enthusiastic with the Plot Changes, the Franchise is already Fractured as far as Fanbase and what each wants...

Maybe they should follow Ridley Scotts Vision but then this MAY NOT please many Fans, and who ever takes over has to work out... do we go with what Ridley Scott wants... or do we try and Gauge what the Fans want....  going the route of what the Fans want is Difficult because NO TWO sets of Fans will Want/Expect the Same things.

I think FIRST and FOREMOST they would have to look at what changes the Direction has done as far as Damage the Credibility of the Franchise in the EYES of most Fans.  But even then they have to CONSIDER would any ALIEN movie bring back the Glory Days and Box Office % of the Original Trilogy?

The FINAL thing to consider as i mentioned before, is the AGE of Micheal Fassbender... playing a Synthetic Being poses Problems with any DELAY in Production because we have to ASK.... Do Synthetics Age?    Because DAVID is in the likeness of a 35-38 year old Human Male, and so If no sequel is made until say 5-10 years the longer its left the more they have to explain WHY David looks older.  CGI overlay could Iron Out the Signs of Aging but at a Extra Budget Cost.

I feel the Longer this Franchise is in LIMBO the more chance any sequel would show is David as the Damaged Remains of a Damaged Synthetic like Bishop was in ALIEN 3

BigDave

Jul-04-2018 6:24 AM

DO i think the Sequel would be made?

I hope so, and i am sure there is a Good Chance it would be made, the Set Up has left the Franchise NEEDING a sequel.. as i mentioned the other Day, Alien: Covenant is the Franchise Movie that is left in a way that 100% Lends to a Sequel.

But this does not mean one would be made..... i DO think if they made a Sequel to ALIEN as in Parallel Story or a movie set between ALIEN and ALIENS they would have to reference and tie up loose ends from Alien Covenant.   They SURELY cant leave the Prequels as they are and MOVE onto to something NOT connected.

I think eventually we will get another ALIEN movie... i am not sure if we will get a Conclusion to the Prequels/David Saga.  But i hope they do reference it and so tie up any loose ends.

I do think under Disney we will get something that is more similar to the Alien Franchise and Alien Isolation Video Game and by that i think they will cover the XENOMORPH more and maybe Ripley Saga, and i also think it will maybe not be a FULL HARD R but a Franchise aimed at 15 year olds or maybe 13+

I think Comcast may be the ones willing to not Cover a Franchise thats just about XENOMORPHS and so explore other things the Prequels Set up and be more willing to Aim the Movies at the 18+ Fanbase.

ignorantGuy

Jul-04-2018 8:30 AM

MonsterZero

Indeed, it is very unsettling that thousands of faceless @$$-holes will experimented upon. No sequel will be made when it was clearly intended is a victory? Long live the Newspeak and the New Flesh (and many other new stuff)!

Lone

Jul-04-2018 12:04 PM

What's with all the ageism nowadays? Being an Octogenarian hasn't slowed Ridley down. He's in the fortunate position of doing a job he loves, one which keeps him ticking. I can picture him directing in his nineties. If he's still physically capable I can imagine him expiring on a movie set!

On subject, I hope he gets to follow through. Things have been derailed somewhat since the reaction to Prometheus. Alien: Covenant is not the prequel-sequel Ridley originally envisioned. Unfortunately, it had to shoe horn in the Xeno and the formulaic franchise beats, at the expense of Elizabeth Shaw & the Engineers.

However, it does contain an absolutely brilliant 'twin' performance from the wonderful Fassy. Plus David's lab & it's mind-blowing artwork & creatures. Utterly amazing, painstaking work by Matt, Dane etc, which deserved to be showcased, how I wanted the camera to linger! David & Walter really should have had their own movie.

 

Thoughts_Dreams

Jul-07-2018 5:57 AM

I do not want a sequel just for the sake of it. If there will be one they better have an interesting story and well done characters. A sequel just for having one is meaningless and nothing that automatically makes me interested. The way that Scott insists to make it more about David is nothing that I would like to watch because it is boring, Alien Covenant is an example. Maybe it is good that time ticks so it makes it less possible to make another one about his ideas which would mainly mean more robots, sigh. He can stick to directing other movies but if he tries to affect the story then he should stay away from the Alien Franchise.

“As such, it is unsurprising that there is an appetite for a sequel to last summers Alien: Covenant from some fans of the franchise and general audiences.” - original post

I would like to see numbers on that. I do not think that Alien Covenant helped a lot when it comes to the interest in finishing the prequels. On the contrary it could be that less people became interested in seeing the last part because AC was such a let-down. Some? OK but is that 20%, 50%?

“… there are a growing number of factors working against the possibility of Alien: Awakening ever being made.“ - original post

Well, making it about a crazy robot did not help a lot. I hope that many of the Alien fans show that they expect more than another movie about a crazy AI. Maybe we will never get another Alien or Alien 3 but at least they can try to not make it worse by having the story being about a mad robot.

Get one that has better ideas than to make it about David. If he insists to still make it about David then get another director, that is what I would like to happen at least.

I generally agree with Membrane on this one.

“… but the crap that was in 'Alien: Covenant' was just not for me.” - Membrane

I am not sure why but that got me laughing a lot. It is probably because it is being put in such a blunt way. Thanks!

“I'm okay if Alien:Covenant is the last movie.” - MonsterZero

To have it as the last one would be better than another about a robot with a God complex so I guess so. Too bad that it ended with a movie where a lot was boring. Yes there are parts of Alien Covenant that I like but it does not hold up as a whole. My reason for saying this is that I should probably be clear that I do not dislike everything about it but there are enough parts and ideas that I do not like for me to say that if we do not get a last prequel then I will not cry, let me put it that way.

No thanks to Scott’s vision if it is about David, they should throw that into the trash can. To me it seems healthy that many people are not interested in it and I hope that they will not follow that if it means more David. The issue of David aging as BD says might make it better if we wait because then we will hopefully have a movie that is less about him but of course people have different opinions about that. Sorry but if they will have another movie about him then they can forget my support. Nothing at all is better than one that is mostly boring so yes it would have been better if AC would never have been made.
I want another good alien movie, something that we have not had since Alien 3 so one way to make it better is to focus less on David. Another one about David/David as the main character is something that I will boycott but then to have him like Bishop in Alien 3 could be OK. This is not to have another one with 100 Xenos but to bring us better human characters and focus on their struggles because that is what made Alien 1-3 work.

“Indeed, it is very unsettling that thousands of faceless @$$-holes will experimented upon.” - ignorantGuy

LMAO! Ooh tragedy! ;)

Not only was AC in general a failure but now there is a risk that the next one will also be bad. Thanks Scott and Fox (obvious sarcasm). By way way IG you have a point that the characters in P and AC are not very good (with few exceptions) so to have it about David making something bad to characters that we do not know anything about unless some of them are well-written then it becomes about a robot again so I would not give a damn about that.

Lone: OK but what about the human characters? Sure they could do a spin-off featuring Walter and David but do not have it in the official Alien time line because it doesn’t work with a movie about them as we have seen. I am not interested in a movie about them at all which AC in a way was.

ignorantGuy

Jul-07-2018 8:58 AM

@TD... However, my point was not that the characters were weak in P or AC, but that if you kill off someone who makes sense to keep developing, why should I care for extras? In the 20th century, 100s of millions died of war, famine or because of political reasons, so the "horrific" faith of 2000 anonymous "souls" means nothing. 

Lone

Jul-07-2018 10:58 AM

@Thoughts_Dreams

I know, the lack of likeable, believable & engaging characters has been a major problem for both prequels. I realise most people would be against a Walter-David movie, I was actually half joking in my comment, but like it or not they were far more engrossing than any of the other characters! They need to make the human protagonists as engaging!

If they could accomplish that, plus add some angry Engineers, hell bent on retribution, I'd be happy!  

Lone

Jul-07-2018 11:08 AM

David either has to see the error of his ways & make amends, or be taken to task by the false Gods he once emulated. Either way, a sequel would need to end his story.

 

 

 

123Engineer

Jul-08-2018 4:57 AM

I am pretty sure that there will be a sequel to it. Disney must be crazy if they dont let him finish his series. They dont even have to give Ridley Scott a huge budget. A much smaller one and Scott can still make a good looking movie. It could be even better than the previous ones because he even has to be more creative. 

Galaxy Dave

Jul-09-2018 10:24 AM

I totally agree.  The AI concept is overplayed, especially in other films and stories.  I sure as hell don't want to see anymore movies about boring-ass robots.  JESUS it's so boring.  Who cares!!  I never liked David from the start!  Good riddance.  I could care less if there was a sequel to this mess.  It's best to start with another direction and just have these junk movies explained away as we go forward into scary unknown territory.  Hell, Netflix can do better than Foxscott.  Scott is a great director and artist.  That is all.  Please keep him away from the storyline with his Roman Gods crap.  Jesus how boring!!

Alien is about alien!  It's about creepy strangeness, something entirely foreign and terrifying.  The Space Jockey was so weird!  Best to explore the weirdness of what these aliens are and then up the terrifying strangeness with even more creepy goodness!  It doesn't have to be bloody to be good and scary.  The alien culture doesn't have to make sense because that's what makes it so good because it's the mystery of not knowing.

Galaxy Dave

Jul-09-2018 10:27 AM

Alien: David be Gone

Rated R

BigDave

Jul-12-2018 9:30 AM

I think there are CLEAR Problems that came from the Route they took with the Prequels...

If we FLASHBACK to prior to the Prequels, then the Xenomorph had been done over and over, its appearance in Novels/Comics, Games and the AVP Franchise just TONED it down to a Monstrous Killing Machine that poses a GREAT threat in HAND-TO-HAND Combat, BUT is dispatched with easy from RANGE....   

It was JUST not Scary anymore...  PROOF? Did the Face Hugger Scene in Alien Covenant have the same affect as the First One that Infected KANE? Nope... not really...  The Xenomorph in Alien Covenant was not Scary too... but this depends HOW its used... the Xenomorph was not Scary in ALIENS, Alien Resurrection, AVP and AVPR

Using the Xenomorph to be Scary would be difficult to do, it would require certain SETS/LOCATIONS that are Dark/Claustrophobic  it would require Human Characters to be put in Jeopardy by being Hunted by the Beast, with Little/No Chance of tackling the Xenomorph.  This is what ALIEN and ALIEN  3 had done, but for this to work you have to FEEL a connection to the Characters.  You have to have a sense of their Plight.  And the Xenomorph being used as a Unseen Lurker.

The PROBLEM with this would be HOW do you introduce such a Horror Ride as a Prequel?   This depends on the PLOT and so if we send down Humans to Investigate the Derelict and become Trapped and having to Evade a Xenomorph or TWO...  this would kind of Work, but you would also need to Bring this THREAT back to a Human Ship/Outpost (which is kind of what Alien Covenant attempted).    But by going to the Derelict and then having a Xenomorph END-UP on the Human Ship would just be a Re-hash of ALIEN to a degree... If we introduced More Xenomorphs and Action then it would be similar to Alien Resurrection.

If these Humans instead stumbled on a Installation where these Xenomorphs came from... again this could work, depending WHAT this installation is like as far as Xenomorph Eggs and how many GET LOOSE and so this could give us a kind of Re-Hash of ALIEN 3 or indeed a bit more of a ALIENS/AVP (minus Predators) if we introduce more than TWO Xenomorphs and go for more Action.

So the PROBLEM was how do we Tackle the Prequels...

*A Company/Human Ship investigate the Derelict prior to the Nostromo, but then there is little evidence of any previous visitation of Humans to the Derelict... Unless this Mission results in a Infection that is carried to the Ship (like ALIEN) or some Humans who get attacked end up dying  in other areas of the Derelict the Nostromo Crew had not visited.  THIS Plot being set around the Derelict it would then be  case of HOW does this Provide Answers to WHY/WHEN/HOW those Eggs got on the Derelict and WHO the Pilot was.

*A Human Ship arrives at another Location, that is either a Installation where these Xenomorphs are Experimented on, or Kept to then be Loaded onto the Derelict Space Craft as Bio-Weapons.  Where we are shown this Place Houses Derelict Space Craft.   THIS is the way they decided to go with the Prequels, because it can Introduce/Give Clues to the HOW/WHY/WHEN of the Egg Cargo/Derelict but it can do so in a way that Does-Not Directly lead to the Space Jockey Event.

ALIEN: ENGINEERS took this route, it introduced the Xenomorphs, and gave some clues to the Origins.... but it also covered the BIGGER Mystery which was the Space Jockey Pilot... and to a degree more than just exploring WHAT was the Space Jockey and HOW/WHEN did he get infected and END UP on LV-426

So there was the PLOT around the Space Jockey Race, the Ancient Alien/Gods Plot.... which WHILE Bold.. and Ambitious maybe in HINDSIGHT was a path that maybe should not have been explored.

But its a Question of IF we explored the Space Jockey to be  Race who are NOT connected to Mankind, and are just a Alien Race on the way to a undisclosed location, involved in some Distant/Ancient Conflict and Succumbed to their OWN Bio-Weapon or a Creature they had attempted to Exploit as such.   Its a Case of ONCE this Prequel investigates the Space Jockey, and gives us clues to the Xenomorph Connection and Origin...  Its then WHAT NEXT?  Where does another Prequel come from?      its  only by Awakening some of these Space Jockeys to then be involved in the Prequel... or explored incoming after the Prequel that we can get something a bit different to expand upon...  But its HOW does this Conflict with the Franchise... If Humans go down to the Derelict/Outpost discover the Place these Xenomorphs are Stored on and Shipped to the Cargo Bays.  Awaken a Space Jockey... this Space Jockey Gets Killed.... But he Alerts others who COME in the Next Installment and NOT have this conflict with the Original Franchise.

THIS could have worked... but they decided to give the Space Jockey the Ancient Creators/Gods Angle to add some DEPTH to the Franchise and open the Franchise up to Potentially much more than a ALIEN Species and its Alien Bio-Weapon.

Prometheus was Born from this.... but also Ridley Scott Felt it was interesting to explore DAVID too, because he fitted very well with the Creator/Creation Story ARC...  Which is the BIGGER Picture Ridley Scott had attempted rather than just Xenomorhs, Eggs, Chest Busters etc.

So its THESE Fundamental Themes that the Prequels were Exploring, where EVEN as far back as ALIEN: ENGINEERS the Xenomorph is Reduced to some Organism either Created/Experimented on to be used as a Bio-Weapon... or Discovered and then attempted to be Experimented on to be used as a Bio-Weapon.     The Xenomorph thus becoming just  TOOL of Destruction...

Leaving the REASONS for WHY some Race/Person would Create/Obtain or USE such a Horrific Bio-Weapon.  As the Main Focus rather than HOW such a thing was used...   And in Hindsight the Curve-ball David as Creator may have been a Mistake... but it FITS with the Theme/Reasons for such a Bio-Weapon that Ridley Scott wished to Explore.

The Creation/Sub-Creation, Rebellion/Fear of Rebellion is the KEY theme they are exploring and the Xenomorph is just a TOOL of Destruction, Created at First By/From a Agenda to Create something to Take Away a Proposed Threat (HUMANS) then Evolved to being something Created as a Process of the Above but then Fine Tuned by a Android who wishes to NOT only Perfect the Killing Machine/Bio-Weapon but also wishes to CREATE for himself.

This Plot Change has caused a BIT of a SNAG!

But Ridley Scott and FOX were trying to Expand upon more than a movie being purely about the XENOMORPH.

BigDave

Jul-12-2018 10:25 AM

So the whole Engineers as Humanoid Genetic Space Gardeners, is a PLOT that is Broad but one that maybe disinterests certain Fans...

The movie SHOULD be about the ALIEN as far as a number of Fans are Concerned but the Franchise had more to OFFER than just Xenomorphs and Ripley, and so you have to bring something FRESH and NEW and this was what they was trying to do by Expanding on the Weyland Company by introducing Peter Weyland and also his Creation David to fit into the whole Creation/Creator Arc...  As well as our Creators the Engineers.

It seems Ridley Scott was a Fan of Exploring what is LIFE, what is  SOUL what makes US different to other LIFE on Earth.  We are RELATED to Apes/Monkeys.... so WHY are we so different?  Why have Monkeys/Apes NOT gone on to Build Civilizations

What makes us so Special... Intelligent?  the differences we HAVE over Apes and Especially Monkeys allows us to have Ambition, Desires, Hates, Love the ability to be Empathetic but also Cruel... instead of just ANIMAL Instinct.

The Answers to this lies in the difference of opinion of Religion vs Creationism as in Evolution...  WHY have only Mankind Evolved to this LEVEL? Natural Selection?  Or Something ELSE?

Was it because we are CREATED by GOD?  Or was our EVOLUTION Manipulated/Hybridized and this is the kind of Plot they introduced with our Engineer would be Gods, who Manipulated Our DNA.

Alien Engineers shows us that MANKIND was the Result of Engineer DNA being injected into a PRIMATE to Evolve it into a Engineer/Primate Hybrid AKA Humans and that these Engineers came back further Evolve us both Genetically but Technologically too.

So looking at this we can see the Objective is to SHOW that its the Engineers DNA Upgrades and Visitations/Teaching us of Knowledge that Separates us from Primates.

We are Bio-Logical Machines... our Brains are more Evolved/Advanced than Apes/Monkeys so we have more Emotions, and the Ability to Create as in various forms of Art/Construction and have Feelings and Emotions more COMPLEX than Monkeys...

THIS is where the AI Aspect comes into play.... a Machine is Created to Perform a Task, it has a set limitation on what it can DO and in the Future Advanced Robots may be able to Perform Tasks a Human Can, and Interact with Each other and our Commands... but they are BASIC and so what Ridley Scott was trying to explore is just as the Difference between a Human and a Ape in terms of our Brains/Evolution and Abilities... he is asking WHAT happens when Machines with Advanced AI become so Advanced, and they become Sentient.

A Human is a Bio-Logical Machine....  A Robot is a Synthetic Machine.

We have Free-Will, Advanced Thoughts and Emotions that Separate us from Apes and Machines.... BUT what happens if a AI is created that can have Free-Will, Advanced Thoughts and Emotions.

This is what Ridley Scott is touching upon... IF we look at this Point, then all that differs is ONE is a Bio-Logical Humanoid.... the other is a Synthetic Humanoid.

LEAVING ONLY TWO Differences (mainly)

*Biological Humans CAN Procreate Naturally (Breed) a Machine Can-Not.

*Biological Humans HAVE a Soul (Its a Question then of DO WE? and what constitutes a Soul).

So we then come to DAVID who as a Humanoid Being (Synthetic) has ADVANCES in every Aspect that a Human Being (Organic) has, he is Stronger, Smarter, Faster and he is not subjected to the Health issues and Aging Process that brings DEATH to us Mortals.

David is thus SUPERIOR to us in EVERY way apart from those TWO Points.....  He Cant Procreate and he Does-Not have a Soul.

So RS is exploring HOW would such a being as David who is Superior to his Creators, and yet is Created to Serve, how does this being FEEL, and what is different... A SOUL?  But what is a Soul?  A Spirit that Lives on after Death?  is there any PROOF? and in context to the SCI-FI Plot do Humans have such Souls?

With David his AI (Memories/Experiences/Emotions) could maybe be Uploaded to a system/computer and Transferred into a NEW Body, would this not GIVE David LIFE after DEATH... thus a SOUL?

If Mankind Does-Not have such a SOUL (Spirit) but the Soul is defined by the other meanings for a Soul... then David could also have a Soul based on these too.

The Next Thing is Creation... would this effect David?  Does his ability to not be able to Create make him feel In-superior?   Does he see that because his Creator PETER Weyland created David that this makes him a GOD, and because Mankind Can Procreate/Create Life means they are Superior?   And what of the GODS? Those Engineers, do they Procreate? we know they can from Alien Covenant and they also Created Mankind.

So IF David could Create his own Creation/Life then would that put him on Equal Footing to the Gods/Mankind.

THESE are the things Ridley Scott was very interested in, SADLY not every one is interested in such things, or they feel its a distraction from the ALIEN Franchise which should be about XENOMORPHS

I find the AI aspect Interesting, but i feel the way it came across in Alien Covenant did come across as a MAD ROBOT, when Ridley Scott wants to pose the Questions of WHAT is a Robot?  and are Humans just Biological Robots?

It was the execution of Davids Arc/Character that Disappointed, compared to the Pinocchio Boy of Prometheus .  And as DAVID is a Main Character, people just struggle to connect with a NONE Human Character but more so the way David came across.

While in Prometheus and the Crossing, i guess people could feel more Sympathy with David....  and so THIS is what they need to Focus on, they need to give us History to WHAT makes David become such a Twisted and Evil being....

And his Abuse/Neglect by his Creator and Humans are something that could be explored to help us understand his upbringing had affected the kind of BEING David has become.

BigDave

Jul-12-2018 1:45 PM

@Galaxy Dave

There is a Problem with the Franchise due to the Prequels, there now is many domination's of Fans with different likes/dislikes,  its certainly hard to please every fan.  I think there is NO real fix to please everyone.

IF we choose to By-Pass David this would be difficult because he played a Large Role in the Prequels... EVEN if we decide to only Cover the Xenomorph Origins then the Dilemma we are left with is this Question.

*Does the Xenomorphs Origins Stem from the Events of the Prequels, concluding with Davids Experiments?   

IF they decide to U-Turn and have it that NO David Did-Not Create the Original Xenomorph then they are left with TWO options.

*Do they continue with the Plot after Covenant and Where this Ship (Covenant) is off too, and then conclude and show that David has merely Re-Created his own Version of the Xenomorph?  But if they do this then it surely has to give David some Role to Play, as going this route with NO David would just not add up... Unless its a Aftermath Type Movie where a Human Ship arrives to a Origae-6 Colony in the aftermath of Davids Xenomorphs with David being nothing more than a Destroyed Corpse... but then it would be wise to activate him to get some Narration/Background information to what happened.

*IF they give us something else then how is this going to COVER the Xenomorph Origins or give us the Clues to it, but completely avoid the events of Alien Covenant?  Maybe this leaves us having a Human Mission to LV-223 or LV-426 were this Movie covers more clues to the Xenomorph Origins that Shed Light on the Events of Alien Covenant merely being Davids attempts to Re-create the Xenomorph but then its a case of again do they leave what happened to those Colonist and the Covenant a Mystery?

The Next Problem we come to is the Engineers, some fans were interested in the Engineers and would have wanted to find out more about these beings.   Do they introduce the Engineers into any of the Plots as mentioned in the previous Paragraph?

Or do they leave them OUT leaving us with unanswered Questions regarding their History/Agenda and Connection with Mankind/Our History as well as what other Species/Agendas they have and have influenced.

I think leaving the Engineers out would disappoint a number of Fans, introducing the Angry LV-223 Engineers but not giving us much of their History or Agenda would go some way to please some Fans... But then i feel a lot of Prometheus Fans was looking forwards to their Culture/Agenda and Purpose as well as seeing them and their Technology.

I dont think making any Prequel that Totally Ignores the Engineers and David would WORK...  what is LEFT once you remove them?  The Xenomorph and Greedy WY Company wishing to obtain the Xenomorph?  But would we get any clues to WHY and what set up Special Order 937?  If they choose to not do so and give us NO reasons behind WHY the company wants the Xenomorph, then i think all we would get is a REHASH of ALIENS where they may as well throw Ripley Back into it to Please Fanboys some more.

So i feel they have to keep David/Engineers in some Role, even if its the same as Alien Covenant where David now replaces Dr Shaw as the discovery of only a Corpse.  And we are left with Dead Engineers, but Flash Backs of What Happened... But again this may displease a lot of Prometheus Fans.

I think something to consider is Prometheus opened up some of the fans to something NEW/Fresh, and as a Alien Prequel its much more than being just about XENOMORPHS but there are a lot of Fans who think everything has to Center around Xenomorphs..

But then how many more Xenomorph movies can we have before it becomes STALE?  and when we cross that BRIDGE what is there Next?

So it is about Balance...

I do think the Safest Move is to give us a AFTERMATH movie.

So we have had David and the Covenant, they arrive on Origae-6 and then whatever events happen in the 1-3 years after they arrive on Origae-6 is when WE arrive at our AFTERMATH movie.

So we arrive in the Year 2113-2115 when a Human Ship arrives on Origae-6 to discover a Place of Hell...  and a Damaged Synthetic David.

The Question then is IF they go this route... do they have the Answer to the DERELICT?  Do they decide its a Ancient Event? Or a Event that happens after the Events of Alien Covenant?

Thoughts_Dreams

Jul-15-2018 3:33 AM

IgnorantGuy: OK I understand

Lone: Yeah but that seems to be because the robots were the only ones that they cared to make a story about. This robot-centric kind of movie is not what an alien movie should be about. Just go away with that shi--. Exactly they need to care as much about the humans as they do about the androids or else it is fucked.

Sure, more Engineers would be nice. I hope that we will see some more about their culture, weapons, and so on. Maybe there will not be much about their culture in the next movie if it will be the last one but some of it would be interesting. How about an Engineer army? I could imagine them having different space ships and weapons that mankind are not even close to having. This could really be something like some lord of the rings stuff like an orc army (Lord of the Rings) but Engineer style. Perhaps they could make something that is close to it at least, how likely that is can be questioned.

I agree with Galaxy Dave that David is done, how ever I hope that we will see more of the Engineers because I believe that they can be made interesting So Galaxy Dave, how about the Engineers? They could be made interesting if they really try, that is what I think at least.

Thoughts_Dreams

Jul-15-2018 3:35 AM

BD:

Well it can be scary if you do not over-expose it and make relatable human characters. This is also a reason why I said a bunch of posts back that they need to make the Engineers scary as F since we know less about them than the Xeno. Keeps the Xenos in the background, it worked in Alien since we did not see a lot of it and since its origins were unknown at the time.

By the way as far as the Engineer going berserk is concerned (Prometheus) it could have worked if we got a bit more background and would have had better human characters. The idea in itself seems alright to me at least so yeah you can do something new. This could be frightening and not be something directly Xeno-ish but it has got to be done right so that could be possible.

The reason why the Xeno was not scary in AC is that they just threw it in just to have it there (probably because the studio told them to do so). You could see that Scott did not give a damn about it. Keep it in the shadows, less is more in this case (as weird as that expressions might sound).

How you introduce it? Take the Hammerpede as an example, the way it got into Milburn’s mouth was icky so it worked for me at least. Creating disgust could work probably more than genuine terror from the Xeno.

P and AC did not work that well since we did not get relatable human characters but had they managed to do so then I think that fear thing could have worked.

“But its HOW does this Conflict with the Franchise... If Humans go down to the Derelict/Outpost discover the Place these Xenomorphs are Stored on and Shipped to the Cargo Bays.  Awaken a Space Jockey... this Space Jockey Gets Killed.... But he Alerts others who COME in the Next Installment and NOT have this conflict with the Original Franchise.” - BD

Well, it would have been a lot better than having a story about David.

“Which is the BIGGER Picture Ridley Scott had attempted rather than just Xenomorhs, Eggs, Chest Busters etc.”  - BD

Don’t care since it was made in such a bad way (I mainly mean AC). His focus was on David first and the humans second, which is the opposite of how it should be. The Engineers are a lot more interesting than David. I am sorry but this direction that they took AC into is just bad. I do not care about the robot thing and also they should have had better human characters and have had more about the Engineers and let us know a bit more about them. Like with the Xeno we do not need to know everything about them, but just some bits and pieces so we can sit down and think about it just like the Xeno after Alien made people think.


“FITS with the Theme/Reasons for such a Bio-Weapon that Ridley Scott wished to Explore.” - BD

I do not care about the themes if we do not get relatable human characters and have a focus on robots. It is like if you are at a hockey game and there are two teams that you want to see how they do and if both play like crap then what reason is there to stay? This is how it is with David (team one) and the themes (team two), I do not really care. Prometheus is a movie that I can watch a bit now and then although it was months since I watched it last. Covenant is a movie that just makes me disappointed so no thanks.

“… by a Android who wishes to NOT only Perfect the Killing Machine/Bio-Weapon but also wishes to CREATE for himself.” - BD

Which is crappy as F. The focus on the android is bad and it is too close to humans. I understand the theme but I do not like how it was executed on the screen. As far as expanding the franchise they should have had more about the Engineers and better human characters, hell the Engineers were interesting so they took the absolutely wrong direction with AC.

Having the company doing some shady things why not? It could have been interesting but don’t let us know too much about it. I would rather have watched that than a movie about an android that gets all the shine so to speak.

I am not even sure if the movie is about the Xeno, to me it is about humans that get into situations that they are not prepared for and bad things happen. The Xeno could have been replaced with what ever monster if it would have been as effective but the focus in Alien 1-3 were at the humans so it is really about the human journey and not the monster. The monster is just a symbol for our fears which is the way it should be the way I look at it.

 


“THIS is where the AI Aspect comes into play....” - BD

OK but the whole focus is on the robot so that is not the least interesting to me. I understand what you are trying to say but the way it comes off on screen is boring.

“THESE are the things Ridley Scott was very interested in...” - BD

Fine for him but let him do so in other movies. Not in the alien franchise because it does not work and the proof is that AC and Prometheus to a lesser degree have been disappointments in characters and in profits. Themes over characters does not work for me at least. He and Fox have had the whole prioritization wrong thus one average movie and one that is mostly crappy.

“… or they feel its a distraction from the ALIEN Franchise which should be about XENOMORPHS” - BD

Nah, it is not like that to me. The main thing is that it is about relatable human characters that get into situations that they are not prepared to handle. Even when Luke was in the snow blizzard that worked because he was relatable and he was in a situation that he was not prepared for and almost died (Wampa and shitty weather). Replace Luke with relatable human characters in Alien and the Wampa with the Xeno or other related monsters and you have the same thing in two different movies that have things in common, you see? My point is that if SW would have had bad characters it would also have failed (OT) but it managed to float while AC did not. 10000 Xenos are not needed but interesting characters are.

“It was the execution of Davids Arc/Character that Disappointed, compared to the Pinocchio Boy of Prometheus .  And as DAVID is a Main Character, people just struggle to connect with a NONE Human Character but more so the way David came across.”

Do not forget that to me at least this was a reason combined with human characters that were not well written or executed. This is why AC does not work for me but I gave it a chance so I know what I am talking about other than to judge it on what some friend said. By the way, I do not care about a story why David became the way he did because I have lost interest in him although I can still watch him in P but do not continue it. I do not care about the robot thing, get rid of that and then we might get some improvement.

BigDave

Jul-16-2018 12:49 PM

Once Again Thoughts_Dreams you bring up Characters, which when they are as you said, relatable so we can engage with their situation.  And how well these are executed and plans DO make a BIG difference.

"I am not even sure if the movie is about the Xeno, to me it is about humans that get into situations that they are not prepared for and bad things happen."

"Replace Luke with relatable human characters in Alien and the Wampa with the Xeno or other related monsters and you have the same thing in two different movies that have things in common, you see?"

Everyone has their OWN opinions on that subject, but if you Questioned a 100 Random People about the Franchise it is the ALIEN and Ripley they stick out as the movie being about them.  But your points are BANG on the Money as far as HOW supporting Human Characters are used and situations they are faced in were we can FEEL their sense of Jeopardy.

While the Franchise was about the Xenomorph and Ripley, without the supporting Cast and the Plot/Situations they was Placed in and how WELL this was executed from Alien => Alien 3 are the Main reasons these  movies Worked, where Alien Resurrection and the Prequels kind of NEVER.   The Skywalker and Womba comment is very fitting as indeed you can Swap Out Main Character and Monster and its if the Scene has that Sense of Realism and Plight that the viewer can Relate too then it makes the Fear/Predicament Work rather than being a Dumb Monster Movie.

The Xenomorph has been done to death, as far as we all KNOW what it looks like, what it CAN do and all we dont know was WHERE did this Beast Come From......

Alien Covenant it did seem Forced and Rushed, and i feel the Xenomorph can still be made Scary by Virtue of the way it is used in a limited role as far as HOW it was used in Alien and Alien 3, then yes it would still work if the Scenes are Well Written, Well Shot and the BIG thing would be as you say... we need to CONNECT with the Characters who will be in Jeopardy vs the Monster...  If we see the Xenomorph show as we have in the AVP Movies, Aliens and Alien Resurrection then i think it really has lost that Scare Factor when used like that.

 

BigDave

Jul-16-2018 1:31 PM

On to the General Direction of the Prequels.

One Element was to show us or give us clues to HOW/WHEN the Xenomorph came to be, which could have involved having to Introduce us to the Xenomorph as Alien Covenant had done.  But once you have shown HOW/WHEN the Xenomorph came to be, its a case of HOW do you showcase the Beast.... because even if its done like in ALIEN/ALIEN 3 the Question is WHAT NEXT?  Another movie about the Xenomorph but then would going for a similar route to a Alien/Alien 3 work again for the 2nd time in a Row?  And if they went for a more Aliens/Alien Resurrection route... ONCE we have seen the Xenomorph a few more times, then its a Question of Can we keep showing it over and over?    And also IF we had a Direct Route where they showed either as in very solid Clues or a Direct Shooting of the Space Jockey Event, all we are doing is CONNECTING the Dots.

So what the Prequels set out to do was not so much the WHEN/WHERE but the WHY and so it was the WHY would someone Create/Make such a Horrific Organism... The Emphasis was thus pushed onto the Origins being related to something Created/Experimented on and to really tell us WHY was these Experiments conducted.

Which seemed to begin with it being something Created to be used to Wipe Clean Worlds of Failed Experiments and Rebellious or Deemed Unsuccessful Creation Projects,  possible also as Protection from FEAR of what Sentient Rebellious Out of Control Creations could pose.

PROMETHEUS arose from this, by deciding to Tone Down the Xenomorph and that we DONT have to see any, or indeed Spoon Feed the Derelict/Egg Cargo... But give us clues to that these were connected to Horrific Experiments that the Engineers had conducted with the BLACK GOO providing clues to help us understand their was a Connection but also being Ambiguous.  But the the MAIN Focus would be one WHY which was revealed that these Engineers/Space Jockey Race had created/evolved Mankind and got displeased with how we Turned out and so began to Experiment in Creating BIO-WARFARE to eradicate us which Lead to a HUGE HUBRIS for them.

Had they NOT created us, they would not have needed to Eradicate us, and so the LV-223 Outbreak would not have happened, and the Aftermath where Humans came to this place with the Syntehtic David who then ended up taking ONE of the Engineers Bio-Weapons and using it on their Home-world.

The Theme was thus about Creation and how in Hindsight Creating something that is very similar to yourself, which can gain Free-will and Independence can lead to Problems...      And in Context to this Theme, it followed through with DAVID which some just interpret as being about ROBOTS where the Actual Theme is about Sub-Creating something in your image that is then allowed/gains independence and sees its self as not being a Servant, and seeing itself as on Equal or Greater Footing as its Creator. 

This is a theme we are shown had happened between the Engineers and Mankind, and then Mankind and AI  and indeed its seen in the Greek Mythos of the Titans vs Olympians,  in the Sumerian,  Annunaki and Iggi and also in GOD vs Fallen Angels.

For some Fans this was interesting to explore out Engineers in this Context, but for some it was these THEMES that steered to Far from ALIEN and the Xenomorph..  The Human Characters are what made it WORK, but we could have replaced Xenomorph with Engineers, or Engineer Created Horrors or another THREAT but it needed Good Human Characters for sure.... which the Prequels Lacked.

These THEMES was something New and Fresh that Ridley Scott wished to explore where our Xenomorph was NOW just  Weapon Created for Destruction of Humans/Engineers.   And Ridley Scott Felt the WHY! Was the BIGGER thing to explore, which was discussed above in Context to Prometheus....  but the Curveball U-Turn that David Created was something Ridley Scott felt was more interesting because it HIGHLIGHTS that Hubris Theme more.... that you SHOULD NOT Sub-Create and if you do, you DONT create something so like Humans that can Think for Itself.  So this route becomes a Double Hubris on the Engineers Part who without creating Mankind, would not have David turn up and Bombard them and also then If Weyland had not created a AI that could become independent then there would be NO Xenomorph threat.

There are other Reasons for WHY too that was explored.

The Prequels tried to explore the TWO things David has not got..

*A Soul as in a Spirit that Lives on Once a Body Dies... but who is to say WE have such a Soul?  A AI that can Save/Upload its Memories, Experiences and Emotions and then this lives on in a Computer System/Network or is Uploaded to a NEW Body would MAKE AI actually have a Soul so to Speak.

*The Ability to Create Life...  which David and Dr Shaw lacked, but the Black Goo Provided Dr Shaw a way to CREATE but just not in the Traditional Sense.    IF David could Create his OWN Life then it would be another thing he LACKED that Humans dont that he NOW has.

My interpretations was also about Legacy, as the Ozymandias Poem touches on.      WHEN we Die what is left behind?

If there is NO Soul/After Life, then it is the Deeds, what we have created/accomplished that Immortalize us.  Be these by various Art Forms, be it Music, Art or what ever.   Our Deeds can Immortalize us, Political/Military High Ranked Figures and Royalty can live on because they are FAMOUS and have Statues etc Built in their Memory/Honor.

The other way you can LIVE ON is via your Memories/Stories passed on by Generations and your CHILDREN, i think we can see these themes explored in the Engineers and their Monuments, and also Mankind and indeed Weylands Achievements his Works/Deeds that make his Name Remembered...  But all of these are not TRULY Immortalized as over TIME Races Die Out, their Achievements Forgotten with NO ONE to pass them on and only Monuments remaining that in Time Fade to Dust.

Hence the Ozymandias reference.....  this applies to Mankind and Engineers, but DAVID is somewhat different as he is NOT Flesh and Blood. So he could be seen as a EVOLUTION of Intelligent Life but for many he comes across as just a ROBOT.

So David is shown to want to Create not only as a way to Eradicate Humanity and Engineers which he sees as in-superior and flawed, but to also Create a Perfect Life-Form of his own as his OWN Legacy and then Unleash his Works on those who created him.

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

But these Themes do seem to distract away from the ALIEN Franchise a bit to much for some, and with Poor Character use, and No Engineers it did make a movie about DAVID too much and it could be RS plans are to explore the Larger Role of AI in the Franchise and also the Creation/Creator Subplot where the Engineers could be introduced back.

But for MANY these are just a route that is not connected to the ALIEN Franchise enough..... This is thanks to the pressure on RS to introduce the Xenomorph and make a Direct Prequel series... as PROMETHEUS was intended to offer a different direction that steers away from ALIEN

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