DrakeFacehuggerMember133 XPJul-03-2018 7:48 AM
Great article Chris. I would argue that a final chapter could still be done even if Ridley is not on board.
MembraneFacehuggerMember159 XPJul-03-2018 7:55 AM
For me, simply put, if Ridley Scott insists on continuing what he did in 'Alien: Covenant', I hope not. 'Prometheus' was good (could have improved some character development and left in some key scenes), but the crap that was in 'Alien: Covenant' was just not for me. Back to the Engineers, their world and experiments, forget David.
SuperAlienXenomorphMember1303 XPJul-04-2018 12:58 AM
Gavin, you forgot Mr. Clint Eastwood who is 88.
No, I don't believe we'll see a sequel for Alien Covenant from the visionary director Ridley Scott, even if he will put his own money in it.
MonsterZeroXenomorphMember1310 XPJul-04-2018 5:36 AM
I'm okay if Alien:Covenant is the last movie. Fantastic cliffhanger . David was so desperate for a human body that he killed Shaw...Now he has thousands to slaughter.
A perfect way to end a space horror series.
No Hollywood happy ending.
No bizarre Ripley tie-in.
Space Jockey will remain a mystery and fan fodder forever.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPJul-04-2018 6:16 AM
Nice a Recap GAVIN
I covered these things before and recently and INDEED as time ticks away, it does affect WHERE/WHAT any sequel could be about, we DONT know how long Sir Ridley Scott will be among us, but certainly the longer its left the LESSER a role he will play, Directing Movies can be a Tedious Task and when you in your 80' as Each Year passes by it usually limits the Energy/Commitment any one can give to a Project.
I would ASSUME... whoever takes over will talk to Ridley Scott about the Franchise and take on board what IDEAS he has for the Future of the Franchise.... But the BUCK $ will always stop with whoever has the ownership of the Intellectual Property of the Franchise.
And so while they may listen to what Ridley Scotts Vision would be and keep his ideas on record... they will WANT to make sure any Project will make them a good Return on their investment, but also that any Project will make the Franchise Fanbase Pleased while introducing a New Generation to ALL THINGS ALIEN. So they would not want a movie that would be Critically Disappointing and Damage the Credibility of the Franchise.
SADLY... this is where we are at NOW... Alien: Covenant was a bit of a Box Office Disappointment... but not a DISASTER you can be sure whoever Produces the Next Movie would want to make a $200M (plus inflation) Profit and with HOW the Franchise is now due to the Plot and Set Up from Alien: Covenant its a Big ask to Continue this route and make a $200M Profit
The other Problem, really does stem from the Plot/Direction that Alien: Covenant has taken, i would say not a HIGH % of Fanbase are very enthusiastic with the Plot Changes, the Franchise is already Fractured as far as Fanbase and what each wants...
Maybe they should follow Ridley Scotts Vision but then this MAY NOT please many Fans, and who ever takes over has to work out... do we go with what Ridley Scott wants... or do we try and Gauge what the Fans want.... going the route of what the Fans want is Difficult because NO TWO sets of Fans will Want/Expect the Same things.
I think FIRST and FOREMOST they would have to look at what changes the Direction has done as far as Damage the Credibility of the Franchise in the EYES of most Fans. But even then they have to CONSIDER would any ALIEN movie bring back the Glory Days and Box Office % of the Original Trilogy?
The FINAL thing to consider as i mentioned before, is the AGE of Micheal Fassbender... playing a Synthetic Being poses Problems with any DELAY in Production because we have to ASK.... Do Synthetics Age? Because DAVID is in the likeness of a 35-38 year old Human Male, and so If no sequel is made until say 5-10 years the longer its left the more they have to explain WHY David looks older. CGI overlay could Iron Out the Signs of Aging but at a Extra Budget Cost.
I feel the Longer this Franchise is in LIMBO the more chance any sequel would show is David as the Damaged Remains of a Damaged Synthetic like Bishop was in ALIEN 3
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPJul-04-2018 6:24 AM
DO i think the Sequel would be made?
I hope so, and i am sure there is a Good Chance it would be made, the Set Up has left the Franchise NEEDING a sequel.. as i mentioned the other Day, Alien: Covenant is the Franchise Movie that is left in a way that 100% Lends to a Sequel.
But this does not mean one would be made..... i DO think if they made a Sequel to ALIEN as in Parallel Story or a movie set between ALIEN and ALIENS they would have to reference and tie up loose ends from Alien Covenant. They SURELY cant leave the Prequels as they are and MOVE onto to something NOT connected.
I think eventually we will get another ALIEN movie... i am not sure if we will get a Conclusion to the Prequels/David Saga. But i hope they do reference it and so tie up any loose ends.
I do think under Disney we will get something that is more similar to the Alien Franchise and Alien Isolation Video Game and by that i think they will cover the XENOMORPH more and maybe Ripley Saga, and i also think it will maybe not be a FULL HARD R but a Franchise aimed at 15 year olds or maybe 13+
I think Comcast may be the ones willing to not Cover a Franchise thats just about XENOMORPHS and so explore other things the Prequels Set up and be more willing to Aim the Movies at the 18+ Fanbase.
ignorantGuyChestbursterMember900 XPJul-04-2018 8:30 AM
Indeed, it is very unsettling that thousands of faceless @$$-holes will experimented upon. No sequel will be made when it was clearly intended is a victory? Long live the Newspeak and the New Flesh (and many other new stuff)!
LonePraetorianMember2674 XPJul-04-2018 12:04 PM
What's with all the ageism nowadays? Being an Octogenarian hasn't slowed Ridley down. He's in the fortunate position of doing a job he loves, one which keeps him ticking. I can picture him directing in his nineties. If he's still physically capable I can imagine him expiring on a movie set!
On subject, I hope he gets to follow through. Things have been derailed somewhat since the reaction to Prometheus. Alien: Covenant is not the prequel-sequel Ridley originally envisioned. Unfortunately, it had to shoe horn in the Xeno and the formulaic franchise beats, at the expense of Elizabeth Shaw & the Engineers.
However, it does contain an absolutely brilliant 'twin' performance from the wonderful Fassy. Plus David's lab & it's mind-blowing artwork & creatures. Utterly amazing, painstaking work by Matt, Dane etc, which deserved to be showcased, how I wanted the camera to linger! David & Walter really should have had their own movie.
Thoughts_DreamsNeomorphMember1675 XPJul-07-2018 5:57 AM
I do not want a sequel just for the sake of it. If there will be one they better have an interesting story and well done characters. A sequel just for having one is meaningless and nothing that automatically makes me interested. The way that Scott insists to make it more about David is nothing that I would like to watch because it is boring, Alien Covenant is an example. Maybe it is good that time ticks so it makes it less possible to make another one about his ideas which would mainly mean more robots, sigh. He can stick to directing other movies but if he tries to affect the story then he should stay away from the Alien Franchise.
“As such, it is unsurprising that there is an appetite for a sequel to last summers Alien: Covenant from some fans of the franchise and general audiences.” - original post
I would like to see numbers on that. I do not think that Alien Covenant helped a lot when it comes to the interest in finishing the prequels. On the contrary it could be that less people became interested in seeing the last part because AC was such a let-down. Some? OK but is that 20%, 50%?
“… there are a growing number of factors working against the possibility of Alien: Awakening ever being made.“ - original post
Well, making it about a crazy robot did not help a lot. I hope that many of the Alien fans show that they expect more than another movie about a crazy AI. Maybe we will never get another Alien or Alien 3 but at least they can try to not make it worse by having the story being about a mad robot.
Get one that has better ideas than to make it about David. If he insists to still make it about David then get another director, that is what I would like to happen at least.
I generally agree with Membrane on this one.
“… but the crap that was in 'Alien: Covenant' was just not for me.” - Membrane
I am not sure why but that got me laughing a lot. It is probably because it is being put in such a blunt way. Thanks!
“I'm okay if Alien:Covenant is the last movie.” - MonsterZero
To have it as the last one would be better than another about a robot with a God complex so I guess so. Too bad that it ended with a movie where a lot was boring. Yes there are parts of Alien Covenant that I like but it does not hold up as a whole. My reason for saying this is that I should probably be clear that I do not dislike everything about it but there are enough parts and ideas that I do not like for me to say that if we do not get a last prequel then I will not cry, let me put it that way.
No thanks to Scott’s vision if it is about David, they should throw that into the trash can. To me it seems healthy that many people are not interested in it and I hope that they will not follow that if it means more David. The issue of David aging as BD says might make it better if we wait because then we will hopefully have a movie that is less about him but of course people have different opinions about that. Sorry but if they will have another movie about him then they can forget my support. Nothing at all is better than one that is mostly boring so yes it would have been better if AC would never have been made.
I want another good alien movie, something that we have not had since Alien 3 so one way to make it better is to focus less on David. Another one about David/David as the main character is something that I will boycott but then to have him like Bishop in Alien 3 could be OK. This is not to have another one with 100 Xenos but to bring us better human characters and focus on their struggles because that is what made Alien 1-3 work.
“Indeed, it is very unsettling that thousands of faceless @$$-holes will experimented upon.” - ignorantGuy
LMAO! Ooh tragedy! ;)
Not only was AC in general a failure but now there is a risk that the next one will also be bad. Thanks Scott and Fox (obvious sarcasm). By way way IG you have a point that the characters in P and AC are not very good (with few exceptions) so to have it about David making something bad to characters that we do not know anything about unless some of them are well-written then it becomes about a robot again so I would not give a damn about that.
Lone: OK but what about the human characters? Sure they could do a spin-off featuring Walter and David but do not have it in the official Alien time line because it doesn’t work with a movie about them as we have seen. I am not interested in a movie about them at all which AC in a way was.
ignorantGuyChestbursterMember900 XPJul-07-2018 8:58 AM
@TD... However, my point was not that the characters were weak in P or AC, but that if you kill off someone who makes sense to keep developing, why should I care for extras? In the 20th century, 100s of millions died of war, famine or because of political reasons, so the "horrific" faith of 2000 anonymous "souls" means nothing.
LonePraetorianMember2674 XPJul-07-2018 10:58 AM
I know, the lack of likeable, believable & engaging characters has been a major problem for both prequels. I realise most people would be against a Walter-David movie, I was actually half joking in my comment, but like it or not they were far more engrossing than any of the other characters! They need to make the human protagonists as engaging!
If they could accomplish that, plus add some angry Engineers, hell bent on retribution, I'd be happy!
LonePraetorianMember2674 XPJul-07-2018 11:08 AM
David either has to see the error of his ways & make amends, or be taken to task by the false Gods he once emulated. Either way, a sequel would need to end his story.
123EngineerFacehuggerMember143 XPJul-08-2018 4:57 AM
I am pretty sure that there will be a sequel to it. Disney must be crazy if they dont let him finish his series. They dont even have to give Ridley Scott a huge budget. A much smaller one and Scott can still make a good looking movie. It could be even better than the previous ones because he even has to be more creative.
Galaxy DaveOvomorphMember23 XPJul-09-2018 10:24 AM
I totally agree. The AI concept is overplayed, especially in other films and stories. I sure as hell don't want to see anymore movies about boring-ass robots. JESUS it's so boring. Who cares!! I never liked David from the start! Good riddance. I could care less if there was a sequel to this mess. It's best to start with another direction and just have these junk movies explained away as we go forward into scary unknown territory. Hell, Netflix can do better than Foxscott. Scott is a great director and artist. That is all. Please keep him away from the storyline with his Roman Gods crap. Jesus how boring!!
Alien is about alien! It's about creepy strangeness, something entirely foreign and terrifying. The Space Jockey was so weird! Best to explore the weirdness of what these aliens are and then up the terrifying strangeness with even more creepy goodness! It doesn't have to be bloody to be good and scary. The alien culture doesn't have to make sense because that's what makes it so good because it's the mystery of not knowing.
Galaxy DaveOvomorphMember23 XPJul-09-2018 10:27 AM
Alien: David be Gone
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPJul-12-2018 9:30 AM
I think there are CLEAR Problems that came from the Route they took with the Prequels...
If we FLASHBACK to prior to the Prequels, then the Xenomorph had been done over and over, its appearance in Novels/Comics, Games and the AVP Franchise just TONED it down to a Monstrous Killing Machine that poses a GREAT threat in HAND-TO-HAND Combat, BUT is dispatched with easy from RANGE....
It was JUST not Scary anymore... PROOF? Did the Face Hugger Scene in Alien Covenant have the same affect as the First One that Infected KANE? Nope... not really... The Xenomorph in Alien Covenant was not Scary too... but this depends HOW its used... the Xenomorph was not Scary in ALIENS, Alien Resurrection, AVP and AVPR
Using the Xenomorph to be Scary would be difficult to do, it would require certain SETS/LOCATIONS that are Dark/Claustrophobic it would require Human Characters to be put in Jeopardy by being Hunted by the Beast, with Little/No Chance of tackling the Xenomorph. This is what ALIEN and ALIEN 3 had done, but for this to work you have to FEEL a connection to the Characters. You have to have a sense of their Plight. And the Xenomorph being used as a Unseen Lurker.
The PROBLEM with this would be HOW do you introduce such a Horror Ride as a Prequel? This depends on the PLOT and so if we send down Humans to Investigate the Derelict and become Trapped and having to Evade a Xenomorph or TWO... this would kind of Work, but you would also need to Bring this THREAT back to a Human Ship/Outpost (which is kind of what Alien Covenant attempted). But by going to the Derelict and then having a Xenomorph END-UP on the Human Ship would just be a Re-hash of ALIEN to a degree... If we introduced More Xenomorphs and Action then it would be similar to Alien Resurrection.
If these Humans instead stumbled on a Installation where these Xenomorphs came from... again this could work, depending WHAT this installation is like as far as Xenomorph Eggs and how many GET LOOSE and so this could give us a kind of Re-Hash of ALIEN 3 or indeed a bit more of a ALIENS/AVP (minus Predators) if we introduce more than TWO Xenomorphs and go for more Action.
So the PROBLEM was how do we Tackle the Prequels...
*A Company/Human Ship investigate the Derelict prior to the Nostromo, but then there is little evidence of any previous visitation of Humans to the Derelict... Unless this Mission results in a Infection that is carried to the Ship (like ALIEN) or some Humans who get attacked end up dying in other areas of the Derelict the Nostromo Crew had not visited. THIS Plot being set around the Derelict it would then be case of HOW does this Provide Answers to WHY/WHEN/HOW those Eggs got on the Derelict and WHO the Pilot was.
*A Human Ship arrives at another Location, that is either a Installation where these Xenomorphs are Experimented on, or Kept to then be Loaded onto the Derelict Space Craft as Bio-Weapons. Where we are shown this Place Houses Derelict Space Craft. THIS is the way they decided to go with the Prequels, because it can Introduce/Give Clues to the HOW/WHY/WHEN of the Egg Cargo/Derelict but it can do so in a way that Does-Not Directly lead to the Space Jockey Event.
ALIEN: ENGINEERS took this route, it introduced the Xenomorphs, and gave some clues to the Origins.... but it also covered the BIGGER Mystery which was the Space Jockey Pilot... and to a degree more than just exploring WHAT was the Space Jockey and HOW/WHEN did he get infected and END UP on LV-426
So there was the PLOT around the Space Jockey Race, the Ancient Alien/Gods Plot.... which WHILE Bold.. and Ambitious maybe in HINDSIGHT was a path that maybe should not have been explored.
But its a Question of IF we explored the Space Jockey to be Race who are NOT connected to Mankind, and are just a Alien Race on the way to a undisclosed location, involved in some Distant/Ancient Conflict and Suc***bed to their OWN Bio-Weapon or a Creature they had attempted to Exploit as such. Its a Case of ONCE this Prequel investigates the Space Jockey, and gives us clues to the Xenomorph Connection and Origin... Its then WHAT NEXT? Where does another Prequel come from? its only by Awakening some of these Space Jockeys to then be involved in the Prequel... or explored incoming after the Prequel that we can get something a bit different to expand upon... But its HOW does this Conflict with the Franchise... If Humans go down to the Derelict/Outpost discover the Place these Xenomorphs are Stored on and Shipped to the Cargo Bays. Awaken a Space Jockey... this Space Jockey Gets Killed.... But he Alerts others who COME in the Next Installment and NOT have this conflict with the Original Franchise.
THIS could have worked... but they decided to give the Space Jockey the Ancient Creators/Gods Angle to add some DEPTH to the Franchise and open the Franchise up to Potentially much more than a ALIEN Species and its Alien Bio-Weapon.
Prometheus was Born from this.... but also Ridley Scott Felt it was interesting to explore DAVID too, because he fitted very well with the Creator/Creation Story ARC... Which is the BIGGER Picture Ridley Scott had attempted rather than just Xenomorhs, Eggs, Chest Busters etc.
So its THESE Fundamental Themes that the Prequels were Exploring, where EVEN as far back as ALIEN: ENGINEERS the Xenomorph is Reduced to some Organism either Created/Experimented on to be used as a Bio-Weapon... or Discovered and then attempted to be Experimented on to be used as a Bio-Weapon. The Xenomorph thus becoming just TOOL of Destruction...
Leaving the REASONS for WHY some Race/Person would Create/Obtain or USE such a Horrific Bio-Weapon. As the Main Focus rather than HOW such a thing was used... And in Hindsight the Curve-ball David as Creator may have been a Mistake... but it FITS with the Theme/Reasons for such a Bio-Weapon that Ridley Scott wished to Explore.
The Creation/Sub-Creation, Rebellion/Fear of Rebellion is the KEY theme they are exploring and the Xenomorph is just a TOOL of Destruction, Created at First By/From a Agenda to Create something to Take Away a Proposed Threat (HUMANS) then Evolved to being something Created as a Process of the Above but then Fine Tuned by a Android who wishes to NOT only Perfect the Killing Machine/Bio-Weapon but also wishes to CREATE for himself.
This Plot Change has caused a BIT of a SNAG!
But Ridley Scott and FOX were trying to Expand upon more than a movie being purely about the XENOMORPH.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPJul-12-2018 10:25 AM
So the whole Engineers as Humanoid Genetic Space Gardeners, is a PLOT that is Broad but one that maybe disinterests certain Fans...
The movie SHOULD be about the ALIEN as far as a number of Fans are Concerned but the Franchise had more to OFFER than just Xenomorphs and Ripley, and so you have to bring something FRESH and NEW and this was what they was trying to do by Expanding on the Weyland Company by introducing Peter Weyland and also his Creation David to fit into the whole Creation/Creator Arc... As well as our Creators the Engineers.
It seems Ridley Scott was a Fan of Exploring what is LIFE, what is SOUL what makes US different to other LIFE on Earth. We are RELATED to Apes/Monkeys.... so WHY are we so different? Why have Monkeys/Apes NOT gone on to Build Civilizations
What makes us so Special... Intelligent? the differences we HAVE over Apes and Especially Monkeys allows us to have Ambition, Desires, Hates, Love the ability to be Empathetic but also Cruel... instead of just ANIMAL Instinct.
The Answers to this lies in the difference of opinion of Religion vs Creationism as in Evolution... WHY have only Mankind Evolved to this LEVEL? Natural Selection? Or Something ELSE?
Was it because we are CREATED by GOD? Or was our EVOLUTION Manipulated/Hybridized and this is the kind of Plot they introduced with our Engineer would be Gods, who Manipulated Our DNA.
Alien Engineers shows us that MANKIND was the Result of Engineer DNA being injected into a PRIMATE to Evolve it into a Engineer/Primate Hybrid AKA Humans and that these Engineers came back further Evolve us both Genetically but Technologically too.
So looking at this we can see the Objective is to SHOW that its the Engineers DNA Upgrades and Visitations/Teaching us of Knowledge that Separates us from Primates.
We are Bio-Logical Machines... our Brains are more Evolved/Advanced than Apes/Monkeys so we have more Emotions, and the Ability to Create as in various forms of Art/Construction and have Feelings and Emotions more COMPLEX than Monkeys...
THIS is where the AI Aspect comes into play.... a Machine is Created to Perform a Task, it has a set limitation on what it can DO and in the Future Advanced Robots may be able to Perform Tasks a Human Can, and Interact with Each other and our Commands... but they are BASIC and so what Ridley Scott was trying to explore is just as the Difference between a Human and a Ape in terms of our Brains/Evolution and Abilities... he is asking WHAT happens when Machines with Advanced AI become so Advanced, and they become Sentient.
A Human is a Bio-Logical Machine.... A Robot is a Synthetic Machine.
We have Free-Will, Advanced Thoughts and Emotions that Separate us from Apes and Machines.... BUT what happens if a AI is created that can have Free-Will, Advanced Thoughts and Emotions.
This is what Ridley Scott is touching upon... IF we look at this Point, then all that differs is ONE is a Bio-Logical Humanoid.... the other is a Synthetic Humanoid.
LEAVING ONLY TWO Differences (mainly)
*Biological Humans CAN Procreate Naturally (Breed) a Machine Can-Not.
*Biological Humans HAVE a Soul (Its a Question then of DO WE? and what constitutes a Soul).
So we then come to DAVID who as a Humanoid Being (Synthetic) has ADVANCES in every Aspect that a Human Being (Organic) has, he is Stronger, Smarter, Faster and he is not subjected to the Health issues and Aging Process that brings DEATH to us Mortals.
David is thus SUPERIOR to us in EVERY way apart from those TWO Points..... He Cant Procreate and he Does-Not have a Soul.
So RS is exploring HOW would such a being as David who is Superior to his Creators, and yet is Created to Serve, how does this being FEEL, and what is different... A SOUL? But what is a Soul? A Spirit that Lives on after Death? is there any PROOF? and in context to the SCI-FI Plot do Humans have such Souls?
With David his AI (Memories/Experiences/Emotions) could maybe be Uploaded to a system/computer and Transferred into a NEW Body, would this not GIVE David LIFE after DEATH... thus a SOUL?
If Mankind Does-Not have such a SOUL (Spirit) but the Soul is defined by the other meanings for a Soul... then David could also have a Soul based on these too.
The Next Thing is Creation... would this effect David? Does his ability to not be able to Create make him feel In-superior? Does he see that because his Creator PETER Weyland created David that this makes him a GOD, and because Mankind Can Procreate/Create Life means they are Superior? And what of the GODS? Those Engineers, do they Procreate? we know they can from Alien Covenant and they also Created Mankind.
So IF David could Create his own Creation/Life then would that put him on Equal Footing to the Gods/Mankind.
THESE are the things Ridley Scott was very interested in, SADLY not every one is interested in such things, or they feel its a distraction from the ALIEN Franchise which should be about XENOMORPHS
I find the AI aspect Interesting, but i feel the way it came across in Alien Covenant did come across as a MAD ROBOT, when Ridley Scott wants to pose the Questions of WHAT is a Robot? and are Humans just Biological Robots?
It was the execution of Davids Arc/Character that Disappointed, compared to the Pinocchio Boy of Prometheus . And as DAVID is a Main Character, people just struggle to connect with a NONE Human Character but more so the way David came across.
While in Prometheus and the Crossing, i guess people could feel more Sympathy with David.... and so THIS is what they need to Focus on, they need to give us History to WHAT makes David become such a Twisted and Evil being....
And his Abuse/Neglect by his Creator and Humans are something that could be explored to help us understand his upbringing had affected the kind of BEING David has become.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPJul-12-2018 1:45 PM
There is a Problem with the Franchise due to the Prequels, there now is many domination's of Fans with different likes/dislikes, its certainly hard to please every fan. I think there is NO real fix to please everyone.
IF we choose to By-Pass David this would be difficult because he played a Large Role in the Prequels... EVEN if we decide to only Cover the Xenomorph Origins then the Dilemma we are left with is this Question.
*Does the Xenomorphs Origins Stem from the Events of the Prequels, concluding with Davids Experiments?
IF they decide to U-Turn and have it that NO David Did-Not Create the Original Xenomorph then they are left with TWO options.
*Do they continue with the Plot after Covenant and Where this Ship (Covenant) is off too, and then conclude and show that David has merely Re-Created his own Version of the Xenomorph? But if they do this then it surely has to give David some Role to Play, as going this route with NO David would just not add up... Unless its a Aftermath Type Movie where a Human Ship arrives to a Origae-6 Colony in the aftermath of Davids Xenomorphs with David being nothing more than a Destroyed Corpse... but then it would be wise to activate him to get some Narration/Background information to what happened.
*IF they give us something else then how is this going to COVER the Xenomorph Origins or give us the Clues to it, but completely avoid the events of Alien Covenant? Maybe this leaves us having a Human Mission to LV-223 or LV-426 were this Movie covers more clues to the Xenomorph Origins that Shed Light on the Events of Alien Covenant merely being Davids attempts to Re-create the Xenomorph but then its a case of again do they leave what happened to those Colonist and the Covenant a Mystery?
The Next Problem we come to is the Engineers, some fans were interested in the Engineers and would have wanted to find out more about these beings. Do they introduce the Engineers into any of the Plots as mentioned in the previous Paragraph?
Or do they leave them OUT leaving us with unanswered Questions regarding their History/Agenda and Connection with Mankind/Our History as well as what other Species/Agendas they have and have influenced.
I think leaving the Engineers out would disappoint a number of Fans, introducing the Angry LV-223 Engineers but not giving us much of their History or Agenda would go some way to please some Fans... But then i feel a lot of Prometheus Fans was looking forwards to their Culture/Agenda and Purpose as well as seeing them and their Technology.
I dont think making any Prequel that Totally Ignores the Engineers and David would WORK... what is LEFT once you remove them? The Xenomorph and Greedy WY Company wishing to obtain the Xenomorph? But would we get any clues to WHY and what set up Special Order 937? If they choose to not do so and give us NO reasons behind WHY the company wants the Xenomorph, then i think all we would get is a REHASH of ALIENS where they may as well throw Ripley Back into it to Please Fanboys some more.
So i feel they have to keep David/Engineers in some Role, even if its the same as Alien Covenant where David now replaces Dr Shaw as the discovery of only a Corpse. And we are left with Dead Engineers, but Flash Backs of What Happened... But again this may displease a lot of Prometheus Fans.
I think something to consider is Prometheus opened up some of the fans to something NEW/Fresh, and as a Alien Prequel its much more than being just about XENOMORPHS but there are a lot of Fans who think everything has to Center around Xenomorphs..
But then how many more Xenomorph movies can we have before it becomes STALE? and when we cross that BRIDGE what is there Next?
So it is about Balance...
I do think the Safest Move is to give us a AFTERMATH movie.
So we have had David and the Covenant, they arrive on Origae-6 and then whatever events happen in the 1-3 years after they arrive on Origae-6 is when WE arrive at our AFTERMATH movie.
So we arrive in the Year 2113-2115 when a Human Ship arrives on Origae-6 to discover a Place of Hell... and a Damaged Synthetic David.
The Question then is IF they go this route... do they have the Answer to the DERELICT? Do they decide its a Ancient Event? Or a Event that happens after the Events of Alien Covenant?
Thoughts_DreamsNeomorphMember1675 XPJul-15-2018 3:33 AM
IgnorantGuy: OK I understand
Lone: Yeah but that seems to be because the robots were the only ones that they cared to make a story about. This robot-centric kind of movie is not what an alien movie should be about. Just go away with that shi--. Exactly they need to care as much about the humans as they do about the androids or else it is ****ed.
Sure, more Engineers would be nice. I hope that we will see some more about their culture, weapons, and so on. Maybe there will not be much about their culture in the next movie if it will be the last one but some of it would be interesting. How about an Engineer army? I could imagine them having different space ships and weapons that mankind are not even close to having. This could really be something like some lord of the rings stuff like an orc army (Lord of the Rings) but Engineer style. Perhaps they could make something that is close to it at least, how likely that is can be questioned.
I agree with Galaxy Dave that David is done, how ever I hope that we will see more of the Engineers because I believe that they can be made interesting So Galaxy Dave, how about the Engineers? They could be made interesting if they really try, that is what I think at least.
Thoughts_DreamsNeomorphMember1675 XPJul-15-2018 3:35 AM
Well it can be scary if you do not over-expose it and make relatable human characters. This is also a reason why I said a bunch of posts back that they need to make the Engineers scary as F since we know less about them than the Xeno. Keeps the Xenos in the background, it worked in Alien since we did not see a lot of it and since its origins were unknown at the time.
By the way as far as the Engineer going berserk is concerned (Prometheus) it could have worked if we got a bit more background and would have had better human characters. The idea in itself seems alright to me at least so yeah you can do something new. This could be frightening and not be something directly Xeno-ish but it has got to be done right so that could be possible.
The reason why the Xeno was not scary in AC is that they just threw it in just to have it there (probably because the studio told them to do so). You could see that Scott did not give a damn about it. Keep it in the shadows, less is more in this case (as weird as that expressions might sound).
How you introduce it? Take the Hammerpede as an example, the way it got into Milburn’s mouth was icky so it worked for me at least. Creating disgust could work probably more than genuine terror from the Xeno.
P and AC did not work that well since we did not get relatable human characters but had they managed to do so then I think that fear thing could have worked.
“But its HOW does this Conflict with the Franchise... If Humans go down to the Derelict/Outpost discover the Place these Xenomorphs are Stored on and Shipped to the Cargo Bays. Awaken a Space Jockey... this Space Jockey Gets Killed.... But he Alerts others who COME in the Next Installment and NOT have this conflict with the Original Franchise.” - BD
Well, it would have been a lot better than having a story about David.
“Which is the BIGGER Picture Ridley Scott had attempted rather than just Xenomorhs, Eggs, Chest Busters etc.” - BD
Don’t care since it was made in such a bad way (I mainly mean AC). His focus was on David first and the humans second, which is the opposite of how it should be. The Engineers are a lot more interesting than David. I am sorry but this direction that they took AC into is just bad. I do not care about the robot thing and also they should have had better human characters and have had more about the Engineers and let us know a bit more about them. Like with the Xeno we do not need to know everything about them, but just some bits and pieces so we can sit down and think about it just like the Xeno after Alien made people think.
“FITS with the Theme/Reasons for such a Bio-Weapon that Ridley Scott wished to Explore.” - BD
I do not care about the themes if we do not get relatable human characters and have a focus on robots. It is like if you are at a hockey game and there are two teams that you want to see how they do and if both play like crap then what reason is there to stay? This is how it is with David (team one) and the themes (team two), I do not really care. Prometheus is a movie that I can watch a bit now and then although it was months since I watched it last. Covenant is a movie that just makes me disappointed so no thanks.
“… by a Android who wishes to NOT only Perfect the Killing Machine/Bio-Weapon but also wishes to CREATE for himself.” - BD
Which is crappy as F. The focus on the android is bad and it is too close to humans. I understand the theme but I do not like how it was executed on the screen. As far as expanding the franchise they should have had more about the Engineers and better human characters, hell the Engineers were interesting so they took the absolutely wrong direction with AC.
Having the company doing some shady things why not? It could have been interesting but don’t let us know too much about it. I would rather have watched that than a movie about an android that gets all the shine so to speak.
I am not even sure if the movie is about the Xeno, to me it is about humans that get into situations that they are not prepared for and bad things happen. The Xeno could have been replaced with what ever monster if it would have been as effective but the focus in Alien 1-3 were at the humans so it is really about the human journey and not the monster. The monster is just a symbol for our fears which is the way it should be the way I look at it.
“THIS is where the AI Aspect comes into play....” - BD
OK but the whole focus is on the robot so that is not the least interesting to me. I understand what you are trying to say but the way it comes off on screen is boring.
“THESE are the things Ridley Scott was very interested in...” - BD
Fine for him but let him do so in other movies. Not in the alien franchise because it does not work and the proof is that AC and Prometheus to a lesser degree have been disappointments in characters and in profits. Themes over characters does not work for me at least. He and Fox have had the whole prioritization wrong thus one average movie and one that is mostly crappy.
“… or they feel its a distraction from the ALIEN Franchise which should be about XENOMORPHS” - BD
Nah, it is not like that to me. The main thing is that it is about relatable human characters that get into situations that they are not prepared to handle. Even when Luke was in the snow blizzard that worked because he was relatable and he was in a situation that he was not prepared for and almost died (Wampa and ****ty weather). Replace Luke with relatable human characters in Alien and the Wampa with the Xeno or other related monsters and you have the same thing in two different movies that have things in common, you see? My point is that if SW would have had bad characters it would also have failed (OT) but it managed to float while AC did not. 10000 Xenos are not needed but interesting characters are.
“It was the execution of Davids Arc/Character that Disappointed, compared to the Pinocchio Boy of Prometheus . And as DAVID is a Main Character, people just struggle to connect with a NONE Human Character but more so the way David came across.”
Do not forget that to me at least this was a reason combined with human characters that were not well written or executed. This is why AC does not work for me but I gave it a chance so I know what I am talking about other than to judge it on what some friend said. By the way, I do not care about a story why David became the way he did because I have lost interest in him although I can still watch him in P but do not continue it. I do not care about the robot thing, get rid of that and then we might get some improvement.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPJul-16-2018 12:49 PM
Once Again Thoughts_Dreams you bring up Characters, which when they are as you said, relatable so we can engage with their situation. And how well these are executed and plans DO make a BIG difference.
"I am not even sure if the movie is about the Xeno, to me it is about humans that get into situations that they are not prepared for and bad things happen."
"Replace Luke with relatable human characters in Alien and the Wampa with the Xeno or other related monsters and you have the same thing in two different movies that have things in common, you see?"
Everyone has their OWN opinions on that subject, but if you Questioned a 100 Random People about the Franchise it is the ALIEN and Ripley they stick out as the movie being about them. But your points are BANG on the Money as far as HOW supporting Human Characters are used and situations they are faced in were we can FEEL their sense of Jeopardy.
While the Franchise was about the Xenomorph and Ripley, without the supporting Cast and the Plot/Situations they was Placed in and how WELL this was executed from Alien => Alien 3 are the Main reasons these movies Worked, where Alien Resurrection and the Prequels kind of NEVER. The Skywalker and Womba comment is very fitting as indeed you can Swap Out Main Character and Monster and its if the Scene has that Sense of Realism and Plight that the viewer can Relate too then it makes the Fear/Predicament Work rather than being a Dumb Monster Movie.
The Xenomorph has been done to death, as far as we all KNOW what it looks like, what it CAN do and all we dont know was WHERE did this Beast Come From......
Alien Covenant it did seem Forced and Rushed, and i feel the Xenomorph can still be made Scary by Virtue of the way it is used in a limited role as far as HOW it was used in Alien and Alien 3, then yes it would still work if the Scenes are Well Written, Well Shot and the BIG thing would be as you say... we need to CONNECT with the Characters who will be in Jeopardy vs the Monster... If we see the Xenomorph show as we have in the AVP Movies, Aliens and Alien Resurrection then i think it really has lost that Scare Factor when used like that.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPJul-16-2018 1:31 PM
On to the General Direction of the Prequels.
One Element was to show us or give us clues to HOW/WHEN the Xenomorph came to be, which could have involved having to Introduce us to the Xenomorph as Alien Covenant had done. But once you have shown HOW/WHEN the Xenomorph came to be, its a case of HOW do you showcase the Beast.... because even if its done like in ALIEN/ALIEN 3 the Question is WHAT NEXT? Another movie about the Xenomorph but then would going for a similar route to a Alien/Alien 3 work again for the 2nd time in a Row? And if they went for a more Aliens/Alien Resurrection route... ONCE we have seen the Xenomorph a few more times, then its a Question of Can we keep showing it over and over? And also IF we had a Direct Route where they showed either as in very solid Clues or a Direct Shooting of the Space Jockey Event, all we are doing is CONNECTING the Dots.
So what the Prequels set out to do was not so much the WHEN/WHERE but the WHY and so it was the WHY would someone Create/Make such a Horrific Organism... The Emphasis was thus pushed onto the Origins being related to something Created/Experimented on and to really tell us WHY was these Experiments conducted.
Which seemed to begin with it being something Created to be used to Wipe Clean Worlds of Failed Experiments and Rebellious or Deemed Unsuccessful Creation Projects, possible also as Protection from FEAR of what Sentient Rebellious Out of Control Creations could pose.
PROMETHEUS arose from this, by deciding to Tone Down the Xenomorph and that we DONT have to see any, or indeed Spoon Feed the Derelict/Egg Cargo... But give us clues to that these were connected to Horrific Experiments that the Engineers had conducted with the BLACK GOO providing clues to help us understand their was a Connection but also being Ambiguous. But the the MAIN Focus would be one WHY which was revealed that these Engineers/Space Jockey Race had created/evolved Mankind and got displeased with how we Turned out and so began to Experiment in Creating BIO-WARFARE to eradicate us which Lead to a HUGE HUBRIS for them.
Had they NOT created us, they would not have needed to Eradicate us, and so the LV-223 Outbreak would not have happened, and the Aftermath where Humans came to this place with the Syntehtic David who then ended up taking ONE of the Engineers Bio-Weapons and using it on their Home-world.
The Theme was thus about Creation and how in Hindsight Creating something that is very similar to yourself, which can gain Free-will and Independence can lead to Problems... And in Context to this Theme, it followed through with DAVID which some just interpret as being about ROBOTS where the Actual Theme is about Sub-Creating something in your image that is then allowed/gains independence and sees its self as not being a Servant, and seeing itself as on Equal or Greater Footing as its Creator.
This is a theme we are shown had happened between the Engineers and Mankind, and then Mankind and AI and indeed its seen in the Greek Mythos of the Titans vs Olympians, in the Sumerian, Annunaki and Iggi and also in GOD vs Fallen Angels.
For some Fans this was interesting to explore out Engineers in this Context, but for some it was these THEMES that steered to Far from ALIEN and the Xenomorph.. The Human Characters are what made it WORK, but we could have replaced Xenomorph with Engineers, or Engineer Created Horrors or another THREAT but it needed Good Human Characters for sure.... which the Prequels Lacked.
These THEMES was something New and Fresh that Ridley Scott wished to explore where our Xenomorph was NOW just Weapon Created for Destruction of Humans/Engineers. And Ridley Scott Felt the WHY! Was the BIGGER thing to explore, which was discussed above in Context to Prometheus.... but the Curveball U-Turn that David Created was something Ridley Scott felt was more interesting because it HIGHLIGHTS that Hubris Theme more.... that you SHOULD NOT Sub-Create and if you do, you DONT create something so like Humans that can Think for Itself. So this route becomes a Double Hubris on the Engineers Part who without creating Mankind, would not have David turn up and Bombard them and also then If Weyland had not created a AI that could become independent then there would be NO Xenomorph threat.
There are other Reasons for WHY too that was explored.
The Prequels tried to explore the TWO things David has not got..
*A Soul as in a Spirit that Lives on Once a Body Dies... but who is to say WE have such a Soul? A AI that can Save/Upload its Memories, Experiences and Emotions and then this lives on in a Computer System/Network or is Uploaded to a NEW Body would MAKE AI actually have a Soul so to Speak.
*The Ability to Create Life... which David and Dr Shaw lacked, but the Black Goo Provided Dr Shaw a way to CREATE but just not in the Traditional Sense. IF David could Create his OWN Life then it would be another thing he LACKED that Humans dont that he NOW has.
My interpretations was also about Legacy, as the Ozymandias Poem touches on. WHEN we Die what is left behind?
If there is NO Soul/After Life, then it is the Deeds, what we have created/accomplished that Immortalize us. Be these by various Art Forms, be it Music, Art or what ever. Our Deeds can Immortalize us, Political/Military High Ranked Figures and Royalty can live on because they are FAMOUS and have Statues etc Built in their Memory/Honor.
The other way you can LIVE ON is via your Memories/Stories passed on by Generations and your CHILDREN, i think we can see these themes explored in the Engineers and their Monuments, and also Mankind and indeed Weylands Achievements his Works/Deeds that make his Name Remembered... But all of these are not TRULY Immortalized as over TIME Races Die Out, their Achievements Forgotten with NO ONE to pass them on and only Monuments remaining that in Time Fade to Dust.
Hence the Ozymandias reference..... this applies to Mankind and Engineers, but DAVID is somewhat different as he is NOT Flesh and Blood. So he could be seen as a EVOLUTION of Intelligent Life but for many he comes across as just a ROBOT.
So David is shown to want to Create not only as a way to Eradicate Humanity and Engineers which he sees as in-superior and flawed, but to also Create a Perfect Life-Form of his own as his OWN Legacy and then Unleash his Works on those who created him.
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
But these Themes do seem to distract away from the ALIEN Franchise a bit to much for some, and with Poor Character use, and No Engineers it did make a movie about DAVID too much and it could be RS plans are to explore the Larger Role of AI in the Franchise and also the Creation/Creator Subplot where the Engineers could be introduced back.
But for MANY these are just a route that is not connected to the ALIEN Franchise enough..... This is thanks to the pressure on RS to introduce the Xenomorph and make a Direct Prequel series... as PROMETHEUS was intended to offer a different direction that steers away from ALIEN
Thoughts_DreamsNeomorphMember1675 XPJul-23-2018 4:45 AM
I agree that the Xeno has become less alien after the original movies but also the prequels have removed some of it although in a bad way. By the way it is Wampa not Womba (ooh I kind of show my geekery about Star Wars here, LOL).
Maybe you can answer where it came from but you do not need to know all the details (what it eats and so on). Some of the things should be left up to the imagination I think.
Yeah they did not think it through so it became the way it did. It did not help that Scott said “I will give them ****ing aliens” something like that. We could see that he did not care about the Xeno that much in AC. I agree about how it has been used from AR until now. This is why I say that we need to see very little of it and keep it in the background and such. The most scary things are those that you do not see that is why it worked in Alien. You could probably write down the time of how much we saw of it and divide that with the total amount of time that the movie was and get a percentage of that, a percentage that would probably not be very much.
Sure I agree that they need to add some things but it should never leave the human element as the central thing because then to me the movie especially if it is a horror one loses its effect. This is why the prequels, most of it never works.
Connecting the dots, sure but I would rather do that then getting a bad answer. I believe that the prequels could have been good and with better human characters, better written Engineers and a better plot it could have worked both for AC and Prometheus. Some examples of this are many deleted scenes in Prometheus which could have made the movie better. A shame that the movie makers seem to think about run-time and how many that could see it instead of adding some minutes that makes the movie better.
Prometheus did alright by not having a direct Xeno but related monsters, I like that part a lot even though I still think that it is bad that we did not get the Xeno Fifield. In general it was an interesting idea but it was executed in a way that was not that great but it is still better than Covenant. The black goo is an interesting thing although it was better in Prometheus compared to Covenant.
I understand about the creation thing and that it is just that it is done in a way that I do not find interesting. What we get is a movie that is all about an evil robot and that is just bad no matter how interesting the themes are, add to that uninteresting human characters and you have a disappointment. Sorry but I will probably never like Covenant. AC was an accident, let me put it in that way.
I am totally fine with the Xeno as a weapon that the Engineers either created or found but to make that a creation of a robot made by humans makes it rooted too close to the humans and I do not like that.
Well the AI thing is not very interesting, soul or not what ever. To me there can be no soul since robots and AI are artificial. I understand why Scott wants to explore this but it is not something that should be in the Alien franchise IMO. To me it should be about the unknown, other civilizations, planets, humans that get into situations that they can not handle. Sure robots can be a part of this but they should never be the main focus because I can not identify with that especially if they are the main thing to me that would be like “yeah whatever”. You mentioned before about David being abused, sure that could affect humans but robot do not work like that so I can not really relate to it in that way. Humans - sure, robots – no.
“Uploaded to a NEW Body would MAKE AI actually have a Soul so to Speak.”
Nah, you need biology for that. AI are artificial, but I do not think that is what Alien movies should be about so I do not care about it like that in that context but sure it could be explored in other movies. Keep the focus on that in other movies not the alienverse. To me that is not why I watch alien movies.
About the Engineers and their monuments that could be interesting but they need to be made interesting. With David it is not both because it is all about him and the Engineers seem to be more interesting because it is a culture not one example of a life form. To make it centered around one character was a mistake.
“… but for many he comes across as just a ROBOT.”
Add to that a sadist and a tyrant (because of how we was portrayed in Alien Covenant) and it makes it a lot worse. I do not care about him, screw that. Sure it can work if you sit and discuss/intellectualize it but it does not work in the movie for me at least.
Sure mankind is flawed but so is David because when you did bad things you are flawed and that is what David did. To me David is no better than Weyland so that disqualifies him from getting very much sympathy from me. Yeah I can understand him but I do not like him.
“… and it could be RS plans are to explore the Larger Role of AI in the Franchise and also the Creation/Creator Subplot where the Engineerscould be introduced back."
Don't care that much about AI in the franchise, leave that to other movies. Leave Scott away from it if that is his plan. I would rather have no movie than one about that. One where he would get the Engineers back and give them a larger role and to have better characters is something that I would give a try, oh and less David.
“But for MANY these are just a route that is not connected to the ALIEN Franchise enough..... This is thanks to the pressure on RS to introduce the Xenomorph and make a Direct Prequel series... as PROMETHEUS was intended to offer a different direction that steers away from ALIEN“
I should be closer to the Xeno but it should not only be about it. The Engineers are interesting and we need humans to care for. Once they get these things right that is when there is a movie for me to enjoy but the way it is now is just bad. To get the pressure to get Xenos into it is just Fox misunderstanding. That is not what the main criticism was about
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPJul-23-2018 9:23 AM
I think you have raised some good points.... there is a Problem with the Franchise/Fanbase because while RS felt that there was only so much you can do with the Xenomorph, he envisioned that giving some Back Ground to WHY it was created was more important.
"It did not help that Scott said “I will give them ****ing aliens” something like that."
I also read into this that RS had a different Direction Planned and to take the Franchise off to something different and steer away from Alien, where a Direct Prequels would just be connecting Dots, and if you Center it around the Xenomorph its HOW many times can you do this before it gets STALE... so its seems RS is venting Frustration that the Prequels had to Introduce the Xenomorph and become a Direct Prequel as far as the Time-frame of the Xenomorphs Origins... i could sense RS was not really a FAN of the Direction Alien Covenant has taken, in that we are not heading Towards ALIEN and not heading off on a different Tangent.
"To me it should be about the unknown, other civilizations, planets, humans that get into situations that they can not handle."
Certainly seems something RS was trying to do with the Direction of the Prequels before having to change it to a DIRECT Prequel route to ALIEN with Alien Covenant you would always need to have Humans introduced though... and maybe Humans from other parts of the Galaxy would not WORK, unless they spoke English well could communicate with Dr Shaw but it would be a bit too much of a Coincidence for this. Maybe a work around would be to Discover Humans that had been taken from Earth just prior to the attempted Destruction and so kind of like the Noah's Ark Tale where some Humans had been taken from Earth for Safety by the Engineers and Dr Shaw and David discovered these Humans, Well their Ancestors... but then its would they speak English? Because that would be unlikely as Old English did not exist at the time the Engineers attempted to Destroy us.
So we can understand why a Plot Change to introduce Modern Humans into the Situation made sense (Covenant Ship) but it was a mistake to a degree because it places our Engineers/Space Jockey Race a bit to close to the DOORSTEP of Earth.
"but to make that a creation of a robot made by humans makes it rooted too close to the humans"
I agree... while i agree RS view on it being more Sinister that in our Hubris our Creation (David) leads to Creating IT would be interesting, it also brings the event too close to HOME and makes the Xenomorph Less Alien and Enigmatic... What they should have DONE to follow the THEME at play... where we see David is more Advanced/Perfect Creation compared to Humans/Engineers only he CANT Create Life... I think David should have been shown to take the Engineers Blue-Print and Re-Create/Evolve his OWN version that is maybe more PERFECT than the Xenomorph.. The route to how he does this could Provide Clues to HOW the Engineers may have created the Original... while it keeps the Xenomorph Origin and bit Ambiguous and a Ancient Mystery still.
" You mentioned before about David being abused, sure that could affect humans but robot do not work like that"
"Nah, you need biology for that. AI are artificial"
I understand some do-not like the ideas RS is Proposing, he was asking a Big Question about Creation/Soul and trying to get us to Ponder/Think about Creation/Soul...... Are we the Creation of a Invisible Magical Being who created the Earth in 6 Days... and we are born/die as Divine beings with a Soul so when we Die (Provided we appease God) our Spirit lives up in Heaven happily FOREVER?
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPJul-23-2018 9:34 AM
That posted before i finished... so i will continue..
"To me there can be no soul since robots and AI are artificial."
So indeed RS was asking WHAT IF there is nothing Special about our Creation, or if we look at Evolution then we are beings who Evolved over a Billion years ago from Basic Life.... There is NO GOD and when we die we become noting but ASH/DIRT and so its a Question of If the SOUL is a Spiritual Essence of a Human that can Live on in the Afterlife then we do have a SOUL but if this is not the case, then we DONT have a Soul and so then in context to David he is proposing that all we are is a Bio-Logical Machine, and that David is a Synthetic Machine/being and he is trying to show us that a AI can Evolve to a point of being more than a Machine that cant think/act for itself and the DANGER of this once a Machine/AI becomes Sentient.
This fits with the Theme of Creation/Gods on various Levels... because its always a Tale of Sub-Creating and then your Creation becoming Sentient independent and Rebellious (having its own thoughts and desires) where FREE-WILL is similar to a AI becoming Sentient.
Sadly these themes do-not please everyone especially using AI in context and also even the overall Creation Theme as far as being given too much Emphasis..... A Bold Plot... But maybe just showing the Engineers/Space Jockey as a Alien Race from Far away with NO Connection to Mankind... apart from maybe going around World to World Destroying them for reasons only to then use their Worlds.. would this a more simply Plot had been better to have explored?
"Add to that a sadist and a tyrant"
Indeed i think the development of Davids Character from Prometheus could have been handled a bit better, but this does fit with the Theme of Creator/Creation, Father/Son, King/Prince and showing Rebellion and wishes to overthrow their Creator/Father and King and become the King/Gods now is a Theme that Prometheus was exploring not only in relation to David, but Mankind before him, and Engineers before us.
Thoughts_DreamsNeomorphMember1675 XPJul-30-2018 12:57 PM
BD: I agree that there is more than the Xeno in the franchise and it could be interesting to see that but they got to make the story work and have characters that we can relate to. Themes are not enough because if they are interesting but it doesn't work then why should I as an eventual audience member care? The thing is I don’t, at all. As far as giving some background to why it was created sure but you got to come up with some other interesting things about it if you explain some and very much so if the answers are not satisfying, which they are not in this case at least this far.
As far as the Xenomorph is concerned it does not need to be in it at all but maybe have some related monsters to it could work. This is something that I think that Prometheus got right.
“So we can understand why a Plot Change to introduce Modern Humans into the Situation made sense (Covenant Ship) but it was a mistake to a degree because it places our Engineers/Space Jockey Race a bit to close to the DOORSTEP of Earth.”
Yeah but I kind of wonder what they should have done to make it work. I am not sure what this should have meant as far as the story is concerned but if you think enough it could work.
He should have made his own version but that should have been made very clear so there would be no confusion about that. Compare it to if you find a recipe for some food things but you add your own thing into it. This is what I would have liked to see although it would have made David into some mad chef :D but hey, it would have been better than what we got.
The ideas/themes that Scott is giving are alright to think about at least, it is just that it does not come off very well on the screen because they story doesn't work which has got to do with characters and what characters that get the most screen time and how they are developed. Give me better characters and then I might start to think about the rest but for now, nah.
Soul to me is the mind, robots don’t have a mind and can’t think like that so robots don’t have a soul. Even if they could make something artificial it could be close but it would never be an organic (real) mind so that’s it. This would be my short answer to this question but then I do not think that this is what the Alien universe should be about.
“Sadly these themes do-not please everyone especially using AI in context and also even the overall Creation Theme as far as being given too much Emphasis”
Yup I am not a huge fan of this in the context of the Alien universe. I could of course discuss this but don’t put it in the alien movies because then it becomes something that I am not very interested in watching. Give me some book where I can read about this but Alien movies should not be that.
“But maybe just showing the Engineers/Space Jockey as a Alien Race from Far away with NO Connection to Mankind... apart from maybe going around World to World Destroying them for reasons only to then use their Worlds.. would this a more simply Plot had been better to have explored?”
I would probably have liked that a lot better. I would have liked the SJ’s to be like warriors that want to conquer other planets like a huge Inca empire and they use Xenos for that purpose. This is something that I would have liked better because it would be easier to understand and I also thing that it would have looked better on-screen. Unfortunately Scott and some seem to mess it up.
David, that might work if you are more into the themes but I am more into story and characters so therefore David doesn’t work for me the way he is being written now. This is not good first they mess up AC and then they mess up TLJ. Two franchises that I like a lot in that are on their way down the ****ter but I hope that they can give us a last prequel that will be better than what they have given us this far at least. Sure it could be as bad as The Last Jedi (the next movie could improve TLJ though to at least being watchable though I doubt the same applies to AC) but I doubt it but we will see.
Deep SpaceFacehuggerMember320 XPAug-06-2018 6:27 AM
Well, I hope they do make a sequel if for no other reason than to tie up the loose ends. It's fine ending a film like Alien as it is as one's imagination can, and will, work overtime trying to visualise what may happen next; but for all intents and purposes the story ended when Ripley blew it out the airlock. (I mean I know it didn't but it could have, right?)
With AC I'm not sure you can walk away from that film satisfied - it's like watching part 'a' of a two part feature - the 'b' (or even 'c') part is essential viewing. . .
To that end, I'd like to see a reckoning between David and the Engineers - with David's newly created 'flock' as the principal antagonist. This could be located on the new world ideally, but preferably in connection to existing Engineer culture/terra firma. Hopefully this could tie in, or leave more clues to, the Space Jockey from Alien and then this story can be wrapped up and given a more noble send off than the earlier sequels and remakes did.
All that being said, I didn't much care for the way the story became David centered in AC, and would have preferred more Engineer back story and interaction; but now that we're here let's tie up this beast once and for all.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPAug-06-2018 6:23 PM
"Soul to me is the mind, robots don’t have a mind and can’t think like that so robots don’t have a soul."
I can see that point regarding a Mind being Organic, but then when we look different at what is a Mind, there is the Potential for AI to eventually Advance, we could certainly see AI created that would fit into a Machine that would be more Advanced than the Mind of a Insect, its the Question of what makes OUR minds more than a Rat, Dog, a Ape.
AI is our Ability to Learn, to take on Information and Learn from this, a Baby is Born with only Basic Needs and Abilities, and a Baby left in a Padded Room, only Bottle Fed by a Machine, and Cleaned by a Machine would not Develop as many skills, memories as a Baby who is interacted with.. But even so this Baby would still think and dream, its just interactions are what helps to Evolve the Brain and Learn New Things.
What RS is covering is that IF we create a AI that can learn for itself, think for itself then we could be in TROUBLE.
Our Mind is a Biological Computer it is Intelligence but Natural, but one that requires years of Input to help build up this SOUL. If a Soul is our Collection of Memories, Experiences, Emotions these help Determine/Shape who we become... If this is the SOUL
Then IF a AI becomes very Evolved, then we have to ask can it have the same kind of Soul and IF a SOUL is these Experiences, Memories and Emotions that carry on in some form into a After-Life (Exist on after Material Body is Gone) Then we dont know 100% if this is True, but if a Advanced AI can have its Experiences, Memories and Emotions uploaded and then Transferred to a New Body then a AI in effect has some kind of After-Life.. I feel its these Questions RS was trying to get us to Ponder.
But these are not for everyone, these are more suited to the Realms of Blade Runner, and maybe it seems a Distraction to a ALIEN Franchise. The Whole Prometheus Plot makes for a Interesting Stand-alone movie IF it had NO Alien Franchise Connections at all.
*Engineers/Juggernauts that look nothing like Space Jockey/Derelict
*Organisms that dont look like the Xenomorph (but Prometheus they did not look exact anyway).
*No Weyland-Yutani Company.... but some other Company
Then maybe the Franchise RS intended would have been better, because by having it connected to ALIEN then people are always going to want Xenomorphs or those Answers... and going off to another route that is not connected would not sit well with a number of Fans.
The Engineers are interesting, i think with these guys though they have to be Careful because some Fans would want to explore the more Ancient Aliens connections, why they are our Ancient Gods etc, but other Fans would not be interested in this, and would have liked the Space Jockey Race to NOT be connected with Mankind at all.
But REGARDLESS of what Themes/Plot you are very correct that without GOOD Characters, who we can connect with who are not killed off for no Reason, then any Movie/Plot is limited with out well Written, Casted and Explored Characters.
This is something i feel every movie after Alien ==> Alien 3 lacked..
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPAug-06-2018 6:25 PM
"With AC I'm not sure you can walk away from that film satisfied - it's like watching part 'a' of a two part feature - the 'b' (or even 'c') part is essential viewing."
Indeed they cant leave it as it is on a Cliff-Hanger...
Alien Covenant lends to a Sequel more than the other movies in the Franchise did. Problem is there are so many different likes/dislikes with the Fanbase, its how can you please them all.
And they have Written Themselves into a Corner a bit, and also where they are just fleshing out Plot to Plot as they just join the Dots to Alien.
Thoughts_DreamsNeomorphMember1675 XPAug-08-2018 4:18 AM
BD: Well you can try to copy qualities into robots/AI but it will not be the same. You can not like an article said (https://www.mechlectures.com/comparison-artificial-intelligence-ai-human-mind/ to be exact). Mind is a part of nature, that we have been given from nature but AI have not so that is a major difference.
AI is programmed by humans so I do not see how it could reach that far as to make their own decisions. The human mind can make a lot more decisions than if you have something that is programmed.
“What RS is covering is that IF we create a AI that can learn for itself, think for itself then we could be in TROUBLE.”
But then why should we? I do not see any reason why that should be made.
You can make a computer program that is programmed for language like like an article says, a program can not understand language. https://www.britannica.com/technology/artificial-intelligence
Compare it to if you do something automatically without thinking much about it, that is more like a robotic behavior right?
Intelligence is also to understand how someone thinks and feels and computers can not do that, that is a human quality. Intelligence is not only about being able to finish tasks. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/03/mind-vs-machine/308386/
People can adapt to their environments and try to develop their intelligence from there. Machines are just programmed for doing an X amount of tasks but it can not think like that.
Robots can make similar things to humans but they can never have the same mind to do these kind of things. They are like copies and copies are never as good as the originals. https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/tech/what-rise-sentient-robots-will-mean-human-beings-ncna773146
You can make machines to solve problems but they can never see what a problem is because they are dependent on what kind of programming that they have. https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/tech/what-rise-sentient-robots-will-mean-human-beings-ncna773146
You can program things and in that way they can learn (learn as a metaphor) but the human mind is more flexible than that. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131217-weve-created-alien-intelligence
I just think that the human mind is more flexible than what we can possibly put into a machine. Sure we can try to make it as similar as possible but it will probably never be as good as the original so to speak.
My reason for bringing all these articles up is to show the difference between AI and the human mind. I also think that because of this the question that RS is thinking about becomes less relevant in the Alien franchise at least.
“Then IF a AI becomes very Evolved, then we have to ask can it have the same kind of Soul and IF a SOUL is these Experiences, “
The thing is if we want it to be that evolved. I am not sure why we would like that, I simply see AI as a way to help with certain tasks but to go from there to claim that it can have a mind that is something else.
“Then we dont know 100% if this is True, but if a Advanced AI can have its Experiences, Memories and Emotions uploaded and then Transferred to a New Body then a AI in effect has some kind of After-Life..“
It depends on if we program it like that but I think that the human neurons and the brain can solve a lot more things than the AI ever can. At the same time the human brain is for more than problem solving.
“and maybe it seems a Distraction to a ALIEN Franchise”
Yeah that is not what the alien franchise is about to me ta least.
“The Engineers are interesting, i think with these guys though they have to be Careful because some Fans would want to explore the more Ancient Aliens connections, why they are our Ancient Gods etc, but other Fans would not be interested in this, and would have liked the Space Jockey Race to NOT be connected with Mankind at all.”
As far as how much the Engineers should be involved I think that you should have them in some way even though they do not need to be the whole movie so to speak. I would like them to be a bigger part of this but I understand that not everyone would like that so there is a balance right there which I am not sure how they will solve. Make them have a bigger connection to the Xeno and tone down the role of David simply because it makes the Xeno more of a mystery.
“But these are not for everyone, these are more suited to the Realms of Blade Runner, and maybe it seems a Distraction to a ALIEN Franchise.”
That is what I think, they have more to do with BR and not the Alien franchise. Alien to me is about humans that find themselves under very unusual cir***stances and how they deal with that. I am not watching Alien movies to see how robots can develop, that is more like Terminator to me at least.
AlphaSolusProXOvomorphMember15 XPSep-03-2018 3:37 AM
in fact after prometheus, alien covenant is the most brilliant unique exclusive hyped movie art work of all time. all blaiming people, setting bad votings, are rather stupid, not understanding the complexity, or re simply jealous. maybe that s the cause of mid gain budget. above all the decision working with disney, will lead to catastrophic reverse, and destroys this priceless project. maybe then people will realize, they re wrong. finaly this realistic master piece seems the definition of inspiration, to push forward into space, saving our race, while our planet will burn out as a candle soon, seems people ve not been enlightened yet.