Jun-03-2020 8:46 PM
End David like they did with Shaw- a teaser explained away with viral videos and show up in a quick back story scene in the actual movie. David is a fascinating character, but he has taken over too much of the franchise. Time to die.
Jun-04-2020 1:28 AM
Disney went on this buying spree in the last few years and that has locked them into some rather large investments.
A few months back when Disney set up the purchase of distribution rights by purchasing chucks of bandwidth, they did so at a cost of almost 80 billion dollars….subsequently Disney + was launched and now we see Disney’s play into their own pay as you go to watch entertainment channel.
What is most concerning for fans of the Alien properties purchased under the Fox acquisitions stems from the fact that in the past ten years these were larger budget films that although they made money they were potential huge gambles on solid returns.
Disney is certainly interested in generating solid returns for the foreseeable future with other productions that would translate into larger returns. Super hero films along with the Star Wars Universe and the Theme parks seem to be Disney’s strategy for moving forward towards greater profitability.
So I would like to share with all of you a new strategy. One that I think is rather profound and maybe a way into the future where we as the audience can ensure that our needs are met.
For example let us all take the next and last movie in the “David” Alien franchise sequel we would want to see made.
We know Disney does not want to divert cash to this type of project because for right now their production dollars are being turned into higher grossing revenues by producing other titles.
Let us assume that we present companies like Disney with a different mechanism for getting what we want.
Back in the day Ridley might get on the phone with a script he developed and stated to their financial decision makers what do you say can we get this made. Disney looks at their schedule of everything they are producing and says maybe we will get back to you…weeks later they say we just cannot do it because there are so many other films competing with us in the theater that the film you want to do would actually take money away from a larger production we have slated for release.
With the advent of Disney + we are no longer concerned about movie theaters any more we are concerned with Disney executives understanding that there is a core audience out there that would like to see Alien content delivered at the right price on the pay preview channel weekly….we want shoes and we want new feature films and we willing to pay for it….however there is a catch.
We control the larger contract of the deal since they own the rights to produce under that name and universe. So we set up a smart contract. Millions of Alien fans literally use block chain smart contracts to pay Disney out a sum of money only subscriptions when we see they have invested real time and effort into production of said shows and movies. So here is an example would 25 million Alien fans be willing to spend 25 dollars up front to see Disney make a show and one feature film for us contingent on them getting the 625,000,000 million once we see what they have made…..if we don’t like their investment they dong get our half billion dollars.
So its easy to set up companies where this happens. Then money is deposited and you can always take it out should Disney not deliver said show and movie by a specified date….no more waiting for 5 -7 years for a new Alien feature to be made….when there is that kind of the money on the table things happen very quickly…..we cannot mess with them on cast and all the rest of the other details; however, we can stimulate them into doing what needs to be done to get our content made without it affecting any of their other core businesses.
Should you all want to do something like this we will make a quick LLC and a payment gateway and start the project….this is not about a quick digital vote lets show Disney we mean business with an email…..this is hard cash and lot of it…so much they cannot ignore it no matter what!
It has been a few years since I posted last and I have been busy with some other projects. Have BigDave get in contact with me so we can get some leverage on this quick and get this done.
Jun-04-2020 2:36 AM
Hopefully not, let him die, blow him up or something. The sooner he dies the better.
We do not even know if we will get another movie so to think about that might be too early. Give me more about the engineers and have well written human characters in it, if they have that I will be interested. To make things worse it has been many years since AC and to continue the David story keeping in mind how poorly AC did would be a huge mistake. I would not support it, as a matter of fact I would be annoyed if they continued with that because that would mean that they have not listened, they can not be that dumb or can they?
"- what a world ruled by a robot would look like and the effects it would have on the rest of the Galaxy and other alien species."
If that is the way that they will go with it then good luck with getting enough people watch that crap.
Understand that it is about well made human characters and not about androids, that is what the franchise always has been and why it is interesting. If he wants it to be about robots then make another franchise, seriously. It is kind of amazing how they have messed up these prequels because they could have been interesting but they failed in general even though there are parts of them that I like.
"David is a fascinating character, but he has taken over too much of the franchise. Time to die."
Yup, that shit sucks.
Jun-04-2020 5:17 AM
I think, David is cool. But relax - he never left Origae-6. It was Walter. He inherited David's perfect dream.
Jun-04-2020 6:01 AM
If this forum was around in the early 90's...Would we be discussing if they should bring back Ripley?
Ripley's story(after ALIENS) was basically over...she beat the queen, got her man and found a daughter. the End.
Davids is begging for closure.
Jun-04-2020 2:42 PM
While Ridley Scott feels you can continue the Alien Franchise, and it has more MILES left to it... i do suspect the Next Movie we would see would be in 2026 to celebrate 40 Years of ALIENS with a Aliens Sequel.
I feel maybe Disney could put the Prequels as a Forgotten Memory.
I think the Prequels have seemed to be about David too much for MOST fans liking....
The Problems began with some Fans thinking and expecting that Prometheus would be Connected to ALIEN more than it was and that to connect to ALIEN, you need the ALIEN or at least something that is CLOSE to it. You would also expect that a Prequel would show us WHERE the Xenomorph came from and HOW it got onto the Derelict on LV-426
However another purpose for doing a Prequel of Sorts would be to Explore who the Space Jockey was.
In Hindsight they decided that you actually dont need the Xenomorph as we have seen them Over and Over, and you could be Ambiguous with the Origins so that some Mystery is retained.
So the Connection was not enough for Fans, for others it was clear to see some Connection, but it was left open to Interpretation.
WHAT they decided that meant more was HOW do you expand on the Franchise, they had at this Point Decided the Xenomorph was either a Engineered Bio-Weapon or something that Spawned from a Engineered Bio-Weapon. So their thinking was ONCE you had shown the Xenomorph was Created this way and was Created for this Purpose, its then WHAT do you do Next?
The other Part of the Plot was to explore the Space Jockey Race as a Humanoid Species of wanna be Gods, Creators and that they had played a Part in the Creation and Evolution of Mankind as well as potentially Countless other Worlds.
They felt that this kind of Story was something they could EXPAND on to give us something New/Different rather than Return to Eggs, Face Huggers and Rampaging Monsters. So if these Beasts were Created or intended to be used as Biological Warfare then the BIGGER question is WHY, by WHOM.
This is where Alien Engineers then Evolved into Prometheus by dropping the Need for the Xenomorph and Spoon Fed Origins... they wanted to SET-UP a Potential Spin Off Franchise about the Space Jockey Creators and their Agenda, showing us that at some point these GUYS had been playing about and Experimenting with something that can get out of HAND and lead to Monstrous Results... which the Deacon showed us at the END.... and do enough to get us to then Assume that messing about with all that Black Goo and Stuff in the Past had LIKELY led to those Eggs on LV-426 but it was kept Ambiguous to retain Mystery.
A Sequel would have gone to STEER AWAY from the Xenomorph in ALIEN and LIKELY to expand more on the Creation Themes, Rebellion Themes, the COST of Free-will, the Pursuit of Perfection and Immortality.
It was HIGHLY LIKELY we would have seen more of the Engineers, and Dr Shaw and i think at some-point then YES we could see some HORRORS that are related to the Black Goo but they would NOT lead to ALIEN or be close to the Xenomorph.
HOWEVER........ Powers that be had Determined that actually you are better off to BRING the Xenomorph back and to go on a Journey to show us HOW/WHEN/WHERE and WHY and WHO created the Xenomorph that Eventually Ended up on LV-426
Dr Shaw and the Engineers were SACRIFICED to give us the Plot for Alien Covenant, the David Arc could continue the Themes of Prometheus....
And Alien Covenant did bring forwards a lot of those Themes, just they felt you could touch upon them with David and Walter. The CURVE-BALL that David had Created the Xenomorph does fit PERFECTLY with the Themes of Prometheus, and the Monster we saw in ALIEN and the Android Influence on the Franchise.
The Problem is that MOST of the Fans always saw the Xenomorph as ANCIENT... be it discovered by the Space Jockey, Created by the Space Jockey or any other Origin.
Fans just was NOT prepared for a Curve-ball that it was a more recent Creation and also ONE by a MAD ROBOT!
The Xenomorph is a DELICATE subject, a ICON for Fans and Sadly not many would agree the AC Plot was a Good Idea!
In Hindsight David should have Created something more Different.... yet more similar to the Xenomorph than the Deacon was...
If he had Created the Neomorph that then would Egg Morph a Host to Produce how they Procreated and so then Neomorph like Monsters would break from the Egg Cocoons (be bit more like Gremlins).
And have him say that the Engineers had attempted to Create some Monstrous Creations from the Black Goo that they could NOT control... but he has attempted to Create his own and Perfect what they did.
We then see David have another Experiment that he uses maybe Dr Shaw for were we see INFECTED Human Egg Cells produce Eggs that contain a Type of Face Hugger... we could carry on to Create a Ultra-morph that would look like a Cross between a Xenomorph and Neomorph.
Basically David did-not have to be shown to Create the Xenomorph, he could have created something NEW and referenced the Engineers attempts they failed with. The David-Arc would be IN TACT the Xenomorph still a Mystery but NOW we kind of know more about HOW it could have been Created...
But instead we got Alien Covenant and now its a case of HOW do you FIX that?
Jun-04-2020 3:12 PM
I think the DAMAGE is done... you have to TRY and see how we can FIX this...
You are NOT going to please all the Fans.... and so i think to Continue is a Poisoned Chalice...
A lot of what Prometheus had SET-UP has been brushed away, what remains does come down to David and the Experiments the Desire to Create.... you can bring the Engineers back into it.... the SCOPE of them is HUGE.. surely for a Race who have Star-Maps to other Galaxies and are Millions of Years old they would NOT all be Found to just STICK AROUND the Zeta 2 System.
We need to look at WHY the Engineers had been Messing about with all that CRAP on LV-223, surely if they wanted to KILL OFF the Population of Earth then they just do what DAVID had done to the Engineers...
ALIEN EGGS are a Dumb Ass Weapon!
If you intent is ONLY to Destroy a Potential Foe!
The ALIEN is one Sinister, Disturbing Creature a HORROR... Once you get those Eggs onto a Planet and they GET out of CONTROL.... your left with a Massive Hive World of Nasty, Aggressive Invasive Parasitic Killing Machines.
Whoever would Create such a thing must have some Pretty Much Disturbed/Sinister thinking.
So you have to think of more to Creating something like that than purely as a WEAPON!
I think you need to look at more of a Reason for the Engineers Experiments than just to Create something to KILL off any THREATS... unless they are Sadistic.... then we have to go and Discover WHY they are so Wicked.
So i think we need to look at what the Engineers were doing... if we ASSUME that they DID-NOT create the Xenomorph, they Certainly was Experimenting on similar things.
You see if these beings are just CREATORS then we have to wonder WHY do they Create? Do they really just go around and Seed Worlds and Visit them to Create Humanoids to then just KILL for the sake of it?
If they only do so when a Creation gets out of Hand or does-not behave the way they intend... then DROPPING DOWN on them URNS filled with the Sacrificial Goo will be the ULTIMATE Reset Button!
So there has to be more to the Experiments some Engineers were conducting....
So what we have with David is that he has seen what the Black Goo can do and he has been Experimenting, and Cross-Hybridizing and what we see he has done is CREATE something that is more SUPERIOR than the Neomorph, than the Deacon that came from Dr Shaws Fetus, and maybe David has Perfected what the Engineers had attempted!
So when the Engineers come and Discover that DAVID has Created his Masterpiece.... HOW would the Engineers view this Creation? They maybe would be Impressed but also their Ego would be Dented?
How would the Engineers feel about David... and see that he is SUPERIOR to Humans, and the Engineers see that Humans have Sub-Created something that is more Superior to the Engineers Creations (Humans) again they could be Impressed but also their Ego could be Dented.
The Engineers are Creators..... they would be starring at a Superior Creation (David/Walter) that came from their own Creations (Mankind) who has Created a Horror that is maybe more Superior to the Engineers Attempts..
David has Perfected the Art of Creating Horrific Monsters from the Engineers Secrets.
We are NOT yet at ALIEN, we are NOT quite at the Bio-Mechanical Horror of ALIEN... so Davids Beast needs more Evolving!
I think we need to have the Engineers come back and Attempt to Combine David and his Creation and MAKE the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph... and this is HOW the Xenomorph is Born!
This means David has taken what the Engineers had Started, he has Created his own Near Perfection, and then the Engineers come and FINISH off what David had Started.... and the Space Jockey pays the ULTIMATE Hubris in trying to think that Restarting Experiments instead of Abandoning them is a Good Idea!
David is thus the Middle Man who took the Engineers Secrets to Create the Protomorph, which the Engineers then EVOLVE into the Xenomorph from the Franchise.
Again this would LIKELY not Please all the Fans.... you can try and involve David and the Engineers, even introduce the Space Jockey as another Race... but it WONT please everyone...
Especially those who see the Xenomorph as being something that NO-ONE had Created.
Jun-04-2020 3:34 PM
So... David must defeat humanity, get his woman and build the Giger World... The Happy End.
David is probably closing in on ways to clone himself...Becoming human(using peter Weylands DNA)!
How would everyone feel about a flesh and blood David?
Jun-04-2020 3:46 PM
"I think the evolution of the Alien himself is nearly over, but what I was trying to do was transcend and move to another story, which would be taken over by A.I.’s. The world that the AI might create as a leader if he finds himself on a new planet. We have actually quite a big layout for the next one"
Certainly Chris this seemed to be what RS intentions was.
So David wants to be a Creator still, what kind of a WORLD would he Create? It depends on his Agenda!
We see David had Created his Xenomorph... if his PLANS are to merely Create a ARMY of Xenomorphs then surely he would just take as Many Female Colonist down to Planet 4 and Continue with them as he did with Dr Shaw!
He could then take Many Eggs back to the Covenant and SET-OFF to Planet 4 to again MASS PRODUCE more. OR he could just attempt to MASS PRODUCE the Eggs from Female Colonist on the Covenant... i would assume the Face Huggers would NOT do as he would need some Black Goo (but he could have got some).
HOWEVER..... this is a VERY much XENOMORPH Flick... and RS said the NEXT movie would NOT be about the Xenomorph (does not mean it wont have any) but it would be about A.I
So does this mean its gonna be about ONE very MAD Robot? Are there Spares to Walter so he could build more Walters and Transfer his Soul into them?
Something we are Overlooking is that when RS talks about A.I he refers to the Replicants in Blade Runner as being a A.I
Something else is that David had said to Daniels that he will TUCK IN the Children... His Face Huggers are his Children.... but we also have the Human Embryo's
"The world that the AI might create as a leader "
How can David be a Leader? He is a Servant to Humans, are the Colonist going to Accept David? They may think he is Walter and are they going to just accept a ROBOT as King?
David wanted to Create a New Eden with Dr Shaw but she Rejected him! If she did-not would they had Created just Horrific Xenomorphs?
Dr Shaw could not Create.. not in the Traditional Sense, so maybe David could have offered to TRY and see if he could HELP her to Create a HUMANOID?
But ALAS all that become of her was to be used to Create the Xenomorph and so David has shown he can Perfect a Monster the Engineers had attempted to Create!
Could he maybe be Tempted to see if he could Create his OWN Civilization of Humanoids?
I think we have to remember another Quote from David to Daniels when she asked WHAT KIND of a World they could Build... he replies to her "if we are KIND it will be a KIND World"
I think we also have to look at the Nature Boy Song for the Trailer to Alien Covenant the Lyrics to seem to FIT with David and so lets look at this Part
Then we spoke of many things: Fools and kings
Then he said to me "The greatest thing you'll ever learn Is to love and be loved in return"
We see with David he was Mistreated by Mankind, had he been made to Feel Loved would he had Turned out Different?
So all things considered i would ASSUME that David could be looking to EVOLVE those Embryo's and Create his OWN version of Humanity.
If David has a Colony Infrastructure Set Up, and he then Raises these Evolved Embryo's into Children who have NO CONTACT with anyone else... ONLY with David.
Then he would NOT only be their Leader, but he could proclaim to be their GOD and Creator!
But dont forget that 3-4 Parties will be incoming to where David is going.... One are the Engineers.... it is likely another will be at LEAST another Human Colony... they would maybe be Expecting something DIFFERENT to what they Discover..
A World of Hybrid Humans being ruled by a Android... what would the Hybrid Humans think when incoming Humans inform them that David is NOT a God... when they are Faced with a Walter and they Discover they are actually HUMANS who have become the Experiments to a Twisted Android wanna be GOD who wishes to turn his Creators into his Creations!
The $£"% would HIT the Fan!
For a Wanna be GOD when your Creations become Corrupted then you would have to be Resorted to Cleansing..... which is where the Xenomorphs would have to be Unleashed!
What is the Result of a Face Hugger on a Hybrid Superior Human another Evolution of the Xenomorph?
So indeed this is HOW i interpreted what RS was going to do with the Alien Covenant Sequel
Jun-04-2020 3:49 PM
Especially those who see the Xenomorph as being something that NO-ONE had Created.
Yeah, that's a tough one.
I don't think The xeno evolving from a small bug over the eons, is anything special to write home about(or make a movie about)
I'd MUCH rather the xeno's originate from something evil.
Jun-04-2020 3:52 PM
"How would everyone feel about a flesh and blood David?"
Well before Prometheus landed i did Wonder if we would be seeing a Pinocchio situation with David, where he would become a Real Boy.... of Sorts and what a Hubris if then he could be Infected with a Face Hugger.
We have to Remember the Themes are about Evolution, Perfection and Creation! And Walter is a Perfection of David as far as Aesthetically... but he lacks the Knowledge and Free-will of David... but i think we can GUARANTEE that David will end up in a Walter Body (Covenant bound to have Spares to Build One)
It seems a Walter could be a Synthetic Construct... and so part Organic... and i would NOT be Surprised if this was Intended to play some Eventual Role in the Journey to the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph.
So yeah i would not be surprised if David would look to Perfect his Body or Find a Perfect Host for his SOUL.
Jun-04-2020 3:56 PM
So indeed this is HOW i interpreted what RS was going to do with the Alien Covenant Sequel
I'm wondering how RS intends to tie in with the original A L I E N ?
Jun-04-2020 4:21 PM
From what we knew after Alien Covenant it seemed that RS was 2-3 Movies away from ALIEN.
Therefor his Next Movie would have been where David goes next and what he gets up to (World he Creates) before the Climax where £"$£"% hits the FAN! This Movie he claimed would NOT be about the Xenomorph but A.I and what KIND of a World that David would Create.
It seems Likely that this World would be Origae-6 which we can Safely Assume is NOT near LV-223. However it seems that the Events of Davids Actions will lead to LV-426 by the Time the Prequels are Finished.
so the Sequel will likely take place on Origae-6 and will be set in Part 7.5+ Years after Alien Covenant, it will NOT had Focused on the Xenomorph, but would have had 1-2 more Sequels that would then lead us to ALIEN.
To arrive at ALIEN then Davids Creation has some Evolving to go and would have to be ON a Engineer Ship that ends up Crash Landing on LV-426 and so we have to come to HOW does a Engineer Ship come into Play and WHY would it be near LV-426
Ridley Scott had said the Engineers would return to Planet 4 and discover the Destruction and would be after the Culprit...
So some Engineers will return and go to Origae-6 this could be where the DERELICT would come from...
I would assume that before we get to ALIEN what we would see is that the DERELICT is either.
1) Carrying Eggs to LV-223 to be Experimented on but the Ship has to be Forced to land on near by LV-426
2) The Ship goes to LV-223 to Evolve the Eggs and then attempts to leave LV-223 but is then Forced to land on LV-426
I would assume Option 2
Jun-04-2020 6:28 PM
OK, the next movie is 10 years on after a rescue mission finds David dissected on Origae-6. Done with the AI theme. Investigate the Engineers and the background of the Xenomorphs. Go for the big theme and explain the LV-426 ship and eggs. Also, explain the intention of the Engineers. When I hear RS talk he's already changing his focus and its back to the Xenomorphs now. I give up. Give this thing to Dennis V and let him run w/ it. I believe the Mouse Kingdom wants to go forward but if they know what they are doing give it to someone else. The Prometheus and AC went off the rails. Have RS be director of photography and give the big seat to Dennis and wrap this up now. I do not want to see another robot movie or about characters no one cares about. I'm sorry but my patience is finite. The fact that RS got 2 movies out and people are still feeling meh about these films says it all.
Jun-05-2020 6:10 AM
The fact that RS got 2 movies out and people are still feeling meh about these films says it all.
I remember walking out of the theater after ALien3..Thinking: What the hell was that!? ...then Walking out of Alien:Resurrection..Also thinking: What the hell was that!? Pretty much everone was in agreement: Both films sucked and the next Alien movie would too.
I don't think there's any magical director or super plot that's going to satisfy the new or old fan base.
Jun-05-2020 2:08 PM
Well I don't agree in the slightest. Prometheus and Covenant are excellent movies. I wouldn't mind ten more movies just like this.
Jun-05-2020 3:56 PM
I think the Problem stems down from WHAT do you do for a Prequel?
If you go for a Chronological Direct Prequel where in Real Time you would show HOW the Eggs got on the Derelict, then Assuming that the EGGS were NOT placed on the Ship say AFTER it had Landed on LV-426 then what you are left with is a Movie that would have to be either SET in the Distant Past (how do Humans play a Role) or its SET not FAR behind the Time-Line of ALIEN (which means the Space Jockey Remains are not so Ancient).
Once you also have SHOWN the HOW the Eggs get on the Ship in ADDITION to HOW/WHEN/WHERE they was Discovered/Created by the Space Jockey.
Then there really is NOT so much more you can keep doing with the Xenomorph once you have those Answers...
so then it turns to WHO are the Space Jockey Race and WHY would they have such Cargo, if the Eggs are a Engineered Bio-Weapon then its a case of Answering as to WHY would they Create such a thing.... against WHO!
^^^^^ THIS.. is the other Plot/Revelation that they Felt was more Important and would OPEN up a whole New Franchise to Explore....
At this Time however it was NOT going to be a Revelation of the Xenomorph being a Creation by a Human Created Robot, in Hindsight they felt they should KEEP the Origin a Mystery but give us enough to Figure out its Origins are Connected to the Engineers, the LV-223 Facilities are Horrors they was Experimenting with....
In Hindsight it was a mistake to make the Clues too Vague, and NOT really have any Connecting Monster on-screen apart from the Trilobite/Deacon which was sadly NOT a Good Enough Substitute because all we in effect got would be as if ALIEN had Ended at the Kane Chest Busting Shot in Alien.
In Hindsight.... after Prometheus they should have made a Sequel that would have SENT in a recovery Mission to LV-223 where it would be a more Alieny kind of Movie with some Monsters more like the Xenomorph and more Clues to HOW/WHEN they was Created.
Then they could have CLOSED the Door to ALIEN and Fans could have got more Understanding of the Types of Horrors the Engineers were creating and then maybe be saying "WOW they was Cool i would love to see more of the Horrors the Engineers had Created"
Then another Sequel that would FOLLOW where David and Dr Shaw were going and Uncover more about the Engineers and other Mystery of Prometheus, and then indeed they could have the David Arc as he Creates his OWN version of the Monsters.
This route would have KEPT the Xenomorph Ancient and would NOT have had to give us Vanilla Xenomorphs to Answer the Questions. It would then also had allowed RS to explore the Engineers, and Themes of Prometheus of which DAVID was always going to be a BIG part.
But ALAS we got Alien Covenant and NOW we have to go to Damage Control.... its going to be Hard to Continue with David and it be about him a lot, and to then Give Xenomorphs and Answers as far as LV-426 which some Fans want and are Hopeful they would be revealed as NOT having anything to do with David.
So you have to incorporate David's Role... but then try and have his role as far as the Final Product reduced.. as i mentioned in previous Posts... he becomes the MIDDLE MAN.
But thats not going to please some Fans... but then if we have it were Humans turn up to Origae-6 and Discover that David is Dead the Colonist turned into KNOCK OFF versions of the Xenomorph... and as the Humans come to Terms with this.. the Engineers Rock Up and Unleash the Original Xenomorphs.
For some Fans this would be GREAT... for those who liked what Prometheus was doing it would just be another lets Cook the Beast again Movie.
Jun-05-2020 4:33 PM
I think there are too many problems trying to make a movie that leads directly to Alien. The facehugger exiting the SJ and burning a hole in the floor is still a mystery as is the size discrepancy of the ship we see compared to the "egg silo"- and we know why the scenes were cut that way. The film would likely divide fans even further.
I think the best way forward is to focus on the Engineers and essentially end in a way that fans could possibly piece the connection to Alien for themselves.
Jun-05-2020 4:51 PM
"Well before Prometheus landed i did Wonder if we would be seeing a Pinocchio situation with David, where he would become a Real Boy.... of Sorts and what a Hubris if then he could be Infected with a Face Hugger."
Start AC2 with synthetic David creating a human version himself And unlike the Ripley clones in A:R (mutated) Have the David clones 'born' with slight imperfections.
David noticed a small blemish over the clone's right shoulder and tired of his clones screaming and pleading, He immediately sliced this ones throat....
He desired perfection and would continue to destroy until his goal was reached.
Synthetic David: "How do you feel my son?"
Human David (#35), glancing at the pile of David corpses,: "Perfectly fine father"
Jun-05-2020 5:00 PM
"focus on the Engineers"
Since there's no mention of the Engineers in Alien 1 - 4....I'd think they need to remove them from the franchise with one big battle? (or did David already do that?)
Jun-05-2020 5:24 PM
Indeed that just shows the Pickle we are in now....
Do we Brush under the Carpet what we saw in Alien Covenant regarding David and the Xenomorph? I think its tricky... you see if we go to just ignore any more Xenomorphs and Davids Destiny does not lead to LV-426 then people are still going to want to know so HOW/WHEN/WHY did the Eggs get onto LV-426 and then some fans would want to know WHAT the Hell was David doing then and WHY has he not carried on with his WOLF?
So its a Pickle they find themselves in!
The Solution/Solutions i have proposed over time could WORK.. but they would require Patience from Fans.. you will NOT get from Alien Covenant to ALIEN in a single Movie... so the Next One would be a SET-UP but then its a case of Fans maybe not wanting to go through a What Kind of World that David Creates... before we get to things going to POT and then another Movie that would then STRING everything together where his Experiments are Evolved and End up on the Derelict.
So you could likely keep such a Set-Up but do a Aftermath Movie which Alien Covenant was basically the Aftermath to Prometheus 1.5 aka The Crossing... so we have a By-Pass and now go to a "what kind of World do incoming Humans discover that has gone to POT after Davids Paradise becomes a Hell"
I think even if they had David admit he just found a Egg and it was Aggressive and yet he found the Neomorphs to be more Controllable and so he Began to try and make a Amalgamation of them and the Xenomorph to create his Masterpiece we saw in Alien Covenant.
I think for a lot of Fans they would still want a Movie that is a LOT less about David, and they would want to see Vanilla Xenomorphs Return in Engineer Ships!
in Hindsight this is the PICKLE we are in because FOX Caved in to thinking the Fans wanted Xenomorphs and a Direct Prequel Answers... and then the Mistake to decide that its GREAT to show David as the Creator.
David should have Created something more Different, a Ultramorph and have him show how he got to it and this allows us to then assume the Engineers did similar Thousands of Years ago to get the Xenomorph.
Or they should have made a more Alieny Movie that went to LV-223 to investigate Dr Shaws SOS and with this introduce something more Similar to the Xenomorph and show us that one Ship of Eggs had escaped this Place and Ended Up on LV-426...
Thus then allowing another Movie to go with David and Shaw to seek out the Engineers...
What we have now is a Story that has Written itself into a Corner.
Jun-05-2020 5:24 PM
MonsterZero I am referring to Scott's wanting to explore the SJ and that's where the prequels went. There could be a big battle as the final prequel movie, but imagining that brings up imagery of Star Wars and such. I really can't think of a good way to link up to Alien directly. I do know that I don't want to see sprawling movies that never link up.
Jun-05-2020 5:32 PM
You make a Good Point...
Indeed we could see David go and Evolve the Human Embryos to create a more Perfect Humanoid than Humans and Engineers. Then to see his Disappointment when his Creations become more like Himself!
They CANT Procreate!
He would then need to GET more Humans to gain Embryo's to Re-Create more of his New Species... what happens when they Discover him using some Captured and Hidden Humans.... and his Creations Discover that THIS is where they came from and HAD it been that David had left their Embryo's to Grow Naturally as Humans they would have been able to Create instead of being some Abomination Engineered by David.
This is HOW i see the LV-223 Engineers, they are either a Engineered/Cloned Version of Planet 4 Engineers who are Engineered for a Purpose... and CANT procreate... or they are some Engineers who Self Evolved themselves at the Hubris of losing the Ability to Procreate.
Either way they became Frustrated they cant Create... like David and they like David began to find other ways to Create! (Creating Horrors).
I would not be Surprised if the Space Jockey would be Revealed to be one of Davids Creations..
Jun-05-2020 5:37 PM
We have to remember that RS said the Engineers come and go to Planet 4 at certain Intervals and so those who come and go could take Hundreds of Years between Visits.
So those who Return to Planet 4 could go off after David and Ultimately end up DEAD... there could be other Engineers and Creations in FAR FAR reaches of the Galaxy that would NEVER appear in our Part of the Galaxy... or maybe abandon our Section of Space and Leave us to ROT!
I think if we got a Climax to the Prequels then Yeah we cant have any Engineers left within the Section of the Galaxy that Mankind has Explored in the Franchise... i also think LV-223 would have to be DESTROYED too.
Jun-05-2020 5:43 PM
"I would not be Surprised if the Space Jockey would be Revealed to be one of Davids Creations.."
That would be something! Need a short story about this!
"I do know that I don't want to see sprawling movies that never link up. "
Even if they don't make another movie, I REALLY want to know what RS has in mind....I hope Luke Scott speaks with him daily!
Jun-05-2020 6:01 PM
Actually, I am fine with the Quadrilogy being self contained and separate from the prequels. That way, the prequels could be explored and fans might see the prequels as just more movies in the over all Alienverse?
Jun-06-2020 1:39 AM
"you will NOT get from Alien Covenant to ALIEN in a single Movie.."
The problem with that kind of thinking is why the franchise (and the prequels) got into limbo. This desire to stretch and milk endlessly. Like: "We can make a great standalone film. But no - we will tear it into pieces and feed the public a little". You really don’t see that this is just an attempt to put the viewer on a hook? This is similar to some modern games: you can get a whole great game, but no: you will buy a part + 100 DLC for it.
"you will NOT get from Alien Covenant to ALIEN in a single Movie.."
Yes, you will! Even 2 hours runtime is enough to tell a good prequel. Just throw away the whole philosophy of fingering and give people information - technology, culture, society of Engineers. Show not what David creates, but how he does it. And most importantly, stop trying to milk your viewer. Does Ridley think the audience is stupid? He thinks they don’t recognize the attempt to hook them? He is very mistaken!
Jun-07-2020 11:10 AM
"Actually, I am fine with the Quadrilogy being self contained and separate from the prequels"
Certainly DK this appears to have been the Intention at the point they Evolved/Changed the Draft from Alien Engineers to Paradise which then became Prometheus.
Unfortunately it seems those in Charge Felt that Fans wanted to see the Xenomorph back and its Origins shown and eventually lead us to HOW/WHEN those Eggs got on the Derelict which leads us to Alien Covenant which by Virtue of its Plot has caused a Stink and NOT pleased those Fans who wanted the Answer and Xenomorph, while also Throwing Away the Potential that a Prometheus 2 had(more about Dr Shaw and her attempts to get Answers from the Engineers).
"The problem with that kind of thinking is why the franchise (and the prequels) got into limbo"
To a degree this is what the Original Franchise had done apart from Alien 3 i think that Prometheus Fell into the same Boat as the other Movies..
While INDEED with Alien Covenant it definitely had LENT itself to NEEDING a Conclusion and this is the Pickle we are in. The Problem we have is WHERE to we go instead?
Another Movie that is NOT directly connected to the Prequels or the Alien Franchise, but what would that entail? Human Ship goes off to a World and Discovers a Egg, or they Intercept a Floating Space Hulk (Derelict/Abandoned Ship) that has a Egg. This is kind of Familiar Territory that we have already seen, the Main Difference would come from NOT having any Greedy Person or Corporation trying to Exploit the Xenomorph.
I personally done see much more Millage with the Xenomorph if it Continues to be used/confined in way that it was in the Franchise.
If it was a Engineered Bio-Weapon then you need to look more at the Story of WHY and by WHOM, and also at WHAT other uses can you from the Xenomorph. The Experiments on LV-223 is a suitable way to EXPAND on Eggs.
If it was revealed to be some Native Organism to some World, that act like some kind of Insect Hive, then i think your Limited... you need to Elevate it Beyond just a Bug, and Expand the Xenomorph to be more than we have currently seen.
But its how do you do that with what appears to be the Origins of a Created/Engineered Product, it would appear the Origin of the Black Goo or what had the Sacrificial Goo been used on to Create those Experiments on LV-223 is the ONLY real way to Expand a Background to the Xenomorph... The Xenomorph Sadly just seems to be a Consequence from Messing about with something that the Engineers/David should have LEFT alone.
Regarding making a Single Movie... my point was that the Way that Alien Covenant is Set-Up which is that at some point 18-28 Years before ALIEN we have David begin to Create the Xenomorph that eventually gets on a Engineer Ship that then Lands on LV-426 at some point over the NEXT 8-17 Years after the END of Alien Covenant.
But YES i would say you can make a SINGLE movie that Connects to ALIEN but if this Movie is a Continuation of Alien Covenant then in order to Confine it to a single Movie you would have to BY-PASS quite a LOT.
Alien Covenant did this with Prometheus, it had By-Passed the events from the End of Prometheus to the point that the Covenant Ship arrived via detecting the Signal from Planet 4. So we had the AFTERMATH of the 10 Years that passed between Prometheus and Alien Covenant, with only the Flash Back Scene and the Destruction left behind for us to see what had Happened.
If a Alien Covenant Sequel was to do the same and IN EFFECT to go and By-Pass the Events that are likely Planned Next then YES you could get a Movie that Connects to ALIEN in 2 Hours.
We basically have AC then Skip past AC2 and arrive at AC3
UNLESS you are to attempt a Prequel that will give Answers to LV-426 that DONT Connect to Alien Covenant and basically go to show that the Eggs/Derelict have either been on LV-426 before the Prometheus Mission or they occur After but are NOT connected to anything that Happened in Alien Covenant.
Jun-08-2020 5:01 AM
"then in order to Confine it to a single Movie you would have to BY-PASS quite a LOT."
A lot of what? Stages of preparation? Spend 2 hours and about 10 years more on a film that is destined to become another prologue?
I heard it before Prometheus. That film was supposed to be the first part, the prologue of a new series of films.
I heard it before Covenant. This movie made U-turn was supposed to be the first part, the prologue of another new series of films.
And now you wants to spend ~10 years for another sequel, but actually prologue? Do you really want it? Ridley already had two chances to make a prologue and a middle film. Now he must take off the last one. Or not. But no "new starts."
"If a Alien Covenant Sequel was to do the same and IN EFFECT to go and By-Pass the Events"
But what events? About how David is building a bungalow? Or how he blissfully walking in the woods and looked at the trees? Or how does he conduct experiments in vitro? Or plays the flute and speaks poetry?
There is no doubt - this will give us a lot of information about xenomorphs, engineers and in general about understanding the world of franchise! We can spend 2 hours playing the flute and about 10 years of waiting for the next film!
Undoubtedly the themes of immortality and AI are worth keeping the franchise hostage. The franchise about alien monsters, civilizations and technologies.
Evolution doesn't work like that. But some kind of alchemy - yes. And if you followed the news about AC, then you know that Ridley said that the creation of the Alien would not be evolution, but rather alchemy. Oh, and now he's talking about evolution. This, plus his words about AI (he clearly confuses Artificial Intelligence and Artificial Life) make it clear that sometimes he does not understand what he is talking about.
Jun-08-2020 6:39 AM
You make some Valid Points in regards to when i was talking about By-Passing.
What i mean is that Movies do By-Pass certain Periods of Time, with Alien Covenant, there are Periods that are NOT Necessary to cover in Detail in a Movie, such as WHAT it was that Dr Shaw had done after she Collected David to when they Left LV-223 in a Juggernaught. We had The Crossing which Summarized a bit of what they did between leaving LV-223 until we saw David Arrive at Planet 4. There is quite a bit that HAPPENED after the Bombardment, what happened to Dr Shaw and HOW long was she alive, did any Engineers Survive for a while, more Detail on what David was doing to obtain his Beastory
There was NO need to cover these as there are Clues and Evidence to what Happened...
So this is what i mean by you could By-Pass a lot of what David would do NEXT....
We can Assume he is off to Origae-6 which will take him 7 Years and 4 Months, we dont need to see much about what he does during that Time, would he Continue his Experiments on the Covenant and its Crew during the Journey? We dont really need to spend a lot of time on this... ONLY any Results.
When he gets to Origae-6 what does he do then? Does he awaken some of the Colonist and begin to Build the Cabins and the Infrastructure the Colony would need to begin (surely pretending to be Walter). So again we dont need to see a lot of WHAT KIND of a World he would Build.
Looking at what RS had said then the Movie would NOT have been about Xenomorphs but about A.I and he also claimed the Replicants are A.I and so what he is talking about is indeed Artificial Life if we look at A.I as being solely Connected to a Artificial Set of Computing that can act as a Intelligence.
We can ONLY really Speculate on what his Next Movie would have been but i would say that the First Act and likely a Hour of the Movie would show us what ever he has Helped to Build/Create, as in we could see some kind of Colony Established and likely David is not playing the Humble Servant Walter....
So what we would have is David in his Paradise that he has Created that WOULD NOT be a Xenomorph Nest..... and then we would be seeing some incoming Parties which means at least ONE other Human Ship, which their Arrival and Revelations could UPSET the Paradise/Colony that David has set up. Then the ENGINEERS would likely Rock Up in the 3rd Act.
It would have been LIKELY the Next Movies 3rd/Final Act would have introduced the Engineers and Ships, and these would be the Introduction to HOW it is Eventually we get the Derelict.
The Process of the Evolution/Engineering of the Eggs to become what we got in ALIEN and the Eggs getting on the Derelict and Explaining WHY it was in the Vicinity of LV-223/LV-426 before we get the Space Jockeys event are all LIKELY what a 3rd Connecting Movie would have shown.
The Problem is a LOT of Fans would see this as a Process where the Emphasis was again on/about David and Creation, and Knowledge and Control (restricting Truth/Knowledge) and so would NOT please Fans who just want to get to ALIEN already.... i dont think many Fans would want to SIT though a Movie that will NOT give us the Xenomorph again and NOT show us HOW/WHEN/WHY we get to ALIEN/LV-426
Which is WHY i said that maybe they would be better off giving us a SINGLE Movie that Connects to ALIEN were a Human Ship does arrive at Oriage-6 where they would be expecting by NOW that the Colony would be Set Up.
They get NO Signal, No Reply but they detect that a Colony is down their, and we see that a Basic Colony has been Built but as we Touch Down we arrive Years or Months after something has GONE very WRONG!
You then in the 2nd Act introduce some Returning Engineers and the Final Act would be showing a Engineer Ship leaving with Eggs on-board but NOT show us where it was going... so we have some Ambiguity here.
Jun-08-2020 7:08 AM
I think with HOW we had Alien Covenant, and considering we are at the Moment seeing David off with the Covenant in his Control which is NO-DOUBT heading to Origae-6... i think its hard to in a SINGLE MOVIE to give us more about the Xenomorphs or Engineers especially if we want more Depth to the Engineers than Prometheus Military Goons.
There would be Too-Many Components to TRY and Juggle... which is WHY some Sacrifices had to be made as far as Dr Shaw and Engineers in Alien Covenant.
Thats why we are in a Pickle at the Moment, as far as if we ACCEPT that David will take the Covenant to Origae-6 and that from his Xenomorphs will eventually come the Eggs that are on the Derelict.
What we have to have Happen prior to ALIEN on top of what ever David may have planned.. is as Follows.
*Davids Xenomorphs have to go through more Evolution/Engineering.
*A Engineer Ship has to come into Play.
*This Ship will Load Up with the Eggs and then would be OFF to some place for some Reason that takes the Ship to the Zeta 2 system.
You could Completely By-Pass David by having a Movie that shows another Ship that either..
1) Goes to LV-223 and explores the Temples and Uncovers more Horrors and Clues, and awakens Engineers or some come to LV-223 and we get indications that the Xenomorph does predate David and after the events on LV-223 the Company Discover there is a Ship on LV-426.
2) Have a mission go to Planet 4 and come across Horrors on that World Again, and then we see some Engineers come in and then at the End we indicate they take those Eggs on a Ship and we are shown they intend to go to LV-223 to Re-engineer and Mass Produce them! (We can Figure out what Happened Next).
so both of these would just IGNORE what David does Next... But i doubt this would be the Route RS would have taken us.
I think in Part we would see that David would Charade as Walter and come up with some Excuse as to what happened to the Crew, he would awaken some Humans to then Set-Up a Colony, where then he would likely GET RID of them...
With Infrastructure in Place he would Engineer those Embryos to Create his Own Humanoids, who would be Superior to Mankind and he would Basically tell them that he Created all this and Them and basically try and pass of as a Pseudo King/God
But something will Happen that would reveal to those Creations that David is a Sham! They will Discover he is actually a Creation of Mankind and that they are Human before David had decided to Experiment with them at Embryo Stage.
When your Creations gain Knowledge that you would NOT want them to have (Discovery of the Truth) then you have a Rebellion on your Hands... and when your Creation gets out of Hand then you have to Result to Punishment! (unleash the Wolf on your Lambs).
This is HOW i have interpreted what kind of a Flick we may have been in for... i could be COMPLETELY WAY off Base though ;)
Again such a Plot would FIT with Prometheus etc... but would NOT please Fans who was not Happy the Prequels and Origins of the Xenomorph are about DAVID.
I think there is Potential with the Prequels to continue with what Prometheus was doing and NOT have to be Confined to giving Fans the Answers to LV-426 while they maybe Clutch at Straws the Revelations would show the Xenomorph had Predated David.
My Opinion.... David = Xenomorphs is a Mistake... he should have Created something that is more Different..
But then some Fans would want Xenomorphs Boo Hoo! well go and Put Alien Anthology on ;) A Story about seeing David create something similar could give us Clues to HOW the Original was Created Thousands of Years ago... while Retaining some Mystery.
In Hindsight.... we should have had a Prometheus 2 where a Investigative Mission goes to LV-223 and use this to give us more clues about the Xenomorph and even show us something Very Close and clues about HOW/WHEN the Engineers had experimented with such Horrors and indicating then that one of their Experiments had escaped as far as LV-426.
Then they could have released a Spin Off Sequel that follows David and Dr Shaw in search of the Engineers and Answers without having to be Shackled Down by ALIEN.
The Prior Movie (LV-223 one) could leave it open to go and bring back Xenomorphs by Virtue of indicating that the Derelict was NOT the only Ship that managed to leave LV-223 with a Deadly Cargo of Eggs.
But ALAS with Alien Covenant we have got into a Pickle!
Jun-08-2020 11:28 AM
"In Hindsight.... we should have had a Prometheus 2 where a Investigative Mission goes to LV-223 and use this to give us more clues about the Xenomorph"
I think this is still on the table? Don't think this would stall the franchise ...make it a pure horror flick without any deep meaning.
Just strip it down to: space monsters eat humans visitors. Shut the brain down for one movie.
Jun-08-2020 12:03 PM
I don’t think that re-visiting such dead places as LV-223 and Planet 4 is a good idea.
We know: LV-223 is a rocks and a stone catacombs. And Planet 4 is a forest like in your backyard, with some primitive dolmens. If these planets had biomechanical aesthetics/buldings, it would be interesting to return to them. Well, so? Sand and bushes... xDDD
This is good food for the book, but not for the film. In addition, Ridley has already designated the destination - Origae-6. It would be simply ugly in relation to people who still keep a credit of trust - to deceive them and go to places already seen.
My opinion is that if the stories of Prometheus and the Covenant were not told everything or missed something, then so be it! This must be left and move on.
"With Infrastructure in Place he would Engineer those Embryos to Create his Own Humanoids"
I like this idea. David creates his Star Children. But what if they become uncontrollable and aggressive. What if they have a... Double-Y chromosome?! O_o
I remember how in the early rumors of the Covenant there was a character named Morse. And it was not just a coincidence.
This is just a rumor. But in the Covenant there are story arches that consist of rumors about Prometheus. You will not find this in the various scenarios of Prometheus, only on the news sites of 2010-2011. It makes wonder - will Alien: Awakening use rumors of Alien: Covenant?
- Young Engineer.
Jun-08-2020 3:38 PM
"If these planets had biomechanical aesthetics/buldings"
Certainly i know that one Disappointment with Alien Covenant i am sure MOST of us would have expected to be shown a Engineer World that would be like maybe Krypton from The Man of Steel with a HR Giger Twist.
And see Floating Bio-Mechanical Cities.. like HR Giger versions of this.
However it seems they decided to TONE this Aesthetic Down... to Continue with it they could have came to a agreement with the HR Giger Estate i suppose.
Regarding David and Star-children then indeed thats the kind of idea i am drawn to more.... if David was to Engineer those Embryo's to become Superior to Humans i would think he would try and Incorporate some of the Xenomorph DNA into them. So you have a Creation who see you as GOD, they OBEY the Rules you have for them, David is their Religion! Should these Creations eventually Discover the Truth and the Lies... then thats WHEN things can Change and if a Rebellious Movement Starts with a Superior Creation and IF they have some kind of Hive-Mind/Telepathy then David could be in TROUBLE!
If these Creations can Procreate then he is in even more Trouble! This would be a bit like a Blade Runner however, but i do think that RS would have been going for that kind of idea. But alas its been done with Blade Runner.
The Problem we have is how do you introduce the Engineers and give them a lot of Depth, how much of a Movie do you get to Revolve around them and Uncover more about them?
I know some Fans have Speculated that Origae-6 could actually be a Engineer World... even a Dead One would be too much of a COINCIDENCE.
If i go back to the Original Topic... then if we are talking about the Direction that Ridley Scott would have wanted to take us, then indeed it seems he would be going the route that would Center around David, where it would be shown that those Eggs on the Derelict and even the Derelict ending up on LV-426 would NOT have happened if say Dr Shaw allowed David to take them HOME to Earth or if Dr Shaw never put Davids head back on.
Then here is where we STAND at Present..
Year 2105: the USCSS Covenant resumes its Journey to Origae-6 after the Unfortunate Events on Planet 4
The ETA to Origae-6 would be the Year 2112 leaving 10 Years until the Nostromo Crew discover the Derelict on LV-426
From what RS has indicated...
The Covenant would be heading to Origae-6 but there would be some incoming Parties/Players. At some point which we can assume would NOT be shortly after the Covenant has left Planet 4, the Engineers will Return and Discover the Destruction and would WANT to get to the Culprit, they would at some point be going to where David is heading and its UNLIKELY they would Intercept him before he has Established some kind of Base/Home on Origae-6
At least one of the other Parties would have to be a Human Ship, and again we have to assume this Ship does not arrive on Origae-6 until after David has set up a Base/Home.
Thats 2 of the 3/4 Parties... i think its likely ONE of the other Party will be another Human Ship and ONE that is aware of what David has done via the ADVENT message, i would assume this SHIP would arrive maybe after the First Incoming Human Ship (maybe another Colony Ship).
So i think David would have some time on Oriage-6 to do what ever he was going to do (that wont be about Mass Production of Xenomorphs) then we see a Incoming Human Ship.
Latter its a case the Engineers and another Human Ship arrive but who knows what Order.
What we have then is with the Engineers we maybe have HOW we could obtain the Derelict... what for sure is that Origae-6 is located Much Further from LV-223/LV-426
So at some point we have to get to either a Engineer Ship leaves Oriage-6 and head towards LV-426/LV-223 or David (or his Eggs) will get to LV-223 by a None-Engineer Ship and the Derelict will come from LV-223 at a latter point.
The Climax would seem to be that either a Engineer Ship leaves for LV-223 with the Eggs... or the Eggs are Engineered on LV-223 and a Engineer Ship attempts to leave LV-223 with those Eggs.
Where the Final Part is this Ship regardless of which of the above TWO only gets as FAR as LV-426.
Kinda a lot of DOTS to be covered in a Single Movie and also within the Time Constraints of 10 Years.. and i think a lot of Fans may want to By-Pass at least the First Half of those Dots.
Jun-08-2020 3:44 PM
Well i think thats possible... considering that Walter is a Newer Model than David... it is likely he would want to UPGRADE his Body.... It seems that the Walter Models could be Part Organic...
If we do get shown that Walter Models (or a New Model thats Incoming on another Ship) are Synthetic Constructs like ELDON was from the Fire and Stone Comics.
Then indeed this Synthetic Construct could play a Role in how the Organic Xenomorph from AC gains its Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic.
I do suspect that this Eventually would be a Revelation that RS had intended, but i also suspect that something David had Created would be the Space Jockey too.
Jun-09-2020 2:08 AM
"I do not want to see another robot movie or about characters no one cares about. I'm sorry but my patience is finite. The fact that RS got 2 movies out and people are still feeling meh about these films says it all."
Hell yeah, I totally agree
I also think that Fox is to blame for making a mess of all this because it could have been interesting. I do not think that Scott alone is to blame even though his obsession with David is crappy. The scene when you see the differences between Walter and David is alright although too long and too slow but the movie in general is too much about the androids. His interest is not about the Xeno, it is about David which I think is kind of obvious from watching the prequels this far. To me both Prometheus and AC has had about 2 or three characters that I find well enough written, the rest have been background pieces. Compare the characters in the prequels to Alien 1, 2, and 3 and what you have is a rapid decline in quality combine this with and obsession for the robots and you get movies with pieces that are alright but a movie that is not very good in general.
The Engineers seem interesting, make it more about them and less about the robots. Also show that they have got more to do with the creation of the Xeno than David has. Get another writer and a director that does not interfere with the story.
"Do we Brush under the Carpet what we saw in Alien Covenant regarding David and the Xenomorph?"
I would rather have that compared to where we are now.
"I think for a lot of Fans they would still want a Movie that is a LOT less about David. . ."
Yes please although notice that it does not mean to copy the movies that came before. More Engineers please, that was interesting and something new hopefully they will not abandon that although they have got to make sense while at the same time have some mystery about them.
"Just throw away the whole philosophy of fingering and give people information- technology, culture, society of Engineers."
Yep, less flute shit and more about the Engineers although you could have some philosophy with the Engineers and also show how and why they are a danger to humans without over-explaining it. Hopefully it will be more impressive than the Engineers living in stone huts because that was so disappointing. If there are interesting ways to have a story with philosophy while keeping the Engineers and focus on the humans I am for it but not the way that it is now.
". . . the . . . philosophy of fingering. . ."
That sounds like the title of a book, ha ha ha!!
"I would not be Surprised if the Space Jockey would be Revealed to be one of Davids Creations.."
Then they have damaged both the Xeno and the Space Jockey, nice work. ;) Can they be that dumb?
"It would have been LIKELY the Next Movies 3rd/Final Act would have introduced the Engineers and Ships, and these would be the Introduction to HOW it is Eventually we get the Derelict."
That could have been alright, just do not make David into the pilot.
".... i dont think many Fans would want to SIT though a Movie that will NOT give us the Xenomorph again and NOT show us HOW/WHEN/WHY we get to ALIEN/LV-426"
That was the purpose for starting the prequels, right? It is just that they went into a territory that few were interested in (if you doubt it just look at the box office result).
"Thats why we are in a Pickle at the Moment, as far as if we ACCEPT that David will take the Covenant to Origae-6 and that from his Xenomorphs will eventually come the Eggs that are on the Derelict."
The thing is that I will never accept that, it is bad story telling with too much emphasis on David.
"Again such a Plot would FIT with Prometheus etc... but would NOT please Fans who was not Happy the Prequels and Origins of the Xenomorph are about DAVID."
It makes sense the way that it is planned now but I would not want that because to let it be about a robot is just boring.
". . . would NOT have happened if say Dr Shaw allowed David to take them HOME to Earth or if Dr Shaw never put Davids head back on."
I do not like that idea within the alien franchise, leave it to other movies to explore things like that.
". . . and i think a lot of Fans may want to By-Pass at least the First Half of those Dots."
As long as it is about the humans, the monsters and the Engineers I am fine with that. Better human characters and less androids. As long as they do these things I am fine.
". . . but i also suspect that something David had Created would be the Space Jockey too."
Disney is in charge now and I hope that they are smart enough to keep that from happening. In a way I am kind of hopeful with Disney in charge because it was not working under Fox.
Jun-09-2020 5:03 AM
"I also think that Fox is to blame for making a mess of all this because it could have been interesting. I do not think that Scott alone is to blame even though his obsession with David is crappy."
Yes, before the Covenant, this was never the story about David. It was Shaw's journey in search of answers. And David was... well... a talking head that controls an alien ship and speaks with engineers.
Jun-09-2020 5:56 AM
David is a anti-hero and a fresh take. Darth Vader is running this ship.
We'll be back to the story dictated by a superhero soon enough.
Jun-09-2020 3:11 PM
"Yes, before the Covenant, this was never the story about David"
I would say they was BOTH going to be on a Journey, it appeared that RS interest was about David... There is a lot of Philosophy at Play and it seemed at the time (Prometheus) they felt that there are more Important things to Expand on than to give us Xenomorphs and LV-426 Answers as these after-all would just have been that the Xenomorph Eggs on LV-426 are either.
*Merely One of a Number of Horrors Created on LV-223 to be used as PEST CONTROL
*They are a Unintended Result of a contamination of their PESTICIDE.
The Xenomorph being No More to the Engineers as say a Predator Drone is to the US Military. Or so it seems, as it does look like those Engineers did take some PRIDE in what they Created.
The Prequel Expansion seemed to be more about Themes like Creation, and to Sub-Create, and then what Effect that Free-Will and Knowledge has on a Creation as far as Control and seeing their Creator as Superior/The Boss! It was about How Playing God and messing with Stuff can lead to Trouble. A Tale of Hubris on Multiple Layers.
They all Connect down the Ladder to David as a Sub-Creation who is Superior to his Creators, who is Given Free-will and so can gain Knowledge, who becomes Rebellious and feels he is Mistreated and Not Respected as a Superior Being... who then One Day discovers his own Creators Creator... The Engineers and sees them as Not Much different to Humans, they are Separated only by Eons of Passed down Knowledge, Technology and Tools... MORTAL AFTER ALL...
And so with David giving the keys to the Engineers Tool-Shed, he could then become a Creator in his own Right, there is MUCH more to it than that.
But ALAS.. it puts the Emphasis on David too much where a lot of people just see him as a Robot and Not a Main Character.
The Plot is Bold... its Thought Provoking, it does touch on a bit of Blade Runner and Space 2001 but when the ALIEN Franchise came to a PAUSE... i am sure these are NOT the Things that Most Fans would have expected a Prequel to Prioritize on.
In Hindsight maybe such a PLOT should have been a Stand Alone Franchise, inc the Engineers, we just Change the Aesthetic of their Ships/Suits, Change the Weyland Company and it could have been its OWN kind of Franchise.
When Fans back say prior to 2000 thought about the Derelict and the Eggs Origins i dont think many would have even Conceived a Direction of the Prequels.
They would have Expected the Space Jockey to be more ALIEN, and to not be Super Humans who where FOOLS or that a Synthetic Android with Daddy Issues and a Dislike for Humans would be in effect DESTROYING the Space Jockey and then taking their Horrific Creation Tool to go and play Doctor Moreau/Frankenstien and Create the Iconic Monster.
Jun-09-2020 3:24 PM
I would ASSUME if we went back to 2013 and they Decided you know what we DONT need to Answer LV-426, we DONT need to show the Xenomorph, lets keep the MYSTERY.
Then i would Suspect that the Sequel would STILL had been more about David i would still think by the climax of a Sequel that Dr Shaw would have been Curtains.. either by Self Sacrifice, at the Hands of the Engineers (in which Case David would seek Revenge) or David would become the Antagonist and be responsible for Dr Shaws Death.
I think we would have go more Answers about LV-223 that could make us Conclude more about LV-426, as well as more insight to the Engineers, i dont think Dr Shaw would have got the Answers she Hoped for... and that David would have Unleashed/Created HELL! its a Question of would this had been as a Savior or a Slayer. It is likely he would have still eventually wanted to become a King/God.
I think Fans would have rather seen Prometheus 2 go Steer Away from giving us Xenomorphs and Answers to LV-426 as intended than to U-Turn with a Plot and Set-Up that the Path to the Xenomorph on LV-426 is via the Hands of David.
Quite a Pickle we Find ourselves in now.
Jun-10-2020 8:39 AM
I had discussed this Alternative Idea a few Years ago but i had today put it in Reply to Thoughts_Dreams Comment on another Topic.
"Instead of David returning to LV426 or LV223...How about he starts finding derelict Juggernauts on his way to Origae?"
I think Discovering a Floating Engineer Ship would work as a Avenue to make another ALIEN movie... it beats going back over and over to the Derelict ;)
Regarding the Covenant becoming some kind of Alien Hive that could be a Potential i had discussed a PLOT like this Years Ago, where David had Conducted Experiments and they GOT out of Hand and he Quarantined Parts of the Ship before he was Attacked and Disabled...
Years pass by and the Covenant arrives in the Orbit of Origae-6 and the Covenant Begins to Open up some of the Colonist Cryo-Pods... the Few Colonist awaken and discover the Ship is Lockdown and Override Controls to OPEN up to the Quarantined Parts of the Ship where they Discover a Hive Nest and then the £"%^ Hits the Fan
They Discover Walter and he gets them to Repair him, unaware he is David and he Helps them to Gain Control and they together discover either Daniels or someone else, that David then Rescues and the Survivors then Escape in the Loader while the Covenant is Destroyed.
The Lander gets down to Origae-6
The Survivors stumble out to the Surface and Admire the Paradise they were meant to Colonize, Short in Numbers, Walter (David) tells them that they can Re-build, and they have a Advantage over Cave Men in that they have Knowledge.
David tells them that he will Quarantine Daniels for 48 Hours on the Lander, while the Colonist begin to Set-Up Tents as they will start to Plan how to Start from Scratch with Limited Tools.
Daniels awakens and sees David and he says Welcome Home Danny, i told you we will Find Paradise, she looks out to the Surface of Origae-6 and she Screams... this Alerts a Colonist who goes to inspect and asks Walter whats up, Daniels Screams its NOT Walter... David goes after the Colonist and kills him, then goes to Daniels and says it wont be Long Now, my Queen...
Then other Colonist turn up and Manage to KILL David..
We end up with some of the Survivors Comforting Daniels.. before she STARTS to go into Shock..... she then Chest Bursts and we see a Queen Burst Out..
The Credits Roll!
This was a Alternative Sequel idea i Proposed a Few Years back for those who would NOT like to go to Origae-6 and see what kind of a World that David would Create.
Jun-10-2020 4:29 PM
"....the Sequel would STILL had been more about David.."
I think David is very easy to write for?..he wants to visit alien graveyards, wants to create space monsters.
Humans? (Ripley, et al.) You have to conjure up a cliche reason they are continually walking into the monsters house.
Why did Ripley return to LV-426? The story demanded it! The David character has no such problem?...the audience would buy into just about anything.
Jun-10-2020 4:39 PM
Also having trouble envisioning a return to a forested planet like Origae 6....Back to back movies with the exact same planet? Would just seem odd.
Maybe have some nearby gas giant in the sky or the star creates a different sky. Still.....Planet 4 and Origae 6 sound the same?
Jun-11-2020 2:32 AM
it dawned on me. Maybe david has not been turned off. You can see that
David was damaged in the back by Walter and could not move. He could
convince Walter to his side and also gave him the access code to David
and gave him embryos. David continued his experiments. Maybe he didn't
fly at Origae 6, he just told the company. Maybe the engineers
returned to planet 4, saw what David did, took the eggs on the
croissant and decided to lay them on LV 426 in a safe place. Or the
eggs were not the only face hunters got onto the ship. Space Jockey
could have been a very old engineer, a few who survived the race. He
was very old, he had no legs anymore, so he had to exist glued to the
chair and be a biomechanical being. When traveling to LV426 or to
Earth, we do not know whether it was enough for him to kill David or
revenge on humanity, david also cared about it, so they could come to
a covenant and bring eggs or pathogen to the ground together, but on
board was a hunter of the face, attacked the old an engineer, he
defended himself, killed himself and acid blood gnawed the deck up to
the hold. The second hunter of the face impregnated Jockey and the
queen was born from her breast, who laid eggs in the hold. Space
jockey died but before that he managed to sound the warning signal.
David escaped, and decided to send a signal to the Yutani company that
he found an interesting life form. It could also be that David or
Walter somehow hacked the computer system and adnroids. He unpacked
Asch and told him to bring an alien to the ground.
Jun-11-2020 10:38 AM
I suspect in Part that Davids Story would just be a Re-Telling of what those Engineers on LV-223 had done..
It seems that David saw the Engineers had Great Potential in their Tools/Technology but what they had done with them had NOT lived up to the Potential.
He would look at Mankind as a Creation of the Engineers that really is NOT as Superior to the Engineers, and YET in a Ironic Twist these In-Superior Humans had Created a Being that is Superior to its Creator (David).
The Engineers had taken the Eye off the Ball and Failed to be able to Control their In-Superior Creation and so they began to Conduct Experiments on Horrors to Quell/Destroy their Wayward Creations and again the Engineers managed to FAIL with that, in Creating something they could NOT manage to Control.
Call themselves GODS... i think David would be thinking, he maybe learned about their History and Realized that in Thousands and Thousands of Years then Mankind with the Engineers Secrets/Knowledge could have been on PAR with their Creators.
But with such Secrets and Knowledge we see that David feels he can SURPASS both of those Mortal Species.
David would have seen and Experimented and Studied these mere Ancient Humanoids, he would see more Similarities with them to Humans. He would also know of the Experiments on LV-223 and see the Evolution that could come from the Pathogen, the Beasts/Horrors and the Potential they had.
And he had gone on to PROVE that he could do his own Genetic Engineering and Create a Horror more Superior... his WOLF!
This is the CROSS-ROADS we are at.... does he just Continue to Perfect his Wolf and lay Plans to Unleash it on the Galaxy?
Or having Proved to himself that he could Create something more PERFECT than the Engineers had attempted on LV-223 does he NOW try his hand at seeing if he could PERFECT the Human Form/Creation?
I Suspect he will USE the Embryo's and Create his OWN Version of Humanity, he will attempt to Pass himself off as their Creator/God......
I think that the Discovery of WHO it is that David really is (Created Servant of Mankind) and these Star-Children if you would Discovering their Origins are from Humanity... that the Seeds for Rebellion and Sewn...
David then Faces similar Problems with his Creation as the Engineers did with theirs.... and so David would have to Unleash his Wolf on his Lambs!
The Engineers will Turn up to Origae-6 and Witness what David had Created, both the Star-Children and Davids very own Starbeast... and i think this is the SET-UP for another Sequel where Davids Experiments/Wolf and a Engineer Ship will leave Origae-6 and go back to LV-223... Where the Final Chapter of the Prequel will Commence....
It will END with Evolved Wolves of David being Stored on the Derelict as it then Begins its Journey... before things go to POT! and the Rest is History.
Would we see such? I doubt it... Have it Interpreted the Plans Accurately or completely off Base? Who knows..
We will ONLY know if RS chooses to SPILL the Beans of what he Planned and i think we would ONLY ever see that... IF the Prequels are CANNED... or if RS is allowed to Continue.
Jun-12-2020 9:11 AM
i noticed that during the battle of two androids in the Covenant at 1:33:00, later at 1:33:43 Walter stops, he is uncertain, he thinks about something, then there is the shot of the ship and the square, and Walter does not escape from the cathedral. only at 1:34:00 he runs out of the cathedral, it is not known if he killed David, apparently in 1:33:43 he stopped and turned back. decided to go to David's website and take the facehugger eggs. only human xenomorph chases them. david is either paralyzed or Walter or Xenomorph killed him or lives u got on the planet.
Jun-12-2020 10:10 AM
Agree. If it's David - why did he stop? Why does he look back? Why is there an expression of uncertainty and doubt on his face? Just like: "Did I make the right choice? Did I do the right thing?" Why does he have exactly the same scar as Walter? The answer can be found in the novelization from Alan Dean Foster?
Aug-18-2020 5:20 AM
I still have not read the NOVEL yet, but it seems that some of the NOVEL are just things that ADF has added to match what he would have liked to had seen in regards to the PLOT etc
The Drafts i have seen for Alien Covenant support more what we see in Alien Covenant rather than what is in the NOVEL.
But alas for some there was Ambiguity in regards to WHO is Walter, but Ridley Scott had indicated it was David... if it was Walter then we have to ask HOW did he Forget about the Cabin on the Lake and WHY would he Speak a Few Times with Davids Voice? It makes NO sense for Walter to Impersonate David.
HOWEVER......... i have discovered maybe a FLAW or NOT!
Having watched the Last Scenes of David and Walter, it seems CLEAR that Walter has NO SCAR until after the FIGHT and so when he rescues Daniels from David we see he has NO SCAR and so IF we see that David has a recollection of Walter prior to when the Fight Started...
He would notice that Walter as NO SCAR this means that NONE of the Covenant Crew had seen Walter with a SCAR and so there would be NO real reason WHY our David would have to Replicate the SCAR.
It could be that he has a FUZZY memory of some Events prior and so he felt its BEST to be SAFE and Replicate our Walters actual Appearance and Injuries at the Point that he was INCAPACITATED.
But this Little Detail i missed before does make the DEBATE more Ambiguous again. I think that THINGS can Change and while something is Ambiguous it is OPEN to be Explored either way.
But i still think if we look at the PLOT then the WHOLE premise of Walter being a Doppelganger for David has to be for the Plot Convenience to ALLOW for David to Escape with the Covenant and Charade as Walter.... it was the Plot Device to allow for the Switch-a-roo.
Regarding the LOOKING BACK then this would be David/Walter looking back with Caution/Concerns about IF the Walter/David is really Incapacitated. I think it FITS more with David being Concerned because he had ALREADY thought he had Incapacitated Walter after the JUDAS KISS.
Another reason for Looking Back could be in regards to the Xenomorph that soon Follows.
Aug-18-2020 1:48 PM
For better or worse, I am continuing on my ideas and approach with the ALIEN and it's origins, as well as exploring more about the Engineers (based on what little we do know about them).
That said, it's a BIG Galaxy out there, many mysteries and things that't challenge Humanity's understanding of itself, it's place in the grand scheme, and survival.
I have plans that will address the origins of The ALIEN as well as the Purpose and reason behind the Juggernaut on LV-426. If I'm lucky, hopefully some of you in the fanbase will appreciate this direction and 'backstory'.
For those of you who are not fans of David, rest assured that it has absolutely nothing to do with David at all.
There's also other questions about the creations of man, and how they will change things in the galaxy--as well as possibly challenge the existence of their 'Parents'...or perhaps not, there's always strange ways things can go after all.
The Title and Belt of 'Perfect Organism' is up for grabs, ladies and gentlemen, the galactic stage is being set, the lights are coming down.
There can be only one winner in this bout.
Aug-18-2020 3:22 PM
"That said, it's a BIG Galaxy out there, many mysteries and things that't challenge Humanity's understanding of itself, it's place in the grand scheme, and survival."
Also i think its Interesting to see others come up with HOW they would have given the Prequels their own Spin on things, so i look Forwards to seeing what Ideas you had ;)
I did work on my own in 2013 but i lost some and other Problems with having Multiple Ways to Branch Certain Aspects that i could not CHOOSE which i prefer and which would cause less Conflict so i Abandoned them.
It was TWO Parallel Prequel Paths that would JOIN by Virtue of something latter but to be fair it was Quite a LOT to do with A.I so maybe would NOT have been everyone's Cup of Tea!
Aug-18-2020 4:11 PM
You are far more cerebrally able than I am--were I to try what you attempted my brain would end up like taffy in an overdriven taffy-pull machine!!
I applaud your efforts!!
I like to think someday you might pick it up again, maybe find a better way to pursue it that allows you to get it to completion. I have my fingers crossed for you!
I am seeking to 'align' things--as best possible, and it gets harder every year. But, I didn't ever expect it to be 'easy'.
ALIEN: Covenant really threw a box of monkey wrenches into my plans, hence why I am going to complete and publish the short story 'ORIGINS' as a way of getting my 'balance' back, then tackle the ALIEN: Manticore sequel I promised.
ORIGINS will give folks some food for thought about the Engineers, and the Big Chap.
The ALIEN: Manticore sequel connects to ALIEN: Isolation as I consider that game to be really the only Genuine 'sequel' to ALIEN...and hell, it's more 'movie' than game.
With a sequel of mine connecting to ALIEN: Covenant, there's some Plausibility issues and all manner of other wrinkles to find a way of ironing out--also it's going to be a bloody big project given the plethora of elements involved.
In the meantime, sometimes to meet the truly ALIEN...you need look no farther than across the dining table. ;)