ignorantGuyChestbursterMember900 XPApr-19-2018 12:29 PM
Well, what I've get from that article Sir Scott was talking about the first Alien movie and how the found Giger and his paintings and how they could not pass those on in the late 70s. He was not talking about now, so the beast is still cooked.
But for me that article has other problems, like talking about how much he likes history but his historical movies are not the most accurate things (turkeys in Spain before the discovery of the Americas, etc...). And there is the woman empowerment issue.... In Covenant if you want to you are determined to find out stuff you are killed off and replaced with someone who looks more like Ripley (says stuff that Riley said) and her motivation is to have a cozy cabin by the lake with her husband (thank the mad android for prevent such a life of boredom).
ryanrockitOvomorphMember27 XPApr-19-2018 2:47 PM
Not sure what you're getting at about the "woman empowerment issue". Yes, Alien broke the mold by putting a woman in the action star role. Now we had new female characters in Prometheus and Covenant but they were hardly the same ass-kicking Ripley. Both fought for their lives along with their male counterparts, and owed their survival to the android. Its no more ridiculous than a male as the protagonist.
RickTOvomorphMember51 XPApr-19-2018 3:38 PM
I'm not sure what the article is saying. RS can speculate as much as he wants. I don't think he'll be steering the boat next time around. I like both Prometheus and AC though they were not great. I'm not looking forward to David going mad scientist mustang on the ~2000 colonists on Covenant. We need fresh writers and a director or let's call it done before it gets worse.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPApr-19-2018 5:41 PM
I think i summed up what has GONE wrong and against the Xenomorph in the Alien Franchise HERE
We do get the odd moments of RARE Original Ideas. but more Rarely do any sequels do any justice and just degrade the Originals.... I can loose count of the Movies that where some what interesting that the Sequels did not good with, and especially once we get to the 3RD movie never mind more and even Prequels and Reboots often CAN-NOT better the Original or save a Franchise that has churned out 2-3 sequels.
I could mention the Robocop Franchise, Terminator... you name it but once we enter the 3rd Movie it goes Pear Shaped.... but the Alien Franchise has not done so bad.... i would say Alien Resurrection and the AVP movies it went Pear Shapped.... Prometheus tried something else and was not so bad... Alien Covenant tried to go back to the Xenomorph with not so good results.
You get those ONE OFF Movies, you get those ONE OFF Franchises.. i think Star Wars was GREAT... the Prequels So/So but EP 7-9... well NO COMMENT! But they did well with the New Generations and introduced a NEW more Popcorn Marvel/Harry Potter kind of take on the Star Wars Saga...
Could this be whats needed now? a NEW Aliens for the New Generation? but would it work? Because Robocops Reboot was meant to Re-introduce us to the Franchise as far as Nostalgia and to get a NEW Generation interested... but it failed... despite in My opinion being better than The Robocop Sequels.
Sometimes you DO come across something MAGICAL and we have to ask is it better to leave it ALONE?
Take E.T what a MOVIE!!!! but if we ended up with ET 2, ET 3 then really what more could they do with a ET 4 or ET the Prequel or ET Reboot?
Chances are you will NEVER live up the Original and instead Tarnish it.
So the beast has been cooked so to speak, but the Franchise had expanded beyond the Xenomorph... Prometheus opened that up.... but then Alien Covenant seemed to close that off..
The Question now is are people willing to see more about David and Less Xenomorph or can they give us more Xenomorph and bring the beast back in a different light or make it as AWE inspiring as ALIEN?
What about the Humanoid Engineers can they be rescued and brought back and made to be as AWE Inspiring as the Prometheus ones never mind the Space Jockey Scene in Alien!
So its very hard to do any of it justice..
RS was saying how iconic the Xenomorph WAS... i am sure he feels disappointed at how it is NOW seen compared to how it ONCE was and how he envisioned how it could have became.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPApr-19-2018 5:55 PM
I think the Big Problem is ANY movie set in the ALIEN universe will by most be associated with Alien and Aliens, deviate too far from the Xenomorph while remaining within the Franchise will Alienate (Pun intended) some of the Core Fanbase, while also making a Franchise confusing to those who are not really into the Franchise but then either Can-not make any connections... or feel the Prequels have NOTHING to do with the Original Franchise.
I would say 80% of the Public who go to the Cinema 2-3 times a year WOULD Recognize the Xenomorph.. to some degree.... i would say the same % would NOT KNOW about the Space Jockey, the Derelict... never-mind showing them the Engineers.
The Alien Franchise WILL ALWAYS be associated with Eggs, Face Huggers, Chest Busters, Xenomorphs and Queens... but also RIPLEY and not so much the Derelict and its Pilot... which is WHAT RS felt was more interesting.
Prometheus could have been a interesting Stand Alone Movie... if the Weyland Company was replaced with a different one, the Engineers and suits and ships had NOTHING to do Aesthetically with the Space Jockey and Derelict. It could have spawned some decent Sequels..
But alas as it was set in the ALIEN Universe but was not ALIEN enough, it bugged some fans and so we got the more Alieny Alien Covenant instead that does not use the Xenomorph well, lacked the Alien Horror, the Aliens Action... and threw the Engineers out and only continued with David/Weyland Arc as far as Philosophy was concerned.
Now the Beast is even more Cooked, and people are sour on the whole David Arc... and they have Written themselves into a Corner... its going to take something Special to pull off another 1-2 Movies that can get the Franchise back on Track.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPApr-19-2018 6:12 PM
I can understand about asking what makes a Franchise Great?
Imagine a New Back to the Future Franchise.... would it work with NO Marty or NO Doc Brown? Would it work with them in it but replace the DMC DeLorean with what a Time Traveling Toilet lol or a other Object rather than a CAR?
Thankfully the Alien Franchise has more scope than that.... take out Ripley and Queens and you still having something else to play with, take out the Xenomorph and it appears to be a different matter. The Xenomorph to Alien was what the DeLorean would be to any future Back to the Future movies. You could replace the Delorean with another Model of CAR but the concept has to stay similar (Gadgetry that transformed a DeLorean DMC into the Time Machine).
THIS is where the Alien Franchise had entered a Problem prior to the Prequels... The Prequels opened up to explore the Space Jockey and Derelict with the Xenomorph maybe being a side note... that played a bigger Role at first but toned down with the Rewrites (Prometheus)
Prometheus laid so much Scope and Groundwork, that Alien Covenant had undone... the Mystery of the Engineers had been just as swiftly if not more undone than the Mystery around Snoke in the new Star Wars Movies.
Again EP 8 came out of complaints regarding EP 7. just as Alien Covenant arose from the complaints about Prometheus...
Maybe sometimes GOOD IDEAS should be put before, the general and majority Fan Reaction..
Critters5FacehuggerMember299 XPApr-20-2018 5:49 AM
Personally, I just think RS is senile at this point and doesn't really know what he is saying or doing...
Critters5FacehuggerMember299 XPApr-20-2018 5:53 AM
After they do a finaly prequel film I think they should go with an Alien Isolation plot and take the story somewhere different in the future with new species like the Engineers just more non-human.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPApr-20-2018 9:34 AM
I think RS had larger plans for the Franchise... it is almost certain the Xenomorph had become something that he would not have shown, had he been able to release his own ALIEN Sequels prior to ALIENS.
He saw great scope with Prometheus to explore the Space Jockey Race more and maybe throw in some Starbeast Elements to what ever Plans he had as far as Prometheus Sequels had been concerned.
It appears FOX had made him change plans to appease Fans who wanted the Xenomorph Origin Answers, Wanted to see the Space Jockey Event down the Line and then also to introduce Xenomorphs in all their Stages into the Next Movie...
Where the Xenomorph Origin and WHY/HOW/WHEN would be explored more and Literally shown as far as Chronological after Prometheus 2094 and prior to Alien 2122 it appeared FOX Felt this is what Fans wanted.... Xenomorphs and how they came to be and how they are connected to the Black Goo... and maybe following Dr Shaw for her Answers and Exploring the Engineers was something that maybe Fans were not interested in?
But RS was a big fan of the Philosophy in Prometheus, especially the Creation/Sub Creation and Rebellion Themes and the Hubris involved, and he was also a Fan of DAVID from Prometheus who was the STAND-OUT Character/Aspect of Prometheus.
And so RS must have agreed to bring back the Aliens... but he wanted to maintain his DAVID Arc as a Central point to the Franchise, and it would appear any ideas of showing David wishing to play GOD and Create his Own Xenomorph like Monsters... had been Evolved to making David the Actual Creator of the Xenomorph itself.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPApr-20-2018 9:36 AM
By " it is almost certain the Xenomorph had become something that he would not have shown"
I mean its likely had RS made the Alien Sequels then the Xenomorph would have been explored and evolved in a different manner to what it had became in Aliens and on-wards.
Critters5FacehuggerMember299 XPApr-20-2018 10:03 AM
Yea for me its just such blown potential. The Starbeast idea and an expanded Engineer lore (with non-humanoid Engineers) would have been exactly what I wanted. Even if we only got pieces of the Xenomorph. David is so overdone and so boring.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPApr-20-2018 5:28 PM
I think a number of disappointments with Prometheus and Alien Covenant more so, was the Portrayal of the Engineers as the Space Jockey Race.
Some fans felt it was a Skeleton and some Elephantine Race.... and while YES in Starbeast the Giant Race whos Skeletal remains were discovered by the Humans coming to investigate this Giant Races Beacon... We have to remember when HR Giger came in to design the Space Jockey it clearly was not completely a Skeleton.
This was the Concept and indeed we can see it appears to be more a Bio-Mechanical Exo-Skeletol being.... or a Suit, rather than a Skeleton.
Another Problem was the Size, the Space Jockey was intended to be 27" Tall/Long, but the Actual Prop was 16-17" Long (including the Chair) which meant the Actual Space Jockey would be 13-15" Tall... which is the Height the Prequel Drafts intended for our Engineers.
But anyone can see the Space Jockey looks a bit different to the Engineers Suits, the Derelict looking more Organic than the Juggernaught and also the Engineers certainly are not near 13-15ft Tall.
So there is scope to introduce another Race that are Taller and their Ships are more Aesthetically like the Derelict. And so a Race that are 13-15ft Tall and more Alien Looking but still have the Space Jockey as a Space Suit.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPApr-20-2018 5:58 PM
I intended a post at Easter but i have had some problems and could not start/finish it so i will be doing so hopefully on Alien Day... where i will propose something more at the Top of the Hierarchy that will bring something more ALIEN and very connected to the Alien Poster and the Prometheus Mural but as far as the Door/Mural Frame and top of the Mural only.
Something that would well be used to explain a higher power behind the WHOLE Creation Elements... Which would tackle some of these Ridley Scott or was it Spaights or Lindeloff? Anyway they said that "they are off to the Planet of the Engineers, but the beings they discover are not Gods, not in the traditional sense, they are far from Benevolent..... but DAVID is bringing Hell with him... what happens if a GOD or Machine get infected"
Ridley Scott had said prior to Alien Covenant.. "You’ve got to go back and find those engineers and see what they are thinking. If engineers are the forerunners of us, and therefore were creators of life forms in places that were possible for biology to function, who created that? Where's the big boy?"
Ridley Scott also proposed about the Big Bang, was it purely a Accident? he then claimed that Steven Hawkings seemed to think not!
So i have had this idea for quite a while now that will introduce the Larger Cog at work in the grand Wheel of the Universe...
CBodilyFaceHuggerOvomorphMember13 XPApr-21-2018 6:35 PM
I think Scott, like many others, has for many years and will continue for years to come, to explore the connections between faith and science... or in my eyes - spirituality and science, this latter of the two being something many Atheists say to have (spirituality/science). I think trying to over define the engineers and even David in a greater sense than how they portray themselves in the movies is rather pointless. Go with what we know and break it down from there - coulda woulda shoulda's aren't going to explain or sum up anything as Scott seems to be saying: we don't really ****ing know what's on the other side of the veil nor we will ever know.
While I would LOVE for Scott to drag out his theories into three to five more movies we have to admit here that (at least as far as we know to date) there is to be only ONE more movie that will connect us to the original. This leaves us very little time for such grandiose ideas on discovering the Universe. I think we are simply going to see how David is able to create the original Alien species and program Mother and future Androids to carry out his agenda... I think it will be the Alien species that destroys David in the end... whatever the engineers part is I don't think it will be much, as Scott simply does not have the time to evolve the story as he originally intended. (I for one loved the engineers and admit it is sad that we won't likely receive enough closure in what their purpose truly is or was).
RickTOvomorphMember51 XPApr-23-2018 8:34 PM
I completely agree. I think RS's original idea of investigating the motives of the Engineers was the driver for everything else. But the train jump the tracks and we're left with a psychotic robot. I loved the Engineers but we got to see so little of them. Unfortunately, we may not get to see much more. I think to count on one movie to tie this back to Alien and for it to be successful is a lot to hope for considering the convoluted trail it took to get here (note all the re-writes and scope changes that have occurred in Prometheus and AC). It would take someone with a lot of ability to fix the boat at this point. Just my opinion.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPApr-24-2018 7:49 AM
A lot of Evolution has happened in Ridley Scotts Alien Movies, from the beginnings with Starbeast to its Evolution to Alien the franchise has continues to Evolve and Change with Each movie certain things are added or omitted. It would be interesting to see what route Ridley Scott would have taken with the Franchise had he been able to had continued with HIS plans after ALIEN.
At various points in time way prior to the Prequels it appeared RS had 2-3 different ideas of what he would have done NEXT.
But even as far as the last time RS may have pondered where to take the Franchise as in a Prequel before FOX Decided to go for a Aliens vs Predator instead... Between this time and the actual Prequel that got the GO AHEAD the ideas have Evolved and Changed while keeping some CORE ideas, from Alien Engineers ==> Paradise ==> to what then became the Final Idea for Prometheus. We see things got changed around a little.... a number of these appear to be down to Executives at FOX wishing to Change/Remove Certain things.... At First it was to make the Prequel (Alien: Engineers) Less Alieny and Remove nearly all Xenomorph connections and Clues.
Then with Prometheus (also during shooting of a few last scenes) in the Edit Room, changes of Directions are changed yet again with Scenes Edited, Removed and New Scenes that Change what could have been a certain Direction.....
Then we had the set up for Prometheus 2, that has been through many changes but at SOME POINT... FOX again decided a U-Turn and to now tone Down/Remove maybe the majority idea/concept of some of the earlier Prometheus sequel ideas and INTRODUCE the Xenomorph and Change the Path to a More Direct set of Prequels to link to ALIEN
It always appeared the Plan was to make ideally TWO Sequels to Alien Covenant... But Ridley Scott Felt they could make another 5-6 movies but i think these would have been a series of Prequels that Branch off from the Alien Covenant Sequels and so WOULD-NOT Directly connect to the Derelict Event. This Event would like be touched on by the Conclusion to the Prequels as in Sequels to Alien Covenant... where these would then OPEN-UP other connected movies to Expand the Franchise.
So it looked likely we would have had the Sequel to Alien Covenant.... and then potentially this branch off to a movie that Directly Connected to ALIEN.... but then leaving the Door open for RS to have the series branch out for yet another Trilogy. His War of the Worlds so to speak
Thoughts_DreamsNeomorphMember1675 XPApr-25-2018 9:23 AM
Unfortunately it goes a lot deeper than the Xeno. Yes they have not dealt with the it that well but it also that they have not had well done human characters and that they have centered the movies around David.
"… a movie he admits he and studio 20th Century Fox made in reaction to criticisms that Prometheus underperformed critically because it lacked the franchises true star; the Alien."
I maintain that they misunderstood the criticism of Prometheus. Look around at the www after criticism of Prometheus you will find many articles that complain about the characters but less that complain that there were not Xeno in it. My opinion is that the monsters were interesting in Prometheus but the characters were bad. The Hammerpede that went down Milburn’s mouth was nasty in that way since it showed the potential of the goo, another part that I enjoyed about the movie.
Another movie centered around David will not get my interest, just no. I would rather watch a movie about the Engineers if it is done right which I think that it can. They need to find the right writers.
The Podcast perfect organism for example said that Fox and Ridley misunderstood the criticism of Prometheus, that there was no Xeno. It lacked because of under-developed characters and things that were left out. To paraphrase Alien 3:
Until they have learned to make well developed human characters we are ****ed
By the way I would totally watch a movie that features a time traveling toilet, it seems kind of Austin Power-ish. LOL!
I think that David was alright in Prometheus but they made him worse in AC although I kind of liked to see the differences in outlook from David and Walter. I am not interested in another android movie, forget that. Alien Covenant could have been interesting but the whole focus was wrong and the writing and execution of the humans was wrong. Yeah he is overdone, back to the drawing-board.
BigDaveDeaconMember10390 XPApr-25-2018 6:07 PM
When Promoting Alien Covenant... Ridley Scott said that removing the Xenomorph and the Clues to ALIEN in Prometheus was in hindsight a Mistake.... Yet after the Criticize to Alien Covenant, RS comes out and says about the he was ahead of the Curve with Prometheus (so actually the Direct Prequel and Xenomorph route was a mistake).
In Reality Prometheus was ahead of the Curve.... but this movie needed to also have had some Alieny Moments and more Clues to Alien... provide Fans a little more Alieny Movie with a little more Clues..
Then allow the Sequel to explore what Prometheus was trying, by doing so with a sequel, and so having the first movie have a few Alien Encounters and a bit more clues to ALIEN... so that the sequel could go and do its own thing.
Prometheus should have been 70% Paradise (Prometheus early draft) and 30% Alien Engineers..... but Hindsight is a Wonderful thing.
EVEN SO.... Rightly as you pointed out while Prometheus had a good plot... the Characters and some Scenes involving how these Characters Acted were Sadly Flawed...
Go back in time and give us 70% Paradise, with 30% Alien Engineers but then make sure the Characters are Good... and Scenes Well Written and make the Run-time a extra 30 Minutes and then Ridley Scotts 2012 Alien Prequel Prometheus could have been EPIC.