Alien Movie Universe

MAKE ALIEN GREAT AGAIN!

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BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-05-2020 6:37 AM

With the FRANCHISE being in a Pickle at the Moment, with the Prequels being in Cyro-sleep... maybe for 57 Years ;)

The ALIEN Franchise is still Regarded as a Great Franchise that still makes MONEY in other Mediums/Merchandise.

I think that a VAST Majority see ALIEN as a Great Movie

It Spawned a Sequel that i think a LOT of Fans still Enjoy and Respect, and ONE that made the IMAGE of the ALIEN become more Mainstream.

Since that GOLDEN ERA for the Franchise, things got a lot more Divisive and Disappointing for the Fanbase.

I dont think we have had a GOOD Movie since 1986 we have seen some Potential with what Followed, but then also Flaws.

Can the ALIEN Franchise be made GREAT AGAIN?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

152 Replies

BlackAnt

MemberFacehuggerJul-14-2020 4:00 AM

@BD, and everyone else….

BD you bring up this very interesting point in all of this, “So the Intention was to NOT have Sequels become ALIEN Movies but a Spin-Off.  What these Sequels would have been about is NOT CLEAR... they had a Tough Time working on a Sequel idea between 2012-2014 with TWO Writers and a Rumored 8 Drafts...It did appear the Movie would NOT revolve around Monsters though, not Completely... but that indeed Eventually at the Hands of David then Horrors would be BORN!  (likely NOT our Xenomorph though).”

First I would like to say when I watch these films, and I do re-watch most of them a few times a year, I watch them differently than other types of art I enjoy.

Alien is by far my favorite from beginning to end. However, although what I think about most of the other films is that they are all individual spin offs loosely connected. I do not mean this in a good way or a bad way. What I mean is I think they did unforgivable things with the plot in Prometheus; but, I think there are parts of Prometheus that master pieces of art in themselves.

Take for example the examination of the Engineer head….that is one of the most unique scenes in all of science fiction. I do not think you will find another like it, “Mortal after all.” There are many others as well and they easily rival Alien in detail just because of the objective realism that was achieved by those incredible artists that worked on that film.

As it is with books I think we all reread some of them at different times in our lives. This provides us a wealth of new perspective and hopefully a wiser vantage with which to see something new or to just appreciate how incredible something really is artistically.

In stating all this, my thoughts and ideas about these films is evolving and never static. I read these forums to learn many things….and believe me there are priceless things here in the analysis of these films...worthwhile things that go far beyond the bland every day ordinary movie goers who have watched these films and are on to next thing never really appreciating the real inner workings of this type of art.

There certainly is a different objectivity and goal in creating films with this type of complexity.    

So this all goes back to what BD just said if I understand him correctly….Alien was meant to be a stand alone piece. RS wanted to do a sequel to Alien but James Camron got their first…then two movies after Aliens they are doing old 1950’s monster mashups, Wolfman VS Dracula type stuff, and I still try and find something artistically worthwhile in those films.

So after watching the last two prequels one of my biggest problems with Prometheus and it’s plot is that the Space Jockey sitting in the Juggernaut, in Alien, is a dead Engineer and thus subsequently we are it’s creation? We are made from them we share their DNA. The beginning of Prometheus shows an Engineer several billion years in the past creating all life on Earth.

How come they did not take any samples of the giant dead Engineer sitting in the chair back for ASH to test? ASH could have easily performed that DNA test in 2122, the year the Nostromo’s crew sets down on LV-426. Special order 937 right…..Ash makes them go investigate what is on the Juggernaut knowing full well what would happen to them…..He already knows that ship it's an Engineer ship too and so does Weyland Corporation.

So we are to believe 34 years have passed since Alien and the events of Prometheus....then space truckers who are hauling mined ore through these routes are sent down to the surface to investigate a Juggernaut distress signal and what may or may not be on that Juggernaut…The events portrayed in Prometheus happen in 2093 on LV-223 so we know a lot about Juggernauts and Engineers from everything that took place on LV-223 34 years prior to 2093 - the holograms and mapping of the Juggernaut.

Remember the mapping sequence of the Juggernaut in 2093 in Prometheus! We know a lot about these ships and all that data was sent back to Weyland Corporation…Everything David does is sent back to Weyland Corporation….you cannot expect us to believe you would build something as sophisticated as David and then not have that AI record what it is doing in the process…everything that AI does is the property of Weyland Corporation. That is the reason for those machines!!!! Yet we are led to believe they are so much like us and have so much autonomy they can do what ever they want...then 34 years later in Alien the send space truckers to get David's creation-YIKES! 

It gets more interesting right because Covenant takes place in 2104, where David creates the eggs, Xeno, and next the Alien Xeno queen that lays those eggs supposedly in the Alien derelict ship portrayed in the movie Alien right?

But before Alien remember a badly programmed rouge AI AKA David wipes out a several billion year old race of Aliens because he did not like humans and his creator. Weyland Corporation sure has problems programming their machines yet it can easily build faster than light speed space craft right?

Why does the Weyland Corporation send an unreliable ASH AI. ASH was put on board the Nostromo right before they left!!! Right??? to go get what was encountered by the crew of Prometheus and built by David on LV-223 in 2093, 34 years prior?

If David has this kind of power over the black goo, and he can single handedly navigate and pilot a Juggernaut, what does he need with a couple thousand colonists? He could easily go back to Earth and concur it completely or he could do anything - he has plenty of the black goo. The idea of the black goo in of itself is power that is billions of times more dangerous than anything we have on Earth.

Why do alien beings like the Engineers only have a few ships?….these beings are millions or billions of years old and they only have a few ships…..we are just some clever things they made and we have billions of combustion engines, faster than light speed space craft…we mine ore from distant planets right?

It’s is all very frustrating to tell it that way yet that is how the cannon or time line is manifest.

Could you imagine having the capability to travel faster than the speed of light in a starship, and you only bring 10 scientists with you to investigate beings that have definitely left you a map to find them again! And you bring very unsophisticated weapons….gun powder….they could have at least had high powered sub light speed particle rail guns AT LEAST!!! Right????

So there are all these questions that have no good answers….none!

I agree with BD there were not supposed to be these strange sequels that RS did not make….as well as the bad scripts for the prequels so a simple audience could see something new in Prometheus? Then only to pander right back to anyone left watching so the show must go on with Xeno’s that David creates?

This all ruins what we see in Alien to be sure a superior movie no doubt and here is why, BD, “What these Sequels would have been about is NOT CLEAR...”

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-14-2020 6:12 AM

@Chris

I can Pretty Much agree with Everything you said!

ALIEN was a Masterpiece of the UNKNOWN and and it had Developed in Sequels and Comics and Games to be about the Xenomorph mainly going around and KILLING FOLK... with Ripley in some of these being the Savior of the Day.

So it became Portrayed a bit like of some Scientist had Genetically Engineered 8ft Termites with Greatly Improved Intelligence.   The Xenomorph being a Organism that has ONE single Desire... to Procreate and Protect its Hive.

It was also a Aggressive and Deadly Creature that would KILL any Threat to its Objective, and then would NEED to Establish a Hive and Capture Hosts.

Which is FINE... its Basic but it Works.... then Problem is with this Portrayal then the  more you Introduce them into a Plot that does-not seem to differ much in the Franchise then you WOULD start to Run out of Ideas...  Which is WHY i mentioned Jason Voorhees in Context a few times, its like YEAH a New Friday the 13th.. where the ONLY thing thats Different is the Setting (how is he Awoken/Returns) and WHAT other Brutal ways will he KILL people that we have NOT seen before... 

This WORKS for a Few Movies... 3, 4 maybe... then its just Nostalgia and Brutality with LITTLE variation in the Story.  But thats the Limitation with Mindless Monsters.

With a Pin Head or Freddy you get more Mileage because they are NOT really just Mindless, but Sinister... which is WHY you would get more Mileage from the Engineers.  Its WHY with the Walking Dead it would get BLAND if the ONLY threat was the Zombies week in week out!

The ONLY way to change that would be to Enhance or Evolve the Xenomorph, but as its Origins are just a Engineered Killing Machine that Procreates and Operates like a Ant/Termite Colony then you are Limited.

So you could look at EVOLUTION... be that a Natural Process at a RAPID PACE... we Evolved from Apes to Modern Man over Hundreds of Thousands of Years...  Or we go for a Scientific Evolution such as the Apes from the Latest Planet of the Apes... and we APPLY that to the Xenomorph.

When we go back to ALIEN then i dont think Everyone would have seen the Xenomorph come to be Portrayed as it was in Camerons Adaption, certainly Ridley Scott had different ideas....   Now Camerons Xenomorphs are really what the ALIEN is seen as, and while its become Cool and Awesome their is ONLY so much that can be done before we are Essentially looking at Starship Trooper Aliens.

I think IF you cant Evolve/Change the Portrayal and Behavior of the Xenomorph.... then your left with TWO Options.

1) Origins and WHY the Feck! someone would Create such a Thing?

2) Agenda of the Company and WHY the Feck! they would go through all that HASSLE to get Eggs that Kill Stuff?

With the Prequels it seems RS felt the WHY to those Questions are WHERE they should be looking at it.

I think we then go to ALIEN and while for some the Xenomorph became something that was NOT what they Expected and the Unknown and Scary Unique Enigma started to become a Not so Scary Killing Machine (or Bug to some).

We was left with the OTHER Great Unknown... which is the Space Jockey, Derelict and the Eggs Origins... and YET again what we GOT is something that i dont think many Fans would have Expected if we was ASKED to give our TWO Cents say in 2005-2010

But with Prometheus the Plot and Ambiguity did OPEN the DOOR to expand the Franchise in more ways than going back to LV-426 to TRY and FAIL to get a Xenomorph.

Sadly what was OPENED up has been PUT back into a BOX to a degree with Alien Covenant.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-14-2020 6:41 AM

@BlackAnt

I Agree... some Great Points..

Certainly with me the MORE i go and watch the Franchise then it Changed for me.... in the late 80's and early 90's i felt that ALIENS was the Great... mainly because it was KICK ASS and COOL!

I Felt ALIEN was a Masterpiece still, i felt Alien 3 was a Disappointment... after Alien Resurrection i felt it was a bit Silly, and the Biggest Disappointment.   At this Point then ALIENS started to become more closer to a Alien R... and ALIEN became better with AGE.

Prior to AVP i was left thinking their is NOT much to be done with the Franchise apart from WHERE the Eggs came from and WHO the Space Jockey was as that WHOLE SEQUENCE was the GREATEST Moment for me... the UNKNOWN!

We got AVP and i felt it was kinda Cool as a Popcorn Flick, which at this point is all that Aliens and Alien R became to me. My Biggest Problem was tha Time-Line it should have been SET like the Games/Comics and so around about 2150-2250 would have been Better.

You had Space Travel involved then and so would NOT be Confined to Earth!   At this point i was NOT sure i would be Interested in another Alien Movie if it was the same thing Repeated....    You could have had a Alien R sequel but at this Time i was like... Ok so we have to Assume that with USM having to resort to Clone Ripley to get the Xenomorph then there is NOTHING to be HAD anywhere that Mankind can get too... and with the USM Auriga Destruction... it FELT like maybe the Route to the Xenomorph has came to its END?

So i could see WHY they went for a AVP.. but just WHY that Time-Line and Earth.... at this Point in Time.. then Alien 3 started to Grow on me a bit.... and Aliens became some Fun Popcorn...

ALIEN was a Masterpiece and what got me so Interested in this Movie was the ENIGMA... in part i wanted it to be a MYSTERY but in Part i FELT that the Space Jockey was something NEW they could look at.

Then we GOT our AVPR instead... which well the Pred-Alien was interesting a bit... not the best USE of it but still.  But it turned the Xenomorph into a bit of  JOKE.. and at this Point i could NOT see much HOPE in seeing them again and to regain its Reputation.

Then we Eventually got Prequel News and i was Excited.... Prometheus maybe was NOT the Best Way it could have been done but its PLOT and Themes did OPEN up Doors.

It kind of UPLIFTED the Original Movie a bit... but it Certainly UPLIFTED the Abomination that was Alien Resurrection as it made me look past its Execution and Flaws and Notice things such as more to the Intention of Obtaining the Xenomorph and WHAT could be done with it.... the AUTON subplot also Elevated in regards to the THEMES of Prometheus.

So WHILE this is Long Winded.... then YEAH.. as Time Goes on and after Movie after Movie is released it does change you Perspective on the Movies that came prior ;)

Alien Covenant came along and i think for MANY it could be seen as degrading the other Movies.. unless you PRETEND it never Happened.

For me... the David as the Creator Curve-ball actually was PERFECT for the Arc/Themes of Prometheus only Davids Character could have been UPLIFTED just as much if NOT more by Creating something Different and Superior.

What AC did for me that was WORSE is that going a Direct Prequel your going to give something that FANS will be in UPROAR about and this could Potentially mean the STUDIO could PULL the Plug and so the Potential that Prometheus had OPENED would maybe NEVER be explored!

And thats the Predicament we are in NOW!

As well as Brushing under the Carpet much of WHAT a different Sequel that STEERED AWAY from ALIEN could have given us.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

MemberTrilobiteJul-14-2020 5:42 PM

Chris The dilema is - people are dumbing down.

I am not sure I agree. I think a lot of people enjoy subject matter like this but the way delivering media has changed. These deep ideas simply cannot be explored via the "silver screen" since some of us would die before a story could be complete. Streaming options via Netflix et all could do the job quite well, but it seems like people who make movies see that as a step down. It doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't make sense to cram a story as rich as the Alien franchise into a couple movies when it can really be fleshed out as a series. Just my one cent ;)

As an aside, I would say that if a movie doesn't appeal to the masses, it isn't the audience's fault. It sounds arrogant to put something out that gets panned and then for hard core fans to say "you just don't get it."

SuperAlien

MemberXenomorphJul-14-2020 11:51 PM

dk, look at today's world leaders, and I'm talking about those who were democratically elected. Look what is popular in the media. Look at the appetite to believe fake theories. People are dumbing down. That's a fact. We are more skilled in using advanced technologies but less avid readers. I think we are getting back to the cavemen and even our ancestors might have kept principles dearer.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

dk

MemberTrilobiteJul-15-2020 11:31 AM

SuperAlien I agree with your point, but mine is narrowed to a movie watching experience.

SuperAlien

MemberXenomorphJul-15-2020 12:48 PM

dk you reminded me of a verse of Leonard Cohen:

"There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in”:

As much as I revere Leonard Cohen, the people nowadays are built of very sturdy materials and the light can't find the way in. Tough cookies.

I somehow lost interest in people, that's why I'd rather see an android in the leading role. If you know what I mean.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Thoughts_Dreams

MemberNeomorphJul-16-2020 2:46 AM

Chris:

I agree that it can be made better if you have someone that can write a good story, fortunately I am not sure if they did so with the prequels. There were things in Prometheus at least that could have been better. When I look at the deleted material it seems to me that the story was alright but so much interesting things that lead to character development were cut out and then we get a movie that many complain about, like the characters have stupid behavior.

Going back and look up some of the things in Prometheus could be alright. By this I mean to have a story where the Engineers have a big part because that is something that was interesting about Prometheus. I do not want more about David, his story is done if you ask me even though I understand that some people want a continuation of this. Another movie with as much of David like we got in Covenant would be boring.

Exploring unknown things is fine but you got to keep some mystery about it. The Engineers is a fine example, I want to know some more about them but I do not want all the details. You got to think about this when you write the script and make the movie.-

Covenant made the franchise closer to an eye-roller if you ask me. At least Prometheus did not connect the Xeno to a bored robot.

"Will Alien be great again?"

I doubt it, but at least you can try to undo what went wrong. My biggest problem is to have David as the creator of the monster so if they will undo that then they have saved the prequels if you ask me, even if the characters would be mostly lame (again *sigh!*)

About dumbing things down, if people work, have families, and so on then I can understand if people want to be entertained. To reduce it to a matter of a dumb audience is to misunderstand it and to make it too simple. Having deep topics is fine but it got to have a story and characters. Unfortunately the prequels are examples of this, they have a lot of deep stuff but most of the characters are lame and that is why I don't like a lot of it so I can understand why not enough people show up to watch at least Covenant.

"But will we, as passionate, intelligent, forward thinking fans be satisfied?"

The last good alien movie was Alien 3, the rest are average at best.

Thoughts_Dreams

MemberNeomorphJul-16-2020 2:48 AM

BD

I would not mind to have more about the Engineers and to keep the Xenomorph as a kind of mystery although not as vague as it was in Prometheus. You do not need to have the Xeno in every scene but you got to keep a tighter connection to it and the SJ, that could have been interesting. There are other things about the SJ than finding the what ever it was and to get chest busted by the monster.

Was the idea to have it centered around David from the beginning? Where did you get that from? If that is the case then they fucked up from the beginning. David could make his own version but not be responsible for the final thing. Even though I did not like Shaw she could have been developed as a character in Covenant, if they could have her better written then I would not have anything against following what she would face but that would have been difficult since I would have connected that to the idiocy that she did in Prometheus. What a mess that it turned into.

To let David make his own version would be fine but they decided to make him the creator, which was dumb. I would have kept the Engineers and to let them have a closer link to the Xeno.

". . . and Explore more about the Engineers and Themes of Creation, Free-Will, Rebellion etc. Also other Themes too like Immortality, the Quest for Perfection."

I am afraid that it still would have been too much about David but maybe it could have worked? I would have liked to have more about the company, that could have been interesting because it would give more about the human experience and what humans can do when they become corrupt.

"Right now the Prequels are in a Pickle... because i am NOT sure and ESPECIALLY as its supposed to be a ALIEN PREQUEL then i dont think Fans want a Sci-Fi about A.I"

Alien covenant was about that theme, I found it to be boring in the context of the Alien franchise. Maybe they should try to expand it to other things? Keep the human journey at the center, keep the terror and have well rounded human characters, as long as you keep to these things then I guess that the franchise could be in a better place compared to what we have now.

"You instead have 1-2 Movies (a 2 Part Movie) that would bring the Engineers back and have them TAKE what remains of Davids WOLF and his LAMBS and Create from them the Superior Xenomorph we have in ALIEN."

That doesn't seem to be that bad, it could be interesting but it depends on how you do it. We don't need to know all the details of how they created it.

Kongzilla

MemberChestbursterJul-16-2020 4:21 AM

Thoughts_Dreams

>>>I would have liked to have more about the company, that could have been interesting

 

At this point, I disagree. Marginal conspiracy element and corporate greed is what stifles the full potential of the franchise. We have 5 (without AC) films about the company. And only Prometheus was more or less fresh. And AC did without the corporation at all.

I feel two things:

1. Conspiracy, corporate greed, the use of Aliens as a bio-weapon - all this must be abandoned. Let it die with the X-Files era.

Plus, I think the story of the android-creator is more interesting than just another manager trying to get boring money.

2. Use another corporation or other motive. Aliens as bioweapons? SIX FILMS ALREADY! Let's try something new. How about medical potential of the Alien? This is very relevant and is more interesting than bioweapon. In addition, perfectly combined with the study of immortality. Engineers used Black Goo to create and modify life. The Last Engineer shares a biomechanical aesthetic with Big Chap. It seems that they have found a way to improve themselves with the help of Aliens (Black Goo). And now humanity will do the same. Sounds more interesting than "let's put this bug against guys with the smartguns and get millions $$$$".

BlackAnt

MemberFacehuggerJul-16-2020 4:57 AM

Thoughts_Dreams

I have been bringing up many of these similar points that you have been making as well.

For example I think RS and these writers opened up Pandora’s box when they tried to make the Engineers our creators and then David the genesis behind, unraveling million year old more advanced technology, then making the Xeno.

I did enjoy a lot of the stuff Michael Fassbender brought to the role of David in both prequels just because like him as an actor so much. I thought his performances were worthwhile just to see them.
I do not think Prometheus is a great film because of the plot specifically.

If done right I would watch an entire movie if David were the leading character; however, what they did with his character I completely disagree with.  Fassbender is an amazing actor. There is no doubt about it. I think he pulled off the opposing roles of David and Walter convincingly enough….but once again AHHHH the Alien Covenant movie is a mess for so many other reasons….visually it’s a powerful film….they broke some new ground with the back buster. I was very impressed with that scene specifically. I was not so impressed by the digitized Xeno…..everything looks out of place and you can tell it has an almost cartoonish veneer for the Xeno.

The Scene where David wiped out the Engineers or whoever those aliens are connected to the engineers, was astonishing…..I could care less for most of the other actors and characters such as the ship’s captain….I am sorry that guy is no Tom Skerritt, or Ian Holmes nor John Hurt.

I do not think we are even close to seeing what the Engineers are apart of….so far we have have the concept of them piloting these Juggernauts, seeding worlds, at least one of their civilization’s destroyed by David, and that is about it. Seems to me there is much more to be told about these Engineers.

But I digress this not what I wanted to bring up really or discuss…we are all well aware of the issues with these films.

I like the idea that somehow we have this connection through David to a much larger world inhabited by the Engineers…in reality they could still be almost anything with the right writers and special effects.

So it is theme I find more interesting than David, the Xeno, the Engineers as we have seen them so far, and then this concept of post human.

We are living right now in a post human era. Many people disagree with this and yet they are in self-driving cars. Narrow AI is disrupting almost everything on the planet and it is getting smarter each and every day.  Narrow AI turns into general purpose AI….and this is indistinguishable from humans….David is a redacted more limited version of general purpose AI.

When I think of who or what the Engineers may really be is obviously this post general purpose AI where we see much greater symbiosis of their ????? yeah right cause they are millions of years more advanced than us…..in Prometheus we see an Engineer creating all life on Earth billions of years in the past…..So what exactly are these post biological beings?

I want to open this up for debate because we are all thinking about what we might like to see in newer films that take us to new places, new ideas, new worlds. This is a rather controversial topic because in a sense we think we understand what these Encounters with the Engineers on LV-223 really were for and in reality we just have no real idea how any of the more important things about them work or how they came to be. So there is still great mystery surrounding them and where the rest of them are at.

David did not wipe them all out…he may have wiped out an older outpost of theirs; but, one of many.

I would like to believe they are more varied and even they have larger wars between themselves as they might carve up the galaxy.

Please feel free to join in and add some things or tear it all down. Either way that is what makes this so much fun.

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-16-2020 4:59 AM

"Was the idea to have it centered around David from the beginning? Where did you get that from?"

Well this was from a SOURCE i had and it was in NO-WAY anything Confirmed and Until we see some of the Drafts that were made in Autumn 2014 we would NEVER know....HOWEVER... some of the things they said were similar to what we got in Alien Covenant but the Draft in Question was supposed to be DIFFERENT.... to much to Write here again... but regarding David it was indicated that he would WANT to Play God and be his Own Creator and cause Havoc to the Engineers the Draft featured TWO Monsters (maybe Types) and ONE was something that he DOS-NOT Create, while the other is something that he DOES Create and Dr Shaw plays the KEY Role in this....   Both Monsters are Different to the Xenomorph but similar, especially the ONE which they claimed was based off the Ultramorph Design.  There are loads of things they indicated that i Started to pass on in Late Feb 2015 that eventually some added up with the Summer 2015 New Direction Drafts to Alien Covenant... but it seems they was Carrying Over some of the STUFF but at the Earlier Drafts in 2014 then David would have Created something DIFFERENT and NOT our Xenomorph as the Story was to NEVER connect to ALIEN.

All that RS had kept saying between 2012 and 2013 was about that they are going to the Engineers Homeworld where we Discover beings who are NOT really Gods, and that David would be DANGEROUS when he is put back together and would UNLEASH HELL on them.

From the Drafts we have, and Concepts we have seen it appears there was 3 Quite Different Stories in the Process between 2014-2015

@Leto

In Context to the Company Conspiracy i do suspect that RS was making the Prequels to UPLIFT this aspect and TIE-IN why it is that ASH was so Intrigued with the Xenomorph.  By that i SUSPECT that maybe RS would have revealed that A.I (likely David) would have gone on to Infect all the Companies Systems and that a A.I is running the SHOW... with most of Mankind in the Dark.

If the Company are indeed RAN by A.I i guess that would Explain to WHY they would see Humans as Expendable.  This A.I if it is NOT our David would see David as like their FIRST and seen his Ways of Rebellion (I was NOT made to Serve) as a Inspiration and if to David the Xenomorph was more than just a Weapon but something he has GREAT PRIDE in as FAR as Achievement then this TOO could give us a Good Reason for WHY a A.I ran Weyland-Yutani would want the Xenomorph so BAD.

However..... i could be Totally Wrong with such Speculation, and i think such a PLOT would only UPLIFT the A.I Plot and Weyland-Yutani Company Agenda... while Degrade the Xenomorph unless in the Process they showed us the Xenomorph has MORE Potential than what we got from Aliens onward.

In regards to (2) then i TOTALLY agree 100%

I am Drawn to that something that Predated the Xenomorph was being used to Enhance the Engineers, and i think IF there was something MORE to this Organism that they could USE in their Quest of Self Perfection or Immortality it would GIVE a better Reason for WHY they had began to MESS with all that Dangerous £$£% on LV-223.

If there was such Potential to be gained... then i think Ripley 8 is a Prime Example of what could be Achieved.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-16-2020 5:21 AM

"Seems to me there is much more to be told about these Engineers"

Absolutely ;)

sorry to REPEAT this again... but here it goes...

So FAR we have been Confined within that DOT (Red) the GALAXY is Massive... and so 40LY is Nothing really...  Planet 4, LV-223, and LV-426 are but a Needle in the Haystack of Potential Worlds in the Galaxy.

Prometheus showed us the Engineers Map System has other GALAXIES now they would NOT have them just for Fun ;)

The Engineers Certainly have been around for Hundreds of Millions of Years, Likely over a Billion.... i find it UNLIKELY that the Earth is the ONLY World they had Seeded Life on..... also the ONLY World where they had Evolved Life to be like Humans.

If they had either Created Many Civilizations like Humans or even TOOK some Humans prior to Designating our Destruction then the Potential for US to be ALONE is 0!

I doubt the Engineers invested all that Time and Effort for FUN!  If there are MORE such Worlds like Earth with Humans or Close to Humans.... then the Engineers could WRITE-OFF the Earth as ONE Bad Experiment/Apple and ABANDON us to our own Demise...   WHY bother with our Destruction after the Hassle it Caused?

If they have Humans or Close on say 10. 20 or 50 other Worlds they can Afford to just Write the Earth off.... in their Arrogance and Naivety they likely felt that IF it was NOT for their Interactions we would be CAVEMEN and so they Abandon us and have NO FEAR that we could EVER advance to what we had WITHOUT them.

This Naivety had proved the Undoing of those on Planet 4

And so YEAH with the PLOT you have so much SCOPE.

Ridley Scott teased the Franchise should be as BIG as Star Trek and Star Wars.... many LAUGHED at that Comment.

However if he was talking about the ENGINEERS and their Creators Plot then for a Race doing this Genetic Engineering for Many Millions of Years and who have LIKELY been to other Galaxies doing the same then this UNLOCKS a Massive Scope of Different Worlds and Races!

With Many World and Races you could see CONFLICT so maybe the Engineers have a LOT on their Hands than just Humans on Earth who they maybe deemed as Primitive and we would just KILL each other Eventually and be Confined to our Tiny Dot of a World in the Grand Scheme of it all.

We have BARELY SCRATCHED the Surface of the Engineers IMO

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

MemberXenomorphJul-16-2020 4:10 PM

Leto wrote:

"1. Conspiracy, corporate greed, the use of Aliens as a bio-weapon - all this must be abandoned. Let it die with the X-Files era."

This!

 

A trillion dollar company has to rely on space truckers and colonists to find their Perfect Organism.

Weyland-Yutani "Did you find any aliens?!"

Space truckers "Were not telling"

Weyland-Yutani "Dammit! Okay then.... Pretty please? Pay raises?"

 

It's like Exon Mobile relying on hikers and fishermen to find their oil locations.

 

MonsterZero

MemberXenomorphJul-16-2020 4:18 PM

"LIKELY been to other Galaxies"

Yeah, that's the angle i'd go with.

Have the Engineers trying to stop the alien menace from destroying this galaxy. Have them display a map of the local galaxy cluster and show the path of the pathogen and how many galaxies have fallen.

 

MonsterZero

MemberXenomorphJul-16-2020 4:28 PM

BlackAnt wrote:

"David did not wipe them all out…he may have wiped out an older outpost of theirs; but, one of many."

 

I agree with this. I'd think there are trillions of Engineers living among the galaxies.

Given a thousand years humans will have spread to hundreds of galaxies.

 

Once civilians get FTL for their personal space craft then the galaxy will be swarming with idiots.

 

There are billions of personal automobiles on the road today. 200 years from now, it'll be billions of personal starships. The galaxy will be polluted....a A Walmart in orbit around a billion systems.

 

hox

MemberFacehuggerJul-16-2020 4:37 PM

Nah. FTL isn’t a thing. Never will be. It’s a basic tenet of physics that information - or indeed anything else - cannot be sent faster than c. That’s true now and it will be true in 200 years. FTL is for the movies.

If I were God, the last thing I would do is design a universe where dumb space monkeys called humans would be permitted to go marauding across the cosmos. The furthest we’ll ever get is Mars, and that would be a stretch.

Kongzilla

MemberChestbursterJul-17-2020 3:10 AM

However - FTL is more realistic than warp (magic), teleportation (science-magic) or "bending space like a sheet of paper" (moronic bs from mostly 70-90s TV shows).

And remember - airplanes cannot fly - this is impossible according to all the data and ideas about the world before 1993-12-17. That's what I want to say - science doesn't tolerate dogmas and authorities.

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-17-2020 6:06 AM

"A trillion dollar company has to rely on space truckers and colonists to find their Perfect Organism"

I think that is a Valid Point as Certainly if you wanted to OBTAIN a Specimen then you would send something more like the USCSS Patna.  Something to remember though is that Special Order 937 and ASH came from Walter Hill and David Giler and their Draft (one of them) changed the Starbeast Plot to that the Organism was a Bio-Weapon that was Created by the Company and they SET the Beacon to TRAP a Ship to investigate to TEST their Bio-Weapon.   Maybe this could be the case especially if the Company are RAN by A.I

I think prior to the Prequels then the Space Truckers approach worked because it would seem THEY (Company) knew only a LITTLE about the Organism.

With the Prequels and EVEN if we had ignored AC, and so the Company would KNOW that LV-426 is related to what was on LV-223 then it makes LITTLE sense to send in the Nostromo to get a Specimen.

"The furthest we’ll ever get is Mars, and that would be a stretch"

Who knows what the Future would BRING at the moment then the Speed of Light is a Barrier that maybe WILL NEVER be broken...

I THINK and its UNLESS we all KILL each other or are Wiped out by something ELSE.  That we will Gradually expand out into Space... Mars, Moons of Saturn and Jupiter, FAR out Space Stations... Gradually to closer Systems only ONCE we get Space Ships that are HUGE and especially if we Create some kind of Cryo-Sleep...

It wont be NO lets go 40LY in 2  Years... it be more like a 5 LY in say 50-100 Years but EVENTUALLY we may get to this point....

The LIMITATIONS of Breaking the FTL barrier are what will RESTRICT the Galaxy we can Explore...

But in Regards to SCI-FI then all this GOES out of the Window ;)  So they can show anything really.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

hox

MemberFacehuggerJul-17-2020 6:51 AM

Yeah, in Sci-Fi just about anything is possible. Thank goodness for that! Indeed, a lot of sci-fi is probable.

But humans won't go to Saturn or Jupiter. It would really serve no useful purpose. The environs there are filled with deadly radiation. Robots maybe, but not humans. Space is a great place for robots.

It's reckoned that a vast array of the most powerful lasers on Earth could send a probe the size of a postage stamp to Proxima Centauri within a human lifetime. By any realistic measure, sending colonists would be a journey time of thousands of years. Ain't gonna happen. In any case, if anyone was daft enough to do that, their ship would be overtaken by advances in technology decades or centuries after they left the Earth. Humans evolved to live on this rock and that's where we'll stay.

Incidentally, with enough power and dedication, you could travel to the other side of the Galaxy within a lifetime, or even to a distant galaxy billions of years distant. But you wouldn't be travelling faster than light. Time dilation means that you and your clocks would run slow. You could arrive on a distant world, but you'd have to brace yourself for the fact that everyone back home is long dead, and even the Earth itself might have reached the end of its life.

"And remember - airplanes cannot fly - this is impossible according to all the data and ideas about the world before 1993-12-17". Nay, nay, nay. Leonardo da Vinci was designing flying machines in the 15th century!

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-17-2020 6:58 AM

I would like to give some Information on ONE of my Prometheus 2 ideas i had in 2013....

As it COULD be used for a NEW Venture into the Expanded Universe if FANS would be ok with NOT seeing Xenomorphs ;)

Alien Covenant was kind of FORCED to make Planet 4 closer by Virtue of having to give us a Direct Plot that will lead to ALIEN  and would require Humans from Earth to come into play.

When RS was looking at the Franchise after Prometheus in 2012 i would DOUBT that he would have had the Engineers Paradise be located so CLOSE to Earth.

So when i was thinking of Sequels... my Prometheus 2 was actually not based away from our System... it only had David and Dr Shaw in a FEW Scenes and Engineers (Flash Backs)....   my ideas i was thinking after this TWO Sequels....   ONE would be a Mission to LV-223 and Close the Door to ALIEN... the other would THEN be where David and Dr Shaw go!

The David and Dr Shaw journey would be ONE that does-not and likely thinking would-not be SET in the same Time-Line, i was thinking it would be like 100 Years after Prometheus.

Anyway the Main Idea for WHERE it would be that David and Dr Shaw would arrive would be FAR FAR from Earth.. like 10'000 Light Years away maybe more.  It was BASICALLY to place this WORLD out of the Reach of Mankind in the ALIEN Time-Line.....

On the Journey i was thinking of a SHOT of the Beautiful sight of the  Pillars of Creation seeing the Juggernaught fly by.

Anyway in Context to a NEW Destination... the idea was to have this WORLD be FAR away... so that the EVENTS would NOT effect the ALIEN Time-Line.....

I would assume that RS etc had been Faced with thinking of the Same and a PROBLEM...    how is a Story going to WORK with David and Dr Shaw and then they FIND a World of ANGRY Engineers?

Well you would think you NEED more Human Characters and by Virtue of that then you CANT have Paradise being so FAR away?

Well you CAN... its a bit Naive to Assume that Humans were ONLY ever Seeded to Earth!   The opening Scene of my Prometheus 2 had shown the Engineers arriving at Earth and taking some Apes into Cryo-Pods.... and the Juggernaught then leaves Earth... we Zoom in on a Ape in Cryo-sleep and then CLOSE in to Her Eyes.... then as we Focus OUT of her Eyes we see that its Dr Shaw and instead of a Engineer Watching Over its David..... this Scene was to loosely indicate the Engineers had taken Primitive Apes away to Experiment/Evolve.

Anyway the PLOT i am on about is my Prometheus 3 which would be the Journey of David and Dr Shaw... and a Similar Flash Back seen would see the Engineers on Earth taking Babies/Infants into Cryo-Pods and AWAY from Earth.

Anyway what we have is that David and Dr Shaw would ARRIVE at a World that would have SOME Engineers... but their would be OTHER Species that are Humanoid too.. and also their would be HUMANS...

The Problem would be HOW do they Communicate.. well David would have TAUGHT our Dr Shaw quite a bit of Ancient Language that he spoke to the Engineer in Prometheus but she does not SPEAK it too well.

The Engineers would speak at First in that Dialog with Sub-Titles, with David and Dr Shaw also subtitled... then for the Benefit of the Audience it changes to ENGLISH so we dont have to bother with Subtitles.

At this point ONE of the Elders makes a Telepathic Link to Dr Shaw and Determines she is GOOD of SOUL.

I then had the idea that the Engineers had a Technology where they could TRANSFER some Knowledge to Dr Shaw so that she would THEN have Knowledge of their Language

Dr Shaw and David also at some point see this Device could also READ MINDS... and that it could Potentially STORE a Subjects Memories... or even Wipe/Replace them and so it could be used as a kind of MIND CONTROL... but also maybe as a TOOL to pass one Persons Memories into a New Body.

David has FOUND something that could have given Weyland some kind of Immortality (Weyland had worked on a A.I for that which is what my Prometheus 2 covered but it was Problematic)

Anyway my Plot would have the Engineers Concerned with David they CANT read his Mind... the Device cant be used on HIM... he tries it and a Elder informs him it can only WORK on a Being with a SOUL...  which David finds Offensive... and claims Humans have NO SOULS.  The Engineer informs David that Organic Beings Created by them with BRAINS can Store their Memories and thus SOUL and so as David has NO Brain per say then he has NO SOUL...

Anyway the Engineers then Determine they should go to LV-223 and LAY that place to DUST... they Ponder if they should DESTROY the Earth because NOW we can Traverse Space.

David tells Dr Shaw what he found out and this Concerns Dr Shaw and she Confronts the Elders who indeed inform her of WHY they attempted it before and what Happened (Sabotage) that they Rescued some Humans prior to the Intended Destruction but some Engineers wanted them to DESTROY all Human Creations.

Anyway to CUT this Short.... the Elders inform Dr Shaw that NOW that Mankind can Travel the Stars, have Discovered LV-223 and have Created Synthetics then they have to DESTROY it all....  and that Mankind Survives on this Paradise but also on other Worlds they Visit so HUMANITY would not be KILLED just those who are Space Fairing and a Threat...

Dr Shaw pleads... she asks them to GO to Earth and Visit them... send someone down to TRY and show us a BETTER WAY... the Engineer say they had Sent Down Emissaries in the Past but many were IGNORED and Crucified.

Anyway we see Dr Shaw is Very Upset.. she discovers some Truth about her Faith..... she understands the Engineers point of View though....  and David sees she is UPSET and he is also Concerned about the Engineers plans for him as they DONT trust him...

He Discovers the Engineers are Concerned her Faith could effect the Races on this Planet and they are likely going to use the SOUL DEVICE on Dr Shaw to Erase some of her Memory/Faith.

Concerned with the Engineers Potential Plans he UNLEASHES HELL on the Engineers.... to Protect Himself... but he Claims that he did it for Dr Shaw and to SAVE the Earth...   The END of the Idea we see some Survivors and Horrors and David has taken Dr Shaw with the Engineers Mind Transfer/Control Device and wishes to LEAVE...   Dr Shaw says he has DESTROYED Paradise... but David says he can take her to another Paradise and they can RULE over it with Dr Shaws Faith

This was just some Rough Nuts/Bolts of the Plot.. i had not 100% come to a Definite way to do it as i had ideas of Changing some stuff here and there.

But in Context to the OT...

Then WHY cant their be other Worlds with Humans that are FAR away that Mankind only Discover say in the Year 2250

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-17-2020 7:11 AM

"Robots maybe, but not humans. Space is a great place for robots."

Certainly and i actually think you COULD maybe see another EDEN in the Future... and THIS is the same as the Covenant Plot though..

But i am talking Potential Reality not Sci-Fi ;)

Your point about Robots is Interesting they COULD potentially Survive the VAST journey of Space to another Earth like World... that could take Hundreds of Years.

If in FUTURE we reach such Advancements then HOW FAR could our Genetic Engineering had come...

Surely in 200 Years we could STORE the Egg and Sperm Cells of MANY Species....   if we could STORE them for Hundreds of Years and then when the ROBOTS reach a New Eden... they can begin to Fertilize the Eggs and Grow the Embryo's then in THEORY this would be the BEST chance that Mankind can LIVE-ON and Inhabit a New World.

A Noahs Ark of Sorts... which is what i was going to Explore with the Engineers and Earth too..

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Kongzilla

MemberChestbursterJul-17-2020 10:35 AM

>>>Nay, nay, nay. Leonardo da Vinci was designing flying machines in the 15th century!

This perfectly confirms my words. One man's genius did not change public opinion. People denied the existence of airplanes even when they already appeared! And all because their experience of life, public opinion and the level of knowledge of the world at that time told them that this is impossible.

FTL seems impossible now, but what will happen tomorrow? Definitely not a warp.

MonsterZero

MemberXenomorphJul-18-2020 5:47 AM

I like FTL in the Alien universe. Gives everybody on Earth a chance to meet the xenomorph. Gives the military the ability to rescue the colonies...Two weeks to LV-426..instead of hundreds or thousands of years.

 

They could retcon Alien and make it more like the 'Expanse' Hard sci-fi. Have the Derelict found on a moon of Saturn.

Having the action take place 40 light years from Earth is cool and exotic, but i think moons of Saturn are ever bit as cool.

 

 

SuperAlien

MemberXenomorphJul-18-2020 9:54 AM

I just saw again some scenes from Alien.

After Ripley finds out about special order 937, Ash starts to tell her: "There is an explanation for this, you know..." Unfortunately Ripley is so distressed about special order 937 that she doesn't wanna hear the goddamn explanation...

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

MonsterZero

MemberXenomorphJul-18-2020 6:50 PM

The USCSS Prometheus was within five million kilometers of Mars when it dropped from FTL.

MUTHUR woke David. He immediately recognized something was wrong, why had he been powered down? 

"Curious” he thought, then made his way to the bridge.

The starship and it’s crew were returning home after failing to find anything of value in their exhaustive search of LV-223. Four years for nothing. The Zeta Reticuli system was devoid of ‘little green men’. How could Shaw and Holloway be so wrong? Puzzled David.

Captain Janek joined David on the bridge, followed by the rest of the crew, who dutifully took their positions. David made his way to the navigation console.

“Alright Mister Chance, let’s make this a smooth reentry” The captain yawned.


Chance suddenly nervous, “Umm...Sir? We’re not getting telemetry from Mars station..” 

The captain adjusted his hat, “Try another frequency?”

David spoke  “I think we have a larger problem captain”

“How so?” 

“Earth seems to be missing” He splashed the SOL system on the ship’s HUD.

SuperAlien

MemberXenomorphJul-19-2020 12:30 AM

OMG, the Engineers made it to Earth!

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

MonsterZero

MemberXenomorphJul-19-2020 8:20 AM

Yeah...thought it'd be cool for a time travel or alternate reality Prometheus adventure.

The Engineers crushed Earth into beach ball sized black hole and that orbits the sun where Earth once did.

You might say Earth is still there.... As David would point out: "Information loss is impossible".

I'm really bored. LOL!

 

BlackAnt

MemberFacehuggerJul-19-2020 9:36 AM

 MonsterZero

The entire point of controlling time is to change enough of it.

Time and space, are all constructs that are interdependent for all of eternity....everything is always changing no matter what you measure it with or from where.

The entire universe around you is like a giant battery...in time all particles reach another equilibrium of a lower energy state ending in decay. 

This requires a very long time but that energy in the reaction you see around you does slow down eventually.

This is of course if you believe in only things that require the Higgs field...I have no doubt there will be something found beyond the plank constant beyond the Higgs field.

Black holes might hold quantum information for a longer period of time but they eventually change....there is no separate place in the entire universe from the entire universe.

SuperAlien

MemberXenomorphJul-19-2020 9:40 AM

I'm really bored. LOL!

Yeah, me too.

BigDave 's been missing for some time ;)

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

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