Hello everyone. I am once again starting a topic on the Engineers. In the recent topics I discussed the potential background story of the Engineers and how it ties to human religion: god vs Satan, Zeus and the Olympians vs Prometheus, in short one faction creating humanity and one faction secretly teaching them forbidden stuff like technology and warfare.
I am putting forward the idea that the Engineers seen in Prometheus are the "good" Engineers and the Engineers we see in Alien: Covenant may be the bad Engineers or somehow linked to the bad Engineers. This is mainly for two reasons:
1) The AC Engineers do look more human than the Engineers from Prometheus. They have a more beige skin colour and human like eyes whereas the Prometheus Engineers have more white-blue skin with black eyes. In the Old Testament and the Book of Enoch there's a story about the Sons of God who came down from heaven and slept with human women. The AC Engineers maybe the product of this relationship - the Nephilim, which means "giants" and was translated in the Septinguant as "gigantes". In AC Rosenthal says to Oram when they see the Engineers' space suits in the crashed ship: "God! They were giants!"
2) In Prometheus we learn, that the Engineers we see in this movie (white-blue skin, black eyes) created humanity and then set out to destroy it. They did so 2.000 years ago, which implies (and RS as well as Lindeloff confirmed this) that it has something to do with Jesus. Probably mankind has strayed from the Engineers path (with the Romans going around, killing conquering and killing) and they, in a last effort, sent an emissary (Jesus) to convert mankind. But they crucified him, which lead to the Engineers deeming mankind a failure and setting out to destroy it (like Satan wanted god to do in Paradise Lost - destroying his creation by himself). If this is the case, then the Prometheus Engineers cannot be on the side of the Romans. Indeed they despised them, which is why the sent the emissary in the first place and opted to wipe out humanity as the Romans crucified him.
We also learn, that some Engineers (the bad ones?) were in contact with humanity over the centuries (secretly?). Surely they did so to teach them (forbidden?) stuff. At least for instance showing them LV-223, which seems to be a bio-weapons facility.
If this is the case, then I think that the AC Engineers must be the bad ones - the ones who visited earth and taught humanity forbidden stuff like technology and warfare. This is because they resemble the Romans in architecture, clothing and rituals. I suggest to watch the following two clips. The first one is from the HBO series "Rome" when Caesar enters Rome triumphantly. The second one is the flashback sequence from Alien:Covenant. Notice the resemblance of the horns blowing, the crowd cheering, the "leading" Engineer on the stairs of the cathedral raising his arm, the resemblance of their town to St. Peter's Square in the Vatican. THEY must have been the ones who were in contact with the Romans and taught them everything.
Caesar entering Rome
David arriving at the city on Planet 4
Well this is a TOPIC that has No Real Answers because it Potentially has MANY ;) it really is Very Open for Debate and its certainly part of a reason i abandoned making my own Prometheus Sequels (stories) due to NOT being able to settle on a single Satisfying Answer to some of the Mysteries, which the Engineers were a LARGE part of.
Maybe we should-not be looking too LITERAL, but certainly that many Mythos and Connections had arose from our Interaction with the Engineers. I was going to START a Topic today that may Conflict with this ONE.. well in Part what it covered can be covered on this Topic.
I think we need to go BACK to the Beginning if you would, the Sacrificial Scene seemed to indicate and RS and others comments also Implied that the Seeding of Worlds was done with Good Benevolent Intentions, or certainly what are Beneficial to the Engineers.
And yet Ridley Scott then said that the Engineers are Aggressive SOB's he also referred to them as like the Fallen Angels. And i have said a Number of Times we maybe need to look at what he meant by this!
Fallen as in Demons as in EVIL, Wicked and Cruel? which is what some look at THE DEVIL as being. Well having them being called Aggressive £!"$£"% and depicting them as having NO LOVE for Mankind could FIT that Bill.
However we also have to Consider that Fallen is also what becomes of those who go AGAINST the Hierarchy (or GOD) if you would. In this Context then you look at the Devil as being a being, a Creation that was Perfect, Sentient to a Degree, who then began to Question as to WHY he and the other Angels should BOW down and Serve God and be Servants... he was Very Arrogant and had Pride in his Abilities which he felt he was being Limited. And so his Rebellion against Gods Rule is what was his First Fall. Does this alone make someone Wicked?
With Mankind you can look at Lucifer as either Deliberately Corrupting Mankind to SPITE his old Master GOD and show that his NEW Creation could be made to Disobey the LORD too. Or you could see it that Lucifer simply saw that Mankind was Created to be another NEW Subservient Species that would be HELD BACK by the Knowledge that GOD would Forbid them to have... would this be Considered a Wicked Act? As far as GODS Purpose and Agenda then it would appear to be a GREAT disobeying with severe Ramifications. And so Considered BAD by GOD.
I mention the above because i FEEL they are a KEY to what is going on with the Various Engineers we see ;)
With Prometheus we had the ELDERS who appeared to look like the Engineer but just more Frail and Old... but as this SCENE was removed (Elders) it maybe means we cant assume the Hierarchy is intended to look as those Elders did.
Ridley Scott had mentioned he removed the Scene as he did-not want to give too much away, and that he did-not want to meet GOD in the First Movie. This could imply that those Elders would either be the Hierarchy/Gods or that he was going to replace them with something that would be the Hierarchy/Gods.
When talking about Prometheus 2 he said that those beings in Prometheus where the FALLEN ANGELS, which implies they are either Wicked/Evil and Deceitful or they had Rebelled against their Creators/Hierarchy. It was likely something between those TWO.
He then had also mentioned that David and Dr Shaw would meet these beings.. who are NOT really GODS! Not in the Traditional Sense and that these beings are FAR from Benevolent. This could mean that they would be seen as more Malevolent, but this could just be HOW we would see them as far as their Intentions with us. (are Mankind Evil because we Experiment on Guinea Pigs and Apes).
If we try and Combine what was said by RS, then it could imply that the World that David and Dr Shaw would arrive at (Paradise) maybe contained beings who were DIFFERENT to our Prometheus Engineers, but who were still NOT really GODS and would be seen as FAR from Benevolent as far as how they would see and act towards Mankind.
This maybe does-not mean the Engineers are Malevolent but that as far as we are Concerned we would Consider them as such. By that i think its easy to Consider the Replicants, would you Consider what the Blade Runners were Tasked with as being Malevolent? If say we see Walter Models become Sentient like David, maybe NOT all of them would be Wicked to Humans... but they would pose a Concern to Mankind and a great RECALL well a CULLING of them would be required.. would that make Mankind Evil?
So its a Tricky Question when dealing with the Engineers, as its such a OPEN kind of Plot.
But its maybe one that makes more Sense IF maybe we look at the Prometheus Engineers more like Lucifer and David and Replicants.
When trying to figure out WHO really are the Bad Guys i think its Very Open... there could be ONE Wicked Faction but then they all could be GOOD/BAD depending on how we look at them and MANKIND.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think when we look at the Reason for WHY we was scheduled to be DESTROYED its another Open Question to a degree, YES at first it in part was NO Coincidence to the Crucifixion of Christ, but then he had said that was TOO on the Nose and that Christ was a Emissary.
If we are trying to look at it in Context to Prometheus etc, then its Pretty Obvious that Jesus is not depicted as 7-8ft and Bald ;) and so likely he was a Hybrid or a Human that was TAUGHT the ways of the Engineers, and sent down on their Behalf.
If you have Created a Sub-Species and wish to Interact with them and Guide them and teach then Limited Knowledge, maybe in Time you would find it Better for some Reason to SEND down beings that look more ALIKE the Humans, than sending down 8ft Members of your Not Quite Human Race.
So there could be MANY such Emissaries, well certainly more than just the ONE. And it would seem as far as the Engineers that they had send down these Emissaries to try and Guide us to a Path or Behavior that the Engineers felt was Appropriate because we had started to Behave in Ways that Offended them, and turning out to be a Civilization doing things and seeing the Engineers in ways that the Engineers had not DEEMED.
We have to assume these Emissaries are Considered Good as far as the Engineers would see them, but then if we consider Prophets and the like, such as Jesus in this Context are seen as doing GOOD for Mankind, then surely the THINGS they are trying to Change in Mankind are NOT considered to be BAD/EVIL.
But after we had Disobeyed the Engineers or/and Offended them and KILLED the Emissaries that were Sent Down to put us back on Track, then this resulted in the ORDER to CULL our Species if you would...
This would have to be seen as these Engineers doing something that is Beneficial to their Species/Ways/Order, but that would seem Wicked and a Overreaction to Mankind.
Again these Subjects are something that can have Multiple Ways to explain and Explore them.
What we do know is the Engineers or Emissaries had Visited Mankind across various Periods and Places in Time for at least 35'000 Years. I think we have to Consider the Prometheus Mythos quite a bit too, rather than be looking at Biblical Accounts by Virtue of the Space Jesus Angle ;)
So maybe we had some Engineers or Watchers if you would who are TASKED with keeping a EYE over us, maybe Teaching us Limited Stuff.... we could WONDER had some of these began to Pass-On Forbidden Knowledge?
Could these Watchers if you would then have been Banished and even Punished for the HARM they had Caused... and the Hierarchy decided to send down Emissaries who looked more Human to TRY and put things RIGHT?
Again trying to Figure Out who the Good/Bad Guys are is something thats Interesting but something that may be HARD to get to the Bottom of.
I will say the Planet 4 Engineers never came across to me as a Malevolent Species. But then Mankind may not be considered likewise... but they may be considered likewise if we looked at Blade Runner as far as how the Sentient Replicants would feel about their Purpose and then how Mankind saw them as a Threat and wanted to CULL them.
Thats not saying Blade Runner and Prometheus are Connected, but just that when looking at the Sub-Creation, Purpose and then attempt to CULL the Rebellion, is something that is maybe at Play on Multiple Levels as far as the Engineers and their Creations ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think if i look more at the Question of is there Good/Bad Engineers.
Then i would say thats likely, Certainly in the Past, but if we are talking about Currently Factions that are Good and Bad then i think thats more Difficult to Conclude. You could have a Country who you would consider are GOOD but they have people who are BAD, as well as GOOD.. this Country could Consider another as BAD, but then this BAD Country could consider the Accusing Country as BAD.
Mankind is both Good and Bad, and looking at the Engineers i would consider that they have become something thats just Neutral if you would. But they may consider themselves Good, but others may consider them as Bad.
We had RS mention that the Engineers are Aggressive SOB's and the beings that David would encounter are FAR from Benevolent, but this does-not make them EVIL. Sometimes there are Necessary Evils for the Greater Good (like you could consider if the ATOMIC Bombs had NOT been Dropped on Japan then in the next 5 years it would be likely MANY more Lives World Wide would have been Lost, including the Japanese).
Ridley Scott always seems to indicate the Engineers as Gardeners of Space and puts a Emphasis on Creation more than the Destruction. He refers to the Sacrificial Act as a Benevolent one.
He calls the Planet 4 Engineers as the Civilians of the Engineers Society and the LV-223 as the Military, and YET the Sacrificial Engineer looked more like the LV-223 Engineers than Planet 4 and this maybe is NOT a Oversight.
so the Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Engineers appear to be the same, they appear Genetically Enhanced for their Purpose.
So they use these Adonis Specimens for Seeding but also to use for WAR... but the Juggernauts do-not look like they are WARSHIPS... they are merely a SHIP that carries Cargo that can be used as a Biological Weapon.
So if we assume that indeed they use these more Enhanced Specimens to Seed Worlds and this is what Creates Life but not Necessary Horrific Life such as the Neomorph. Then this ACT of Self Sacrifice is seen for the Greater Good and BENEVOLENT.
The Actions of the LV-223 Engineers however is Considered to be Malevolent but is it really on the GRAND SCALE?
Provided the Planet 4 Engineers and LV-223 Engineers are on the same PAGE.. then their Actions could be Deemed as Necessary for the Greater Good and so are NOT a MALEVOLENT Race.
But when we are due to be on the receiving END of their Actions, as a Precaution to Eradicate a Threat then from our Perspective it would seem a EVIL ACT.
However Consider this.... it seems likely (as indicated by RS) that WE are NOT the only World the Engineers had Seeded and maybe Created Intelligent Life, this would be a WISE idea for the Engineers. And so if ONE such Worlds Inhabitants are deemed Rebellious, a Threat or a Failure then to Eradicate them, and Start Again makes Sense.
We need to Remember that to the Engineers we could be Considered nothing but Chimpanzees... so lets Consider these TWO Scenarios.
1) Scientist Mess about with the Apes and Evolve them Mentally like we saw in Planet of the Apes, and they also Evolve to be more Human as far as Dexterity (THINK about Planet of the Apes).
2) We are Genetically trying a Bio-Weapon Virus on the Apes, and it shows signs of passing to Humans and getting out of Control. Then some Apes get loose...
If these Apes are Contained say in a Country lets say Australia, and are Considered a Mistake and Potential Threat.
Then our ONLY option could be to CULL them... it may seem Drastic but its Necessary, and we have other Apes on other Continents that are NOT effected so we are NOT exactly going to be Destroying their Entire Species.
What we do to those Apes would be Considered BAD especially for the Apes, but for the Greater Good it is Necessary and so we would NOT be considered as MALEVOLENT for this Action.
But we should then take NOTE and Learn from the Mistake or Face a Future Hubris, especially if we FAIL to CULL the Problem. Do you learn lessons and improve SAFEGUARDS? or do you ABANDON any Future Experiments and Learn your Lesson?
THIS.... is how i think we should look at the Engineers, and in this case they may not be Considered EVIL...
We can be EVIL... we have Created David who we can see has become Evil to a Degree, yet we have Walter who we consider as NOT really Evil.... do we CULL the Synthetics, or Learn from the Mistakes of David, and hope that the Walters never suffer the same Issues.
Would Destroying the Synthetics be considered as BAD? it would if those Synthetics became Sentient like David, as far as how the Sentient Synthetics would deem such a Action.
So with the Engineers and Humanity its similar.
This HOWEVER... does not rule out that at Present of in the Past that Factions of Engineers had their own Conflicts of Interests and are deemed Good/Bad by their Agenda.. we also cant rule out that the LV-223/Prometheus Guys are to the Planet 4 Guys as the Replicants in Blade Runner are to Humans.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"due to NOT being able to settle on a single Satisfying Answer to some of the Mysteries, which the Engineers were a LARGE part of"
Great point but dude, you need to make your Comments shorter^^
Who the "good" and "bad" Engineers are is maybe a question of perspective. My point here is this:
2.000 years ago the Romans crucified Jesus. Ridley Scott didn't mention that in Prometheus explicitly (because it would be "to on the nose") but this is definitely what he had in mind. This crucifixion was obviously not for the joy of the Prometheus Engineers (which is why they tried to destroy humanity) and so they were not sympathetic to the Romans' way of life. But the AC Engineers resemble the Romans so closely that they must have been the ones who taught the Romans how to do business. And so the Prometheus and AC Engineers must be at odds with one another.
This is my point. Who is the god/Zeus/Satan/Prometheus/Annunaki/Igigi party surely is up to debate!
But maybe this is all wrong and the beings on Planet 4 are not an active player at all! David and Walter may mimic humanity and the Planet 4 beings. Like David and Walther are discussing:
"You were too human, too idiosyncratic, thinking for yourself. So they made the following models with fewer complications."
"More like machines..."
Maybe humanity resembles David - the Engineers first try: individualistic, idiosyncratic and with a mind of their own. But quickly the Engineers got scared of us. So they made new models - the Planet 4 beings: more submissive, obedient etc. and they set out to destroy their first creation - humanity.
This is my big beef with AC: You have the Planet 4 beings (Engineers? One of their creations?) right in front of your f*** nose and you learn nothing. Absolutely catastrophic decision by RS in my mind.
I apologize for my Long Posts ;) its hard to keep things short on some subjects and this certainly is one of them.
I think regarding the Space Jesus i think its something we have to NOT try and look at too Literally the Plot seems to be just as much about other Various Mythos as well as the Abrahamic Aspect. And so i think the Emissary take on it works better.
I think its likely the Engineers may have been Disappointed with Mankind prior to the appearance of that certain Emissary and so these were sent down to TRY and Guide us back to ways that appeased the Engineers, but we instead had KILLED some of these Emissaries.
I think the Anger was more so than just the Roman Empire, i think they saw various Civilizations that were not behaving in the way the Engineer liked, they likely saw how much the Culture and Ways of Large Empires had Spread, and Felt that to simply Eradicate a Certain Continent/Empire would NOT be a way to Guarantee that the WAYS of Man that offended or threatened the Engineers would NEVER reappear again.
I think the Plot is to show that a lot of the Architecture/Constructions of Mankind are Influenced by the Engineers. There certainly is a Aesthetic Connection to Planet 4 and some Cultures on Earth in the past like the Roman Empire. I think maybe we have to ASSUME that this kind of Aesthetic Architecture on Planet 4 does predate those on Earth.
I think its so OPEN for debate and Speculation as to HOW FAR they influenced Mankind and IF everything that we was TAUGHT had came with the Consent of the Engineers Hierarchy.
I think in Light of this we have to maybe try and APPLY the Fall of Lucifer and Prometheus Betrayal to the Plot, more so than any kind of Space Jesus plot as per say.
So it becomes a Question of WHO is Prometheus more so than who was Christ in the overall Plot. And this is a Question where we dont have a Definite Answer, but i think we can assume by Virtue of the Prometheus Poster etc that the BIG HEAD has something to do with this.
Some think it represents the Sacrifice of the Sacrificial Engineer and so he is Prometheus but this would not FIT with a lot of the Prometheus Mythos and so i think we cant look to LITERAL and so as with the case of a Space Jesus so to Speak, the intention (well comment) by RS could suggest he was NOT the only Emissary and so when looking at other Single Figures such as Prometheus it could be applied that its not a SINGLE Figure but a it represents a Group.
So this Raises the Question of are the LV-223 Engineers the Prometheus, was Mankind Created without the Consent of the other Engineers, or was we designed for a Purpose but the Promethean Engineers had Taught us more than we was Intended, was this done for Good, or to Spite their own Hierarchy?
I think there are Many ways this can be Interpreted and Speculated, and its something i am sure we would have liked to had seen EXPLORED... which with AC we sadly got No Answers.
I will say there is quite a Connection Between Figures such as Lucifer, Prometheus and Enki likewise maybe between GOD/Angels, Titans/Olympians and indeed Annunaki/Igigi and i think a number of Fans may have wanted them to LOOSELY try and Expand on this in Connection to the Engineers.
When we look at these Various Figures, its a case of do we Consider that Enlil, YHWH and Zeus the GOOD GUY? and so are Enki, Lucifer and Prometheus the BAD GUYS?
You consider the Former to be the GOOD GUYS... but then if you look at the Intention for Mankind and who wants to be giving out the PUNISHMENT and Destruction then those Good Guys intentions are NOT so Good for Mankind.
The other Guys had Disobeyed the Hierarchy, but they in doing so had Enlightened Mankind... to Levels the Hierarchy had NOT intended or Forbidden.... and so maybe there is a SIMILAR kind of Connection that we could apply to the Engineers.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think trying to get back to the OT as far as what you may be referring to, seems to be that One Species/Faction of Engineers had Created us for Good Intentions while another had intended to Destroy us with Different.
If this is to suggest that our LV-223 Guys had intended to Destroy us because we KILLED the Emissary and they was UPSET at the Civilization/Culture of the Roman Empire and maybe then WHY does Planet 4 look so much like such a Culture?
This is a Rabbit Hole that has a number of ways we can look at it. For example had the Planet 4 Engineers had Influenced our Roman Culture, was this against what the Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Engineers had intended?
You would have to Wonder WHY had the Planet 4 Engineers not been Punished/Destroyed?
Maybe they knew the LV-223 Engineers was not pleased with how Mankind had became, and maybe they too Feared they would be on the Receiving End of the LV-223 Engineers Wraith... and so they Intervened in Sabotage or Similar to Eradicate the LV-223 Engineers causing the Outbreak?
A Problem with this is that the Planet 4 Engineers did-not look Concerned about a Incoming Juggernaut but its seemed the Ship was Familiar to them but they had NO Fear, so they either must have been Confident the LV-223 Engineers are all DEAD and these Juggernauts are not Confined to LV-223 or that both sets of Engineers may be on the same Page?
You could look at it as though they (LV-223 Engineers) decided to GIVE UP on Mankind, but they had taken some Humans to Planet 4 and so Created/Interbred what we see as the Planet 4 Engineers and left Earth to ROT as without their HELP then Mankind would be STUCK on Earth.
The Problem is that RS and Seagers had indicated that Planet 4 would Predate Mankind and so the Architecture on Earth including the Roman Empires are Inspired/Taught by those who had Constructed the Buildings on Planet 4
I guess we could look at the Engineers on LV-223 as being tasked as being Watchers, but they decided instead to Interfere and Confidence Mankind to follow their Ways, and so they wished to Influence Mankind in ways that the Hierarchy of the Engineers would have Forbidden... But just as the LV-223 Engineers decide to go against their Hierarchy wishes... they discover that Mankind become Rebellious and go against the Watchers (LV-223 Engineers) intentions and ways, and so they decided to REPLACE US with something Else.
The BIG Problem with such Ideas as i have discussed in this REPLY is the Location of Planet 4 in relation to Earth and LV-223, had the Engineers Home-World/Planet 4 been Located FAR FAR FAR away like 1000's of Light Years, then Scenarios as i put in this TOPIC could be more Plausible.
I would Safely Assume that if RS was not Forced to make Alien Covenant a Movie that would Directly begin to Connect to ALIEN and introduce the Xenomorph... then i would assume that a Prometheus 2 would have taken David and Dr Shaw to a WORLD that is FAR beyond the Reach of Human Technology even as of ALIENS.
They seem LESS-SO by Virtue of Planet 4 and LV-223 being on the Door Step to Each other and a Stone Throw away from Earth in Terms of Engineers Technology.
Which would have left LESS of a Restraint and more Flexibility on Expanded the Engineers Agenda and History.
"So they made new models - the Planet 4 beings: more submissive, obedient etc"
This Certainly was a Conclusion you could draw, One that i was a Little Drawn too, until some of the Commentary Came out, but it seems those Planet 4 Engineers could Predate Mankind.
Maybe we was a latter Experiment, that Failed when we became a Race that Left Alone would Develop to have our own Views and Cultures and ways than KEEP to what the Engineers wanted from us.
I cant seem to Find where i had read that either Ridley Scott or Chris Seagers had referred to the Planet 4 Engineers as the Originals... maybe i was mistaken?
It certainly is the case the Hall of Heads guys predate us, but thats not to say they are the SAME as those Planet 4 Guys, and so in FUTURE it could be revealed on Screen that the Planet 4 Engineers are a Hybrid of Humans and Engineers and that WE do Predate those Planet 4 beings...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
If the Engineers on LV-223 are "exotic dark angels" analogous to the Book of Enoch's Sons of God/ Watchers, why are they shown to be somewhat worshipping the protomorph in the ampule room? That is, if they are akin to the angels who did not keep their first estate, why are they found worshipping this creature instead of a leader angel akin to Lucifer or Semyaza? Or with this being an existential universe, is it that they rebelled against their original creator/ master, placing their faith in dark science, instead of waiting for a messiah, they engineered one, a Lovecraftian god, the protomorph equivalent to the blind idiot god (the proto- xenomorphs unable to see), Azathoth, and they become its pipers, creating a chaotic, uncaring, universe, opposite to their creator's intent?
I certainly think thats something to Consider.
However it could also not be a Indication of a GOD, Murals are sometimes made to Depict certain Acts, Accomplishments as well as Figures or Importance.
There was a lot of Speculation about the Mural, especially since the Space Jesus was kind of indicated by RS, which lead to Speculation that the Cruciform Pose of the Mural must indicate this is a GODLIKE Figure.
Bare with me a bit ;)
The Cruciform Pose of Christ is such that it represents NOT the LORD but the Savior, in that through his Sacrifice on the Cross that Mankind has Redemption, a Chance to be Saved. The Greatest Deed of Gods Will was the Sacrifice of Christ.
So a Cruciform Pose mainly would Symbolize Sacrifice which is something the Engineers are Very Into and it HOLDS a great Importance.
When we look at LV-223 we know that Clues to this Place have been left on Earth for at least 35'000 Years, this does-not mean that for 35'000 Years that Mural had been there and for 33'000 Years they had Experimented on stuff related to the Mural before decided to UNLEASH it and then things WENT to POT.
So maybe at some point some Engineers or the Entire Civilization had began to Experiment with Horrors that related to the Black Goo and the Mural, the Cruciform Pose could be they Created something to Worship, but then through Many Cultures that Depict Gods they are not really depicted in Cruciform Pose for the Most Part.
My Interpretation is they Encountered something that they Sacrificed, or they had Created Something they then Sacrificed, and Regardless of Which... this is depicted in the Mural of being of GREAT Benefit to those Engineers.
Was it only a Faction of Engineers who undertook such Experiments? Would this be why they could in part be Considered the Fallen Angels as Ridley Scott had indicated.
Or was their Entire Hierarchy in on this Agenda and so the ENTIRE or Most of the Engineers Society are Evil/Fallen?
I think that David could give us some Clues.. as far as Repeating of History.... i would NOT have been Surprised if Alien Covenant had shown a MURAL of Dr Shaw in Cruciform Pose to Symbolize her Sacrifice had allowed for his Masterpiece...
Sorry if this is a Little Off Topic
I think trying to TIE things together is something that has Many ways they could be Explored. Do we look at Lucifer and Paradise Lost in more Detail, do we look at Prometheus? I would say we can look at Everything but maybe NOT try and look too Literal at any ONE thing. But certainly TRY and see how we could Connect them.
I think the Watchers and Book of Enoch could be something else to Consider too. I think we could look at Samyaza, it would depend on how Literally we try and Connect it. Would we consider that some Engineers had a LUST for Human Females if so WHY?
Planet 4 Engineers have Females, so WHY go after Humans, unless the Daughters of Man are more Attractive to them, or the Engineers are SET in Ritual Ways where Procreation and Sex is something that there Culture has Forbidden, as far as the LUST and Pleasures of SEX?
Has the Basis of the Engineers PLOT changed from Inception? as prior to Prometheus it was that these Engineers had Engineered Themselves Sterile...... was the Creation of Mankind to Obtain Females to allow they to Procreate, but this was ONLY as far as to obtain the Seed/Egg to then Procreate in a LAB and thus SEX is Shunned?
We dont know for sure as it could be the Engineers on Planet 4 and the Females would predate Mankind, if so maybe Interbreeding with Humans is Forbidden?
Another aspect of Semyaza if i can remember right was the Rebellion against the Rules/Ways of GOD and a Attempt to Create their Own Rules/Rituals and Religion.
In Context to the Franchise, then any Engineers who would attempt to Create/Teach Ways and Rituals that are Against or Do-Not Follow the Ways/Rituals of the Founders would be Consider a Fall.
There are so Many ways these things could FIT, was Mankind Created for a Simple Purpose to be as Cavemen.. and so the Engineers who Visited us and Taught us stuff, was these Engineers Teaching Forbidden Stuff or trying to MOLD us to Worship them as GODS... which is NOT the intention the Hierarchy/Founders of the Engineers may have had Planned, in which case such a Action would be Fallen.
This is the BEAUTY of the Plot and HOW it connects to Various Cultures, Religions and what we are shown, as its BOLD and is VERY open to how you Explore/Connect these things, but this also becomes the Poisoned Chalice of the PLOT.... HOW do you Connect it all? (reason WHY i Abandoned doing Stories that Continued after Prometheus). I could not find a Complete Answer.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I see a lot of posts and comments claiming that “good engineers” or “bad engineers” typically have success or issues, respectively. Curious, what would you define as a “good engineer” and a “bad engineer”? Asking for specifics beyond traits and qualities that would be good for any position (dependability, punctuality, attitude, etc.)
Well this is why I put them in quotation marks. Of course what is "good" and what is "bad" is somewhat a matter of perspective.
In this context I was clearly referring to them as corresponding to "God", "Zeus", "Prometheus", "Satan" - which should give you a straight forward explanation what is to be considered "good" or "bad", namely creating mankind and teaching them is (from our point of view) good. Wanting to destroy mankind is (from our point of view) bad. Clear as mud.
And I'm not saying that this or this group of Engineers is an identity with God or Satan or Zeus or Prometheus or that the myths played out literally. But the underlying pattern is clearly: one group of Engineers is benevolent towards mankind and one group is hostile (or at least instructed to destroy us, while being indifferent about it).
I think what it BOILS down to is FREE-WILL
With Free-Will then a Intelligent Creation would have the Capacity to be Evil or Good, they can be Shaped by their Environment and Experiences.
A Creation without Free-will could in effect be Programed to Follow Certain Ways/Rules.
You then also have Creation that relies on Instincts and Survival, this is the case with Most Life-Forms their Actions are NOT to be Considered Evil or Good they are just Surviving.
With the Engineers they appear to be a Species that has the Capacity for Free-will, which can become Chaotic and so this is where the Hierarchy would have Certain Rules and Regulations.
And some of these Rules/Ways may seem a little Wicked to some, but they would be Greater Reasons for such Rules/Rituals. The Engineers would likely NOT view Mankind as being on the Same Level as them, and we could be seen to them as we would view Monkeys.
With Free-will comes the ability to Revolt and disobey the Rules and those who do-so could be seen as EVIL from the stance of the Hierarchy and so in this Context then PROMETHEUS would be seen as BAD in the Eyes of the Olympians/Zeus, as he would also had been seen as a Traitor to the other Titans.
While to Humanity he would NOT be considered as BAD but someone who is a Protector, someone who is Enlightening Mankind and trying to Help them against Oppression of the Gods.
If we try and look DEEPER with the Engineers, then their would likely had been Different Factions, who is to say if any are Truly Evil or Truly Good, they could be Neutral but have Different Opinions and Ways... but then their is the Potential for their to be SINISTER members of their Society.
I think its Possible they could have had Waring Factions in the Past, before at some point their was a Governing Body that is Created to Control and Maintain Order.... so their Species may have have Conflict and War before the DAWN of their own kind of NWO (New World Order).
So i think the Engineers are as likely to be Evil and Good as Mankind is too.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
In opinion the opposite is true. the bad engineers are those from Prometheus. have genetically modified bodies with biocombinesone. and they with AC have normal bodies, are smiling and do not hate, live in humble and primitive conditions. they are similar to the engineers at the scene of a dedicated engineer. they have normal bodies and a ship that flies away in the shape of a pancake or a guitar pick and not like a croissant like those bad engineers. maybe once engineers studied DNA separated into two fractions. some worked on a cure for disease and life creation, and others genetically identified. they made a biocombinesis and a xenomorphic creature was accidentally created in the laboratory. good engineers wanted to destroy him, evil decided to research and multiply them and then waged wars and wanted to kill good engineers and their product - people. but something happened. an abandoned ship on lv426 could be one of the fleet that was going to earth or to paradise. they had monster eggs on board that they were supposed to carry to the ground and a mysterious fog over the eggs kept them alive and the engineer in the chair was impregnated and jumped out of the cage xenomorf. There was few kind od Black goo. One create xeno form monsters, second destroy DNA used to Control and destroy This monsters when who lost Control.
The engineers on LV-223 look different because they are making highly advanced weapons of mass destruction. When they are in the their labs they have modified bodies so they can work in hazardous environments.
It makes less sense that that there would be factions of the Aliens AKA engineers working against their entire culture. I like to think of them at most as a rouge element of part of their government working towards a greater weapon to kill off an enemy that is attacking them in another part of the galaxy.
The story line where they create us....well here is what I think about that....you need lab rats to test your weapons on...that solves that and it's a lot more interesting.
Ok then so what to do about the plot holes...if they are so advanced why dont they just use their computers and use simulations....who knows.....who knows.....the fact that they created us and then want to kill us is stupid plot hole so you have to fill it with something. Who knows why they went there in the first place. The mission to LV-426 was always about special order 937 "Priority One. Ensure return of organism for analysis. All other considerations secondary. Crew expendable."
So there you go they should have stuck with that plot line that we were always outsiders and had nothing to do with these Aliens!!! The entire franchise is messed up its not even funny.
All they had to do was insert us in this larger cosmic war the Engineers were about to engage in with eggs in the cargo hold and we would have had much better movies consistent with everything Ridley wanted to do with the entire franchise.
Really it's twisted and difficult to understand. When Shaw met Weyland, saud that their aren't US creators and we was wrong. They want to destroy us. Why the Engineers from LV223 escaping and were poisoned by Black goo and they died?
As far as I remember, once upon a time, Ridley talked about Space Jockey and that he might have participated in a civil war. I emphasize - civil. And when you consider that in Prometheus and Covenant have been used some old ideas, then the idea of civil war of different fractions of engineers may take place. Who knows - maybe in the third movie?
I also remember an example about the language of engineers as: They (people, David) learned Spanish, and met with the Portuguese. Which means they arrived at the wrong place. Or in the right one, but this place was already captured by another, hostile faction. And so it may be that David arrived on the home planet of the “good” faction.
".the fact that they created us and then want to kill us is stupid plot hole so you have to fill it with something"
Well its touching on THEMES of Creation, Knowledge and Free-will, and David is a Proxy for us, a History thats repeating itself.
If we look at the Bible... if Adam and Eve had not tasted the Forbidden Fruit then Mankind would have been YES SIR, NO SIR.. to GOD... much like Walter is.
David has Free-Will he has Emotions and can be Affected by how he is Treated... with Walter you can INSULT him and he wont Care, he has no Feelings or Free-Will... With Free-Will you have a David that can Potentially become Sentient and Fail to see WHY he should be considered a Servant of his Creators..
We see that David has become a Danger.... the Right Course of Action would be to DESTROY him and on the Safe Side also get RID of all Synthetics and Advanced A.I so you dont come to the same Problem again!
Similar is what the Engineers did with us, they saw us as a Threat, that we in General will NO longer play by their Rules. So we have similar Themes at play on Multiple Layers.
It could be Possible those LV-223 Engineers are to Planet 4 as David is to Mankind... well as a Replicant is to Mankind would be more fitting.
Going back to Good vs Evil... it seems the Engineers have Evolved and Enhanced themselves well with Prometheus, but i think regardless its a case of the Engineers have been around for Millions and Millions of Years, they likely would have gone through the Civil Unrest and Wars that Mankind has.
It would seem ODD for a Space Fairing Species to be Confined to just Planet 4 and LV-223 and so there is SCOPE for them to be on MANY Worlds that could be Thousands of Light Years apart.
These Engineers could have been in Conflict, or maybe New Conflict could arise... there are so MANY ways the Plot could be Expanded on, as its so OPEN.
GOING BACK..... to before the Prequels.
You had that Space Jockey... do you SKIP his Story, what is is Story? He is just Carrying those Eggs but WHY?
Knowing HOW/WHEN is only PART of the Story.
WHY is whats more interesting... and this seems as a WEAPON but the its against WHO?
To then show the Space Jockey as a ALIEN Species that has NOTHING to do with us, and are at Conflict with either a Faction of themselves or another ALIEN Species.
WHEN/IF you take this route, then you have to have a PLOT to show HOW do the Humans come into Contact with the Space Jockey, and ONCE you Discover they are ALIEN in a WAR with other ALIENS... and the Xenomorph they use as a Weapon.
Then its a case of HOW/WHEN and WHERE do you Explore this Conflict and still have Humans involved.
Also HOW do the Humans Communicate with said ALIENS?
Because what you get otherwise is a Independence Day set in a World Far Far away. So the Creators/Engineers Plot was created so that there is a Reason to HOW it is that Humans can stumble upon Places where the Space Jockey are.
The only other OPTION would be Humans either by Chance/Exploration or a SOS Signal end up on LV-426 where there is another ALIVE Space Jockey or a Few at this Time...
You explain HOW those others Disappeared.... and then lead up to Special Order 937.... but then whats NEXT?
Oh Derelict and Eggs that Humans go back to over and over.. well a Few more times.
So the Engineers Plot was there to give a Reason for WHY the Humans could stumble upon something related to the Space Jockey and open up Potential to Expand into a New Area.... a BOLD PLOT..
Maybe ONE that is too Bold to do Justice.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Remember the Engineers on LV-223 were ready to direct the universe's most deadly WMDs on a primitive experiment, yet were still shepherding us as recent as 1000 A.D (see below). If the ones on LV-223 were pissed we killed their Emissary, why were the others on Earth not similarly incensed? And if the cargo had been dropped, would it take them out also?
500 A.D. – Tikal, Guatemala, Mayan classic
600 A.D. – Toro Muerto, Peru
1000 A.D. – Tula, Hidalgo Mexico, Toltecs
– Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, Anasazi
Certainly those are a MYSTERY...
They could be a PASSING on of Information down to Generations of Mankind to Different Locations after the Fall of LV-223, and so the Latter Ones are NOT passed on by Visiting Engineers.
A Logical way to look at it could be The Emissary!
If we go back 2000+ Years Ago, would EVERY kind of Civilization on Earth be UPSETTING the Engineers?
Are we going to just ASSUME that the Areas where the Middle East would MEET the Mediterranean and due to the Roman Empire Influence back then are WHY the Engineers thought they NEED to send but a SINGLE being down (Emissary).
The Engineers Culture was say a kind of Religion/Cult with their SET OF RULES for people... It could be likely that they would SEND down more than ONE Emissary.
So others could have been Located in other Continents... after the Engineered had DEEMED for our Destruction but we saw the Failure of that then maybe some of these Emissaries had Survived and PASSED on the Starmaps to the other Cultures that are Dated after 0AD
They could be Stranded/Abandoned on Earth.
It would be likely these Emissaries would be more Familiar with Humans than Engineers, they could be Hybrids or some kind of Enhancements over Normal Humans and they could have Knowledge and Tools given to them that would come across to Ancient People as Magical/Miracles.
I think back to Good and Bad Engineers then as a Species that are similar to Humans with Free-Will then its likely they can be Good or Bad, they could have been as SUCH but changed, but they could also Turn Good/Bad.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@BigDave: While all groups Engineers on Earth were fostering might not have been held accountable, you think they'd have been able to contain the pathogen when they released it in Rome and it wouldn't have spread further afield? This plague would have been bigger than what Thucydides reported. It would have spread like COVID-19, particularly if it impacted flora as well as fauna.
I think with Prometheus the Indication is that the Pathogen would have likely Effected the Whole Planet...
I would say that any Left Behind without Ships to take them from Earth would have no way of Protecting themselves... would they had WARNED any Civilizations they was in Contact with, Especially if they deem those Civilizations as NOT really Offending them or that they could be Put back on Track.
Maybe you need to look it from the Engineers Perspective, if they Felt Humans had Warranted Time and Effort, but then we UPSET them... this is due to Free-Will, Knowledge and Corruption..
I would assume its LIKELY that Earth is NOT the only World they have Humanoids like us... or even that prior to the Bombardment Plans... after they send down some Emissaries i think it makes sense that they would go and TAKE some Human Infants/Babies or Females so they can Procreate and Place other Humans on other Worlds and this TIME try and Learn what caused us to OFFEND them!
Essentially like how GOD had Saved Noah etc.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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