Dead in the Water?15,561 Views51 RepliesAdd A Reply
Its been quite some time with NO News regarding the Prequels, however with the Disney Take Over it seems the Franchise is still getting Material as far as Comics, Games, Novels and Merchandise that all seem to be connected more to the ALIEN Franchise as opposed to the Prequels.
So do you think the whole Prometheus Plot and Engineers are DEAD IN THE WATER?
Do you think or expect that Disney would ever Explore our Engineers again, or even do any Continuation with the Prequels?
Or do you expect them to just Concentrate on the Xenomorph's alone and to NOT touch on the Prequels or Engineers and would that be something you think would be for the best?
The more ALIEN Franchise Related Material we get released over the years, and the Longer before we see anything regarding a Continuation of the Prequels or any exploration of our Engineers, then it could seem that maybe they would become a Forgotten Part of the ALIEN Franchise.
Would we and should we see a Continuation or Exploration of the Engineers...
Or should a Complete Reboot be what Disney should and could eventually do in a number of years down the line?
Forgot to add.... do you also think they would instead Continue with a ALIEN Franchise Movie Series that is set after the events of ALIEN, and is this a direction you would prefer?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"I am sorry but I laugh when you mention AVPR"
Thats what i was saying.... AVPR made a Mockery of the Xenomorph.... but for Fans they can Pretend it Never Happened like i do with The Predator ;)
I think you have to be Careful with the Xenomorph as i think there is only so much you can do as far as Queen = Eggs..... before it can get STALE... you would be HARD pushed to make another ALIEN/ALIENS and your more likely to make another AVP/AVPR as far as Portrayal of the Xenomorph
As far as the Engineers i would say a Majority who would have Time for them would want to see them as far as WHY they are Connected to the Juggernaught Ships and Xenomorph and what KICK ASS sorts of Technology they have... much like how Fans like how the Predators are shown.
And LESS would be Willing to see the Engineers as far as the WHOLE Gods/Creators and Ancient Stuff... they be like that SHOULD-NOT be what the ALIEN Franchise is about...
But then RS had intended to Expand on the Engineers to make a Spin Off Franchise that is NOT about ALIEN.
If we do see the Engineers again... i DOUBT we would explore their Culture/History and it would purely be like Comics... so it be LV-223 Angry Engineers, Juggernaught Ships, and Black Goo/Eggs and Engineer Weapons like this.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I am sad to say but imo I think the whole wonder that we may have possibly seen (RS shown some balls) of the engineers is dead. the backstory of who they truly are, where theyr from, theyr connection to the original alien and all the other visions and routes possible for them after Prometheus has been completely ditched and theyl just be in the next one as plot and time filler. iv said it before and my opinion doesn't change about the direction RS after Prometheus. he simply sold out his vision. iv watched AC twice n there wont be a third. but hey, not like the big guy in the chair, who was he and his relationship to the eggs was ever a major reason to make the prequels..oh wait...............
I think RS continuing with the franchise is wishful thinking, but it could continue branching out in other forms. Underwater seems to have some possibilities. Mini series could go different ways too. Others like novels and comics as well. Judging by box office numbers, it's hard to see the franchise continue on the big screen.
ali81 You know it, admit it! David is the Space Jockey!
"iv said it before and my opinion doesn't change about the direction RS after Prometheus. he simply sold out his vision."
I think its a case of FOX did not like his Vision and wanted to make a Legitimate Alien Prequel and so RS likely just tried to IMPRINT some of his Vision into the PLOT.
That Vision being about Playing God, Sub-Creation and attempting to Create Perfection which can become a Hubris when you Create Something that you cant Control or that Rebels.
It will be interesting to come across the Earlier Abandoned Drafts where the Sequel to Prometheus was on HOLD until they brought in Dante Harper and John Logan... and by that i mean it would be interesting to see what STATE the Story was in when Micheal Green had taken the reigns from Jack Paglen and to look at what Greens work was about.
I would be WILLING to Bet that at this Point it was NOT going to Connect to ALIEN or explain the Derelict but it would have likely had David be shown to attempt to become his OWN Creator!
And so with FOX wanting the Xenomorph and a Prequel to Connect to ALIEN, then maybe RS could have been a bit Disappointed about NOT being able to Steer Away from those Eggs and Derelict and to revolve around Creation/Hubris and Engineers...
So maybe he was like "you want Fecking Aliens.. i give you Fecking Aliens... and i make David the Creator and see how you like your Spoon Fed Prequel NOW" ;)
so RS could go to FOX and be like "see we gave them Xenomorphs and the Movie still did-not go down well"
Which is why i think he mentioned in a Interview after Alien Covenant, that he Felt there was ONLY so much Snarling and Face Pulling you could do... and that he was AHEAD of the Curve with Prometheus.
You can sense he had MUCH BIGGER plans for the Franchise as far as to STEER AWAY from Alien, and so it seems he was not too pleased with the Direction..
But none the less FOX felt the Fans wanted their Answers to WHERE did the Xenomorph come from and HOW did those EGGS get on the Derelict.
And who knows..... we cant 100% Rule Out that David would had been revealed as the Space Jockey ;)
Sounds Plain Stupid? Not if we Consider what a Ultimate Achievement of A.I and Genetic Engineering can Achieve... we have to THINK about what Weyland had hoped to have Achieved? a Magical Serum that would turn him back to a 40 Year Old Man... and Remain Immortalized in this FORM?
Or Speculatively are there others ways that maybe ONE could be given more LIFE or some what Immortality?
A Big Clue also being how RS had claimed those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals and Live for about 150 Years... they definitely dont look like the Superior Looking Prometheus Engineers who live for Thousands of Years (Original Idea/Concept)
Come to think of it the ONLY real Human in the Franchise who maybe has some what of a Immortality is RIPLEY 8 ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I'm sorry, but nowhere else I have not seen confirmation that the Engineers on the Planet 4 are originals.
"and that he was AHEAD of the Curve with Prometheus."
So, this means that RS wanted to put in Prometheus is even less information? Wow!
The problem with AC - this is what Prometheus was supposed to be. But with the replacement of several parts. David instead Walter. The Last Engineer instead the David-Moreau. Yes it is.
I will have to try and Dig Up the Comment and Interview regarding the Engineers being the Originals but he 100% did make that Claim, among other things such as they Live for 150 Years and they are not a RACE but a Civilization.
These and other Comments regarding the Engineers after Alien Covenant could seem to Paint a Picture for us, but i guess we will NEVER know what his Intentions are any more.
By ahead of the Curve he means that Prometheus was not really about showing HOW the Xenomorph was Created and HOW it connects to the Engineers, it was a Movie that was taking a look at other things and so it seemed he wanted to cover more about the Engineers and what their Agenda is as far as NOT just being about Creating Horrific Bio-Weapons to Unleash on Worlds and more so what the HELL had happened on LV-426... But its these things that a lot of Fans are more Interested in.... which is the route that the Comics give which is just to make them a bit DUMB! and just are PISSED OFF with everything they Create and just go around Creating Xenomorphs and Stuff to KILL off what ever they Created..
I think RS was look at more DEPTH than that.... he wanted to STEER this Spin Off in a Direction thats AWAY from Eggs and Face Huggers and all that stuff.
I think maybe we have to wait and hope he if mentions anything related after he has Released his Raised by Wolves TV Series.
The Prometheus Plot was maybe too BOLD for the Alien Franchise especially in Context to Pop Corn Shoot Em Up version that a lot of the Comics, Games tend to revolve around and a ALIEN Prequel should have maybe just gone and made it SIMPLE and into a Starship Troopers with Queens, Eggs and Xenomorphs....
I think in Hindsight something a bit more ALIEN should have been Explored as far as what is ABOVE the Engineers, something more Lovecraftian but i doubt we would ever see anything like this.
"The problem with AC"
To a degree then YES as far as the Engineers would have been up to similar to what David had been up to in Alien Covenant.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Oh, I would also like to see how they are connected to the Juggernaught and the Xeno but I would also like to know more about their culture, and so on. There are many things that you could do with it and I am not sure that Prometheus killed everyone's interest in it even though they could have executed the idea about the Engineers in a better way.
For example about something about the non-warfare thing about the Engineers that is interesting is the scene with the sacrificial Engineer. This is something about them that is not about kicking ass but it is interesting because it says something about their culture. You mention what it should be about, at least it is kind of close to the SJ which was interesting. You can say that David is a part because he is an android and that for example Bishop was interesting but at the same time the legacy of the SJ has a bigger impact of the story than the legacy of the androids (Engineers-SJ-monsters versus David-Ash-Bishop). If you make a better connection between the Engineers and the SJ and the Xeno it could work.
"… LV-223 Angry Engineers, Juggernaught Ships, and Black Goo/Eggs and Engineer Weapons like this."
I would like to see that but at the same time there are other things that they could have about them. They got to make them interesting and to have them making sense because I am not sure that Prometheus did that because they removed the subtitles that could have explained more what they are about. Not sure who's idea that it was to remove the subtitles but whoever was responsible for that made a crappy decision (not sure if was because of Scott, Fox, or whoever).
"That Vision being about Playing God, Sub-Creation and attempting to Create Perfection which can become a Hubris when you Create Something that you cant Control or that Rebels."
I think that the idea is alright but it could have been a better story and closer to Alien. The connection of the Xenos and the Engineers could have been interesting if we think about this but then we might never get to see that.
"… but it would have likely had David be shown to attempt to become his OWN Creator!"
But that could mean that it would still be about David right? That could mean that we still would have ended up with the disappointment that Alien Covenant became. I would rather have no movie at all if that would be the alternative.
". . . see we gave them Xenomorphs and the Movie still did-not go down well"
That is hardly why Alien Covenant was not very good. If that is his way of thinking then he does not understand the importance of characters since he mostly talks about the Xenos and his dislike for them and David means that he still does not or at least underestimates the importance of relatable human characters.
"Sounds Plain Stupid?"
Scientifically it might work but story-wise it sucks balls.
Certainly, i think in a way RS felt that the things he was trying to Achieve by a Sequel to Prometheus that likely would have NOT been about Xenomorphs was something he felt was more Important than going back to Xenomorphs that had been done Over and Over...
Alien Covenants Failing was not down to Xenomorphs it was about a LOT of things, some Fans had lost interest after Prometheus, as there was some Fans who was displeased that Prometheus was not really much of a ALIEN Movie, and how RS had seemed to indicate that he wanted to STEER AWAY from Xenomorphs. Alien Covenant was Marketed as a Prequel to ALIEN that would Uncover the Xenomorph Origins and bring back the Xenomorph, but it was NOT enough to get the Fans to the Box Office... thats REGARDLESS of the Characters, it just seemed the MOVIE never had as much Interest.
I am sure the Marketing and how it had Teased the Xenomorphs was something that FOX felt would get more to see it than Prometheus.
But then we get to the Critical Response...
Which is where the Character Development was not Fleshed Out enough, and NOT executed much and it seemed Everyone was just a Footnote/Plot Device to tell the STORY about David and Walter.... which i think a lot of Fans felt the Emphasis was Too Much on them...
The Xenomorph only had a Smaller Role, i dont think it can be blamed for the Failings, the Neomorph too, there was just not enough TIME spent on such Monsters... The movie was quite like Star Wars Rise of Skywalker... it seemed like there was too much being Crammed into ONE movie where a lot was just Filler to the Main Objective... which for SW EP9 was Rey/Ben and Palpatine....
So with AC it was mainly about David and his Agenda/Actions and then Walter/Xenomorph.. everything else was just like FILLER... Characters just never seemed interesting really... Oram, Faris, Lope all seemed to be more interesting than Daniels and Tennessee.
The Biggest Pitfall came 3 FOLD! in addition to Character Execution.
1) The Movie teased the Origins of the Xenomorph but then gave revelations that it was the Project/Creation of a Lonely Bored Android who DISLIKED the Engineers and Humans. Which Totally took the Enigma/Mystery of the Xenomorph away... was this a BIG F-U to the Fanboys?
2) Engineers are what some Fans expected to see, especially as the setting would be a Engineer World, and while the Planet 4 Engineers never lived up to some Fans Expectations and it lacked the Bio-Mechanical Feel.. i think the Biggest Problem is that the Engineers basically played even LESS a Impact/Role than the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus... Some Fans wanted to know more and see more and what we got was the Engineers Brushed Under the Carpet.
3) Dr Shaw... again Brushed under the Carpet even more so than the Engineers and only shown as a Corpse... some Fans never liked her Character, some was looking forwards to seeing her.. i think if her Character was Broken it could be FIXED by showing how the Traumatic Events of Prometheus had Affected her...
I am sure some Fans were left Puzzled by Prometheus as to WHY they never got Answers for the Xenomorph or saw any in the Movie.... But Prometheus was to NOT be a ALIEN Movie, not as far as to GIVE away such Answers.
But Prometheus was to SET UP some other Questions... of which Dr Shaw would surely be the Proxy for us to getting them Answered...
*Why did they Create us? and Visit us?
*Why did they Change their Minds and want to Destroy us?
So fans (of Prometheus) would be expecting that Dr Shaw would have at least MET some Engineers for Answers... or at least to ASK the Questions... Also i am sure Fans would have been interested to see WHICH WAY the Relationship between Dr Shaw and David would go!
And so to have the Engineers and Dr Shaw's Roles basically TRASHED.... was upsetting for Prometheus Fans... for the ALIEN and more so ALIENS Fans then the Xenomorph scenes were NOT long enough and they had been Turned into a Abomination via the Revelation that David had done it.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
However as far as the OT...
Then i think Certainly more about the Engineers would have been needed, both the LV-223 Kind and Planet 4 and more so the Overall Agenda/History of who they are and WHY are they considered Creators.. but then Create such Horrific Weapons... (well some of them had done).
It would have to be a BALANCE... between Ancient looking Engineers and Technologically Advanced ones...
Sadly i cant see Disney really investing Time in them... we may only see them in COMIC FORM where they would just ROCK UP with Advanced Weapons or Sheer Muscle and KICK ASS....
If we got a Expanded Novel Universe then i think that would be suited to give us more about the Engineers... but it is a case of would Disney be interesting in the Engineers Full Stop?
I think Disney would be more interesting in showing us Queens, Eggs and Ripleys.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
where they would just ROCK UP with Advanced Weapons or Sheer Muscle and KICK ASS....
Oh, c'mon! Not again! Engineers already are kick ass space bodybuilders! This is Ridley's canon before Covenant.
Indeed i am not Contesting that this was not Part of the Canon ;)
If we IGNORE the Sacrificial Scene from Prometheus, then what we end up with is Dr Shaw and Holloway interpreting the Ancient Visitations by Alien Human-like beings who Mankind may have identified as Godlike beings, as ACTUALLY being nothing but Brutish Thugs who have little CARE about Creation and more so about Creating Horrific Biological Warfare.
Which is to a Degree is True... it is the depiction of the Engineers that the Comics have decided to go with, as this kind of Engineer fits well with a Run, Hide, Shoot type of Aliens and AVP kind of Franchise.
But you also have to Wonder if there is MORE to them than this.... which i think is something that RS may have intended to show us with Sequels... that seems to be Brushed Aside with Alien Covenant... we only have a Glimpse at a Engineer Society that seemed Worlds Apart to the Biologically Enhanced looking Brutes of LV-223.
The Purpose of the Topic was to look at how it appears that Exploring the Engineers beyond those Suited Up, Angry SOB's on LV-223 seems Unlikely.
I think RS and Co had a Vision beyond that where we would have seen a bit more about their Culture/History as well as to discover WHY we have those THUGS if you would... Its possible they could have been Explored as a Hubristic attempt at Creating a Enhanced/Engineered Off-Shoot of the Engineers which proved a Downfall... maybe this seems a bit BLADERUNNER but i was drawn to RS maybe indeed making some kind of Connection... as in the Engineer Bladerunner of Sorts.
But i think a lot of Fans may not be too Happy to look into depth with the Engineers, what may seem more interesting is seeing WHAT kind of Technology these guys have in Terms of for the USE of Warfare and HOW the Xenomorph etc would FIT into this.
I think some Elements of Prometheus would have gone to become some Thought Provoking themes... that maybe go beyond the Interest of some who just want to see Humans Running away from Xenomorphs, and then Marines come along and Pop a Cap in their Asses... but then see such other ALIEN Races like Predators and Engineers rock up to dish out some Human Fodder too.
I am not saying all Fans would prefer the same, or Pinpointing any One in Particular... i just feel the Engineers Plot could have given us a Chariots of the Gods with a bit of a Lovecraft Touch. I also felt the Hubristic approach of Mankind wishing to Enhance themselves and Create Slaves to basically do their Hard/Dirty Work is Interesting... but some Fans are NOT really interested in that... YET it could IMO Mirror what happened with the Engineers.
I think the way they tried to Expand the Franchise was too BOLD for some... and it should have been left a Mystery and we should have had more Xenomorph Eggs discovered by Humans kind of Fodder thats been done over and over and over (if we also consider Games/Comics)
I applaud RS for trying to do something Different and i am Disappointed that FOX never had the Balls or Faith to stick with the Vision that RS had.
I welcome seeing this Aggressive Sons of Queen! Engineers.. but i also would have liked to see more Depth to them... rather than more Stalk and Kill and Throw, while Humans will Run Away and Shoot!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Prometheus had depth for engineers, but RS himself (not FOX) cut out all the interesting points. So... RS wanted to show and explore the Engineers, but at the same time did not want to? A bit contradictory.
I applaud RS for trying to do something Different
He did, but then just cut out.
and i am Disappointed that FOX never had the Balls
FOX had, and filmed Prometheus, but Ridley cut out the interesting moments.
Well who knows the Real Story behind what Happens at the Cutting Room...
Typically a Production Company would want some CUTS to get the Movie into a Theatrical Running Time, i will however say it seems that RS was pleased with the CUTS and Claimed there would be NO Directors Cut as this was his Directors Cut.
Contradictory!!!! HOW DARE YOU ;)
YEP! i have to agree that RS does have a Habit of Contradicting himself a bit ;)
Some of the Cuts were apparently made because he felt leaving some Scenes in would GIVE AWAY too much (Elders) some likely for Pacing to get us into a Shorter Running Time.. these were Insignificant to a degree.
He had asked for the Engineer vs Dr Shaw Scene to be SHOT again as he Felt the Original made the Engineer seem to come across a bit Underwhelming.... but in Truth the Removal of that Scene meant the Forced Removal of others on the Cutting Room (where Engineer Clearly have No Burns).
What these did is seem to then (inc reduced Engineer Speaks Scene) Portray the Engineer as just going POSTAL.
Which RS had said afterwards that they are just Aggressive Muthur Truckers!
So in Part it seems RS wanted them Portrayed in a Certain way... he even indicated that they were Evil SOB's and that Dr Shaw and David would Discover some beings who are FAR from Benevolent.
The Full Sacrificial Scene did seem a Benevolent Act, the Base Idea for the Engineers at Conception was a Benevolent Species towards Mankind.... UNTIL something had Happened to Change all of that.
The Planet 4 Engineers did come across as some Race who lived a Benevolent Life... but as NOT much was shown we cant really be sure how they BEHAVED... they may be Benevolent to their Civilization... that does-not mean they are Towards Others.... but it could appear they ONCE DID.
Which i find would be Interesting to see what Changed.. it was kind of hinted at in Interviews... but i think the Scope was their for more than we just STARTED to misbehave... RS even indicating the Engineers Created Horrors to Protect themselves.
Ridley Scott does mention the Engineers a Fair Bit in Regards to they are Gardeners of Space... and not they WAS. So we have to Wonder in what Context is their Gardening of Space.. to what END?
As he mentions them in light of being Gardeners even after Alien Covenant. He made some Interesting Comments about their Species and the Hall of Heads.
There is/was a Story to be Told... but its a case of IF we would ever really see that side of the Engineers... as it seems the Intention is that some Engineers Return to Planet 4 and they would be NOT PLEASED at what they FIND and would be OUT to get the Culprit and you have to assume that Davids Head would be on a Platter..
It seemed that Prometheus 2 was to STEER AWAY from ALIEN and the Xenomorph, we dont know how much Clues to LV-223 would have been given.... or IF any reason is given to WHY they would Create the Horrors on LV-223.
Maybe i am GIVING him (Ridley Scott) a bit too much Credit... on one hand he comes up with he Felt he was AHEAD of the Curve with Prometheus... but on the other he thinks he could PULL OFF another 3-6 Movies and go for a all out WAR OF THE WORLDS.
You have to assume that would Logically mean the Aggressive Goon Squad and a WHOLE MANNER of Xenomorph Related Beasts!
Mankind and David are FODDER... unless David creates some Superior Species or can Control his Xenomorph Horde..
So maybe the PATH FORWARD would be more like the Comics? I guess we would never know..
Maybe its me seeing MORE Potential with the PLOT and thinking this is what RS is doing/going for... when actually he MAY NOT be?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
It doesn't matter - it's all not on the screen. Therefore, it is not part of the story. I don't see any sense to cut anything from the movie, and then give an explanation. Films don't work like that!
Any next director can easily take the engineers, as they are, but give them his own explanation and vision. Not because he doesn’t agree with Ridley’s vision or ideas - it’s important, but because Ridley left the "ground" free for any other ideas.
For example - why Queen appeared in the Alien Universe? Only because Ridley cut out the eggmorphing scene. The scene that revealed the alien reproductive system. So... Ground is free - Queen appears!
Some of the Cuts were apparently made because he felt leaving some Scenes in would GIVE AWAY too much (Elders)
I will never understand this. And even more - I refuse to understand this and this way of thinking! If you have ideas - you must implement them in the film. Because you don't know what will happen next. Will it be possible to implement them later? As we know - no. Their plans are changed and I want to know - why?
Maybe - there was never a plan?
Alien Universe is not Star Wars. And even in SW it doesn’t always work!
Tbh, it was a loooong path.
1) Alien prequel + xenomorphs + engineers.
2) Not a direct prequel to Alien + xenomorphs + engineers.
3) Story so far from Alien + xenomorphs + engineers.
4) Story so far from Alien + engineers.
5) Story so far from Alien + a bit information about engineers.
Was it worth it?
Certainly that is the TOSS UP of the Coin they have to ASK.
You can Understand the idea of NOT giving too much away or Cutting things to Explore or Potentially change in a Sequel. However if there is some Story to Continue then INDEED sometimes its better to leave some stuff in to LAY the Seeds for a Sequel.
The Elder Engineers are a Fine Example... how much of a Mystery is effected by removing that Scene? Seems the reason for its removal by RS was that it GAVE AWAY too much, but then WHAT did it give away?
It revealed that the Engineers had OLDER and Frail Versions of themselves, what we would have Concluded from this is that either
a) The Engineers do AGE just at a Slower Rate.
b) That maybe these beings had Created a more Youthful Physically Superior Adonis version of themselves.
The removal of this Scene and for those who did-not see the Deleted Scenes would have left us Wondering
a) Are these beings all Very Similar and do they even AGE or remain looking like some kind of Adonis
b) Does the Ship (Tear Drop/Pebble) have a Crew that are the same as the Engineers or is it Unmanned or is some other Species in Control?
Looking at the Deleted Scene then it does-not really add a LOT to the Run-time... and it would give Fans a Tease at these beings and get to Wonder WHY they looked OLD/FRAIL. And a number of Fans would have seen the Elders in some form be it Deleted Scenes or Images on the Internet and they may have been Intrigued about them.
With John Spaights ideas it appeared to indicate this Species had Genetically Engineered/Evolved themselves to the Point they could no longer PROCREATE..... which could add something to the whole SEEDING Plot... but this was NEVER explained in the Movie and so was Subject to Change.
RS then had said the Engineers could Procreate in other ways but the Seeding Scene was just how they CHOSE to do it. So that means the Idea laid down by Spaights is NOT what RS is going for.
There was a LOT of Speculation about the Engineers and Elders prior to Alien Covenant. Maybe the Elders Scene could have drawn a certain Conclusion? When we consider that RS had said they could Procreate by other means that does change the Speculation about WHY would they SEED many Worlds the way they do, and INVEST a lot of Time with Mankind in our Evolution both Technologically and Genetically (as indicated by RS).
So when looking at the Removal of the Sacrificial Elders Scene, then we have to ASK as to WHY this would have changed our Interpretation?
So the POINT you raised is Valid... IF they had wanted to KEEP the Elders Back for a Sequel, then one ONE hand that would be a way of keeping something NEW/TWIST to a Plot... but then on the other hand IF the Elders would have been Explored and look the same as the Deleted Scene then WHY not keep it in?
So we are left to Speculate on TWO things..
1) As a Sequel was not a Given, this could have been a Stand Alone, then maybe having the Elders would lead to Expectation that there would be a Sequel... But then thats not really VALID as the Ending and especially Dr Shaw and David setting off would have LENT to a Sequel.
2) Was they intending to Change the Appearance of the Elders in some way? or Reveal that the Elders do-not exist?
so the other POINT you raise is Valid.... IF you have a Plan and something you want in a Sequel then its a Good Idea to leave some SEEDS/CLUES to this.. Otherwise if its left OPEN and Ambiguous or Not Answered at all.. then its Subject to Change in Sequels.
Especially if a NEW Director comes in, just as you Pointed out with HOW we got to a Queen... due to not showing HOW the Xenomorph Procreates in ALIEN.
Things do Change with Same Directors too... sometimes the Studio and Producers have a Big Say... who knows how much Influence David Giler and Walter Hill still have?
The whole David is the Creator Plot, is that NOT too FAR from David Giler and Walter Hill as far as there ALIEN draft, which the ONLY real thing to make it to ALIEN was the Company Conspiracy to Obtain a Specimen and a Hidden Android.
Did they have a PLAN?
The thing is that Stories Change, and Star Wars is the same, how much of EP9 was how maybe those who worked on EP7 but again its a bit different because EP8 was likely not what JJ Abrahams and Co would have made, and so EP9 has to deal with and try and clear up a bit of what EP8 gave..
With the ALIEN Prequels it really is ONLY the same Producers, Director and Production Company... you have to ASK did they have a Plan A-Z and how much keeps changing, it seems they really Struggle on a Story/Plot they want to Keep....
I think there was a Great Potential with Prometheus as there was Themes at play that go beyond explaining HOW/WHERE/WHEN there was this Parasitic Monster that goes around KILLING Folk......
Once you Spoon Feed the Origin of the Monster its a case of then WHAT? You can make another 3-6 ALIEN MOVIES... but for some its going to get BLAND if its about Eggs, Face Huggers and Queens....
so its more so the WHY as far as WHO created the Beast or WHO had experimented on it and WHY... that the thing to Explore Deeper... but thats NOT to everyone's Tastes and a lot of Fans would like a Basic ALIENS 2
It appeared there was a lot of Themes that Steer away from Eggs and Queens that a Prequel Series could have explored, but they just are NOT what some ALIEN fans are interested in, but then the IDEA with Prometheus was to STEER AWAY from ALIEN and Xenomorphs...
But we got Alien Covenant... and while disappointing it FITS with the Theme that was at the Basis of Prometheus (well some of them)... and when we look at the Removal of the Elders Scene and then look at the Planet 4 Engineers, we could ASK is this WHY the Scene was CUT.... had they decided to give us a different take on the Engineers?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"Was it worth it?"
I think that comes down to the Purpose of a Prequel.
After Alien Resurrection you had to Consider the Options. It was about 2009 when FOX had been Plotting to do another ALIEN Movie... there was interest early 2001 i think but then FOX decided to push with AVP.
So we are in 2009 and its a case of WHERE NEXT?
A Continuation of Alien Resurrection.. but then Miss Weaver would have been 13 Years Older than when she SHOT that Movie and Winona Ryder and so would you expect a Android and a Ripley 8 to AGE? But they could have expanded on AR and NOT have covered these Characters.
The other OPTIONS being... to ASK. Is there something to be GOT from LV-426 but then WHY would they result to Clone Ripley? That does-not mean they could not have given a Sequel to ALIEN 3 but at its Conclusion show the Destruction of LV-426 which would leave Ripley DNA as the only viable Source for the Xenomorph.
They could have gone for a Parallel Story as FAR as the Time-Line. For Example... Had someone been to the Derelict prior to the Nostromo and so what caused Special Order 937 to come into effect? Could someone had gone to the Derelict after the events of ALIEN but prior to Hadleys Hope? (This is what Alien Isolation had done).
Or is the Derelict and LV-426 the ONLY place that there are/have been Xenomorph Eggs?
But when Spaights came in to Pitch a Alien idea they had decided that you could do a Prequel... because NO-ONE had ever explored the Xenomorph Origins and WHO the Space Jockey was.
Jon Spaights had said that prior to him coming on board FOX had a Story that was basically similar to ALIENS... we can only Speculate it was another BACK TO LV-426 Flick.
So they came up with a Idea to Explore the Space Jockey Race as some Ancient Human looking Race who played a Role in our Creation.... VERY BOLD... and Alien Engineers/Genesis was Born!
FOX and to a degree RS had taken a Real Interest in that PLOT and Felt that Actually you NEVER had to have Xenomorphs or as many Clues... and so these were CUT and Toned Down and they got Lindeloff in to re-write them out.
And so the Prequel became a Loose Connection to ALIEN, where they felt there was more to Explore than WHEN/WHERE/WHY and HOW those Eggs came to be....
The PROBLEM was that Many Fans would have expected a Prequel to Cover those, Certainly more than we got, and that a ALIEN Movie needs a ALIEN Monster....
In Hindsight.... PROMETHEUS should have given a bit more Clues and had more MONSTER Scenes.... you never needed a Carbon Copy.... the Neomorph is NOT a as such... the Hammerpede, Trilobite and Deacon likewise.
But the difference being that with the Neomorph it actually went on to KILL a few Folk! With Prometheus we had Not So ALIEN Fifield and Angry Engineer... and so as FAR as more Connected to the Xenomorph Kills... then all we really got was Milburn getting Face Raped and the Engineer too.. only the Engineer we had a Result from this... the Deacon.
A little more Clues to LV-223 and LV-426 connection, some Xenomorph related even to a Deacon/Neomorph level Monsters and then i think the FIRST PREQUEL would have pleased more...
And allowed for TWO avenues for a Sequel.
1) A Return to LV-223 for more ALIEN Carnage and more Answers/Clues to the Xenomorph but this would NOT really be Needed if the above/prior mentioned idea/changes was executed well. It would only be Necessary to please Fanboys who want Eggs and Xenomorphs and Spoon Fed Answers...
2) Follow David and Dr Shaw and were they go, where IF we have more Xeno Related Monsters and Answers in the First Movie, then RS would be FREE to explore the Engineers, David and Dr Shaw and SHUT THE DOOR to ALIEN.
The NEXT Mistake they made was Alien Covenant... they should have given us OPTION 1 from above to please Fans who want Answers... that would then CLOSE THE DOOR to ALIEN and then allow after to go for OPTION 2 and Expand the Franchise with a Spin off Series that does-not have Xenomorphs etc.
What we have NOW is a Pickle... we could get Xenomorphs but they are Tarnished to a Degree with the Revelations... and it seems any Deep Exploration of the Engineers is Dead in the Water.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Clues, keys, answers - sounds more like... a mystery box. And mystery boxes have no answers. That is their essence. This is what they are for. Questions without answers.
It can be long to speculate on possible answers and interpretations - what did the film want to show / what did Ridley Scott mean? We do it on this forum ;)
But answer doesn't exist! No hidden, but just doesn't exist.
Another thing - Prometheus and AC. So, you said that Prometheus did everything (almost) correctly. Ridley was right in all aspects. But AC is huge mistake? Why? Because David create xeno or... AC just not about space bodybuilder philosophers? Not about these strange smiling space gardeners, who create life on the planets and sit in their caves, wrapped in their primitive middle-earth robes. But evil humanity insulted and upset these poor, good gardeners... Sounds like an alien film? No. Maybe sounds like a Prometheus sequel? Not, of course! Ridley wanted to filmed something like this? I doubt.
Prometheus begins as a film about origin of mankind, about the engineers; and why did engineers created people and then wanted to destory them? But... the plot suddenly changed when Peter Wayland appeared! And now this film not about origin of mankind, but about a man who wants to become immortal.
The both themes are very interesting, but they are cramped in one film! This is what I call - ahead of the curve! Prometheus needed to tell a story about the origin of mankind. From and to. And leave the search for immortality for the next film.
AC is a story about colonists who landed on a strange planet and are trying to survive. Plus some of David's thoughts, plus some philosophy and cultural heritage.
Simple - yes!
Laconically - yes!
Some questions - yes!
Some mystery boxes - no!
AC has a kind of spine.
Prometheus is more inspiring, I vehemently agree. But the plot is a kind of anthology of small stories and ideas implemented in one film.
Alien Covenant has a solid story that runs from A to Z. Although a couple of letters may have been lost, but it doesn’t matter.
The both films are great. But they all come from Alien: Engineers. This is was the one story, whose ideas were taken separately for Prometheus and Covenant.
"a mystery box"
Certainly and such Ambiguity is Good as it Fuels Debates and Speculation, but it also Nice to think that they had Answers but they just do-not show them....
But the Question would be DO THEY really have Answers?
To a degree i would say YES they did as FAR as the Xenomorph but it was left a bit Ambiguous to HOW the Connection was with the Inception... Then Prometheus had made things more Vague... but we could DRAW a Few Conclusions.. (prior to Alien Covenants change in part of the Origins, but i do think they have the A-Z of the Origins Planed out just they changed the GUY who did it).
They However Felt that the Bigger Story to be TOLD is the Engineers and Creation and other Themes... and as FAR as these go as FAR as Answers/Plans... then who knows, it appears they Struggled to Really come up with a A-Z of that Story that they could stick too... Prometheus raised some Questions with the Engineers/Humanity and other Creations that was BOLD with a Massive Scope... but did they and could they FIND a way to explore that Scope? I think they struggled because these Themes/Plots had become something that was a Poisoned Chalice to take on.
The Qeustion is before and after Lindelof was brought in, then did they have a Plan or Answers regarding the Engineers in relation to other things than just the Connection to the Horrors of LV-223.... i think these are AREAS that maybe they just CANT really keep to a Story they are Happy with.... comes across as they KEEP on Changing their Minds, or are making it up as they go ALONG.
Prometheus was FAR from Perfect... i think it should be Applauded for trying to expand the Franchise beyond Xenomorphs which in effect seemed to be indicated as a Biological Weapon they either Created, or a Result of a Biological Weapon they Created.
I have already said that in HINDSIGHT... they Toned Down what Alien Engineers had too much... they needed a Balance between Spaights and Lindeloffs work... But Hindsight is a Wonderful thing.
Regarding AC... i think it was a Error... but i Understand as to WHY it was done... it was ONE part having to Cave In and bring back the Beast and Answers... and in another Part maybe NOT having a idea on HOW to Continue away from ALIEN.
Does a Movie about Dr Shaw and David work? would you need other Human Characters and HOW do you introduce them if Dr Shaw and David are off to FIND the Engineers Home-World?
How do David and Dr Shaw interact with any Engineers they Discover, how likely would they Survive if these Engineers would NOT be pleased with them Turning Up?
So it was a Plot that was Difficult to deal with (a Sequel to Prometheus) and so Alien Covenant became a more Simple Story to Tell.
The Killing Off of Dr Shaw and the Engineers did take away a lot of the Path to Answers from Questions that a Sequel would maybe Answer...
But it was NOT to Worry as we would get the Answers well we would START the Path to the Xenomorph Origins and bring the Beast Back..... but having David as a Creator is something that has NOT sat well with Fans..
Its a BITTER PILL to Swallow but One that i have Accepted and am not that Effected by... but a lot of people think otherwise.
For me it FITS well.. Perfectly with the Themes/Arc of David and Prometheus... i just feel that having him CREATE a Ultramorph would have Fitted the Themes just as WELL but Maintain the Xenomorph Origins as Ancient and also maybe a Mystery.
"the plot suddenly changed when Peter Wayland appeared! And now this film not about origin of mankind, but about a man who wants to become immortal"
Its interesting you bring that UP because to a degree then YES this was also one of the MAIN Themes.. a Theme that does-not have to Center around Weyland but a Theme in General.
On Multiple Levels it could have evolved to the Quest for Immortality, a Quest about Improving/Evolution, about Creation and WHY would you Create, it was about the HUBRIS of such things.... which could have been explored on Multiple Layers..
These are what i find Interesting, there are many ways to Speculate about these, and HOW they could be Explored.
So the Engineers were KILLED OFF and Dr Shaw... this does not mean those Themes are Dead, because they are IN PART continued with Davids Arc.... and it would have been Interesting to see how they are Expanded on Next... which Sadly we wont see i dont think.
What RS had indicated about a Sequel seemed interested, but it would seem Disappointing to those who want more Xenomorphs or a Revelation that David does-not Create them, and a Disappointment to those who DONT want to have a Story that uses David as Center Point.
For me i think they could be Interesting... i have discussed such things a lot on here...
What are the Alternatives?
1) David Turns the Covenant into a Xenomorph Laboratory and either.
a) Things get out of Hand and the Ship Crashes or gets Stranded and the Marines Rock Up (well a prepared W-Y Ship).
b) Some Colonist break free and make a Desperate Attempt to Survive this House of Horrors and Escape with a Rescue ship arriving or they Escape in the Lander..
2) We forget about David and the Covenant and we go to a Mission to Planet 4 or LV-223 and have Xenomorphs and Answers that would indicate that David is NOT the Creator?
I suspect that Neither is the Case as FAR as what maybe RS would have Planned Certainly NOT as FAR as the Next Movie... but i am not sure a lot of ALIEN Fans would be a Fan of that kind of Installment...
RS said we are at least TWO Movies from ALIEN...
It just seems that a Good % of Fans may not want anything like this...
For ME? i am Perfectly Fine with that... i think the Franchise has to expand beyond Eggs and Xenomorphs.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I will say going back to the OT
That we may not see the Engineers Killed Off.... i just was not sure we would see much about them apart from seeing these guys.
The Problem is HOW do you introduce the Engineers again and WHAT kind of Engineers.
A lot depends on IF its revealed that Planet 4 is the ONLY World where the Engineers held a Civilization that was Ancient. By that if there are other Worlds that would have Cities like we saw in Alien Covenant, even if these Cities have a bit more of a Bio-Mechanical HR Giger look but they dont have to.
Looking at the SET-UP for the Sequel then its HOW do you visit such a World or Engineers?
Because the Base of the Plot would seem to be to FOLLOW what ever David does Next, but it seems that some Engineers will Return but they would likely be a Returning Group who Discover the Destruction on Planet 4.
Ridley Scott said they would do so, and they would NOT be Pleased about what has Happened on Planet 4 with such a Plot Revelation and the Reaction to the AC Engineers, it would seem likely the Engineers who arrive would do so on Juggernauts and be the Same Kind as on LV-223.
So we would not really get much Answers about the Engineers as far as their Agenda, Culture. It will likely be those Military Enhanced Types that will likely be Explored and i guess the only way we would see any different would be via a Flash Back like Scene... but then its HOW would this be required for the Plot?
Unless we have a Future Movie where either David or Weyland-Yutani can get some Engineer Ships and be able to Pin-Point one of their other Worlds and OFF WE GO?
I have said this quite a bit.... but they NEVER had to go to show us Planet 4 being so CLOSE.. they could have had David and Dr Shaw travel to a FAR FAR away World.
But how do you introduce more Humans? I mentioned quite a bit that can we assume the Following?
1) The Earth is the ONLY place where Humans had been Seeded? and was Earth our Origin?
2) Could the Engineers had taken some Humans from Earth and placed them on other Worlds?
Imagine if Dr Shaw arrived at a Place where Humans and Engineers seemed to LIVE in Harmony some place FAR FAR away?
Off-course things can GO TO POT... how do the Engineers react to David? would they be Concerned at what Influence that Dr Shaw and her Faith could have on those Humans?
There was a lot of Potential... than to just END UP with us Chasing the Dragon.
I just think we would ONLY be limited to the LV-223 Types who will only have one Agenda.... DESTROY and ASK no Questions.. or a FEW. There is nothing WRONG with those Guys... its just i cant see them doing much more than HULK SMASH! Which would be such a Limitation on a Enigmatic Race.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017