As we all know, at the end of Aliens the atmosphere processor and Hadley’s Hope are blown up. But what about the site where the juggernaut and the space jockey are? And what about the eggs?
The colonists at Hadley’s Hope have not encountered any problems until Newt’s parents get the coordinates (from Burke) to investigate a site. This site is far away from the colony. It takes the family some time to get there with their vehicle.
The climate on LV-426 is terrible. It’s cold (“well below zero”). There are poisonous fumes and no oxygen. The inside of the juggernaut is open to the climate outside. However, the eggs are situated far below ground level (“a cave or something”). It’s warm (“like the goddam tropics”). And the eggs are protected by “a layer of mist”.
The atmosphere processor is run by something “like a nuclear reactor”. When it explodes it obliterates Hadley’s Hope. But what about the alien site (which is far away and the eggs are well protected)?
What are your thoughts? Are the eggs still there? Still waiting . . .
There is one error in your interpretation of how the Space Jockeys fate unfolded...
The only hole in the floor was made when Ash tried to surgically remove the facehugger from Kane.
...the Face hugger was shown twice to have acid in its biology; in the above scene that you mentioned, and when it melted through Kane's visor. In this second scene, the Facehugger was either injured by Kane and its blood splashed ob Kanes visor, or as seen in Alien 3 the Facehugger has the ability to spit acid. Something I used a few years back in the Prometheus Absolution graphic novel I produced.
However, in reply to your postulation about the Space Jockeys fate, and somewhat undoing the work I did in the graphic novel I just linked, the fact remains that the Space Jockey is not an Engineer. Not only do the proportions of the Space Jockey and Engineer not match, but the SOS/warning beacon was also not in Indo-European.
If we are to accept that the eggs are indeed stored within a lower compartment of the vessel as you and BigDave have debated, then we can assume that after falling foul to it's own cargo, probably in a similar way to as depicted in the graphic novel I linked, the Space Jockey landed their vessel and broadcast their beacon.
Evidence also clearly shows that despite Davids assertions that he created the Xenomorph, the reality is that he did not. The Deacon is a proto-form of the Xenomorph, and the Xenomorph lifecycle that David "created" is shown in the urn room, not only on the relief showing a xenomorph in a crucifixion pose (with Facehuggers in the lower corners), but the Xenomorph egg is, as BigDave, also shown on the "paintings" on the urn room ceiling. IMO, Davids statement comes from his arrogance and descent into madness, as both Advent and the Covenant novelization also relate that David merely continued the work the Engineers had renounced - the Xenomorph is not his wolf, it is his realization of the wolf the Engineers chose to abandon.
What the Xenomorph is should be debated and explored in another thread, but where it comes from lies between the Engineers and the Space Jockeys. I still contend, whether or not the Space Jockey is a separate species or a member of the Xenomorph race, that its existence predates the Engineers and that the Engineers are merely primitive human slaves used by the Space Jockeys to continue their work of spreading the Xenomorph. The Engineers continued the Space Jockeys work by weaponizing the eggs by reducing them to their most basic form - the black goo. The Engineers established a base on LV-223 to be able to quickly travel to and from LV-426, grabbing the eggs and weaponizing them.
Thank for the link to the graphic novel, Gavin, beautiful work!
I agree with you that David did not create the xenomorph, at least he is not responsible for the eggs from LV426.
Regarding the Space Jockey's fate, I have some issues with the theory that the hole in the floor was created from the hold to the pilot chamber:
- the ship safety systems when carrying such dangerous cargo would not allow the facehuggers to walk freely through the vessel. For any failure of said safety systems the pilot would be warned and the back up systems activated. If we assume the pilot was ambushed while relaxing in his chair by a rogue facehugger, it means that ship was totally inadequate for the carriage of such cargo and the Engineers were bloody idiots that deserved their fate (so agree with David).
- I never perceived the facehuggers as being intelligent, they seem to act instinctively and usually leave the safety of the egg when they sense some host nearby, they have to be like that, for the highest rate of success of the xenomorph reproduction, otherwise facehuggers would roam randomly and die prematurely without accomplishing their mission. We've seen rogue facehuggers but only after an egg opened to a host, we could presume that the presence of a host can activate more facehuggers in a certain cache of eggs. To believe that a single facehugger voluntarily left the egg and made a hole in the ceiling of the hold, exactly where the pilot stood, would imply they possess the capacity to make an elaborate plan for their actions.
- a facehugger would not make such a big hole through the deck by spitting on the ceiling, he would not need so much space to crawl into the pilot chamber and when I try to mentally picture such an action, a facehugger spitting randomly at the walls and ceiling, I find it rather amusing. Why would he do that? On the other hand, if we imagine an injured facehugger in a pool of acid blood on deck, the hole it would make would be considerably bigger, of course with the risk to penetrate the outer hull of the ship below, but since the ship crash landed, it leaves room for that damage to have occured shortly before the impact with the ground.
- the facehugger indeed melted through Kane's visor, but Kane was not harmed by acid at all, so probably that saliva was not as destructive as its blood and it all happened in a controlled manner, only the visor was damaged. If its saliva was as corrosive as its blood, it would have probably been lethal for the host and it would have defeated the purpose. So, could that saliva make a hole through a deck?
- in Alien3 there is some liquid spilling from the egg, it could have been that liquid responsible for the melting of styrofoam or plastic? Or it comes from the facehugger that cracks the glass from Newt's cryopod? I don't remember seeing a facehugger spitting acid,. it is the juvenile alien hidden in the duct that spits acid on Murphy, eventually leading to his death, but it does it in self defense, like a cat. We could speculate that both xenomorph and facehugger saliva have same corrosive effects, but I pointed out above that facehugger saliva should have milder effects just because the facehugger has to attach itself to the face of a living host, without killing it, while the xenomorph is a fully developed weapon, everything that it is made of has the sole purpose to kill, including saliva.
I also believe that the scene from Alien Covenant, when Lope was attacked by the rogue facehugger was there to explain what could have happened to the pilot of derelict. The blood of the injured facehugger melted the stone floor.
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
Unless the Space Jockeys fate is shown in a future installment of the franchise, which might never happen, we could each argue our own theories until we are blue in the face. I could point out that the Facehuggers saliva would need to be variable, using weaker doses to subdue and access protected hosts (like Kane) with stronger doses to defend itself from possible predators.
There are also those that believe the hole in the platform was made by the Alien that birthed from the Space Jockey, and that Alien matured into a Queen and laid all of the eggs. Since Alien: Covenant there are some that now believe David becomes the Space Jockey and the Covenants colonists become the eggs. And chances are those that believe either of these or any other theory could debate with evidence as to why they believe their theory over and above any other.
This is speculation. There are some communities were members argue needlessly as to who is right and who is wrong, without realizing that everyone and no-one are both and neither. What I have always loved about our community, and why I have remained here for nearly eight years is that the Scified community understand this, and for the most part we can not only debate civilly but grow and adapt our theories over time from the assertions of others.
But, back to the topic in hand.
With Scott's prequels continuing to divide the fanbase, and because they seem to be, from Scott's comments, moving further away from the mythology of the Alien and toward chronicling David as a synthetic Lucifer, I still believe that Neill Blomkamp should make the next Alien movie, but that he should remove Ripley, Hicks, and Newt, and should focus the narrative toward Weyland-Yutani finally acquiring their prize only for the eggs, the subsequent birth Aliens being corrupted.
You're right, Gavin.
I'm sorry I got over excited about my theories, they are indeed only speculations.
Unfortunately, with Alien Day less than a week away, I don't have any feeling that we'll get any news from Fox, not a teaser, not a press conference announced, zippo!
That's very frustrating.
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
Regarding the space jockey and his fate, it seems likely (although the size isn’t right) that it’s supposed to be an engineer because of the likeness with the engineer in Prometheus. This engineer also raps himself up in the pilot chair of the juggernaut by the pyramid mound.
It seems probable that the space jockey left the pilot chair and went down into the cargo hold for some reason, got face hugged and when he woke up went up into the pilot chair again. Once there, the chestburster starts to make its way out and the pilot sets the warning beacon.
However, underneath the space jockey there must be a hollow space for the whole cockpit to be lowered down into. Also, the iris door must have room for the shutters to retract into. It seems that the hole should be further out, doesn’t it?
There are some differences between the two Juggernauts, besides the cryopods, there is the system to release the bombs, unnecessary for the derelict, so one might be the bomber type, the other one, the military cargo carrier type, like these two:
The shape of the hold allows space for the cockpit to be lowered down, like in this schematic done by BigDave:
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
Here are the three schools of thought regards the Space Jockey, although for each there are variations...
#1 - The Space Jockey is an ancient alien that while transporting the eggs fell victim to its own Cargo, landed on LV-426 and initiated beacon before birthing the Chestburster.
#2 - The Space Jockey is an Engineer whose fate is shared with the Space Jockey of #1.
#3 - The Space Jockey is David, who despite leaving Planet 4 aboard the USCSS Covenant somehow (LV-223 maybe) morphs the 2000+ colonists of the Covenant into eggs (the black goo maybe) planting them aboard a Juggernaut. Then, despite being Synthetic falls victim to one of the eggs, forcing David to land on LV-426, whereby he then births a Chestburster.
Fans of Covenant seem to believe that #3 is the most likely direction the next Alien movie will take. I think it goes without saying that this would divide/fracture the fandom even further, and could damage the franchise irrecoverably.
Prometheus suggested although Covenant seemed to undo this, the possibility of #2. However, the retconning of the Aliens and the Space Jockeys origins created and widened the division in the fandom. Although not as damaging as #3, if #2 was chosen a lot of the fandom would lose faith in the future of the franchise.
While some may call it wishful thinking #1 is the direction that would appease most of the fandom and go a long way to repairing the division and loss of faith among the fandom the prequels have generated.
However, the issue with having The Space Jockey retain its alien nature is that this would mean that the Engineers are not the advanced alien race many assume them to be. Yet, I believe this can be answered from evidence in the prequels that the Engineers are not an advanced alien race but merely primitive human slaves taken from Earth and given Paradise in return for continuing the Space Jockey races work.
Of course, this begs the question of why would beg the question as to why the Space Jockeys were transporting the eggs, and why they would to use said eggs against other lifeforms. Are the Space Jockeys part of the Xenomorph race, and ensuring their races continued existence or did they create the Alien as an elaborate form of terraformation".
As for #3, besides how David would fit in the huge space suit and helmet, how would he attract a facehugger? At least so far, David's eggs have only triggered (opened) when humans (living, biological organisms) have come near them (Oram, Cole). They have ignored David.
@chli Well we know that someone loses his right over his own DNA if he fails to pay for his Walter unit and it is highly likely that David swapped bodies with Walter. So if Walter is partly organic the hugging is doable.
An interesting theory, but from what we have seen from the synthetics David, Ash, Bishop, and Call, one could argue that your theory is unlikely because no other synthetics were part-organic, except if you subscribe to the theory that the "Bishop" that arrived on Fiorina 161 was a Bishop II synthetic as opposed to the human Michael Bishop.
However, there is another possibility that actually supports Walter being part organic, although it is conjecture. With the possible exception of the aforementioned Bishop, Walter and David are the first known examples of physically identical synthetics in an Alien movie. It could be, and this is a theory, that when Weyland-Yutani picked up the signal sent by David/Shaw, or possibly even the advent signal, they purposefully sent the USCSS Covenant with a Walter onboard in that direction. It's even possible the neutrino burst was the company's doing. David would see the Covenant as a present from the company after he sent the advent signal. However, wanting the Xenomorph for themselves and to cross David because of his threats against mankind, they send an upgraded David unit, AKA Walter, who unknown even to Walter has organic components. Being an upgrade the company hope that Walter will kill David, but as a contingency plan should Walter fail, and considering in such an instance David would swap bodies with Walter he would unknowingly be at risk of falling foul to his alleged creation.
"the fact remains that the Space Jockey is not an Engineer"
I think this is a subject for some debate, its something people could counter argue with the Flaws we have seen, as you had indicated, the Size and Proportions are OFF, regarding the Indo-European i think this is something we can maybe overlook, because the Engineers Writing Systems (we saw THREE kinds) could show the Engineers use Various Languages. Ridley Scott had indicated the Engineers are the SPACE JOCKEY.. but until we have any Conclusion to the Prequels, then this is something to counter argue against Ridley Scott and could be CHANGED.
"and the Xenomorph lifecycle that David "created" is shown in the urn room"
I think again its one of those things to debate, i see NO evidence of Xenomorph in Prometheus but clues to something that is connected, the Mural Organism is NOT quite a Xenomorph, the Life-Cycle and Face Huggers would appear to indicate that Various Forms of Face Hugger Experiments were used until they obtained the Desired Result in the Mural... The Egg was shown, but it was so brief it was easily missed and never clear, HOWEVER.. the Creature holding the Egg does not have its Head Shown and its Arms/Hands are the same as the Fresco Organism with the the Engineer. When taking Alien Engineers into context as a Rosetta Stone, i feel we are shown that the Engineers Encountered a Organism they had then Experimented on to Produce the Xenomorph (at that time of Prometheus), but it appeared they changed the idea to David... its a case of will we continue this path? The Novel did indicate David had found a Egg as it stood.. but this was ADF's own interpretation of one of the Drafts he had to work with.... we have to WONDER was this a Wild Interpretation or was their any Actual Proof in the Drafts that Lead him to this Direction, or had someone working on the Project had indicated such to him?
A Good point could be that NONE objected and the indication in the NOVEL had not been Redacted/Changed by FOX.
Regarding the Introduction of the Space Jockey as another Race, or even as a Prior Slave to another Race, and the comments regarding this GAVIN... i think something like this would be a ideal route to explore.
"the ship safety systems when carrying such dangerous cargo "
Good Points daliens, you have to ask about WHAT Safeguards was there, a lot comes down to HOW Exactly did the whole incident happen and WHERE the Cargo was (Separate Hold or on the Ship). We could raise the same points with the LV-223 Outbreak too! (Safegaurds)
The Engineers were either NOT that wise... or we could ponder Sabotage?
Excellent Point about the Face Hugger, how would ONE get loose... the Only Conclusion i could give for the Space Jockey Fate, would be he detected a Problem and he went to Investigate, (Maybe one of the Fields was down) and he then took a Fall into the Egg Cargo, his Mask Came Off and he awoke seeing enough Evidence to know he was infected and then rushed to the Pilot Chair to Quarantine the Ship/Cargo. This assumes however the Eggs where already on the Ship/Cargo Hold and the Space Jockey was ALONE.
Then we would have to ask about the HOLE... so a lot comes down to HOW do the Eggs become activated, it appears that the presence of a Organism works, but also Touch! So how would one get loose, and end up in the Pilot Room is a Good Question?
We could speculate had the Space Jockey Grabbed and Crushed/Wounded the Chest Buster, but then his Hands where on the Pilot Controls, so he could have been Chest Busted on his Final Approach, Held his Hands over the area of the Chest, and Grabbed the Chest Buster and Killed/Wounded it, then resumed to grab the controls.
But that would assume the event (Chest Busting) is something the Pilot could Survive for a Short While! (not such a Plot Hole for a Synthetic Pilot... but please NO).
Could the Chest Buster had no-where to go and died and its body Decomposed and Melted through the Floor? Unlikely as the Nostromo Crew managed to enter and reach the Pilot Room, we have to assume a Chest Buster would have been able to escape that Room too.
Certainly things are subject to change... i mean 5 years ago we can safely assume the Android Creates the Xenomorph and thus NO Eggs on LV-426 certainly more than 18 years prior to ALIEN is a Plot that was not conceived at this time... it was considered a Ancient Event.
I think you raise a GREAT point about the Eggs, and Queen laid them.... maybe but certainly NOT as far as the Space Jockey Chest Buster was a Queen. So indeed i think we have to look at the Blue Myst, it was there for a Reason and i think Regardless of the Reveal of the Eggs Origins... they would have to had been deliberately placed in that Cargo Hold prior to the Space Jockey's Mission
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"Fans of Covenant seem to believe"
LOL thats got to be a small number ;) but i do think we could be onto this kind of path (HAD we had a continuation) and if we did would they address the Size Difference? Here is where (sorry if this goes off Topic) but this is were the Themes of Prometheus could be at play, and Agenda of David as far as RS comments about AI (Replicants) how the next movie would be about AI and not the Xenomorph, and "what kind of a world" would David Create, maybe looking into the Raised by Wolves Plot too..
RS said that Prometheus was about ( among other things) Immortality, now IF our Peter Weyland found a way to Transfer his SOUL into a Synthetic, then in effect Weyland would CHEAT Death and become Immortal, but failing to achieve this he had NO CHOICE but to trust Dr Shaw and her findings in that Meeting our Creators could Guarantee him his Immortality.
David has ONE arm... will he play his role with just that? So we could ponder that David could transfer his AI SOUL into another Synthetic thats a Bio-Mechanical Synthetic Construct. Or maybe into the Body of another being, be that one he creates, or one that the Engineers Create.
The Size Difference would be Problem... unless the Body David uses is LARGE. But i think the Size Difference would always be considered just a Oversight... and well the Space Jockey had GROWN out of his Chair! (Plot Convenience)
As for Option 2, i dont think there is much Harm and to me it does-not Ret-con Aliens or the Space Jockey, especially if we look at HR Gigers concepts.... The Space Jockey/Engineers were Intended to be 12-15ft Tall and its just a shame in Hindsight that Ridley Scott did not use any LOTR/Hobbit (Game of Thrones) effects to make our Engineers 10ft and its a shame that Alien Covenant they looked even more Human and had a lack of HR Giger/LV-223 Bio-Mechanical Technology.
"but merely primitive human slaves taken from Earth and given Paradise in return for continuing the Space Jockey races work."
I think similar to this is plausible... certainly as far as the Engineers being Created or Discovered and used for a Sacrificial Purpose... It really does depend on WHO is at the Top of this Hierarchy and their Agenda!
Then its a case of WHOEVER is revealed at the TOP, we have to ask WHAT connection they have to the Black Goo, the Xenomorph or what ever Organism it Originated from.
On one hand i see clues (Prometheus Themes and Agenda of the Alien Franchise) that at some point the Engineers or a Fraction had came across a Organism, and they had looked at its TRAITS as being something they could incorporate into their Genetics and Technology.
The Prequels could suggest a high indication of this... but this would certainly take the Origins to being FAR less ALIEN than most fans would like.
Introducing a Sinister Hierarchy and Agenda, and a ALIEN one, where our Engineers had STOLEN their Masters Technology would be a better route to take, was something like this considered? Who knows what a actual Prometheus 2 would have uncovered ;)
Regarding the WALTER-MORPH.... i would not rule out that this was the explanation for how Davids Organic Xenomorph gains its more Mechanical Aesthetics...
ELDEN in Fire and Stone was a Synthetic Construct and got infected with the Black Goo, so we cant rule out the reveal that WALTER or another incoming Synthetic are Part Organic/Part Synthetic
We have to remember David just needs to Perfect his Queen, and some may think we are going to get a Queen Xenomorph? Maybe that could not be the case.
Maybe they can use some unused concepts.. even if they are NOT from the movies... my Alien: Ascension/Absolution which was my work in Progress Alien Covenant 2/3 was to run with the unused ELDEN concept which was a Female at First!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
There is actually evidence in Alien: Covenant that David did not create the Xenomorph. This was brought to my attention in a Youtube video which shows that the novelization for the movie was based on more than merely a draft of the script and that a component of the Engineers having worked on the Xenomorphs before Davids alleged creation of the Xenomorph was present on set in a prop, which leads me to believe that its possible the assertion in the novelization that David continued the work of the Engineers may have even been filmed...
The above egg and its Facehugger are said to have been too aggressive by the Engineers and was euthanized, likely leading to the development of the urns and glass vials used to weaponize the Xenomorph in a more controllable and safer (for the LV-223 Engineers) form.
It is from this egg that David reversed the Engineers work, recreating the egg and Facehugger from the black goo he was familiar with.
Which ties into the theory that the Engineers gathered the eggs from LV-426, further supporting that the derelict Juggernaut on LV-426 is the source of the Engineers weapon and that there could be more Space Jockey Juggernauts with cargo bays full of eggs out there.
@Gavin If my theory is not valid why do they need human DNA for creating Walter androids, which you can lose if you can't pay anymore? (as you can see in the Meet Walter viral).
Why do you think that there is or can be made one great theory? WY are not confirmed to make androids in the first 2 movies. Ash is a Hyperdyne Systems 120-A/2 model and Bishop from 3 could be a real human if we don't consider AVP as cannon (as most likely not many do). We don't know from what Call was made if I recall correctly.
You can have your own cannon but I highly doubt you can make something coherent from something incoherent. And if Walter was sent to Planet 4 to kill David, why did he let him speak so much? Your conspiracy theory does not convince me at all.
if we don't consider AVP as cannon (as most likely not many do)
Regardless of whether, you think that the AVP is a canon or not. Bishop from Alien 3 is not Weyland. He is not even another director of the company! He just an engineer.
I agree, concerning the problems of David being the creator of the xenomorph, Gavin. There is an interesting discrepancy between Scott’s film AC and Foster’s novelization. Foster is more into the ancient technology of the engineers - the creators of both the pathogen and the xenomorph. There are also old and savage rituals comprising human sacrifice - the old ways which the engineers on Planet 4 have left behind long ago. In David’s lab, there is indeed an old petrified egg with a facehugger in it which David says (to Oram) that he wants to reproduce.
Scott has long been inclined towards the dangers of AI and synthetics (Blade Runner, Prometheus and AC) and the dangers of contacting extraterrestrials (probably influenced by Stephen Hawking).
@Leto I've re-watched the ending of the 2003 special cut of Alien 3 and that Bishop says he was the designer of the original and from the dialog it is kind of implied that he works for WY (the first time it is said that WY produces androids).
He bleeds red and is in pain and according to https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Michael_Bishop the character was intended as human.
Yep. Michael Bishop works for WY - he is an engineer. Not a big boss. He is human. But not the descendant of Weyland. Sorry but, every time someone mentions AvP - a big confusion happens.
This is the main reason why I use WY Report, not a fandom wiki. There's just a bunch of different information from separate universes: Alien and AvP.
Yes, Ash and Bishop were made by Hyperdyne Systems, and Call was an Auton (A synthetic made by synthetics), and yes the inference is that the Bishop from the USCSS Patna is human. I only mentioned IF he was a synthetic, as some believe, it would be the only other time we have seen two identical synthetics, and if Michael Bishop had been synthetic, the red blood could have been organic. Either way, Walter being on the crew of the Covenant raises eyebrows - the signal David sent as shown in Advent was sent before the events of the movie, like with the Nostromo, and possibly Hadley's Hope Weyland-Yutani greenlight the Covenant mission to Origae 6 knowing it will pass by the source of Davids signal. Was the Covenant a gift to appease David, or with Walter being onboard, was it instead a Trojan Horse?
As for Walter, being identical in terms of appearance to David shows that he does not necessarily have DNA in him, the trailer which you mention makes mention of DNA as a screening process (a futuristic equivalent of a status check for a credit card).
Walter being onboard the Covenant suggest some form of a contingency plan on Weyland-Yutanis part - being superior he should win in combat against David, if not the postulation that Walter could unknowingly be part organic would screw David over if David attempted to use Walters body to sneak aboard the Covenant, given the nature of the recreated organism (the Xenomorph) of which he gloats about in the advent transmission.
Yes, the franchise is a collection of pieces that don't all fit together but is it too much to hope for a possible theory or collection of theories that can bridge together the parts into a cohesive whole - I think not. As for conspiracy theory, wasn't that the point of Ash's inclusion into the script of Alien by Giler, to add the corporate conspiracy angle (an overused trope in '60's and '70's science fiction).
I think that Advent, in part answers the question of why W-Y wanted the Alien so badly - for the Nano AI Virus technology it is built from. The Covenant is the first (in terms of the timeline) example of the company doing whatever it takes, no matter the cost, to attain that technology.
I think there are a lot of Clues that should not had been clues, but as they are there they can be interpreted and used as such when they could be merely Red Herrings.
IGNORING what ADF had put in his Novel (it would be interesting to see what made him put that, his idea/interpretation or was it in a early draft?).
If we throw that out, then Davids Workshop still has drawings of a Classic Chest Buster? Evidence of David actually discovering the Ancient Xenomorph? Or did he create that also but chose to Evolve it to his Alien Covenant version... but then WHY does the Less-Evolved one (well his prior one) turn up on the Derelict?
But then in his Workshop is a VERY Bio-Mechanical Specimen as far as a Drawing that is more Mechanical than the Xenomorph.
Did David Create this? Did the Engineers? or was it just something David had in his mind, that he just drew for Fun or as a aim to achieve... doing his own Concepts for what he may wish to achieve?
If so could the image of the Classic Xenomorph and Egg be the same?
If Alan had came across such sketches when working on the NOVEL they could have lead him to ASSUME that David discovers the Preexisting Egg.
These are concepts etc by Hatton and Hallett and many may have been added to the Work-shop for nothing more than the LOOKS COOL effect, which could lead us to some conclusions that are not intended. (Prometheus Mural maybe likewise).
Davids notes do talk of a Ancient Cruel Sacrificial Ritual, but gives no indication to what... so its ambiguous... was this for Xenomorphs or Similar, for Black Goo Experiments (i mean they are going to need Test Subjects) or could it have been to Seed Worlds like the Sacrificial Engineer?
I find it VERY Stupid for the Engineers to contain and use Xenomorphs on that Planet if it is their Home-world... you would expect them to take Sacrifices to say another World like LV-223 and conduct them there!
But i guess we cant rule such things out!
My interpretation of Planet 4 and the Hanger etc and Juggernauts Purpose is VERY different to the Derelict. And well also what they ended up using them for in Prometheus... i saw them Originally as maybe Advanced Seeding Ships.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Good Point about the Bomber and Cargo Ship, i think we have to look at the Derelict as a Bomber and ASK! How does that Work?
To me dropping Eggs from Height seems unlikely, for them to all LAND up right and suffer no Damage? Nah i cant buy that! so you have to ASK about HOW are the Eggs deployed as a Weapon?
The Black Goo is a FAR more Superior Weapon IMO!
While we have had the Company willing to Sacrifice Innocent and unaware in order to obtain the Xenomorph or Spread it.... I dont quite buy the David informs W-Y about Planet 4 so they send out the Covenant to Planet 4 purely to use the Colonist for Davids Experiments..
Its a bit LAZY and a Coincidence from a writing perspective, but then i have not been impressed with Logans Writing at all, not for Alien Covenant... Looking at the Advent, then this again seems to be just a Lazy and Plot Convenient Route to get Thousands of Eggs...
Such a Plot as they knew David was there, would imply that its likely Walter would be a Secret Agent who was sent to obtain the Xenomorph and then GET-RID of David
I found Alien Covenant had too many lazy Plot Conveniences and not Very Imaginative really, which gave me some concerns that John Logan had been penning Alien Covenants Sequel!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I suppose the derelict is the cargo ship, not the bomber, I did not see in that hold any systems to deploy the bombs like we see in Alien Covenant, when David wipes out the Engineers from the sky. Also it would not help throwing the eggs like bombs, as you well said it.
On the other hand, we should consider the eggs, despite their shape, are not really eggs so there is no need of an egg laying queen. The eggs are like a shell meant to protect / preserve / contain the facehugger, or like individual incubators. They are ovoid in shape and organic, but their role is same as the urns are for the vials containig the black goo.
How to deploy the eggs as weapons? That's a good question. I believe you need an army of androids to do that or ROVs. Another way would be to capture hosts from the target location, have them facehugged and the return them where they were taken from, the xenomorphs would then do the cleansing. That's a bit tricky and cannot work forever, even if the xenomorph is a very resilient and its killing efficiency is outstanding, it is not invincible, we saw Daniels killing 2 without any weapons. It makes me wonder if this theory with the xenomorph as bioweapon is a valid one, I mean they can win a battle, but not the war. And when you have a devastating weapon as the black goo, why bother with the xenomorph? Even the LV223 Engineers wanted to wipe out the Earth with the black goo.
I know that most fans would disagree, but unless the xenomorph is an ancient, natural species, it makes sense to me that it can be the result of a derailed android who dreamt to be the creator of a perfect organism.
I watched again Covenant and yes, we are told that David created the eggs from the basement, he only lacked one final ingredient: a human host.
Regarding the Engineers' wolf and lamb, mentioned by David in Advent, I now believe they are the 2 variants of black goo, the one that destroys, used by David to destroy the Engineers, and the one that gives life following a consensual sacrifice of an Engineer. A ritualic sacrifice that would cleanse all the Engineers of their sins.
As for the sketches with the classic egg, chestburster and xenomorph from David's lab, I believe they are the concepts he wishes to achieve. Let's not forget that even though the classic chestburster has a primitive look compared to the one from Covenant, it is the biomechanical chestburster and we are not yet there, even Ridley Scott said the evolution of xenomorph is "nearly over", so we are yet to witness the creation of the biomechanical xenomorph.
I will only add that in an interview from 2017, before Covenant was released, Ridley Scott said: “We’ve come back with a very simple idea. Who made them? No one ever asked that question. [Alien] was just about there it is; it exists. And this is what it is … So we’ve reinvented the idea of Alien, I think, which is that Covenant gets us a step closer to who and why was this thing designed to make human beings. And if you think it’s them [the Engineers], you’re dead wrong.”
Whether it is lazy writing or not, it fits with the movie/franchise - Alien: Covenant is lazily written throughout, so the likelihood that the screenwriter (Logan) would use an established trope of the Alien franchise is high.
Regardless, the Advent message, though an extra, was sent to Weyland-Yutani by David sometime during the latter part of his ten year period on Planet 4. In the message, David clearly threatens the company and mankind, while gloating about his "achievements". Considering the Prometheus extra that states that 10 years or more prior Weyland Corp had discovered the derelict Juggernauts beacon and determined its source to be LV-426, then it is almost certain that Weyland-Yutani would have been able to locate the source of Davids signal as being Planet 4.
But how would Weyland-Yutani respond? Do they send a colonial marine detachment or a colony ship? Ridley has stated he wants to distance his prequels from the sequel to his original so that all but eliminates the possibility of colonial marines. However, as Prometheus showed, Ridley is not against recycling elements of his previous movies, so sending a colony ship towards Origae 6, knowing it would pass by Planet 4 not only fits in with this, but also Logans writing style and future behavior of the company.
As to whether or not Walter was planted onboard purposefully - this not only mirrors Ash's backstory in Alien but also explains why they used Michael Fassbender as opposed to another actor. They know David is THE David from the Prometheus mission, so why would they send a Walter unit which is in terms of appearance identical to David? As a contingency plan to either eliminate, neutralize or subdue David and acquire the technology he has discovered.
Regards the Egg I mentioned it can be seen in the movie, and is situated on a plinth denoting that this egg is of some importance.
Together with statements from Scott (see chli's above reply), and Advent this heavily suggests that Davids assertions that he created the Xenomorph are a lie, or more correctly a delusion. Consider for a moment that when Oram asks if David engineered the Xenomorph David only replies with "the devil makes work for idle hands." Furthermore, David refers to the eggs in the basement as his "work", his "successes", never his creation. David only asserts that he ha created a perfect organism to Walter after Walter reveals David that the verse David claimed was written by Ozymandias was in fact written by (Percy) Shelley.
Walter is an upgrade to David, the next model. Yet David asserts that he can create, feel emotion and dream, processes Walter does not possess. We know from the viral marketing for Prometheus that Davids emotions are merely mimicry, whereas his creative and imaginative assertions are delusions generated from a corrupted, failing synthetic mind. Walter asserts all of this to David, but David refutes it in the same way someone suffering from insanity believes they are sane. David is broken, either from age or from possible contamination from the black goo - remember rather than serve Shaw, he destroyed the means from which she could have got the answers she sought and then murdered her and mutilated her corpse. I believe in medical terms David would be diagnosed as CUCKOO.
Regards how a Space Jockey or egg carrying Juggernaut would deploy its cargo of eggs there is another possibility. If as many of us seem to prefer, that the Juggernaut are living vessels, then like the Queen Alien herself, maybe the Juggernaut has some form of ovipositor/appendage that extends from beneath the vessel as it hovers over the ground that can "lay" eggs, either one at a time or in batches.
Regards Scott's statement. This only infers that the Engineers did not create the Xenomorph. It does not assert that David created the Xenomorph. Considering the egg I mentioned before and pictured above, it is likely that Scott (if he is not contradicting himself again, as he has in the past) is referring to the Space Jockey or some other party we have not been shown.
As far as I can see, David sent the Advent message from USCSS Covenant after the disaster on Planet 4. I don't think they were able to contact anybody from there (marooned like Crusoe). That's why David sent the rogue Shaw-signal, hoping somebody that happened to pass by would intercept it.
Well wasn’t there some idea that the ship was grown? I think that idea is sort of bizarre but it seems to fit into the bio(logical)-mechanical thing. What if the pilot is an Engineer and the Engineers in some way have learned to use some way to produce things in a way that is bio-mechanical. This is a reply to your comment april 16 about how the Juggernauts are created.
"It makes me wonder if this theory with the xenomorph as bioweapon is a valid one, I mean they can win a battle, but not the war. And when you have a devastating weapon as the black goo, why bother with the xenomorph?"
I think the points you raised are Excellent! I think we do need to consider the Xenomorph as a Bio-Weapon is Flawed, it would be like using NUKE, by that if you wanted to Take Over a City, then using NUKES would render the City of NO use for a Long Long time, but if you ONLY intend to KILL all the occupants/threat from that City then the NUKE is the (Be all that ends of of our Weapons).
IF the Xenomorph was a Weapon would it be like Genetically Engineering something for the Purpose of Destruction, we could look at Many Organisms on Earth that could be Destructive if we could Engineer them in a Certain way... Imagine ANTS/TERMITES the Size of Elephants, Imagine a Tiger thats Twice the Size, had Venom thats more Toxic than any other Organism on Earth, and this Creature can Fly and Swim..... if such a Creature could Procreate then it would POSE a major threat, especially to all NATIVE Organisms (larger than say a Mouse) apart from maybe Mankind who have Technology on their Side.
The Xenomorph could be similar a Killing Machine, and at the Time it was Created (prior to Alien Covenant) then what chance would Mankind from Hundreds of years ago have against this? NONE!
But such a Organism as the Xenomorph for it to be a Perfect Bio-Weapon would have a Half-Life, it would have a Limited Time before they DIE.... But if they dont have this then as a Bio-Weapon it really is something you use to DESTROY a World/Race without little chance of having any use for the said Worlds.
Ridley Scott said they are used to CLEAN up worlds.. which is rather odd, as they will Clean Up Worlds... but then that World would be of NO use unless you have a Weapon that can then KILL the Xenomorph... a Antidote of Sorts.
The Black Goo is more effective, but it has the potential to affect areas that maybe you would not... this would be like dropping a Viral/Pathogen Weapon that would KILL all Life and Spread... imagine if you had a Weapon that makes all animals it infects Zombies that then can infect others, thats one sure way to Destroy a WHOLE World.
Again Great if your desire is to Destroy!
The Black Goo, well the Original idea of the GOO and we can maybe include the Radical AI (all in one Goo) is a Creation/Hybrid and Evolutionary Tool that when misused can Destroy!
I think it would take a Big Post to explain what i mean about that.... but Alien Engineers Scarabs will give the Answer in a NUT-Shell.
"As for the sketches with the classic egg, chestburster and xenomorph from David's lab, I believe they are the concepts he wishes to achieve"
I think its just some cool concept art that Hatton and Hallet had done that was added for COOL Factor, which then can lead us to speculate all sorts... Maybe its his Ambition/End Game or he could have created these Classic Chest Busters and then Evolved them, and at some point the Engineers Collect earlier versions of them that end up on LV-426.. Its all open to debate.
I think each Fan can use certain things to Counter Argue and Support their Conclusions, Wishes or Theories.. Some things are NOT so Set-in-Stone that their can be NO Shadow of a Doubt! The Lander in Alien Covenant is Destroyed, Oram is Dead, Lope is Dead etc.. they are Set-in-Stone (find no evidence to say they are not)
Other things people can find counter arguments with.. Depending what you use for your Evidence and how you Interpret it, can lead to all sorts of Conclusions...
For example Ridley Scott says David is the Creator... but a Counter Argument is that Nothing was Clearly said to that Extent in the Movie, and well David was a bit Bonkers, he got that Author of the Poem Wrong so we cant take anything he said as Correct! But this is like also looking at the Engineers Suits being a Different Color and Size to the Space Jockey as definite proof they are NOT the same, and despite what Ridley Scott claimed to be... so EVERY Flaw, could be used as Support/Counter Argument.
I am drawn to conclude that this is the Direction they was THEN taking (Alien Covenant) as the David Creates it FITS with the Hubris of Creation, and allowing said Creation Free-Will/Knowledge and then your Creation Rebels. Some Fans maybe dont see or accept this, or have interest in such themes...
I certainly think we can all agree this route is ERROR of Judgement.
I think IF we saw FOX have 100% Confidence to go the Planed route and Produced the Sequels that Ridley Scott had planned.... many Fans would be left VERY Disappointed, and it would be shown to be wishful thinking that David is NOT the Creator, and that the Space Jockey is NOT a Engineer... it could GET worse... David the Space Jockey! or Daniels lol
The Original Idea/Plan was the Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon that was Created/Engineered by the Space Jockey, and WHILE this may be changed for Alien Covenant, the Sequels are in LIMBO and their is NO Reason why they CANT change their minds again!
But its best to be prepared for the Worst ;)
I do think some of these replies etc are going a bit Off Topic, which i am Sorry for my part in that to the OP.. these are more suited to the David did-not create Topic.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"- Alien: Covenant is lazily written throughout,"
Some of it i would say yeah, Convenient and easy i would say, certainly. Which is why the comments by RS about the next one would NOT be about the Xenomorph, were a bit odd as following the same Convenient/Lazy Plot of AC you would Assume the Next Movie is.... Create Thousands of Eggs and get them on a Engineer Ship and then were are almost their to the Fateful Event of the Space Jockey.
I think we could ponder what you said as a way to look at things (Covenant is just another Nostromo, and Walter just another Ash). I think we need to be careful sometimes about Cherry Picking certain things. I dont mean any disrespect by this.
Things Change.... 1979 ALIEN... Queens Did-Not Exist, there was NO proof they did... but then without the DC Cut and Source Material it was something that was open to be explored and introduce... so the Queen was born.
Looking at Source Material and Deleted Scene you could Raise a Argument that there should NOT be a Queen, but the Queen was shown and it has to be accepted (i agree with). No Egg Morph in the Franchise (Theatrically), means this can be discounted... until shown OTHERWISE.
My point in Context... is while the Prometheus Extras did indicate about the knowledge of a Signal on LV-426, there is a lot that the Prometheus Viral and Extras had shown.. that to some extent appeared to be RET-CONNED to a degree (Happy Birthday David vs AC Prologue) so the prior Knowledge of the Signal on LV-426 could be considered as NEVER happened... unless it was shown in Prometheus.
Looking at the Advent it appeared this was sent via a W-Y Interface and so using Technology after the Prometheus mission and is VERY likely sent on the Covenant after David had left Planet 4... The KICKER is we have to remember David is a Robot... his Eyes work like Camera, so he can basically take anything he has seen and then Edit it like we could with Photos, Videos we use with Cameras etc.. and then add a Voice Over/Blog to go with them and then UPLOAD this and send it using the Covenant Ship.
I am not trying to be Argumentative or Condescending (or implying anyone thinks i am) i think reasons for such counter debates is to Suspend the Disbelief of the MESS that they have made with some Elements of the Prequels... we can only HOPE that the Creative Department who will work on any Future Installment do take on the Likes/Dislikes of the Fanbase such as on sites like this, and Gauge what Route to go and they have to either go with what the MASSES would like, or stick to whatever they want to do, but be prepared to Disappoint Fans...
There is NO future movies that can please everyone, that would be Impossible, all they can do is see what the Majority would want.. and assess what would make the most $$$$$ They Felt Alien Covenant would do this... ONE major flaw is the David Creates the Xenomorph Angle..... the other how exploring Dr Shaw and any interaction with the Engineers is what a lot of Prometheus Fans wanted..
Alien Covenant thought it would please Many by giving things to please all Fanbases... but it Did-Not give enough to each and was Flawed in other areas too.
I will leave the Bonkers David for now ;)
Regarding IF the company knew about David and Prometheus and where and what David had intended, prior to Alien Covenant.... if their Agenda was Obtain the Xenomorph, then maybe they could send in the Covenant, i dont think that would be ideal though... But who knows HOW wicked the Company are..
They surely would FIRST send out Synthetics to obtain the Organism/Eggs, certainly with a Contingent of Military and Scientist, but also have a KILL-SWITCH for the AI in case any become Rogue/Influenced by David.
Then when they get the Organism, they would set up a Outpost on some World, (like Hill and Gilers ALIEN) and then send in a few unsuspecting Humans at a time, or even use Convicts like we have in Alien 3, we can assume that IF they obtained Ripleys Queen from Alien 3, then those Convicts on Fiorina 161 would have been used as Test Subjects.... just as with the Plot to Alien Resurrection
IF we ignore the Company had any Knowledge prior to the Advent... then you would assume they would send in a Synthetic/Military Mission to Planet 4 and LV-223.
I will add that EXPLORING the Derelict to be Ancient and FAR older than the Engineers Technology, then having the Ship have some Bio-Mechanical Ovipositor/Appendage to LAY or even just to Transfer Eggs from Cargo to the Ground could WORK if we ever take such a route..
Until we see Davids Xenomorphs without a Shadow of the Doubt get loaded onto the Derelict and then we get the SOS Signal and some kind of Clue/Answer that shows Davids Eggs then its all OPEN to Change...
"Regards Scott's statement. This only infers that the Engineers did not create the Xenomorph. It does not assert that David created the Xenomorph"
True.... but Ridley Scott had mentioned in other interviews how he felt having David as the creator was like more Sinister as a Plot, showing a Greater Hubris for Mankind.
Again things can change... they can still change any Plot that would indicate David as the Creator... we have YET to reach the Conclusion and regardless what other many routes fans may want... i think it would be HARD to find a High % who think the David Creates it PLOT was Great!
Its a bit Genius to a degree and a Shocking/Sinister Curveball.... but the ONE thing i think most fans can agree on was the Xenomorph was ALIEN and ANCIENT and the David Creates it PLOT does diminish a lot of ALIEN.
This Plot the Franchised should be called The Terminator or The Predator... but those names have already been taken... certainly NOT.... The Alien ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
As for the xenomorph being a biological weapon, it would (as have been pointed out in the thread) destroy (take over) the whole world. The world would then be useless. You would then need another weapon to get rid of the xenomorphs.
However, the black goo would have the same effect. On Planet 4, all biological life (the fauna) was eradicated except the spores. This total extermination happened in less than 10 years. In order to make Planet 4 habitable again, you would need yet another weapon . . .
You would need something to eradicate the Spores and say Xenomorph, certainly. IF this was a Engineered weapon which i had discussed a number of times you would Engineer a Kill-Switch or a Limited Half-Life for the Pathogen or Xenomorph.
IF the Xenomorph has a Limited Life-Span, then eventually ONCE all viable Hosts are Eradicated then there would be NO more Xenomorphs and ONLY Eggs that remain.
Gavin was led to this theory a few years back, where he then suggested after this happens the Space Jockey/Engineers would return and collect the Eggs
Why we could even speculate that this is the reason the Juggernaught is different to the Derelict, the Derelict Type Ship are just there to Collect the Eggs...
On Planet 4 we see NO Organisms at all apart from those Dead Ones David had experimented with and those Eggs... but thats not to rule out that there are Organisms on the loose or that they had DIED out!
We only had those SPORES which seemed to by the side of the Stream, that was running down the Mountain, that the Juggernaught was crashed on, and under the Payload Bay that was open (Covenant Crew Entered) we see evidence of Water, Moss and the other Spores where here.
MY theory is that the Spores came about from AFTER the Ship Crashed and one of the Urns that was NOT dropped had leaked into the Stream and it had infected Fungi that was growing on the Mold/Moss etc. Black Goo infection like in Prometheus + Fungi (type of Organism) resulted in the Spores.
While the BOMBARDMENT Scene had Urns that had been Weaponized/Activated and maybe Programed to just ERADICATE Life...
But surely ONLY within a Radius.... because some Organisms survived to allow David to Experiment on.
Again thats about the best logical explanation i can come up with.
Personally i dont think the Black Goo or Juggernauts were intended as a Bio-Weapon i think it had became as such at some point in future though.... But the reasons i think this would take quite a Big Post.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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