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"Aliens" , the worst "Alien movie" ever

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Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPDec-03-2018 1:44 PM

I am surprised how many people are criticizing Alien: Covenant. I do not like the film very much, but against Cameron's nonsense, called "Aliens," it's still a great movie. Alien, it's a horror movie. It is, tension, creeping horror. The end was supposed to be clear, Ripley was killed by Alien. The fact that the producers forced Scott to change this end made the pile of nonsense films. But the worst of all is Cameron's Ripley-Rambo. Everything that Alien did by the brilliant image is killed here. An indestructible monster has changed into a weird beetle, which can be shot with a shotgun, a planetoid of 1200 km is a great planet. I have no problem seeing the action sci-fi. Unfortunately, Cameron destroyed the milestone in science fiction. If he made the same film but did not play for the sequel, I would not care. Maybe I'd go to laugh the scene with Ripley battling "Mother" in a robot suit. That's why no film from this "Alien Universe", either AvP or A: Covenant, is a problem for me. After that awful nonsense, "Aliens" no longer mind me. I'm just shocked when I see praise for Cameron's movie somewhere.

62 Responses to "Aliens" , the worst "Alien movie" ever

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-03-2021 1:38 PM

You're right. After all, it's a cheaper version of the original pyramid. That is, the structures built by the Aliens.

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-03-2021 1:39 PM

You're right. After all, it's a cheaper version of the original pyramid. That is, the structures built by the Aliens.

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPSep-03-2021 4:34 PM

I think we CANT get to DRAWN into WHAT was Supposed to be, but more so WHAT we Actually Got.

And so YES there was supposed to be a Pyramid and there was Various Murals on the Walls......

By the TIME they got HR Giger on-board then the Pyramid had become a HR Giger Inspired Design (based off his Unused Work for DUNE). I get what your trying to CONVEY in that DUE to Budget/Time they Could-Not go and have a Separate Egg Silo/Pyramid.  So they Reused the Pilot Chair SET.....

HOWEVER the Concept Art for the Egg Chamber had a Similar Aesthetic to the Interior of the Derelict, it would seem it was a Case of RE-USE the Pilot Chamber for the Egg Chamber.  But they DID both at Concept Stage (HR Giger) have a Similar Appearance.

I Understand that in Earlier Drafts then the SHIP they First Encounter is NOT of HR Giger Design, in Earlier Drafts it was ALIEN, in the Drafts when David Giler and Walter Hill became Involved (it was a Earth Ship) the Dead Crew Described as Skeletal and (HUMAN) The Egg Silo/Pyramid a RED CYLINDER. And Kane Describes the Interior as a "Cave or some-thing below" (This was one of the Hill/Giler Drafts that Introduced ASH).

Then they Combined Parts of O'Bannons with their Draft, where the Space Ship was again ALIEN in Origin.  They Encounter a Structure that Eventually  leads down to a Cavernous Space....  which has Organic Protrusions from the Floors.  But the Eggs/Sacks are Discovered Near the Center of the Chamber, Kane Ponders its a Storage Area.

As they Recover Kane i am sure they are then shown at the Entrance to the Derelict and so MAYBE at this Stage of Drafts the Idea of the Egg Chamber being Part of the DERELICT seems Established?

There is another Late Draft where Kane does mention he is Below Ground Level but it also indicates the HOLE to the Cavern is INSIDE the Derelict. This Latter Draft changes to Leathery Urns again instead of Ovoid Sacks.

The Bottom Line..... the Story had Changed/Evolved that by the Time we had Production we had HR Giger and we would have had a Egg Silo and Separate Derelict Ship that had a SHARED AESTHETIC.

Budget Restraints had made it so the USED the Same SET for the Egg Chamber and Pilot Chamber (Bottom Half of Set as Tops where Matt Paintings).  The Shared Aesthetic indicating that the Egg Silo that became the Cargo Hold and the Derelict Ship were MADE by the Same Species

The Space Jockey was Specifically Designed to Connect to the Pilot Chair and FLY the Ship.

I dont think we can go and say the Egg Chamber is NOT in any way Connected to the Derelict Ship and its Pilot....  PURELY because HR Giger had Designed them.  But Each Person is Entitled to their Own Opinion.

I Stand By the Intention that WHO EVER had Built the Egg Chamber had also Built the Derelict Ship.....   Even IF we ONLY go by the Movie Itself.

However....doing so....

We cant Confirm/Prove that WHOEVER had Built the Egg Chamber and Derelict

1) Had Created/Engineered the Eggs or NOT.

2) Was the Space Jockey Race (they could have been Enslaved by who Created the Egg Chamber and Derelict).

I think that Originally and i mean Prior to Shooting that the Inside of the Egg Silo may have Appeared like a Cavernous Cave to Kane but he also said OR SOMETHING... so he was maybe NOT like 100%, at some Stage in the Drafts it seems Indicated this Cavern/Egg Chamber was UNDERGROUND.

THIS TOPIC.... is maybe Easier to Discuss the Space Jockey but there have been others.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Xenotaris

PraetorianMember2952 XPSep-03-2021 11:58 PM

The aesthetics of the derelict ship and egg chamber I believe connects the two scenes together. I mean why would an unrelated cave that resembles the interior of the derelict not be connected to the Space Jockey? You can't just say its HR Giger's style and leave it at that! Because why isn't the entire planetoid not having the same Giger style? Hmmmm?

ALIEN VERSUS PREDATOR UNIVERSE

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-04-2021 3:03 AM

I guess I don't approach it so scientifically and I don't try to search and uncover the mystery. My view is (after xy time spent searching for "how it actually happened" ) without trying to explain it.

The original idea was clear. The alien ship landed as an exploration vehicle much like we did on the moon. It discovered a bizarre formation full of eggs. One of the explorers was attacked by a facehugger and brought the embryo into the ship. There, a familiar Nostromo scenario  occurred. The alien wiped out the crew, no matter how large. In Ash's words, he was indestructible. Okay maybe incredibly resilient, capable of constant self-repair. There were hints in the pyramid that it wasn't an animal. But it happened may be milions of years in past.

There just wasn't the money to carry out the plan. And no time. They started trying to figure it out. Idea after idea after idea. But it all came down to a lack of money and time. Besides, there were obviously contradictions. It was a cauldron of ideas and Alien was out of control. There were a lot of crazy ideas, and in the end, miraculously, a unique idea was born. As the ideas crossed there remained an unfinished idea for Alien germs from Dallas and Brett. It was deleted.

But another time the idea of alien bio-weapons left only Ripley's sentence. But the result was a mix that was ultimately perfect. No visible fight just a hint. Dallas' gun was empty. He had to fight the Alien and the flamethrower wasn't enough. The flames of the rocket won't burn the Alien. Another hint that there was a fight, but the flamethrower wasn't enough. Ash's words about not being able to destroy the Alien (with the crew's weapons?) at least suggest he was pretty solid.

There's just a lot of ideas coming together here and none of them finished. And that's why so many possible interpretations. Ultimately, Scott used them in Covenant. Too bad there won't be another Covenant where Scott MAY have followed through on his idea. Maybe he doesn't want to and wants to leave room for the imagination.

The result of Alien is simple. X possible hints as it were, no instructions. And that is the correct conclusion. You, the viewer, have the imagination to make up your own mind. Choose your own path of how it was. My way is based on the fact that the original script was true to the Alien structure. The alien ship hit here by accident, and the crew disposal scenario. The beacon sending the message is evidence of that choice. DON'T ANYONE LAND HERE!!

That's enough for me to rule out the idea that ship was carrying the eggs himself. The structure above dead extraterrastrial is probably the device the crew used to remove the embryo from his body. And it looks bizarre and big? Well, Giger. The sentence about the armaments is either a trick question or should have been cut but was left in. We don't know what the time pressure was to reshoot the scene. Personally, I think it's a deliberate dead end. Ripley doesn't say a word in her broadcast about what she experienced. The only warning. Yet she knew it was a matter of chance that they would find her and she knew there were a number of Alien embryos and a beacon on the planetoid. It may be sending a warning, but...

Well, I'll leave it at that. I'm not supposed to learn anything except to marvel at the perfect horror movie. A stunning Alien. A fierce battle with an unequal foe, like an open-ended supernatural horror movie. And that's the way it should be. Why Scott went crazy and started making these weird explanations is a mystery to me. Potential for product? The need to undo everything everyone else has done and laugh at everything that came after Alien? Only he knows. All I know is that he absolutely failed.

Xenotaris

PraetorianMember2952 XPSep-04-2021 5:51 AM

You dodge my question and you seem like the type of person that would rather that Frodo never complete his journey to maintain the mystery or Harry Potter should never complete his tenor at Hogwarts or the rebels don't advanced the war against the galactic empire beyond the destruction of the death star or that we shouldn't learn how the dinosaurs are in Jurassic Park? 

ALIEN VERSUS PREDATOR UNIVERSE

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPSep-04-2021 6:50 AM

"The original idea was clear. The alien ship landed as an exploration vehicle much like we did on the moon. It discovered a bizarre formation full of eggs. One of the explorers was attacked by a facehugger and brought the embryo into the ship"

That was the Original Idea indeed...

However we have to Remember that the Story/Concept had Changed as we go on.

At the TIME we had Separate Pyramid, then YES the Space Jockey to speak was the Skeletal Remains of None-Human looking Alien Species.

I am sure that MOST would Agree that HR Gigers Monster and Ship are WHAT really Stood Out....  but i dont think you can then IGNORE that the Egg Chamber has that same Aesthetic....

But as Dr Shaw had said "because that's what I choose to believe"

Once they had Started the Production the Concept of a ALIEN Species who are LONG GONE and all that Remained are their Egg/Spore Stage in their Birthing Ritual Pyramid...  that was Discovered by another Unrelated Alien Species who went to Investigate and got Infected.....

Had Changed to make the Once merely a Explorer who had Turned Up at the Wrong Place/Time....  to these Species being Connected to the Actual Organisms that was then MOVED into a Egg Chamber/Silo.

The Connection was Never Answered on Screen...as of ALIEN

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPSep-04-2021 7:25 AM

I know that Kane Described the Cargo Hold as a Cave... seems like a Cave of some Sort (if i remember Correct) but we can Clearly see as he Descends that its Walls are NOT what you would Consider a Cave..... However we could Assume this is some Underground Storage Facility that was Carved Out of a Cave.

There have been Numerous Debates on here that KANES Comments and the Size of the Egg Chamber mean that its Definitely NOT Part of the SHIP..... and well YES it was Supposed to be Separate.

Actually though if the SHIP was 20ft Taller it would have FITTED with Ease....

With ALIEN we see the Crew Enter via the Openings but we do-not see a Minute by Minute Footage... well Kane Climbs up to the Pilot Chamber... it may seem he has NOT really Climbed that FAR.... but we maybe had NEVER see his Full Accent.

The Concept Work indicates the Pilot Room is Positioned below the Windowed Dome at the Top of the Derelict.

And so in the Image Above i have Scaled the Shot to match the Size of the Crew Compared to the Opening of the Derelict and Positioned the Pilot Chamber to a Approx Position.

There is Considerable Space Under the Pilot Chamber but its NOT QUITE Big Enough for the Egg Chamber but its Certainly by No Means as SMALL as People think (Derelict)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-04-2021 12:13 PM

4xenotaris

I don't understand why you're writing this. Alien is a movie that has a beginning and an end. That's how the story was written, the script was written and the movie was made. A beginning and an end. It wasn't the first episode of the series.

It's hard to see how you'd feel if someone made a "sequel" to Hobbit and Smaug suddenly rose from the dead and ate the expedition. Or it turns out that there are more dragons in the cave and a vicious fight starts in which Godzilla goes up against the dragon. That's how those other Alien movies affect me.

But in the Alien universe, any nonsense is allowed. What would have infuriated LOTR fans, with the directors alien “sequel”  is every stupidity ok. Even space pirates or whatever the hell the Alien Ressurection crew is. I am affraid but curious too what will more in Alien universe  for crazy things.

 

 

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-04-2021 12:20 PM

I totally agree BigDave.

It was definitely not a natural cave. It's a creation of the Alien civilization. That's how I see it. I used to think it was inexplicable. Since reading the original script, I understand that it's a remnant of an Alien civilization that disappeared xy years ago but has preserved its future descendants in the form of embryos in the hope of rebuilding itself.

Perfect work and pictures, by the way. I just don't see the one above analyzing the size of the derelict. Ipad doesn't show it.

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-04-2021 4:23 PM

So I read an interview with Giger where he mentions Aliens. Apparently, he feels the same way I do about the movie.

You're best known as the father of Alien, for which you won an Oscar in 1980. You also worked on Poltergeist 2, Species and Dune. How did you get into film in the first place?

I've worked on do***entaries before. In 1971, F.M. Murer and I made the do***entary Passagen, the first part of which was set in the London docks. He actually brought me to the film. I had a great time working with Ridley Scott on Alien.

Why weren't you involved in the second part of it?

Because I wasn't offered it. They just made a sequel that featured my characters without asking me or making a copyright deal with me. They don't even mention my name anymore. But maybe that's a good thing - there's nothing to lose with crappy movies.

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1304 XPSep-05-2021 10:46 AM

"Because I wasn't offered it. They just made a sequel that featured my characters without asking me or making a copyright deal with me. They don't even mention my name anymore. But maybe that's a good thing - there's nothing to lose with crappy movies."

That is awesome! Giger is the franchise. 

 

Gives me impetus to complete my A L I E N I I script.

 

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPSep-06-2021 4:17 AM

The LAST IMAGE goes to show that IF the Bottom of the Derelict was Extended Out as so, then the Egg Chamber would FIT fine ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPSep-06-2021 4:44 AM

Anyway Andy77 i Understand where your coming from....

Your looking at the Vision of Dan O'Bannon's idea, which YES i am sure when he had Envisioned and Wrote his Work that became Starbeast it was NOT set up for a Sequel but a STAND ALONE Movie.

Which is maybe WHY we did have RS suggest their be NO SURVIVORS apart from the ALIEN itself.   The Story did Leave some Mystery though...

1) More about WHAT became of the ALIEN Civilization.

2) What becomes of that World after.. as its STILL there with the Pyramid, Eggs/Spores.

The Space Jockey (well who became it) was just a Footnote at this Stage.

So it NEVER had a ENDING that would SEAL the Option for Sequels, the First Movie to do this was ALIENS.  Which seemed to Indicate that thats the END of the Derelict and Cargo!

which then Led to Alien 3 to come up with a WAY to get the Xenomorph back that was Riddled with Plot Holes and then came another END... which then Alien R came along to give us the Xenomorph again in a WAY that makes Little Sense. These came about because the STUDIO thought you need RIPLEY.

But i think O'Bannon had made his STORY to be much like the THING... at the END of the THING we are left with McReady and Childs as the Survivors... it was LEFT a Mystery to what Happens Next....  is ONE the THING? Does ONE go and KILL the other Thinking they are the THING?  Are NONE the THING and they will both Freeze to Death?  Or do they have a Happy Ending....

It was left to be Unknown....... We then had the EVENTS that Happened Prior to the Movie as FAR as WHAT had Happened to the Norwegian Camp, was also a MYSTERY..... but ONE which they Attempted to Address with the Prequel.. (should have left it a Mystery).

And so i dont think O'Bannon had ever thought there would be SEQUELS... and i know some ALIEN FANS, would rather had seen ALIEN become just a STAND ALONE.

So Andy77 i think you view is looking at HOW the Movie had Changed from the IDEA that its Creator had (Dan O'Bannon) i know he was HAPPY and Wanted to have HR Giger in to Design the ALIEN.... but he was NOT a Fan of making the Derelict Ship and the PLACE where the Eggs/Spores were Stored as being CONNECTED.

He Felt the Derelict and its Pilot should have been a Separate/Unconnected Race to the ALIEN SPORES that were in the Pyramid.  He also wanted to see the Egg Morph Scene included.

But the STUDIO had Purchased the Script.... it then went through some Changes and then RS had liked the Work of HR Giger and had him come in to Design the Pilot, the Derelict and the Egg Storage Chamber.... which then all had that SAME kind of Aesthetic... so a Connection was MADE.

Where the Studio and RS then Decided the Story would Evolve to take into Account of that Connection and THUS the Eggs became a Creation of the Space Jockey but it was NEVER shown On-Screen.

So all that Mainly Carried over (apart from PLOT) was the LIFE-CYCLE and ACID BLOOD of the ALIEN.  The Pilot/Ship and its Role had been Changed, the Location of the Eggs and their Role had been Changed.

Maybe HR Giger should have Designed the Egg Chamber and the ALIEN and then for the Derelict/Pilot they should have USED someone else.... but for me the DERELICT/SPACE JOCKEY and Egg Chamber are the MOST ICONIC Scenes of the Franchise.......a ENIGMA (The Face Hugger, Chest Buster and First Time we see our ALIEN too) ... until the Prequels.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1304 XPSep-06-2021 6:03 AM

".....the DERELICT/SPACE JOCKEY.."

 

That works for me. 

the "..Egg Chamber"

does not and will always confuse me.

If David planted the eggs. then it works. The eggs are fresh and new...not thousands of years old and somehow haven't fossilized.

Plus.... The facehuggers are meant for 5 to 7 foot humanoids, anything bigger ( or different head shape )render them useless. Clearly they were designed to murder humans.....A 13 foot SPACE JOCKEY would laugh at such a tiny bug.

 

Instead of an egg chamber, make the derelict a passenger ship. Fill it with the fossilized remains of pilgrims on their way to worship. The passengers could have Eggmorphed....( but I would still dump the whole egg nonsense)

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-06-2021 5:02 PM

BigDave

 

The advantage of Alien is that in the confusion in making movie gives room for imagination. So it's an advantage especially for directors who want to cash in on the success of others.

I think if Ripley had died, there would have been a way to make a sequel. It's just that the film fascinated a lot of people.
It's ironic that Cameron only made such nonsense (Aliens) because Alien offered unprecedented possibilities. And yet JC was the one who wanted to make a splash. I mean, look at me, there won't be another one Alien. And as we know, there was. And there certainly will be. Whatever.
I love a mystery, and Alien is great when it stays one. I mean, I don't want to know the details. Explanation. In past I wanted. Not today. Alien is absolutely perfect the way it is.
Ship and cave

The artificial "cave" in which the egg is found and spaceship are the same view? I mean that many people doesn't care so much about the resemblance. They enjoy it as a thing of beauty.
I wouldn't change anything about Alien. Maybe one little thing. Ripley's sentence about guns in the context of Alien. It's meaningless. But even that doesn't matter.
Movies that have to explain open endings of another movies bother me. Yes, The Thing ended for me with both of them standing in ruins. In fact, I've forgotten what the stupidity of the prequel was all about. And it's good.
Giger made something that's gonna be a hit. Even if we do fly among the stars, Alien will not be forgotten.

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-06-2021 5:21 PM

MonsterZero,
You're a man who accepts an alien universe. I mean, all parts, including the new RS movies. And you're thinking about it. You accept it as a gradual reveal. Both into the future (Aliens...Alien R ) and into the past. (Prometheus, Covenant). Okay that's your approach and it makes sense. You're looking for how it all connects. You're trying to make it one big whole that's clear. I mean, the basics.

That's not my approach. For me, Alien began with flight of Nostromo and ended when Ripley fell asleep. Anything created after that has nothing to do with it.

I'll give you an example. King Kong. A great monster from 1933 (?). Godzilla. Amazing monster from 1954. They have beginnings and endings. Godzilla is killed by a substance that dissolves the cells released by the scientist in the water below. Kong kills himself by falling off a skyscraper. Each at a different time in a different place.

Successful movies. And so many Godzillas and many King Kongs were made. And someone thought. Okay, it'll be great to have them fight each other. MDe movie. First in Japan now US version.but with King Kong and Godzilla movies has nothing to do  

That's exactly how the other Alien movies are working for me. Not just AvP, but ALL of them.

So yes, if you accept what's in the other Alien movies you're undoubtedly right. To me what is outside the original film is irrelevant. Let whoever makes whatever they want. But yes, I'd love to see it. However, anything that contradicts (like swapping an alien skeleton for a spacesuit) I ignore. I don't care. It doesn't answer the questions for me. Just like the plot of AvP. But I like to watch.

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-07-2021 3:34 AM

MonsterZero,
I agree with letting RS continue his version of the Alien origin explanation. I agree that it's very interesting. It allows those viewers who want clarity to get their bearings.
Besides, it's an interesting thema. Humanity as a creation of another civilization. Dilems creator versus creation. David's attempt to create a new being. I'll just have this reservation. None of this was in the original script or in the thoughts of either O Bannon or RS.

But that's okay. What strikes me are these questions.
1) Why doesn't the Covenant team use spacesuits on an alien planet and behave worse than visitors to the wilderness where are poisonous snakes and beasts. In Africa, for example. They go there like a walk in the park.

I don't understand what kind of group of people David bombed. It looked like some kind of splinter group, a sect that lives outside of mainstream civilization. Like the Amish. Can we expect to meet the creators or does RS mean that David wiped out everyone? Bizarre notion.

Your reasoning about Alien as a means of killing people is incomprehensible to me. Such a complicated system when Creator can use bomb like the one David dropped on that town. The only way the Aliens could wipe out humanity is if, like Godzilla, they survived a nuclear bomb. The lAliens would have less of a chance against Earth's military than, say, the Taliban. We already have drones, perfect weaponry. The Alien is great for a spaceship where the crew has harpoons and homemade flamethrowers. Not on the battlefield. The Alien version of JC who gets shot by combat rifles.

Whatever Scott wanted to do to close his Alien picture, he probably wouldn't be able to do it. Covenant 2 has been postponed to an unknown time, and RS is at an age that doesn't allow for big plans. If it ends up being a Covenant storyline, it's possible to make own theories. No certainty.

By the way. You accept the version where RS presents Alien as an artificial creation. How do you feel about the possibility of connecting the Alien and Predator universes. I mean, the Predator tech civilization uses Aliens as test animals. So the Predators could be the ones who worked with the Aliens. If we're going to use a lot of fsntasia.

What do you expect Covenant 2 to bring if it comes out. What should it bring to fit the last piece of the puzzle.

If you have the time and inclination, write me your version of the puzzle, the history of Alien. I mean the events in the movies before Alien as it fits together. Thank you.

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-07-2021 3:59 AM

BigDave, my opinion is. Giger = Alien. Without him, the film would be forgotten. Let's just say someone else would have been in of the design. And the monster or the derelict would look like this. Who would remember that? It would be just one of many space monster movies. The best script, idea and direction are useless unless they're well visualized. Without Giger, this movie wouldn't be a cult.

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPSep-07-2021 6:11 AM

"The facehuggers are meant for 5 to 7 foot humanoids"

They Certainly seemed to Suit a Host that had a Head like a Human, i would say they would be able to Face Hug a Humanoid between 4-8ft Ideally, but then in ONE of the ALIEN 3 Cuts we are shown that a COW was Face Hugged.

So this does-not mean its Limited to Humanoids but i would think that it would STRUGGLE and not be Efficient with Certain Organisms depending on their Head Size etc.  So it would seem to make sense that they was DESIGNED to Infect a Specific Species and well Humanoids like Engineers even up to 10ft would be something a Face Hugger could Grasp/Wrap around.

So to Infect a 13-15ft Being would be Hard... Never-mind a 21ft+ as some still Consider the Space Jockey as.....

But we have to Remember that the Movies can have FLAWS.... there are things we have to OVERLOOK...

 

So we have to ACCEPT a Face Hugger could Infect our Space Jockey as above....

Another GOOD POINT is the Eggs being Dormant... they are Organic and the Face Hugger is too, and so it makes more SENSE that they have been on LV-426 for Decades, or Centuries but as FAR as Thousands of Years that would seem ODD but the Egg Chamber and maybe Myst could ACT as some kind of Suspended Animation for them?  Like a Giant Cryo-Pod.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPSep-07-2021 6:26 AM

@Andy77

I see what you mean, yeah everyone is Entitled to Accept what they like as Canon or what is NOT ;)

And to be FAIR.... it was ONLY when i had ALIEN on DVD and had Seen the Concept Works of HR Giger and being able to STUDY the Space Jockey Scene in Detail as well as the Prop..... which is when it seemed to NOT be a Skeleton to me.

Prior to that the Head looked more Skeletal to me... but the Hose/Snorkel just looked ODD... i did think was this some kind of Breathing Device/Snorkel that attached to the Body then to Chair via the Body... which then it made me think well maybe the BODY apart from the Head is  a SUIT as it looked ODD for a Skeleton.

Maybe its a Not Quite Humanoid in a Space Suit, or then even a Bio-Mechanical being like the Xenomorph?   The Problems come from the COLOR... it looks like BONE but then so we ask is a Large Part of the Chair also BONE?

But in the late 90's when i Studied the SJ and Concepts then to me i was thinking so its a Bald 13ft Humanoid in the Chair... and when we get to the Prequels they went for the same Concept (HR Giger).

But IF we threw all the Movies Out apart from ALIEN and you ONLY go by the Movie so you IGNORE ALL the Comments by Production etc, Drafts and Concepts then the Space Jockey is something that YES i think MOST would have seen as a SKELETON...

I would have LIKED if it was down to me to have seen the SJ as a Bio-Mechanical Entity, there are Drawings/Art by HR Giger where he has Entities like the SJ in them and so i think thats WHAT the Space Jockey should be...

I Totally Agree that WITHOUT the Designs by HR Giger then ALIEN would NOT have been as Iconic as it is.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-07-2021 7:41 AM

BigDave. Here's the problem. Giger was a genius. His entire work is incredible. BUT. He painted 99% of everything with pistol. And - Women, sex, anything as a mixture of MACHINE, SEX and DEATH. In the interview he says: I love women because in the future there's only sex and death and I'm afraid to die. Who doesn't? Technik symbolize future  death is destiny for any living organism and sex is joy in time between birth and death  this i reason for the mixture.  

So his genius in this regard (SJ) has backfired on him. I mean, I think it fooled the audience. They see the technical element and they're looking for a spacesuit. No. It's just that all Giger's ever created are BIOMECHANOIDS. That's what he called it.

So it's an illusion. Yes, that's what RS used when he made Prometheus. Giger wasn't looking for logic in design. Why would the ship's corridors look like giant bones? It makes the whole ship look like a bio-orgasm where the flesh has rotted away and the bones remain. You see. Even that would be an idea for an Alien universe movie.

After all, look at Alien. I saw his sculpture when Giger had an exhibition in Prague. So many parts of his body look mechanical. That's just Giger's design. And no one is speculating if Alien is in a spacesuit or mechanical.  A lot of these apparent hints about SJ and room with eggs are because people don't know Giger's entire body of work.

No, I'm not at all suggesting that the SJ is a astronaut. Dallas makes it clear. The bones are bent outward. It's all fossilized. It must have been here a long time.

Thebeggs. A creature like Alien could make it last. Look at the fog. The heat in an environment where the frost was well below zero.

That's why I don't even consider the egg room part of the ship. Yes, anything is possible. Alien vs Predator, King Kong vs Godzilla. But originally in the movie, it's an underground room. The feelings of similarity are again a result of Giger.

Btw did you see his concepts for Harkonen's fortress. Logic doesn't play a role in Giger's. And is also what made the (in my opinion crazy) idea of making SJ the pilot of the ship possible.as far as I could judge it is under the medical machine (CT tunnels are pretty big too. Radiation machines against cancer are also. What do we know about extraterrestrial technology?)

Yes, the comment about the facehugger being a manhunter is interesting. Until we remember the cow from Alien 3. Surely such a germ-laying creature has the skills to cope. He's on tour. Yes it probably wouldn't be able to infect a Tyrannosaurus but it may have only reacted to a warm blooded organism who knows. He really wouldn't have a problem with SJ.

Another idea, by the way. In examining the wreckage there should be an alien created from the crew of the derelict. Where did it go? Did he die? Question after question.

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-07-2021 7:44 AM

TBiomechanoid

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-07-2021 7:54 AM

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-07-2021 7:55 AM

Look at this. If you stay near the statue (thats not my photo sadly) you can see mechanical elements. Giger. Thats all. 

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPSep-07-2021 9:04 AM

I think the PROBLEM with the Franchise is the FIRST MOVIE had seemed to SET the Scene.... Frame the Franchise, and even the Final Product had gone through Changes compared to the ORIGINAL DRAFT.

There was a LOT of Mystery with ALIEN.

When we got Sequels and New Directors and Writers then you are Faced with the Franchise being Continued/Expanded in Ways that WONT PLEASE everyone.

I know MANY were Very Disapointed with ALIEN COVENANT but when you LOOK at it Deeper and theme Theme/Plot then things do START to make Sense as FAR as if we look back at ALIEN.

The ONLY PROBLEM will be the Size of the Space Jockey and Convincing People that the Derelict and Pilot have ONLY been on LV-426 for UP TO 10 YEARS........  Unless God Forbid..... TIME TRAVEL.

"What do you expect Covenant 2 to bring if it comes out. What should it bring to fit the last piece of the puzzle"

I think RS has hinted at the SET-UP.... there will be Returning Engineers at some Point, there will be incoming Human Ships (2-3), It seems that Potentially the FINAL PART of the Xeno-Jigsaw will be the Mechanical Element from a Synthetic.... this is Speculation.

It would seem that the Xenomorph of Davids will go through some Upgrades/Evolution and then these EGGS will get on-board the Derelict... which to me would INDICATE that a Engineer Ship would either.

1) Be taking them to LV-223 to Study but ONLY gets as FAR as LV-426

2) Have been Mass Produced/Engineered on LV-223 and then the Ship is about to LEAVE but it ONLY gets as FAR as LV-426

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPSep-07-2021 9:51 AM

Regarding the Space Jockey i think it does-not make a LOT of Sense as a Skeleton, ok it has a Rib-Cage but so does the Corridors and Walls of the Ship and these are NOT like Bone Color but a Grey Color.  They incorporated this Color (Grey) into the Space Jockey Suits in Prometheus.

Above we see the TOP ROW are some Fan Art on Speculating what the Space Jockey would look like, the TOP RIGHT design could Actually Work if the Snorkel was Shown to NOT be a Part of the Creature but it kind of looks like it, and we have the Glass/Helmet which is Present on the Concept by HR Giger but does-not appear in the PROP.

The Bottom TWO are from the Comics.....

From a Biological Standpoint its a BIT STRANGE for a Organism to have some TRUNK that then Attaches to its Lower Chest/Rib-cage.....  WHY?

Its just a Aesthetic Design.... maybe we are NOT supposed to Speculate about its Functionality.

However with the NOTION that what we have is a Space Suit then it makes PERFECT SENSE.

When i look at the Areas i have made Arrows and Circles and Compare to the Concept then these seem to IMPLY some Mechanical Connection to the Chair and NOT any Organic... the Areas of the JOINTS (the Yellow Arrows) do-not look like what you would Expect from Skeletal Joints.

When i look at HR Gigers Concepts for the Face Huggers and Mural i can see a Connection, like the Mural is a Evolution Design wise and the Space Jockey Concept is a Further Evolution/Change.

IF we take it as a Skeleton (as YES prior to HR Giger thats what we was Supposed to get) then the Wires etc must be Buried into the Skin and Attach to the Bone....

This may seem Bizarre but HR Gigers Style is Bizarre.... more Mechanical than the Organic Space Jockey that some see it as.....

For ME the Ideal Conclusion before we had the Prequels would be that the Space Jockey is a Bio-Mechanical Being, it has more in Common with the Xenomorph than a Humanoid, Mammal or any Organism......

This i FEEL would have FITTED WELL... but YES it would have Gone Against the Idea that O'Bannon had..... a Skeleton of a None Connected Species.

And WHILE we have the Bone Color of the Space Jockey (but also the Chair in Parts) and While the FACE (Minus Snorkel) and Rib-cage.... look like a Skeleton to a Degree..... and the Original Idea before HR Giger Designed the Space Jockey was a Skeleton...

Then People are Free to Interpret as such. ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Andy77

OvomorphMember35 XPSep-07-2021 10:52 AM

I don't consider Prometheus/Covenant to be stupid. It's interesting if I forget the Alien realities. I can't do that, unfortunately. So I'm watching it as an interesting demonstration of the path that can be taken. How everything can be turned around and remade.
I can never tell: Oh, that's how it was. But I'm curious to see what they come up with. Definitely more interesting RS ideas than the carnage in Aliens or the star pirates in Ressurection. So I'm curious. I'm just worried that Covenant 2 won't be realized anymore.

To your points. If Giger wasn't doing the design one might wonder about the mechanical elements on SJ. I wouldn't hesitate.

But I know Giger and I can find mechanical looking parts on Alien too see photo. He just couldn't and wouldn't do anything but biomechanoids. It was his style. Yes, we can find a lot of things in SJ. But as you so humorously pointed out, we have no idea what he looked like. At the time of Alien 1979. After that, in Prometheus it was Scott's intention to change everything

Giger was assigned to do a dead alien. And he did it in his own style, brilliantly. Biomechanoid style. But I wouldn't speculate on whether the creature was meant to be biomechanical. I take that as a consequence of Giger's style. But when it was attacked by the Facehugger, I'd consider it more of a living being. A life similar to ours.

The word bone is clear. If the three astronauts in room with SJ skeletons suspected anything, they'd say something. Not simply a corpse. And hint, "the bones are bent outwards". I think a Stegosaurus would look very bizarre. Armour on the back.

I take it all as an artist's statement. But it provided RS to do it another way. A different series. And those who take it seriously just have to take RS's explanation seriously. And adjust their idea of Derelict SJ and Alien.

Fortunately, I don't. But I'm waiting with interest to see if there's anything to the movie BUT NEVER CHANGE my view on Alien. 

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPSep-08-2021 4:41 AM

"I don't consider Prometheus/Covenant to be stupid."

Yeah i meant that some Fans were Disappointed and Especially with AC, but you will get this Problem with ANY kind of Movie they do in the Franchise... if we had Blomkamps Alien 5, it may have Pleased the Ripley Fans, a Big Proportion of the ALIENS Fans but then it would have Displeased those who liked Alien 3 or those who think you have to ACCEPT what we got on Screen and then ATTEMPT to FIX it rather than to REBOOT etc.

Alien Resurrection came about because they wanted another ALIEN Movie and they thought that WELL... with the Ending of ALIENS and ALIEN 3 there are NO-MORE of the Eggs, and also they had THINK of HOW do we bring back Ripley.

I would be TOTALLY against them Rebooting any of the Movies, Especially if its to GIVE US a Alternative Alien 3 etc... to bring back Ripley!.....

I would NOT be against a COMPLETE REBOOT though.... if its done as a ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE where you can have the Xenomorph, where the ALIEN Franchise as it Happened does-not Exist.... but were you could have the Xenomorph and the Weyland-Yutani Company (or introduce another) so we can VIEW this as a Alternative Universe which is HOW we should View the AVP Franchise and HOW i see the Comics.

IF we did get a Complete Reboot though.... i think it would be more of a Camerons Hive/Bug World... than being close to O'Bannons Original.. and i bet they would give us a RIPLEY but use a Different Actress....

I have always said and done MANY TOPICS about it..........

Regardless of the Franchise and Prequels... there is ONE QUESTION to Answer.

Was the DERELICT the ONLY such Ship that had a Egg Cargo?  If NOT then where have the others GONE.....     and so THIS is where you could take another ALIEN MOVIE.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10237 XPSep-08-2021 4:52 AM

Regarding HR Giger while we see HR Giger doing his Bio-Mechanical Style on all that he Works On, there are Elements in his ART that we see Influences on the Space Jockey which are some Twisted Bio-Mechanical Strange beings....

But there is that GOOD POINT regarding IF we saw the Space Jockey as Bio-Mechanical and Especially if Related to the Xenomorph.... and that would BE..

HOW CAN THE SPACE JOCKEY BECOME INFECTED!

So then i guess that leaves us with TWO OPTIONS.

1) Indication of a Bio-Mechanical Suit which we have seen in HR Gigers Concepts.

2) Interpretation that its a Organic Organism with a Trunk that is then Infused to the Chair with Various Wires etc... as Interpreted by some of those who Worked on some of the Comics from 90s.

I think the Franchise has Disappointed Some with HOW its Gone...

HR Gigers Aesthetic is Iconic.... some of the idea of Dan O'Bannon were Good but our Xenomorph is just NOT the STARBEAST.... not anymore..

This Mural was always Interesting it was Supposed to be Placed above the Egg Chamber and Over Each Section, where there would be a Contraption that would CREATE the Eggs.

HR Giger and Considered the SHIPS to be Grown, he also Suggested the Egg Chamber would Produce the Eggs... looking at his Mural then it seems to show a Xenomorph in the Shape of a Derelict, which you could Interpret this as the SHIP has a Genetic/Connection to the Xenomorph, it also seems to look like the SHIP would Produce the Eggs.

We have those Humanoids who Sacrifice themselves to the Xenomorph.....

The Idea that Starbeast has Evolved to, would indicate the Space Jockey Race had Created this Technology and the Ships, the Egg Chamber etc.....

But you could FLIP THIS.... by showing the Space Jockey/Engineer are Actually either a Enslaved Species or Created Species by something that Predates the Xenomorph....

You can Re-introduce the STARBEAST....

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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