Alien: Covenant
Alien: Exodus

Alien: Exodus

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BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPNov-18-2018 4:57 PM

With the Recent Topics and Buzz surrounding the Sequel to Alien Covenant their seems to be a lot of Interpretation by the Alien Communities about where the Next Movie was going!  However.....  taking a deeper look into Ridley Scotts Comments could prove so many WRONG!

The Sequel to Alien Covenant has had its share of clues to what this Next Installment would Provide.  But looking into the Comments from Ridley Scott, it appears maybe indeed the Plot/Direction for the Sequel MAY not be TOO FAR off what Ridley Scotts  Raised by Wolves Sci-Fi Series could be about.

Ridley Scott had announced they are off to the Planet in the Next Movie, but 3-4 Parties will be coming to investigate, One of these the Engineers who Return to Planet 4 and Discover the Devastation that David has left in his wake!

The Empire Magazine Special has Reignited theories into what the Sequel had in mind... which has lead to Speculation that it will be set on LV-426.  I believe this is INCORRECT.

If we look at some of the Comments that Ridley Scott has made regarding the Sequel and Artificial Intelligence and Xenomorph we see that he seems to think the Xenomorph has nearly run its course and you have to come up with something NEW, he also had said the Next Movie would be about Artificial Intelligence and he had asked us "what kind of a World would David build?"

Ridley Scott felt he was ahead of the Curve with Prometheus and its themes and Creation, Religion, Mortality, Immortality and it appeared he was not interested in going the route of a Direct Prequel and to Cover the Xenomorph Origins.  But when told this is the Direction that the Prometheus Sequel was taking he had applied some of his Ideas to the Xenomorph Origins.. where Ridley Scott feels our Greatest Threat is the Creation of AI and Once any Creation becomes Sentient and has Freewill and Knowledge it could be bad new for their Creator.

Some interpret AI as only being a Robot, when Artificial Intelligence is anything that is not Natural or that has Evolved by Artificial Intervention.  When talking about AI in relation to the Sequel he brought up that Roy Batty was AI and Rachael was AI from Blade Runner.  Indeed Replicants are Artificially Created but Organic and so these comments show that RS does not see that AI is restricted to Computers and Machines...  Even the Revelation that the Planet 4 Engineers are the ORIGINALS could indicate our Prometheus Engineers are Genetically Engineered/Created Versions and so could be considered a Artificial Intelligence  so this opens the Door for anything that is Engineered from its Natural State could be considered AI

If the Next Movie was to be less about the Xenomorph or maybe not at all, and about AI and what WORLD would David Create then we have to consider those TWO things as Large Plot Points.   A Theme at play with Prometheus and to a extent Alien Covenant was the pursuit of PERFECTION  and Creation and does being a Creator make you a GOD!  If we look at the LV-223 Engineers as being a attempted Perfection/Super Engineered Engineers then this can make sense to the differences.

A lot of people have interpreted David as EVIL, but then in The Crossing he Did-Not appear so.  David had mentioned that he had Wiped this World Clean (Planet 4) so that he and Dr Shaw could start a New Eden... but She Rejected...  could she had Discovered what he did and became upset at how is she going to get her Answers now?  Could David had offered that he could help her to CREATE!

During the Build-up to Alien Covenant and the TRAILER i had pondered the significance of the AURORA NATURE BOY song and its Lyrics.

We have seen how David had been mistreated by Humans, include Weyland and Holloway, yet he noticed Dr Shaw was different "your very kind of heart" he grew fond of Dr Shaw and Loved Her but he also took Rejection Bad.  When as Walter he was talking to Daniels about "what kind of a World they can build" he had said "if we are kind to it, it will be a Kind World"

Knowledge/Freewill are key Themes... every Child is Born Innocent and Pure it is the Experiences and Upbringing that Shape what kind of a Person they become...  KNOWLEDGE is a Major Theme, if we look at what Mankind had done so Wrong to upset the Engineers, we also need to look at what we had done to Wrong to Upset GOD in the Biblical Stories....  IF the Engineers/GOD could just WIPE the Memories of Mankind, and then we could be TAUGHT the intended ways again.  If a Emissary had taken a Few Hundred Children of Mankind away to a New Place they could have been  TAUGHT the intended ways and Not be Corrupted by the ways of Man...   Knowledge and Freewill play Key Roles, for the Bible it shows us that the Fall of Lucifer was because he was created Perfect and had been given more Free-will and Knowledge and he is just like David, where as other Angels were more like Walter.. made to Serve and could not have Independent thought for what HE wants for himself.

Mankind on Earth have become Corrupt, if you look at how we are Today, we would be looked down on as Shameful by many Ancient Cultures, when Mosses was given the 10 Commandments it was to set the Chosen on a New Path of Obedience and Against Sinful ways,  When GOD chose prior to Destroy the Sinful... he saved Noah and a Handful to START ANEW if we now go to the COVENANT and its Mission... the Origins Novel informs us these Colonist wish to abandon the Decaying Corrupt World that has become Earth, and by Virtue of Daniels and Jacob wishing to build a CABIN ON  A LAKE shows these Colonist could be looking to START ANEW but also maybe living a more Simple and Basic Life...  Much like our Engineers may have turned to on Planet 4.

The Covenant is acting like a Noahs Ark for a New Start for these Colonist.

Going back to the AURORA SONG the last part of the Lyrics are... Then he said to me: "The greatest thing you'll ever learn Is to love and be loved in return"

I think this reflects to how he felt about Mankind and how he saw difference in Dr Shaw because of how she treated him and i feel this will HOLD TRUE for his comment towards Daniels "if we are kind it will be a kind world"

OK so HOW does this lot apply to the Plot of the Alien Covenant Sequel?

If we consider for a moment that David views that Mankind has become wicked and corrupt, and we accept that maybe he had a different outlook towards Dr Shaw, but NOW he does-not see that Mankind should be allowed a Chance to Start Over..

If we consider David has a interest in Creation, and then we ask what would he feel about the intentions of the Covenants Mission... He may see the Colonist as maybe NOT 2000 Good Souls!   But what of the Embryos?

If we imagine for a moment that David destroys the Colonist but he allows the Embryos to Grow and become Children then THEY would have NO Knowledge of anything...  they would have NO Wickedness, NO Sin.. David could RAISE those Children to be however if wishes, he is the ONE who could influence their Culture, their Ways, Religion and he could even say to them that HE is there CREATOR...

But HE is Not!.....

But what does he know of the Engineers, those very Human like Engineers he Destroyed, and what about those more Enchanted Engineers he seemed to have a Interest in from Prometheus?  Are those Engineers in Prometheus Engineered?  When David speaks about how the Engineers did-not deserve the Power/Knowledge they had and they abandoned their ways.... could he be referring to those Engineers and their attempts to Perfect themselves?

Perfection/Evolution is a Key Theme, indeed we see that Walter is a Evolution of David... but he lacks the Free-will that David has.  You can be sure that David will upload himself to a Walter Body as i cant see Fassbender playing a One Armed Android.   With David now in a more Perfect Vessel/Body.... what could be his plans for the Colony?

Lets suppose David would not only allow the Embryos to Survive, what if he attempts to Genetically Modify them? To Perfect their Genomes to make them more Superior to Normal Humans.... they would then be his CREATION and maybe he could see these Humans as Worthy of Saving.

And to START a NEW EDEN...

David would have Evolved Mankind, a New Creation at his Hands, in his Image, these Children would be Free from Sin and the ways of Mankind and can be MOLDED to a Civilization that Worships David as Creator and God.

This Process would be Engineered and so Artificial which could make them a AI

What happens when these Enchanted Humans Discover the Truth which they would do eventually when other Humans arrive or Engineers....   But HOW can that fit with the Time-Line?

Maybe David could Engineer these Embryos so they Grow Faster than Regular Humans can?

I CANT HELP BUT WONDER.... with the Sequel in Limbo and the Plot to Raised by Wolves... is this him using some of the ideas he had, that he FEARS he will never get the Chance to Showcase... and so are some ideas from his Alien Covenant Sequel being carried over to Raised by Wolves?

If you have Got this far.... THANK YOU for your time ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

89 Responses to Alien: Exodus

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPDec-02-2018 3:46 PM

I think its interesting to ponder how it connects to Paradise Lost as it appeared this was referenced quite a bit in regards to the sequel to Prometheus, but HOW Literal, and how much had carried over to Alien Covenant is unknown.

If Planet 4 was Paradise then maybe we could look at it in Context to the Biblical Account and Paradise Lost, where Paradise is where the Garden of Eden is located and is a Place where the Creation of Mankind occurred and place that is Secluded/Walled Compound, watched over by Guardian Cherubim Angels

I think Planet 4 and its City do fit that BILL, a Secluded Place on the Whole Planet, Protected, and those Engineers look more Human, we come from them and this means maybe this place is the Origin of our Kind.

Satan/Lucifer and his Fallen Angels were Forbidden from Paradise and Heaven and Banished to HELL and to dwell the Earth

Pandemonium is the City that Lucifer/Satan has created so that they can Reign in Hell, because they refused to Serve in Heaven

Maybe what was ONCE Paradise (Planet 4) had become Pandemonium (this was alleged to have been Prometheus 2 Title as far as a Source i had from Feb 2015 claimed).

Maybe LV-223 could be looked at as Pandemonium too?

I think it is something interesting to PONDER....

I am drawn to seeing David Set-Up a Colony on Origae-6 and Preside Over, where he may even have set up his own kind of Rules/Religion and have Monuments to himself upon it.  These were certainly things i was covering in my Alien: Ascension idea (Alien: Covenant sequel)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Ingeniero

PraetorianMember3422 XPDec-02-2018 4:14 PM

Fangirl Side

"Ridley Scott is simply the best there is in the sci-fi genre," said Sarah Aubrey, executive vp original programming for TNT. "Besides directing some of the most important sci-fi films of all-time, Ridley has created iconic characters from Alien’s Ripley to Prometheus’ Elizabeth Shaw. We're thrilled to have Ridley do the same for us. It's incredibly rare to be able to make television that both challenges one's intellect and also thrills the excited fangirl side — Raised by Wolves is that rare show that does both." (source)

Are the androids in Raised by Wolves women in appearance?

SpecialOrder937.com

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPDec-02-2018 4:46 PM

I will post the PM i sent you Ingeniero as a kind of Summary to the OT

I dont think we will see any W-Y connection as it wont be a Licensed Series based on ALIEN.

But as my Topic was looking at, the next movie was to NOT be about Xenomorphs but to be about AI, and RS had indicated in a related Interview that Replicants were AI which means that RS is thinking of AI as more than Robots... and that a AI can be Flesh and Blood.

Also looking at "what kind of a world would David build" this seems interesting to me, we see David did appear to have respect for Dr Shaw compared to other humans who he felt has not treated him well, which makes me come to the comments about how he said "your very kind of heart" to Dr Shaw.  Then maybe we can look at Davids reply to Daniels when she asked "what kind of a world can we build"  he replies "if we are kind to it, then it can be a kind world"

Next we look at the AURORA - Nature Boy Song

This Fits David very well....

Then we spoke of many things
Fools and kings  (Weyland and Engineers)

Then he said to me:
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is to love and be loved in return"

We see how he felt about Dr Shaw due to how she treated him, compared to his dislike for those who Mistreat him.

Then when we look at the Themes of Prometheus, which is Creation, Knowledge, Free Will and Hubris.  We see from the Weyland Prologue inc Ted Talk, and the Ozymandias Poem that what makes someone God-like is Creation, when we DIE we are remembered by our Deeds, or Creation be that Offspring, or Art or Monuments and Achievements... but eventually all of these Disappear.

If we look at the overall Bigger Picture then we ask... WHAT makes Mankind Wicked Beings, what makes us a Race that GOD would want to Destroy....

Knowledge and Free-will.... Potentially David could become very Dangerous to Mankind.... a Walter lacks the Free-will and Knowledge and he would not Rebel and become Sentient to his own WHIM.

If Adam and Eve never ate from the Forbidden Fruit, they would have been more like a Walter instead of David.   It was the Free-will Perfection that Lucifer had, that lead him to NOT see why his kind should serve GOD.

Noah was Saved from the Flood as GOD deemed him a Good Honest, Clean and Sinless Man... who would Follow Gods Ways....   Moses was given the 10 Commandments as he was deemed the same.

Every Child is Born Sin Free... its their Knowledge Given and Upbringing that Shapes what they become..

The Prequels touch on Perfection Evolution and Pursuit of such things...

If we look at those Colonist, they have their own Free-will, they are Sentient, we dont know if they are Religious or Not.... or if they are KIND or potentially could be Selfish and Wicked..  You could TRY and change the way a Person Can think and behave, but people can be Corrupted, or some are already so and cant change.

A New-Born, or Young Child or anyone who has there Memory Wiped, could be Brought Up with what every Knowledge is passed on and Influenced and Shaped by those who Teach/Raise Them.

For David  such persons could be Manipulated to Behave and See him for however he wishes, even have them see him as their Creator/God.   For the Engineers, if they Deem Mankind cant be Saved.... IF they had taken say a few Hundred Infants they can Raise them to Follow the Engineers Ways/Rules as a Fresh Start... not Corrupted by how Mankind had become.  The same would apply for  a GOD who has seen his Creation become Unruly...... to Save some Children a GOD could MOLD them to follow his ways... this is similar to Noah's Story as GOD deemed him as Pure and Obedient.

If we then go back to the Creation and Perfection Themes..... then for David.... if he raised those Embryos he could have them Follow what ever Rules/Religion and become the KIND of People that David would deem Worthy.   But if we look at the Pursuit of Perfection and Creation, and seeing that David has taken part in Genetic Engineering, then he could Manipulate/Evolve those Embryos to create more Perfect Humans.

Raising them he can Manipulate his Creations to behave and follow what ever Rules/Behavior that David expects.

By Virtue of David Engineering/Perfecting those Embryos which include a increased Growth Rate (which we see often in movies/TV shows that deal with Clones and Genetically Modified Humans) what David would be doing is NOT too far off what TYRELL had in Blade Runner.... thus Davids Engineered Human Embryos would be  ARTIFICIALLY CREATED LIFE-FORM.... a AI.

I do wonder if these kinds of things are CLOSE to what RS may have planned for Alien Covenants Sequel?  They certainly are things i was planning for my sequel (Alien Ascension)

But NO SOON as we have AC2 on Hold and not looking like anything is happening and THEN we have RS Reveal his Raised by Wolves TV Show and that Synopsis... i see in it elements of the above AC2 Plot i pondered.... and i do wonder if this was quite close to what we would have seen?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPDec-02-2018 4:56 PM

"I'm always searching for new frontiers in the sci-fi genre and have found a true original in Raised by Wolves — a wholly distinct and imaginative world, full of characters struggling with existential questions: What makes us human? What constitutes a family? And what if we could start over again and erase the mess we’ve made of our planet? Would we survive? Would we do better? Given TNT's impressive run of bold, quality programming, this feels like exactly the right home for this kind of ambitious television,"

Looking into RS comment above.... the Synopsis in Part is similar to the Covenants Mission.  Only the Covenant never Managed to complete its Mission... but the Sequel would have maybe shown what may happen WHEN David is NOW in control of that Mission.

Regarding the Females... i certainly think we could see a Female Android... in Raised by Wolves... i wonder if the other would be Male?

My Alien Ascension introduced a Female Walter (slightly newer  Synthetic Construct) a Female who David like how Lucifer had done with EVE... a Female he could Manipulate to see his Vision, and Join him..... something he tried with Walter but could not TEMPT him.

She becomes a Love Interest for David... but Ultimately this does-not end well (had few ways to explore it, that i was not quite sure how) but it Ultimately ends with his Love Interest.... becoming the Queen to his Wolves.. and HOW the Xenomorph gains its Bio-Mechanical Appearance.

I do WONDER.... if the AC Sequel could have introduced a Female Synthetic that arrives as part of one of the incoming parties...  or would the Covenant Ship have other Synthetics?

Regarding Raised by Wolves, i would be inclined to assume the Androids would be a Male and Female... but its a case of wait and see i guess.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPDec-02-2018 7:21 PM

David already had a bit of experience of human missions when the Covenant got to planet 4 - in the end he lost his wrist.(granted, he gained something as well from the Covenant)

David got his xenomorph children, the wolves. He might go ahead and make "sheep" ones - human based children, whom he gifts immortality. He will do as he pleases.

And just to recap, at this point he has an effective bio-weapon, but also, an unpredictable and potentially non-cooperative violent species with chips on both of their shoulders digging for resurrection.

So, would it not make sense for David to somehow deal/diffuse the danger factor coming from the mortal species? Can he make use of his children? Can they rebel? What would engineers think of David's creations anyway if they see them? What would humans think of their cousins? Imagine if he uses Daniels to mother his first evolved bio-child. Won't she have a conflict wrt to the organism she gives birth to?

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPDec-03-2018 8:47 AM

Those are interesting Questions...

I think that Genetic Engineering is plausible, if we look at it from Davids Perspective, IF he could create a Human that is Superior to Humans and Engineers, then he would have achieved Greater than his Creator and his Creators Creator too.  IF David can Engineer those Embryos so that they become more Immortal then he would have Unlocked the Secrets that Weyland had came to seek out his Makers for (LV-223).  

This fits very well with the Themes/Philosophy that we saw in Prometheus/Alien Covenant and so when i ASSUME the potential is there for some kind of Plot like this in the Sequel, i am not sure it could be ruled out... 

How would Humanity View such Evolved Humans. They could maybe see them as a THREAT, how would these Super Humans View Humanity?  This depends on what they know and are shown by David.

If you could take some Infants and Raise them on another World or Island you can teach them anything... you could say the MOON is made of Cheese and WHO are they to Question it?   So what ever David wishes to Teach them he can, i think this is a Theme that runs with the Prequels and Paradise Lost...  Knowledge is EVERYTHING

If we look at that Synopsis for Raised by Wolves we can see what a difficult task it is to raise different people who have different views and Religions, as INDEED... if you could Start Again on a NEW World and have ONE Religion, then it would be a ideal way to Control, and Maintain Peace.  (Differences in Culture and Religion/Belief does/can lead to Conflicts).

A interesting thing is when you take some Children and Manipulate what ever Knowledge and Truth to them.... the BIG QUESTION.. is what happens when they DISCOVER the Truth?  So in Davids Example.... they discover that all that DAVID has taught is Lies?  This surely would lead to a Rebellion....  Regarding Raised by Wolves, what happens when the Children who may then have different views on Religion to each other Discover their Faiths are False?

How would the Engineers view David's Enhanced Humans, they could be interested and intrigued in what David has accomplished and interested in David himself... but they could also see them as a THREAT

If the Engineers are the Planet 4 ones, then they could maybe see what David is doing as Echoing what they had done years ago (maybe Genetically Engineer/Evolve those Prometheus Engineers).  And at what COST that may have been, so they could see History Repeat itself with what David is doing (assuming he will try and Engineer his own Humans).

If the Returning Engineers are the Prometheus Ones, and indeed they were a Engineered/Evolved Experiment/Creation by the Planet 4 Engineers or a Faction of those Engineers who had Engineered themselves this way, they could maybe see History Repeat and know what THREAT that could be... because they was that Threat to the Planet 4 Engineers themselves.

These i feel are all the kinds of Interesting Ideas that Ridley Scott is a Fan of, but INDEED these are proving to be a Side-track and Distraction from ALIEN but we have to remember, the Intention at the time of PROMETHEUS was to make a New Franchise that Steers Away from ALIEN. So i dont think RS was 100% happy with the direction Alien Covenant had taken.

Regarding Daniels... maybe she could be used for Davids Genetic Experiments he could use her Reproductive Cells to Engineer Humanoids, he could also use them to Produce Xenomorph Eggs.

Katherine Waterston did say that a while back she had heard some interesting Rumors as far as where they could take her Character.... now i think for her to hear Rumors is more likely she had heard some of the ideas they was pondering with her Character.... but she then said of she could END UP in a Body Bag... i feel that comment is a Acknowledgement that during Period Between Movies that Plans can Change.   Such as the Fate of Dr Shaw... i would have said at the Time of Prometheus and say the 6-12 months after Release, that Dr Shaws Plans would not have been to merely appear as a Corpse.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Ingeniero

PraetorianMember3422 XPDec-03-2018 10:15 AM

"i feel that comment is a Acknowledgement that during Period Between Movies that Plans can Change.   Such as the Fate of Dr Shaw... i would have said at the Time of Prometheus and say the 6-12 months after Release, that Dr Shaws Plans would not have been to merely appear as a Corpse."

That is most likely spot on BigDave. I'm still clinging to hope to see when Dr. Shaw says no to David but I know that's not likely.

It is nice to see Ridley Scott able to explore the concepts he spoke about before...even if it isn't in film nor based in Alien. Ridley Scott said he had around 37 hours of film from shooting Alien: Covenant...so who knows what that includes.

SpecialOrder937.com

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPDec-03-2018 7:56 PM

it is interesting BigDave, to talk about imposing a faith on your children in the context of the movie.

 

It, religion, makes sense if you are mortal though. If you are eternal, the question of who made you and (who made that maker) makes little sense - you have infinite time to figure out how to make living things on your own. However, you might be supplemented by a legend that there is life after death so that you are perhaps pacified this way and lead on a wrong path if you are mortal. In both cases though the goal is the same : eternal life. One reaches it by virtue of not dying, the other way is a eternal life after death. So it makes sense to question which way is better. Of two ways only one has benefit of serializing them, that is trying out both ways : suppose you are immortal - you can always decide for yourself the other way - life after death.

So, if David grants his children some sort of immortality(by regen, or just making them that much durable in the first place) then he doesn't need to give them a "legend"(in time, inescapably, they will figure out for themselves if what they were told is true or not). On the other hand, he will have to indoctrinate his children one way or the other if he doesn't make them immortal - otherwise he will not be able to contain the quest for immortality, unless he bans technology(Promethean fire).

I think this movie has numerous intriguing possibilities, if one rejects the "march towards inevitable". The question is how will the money paying individuals decide.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPDec-05-2018 3:55 PM

"unless he bans technology(Promethean fire)."

This is a interesting point to raise, one i pondered about including in my ideas for a AC Sequel....  So its not beyond the realms of possibility if David does say raise Engineered Human Embryo's that he could have this Colony/Culture set up on a Part of the Planet were they Build their World with Simple Means, so that they would be living with Technology that was not available say a 1000 years ago.

A LITERAL Building of Cabins on a Lake and with some Religious/Cultist Element brought in then it could be like using some of the WOODEN World but instead of a Like Wooden Death Star....  have this to literally show a Colony that has Shunned Technology in favor of more simple Life.

We kind of get the idea the Planet 4 Engineers may have taken this route themselves...  

I wonder where David would have PARKED the Covenant, and surely at times he would go back and forth to where it was, it would be a Question of HOW and WHAT happens if those Colonist he Raised Discovered it?

I guess it would depend on WHAT David had told about the Covenant, its Mission and HOW those Colonist got there.. Off Course this means regarding Raising of Children or Engineered Embryos.... and not the Covenants Adult Occupants as they would be aware of all of this.

Could David had used the Technology to a Certain Point to Build his  Colony/Outpost and then SHUNNED and Abandoned the Technology?  There is so many ways to have explored what David does and what kind of a World would be Built.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPDec-05-2018 4:45 PM

Well, those engineers that visited earth way back when certainly had the technology. But they never shared it with humans - humans are not shown roaring the galaxy in alien tech ships.

So will David share some of his knowledge(even better if goes on building an advanced civilization) or he will make it stone-age, celibacy style society.

It would be funny though if engineers arrive at the planet to find out David replicate planet 4, except for humans instead of engineers in those robes.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPDec-07-2018 3:33 PM

I think thats the Interesting Question...

From the Engineers Perspective, they obviously kept us at only CERTAIN Level of Technological Advancement, not even to the LEVEL of the Planet 4 Engineers. (Not including the Juggernauts and Hanger).  It would be interesting to see WHY those Planet 4 Engineers do-not use the Technology, apart from Catering for Returning Engineer Ships.  Is this a Technology they are only Permitted to use for limited reasons as deemed by the HIERARCHY above the Engineers?  Or did they Shun Technology apart from where required (to visit other Worlds).   

So that would be like a Amish Community having a Few Wagons (Automobiles)  they only use AS/WHEN they venture away from their Community to bring in Supplies they Need that they dont GROW/HARVEST themselves?

I think the Engineers had a concern and Fear of what happens if Mankind was to be granted a Equal Footing to them Technologically and its SAFE to assume once they abandoned us, they thought we would never ADVANCE without their help....  They was WRONG.

I think David would have learned such things during his years spent after the Doomed Prometheus Mission, and so its a interesting Question of HOW MUCH Technology he would allow his Colonist to Possess.

What kind of a Culture David Builds could be Interesting, especially if he Creates a Civilization that go about as the Engineers intended for Mankind.

How would a Race of Would Be Gods... view David Creating Perfection compared to their Efforts (Deacon, Mankind) and what would the FACT that David can maintain Order and Worship when the Engineers so dearly Failed!

Do they gain a Respect for David?  Or do they become Bitter and Jealous of his PARADISE?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPDec-08-2018 12:48 PM

Abandonment.

Just so we do not misrepresent the 2012 Vision of the Engineers relationship with Mankind.

The Engineers continued to visit Earth right up until they were destroyed. Indeed one tablet suggests they came after but that may have been the result of embedded transmitted lore given they would not have offered their location after they were destroyed.

When Charlie speculated that they abandoned us on the night before his death he was unaware that they were intent on destroying us 2,000 years ago. That revelation would come mid afternoon the next day.

In philosophical terms they abandoned mankind because they decided for reasons, which Damon thinks are made in clear in the movie, to replace us with their own sub created species.

They never left us be they came taught implanted memories and then decided we needed to be replaced 2,000 years ago.

Given the technology of Earth circa A D it would not be plausible that they feared us, they simply wanted to replace us and the specific reason for having that view and their relationship to mankind is in the movie.     

   

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1691 XPDec-10-2018 7:09 AM

Michelle J:

Nah, I don’t think that it is clear why they decided to abandon us. Lindelof (if that is his opinion on it) is wrong, there is no clear explanation to why they wanted to abandon us. One problem is that the movie is too vague about some things and that is one of them. My guess is that it could be because we started wars and treated the planet in a bad way even though that is not what the writers had as an explanation but I take it as bad writing and/or execution of it.

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPDec-11-2018 1:55 AM

@Thoughts_Dreams

For the record it is completely clear to Damon Lindelof executive producer and writer and Ridley Scott director and Michelle Johnston viewer but not you and you are not alone. No worries.

What is left unclear is why they had that kind of relationship with their creations. Elizabeth understood the nature of the relationship but did not understand why they would have that view and whereas David believed it did not matter Elizabeth did primarily because it contradicted her faith view of creation. Both Ridley and Noomi expressed a view as to what that answer would be and that the answer would be even more challenging for Noomi. The key lay in Davids relationship with his creator as expressed in the film between David and Charlie.

In a low exposition narrative characters do not say things merely for the sake of it. They mean something, a tent pole audience is very bad at picking up those cues wanting "tell us what your going to tell us, tell us and tell us what you told us." a standard technique employed in presentational learning.

I will not provide the answer because it is something which I may or not have concluded applies to Prometheus Regained which several more people will shortly read. 

 

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPDec-11-2018 5:24 AM

The movie(P & A:C) is very vague and is rather open ended which is why we still have talking points about the movie in 2018.

This also makes it rather silly for one to lay claim to know how it will all go down canonically in future with any certainty(should it ever even have one). Just raise hands how many of you predicted the faith of Shaw in A:C after having watched the P(and the salivating add-on sequence of A:C, the "crossing")? It sure took me by surprise, to say the least.

I would caution anyone to make definitive assertions on what is obvious and is rather common knowledge(and is supposedly implied by/and including seemingly implicit events in the movie) especially when one is interpreting subtleties and over analyzing some of the sequences or dialogs in the movies : while the dialogs themselves are explicit, their interpretations are not as definitive and plain. For instance, lots of people think the white room we see at the start of AC has a vista of the Prometheus seeding sequence. Is that so? If so, how certain is that? People might figure as follows: it can't be a coincidence that those picturesque views are mere chance events - they must be views of the same place in the movie. Indeed, they might be, but only for cost saving reasons - doing a CGI is actually costly (more so than shooting real things btw), so they might have reused some of the footage of P in AC, but without trying to make it seem as if Weyland had knowledge of what happened thousands of years ago and for that reason chose that view to have in his white room. So some might surmise that it was deliberately put so into the story, others might think otherwise. Another example : remember that deacon mural/carving at the back of the head in P? A lot of people surmised lots of things from that thing. But then it was told that the prop guys decided just to stick it there because they thought it was cool with no purpose as far as story telling goes.

So it is not all that quite plain when you are taking some things for certain. And it is even more questionable when you lay your own foundation for your story upon those already shaky assumptions.

Also, remember, that Ridley can change his mind, sometimes right in the middle of the movie. Or rather he can be swayed : just recall his annoyance at the suggestion that ALIEN fans wanted more of the beast on screen and his subsequent apparent frustration at this change when he said - "you wanted the alien, I will give you the f*cking alien". I love Ridley :) This bit rather suggested that he hadn't planned to have that alien in the movie but he caved. So it was changed, if not at the stage of principal photography but certainly somewhere between the pick-ups and the editing - ie, in the midst of producing the movie.

Phew...all this just to say that is not as linear and simple and definitive as it might look initially.

However, having the benefit of hindsight, this should be easy : lets take a rather coarse look and point out the underlying motives of the movie and its characters.

From the original P in the AC we only have one character continuing his own inquiry(if you can call it that) - David. All others are dead, because their major themes have been explored, done and dusted as far as movie makers are concerned.

*Weyland - dead, ultimate quest of Peter was immortality.

*Vickers - she is second rate, supporting character to Peter Weyland, which was only used to show us how ruthless and determined Peter was wrt to his quest of immortality. In fact he considered David to be closer to being his child(who is immortal) than his own biological daughter(who is mortal) - this again reinforces what Weyland wanted. Her role was to show us how Peter didn't want to die and become history. In fact her role was to cement precisely that : Peter wanted immortality above all else, so much so that she never got her head around what her father actually wanted - it was a surprise to her when her father rejected her plea( King has his reign and then he ... ).

*Shaw - is a jolly character that we were supposed to get behind. After all she was this plain Jane, with the traditional religious upbringing going on about her innocent research(the target audience people are targeted right here by her character) quest for discovery of her "noble" engineers and test if there is intelligent conception and what are they like. She had her mother and then father taken by quite unfortunate set of events. Plus she can't conceive and her friend is forsaken in a disturbing way. All this made her our main anchor point.

We soon learned that she was expecting more nobility from her makers than what she got. She died along with Charlie, who was another anchor(the non-religious, skeptical scientist) who was also rather secondary, a stepping stone. Charlie was all for adventure and ultimately he got what he wanted - he would give everything and anything(he didn't value his life like Weyland did - recall how easily he took off his helmet without any regard for his own safety) - so the dealer gave him a fair trial by science! - the goo was going to either evolve him (it did!) or kill him.

Btw, just a concurrent thought: what do you think would Weyland choose given a chance : either die of old age like he was going to anyway, or take the goo having the benefit of knowledge of what it did to Holloway?

Now, David, Shaw and Charlie had a sort of a love triangle going on which was supposed to give us more info on how David operated, on human level - it was supposed to show his affection, if he had any towards humans. He emphatically did - that is, for him humanity is not all bad - some(one) of them he even loved(in his own way).

With a shock, Shaw's story was ended abruptly. I suppose it is so because her story ended and movie makers were on a tight budget - her quest was to find out if there was an intelligent conception behind it all. But the inevitable and intriguing iterative question of Shaw(and us) of who created the makers of the makers is proven to be pointless to pursue by the movie makers(of course, this quest would completely derail all the ALIEN/Prometheus themes - nobody would care about the beast, Weyland, David and any of that any more) we get rather unpalatable resolution on one of the main characters.

Of course, instead we get Daniels and Tee as substitutes. I don't want to bother with other characters in A:C - they were there solely as canon fodder. Except for one point : again the movie makers take the piss out of the traditional religious followers in the sense that if you believe in providence, boy, you don't know where you are getting into. This is a second character of faith in P and AC that we are shown to be harrowed by the events in the movie and this can't be a coincidence now, can it? And the message is this : your traditional faith is not a good guide for galaxy exploration, you can have it if you like it but don't rely on it too much to bring you a happy outcome. If anything you better think that reality is much more cruel than what your dogmatic book tells you.

 

So in the end the algebra/balance is as follows : we only got David left from the original movie. Other characters are dead and expended and it is safe to say their quests are also explored.

 

But the quest of David is very very open. He was shown to appreciate some humans and not very fond of human vices.

He has potent technology at his disposal. He might instill a dogmatic view on his followers(religion!). Supposedly we also have other parties coming on : engineers with apparently revenge theme to explore(war is always a shrewd choice for money making it seems). We have a ship full of technology, humans and embryos in hibernation. It makes sense to consider and explore the topics of evolution of organic life and synthetic life, in different directions of singularity, ie: transhuman life: human soul in the body of bio/synthetic shell, AI having organic body and bio-chemical experiences - love, fathering an offspring(creation), genetic engineering and evolving humans.

These are hardly novel topics on their own, but do not be quick to discard the idea of exploration of these topics in the world of ALIEN universe. Hollywood already showed us that these artificial+organic characters in the past that have a lasting, passionate(money paying) following. Think of certain Anakin Skywalker - Darth Vader, he was half robotic at some point wasn't he? Think Alex Murphy the Robocop. Recall the Robocop vs ED209 action. One is half human the other is completely metal. Think (Cain) - ugh, what a nightmare was that. The point is this : people can get behind a good character, no matter if he was a human or not originally. I hope FOX are reading this: David still can turn out to be a good guy(read he can still make money) - he can redeem himself, if that is your thing: imagine if he is the fellow who stops engineers trying to carry out their original plan(wipe out earthlings) at the cost of his life. The story can progress in many unpredictable ways - in fact it is safe to assume that we again have a blank sheet of paper only with a certain and fixed beginning and uncertain, unfixed end. Btw, the end only needs to leave a clue as to who ends up as the big guy - that is to say, the fact that there is this notion of march towards to inevitable doesn't mean we can't get quite an intriguing, *open ended* movie.

 

In any case, the very fact that we are still having all these topics here shows that there is potential there. Alas, Ridley doesn't have a metal body.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPDec-11-2018 8:36 AM

@BioDegradable

 

 

I will not be responding to your post. I would appreciate it if you would not make any further remarks about my work. By offering Damon and Ridley's clearly stated view on why the Engineers wished to redact mankind in AD Zero might imply that is the view I have taken, I may or may not. My view is very simple its my view nothing more nothing less.

Many Thanks.

My original point was a simple one there was no period of abandonment merely abandonment by wanting to rescind.

 

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPDec-11-2018 8:55 AM

Michelle Johnston

"if you would not make any further remarks about my work."

Are you not taking all this a bit too seriously - one, and two - please, remind us(me) since when does this board has some rules regarding "your work"? What is it that you claim to be your work anyway? In the context of this very thread(or board)? Quote the thing that upset you, where I supposedly made remarks about your work or even discussed your work. I hereby state that I am not interested in your works whatsoever. Never read it before and therefore never cared. Btw, do you consider your posts here as your work?

Your view is your view and nothing more, as is the view of Thoughts_Dreams just above or my own, indeed.

I just can't see how your passive aggressive call out is justified really.

PS: In fact, I would appreciate it whole lot more if you posted a critique, a logical argument, relevant and poignant enough wrt to the topic discussed.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPDec-11-2018 6:43 PM

"I would caution anyone to make definitive assertions on what is obvious and is rather common knowledge"

@BioDegradable

Certainly that is a big point, the Movies are a bit vague and open to interpretations and NO matter what Plan/Objective they had, things can CHANGE as they go along...   The Portrayal of the Engineers after we had Alien Covenant is different to a degree to what those Engineers were at the time of Alien Engineers, which changed somewhat by the Time Lindeloff came and re-worked the Plot.    We need only WONDER how many changes are made by the time Paglen, Green, Harper and Logan had made, certainly the Starting Point A (Paglen) to End Point Z (Logan) would have had a number of Plot Changes. 

I find it unlikely that at Point A which would have been somewhat a continuation of ideas Lindeloff and Ridley Scott had discussed.. would have led us to a Dr Shaw with so little Screen Time and a Xenomorph Created by David.. but this just shows how much things change.

We can all try and are entitled to our own oppinions and trying to figure out this and that, and have our own ideas of where it could or should have gone... but they are all a bit MOOT as far as what we eventually get which always comes down to what those who PAY $$$$ to Produce the Movies think is BEST.... hence the RS comment "they want $^$&%* Aliens i will give them £!$"%^£^ Aliens"

"For instance, lots of people think the white room we see at the start of AC has a vista of the Prometheus seeding sequence. Is that so? If so, how certain is that?"

Another fine example of how people can read into something thats not intended to mean anything too deep.. I believe the Scene, is just as with the Nativity Painting  its to connect to us that the Scene is about Davids Creation, the Nativity Painting is to show us that David just as Jesus is not a Traditional Human, he is different, Enhanced and Special.  The Backdrop that matches the Prometheus Sacrificial Scene is there to make a Connection, that this is about a CREATION Event.  Its Symbolic nothing more, nothing less... well IMO.... but it had lead some to speculate that Weyland must have been to Planet 4 or know exactly were we was Created From....

The Mural is another one.. in Prometheus.. it was not there to merely be COOL... it was there to in part be a Tribute to Giger, a Easter Egg and in part to contain some link so we can make a connection that the Xenomorph, and Engineers Experiments are connected.   It was vague, and many elements where never meant to have any deep connection, the Face Huggers/Engineers merely a Easter Egg, the Mural itself to bring some vague Xenomorph/Deacon connection that adds some Visual WOW to a Set... so yes to LOOK COOL.

Yet it has been a Topic of Hot Debate over the years... yet it merely could be a Red Herring... Ultimately it allows for many interpretations on how the Engineers, Xenomorph, Black Goo and Deacon are connected.   But regardless of how we all interpret these connections and the Mural, the Question has to be was there any real DEEP Reason for it and that seems to be NOT REALLY.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPDec-11-2018 7:09 PM

" Indeed one tablet suggests they came after"

Certainly Michelle, we never really get any explanation  to WHY we had later Star Maps after the Engineers Mission 2000 years ago went to POT.... it does allow us to think they must have came back... but WHY... this really is something maybe those working on the Project had any real explanation for..   So its open for Interpretation, and when i consider it i wonder if they ACTUALLY never Left?  I consider the Jesus Emissary Angle  IF this is a misinterpretation by Mankind... much as maybe Dr Shaws Faith is, and in Reality Jesus was a Emissary then could it be possible the Engineers sent Emissaries to other Continents, and maybe this is where the later Star Maps came from after the Engineers Abandoned us.

"They never left us be"

Indeed in a continuation of the previous reply... i think the Engineers had not abandoned us, as you said, they had intended to use the Black Goo on us... well those on LV-223 at very least...    The Interesting Question becomes after this FAILED... WHY had they not come back to Finish the Job?

We have to look at the Engineers on Planet 4 for that and ASK... did they know about our Creation and intended Destruction?  was those LV-223 Engineers creating us without the knowledge of those on Planet 4 (who are the Original Engineers). its all pretty open to debate.  We can maybe assume all the Engineers on LV-223 Died apart from that SURVIVOR...  So they did-not abandon us, they wanted to WIPE the Slate Clean... likely..

But the Big Question is where are the other Engineers and did they all share the same Idea/Intention for Mankind?  IF so then its likely after the Failed Attempt... those other Engineers Abandoned us and decided to leave us to ROT.. we are only ONE of maybe Many Worlds they seed Life and so they could leave us to Destroy ourselves and in their HUBRIS they would think we could NEVER advance to be a Threat without their HELP.

"Given the technology of Earth circa A D it would not be plausible that they feared us"

Certainly we can see there is NO reason to fear us at this stage, the Question is did some of them maybe Fear as we had become Sentient and Unruly and are close to the Engineers, that its the Knowledge/Technology we dont have that makes us NO threat... could they be concerned of what would happen if we GAINED this?  But its maybe likely the Engineers are so Naive and Arrogant that they feel without their Help, we would have just remained as Cave Men and so if they abandon us we cant ever evolve more than were we was at 2000 years ago... to a Great Hubris.

I feel this is one of the MAIN themes at play... Knowledge for if David was like Walter, then there would be no Threat or Xenomorph, if Lucifer was like the Angels there would be no Fall/Rebellion etc.   Ridley Scott said they created the Bio-Weapons (Engineers) as a means to Protect against Unruly Creations  and to Wipe Worlds Clean.

The Revelation about the Planet 4 Engineers being Originals, and RS comments about AI and how he sees the Replicants as a AI, has led me to ponder are those LV-223 Engineers similar to the Replicants... had they rebelled against the Planet 4 Engineers?  so could they have same concerns about their own Creations? 

Its down to what connection are the Planet 4 and LV-223 Engineers and which are connected to our Creation that could Answer this... its a case of is this something that would ever get explored or answered? 

"Both Ridley and Noomi expressed a view as to what that answer would be and that the answer would be even more challenging for Noomi. The key lay in Davids relationship with his creator as expressed in the film between David and Charlie."

That certainly is something i am drawn to, and maybe the revelation of our Creation, is not far from the revelation to come about the LV-223 Engineers and the Original Planet 4 ones, and who created them... and maybe we will see a Constant Pattern, and so the Answers to our Creation could be staring us in the face with David.

"in a low exposition narrative characters do not say things merely for the sake of it. "

Absolutely i think that the Dialog and what we hear or are told gives more clues to what Visually we are shown.  And some may pay more attention to the Visuals, yet these could be a Red Herring... and certainly a lot has changed Visually by what changes are made and cuts and alternative scenes.

It all comes down to personal Interpretation and the Beauty of Prometheus was it leaves it very open, were we can all have our own interpretations... indeed there was some kind of PLAN to how things may have gone, but we see things are constantly evolving.   The Plot Change to David creates the Xenomorph is a Prime Example.  Something that could be changed in response again to Fans not being HAPPY..

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPDec-11-2018 7:48 PM

You brought excellent points, BigDave, about it all being a bit haphazard, mish-mash hodge-podge throw it to the wall kind of approach.

On reflection, having watched most of the behind scenes, do***entaries, interviews you get to realize that these movies are made by numerous people, in non-linear fashion(with many revisions, sometimes radical) with lots of incompatible ideas thrown in, and it all has to meet lots of hard constraints - after all, it is an exercise in making profits. All of that manifests in a product that has lots of ambiguity(at best) and kinks in unexpected places.

Ultimately, it is the frustration of the viewer's expectation when the movie tells a disconcerted story, where a naive viewer expects a highly coherent, watertight story, something as worked out as a mathematical theory over decades, that rewards inquisitive and diligent mind for his attention ... but in the end gets something full of unpleasing holes. The Q is : "Who is to blame?". I figured out, admittedly a bit late, over time, that it was me filled with unreasonable expectations: it is actually highly naive to expect a sci-fi movie tell an accurate story of human conception(origin story of the universe itself). And knowing at this point the recipe how most movies are made, I can't really blame movie makers either for their choices going for ambiguity. Because it is far cheaper to leave things underspecified, rather than building overly detailed micro-world. This approach is also risk averse : what if your effort doesn't get noticed(rewarded) and yet you put too much in effort & budget and in time into details? You hardly will get a second chance as a director. On a plus side, if you tell a concise story, perhaps underspecified(vague) you can't really run into inconsistencies - the story is too short to contradict itself at some point. With ambiguity(and some silliness), all you risk is causing a bit of confusion for your viewers (and apparently some ramblings about the "work" they can come up with. I was almost literally told "look at my works ye mighty and despair").

All this is supposed to be common knowledge. But it is hard to decide beforehand as to how much you should be raising your expectations with these movies. Ridley is generally excellent director - he picks his movies wisely. And his ALIEN movies have generally been very very good in that respect. Certainly, well done.

Now I should go back and try and figure out why those engineers did what they did :)

I won't - their mystique is as intriguing as nature of Jerry's disrespect of a famous cat Tom. Engineers are intriguing because they are the embodiment of the unknown, our mental projections of what unknown stands for and as such attracts and intrigues us. It is a brilliant trick by movie makers. They exploited the notion of bewilderment that phrase "if you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you" induces on a thoughtful person. Bravo. I should perhaps say at this point : don't do it, unless you have unlimited life span :)

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPDec-11-2018 11:02 PM

@BigDave

Thank you for having the graciousness to acknowledge my correction. The Engineers did not abandon mankind. They decided 2,000 years ago after six do***ented visits that they wish to redact mankind and replace it with their own sub creation. Mankind the audience of Prometheus looks for a deep meaningful and complicated reason for this decision. The answer is simple and expressed in the film. Prometheus refracts its audience. Did the Engineers judge anything significant happened at AD Zero quite possibly Ridley thought so. 

BioDegradable

“And it is even more questionable when you lay your own foundation for your story upon those already shaky assumptions.” This refers to my work in your post and the shaky grounds it was based on. 

I will now switch to male Australian for my reply. “You know nothing about how my books work so shut the f… up mate!

Back to gentle English. There is a ten page 4333 word glossary which covers the rule book I wrote before writing the story.

You might, though I doubt it, find it interesting to note that whilst I have received very supportive criticism of many aspects of the story regarding its weakness's, which has only made me work even harder to raise my game not one single person has raised the endless BS that permeate this forum. I spent 25 minutes writing my rule book whereas I can spend 25 minutes on one paragraph of dialogue or situational experience because in the end Ridley and Damon did all the donkey work on what an Intelligent Creation might mean. I simply hardened the understanding of what it means made it more coherent filled in the blanks.

Its a remarkably simple story science, faith accompanied by knowledge go in search of their answers and none of them are right. LMG knew the movie he was in. So did Noomi who knew she was an uneasy confluence of faith and archaeological intellect and guessed that when she moved closer to the heart of an intelligent creation things would get even more challenging for her faith and her fathers. 

I do not buy your mock indignation, attention seeking or rambling light weight posts and I do not give a fig if you post another attempt at bait and switch. "My work" is way to precious and valuable to me to allow you to hijack it.

What exposes people like you is every so called answer you are after can be found in the quiet of your own computer but of course that does not allow you to rattle cages and create your own little dramas. Out !

@BigDave

You and I have diametrically opposed views about how to approach these matters but we are adults and agree to disagree but I am sorry that your thread has been taken up by this. 

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPDec-12-2018 12:02 AM

@BioDegradable

I think that pretty much hits the nail on the head, and shows what a mess we are currently in, regarding where these Prequels have ended up taking us....

If we go back to prior to the Prequels we was left pretty much a few Questions..

Special Order 937 where did this come from and how much did the company know.

But the Main Question/Mystery was the Derelict, its Cargo, the Pilot and what he was doing with the Cargo.

In Hindsight maybe this was a Mystery best left as such... as sometimes when you attempt to give answers the answers can end up disappointing to some Fans and NOT what they hoped for and currently i think where we are NOW is Testament to that.

But they attempted to address the Mystery with the Prequels, starting with Jon Spaights and Ridley Scotts ideas, that lead to Alien Engineers... were they decided to go the Chariots of the Gods Plot... which opened up a Massive Scope but one that was always going to be a Poisoned Chalice...  by the time we have Lindeloff come in, they decided that actually we dont need the Xenomorph Origins or Xenomorphs at all and we should concentrate on the Space Jockey Race, and the Creation Plot, expanding it to Philosophical Questions about Mortality, Creation a Soul and other Themes... which makes for a Pretty Interesting Potential Plot...   but one which distracts away from ALIEN but this was the intention at the point that Lindeloff signed off from the Project...

Setting up a Potential Meeting of our Makers for Answers with David and Dr Shaw being used to give us those answers or maybe not, certainly maybe not how Dr Shaw would have wanted.  Maybe we would have got some information on LV-223 more about its connection and purpose, but then it could have completely left the Outbreak and Purpose as a NEW Mystery.  It was quite a open ended PLOT as far as what it would cover or would not... but it certainly was intended to STEER away from ALIEN and the Xenomorph, and it certainly would have been showing us David and Dr Shaw arriving at Paradise... but what they find is the Big Question...

There seemed to be some Broad Strokes that would be followed, which included they would reach this World of the Would be Gods, or connected to them.... and discover these beings are not Benevolent or Gods... and that David would be bringing Hell with him.  (Black Goo).

I think the ambiguity of Prometheus and Scope, allowed for many debates, regarding Creation, the Engineers, the Black Goo, LV-223 and how it connects to the Xenomorph.  The Problem is not knowing how much of these would be covered and the Xenomorph and ALIEN looked to be passed by.

The Set up was interesting to a number of people, i feel Michelle certainly felt there was potential MISSED by the U-Turn Plot Change to please the Fanboys and Give us the Xenomorph Origins at the expense of most of the Set-Up regarding the Engineers, and Dr Shaw and what answers could be granted from her Quest for Answers.

So its become a mess... its become something that NOW has a tough time to please everyone... much harder task..

In Hindsight the Mystery should have been left, or explored the Space Jockey with something more ALIEN that is not connected to Mankind.  So that we never had that Pandora's Box that has been opened with the Plot for Prometheus.  But on the Flip side it seemed Ridley Scott had some very interesting things he wished to cover, that would have woven Mankind, the Engineers and AI into a Philosophical Thought Provoking Epic (potentially).... but at the cost of being a Distraction to all things ALIEN which for many Fans is what a Prequel should not be about despite Prometheus setting up a Story that WAS to steer away from ALIEN and certainly opened up a Passionate Clientele/Fanbase who wanted more than another Alien Resurrection.

The Xenomorph had been explored over and over.... but we still did not know its ORIGINS or how the SPACE JOCKEY Race are connected and their Origins and Purpose...

Such attempts at a Origins Prequel for both would always be filled with Expectations, that would Ultimately never be accomplished to every fans wishes...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPDec-12-2018 12:25 AM

@Michelle

Its always good to have different views on how things could/should have been explored...  your replies have not De-railed this thread at all...

Because actually the thread is intended to get us to think of how RS will tackle some of those Themes, and Philosophical Questions that it seemed he wanted to answer after Prometheus.  

Dr Shaw may have gone, but i think a lot of the things she may have found out, are things we could maybe had explored in the sequels to Alien Covenant. 

Creation, what does that mean, a Soul what does that constitute, were do we go when we Die.... what is Faith/Religion in context to the Franchise.  while we never get to see Dr Shaw Face those would be GODs for such answers...   i think RS is still trying to touch upon them in context to maybe showing us that the Answers are NOT quite what Dr Shaw's faith would have us to be drawn too...

But offer us a interesting outlook on such Questions....

The Soul seems to be a interesting one.... and RS is very keen on AI and so it would have been interesting to see where this would have gone at the time of Prometheus 2, to where this can go with Alien Covenant 2 set up....

The theme of Perfection and Evolution is something thats very Evident..  and so indeed that Quest for Immortality and what makes a Soul/After-Life could be something that does not exist... not according to Scripture....   But a None-Human Android like David who does-not have a Soul per-say.... but if they went for a Truth where Mankind does not possess one either (a Spiritual Form that lives on after Death).  Then indeed David could be the one who is closest to having any such thing... should his AI be able to be Uploaded and Transferred into a Network of Computers or from Synthetic to Synthetic...

When we look at it further as far as the FUTURE of our Evolution, the next Big Gains in Evolution could well be Artificial as we Genetically Engineer ourselves..  What happens when we can FINALLY Transfer our Human Soul (Memories, Feelings, Emotions and Personality) into a AI system.... we would maybe have achieved a Soul/After-life all but via Artificial Means..

I have been drawn to these being the things RS was interested in, and he may have explored these using Dr Shaws Faith as a Anchor Point and David being the Polar Opposite as far as a Created Machine that maybe goes in the Face of Biblical Concepts..

It would have been interesting to see where it could have gone, but i have always been drawn to the conclusion that what Dr Shaw discovered is going to be FAR from some Magical Being/Race that Created Mankind to Watch Over, Love and Cherish like a Mother Loves her Child.  That then had No-Choice to Destroy us because we Rebelled and had upset our Creators...

I think the KEY to how it would have been explored would depend on WHY we was created, WHY the Engineers was created, and maybe the Revelations are not far off WHY we had David Created.

If we look at every Mythos, Religion they share some common themes.  Connected to HOW/WHEN/WHY we was Created, but they also have some differences and i think what RS was going to show us could have been interesting and NOT something that would match what Dr Shaw had been brought up to Believe...

If this assumption is accurate... i feel it really could have made a Dramatic Arc for how Dr Shaws Character would behave.. It was likely she was never going to meet a GOD who fitted what her Faith had lead her to believe...

But again this is mainly what i have been drawn to, and who knows what route RS had intended to pursue it... but its always interesting to see what other people feel could have happened or how they would have tackled these things.

I think in part AC2 would have touched upon some of these things.... it certainty did not seem like it would be a David Creates Hordes of Eggs, waits for W-Y and Engineers and then we get a AVP kind of Movie!  Not how i interpreted RS Comments.... but i felt the 2nd sequel could have gone this route and Ultimately gave us a Alien Xenomorph Movie that would conclude or give clues to HOW/WHEN those Eggs end up on the Derelict.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10416 XPDec-12-2018 12:51 AM

I have a feeling that the connection between the LV-223 Engineers and David and the Deacon/Xenomorph could be revealed to be pretty close.

It makes little sense for  a Race of Humanoids who go around Seeding Worlds, to then just decide about 2000 years ago to then Replace us with some Xenomorph/Deacon Organism...

We have to ask was this the intention 35'000 years ago?

Was LV-223 always a Place to Produce Bio-Logical Weapons related to the Deacon DNA?  of had this happened at some point in future and was this done by at the time a Faction of Engineers... But now could be shown the Engineers in Prometheus were more closer to David and the Replicants.

The Answer to WHY we was created has to be the BIGGEST one in regards to Gauge why the Engineers would want to replace us with the Deacon...

If David is essentially similar to those LV-223 Engineers, then maybe Davids intentions for his Creation of the Xenomorph may mirror those intentions of those Engineers on LV-223 to Create the Deacon.

The Reason/Purpose of our Creation is the KEY to how any answers would unfold....  

Ridley Scott referred to those Engineers as Fallen Angels which could indicate those Engineers had rebelled against their Creators/Brothers and the intended Purpose and are Jealous over the Creation of Mankind.

If those LV-223 Engineers were Created or had Engineered themselves and in doing so had become Fallen... or they was created this way but Rebelled.... if these Enhanced Engineers do-not posses the ability to Create Life... not like Humans can, or indeed how those Planet 4 Original Engineers could...  If they are Created/Engineered to Serve a Purpose for those Planet 4 Engineers then we have to ask HOW does coming into contact with a Parasite that allows them to GIVE BIRTH to a Deacon be viewed by these Fallen Engineers. 

If they are tasked with using their DNA to seed and Evolve Worlds, at the command of those Planet 4 Engineers which they are Superior to... could we not see the same things happen with them as David has with how he views Mankind?   Would those Engineers then see the Organism (Deacon) as a Perverted way for them to Create and that this Deacon is more Perfect than their own Engineer DNA and so wish to EVOLVE and Corrupt Mankind with a Unholy Upgrade?

Similar could be used if we consider those LV-223 Engineers are just Planet 4 Engineers who Genetically Evolved themselves to become Superior at the Cost of losing the Ability to Procreate.... would they deem their Engineered Bodies as Superior to the Brothers on Planet 4?

If they encountered a Parasite that Lead to the Deacon... or related, would they then see this as a Perverted way they could Create, and from their Death rises a Organism they see as more PERFECT? If so then you could understand why they would want to then seed this Organism DNA to other Worlds...

There are many ways this could have been explored as far as the reason they would want to replace us.... some even speculate that our Creation was solely for that Purpose... but it seems the whole Creation of Mankind (especially if we assume the Sacrificial Scene was the way it began for us) is something that takes a Long Time and Investment if the intention was Create a Humanoid to be used to be a Host for the Deacon/Xenomorph.   And if this was the intention, then we certainly did not need any Teachings, what difference is 1000 Human Souls of the Covenant, compared to 1000 Cave-Men Souls when using them for the Black Goo?

I feel that LV-223 and its Purpose was not the same at the point of 2000 or so years ago, compared to what this place maybe have been 35'000 years ago.

That went a bit off Topic.... but what i am saying is i feel that RS is drawing us to see a connection between David and the LV-223 Engineers, be it via David being similar or that David would attempt with those Embryos maybe what had been done to those Planet 4 Engineers to become those Enhanced LV-223 Guys.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPDec-12-2018 1:12 AM

Michelle Johnston,

yeah, all this noise, but can you substantiate what it is upsetting you exactly? Just quote it. I mean, do you have anything to be angry and upset about of substance? What is it precisely? In any case, keep your odious attitude to yourself and in check.

As for "your work". Note, you never answered the question if you consider your posts on this board as part of your work. I have no idea what "your work" is about since I never read it, so obviously I can't judge it in any way...but I understand it must be important. Right, lets take a look.

Looking at your reply: "4333", "25", "25", "endless" one can see you like keeping some sort of superficial numerology/statistics. Take for instance the 25 minutes you talk about. Could it have been 24 minutes that you spent on "rule book"? Perhaps 26 minutes? Are you sure it is 25 minutes anyhow, and how precisely did you time it. In any case, is it significant that it is 25 minutes? Do you post after noon or right after midnight?

In your reply to me anyway, in 27 lines of it you used the pronoun "I" 11 times and "you/your" 10 times. Why is my person so important to you? Do I feature as much in your works? Do you know me? Anyways, what is it about you and your indignation you express here, what is it if not an attention seeking from you? Do you do it subconsciously, since apparently you accuse me of it, and this is a classical Freudian slip from you. I presume you think this is bad, which is bad only so if take this behavior to extreme and you indulge in it unknowingly to your person, ie you are a complete nutter. But do you actually see that all you are doing here is just attention seeking and looking for self justification? Btw, I don't condone your actions - go and seek such attention : test your ideas, share your writings etc. Create your own thread. Obey the rules and all that. But there is actually no reason to be such territorial about it. Remember - I don't work here. Your posts here are not your work. I can post anything I wish and I am free to do so as long as I don't break the rules of the board. Are your ideas sacrosanct? Of course not. If you don't think so, well, you are in a world of pain :)

Let me be direct here, well I just have to, since you are throwing a tantrum without actually being provoked, which is btw a pattern an adult will not practice much(anyway, if you think otherwise - quote it or shut it), let me guess: you are this religious zealot, who never managed to amount to anything substantive in your whole life, especially as a writer, yet in your mind you are this brilliant sci-fi writer. Or you are strongly opinionated and passionate. You like your superficial numerology, which apparently inflates meaningfulness of your text to yourself. I bet all your works is choke full of such superficiality. For example does it ring a bell: "they landed on this planet at 2:23AM. They spent one day(not an hour more or less) doing this and that. The next 24/5 hours doing that and precisely after 666 their adventure started on this plant this happened. Without knowing themselves they spent precisely this amount of time, because apparently there is this grand plan they are all following without realizing it themselves. And blah blah blah....". Anything like this? Haahaahh. If I am anywhere close, then I prefer to shut it myself as you are just a poor individual(which somehow correlates with a cliche stereotype of a zealot, mad on his superficial and nonsensical ideas, mad on utterly meaningless things like signs/numbers and numerology, bigging up some sort of idea fix - a nonsense really, in his otherwise meaningless life, doesn't it?) who somehow thinks her opinion is much more important that somebody else's.

Anyways, here you come with your dogmatic and obviously "precious" and therefore only correct interpretation of the events in the movie that you used to write your story. It is all fine and dandy. But here comes this "BioDegradable" and apparently talks "endless" rubbish/crap to no end, displacing and subverting the whole forum and your works. What is more offending ... is his posts run contra to what I, obviously a very important writer, Michelle Johnston, am talking about in my little text here. How dare he! He can't hijack it.

Michelle, dear, get off your high horse. If you don't like some of the ideas I post here - fine, but don't come and post **** full of snide and bile. In fact I would appreciate it if you post objective critique. Also, this is not a "bait and switch" or any other strategy I am employing here, I swear. Just accept that your works and ideas are utter rubbish(which I bet they are) to some anyway and just post something relevant instead. Don't take this so seriously. Also, you mention that I am not alone who is doing all this cruelty to you - you mention "people". Who are they? Did you consider that they can be in fact a same person posting behind his quiet computer? This scheming slimy bastard? Is this a conspiracy against you? Just that, if this a fully blown nut-case scenario I am dealing with, I am telling you hereby expressly : I have only one account here :) I don't have an agenda against you or your works - you are just too trifling and inconsequential for me to have an agenda against. If you think otherwise well...what a despicable little drama queen. "My work". lol. GTFO.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPDec-12-2018 1:22 AM

BigDave, I have to apologize to you and your thread. But will you stop posting endless crap? Especially since it violates my rule book I have here written on a napkin in 2 minutes 23 seconds (cue "223").

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPDec-17-2018 11:05 PM

just recently came across a HARDtalk episode with Martin Rees, a UK astronomer/cosmologist/astrophysicist (with Stephen Sackur, for brits available here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0btjmbp/hardtalk-sir-martin-rees-uk-astronomer-royal ), where he was talking a bit about AI, transhumanity(beyond the organic stuff), space travel and spirituality. Many of the things we are talking about in this very thread.

BTW, you can read his recent book, which is supposedly the tour de force, about the topics depicted in Prometheus and A:C : "On the Future: Prospects for Humanity".

Table of Contents:  

With that context given, the point is this: here is a cosmologist(necessarily an educated, scientific man) giving his views on the topics of P and AC. And the deliberations are remarkably similar with what we are presented by Ridley. This actually shows that Ridley does listen to prevailing scientific theories and consults people in the field before doing his movies.

However, we are quickly reminded that the answers to the questions posed, at this point in time, can only come from imagination. Which is why, if you want a semi-accurate story about how it all might play out, you might want to underspecify things and be deliberately vague with your answers, whatever they might be.

I think this is where a lot of frustration comes from wrt to the movies. Some wanted a rather bold exploration with all the questions substantiated and answered. And why not? We already have the beast, have engineers, space travel, mind reading neuro-link and David the embodiment of AI which is not coming anytime soon despite all the "AI" noise in the mainstream media - why not go all the way then? Why the ambiguity with all those imaginary things already on the screen.

On the other hand we have people who would say, "you might want to pipe down on all those topics, because this is not an A L I E N movie any more". The others are frustrated that this is not a melodramatic love story in space.

And indeed, as promised by the writers, every answer is already given on the screen: the answer(and therefore the questions) is irrelevant. But they made a very picturesque movie(s) about a fantasy. And taking a look at the book by a scientist you can convince yourself, thinking individually, that any answer is indeed irrelevant because it involves using wishful thinking. So, once again, bravo to Ridley and his team. They gave a gripping story, wrapped in a beautiful visual presentation. It is only unfortunate they didn't make a fortune out of it.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1691 XPDec-18-2018 12:10 PM

Michelle J:

“For the record it is completely clear to Damon Lindelof executive producer and writer and Ridley Scott director and Michelle Johnston viewer but not you and you are not alone. No worries.”

I have heard some explanation that it was because Jesus was an Engineer or someone that they sent to us and that we crucified him. I am not sure of this answer is correct but that is what it was about. My preferred answer is because we treat the planet and ourselves bad. To me if they are too vague and think that everyone of even many people will bother to lay the puzzle and come up with the answer then they are wrong because there are many other things in life to do than to spend time at solving a damn puzzle in a movie where the explanation should be more obvious. I am not against smart movies where you got to think. That is fine, but sometimes it gets too vague and that is also not good. I blame it on bad writing and/or execution of it and yes both Lindelof and Scott played their parts in it.

To Lindelof it might be obvious/clear since he is responsible for parts of the script (but so is also Spaight’s) so he knows but I am thinking about the viewers that will try to interpret what he (Lindelof) says and that is the thing that gets muddled since he is vague in his writing. It is vague in the way that it is because it takes time for the viewer to understand the big picture. If it would have been better written and/or executed then this should not have been the case then it would just be to add 1 and 2 and then you have the answer but this is not the case here.
“In a low exposition narrative characters do not say things merely for the sake of it. They mean something, a tent pole audience is very bad at picking up those cues wanting "tell us what your going to tell us, tell us and tell us what you told us." a standard technique employed in presentational learning.”

OK but then they should not be surprised if there is a lot of criticism against their art or what they present. In this way this critique against Prometheus is justified because you can not expect everyone to go back to it 100 times or what ever to try to find out what the movie is trying to say.

What is presentation learning? I tried to search the www for it and did not get a very good answer.

I totally agree with Big Dave that the movies (P and AC) are vague (maybe less so AC) so they are open to interpretation. This is a bit annoying at times and sometimes it also makes for interesting discussions.

BD mentions the crucifixion pose of the Xeno. If why they abandoned us is clear then that imagine would also be clear but they are not.

“The Plot Change to David creates the Xenomorph is a Prime Example. Something that could be changed in response again to Fans not being HAPPY” - BD

A hundred times yes, that was one of the major faults in Alien Covenant.

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1691 XPDec-18-2018 12:20 PM

Big Dave:

I agree that the movies are not clear about things (for example why the Xeno is in a crucifixion pose, or why the Engineers wanted to get rid of mankind) and are a bit vague but that is interesting because that give us things to debate about. If they would be obvious then we would have figured it out after two or three views but they do not because that depends on who is viewing it. This could be both good or bad depending if you like to debate about things or just look at something and think "oh so that is what it is about".

Maybe they were not sure about what kind of things that they wanted to have there or maybe they regretted some things in Prometheus so they changed it on AC. Who was responsible for the Xeno is one of the things.

They should have explained the crucified Xeno a bit. I am not a fan of having it there just to look good. I want it to be a point to it and at the same time not have it to just look cool.

“It was vague, and many elements where never meant to have any deep connection...“

Then do not have it there, otherwise it just gets confusing especially if it is in a movie that is connected to the alien franchise which have always been thinking movies. If it is too vague some people might think that “oh well I give up“ if it is too vague so people might not care in the end like you try to climb a mountain and after four failures you say F it and give up.

"The Interesting Question becomes after this FAILED... WHY had they not come back to Finish the Job?"

Maybe they tried before and failed so they were afraid of another failure? It is just a guess, I do not know. Perhaps their weapons were too unstable?

"We have to look at the Engineers on Planet 4 for that and ASK... did they know about our Creation and intended Destruction? We have to look at the Engineers on Planet 4 for that and ASK... did they know about our Creation and intended Destruction?"

I wonder if the writers thought about that? Some writers might think that  "we show this and that" but their ideas for have it there might just be scratching the surface so to speak. They think about it but not as deeply as they need it to be for the story to work, that is my guess.

"Something that could be changed in response again to Fans not being HAPPY.."

I think that they should change that because the way that it is right now is not good at all. It is even worse than the design of the Newborn.

"… i feel it really could have made a Dramatic Arc for how Dr Shaws Character would behave..... i feel it really could have made a Dramatic Arc for how Dr Shaws Character would behave.."

But then they need to get the character right from the start otherwise less people will care to follow him or her.

"The Answer to WHY we was created has to be the BIGGEST one in regards to Gauge why the Engineers would want to replace us with the Deacon..."

Maybe they wanted servants that they wanted to rule over to make some of their work, like you do machines to perform tasks that you find boring. I do not know why, it is just a guess. Holloway said something like because we could and then David says something similar back, maybe it is just that easy but it could be done better.

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