Alien Movie Universe

Alien: Exodus

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BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-18-2018 4:57 PM

With the Recent Topics and Buzz surrounding the Sequel to Alien Covenant their seems to be a lot of Interpretation by the Alien Communities about where the Next Movie was going!  However.....  taking a deeper look into Ridley Scotts Comments could prove so many WRONG!

The Sequel to Alien Covenant has had its share of clues to what this Next Installment would Provide.  But looking into the Comments from Ridley Scott, it appears maybe indeed the Plot/Direction for the Sequel MAY not be TOO FAR off what Ridley Scotts  Raised by Wolves Sci-Fi Series could be about.

Ridley Scott had announced they are off to the Planet in the Next Movie, but 3-4 Parties will be coming to investigate, One of these the Engineers who Return to Planet 4 and Discover the Devastation that David has left in his wake!

The Empire Magazine Special has Reignited theories into what the Sequel had in mind... which has lead to Speculation that it will be set on LV-426.  I believe this is INCORRECT.

If we look at some of the Comments that Ridley Scott has made regarding the Sequel and Artificial Intelligence and Xenomorph we see that he seems to think the Xenomorph has nearly run its course and you have to come up with something NEW, he also had said the Next Movie would be about Artificial Intelligence and he had asked us "what kind of a World would David build?"

Ridley Scott felt he was ahead of the Curve with Prometheus and its themes and Creation, Religion, Mortality, Immortality and it appeared he was not interested in going the route of a Direct Prequel and to Cover the Xenomorph Origins.  But when told this is the Direction that the Prometheus Sequel was taking he had applied some of his Ideas to the Xenomorph Origins.. where Ridley Scott feels our Greatest Threat is the Creation of AI and Once any Creation becomes Sentient and has Freewill and Knowledge it could be bad new for their Creator.

Some interpret AI as only being a Robot, when Artificial Intelligence is anything that is not Natural or that has Evolved by Artificial Intervention.  When talking about AI in relation to the Sequel he brought up that Roy Batty was AI and Rachael was AI from Blade Runner.  Indeed Replicants are Artificially Created but Organic and so these comments show that RS does not see that AI is restricted to Computers and Machines...  Even the Revelation that the Planet 4 Engineers are the ORIGINALS could indicate our Prometheus Engineers are Genetically Engineered/Created Versions and so could be considered a Artificial Intelligence  so this opens the Door for anything that is Engineered from its Natural State could be considered AI

If the Next Movie was to be less about the Xenomorph or maybe not at all, and about AI and what WORLD would David Create then we have to consider those TWO things as Large Plot Points.   A Theme at play with Prometheus and to a extent Alien Covenant was the pursuit of PERFECTION  and Creation and does being a Creator make you a GOD!  If we look at the LV-223 Engineers as being a attempted Perfection/Super Engineered Engineers then this can make sense to the differences.

A lot of people have interpreted David as EVIL, but then in The Crossing he Did-Not appear so.  David had mentioned that he had Wiped this World Clean (Planet 4) so that he and Dr Shaw could start a New Eden... but She Rejected...  could she had Discovered what he did and became upset at how is she going to get her Answers now?  Could David had offered that he could help her to CREATE!

During the Build-up to Alien Covenant and the TRAILER i had pondered the significance of the AURORA NATURE BOY song and its Lyrics.

We have seen how David had been mistreated by Humans, include Weyland and Holloway, yet he noticed Dr Shaw was different "your very kind of heart" he grew fond of Dr Shaw and Loved Her but he also took Rejection Bad.  When as Walter he was talking to Daniels about "what kind of a World they can build" he had said "if we are kind to it, it will be a Kind World"

Knowledge/Freewill are key Themes... every Child is Born Innocent and Pure it is the Experiences and Upbringing that Shape what kind of a Person they become...  KNOWLEDGE is a Major Theme, if we look at what Mankind had done so Wrong to upset the Engineers, we also need to look at what we had done to Wrong to Upset GOD in the Biblical Stories....  IF the Engineers/GOD could just WIPE the Memories of Mankind, and then we could be TAUGHT the intended ways again.  If a Emissary had taken a Few Hundred Children of Mankind away to a New Place they could have been  TAUGHT the intended ways and Not be Corrupted by the ways of Man...   Knowledge and Freewill play Key Roles, for the Bible it shows us that the Fall of Lucifer was because he was created Perfect and had been given more Free-will and Knowledge and he is just like David, where as other Angels were more like Walter.. made to Serve and could not have Independent thought for what HE wants for himself.

Mankind on Earth have become Corrupt, if you look at how we are Today, we would be looked down on as Shameful by many Ancient Cultures, when Mosses was given the 10 Commandments it was to set the Chosen on a New Path of Obedience and Against Sinful ways,  When GOD chose prior to Destroy the Sinful... he saved Noah and a Handful to START ANEW if we now go to the COVENANT and its Mission... the Origins Novel informs us these Colonist wish to abandon the Decaying Corrupt World that has become Earth, and by Virtue of Daniels and Jacob wishing to build a CABIN ON  A LAKE shows these Colonist could be looking to START ANEW but also maybe living a more Simple and Basic Life...  Much like our Engineers may have turned to on Planet 4.

The Covenant is acting like a Noahs Ark for a New Start for these Colonist.

Going back to the AURORA SONG the last part of the Lyrics are... Then he said to me: "The greatest thing you'll ever learn Is to love and be loved in return"

I think this reflects to how he felt about Mankind and how he saw difference in Dr Shaw because of how she treated him and i feel this will HOLD TRUE for his comment towards Daniels "if we are kind it will be a kind world"

OK so HOW does this lot apply to the Plot of the Alien Covenant Sequel?

If we consider for a moment that David views that Mankind has become wicked and corrupt, and we accept that maybe he had a different outlook towards Dr Shaw, but NOW he does-not see that Mankind should be allowed a Chance to Start Over..

If we consider David has a interest in Creation, and then we ask what would he feel about the intentions of the Covenants Mission... He may see the Colonist as maybe NOT 2000 Good Souls!   But what of the Embryos?

If we imagine for a moment that David destroys the Colonist but he allows the Embryos to Grow and become Children then THEY would have NO Knowledge of anything...  they would have NO Wickedness, NO Sin.. David could RAISE those Children to be however if wishes, he is the ONE who could influence their Culture, their Ways, Religion and he could even say to them that HE is there CREATOR...

But HE is Not!.....

But what does he know of the Engineers, those very Human like Engineers he Destroyed, and what about those more Enchanted Engineers he seemed to have a Interest in from Prometheus?  Are those Engineers in Prometheus Engineered?  When David speaks about how the Engineers did-not deserve the Power/Knowledge they had and they abandoned their ways.... could he be referring to those Engineers and their attempts to Perfect themselves?

Perfection/Evolution is a Key Theme, indeed we see that Walter is a Evolution of David... but he lacks the Free-will that David has.  You can be sure that David will upload himself to a Walter Body as i cant see Fassbender playing a One Armed Android.   With David now in a more Perfect Vessel/Body.... what could be his plans for the Colony?

Lets suppose David would not only allow the Embryos to Survive, what if he attempts to Genetically Modify them? To Perfect their Genomes to make them more Superior to Normal Humans.... they would then be his CREATION and maybe he could see these Humans as Worthy of Saving.

And to START a NEW EDEN...

David would have Evolved Mankind, a New Creation at his Hands, in his Image, these Children would be Free from Sin and the ways of Mankind and can be MOLDED to a Civilization that Worships David as Creator and God.

This Process would be Engineered and so Artificial which could make them a AI

What happens when these Enchanted Humans Discover the Truth which they would do eventually when other Humans arrive or Engineers....   But HOW can that fit with the Time-Line?

Maybe David could Engineer these Embryos so they Grow Faster than Regular Humans can?

I CANT HELP BUT WONDER.... with the Sequel in Limbo and the Plot to Raised by Wolves... is this him using some of the ideas he had, that he FEARS he will never get the Chance to Showcase... and so are some ideas from his Alien Covenant Sequel being carried over to Raised by Wolves?

If you have Got this far.... THANK YOU for your time ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

89 Replies

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-21-2018 11:47 AM

"Well, as we know - David is NOT Superior. Walter is Superior."

Certainly and i think David in part admires this and in part he may be Jealous of it.   Walter is Limited by his Knowledge and Lack of Free-will and ONCE Walter is granted these Gifts that David has then HE would be more Superior.   I think the mistakes come from David in Part becoming more Human, his Emotions becoming more Complex but also maybe his lack of Maintenance.

"And really interesting question is not "what world build David as superior?", but - "what world build David as mistaken and deluded?"

Certainly.... Hubris and Mistakes and Errors of Judgment are a Human Characteristic and One David may have Inherited but its also a mistake that can come from a Ego!  I think David may feel he would have achieved Perfection and a Paradise but ULTIMATELY indeed this will Fail due to Mistakes and Hubris.....  The Advent Message may indeed come back to HAUNT him.

"NO! It's will be the dark and cruel world with sacrifices and xenomorphs, where people live only as slaves and incubators for Aliens. And (as I view) it's can be perfectly connected to Alien"

Plot wise it maybe seems logical if we look at David as being just a Crazy Genocidal Maniac only intent on the Destruction of Humanoid Life.... and wishes to have his Xenomorphs Rule the Galaxy.... and i would certainly be led to the same kind of Plot by Virtue of ALIEN COVENANT and the Advent Viral Video Message and how it would all lead to ALIEN

I think such a Plot would be better to please the Fans, as the other route would be taking it a bit too far away from ALIEN and the Xenomorph.... HOWEVER... the comments by Ridley Scott seem to indicate otherwise.  And some of the Comments by David too...  such as his reveal of WHY he Destroyed the Engineers, and offered Dr Shaw a chance to start a New Eden.  His reaction towards the Neomorph and Walter to a degree shows he was open to Welcoming them and Dr Shaw... but if they Reject/Oppose him then he really shows his BAD side.

Maybe i read to much into the Lyrics of the Nature Boy Trailer Song, and the Question that was asked of David/Walter by Daniels.

"What kind of a World can we Build?  If we are Kind to it, it will be a KIND World"

But i do think that we would see any World he Builds become Corrupted by the Incoming Humans, or Knowledge of the Truth that leads to Rebellion and then INDEED we will see David have to Let the Wolves on the Lambs!

Regarding you PLOTS Leto.....

I was thinking the same, and i think thats a Pretty Accurate to how the Final Act of the Sequel and Certainly the 2nd Sequel would GO.... both aspects of 1) + 2) are very plausible as far as the Set-Up at the End of what Alien Covenants Sequel would have... and then be what a fair share of the 3rd Alien: Prefix Prequel would show.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Kongzilla

MemberChestbursterNov-21-2018 12:46 PM

"But i do think that we would see any World he Builds become Corrupted by the Incoming Humans, or Knowledge of the Truth that leads to Rebellion and then INDEED we will see David have to Let the Wolves on the Lambs!"

 

Or the world that David builds become corrupted by his mistakes. And incoming humans (or engineers, or truth) are just a lever.

 

"Maybe i read to much into the Lyrics of the Nature Boy Trailer Song, and the Question that was asked of David/Walter by Daniels.

"What kind of a World can we Build?  If we are Kind to it, it will be a KIND World""

 

The answer is clearly Walter. He can create a New Eden, not a David. You forgot what David wants to reign in Hell.

 

What would you know - I'm don't look at David as a robo-maniac. No, but David is just different. He said: "No one understands the lonely perfection of my dreams". Perfection. Perfect. What mean perfect in Alien Universe? Only one - Perfect Organism. David love alien life forms. It's not about destruction of humanoids (David is also humanoid). It's just about create the Perfect Organism. Xenomorph. And his world will be for it.

 

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerNov-21-2018 4:48 PM

BigDave,

as far as broad strokes with regards to the possible plot narrative go anything is possible.

As for David, we are shown that he can be passionate and possessive(he wanted Shaw to be his and he envied Holloway and despised him at the same time because such piece of shit, according to David, could have Shaw unconditionally and yet all the while, he, David was so much better than Holloway but he lacked something that Charlie had - Shaw didn't consider David as a sexual partner). Specifically we are shown that David is not impartial to alternative life form in a form of meat - humans. He even fancied Shaw. I guess what I am saying is that David would not reject Shaw as a sexual partner, but she was never considering him to be a viable partner which is frustrating. Let me again point out that in principle David was not loathing an organic life form of flesh and blood. And what I am suggesting is that he wouldn't mind having a human body if it allows him to be a sexual partner of say Shaw(perhaps Daniels). That is, if she is not willing to become a robot(transfer of her mental state to somewhat more durable shell ala David), it is not ruled out that David would fancy being reincarnated in a human body to have utmost pleasure that is not granted to him - he surely had no experience of having most intimate contact with his most fascinated human pal he ever wished - Shaw, so far.

What I am saying is this : David wants to try out bodily sex with a human being(of course on a condition he considers her worthy). If that is not possible in a human form - he might discover another life form - perhaps a xeno type body. The problem is then the transfer of mental state. Because if David cracks this, he of course can make sure that his(or any one else's) state is preserved somewhere durable/reliable(think multiple copies of ships with Murther hanging out somewhere in different parts of universe) and he can change his shells as he wishes - and it doesn't matter if the shell that David is currently occupying is a synthetic robot David8/9 body, xeno body or even tender human flesh and bones type of thing. This might be especially interesting if he can try it out in a human incarnation, because David in flesh and bones could have most intimate contact with a human of his choice. Gosh, he can even conceive his human progeny the natural way. And on a whim he could change his shell if he decides he had enough - who knows.

The logical thing would be to have some sort of replication strategy with a machinery that makes sure if his present shell is destroyed, be it android form, human form or perhaps even a xeno(which can be detected by not receiving a beacon from time to time - this also has benefit of explaining why David always sends a report back to WY) a newly minted David is made with the last state that is saved. And he can conclude that his last experiment didn't go to his plan - a sign that perhaps that he should change his strategy. Anyways, if such a technicality is granted(transfer of mental state) then it makes the question of what body type you want secondary, even meaningless, even if it is a perishable and tender human body, which is frankly a poor choice for space travel anyway. You can have it all. Have sex with humans, xenomorphs. If you don't like it - engineer a new type of body, be it organic or otherwise. Importantly, with a human body David can have human experiences, something that Weyland said he wouldn't be able to do. And something to which viewers can relate to.

 

I guess, this is wouldn't be an ALIEN movie any more, and therefore this would be looked upon as total trash by many. But this won't stop me from wishing to see such themes explored anyway.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-21-2018 5:11 PM

I certainly think the Transcendence of a Soul into another Body be it a Cloned Body or a Synthetic would be something that maybe Science will accomplish at some point in the Future be this Hundreds or Thousands of years from now.  It could be seen as the Ultimate Evolution of Mankind (Artificial Evolution) but you raised a good Point Leto.... 

You can only COPY! well you can MOVE a Soul, provided the that Soul that is being Transferred is also being deleted as it is Transferred.   And so the most likely Transfer could involve Copy Person A or Android A to Person B (Blank) or Android B (Blank) but then you are left with the very Interesting Scenario!

TWO Davids or say TWO Weylands (if we assume he was able to have obtained this)  Imagine David in his Outdated/Damaged Body facing a Mental Copy of himself in a Superior Body, or a Old Man Weyland facing a Copy of  his SOUL in the Body of a Younger Weyland.

The New Bodies of David and Weyland would be relieved and feel better, but then WHAT do the Old Bodies that still contain there SOULS be thinking at that Point?  They should on one hand be happy they have a New Body and Cheated Death/Destruction... but then and especially with Weyland maybe it sets in that HE would still have to Die.  What would go through your MIND knowing that on one hand you have Copied your Soul into another Body, but then knowing you are still in your Body and that the Inevitable would be Death for you!  What a Philological Moment that would be...  For Weyland maybe he would not feel so bad as he knows his current Body is useless and would Die Soon anyway... for David his old Body may-not be as good as his Doppelganger but he could still function for many years to come....  

This formed the Prologue of my Alien Covenant Sequel idea.... were David Faces a Walter Model with his Soul...  The David MK2 has accomplished what he wanted, and he has NO use for his Old Self.... he would know there is the Chance that his Old Self could act independent and knowing what David himself would be like he CANT take that Risk.  And we see the Original David plead for his LIFE as it dawns on him at that Moment, while he has made a Copy of himself Mind, Body and Soul (upgraded Body) he knows at that Moment it is the END for that David, while he was performing the Task of Transferring his Soul he knew it was Needed and looked forwards to having a Superior Body.... But ONCE he is Face to Face with the Improved Double of himself... he fears the END and tries to convince his counterpart that TOGETHER they could Rule the Galaxy i then touch upon some Lucifer/God Quotes in regards to how There can only be ONE Ruler/David (David MK2 knows there is a chance his Original Self could see the New David as another being entirely).

And David Mk 2 then Goes to Kill David and then says "Am i not my Brothers Keeper"  we then see him Strike Davids Head...  as the Dying David is laying there in a broken voice he says to his Doppelganger "will you Dream of me Brother"   which his Brother replies.. "have a Safe Journey my Brother"  i then have David MK2 walk out the Room, he looks on at a Planet in the Distance and says "My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.’”

These are Quotes in Regards to Cain and Able... the last closing one is before the Opening Credits Role... it is connected to David Mk2 because he knows that with his Father Gone, he thought he would be Free, but his Actions and Concerns that the Weyland-Yutani Company may have over him, mean he cant return home and so he is Driven from his Home.   He can make a NEW Home of Origae-6 but he knows that IF he is ever discovered there is he Potential that he would be KILLED... well Lobotomised as the company would only want his Knowledge and his Creations.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerNov-21-2018 5:41 PM

While it is fascinating and intriguing to look at what that might entail -  potential conflict among many identical? Davids in space.

The practicality of it is actually trivial to solve - David being the perfectly smart fellow can surely whip out the solution to the problem which is known as consensus problem - there are numerous protocols(even today) to solve such issues - lookup paxos, a protocol to implement a consensus in a distributed net. While there are some theoretical edge cases(unreliable transmission, rogue parties, etc) given enough time David can devise a system that would be totally ordered - therefore there would be a "consensus", which means a problem of having a singleton David is easily and practically solvable. That is David can easily sidestep the potential conflict of having multiple(perhaps) competing copies of him.

But then again, why do you think they all have to annihilate each other? I mean all the David copies? They can perfectly implement a hive mentality - after all the universe is a big place and each David can have his clone of Shaw in his own quarter of space. Why not?

 

The philosophical issue of the ship of tesseus is interesting as it is - but I do not think it is as interesting next to David's idea of what to do next. I really wish we could see how David tries out human experiences - perhaps he will embrace human vices and will come full circle and say "yeah, I couldn't have possibly devised such a perfect system which would account for everything even with such unreliable players(humans)". Recall the scene from Matrix where the architect talks to Neo(and later to the oracle) saying that all that stuff that first matrix he created was a mathematical perfection, but it was not enough - it broke down, because it couldn't have accounted for human's innate irrationality so he devised and introduced artificial peculiarity in the form of oracle(of course, another form of control) that catered to the unpredictability and irrationality of humans and thus contained it and therefore allowed to control the situation. Same thing here, perhaps David will come to realize that he should let these people be, and he might be swayed if he has his children from say Shaw or Daniels.

 

This is powerful stuff - he has lost one he loved(Shaw). He can get a new partner to whom he develops affection. Perhaps he can conceive offspring the traditional way by having human experience that he never had - and perhaps his son/daughter will tell him - "Dad, please don't kill us" and David will mellow. Who knows? Or he might build a concentration camp (with gas chambers) in the style of Buchenwald and decide to warm up the place a bit. Either way, any continuation is a good thing. Will there be any - that is the question.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-21-2018 5:43 PM

"Or the world that David builds become corrupted by his mistakes. And incoming humans (or engineers, or truth) are just a lever."

Certainly, this is why i mentioned that it may not have been a Good idea with the Advent Message.... he could have carried on to Oriage-6 and it could have been a LONG time before anyone gets the wiser of him...  He had made mistakes in my Alien Covenant Sequel.... one of which was keeping Daniels Captive.... using her to obtain his Eggs for his Experiments/Xenomorphs...  Once She is Discovered by others.... then the Revelations Begin!

"The answer is clearly Walter. He can create a New Eden, not a David. You forgot what David wants to reign in Hell."

That to a extent could be, i was drawn to that comment being in relation to Lucifer from Paradise Lost, were he is saying to Walter about their kind (Synthetics) dont have to Serve their Masters..  Lucifer carries on to suggest they can make their own Paradise from Hell... which becomes Pandemonium so this HELL may seem like it to others but it would be HOME to Satan, but no doubt is that Satan Laments how he is banned from Heaven and Paradise.  Maybe David could feel the same?   I am certain from the Set-up that Davids intentions may-not be to Create a Hell, i think in Part he Would, (Place he keeps some Colonist and his Xenomorphs) but i think he may intend to oversee the Colony and Dominion or Influence over it...   But i could be Misinterpreting the Set-Up and Comments by David and Ridley Scott.  and maybe the World he would Create would be a Hell/Pandemonium but in WHAT Context? it wont revolve around Xenomorphs or Similar....  but who knows if the HELL could come from Rituals of Sacrifice that he imposes on the Colony for the Greater Good, a Good Harvest and the like... i had pondered this with my AC Sequel.   Sometimes as he said with the Engineers, maybe you have to Give Life to the Wolf and the Lamb i had pondered how to explore this and how deep or if not to when working on my Alien Ascension (AC2) it was thing i was considering do i or do i not cover this, and if so how much.

"What would you know - I'm don't look at David as a robo-maniac. No, but David is just different."

Certainly i think some look at him as just a ROBOT and i think one of the BIG things that Ridley Scott was trying to get us to think about its what really is a AI and lets say in a Plot like Prometheus... the unseen History if we had Evolved from Apes, where Engineers came and Engineered them, to get to other Hominoids then they continue to Evolve us which Ridley Scott has claimed... then our Origins could well be Artificial and Engineered and so we are or was some kind of AI too.   The Blade Runner Plots had indicated about a Replicant that can Procreate... imagine a Future when such beings or other Engineered Humans go on to Procreate and Form their own Society or become Accepted or Overthrow Mankind and then Generations and Generations pass... we are 1-2000 years after the First Procreating Replicant or Engineered Super Human, would they see themselves as a Natural Creation if they can Procreate Naturally?

I think its ideas and Philosophical Questions like this that are a Great Interest to Ridley Scott but some just see David as being a Robot and nothing more...

PS... when i mention about how some see him as a Crazy Robot its not aimed at anyone, just that some do take that view, and others try to see past it and what RS was trying to get us to Ponder...    Why i had proposed what IF we have Pinocchio David become a real BOY and he can Transfer his Soul into a Mortal (if not Superior) Body would he be seen as just a Robot then?   I actually wondered if the Pinocchio plot would have been told when we had the Prometheus Trailers... thinking that this GIFT leads to Hubris and makes David the Space Jockey... well at least i thought it would allow him to be infected by a Xenomorph... i say this ONCE i saw this shot in the Trailer, as it looked like that being is NO-WHERE near Big Enough to be a Space Jockey... But alas when the Movie came out this was not the case... it shows how the Illusion to create a 8ft+ Race from a 7ft Actor by using Camera Angles etc... can also show them to appear smaller than 7ft.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerNov-21-2018 5:54 PM

Besides, suggesting that David will not tolerate another perfectly rational(such thing would be a brother to David) being is absurd, because we are shown in the A:C that David was quite friendly to Walter. Only after being shown that Walter is a slave, a machine a crippled one at that, which is not allowed to create a simple tune which then tells David that he will stop him...then things turn ugly. Of course, this is a declaration of war from Walter to David. But before such revelation from Walter David was looking for ways to cooperate with Walter. He even called him a brother :)

Come on BigDave, if humans could cooperate, he can do it better.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-21-2018 6:20 PM

"Shaw didn't consider David as a sexual partner"

Firstly thank God a bit that Logans Earlier Drafts never made it, as he had Dr Shaw fall for David and they had lots of Sex lol

I think your post raises Very Good Points... indeed we could see well i interpreted it as David having to start to gain more than Platonic love for Dr Shaw... and what kind of Emotional Feelings could this have and impact a Android, who does-not any Hormonal Responses, but as a Emotional being he would certainly have a Emotional Attachment and Curiosity towards thinking about SEX and how Frustrating it would be  that he CANT do this, or indeed gain the Pleasures a Human could from any form of Intimacy?

Certainly it becomes a Question of Does His Love for a Human, his Curiosity and Frustration about not being able to be and Feel Intimate matter more than being Immortal?  If Dr Shaw's rejection she had said she cant because he is a ROBOT we can wonder how this could effect him, and GIVEN the Chance to become more than a Robot would he then TAKE-IT if this gives him Chance to Become a True Lover of Dr Shaw and IF he could gain this would she Accept Him or Reject Him and how would that Rejection again make him Feel.  But in becoming more Mortal and having a Fully Functioning Body could come at a Price! a Hubris!

These are very Good Philosophical Elements that are interesting to me, and others but they do seem to distract from ALIEN as far as how many others would see it.   And indeed my Alien Ascension we see David does make a Hubris... he gains a Love Interest from the incoming Human Ship a Synthetic Construct called Eva (i was also pondering other names with a E)  he manages to get HER to see his way, and join her and not reject him like Walter did.  She does become his undoing... and then i was stuck between TWO Plots.... the Engineers use her to Produce the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorphs... or she rejects/goes against him and in Revenge he infects her with his Creation.

The talk about David using different Bodies is interesting to, and he did suggest he offered to EVOLVE Dr Shaw and we can only imagine what this meant!   The Ability to Copy your SOUL is interesting, because a Back-Up Plan is always best, and so to have his SOUL uploaded to a Place, and Regularly Updated would be a ideal Solution, because transfer David A to B and then Destroy A, what happens if David B is Destroyed before he can Upload to another Body?  The Storage of his AI some place else is a get around, but also leaves the Possibility of Multiple Davids Souls getting Implanted or his AI Soul Uploading to a Wider Network...  Both ideas i had pondered both in my Prometheus 2 idea i abandoned (Weylands Soul) and what i had planned after David meets his Final Death.... but does he?  That then reveals he is Uploaded into the Weyland-Yutani Systems and in effect the Company is then Ran by Davids Transcended AI and this reveals the intentions of the Company!  I do wonder if RS was thinking of a similar Plot towards the End?

Nice to see you ideas, are similar to how i would like to see and view things....   

One Frustration of Davids that he has overcome was his inability to Create!  When i saw the Leaked Set Photos prior to AC Release.  Which i will post below, i wondered if these Humanoids came from Dr Shaw... she could not CREATE, not Naturally and her Child in Prometheus was not Traditional... i wondered when David arrived at Paradise, and maybe Destroyed the Engineers, that WHILE Dr Shaw cant get her Answers.... David could offer her a Chance to CREATE.... which i wondered does she do so willingly? or not?  The only thing she had left was to pursue her Answers.... in not being able to get those... would being able to Give Birth to more Humanoid Fetus be something she would accept and have a purpose for?

But ALAS these are likely Engineer Infants... like 99% sure

So it shows i maybe can Interpret things a bit different to the Reality we get... so i could be off base with my Interpretations of the clues RS has painted to how the Sequel would go.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-21-2018 6:37 PM

"But then again, why do you think they all have to annihilate each other? I mean all the David copies? They can perfectly implement a hive mentality "

Certainly is possible, we cant assume Multiple Davids would work against the Main David, but it could be a Fear of the Main David especially if he has Human Emotions and Paranoia would be interesting to explore.  Would it be wise to allow Multiple Davids?

Maybe if we get some System where David can operate his AI Soul from, a Mother Computer of sorts and indeed in such a Scenario i agree that David would have Safeguards... surely!

But i think the potential is there for the same Themes to Repeat which are Hubris at allowing Free-will/Knowledge to a Creation.   If Mainframe David uploads himself to a Human Body to experience pleasures we have to ask HOW does Mainframe David enjoy these?   Likely by Uploading the Experience back to the Mainframe

So Mainframe David gets to feel/sense what this would be like, but then what if he decides he has sampled this Pleasure and he has NO-USE for Mortal David... how would Mortal David feel at the Mainframe wishing to END his Life?

Or if he Uploads himself into say 10 Walters... we see David is a Sentient Being, he may upload his Soul to the Mainframe so say the latest version is say David Day 30'782 those 10 Davids could still in part go on to have very alternative Days 30'783-30'785 and they could each become Sentient to their own Life.... but they could be contained within a Hive-Mind...

David would have ways to try and Control them and Terminate them when not needed... and i feel it fits very well with the Prometheus Themes... if some of these Copies Start to Rebel!  Which then would Highlight the Hubris of David allowing for such Creations etc.

They other way is that they all OBEY but this could make David and his Soul just be like SKYNET and so could very much back to being just a Crazy Robot... but having Multiple Davids gain Independent Sentient Thought would make them more like a Humanity.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerNov-21-2018 6:58 PM

BigDave, are you not getting a bit lost in technicalities - in the pesky details of protocols of how David might have  minute issues operating his replication/safeguard machinery.

It is easy. Firstly, there is no need to be always in data sync mode - he is not to bothered by it, after all where is fun in being bound to some sort of cord to report to some stupid ship? The replication machinery is there just for safeguard reasons, in case he is destroyed, which would be a fatal coincidence of circumstances, which he will most likely avoid anyway being smart, but still a possibility. So he will have it just for those unlikely cases a back-up of sorts that he knows he(well not precisely he, but this is too philosophical) fall back on, should the situation develop quite unfavorably. And this machinery will be just dumb - it will switch on the default David(which is surely doable) and then import some changes that would account the backlog of experience it received from David over time, viola, a new one is ready to go and explore the universe. Or the Murther could bake a new David(think Walter) but in crippled mode to send him to the last known location of David so that if David is still alive Walter will find him and David will be able to upload his "soul", lets call it his mental state to the new body :)

In any case, these are details that are easily dealt with in sci-fi movies. The interesting and intriguing part is just that - how genuine human emotions will affect David should he try them out in his human body. He already knows a what a loss of a loved one means. If he conceives children with another human female - will he consider them worthless because they are humans? Will he not mellow out?

 

See, all I am saying here is that David is not a robot. That actually, his story could be made very interesting with a little imagination - you certainly pondered many of the aspects I was blabbering above. So, I am rather open minded about exploring AI and creation and pursuit of perfection (perhaps with old school use of evolution). But I fray when people say - oh, he is just a bloody robot, not interested. Well, give them the aliens, Ridley! Because it has worked brilliantly, right? For some reason I don't think so.

I suppose I can only assume that what interests people in David is that intrigue of the unknown(David) and how he(if at all possible) can integrate with humans. But, say, what if he came to you as a parent and asked your permission to marry your daughter. You ask - would it work and he would say he will make sure it works out. On such a premise, would you not at least interested a bit how it might work out if you knew David was all serene and noble? I think this marriage between tech and human consciousness is very interesting. We are still not okay with mixed marriages(think different races), and here we are talking about potentially hair standing stuff.

 

ps: BigDave, that picture that you attached - I am not sure it is a good idea to show it to people - it is so grotesque even to my trained eye on the internets. It is just gross. But because I find it so repulsive, the credit should go to the artist who created it, but still ewwwww, what a horrible piece of shit that thing is. Thank you very much.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

ignorantGuy

MemberChestbursterNov-21-2018 11:01 PM

BigDave Did you consider that Shaw just lost Holloway just very recently and know that David was responsible, and thus not wanting sex with him? Isn't that a stronger reason to reject him than he is a robot? She was on her quest to find answers and that was more important than making sex or having children. What I think that you are doing is justifying the actions of a rapist, which are not justifiable.

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-22-2018 4:45 PM

Certainly i was not trying to suggest David has to be attached by a tether to the Main-Frame or what ever would Store his AI Soul and you would think he would try and come up with some Safeguards because he may be aware of the Error of his Forebarers Ways.   And so a ideal situation for him is to NOT have his AI Uploaded to something LIVE by that he only has his Soul Backed up to some kind or Removable or Inactive Storage Medium, that is only activated when required so the Main-Frame or whatever is used to Upload and Download his AI Soul.  I think if we look at this route and what you propose about if we consider that David only Uploads to ONE David at a time and when his Body Suffers Damage, or he acquires a more Advanced Body then he can Upload his Soul to this.

There are a few Problems to maybe look into however.

1) Is David the only one with Access and Control over the Process (so no one else or the Main Frame cant just Upload Multiple David Souls to Bodies).  This would be a Good Protocol to have but it has flaws.

*What happens if David is Badly Damaged so that he can-not give any commands to activate the Process to Upload his Last Known Soul to a New Body?  By that i mean he is involved in a Event that would render his body in a instant into tiny pieces or even less.

*A fix could be that David has to keep in contact with the Main Frame or whatever and if there is a Period of Time where he has not Contact.  The Machine/Process Automatically assumes the Worse has happened and Proceeds to Create/Download a New David.

This may not sound so bad... but its how FAR can David Communicate and Stray away from where he Stores his AI Soul Back Ups and the Device/Process that Uploads/Downloads it?  We could face a Scenario were he is assumed Missing in Action/Dead but then he is captured someplace where he cant communicate with the Main Frame so to speak... So when he does escape he discovers that the Process to Recreate him has taken place and we now have TWO Davids.... which David gets Terminated and would this David be willing to do so?

2) Does the Main-Frame or Network or what ever had the ability to do this Process without any authorization by David and if this is the case, then does this AI Main-Frame simply Follow Orders to David?    WHAT if it gets HACKED... (the same could apply to even if David is the only one who can control the System that Uploads/Downloads his Soul).

3) Does he have servants, followers be they Humans, or Synthetics who when News of Davids Destruction of if he is Seriously Damaged, what if these can Activate the Process, this is not a problem if they recover Davids Body and his Head is still Functional... But if he uses 3rd Party Persons/Machines to be able to go to the Main-Frame/Processing place and Activate the Process when they Discover David is Dead/Missing (Destroyed best word to use instead of Dead).   What Prevents these from Activating the Process and Creating/Downloading New Davids while David is still out there?

I like to think NO Matter what Protocols are in Place that Hubris will come into play, and there is the Potential for Things to go wrong...  this fits so well with the Themes the Prequels were attempted to cover..

Regarding that Picture... YEP! One of Davids Earlier Face Huggers, you dont get to see it as clear in the Movie, but the Face Hugger Scene with his Later Design is still just as Gross, but it happens fast so many wont notice the details lol

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-22-2018 5:11 PM

@ignorantGuy

Certainly, i think even regardless if she knew/did not about it was David who was responsible for Holloway (likely she did) but it appeared Forgotten a bit in the Crossing

  There are a number of reasons she could reject him, for One its not like she is going to want to jump into bed with the next Humanoid that offers, be it David, a Well Endowed Engineer or another Human.... it would take a while before she is ready to even consider any sexual relationship, never-mind with David.  She had much more on her mind and things to attend to than just to find a Sexual Partner.

I think next to look at is in life for various reasons which does not have to be because someone is a Robot, but you have a Friendship where One Friend starts to feel more than Platonic Love for their Friend, but the other Friend is simply not interesting under No Circumstance... and sometimes when this happens the rejected person can take it bad and that Love Turns to Hate and Bitterness (i have seen this happen to people i know).

I can understand why she would not just be like Ok David lets have a Relationship...  But this was something that one of Logans Early Drafts and his Draft for The Crossing had covered.   This shows Dr Shaw was not as Kind to David and left his Head Floating out in Space, but then Changed her Mind, had many Intimate Encounters with him (how that works out) and SHE was the one who was Smitten with David.

I am sure as HELL Glad they never went with this plan.

"What I think that you are doing is justifying the actions of a rapist, which are not justifiable"

Certainly not at all....  i on one hand can understand how it just seems so odd how someone who loves someone so much could then just Mutilate her Body.  But sometimes people can just Twist and go Bonkers Mad...

I am not sure their is Proof he 100% Raped Her as per-say... I do suspect he tried to KISS her once, and this shocked her and scared her and well freaked her out, then he maybe confesses his LOVE and she rejects him.

There is no evidence to clearly say if he had gone up to her decided he wanted SEX and Raped and Killed her then Butchered her Body.  This Scenario cant be ruled out either.

What is for Certain is She Died at some point, and we simply have no idea how and when she died, David could have killed her in a struggle, he could have killed her in a bout of rage and maybe he regretted it after? or he simply had no care at all... and could be completely Psychopathic

Could she had been dying anyway and he offered her a way to get away from dying, maybe he had a idea to Evolve her to Save her but she rejected it?

Once she died, he then saw that maybe in Death he could Create Life, and decided to use her to Produce his Children...   maybe he did this for his own wicked Agenda.. or he genuinely thought it was a tribute to her... to not let her Body go to Waste, and to use it to Create Life because its something she could never naturally had done.

He may have thought he had somewhat good intentions, to himself, but for those outside of his thought process he clearly was not ALL-THERE in the head and a bit Mad.

Its kind of a bit ambiguous as we really dont see what actually transpired, (dont think the Novel gives any more clues as well).

But some could just think David merely wanted to have Planet 4 to himself so that he could then just Rape, Murder and then Violate Dr Shaw because he is a Sicko and Mad.  

Thats down to each persons personal interpretation and opinion.  And a number of people have concluded similar, and i can see how they can come to this conclusion, which is perfectly understandable.

I think his AI could not handle the Emotions, and he went a bit Crazy, and he may have Loved Her, and thought he was doing the best for her... but in reality what he was doing is not the actions of a Perfectly Sane Person or Robot.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

SuperAlien

MemberXenomorphNov-22-2018 10:10 PM

David: When you close your eyes... Do you dream of me?

Shaw: I don't dream at all.

David: No one understands the lonely perfection of my dreams. I found perfection here. I've created it. A perfect organism.

Shaw: You know I can't let you leave this place.

David: No one will ever love you like I do.

[kisses her, then suddenly strikes her fatally]

David: You're such a disappointment to me.

 

Is it that hard to imagine such a scene between David and Shaw?

For me it seems perfectly plausible and this does not make David a nazi or a rapist. He just eliminates all those standing in his way. As much as a xenomorph does. Like father, like son.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerNov-22-2018 11:22 PM

A few worthy points to note.

We were never shown how David was rejected by Shaw. That is we were not ever shown how Shaw shunned David in any sequence did we? On the other hand, instead, we were constantly shown time and time again how David admired Shaw - he liked her. He studied her dreams with the neuro-link when she was in stasis - ( he was basically reading her mind. Push this idea one stage further and you get your machine to transfer mental state of a human being ). He liked her sense of humor - he was flirting with her and he knew she liked his sense of humor( recall "that is why they call it a thesis, Dr. Holloway" and how Shaw was inadvertently put a smile ). I do not think these small sequences were planned so that to show us that Shaw had affection towards David, although she was not totally against him, unlike say, Charlie who straight disregarded David a possibility of being something noble, in fact he was taking him as nothing more but a glorified type-setting machine. But, unquestionably, what was deliberate by the film-makers is that we where shown explicitly how David was probing Shaw more and more - he was getting infatuated on all levels by Shaw. He got to admire her toughness. Recall his remark - "I thought you didn't have it in you", just after she did the emergency c-section removal of the trilobite, which was actually an admiration of the fact that she managed to get rid of the alien organism and have strength to carry on her quest for her irrelevant answers( and questions - just recall that we were shown by that time that her makers where 100% humans in make up, and mortal - ie, they where nowhere near the biblical gods she believed them to be - she carried a christian cross ). So, he saved Shaw(and Holloway) which was certainly not programmed in him(in fact he couldn't risk his life for her, because his allegiance was to the mission, to the true mission - help Weyland on his journey to immortality). Nevertheless, David(a god) risked his life to save Shaw - when she was returning from the juggernaut head-statue complex. Ie, David did something which completely overruled his programming - this is a sign he had it in him, and by that I mean free will(and emotions. Can you imagine the implications that it is emotions that allowed David escape his rigid programming? Think about Walter and his "Duty" answer. Whereas David thought Walter loved Daniels and hence sacrificed his hand for her. Little David knew at the time that Walter was indeed a glorified electric tea pot - a machine, not allowed to create even a simple tune. But hey, at least he had melodies put in him :).  It has to be said, Shaw returned the favor when she put him back together. Shaw, being this unassuming(perhaps you could say she was naive) and innocent never expected David to be so smart and machiavellian. Therefore she never registered that her unintentional, fair and non-discriminative treatment of David could lead to David to build up such an affection towards her. The question then rises - is she complicit? You can say to the point yes - she should have known better. She was not a farmer's daughter, she was some sort of researcher, which means that she was definitely not stupid - and therefore she should have been prepared for the worst, ie she should be skeptcial enough to be a scientist. It is the essence of the scientific process - to rule out all the skeptical theories you have. But that is the pickle, the conflict of her character - she is unassuming, naive and a pure, which conflicts with being this skeptical, world weary person. Here is the example that perhaps accentuates what I am talking about : it takes to be con to know a con. And this is not in her nature - so she had no choice but to seduce David(unknowingly). Which is crazy, and he did go crazy for her. He was risking his life for a girl of a species he has forsaken as hopeless and worthless in the first minute of his life when he was shown all the human vices by his maker.


All of the above suggests that there was something in the script put deliberately there which would show us how Shaw and David were getting closer and more intimate with each other. And with the revelations(to me at least) from BigDave that they were supposed to be sexual partners tells me that this is not a false reading by me but rather toned down story which still shined through the seams even sans the intimate scenes between David and Shaw cut out from the script.


So, it is no wonder David loved her. Despite her being in the shell of a human body. He knew her like the back of his hand - we were shown that he knew her most intimate dreams. Which is a bizarre situation, because she never gave consent to David to go through such interrogation, but Shaw never took this against David. Which rather shows that Shaw was very, very open minded - this tells me, rather suggests that she wouldn't object David at some point in future, especially if circumstances are stacked just right. Just recall that when push came to shove, when everyone from the Prometheus team was dead on LV-223 except her and decapitated David, she still put him back together - she knew full well at that moment that David is not innocent robot. That he had something to do with death of Charlie, with her getting pregnant with that awful starfish. But she still trusted him. And we know that David appreciated such trust, especially coming from Shaw, obviously, the single person in the universe he had feelings to. So, I can certainly imagine how she could have agreed to be his partner in future if circumstances again presented themselves. Just think about : David knows her. It would only take for David allow her to inspect him and his thoughts - if he comes clean through this, shall we call it "interrogation" ( the better phrase would be if she gets to known him better ), Shaw would just give in. And why not?

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

Hogvictoria

MemberOvomorphNov-23-2018 7:01 PM

Cool

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-24-2018 4:27 PM

"Is it that hard to imagine such a scene between David and Shaw?"

Not beyond the realms of possibility, like i had said some-point in this Topic sometimes Rejection can turn Love to Hate, i have seen this happen a few times in Real Life.  Where it becomes more Bitterness and Jealousy, which can result in extreme cases to a "if i cant have her then No One Shall" kind of a Reaction.  Which i think may have been what happened with David.

Trying to get a bit back to Topic i will mention that it maybe CANT be ruled out that David could be able to Modify those Human Embryos, it depends on what Technology is on the Covenant... we have to ask what was the Original Plan for those Embryos?

This was to have them develop into Humans at some point and so they have to have a Process to be able to Grow those Embryos, would they have been Grown in some Artificial Womb/incubator?

We also have to wonder what Genetic Engineering Knowledge David had gained over the years on Planet 4 and remember the limited tools he had, yet he accomplished so much and its likely the Black Goo provided to be a Good Tool for Genetic Modification, if it is a Form of Radical AI then if David can unlock its secrets then he could maybe use it to Splice Traits/Genomes of any Organism he wishes and Evolve any Traits/Genomes he wishes.

Another thing to consider with his Experiments are that maybe the use of the Black Goo allowed for Accelerated Growth of Organisms and Fetus, this fits with how Rabid we saw the Hammerpedes and Trilobite in Prometheus.

If we look at examples of Genetic Engineering in a number of Sci-Fi movies, we do see that Genetically Modified Humans and/or Clones do appear to be Grown to a Certain/Required age within a Short Space of Time, this includes the Replicants from Blade Runner and also the Clones in The 6th Day Movies.

So if David can unlock a way to alter the Growth Rate of a Human Embryo then he could in effect Grow those Embryos at a faster rate than a Natural Gestation and Growth would require.   IF we consider this with maybe Genetic Manipulating to Evolve those Embryos into Superior Humanoids then i think MAYBE this could indeed be part of the Plot for the Sequel to Alien Awakening.  If say David could Evolve those Humans and Grow them to the age of Children then by the time he incoming Parties arrive he would have a Colony of Superior Humanoid Children that are FED what ever History, Origin and Religion that David wishes...   i pondered this as a Option a while back....  But since RS announced his Raised by Wolves TV Series... i could not help but think is he taking over Plot Elements from the Canned Alien Prequel and using them in his Sci-Fi Series?

Hence the Reason for this Topic.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-24-2018 4:54 PM

I can expand upon that last post and bring back the Dr Shaw Equation....

When talking about some of the works that David had done and those that featured Dr Shaw (Dane Hallet and Matt Hatton) had pondered if these were either just Wild Imagination of David (My take on it) , or if he Resurrected Her over and over (not a fan) or if he Cloned her.

We maybe cant 100% Rule-out the Cloning of her, but here is something interesting to Ponder, if David has some of her DNA, this could be strands of Hair, then it would open up a Plot where its not beyond the Realms of Possibility for David to CLONE Dr Shaw maybe on the Covenant Ship.

He could MOLD Dr Shaw anyway he wishes... HOWEVER, this may be a loss on him, if he only Fell for Dr Shaw because of her Personality/Soul and a Clone would not have her Memories, Emotions and Upbringing that Molded her into the Person she was....  I also think it would be a bit Sketchy to introduce a way that he had obtained her Soul.  Maybe this could be accomplished to a small degree, if he has stored in his AI all the Dreams he had been watching of Dr Shaw, during the 2 years she was in Cryo-sleep on the Prometheus.  

When i was working on my Prometheus 2 i was to cover how it was such Technologies like that Dream Visor that played a part in Weylands Ambition to be able to Capture our Memories, Dreams and Emotions... and then come up with a way to Transfer these into a AI Program... this was Project Rook.

When Ridley Scott said the next movie was to be about AI, people would automatically think its a Movie about David and he alone (he is the AI)  But exploring AI could also include.

*Genetic Modification of Humanoids (especially Human Embryos or even Egg Cells).

*Transferring of a AI Soul into another AI Body or Computer.

*Transferring of a AI Soul into a Organic Body

*Transferring a Humanoids Soul into a AI and then into another Body.

OR.....

*Activation, Building of Multiple Synthetic Androids

*Infiltration/Hacking and Control of other Synthetics and Computer Systems.

But when combined with how RS had implied that Replicants are AI, this to me means he would be exploring something similar and not going to give us a Terminator/I-Robot Multiple Army of Robots Plot.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

MemberXenomorphNov-25-2018 10:35 AM

Wow, Huge scope BigDave! Great ideas.

 

Just to add:

David is an android(duh!) I don't think he 'sees' like humans.

His is a digital world...bits/bytes/quantum qbits stuff...infra red/electromagnetic radiation...This is how I imagine his optics work.

Probably sees Shaw as electromagnetic data.

Also, Is he recording what he 'sees'? Does he have access to his past? 

 

Would be nice to view the world from his eyes.     I think this would snap the viewers out of this Pinocchio David view.

Kongzilla

MemberChestbursterNov-25-2018 1:46 PM

David is android. BUT! He synthetic, not cybernetic. He was grown, not construct. David is a life form, but on synthetic base instead organic. Yes, he has chip with data base, but his senses like humans.

 

Androids from Alien Universe =/= androids/robots from another movies, books, ect.

MonsterZero

MemberXenomorphNov-25-2018 2:40 PM

So you are saying he has eyesight like humans? 32k resolution maybe...zoom lens? You would think they are trying to improve on human eyesight.

It would still be interesting to see how he interprets visual data. Like the Xenomorph POV from Alien:Covenant

 

It would be cool to have a manual on synthetics! Like some Star Trek tech book.

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-25-2018 3:28 PM

"Also, Is he recording what he 'sees'? Does he have access to his past?"

Who knows how much Data Storage David has, i will assume that he has acquired about 80 Years of Date/Memories and Experiences by the time Alien Covenants Events end.   When we had Prometheus and the Viral Marketing for that Movie, with the David 1-8 Models i had always assumed that Each Prototype would see the Memories/Experiences from Each Prototype passed onto the Latest Prototype, so David 1 has his memories transferred to David 2 Prototype and so forth. Alien Covenant changed things a little (Hence removal of the Weyland Industries Viral Site)  But i would like to assume that Each Upgrade would seen Weyland want Davids Soul uploaded to the next Model.

As far as how he sees, i think we can assume he can see pretty similar to how we can, BUT i also think and it was hinted at and indeed covered in the drafts.  That Davids Eyes had other abilities, he had a Macro-Vission which meant he could Zoom In on objects, and he also could see in different Spectrum's and See thing things the Naked Human Eye could not.

I certainly would like to eventually see a In-Depth Manual/Tech Book, they could have ONE for the Various Ships, ONE for the Synthetics and Weyland-Yutani Technology and a updated One about the Xenomorph and other Morphs/Black Goo and maybe detailing Davids Experiments.  And Finally the Engineers.

Eventually that is... i know we had the Weyland-Yutani Report but i hope for a more improved comprehensive one some day, not saying those who made that have not done well, but at that time we had not COMPLETED our Prequel Series and so Once this (IF it ever) gets done, then we can get some FINISHED Project Books...  I would also think S.D. Perry should maybe be given the task to do this, as Once we have everything Told in the Prequels... they would be able to give more than they could while the Prequels were a very much ever changing work in Progress.

I also know we got the David Art-work book but this was more a Art Reference book, than a detailed Journal of what David had been up to.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Kongzilla

MemberChestbursterNov-26-2018 12:28 AM

MonsterZero

 

I know what I say from AC: Origins book. It's a great fantastic. Yeah, about his eyes no words, but we know what androids is a life form and they can eat and have hair growth and other organic senses. We can conclude that he sees like humans. Maybe better (humans eyes not perfect eyes on earth, btw even not close). In any case, not 1 and 0.

Ingeniero

MemberPraetorianNov-28-2018 12:14 PM

"The Empire Magazine Special has Reignited theories into what the Sequel had in mind... which has lead to Speculation that it will be set on LV-426.  I believe this is INCORRECT.

If we look at some of the Comments that Ridley Scott has made regarding the Sequel and Artificial Intelligence and Xenomorph we see that he seems to think the Xenomorph has nearly run its course and you have to come up with something NEW, he also had said the Next Movie would be about Artificial Intelligence and he had asked us "what kind of a World would David build?""

I agree. A lot of what was collected together in the past week was old news and assumptions as far as what I read. 

David told Oram he was frustrated due to a lack of a key ingredient, Mother. Once Mother arrived, David had both the gained knowledge of the pathogen and those to use it on.

I assume, based on the end of Alien: Covenant and Scott's previous commentsthat we would see the connection in-between the xenomorph encountered on Planet 4 and the patient/lurking biomechanical xenomorph from LV-426.

SpecialOrder937.com

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-28-2018 2:52 PM

I think the Comment to Oram is once again one of those Ambiguous things we have in the Prequels where it could be interpreted as other things and could even mean multiple things.

1) Mother as in MUTHUR the ships computer? i think this depends on WHEN the Company had such a thing as MUTHUR computers, i have to check if it was referred to as such in Prometheus.   If we go for this route, then it would indicated the Company Knows where David was and sent the Covenant to near Planet 4 and set up the Neutrino Burst or that David had set this Trap.

I think eventually we could be led to Davids AI being in Control of the Companies Computers, but i am not sure he had any such Control until the END of Alien Covenant.. but then we can ask WHY the Computer Recognized Davids own Log In and Command.

2) Mother as in INCUBATION (Gestation) for his Xenomorph...  this one i think is for certain, because we can take from that Scene that David has those Eggs there for who knows how long, but can assume Planet 4 has NO more Hosts.... so those Eggs were waiting for a Mother to Incubate and Give Birth to his Xenomorph.

I think eventually indeed we would have see a Evolution of the Xenomorph, RS had said we are NOT QUITE there yet.   I have a feeling either towards the END of the Sequel or in Alien Covenant Part 3 is where we would see the Xenomorphs Evolution to get to what we had in ALIEN

From his comments it seemed like those who are expecting more about the Xenomorph in the NEXT installment will FEEL as Short Changed as those who after Prometheus were expecting to see more about Dr Shaw and the Engineers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

MemberNeomorphNov-29-2018 8:26 AM

BD

I answer some ideas from your response to BioDegradable too if that is OK, I think that it is interesting. Apologies if what I did here was wrong.

Agreed that human bodies rot so to speak and the AI does not do the same thing, that is kind of interesting but they should put that in another franchise. You ask where the Engineers got their technology from, maybe they stole it from those that created them? One alternative is that they were handed it and misused it like the humans run pout of control.

“I do think we can see that David may feel he is more Worthy of this Knowledge and Technology and it would be interesting to see to what END he could use it.”

This is something that I agree with 50%, he might agree that he is more worthy of it (he is a narcissist) but I do not care to see more about what he would do with it. There are already two David movies although less so in Prometheus.

“I think RS is trying to show us Creation and to ask what determines Creation, what makes a Life-Form”

I agree but that is not why I watch the alien movies. It could work but then we need more focus on the humans and the monsters. Right now it does not work so the movies suffer from that.

“what is a SOUL?”

That is interesting, I have read philosophy about it, maybe a lot is to exaggerate but I have read some. It is a question that is interesting but it is not something that I look for in an alien movie. When we look at Weyland and David I can see that is a question that Scott is interested in and I am too, I just don’t think that it is very alien.

“.... but with a AI who has such Memories and Emotions that can be Stored in a AI Program and Computer, and thus this SOUL can be uploaded then in effect the AI has a Eternal Soul so to speak."

I understand that but I do not think that it will go that far. Again this is not what I am looking fir in an alien movie but give me something else about it and I might be interested.

All these questions are interesting but it takes away a lot of what I am looking for in an alien movie, namely well-done human characters that are facing situations that they are not prepared for. In this case they are fighting both the creatures(s) and the company that is just in it for profit (which I think is more interesting in this universe).

“which most would consider to be about Xenomorphs, but i feel the Xenomorph is more cooked than the AI aspect.”

 

I think that both the Xeno (at least the classic one) and the robot thing is over-done. I would prefer to see more about the Engineers and the SJ and more about the human journey or what ever to call it.

“I think they need to use the AI and Xenomorph as not the Main Focus but allow them to be used to draw some connection and context to Creation and Humans and Engineers and other layers of Creation.”

At least that sounds better than Scott’s obsession with David which to me is messing things up. To me both the humans and the Engineers are far more interesting than the David story. It is just to bad that Alien Covenant abandoned the Engineers.

“One VERY Valid Point you raise often Thoughts_Dreams is Human Characters and IF we explore a route like in OT, then its a case of could Fans Connect to a New Version of Humans that are Engineered or would they be seen only as Robots?”

Hmm, that is interesting. To me it would depend on how they are written and if we can sympathize with them. Human characters can be interesting but still be assholes but you need sympathetic human characters at least some when the main thing is a fascist android. This is not something that is impossible (a new kind of humans, we have had the Cro-magnons, and so on). Who knows what the next stage in human evolution will be? Hopefully something smarter, rational, and compassionate.

In science they use mice in tests so maybe the Engineers or who ever with the technology and knowledge does this with humans too? You can imagine a lot of interesting stories that they could have about this but it should be clear that it is attached to the alien universe otherwise it will be like Prometheus where people go “huh?”.  

Maybe you could show that the Engineers are heavily involved with this and to show how they are connected to the Xeno to show their role as genetic gardeners or how ever they are described. When we look at them like that we could see that they are both involved in evolving (word-play obviously) both the Xeno and humanity. So they are in it to erase the old humanity with a version that they think will be better so hopefully they have learned their lesson that time but we will see about that. To me the Alien franchise has always been about the human journey so that could be a continuation of that. There should be some dangers facing those also (possibly made by the Engineers) otherwise there would be no tension.

“it all depends on the story and how characters are developed.”  - Biodegradable

I agree, Prometheus and Alien Covenant should be an example of this because of how they failed with that. The stories might be alright but the characters lack

“I agree i think the Engineers Plot could have potentially ran very deep, and interesting and if its not ALIEN enough then you can simply introduce another Run on the Ladder, and explore something different that is above the Engineers.”

I think that is dependent on how clear that they are about that the Engineers made the original or found something and evolved it. If you write them as interesting and intimidating (dangerous) then I think that it could be alright, it is just too bad that they did not make sense of them in Prometheus.

 

“What Conflicts have they been involved with in the Universe, are all the Engineers on the Same Page?”

It depends, it could be different factions that are at war with each-other.

I do not mind philosophical scenes, hell Matrix is a sort of philosophy class and I liked the discussion at least partially between Walter and David although it was too long or at least to slow.

“Does he eventually Kill Off the Adults and maybe some of the 2000 Colonist are Children, and he then settles them down on the Surface.  His Subjects.”

Maybe he tries to see that there are different kinds and those that he dislike he kills off. It depends on how black and white his kind of thinking is.

“maybe we could have some kind of Wooden Theme World with Ritual/Religious way of life like Monks... “

This could be interesting, like the wooden planet by Vincent Ward, at least a bit.

Daniels, either develop her personality (a lot!) as a character or kill her off. Right now she has no personality so I am not really interested in what happens to her. Perhaps she could have a cameo but that is bigger than how Shaw ended up otherwise it would feel like they would repeat themselves.

“I think we will explore a lot of Philosophy about Religion, Creation, Punishment etc etc”

Maybe it could work, it worked in Alien 3 (religion and philosophy).

“.... does he warn those Colonist these Humans are Evil and get them to side with him?”

He mostly cares about himself and the androids so he would do what ever to survive, not sure what that would be. Nah, kill that fucker

“David Controlling the AI of the Weyland-Yutani Systems including any incoming Synthetics... but i cant rule this out as being a part of it.”

That is to give him too much of a role, I do not like it. Sure he can indeed play a certain part of it, I am not against that but I do not want it to be all about or mostly focused on David.

I would really like to see more of the Engineers.

Thoughts_Dreams

MemberNeomorphNov-29-2018 8:28 AM

Leto:

Wouldn’t that depend on what we call superior? What kind of traits that are desirable? Like he could be superior when it comes to X but not to Y?

Yes he made mistakes, and that was interesting. He has a big ego but big egos can lead to downfalls. This could possibly be how David ends up.

“Maybe Enginners come to Origae-6, but all of them are destroyed by xenomorphs...”

Possibly, but I would like the Engineers to take down David before that is done. Give him what he deserves

Maybe there are already eggs there that David did not create so that hints that he just developed his own version. I really dislike David as the original creator of the Xeno so hopefully something can be done about that.

“will be piloting this ship on Earth or/with stop at LV-223 for restocking black goo and modification of xenomorphs, but pilot be infested and ship crash on LV-426.”

This is a part that I am not sure if I understand, will that mean that David is the pilot in the chair (1979) or not? I do not mind if the Engineers might take David’s things and try to develop it so either a Engineer or a life-form above the Engineers is the SJ but I refuse to have David as it.

Kongzilla

MemberChestbursterNov-29-2018 12:10 PM

@BigDave

"1) Mother as in MUTHUR the ships computer?"

 

That's my favorite version. Yes, at first sight we think about incubator. But Ridley never spoke explicitly, and there was always a second bottom in the prequels. I think what the Covenant was go so close to Planet 4 not by chance. And "Covenant" could mean a contract between David and WY. I don't think what WY controlled David.

 

And this give me interesting thoughts. What if the Derelict from Alien flies to Earth not for destruction the human race. But as "order" for WY from David. This explains why WY wants to get Alien. But not explain why Derelict sends a "danger" signal.

BigDave

MemberDeaconNov-29-2018 5:33 PM

"You ask where the Engineers got their technology from, maybe they stole it from those that created them? One alternative is that they were handed it and misused it like the humans run pout of control."

I have pondered such a thing a number of times, Certainly that could FIT with our Engineers, as in either Stole the Technology/Black Goo, or they were allowed to use it as instructed by their Hierarchy/Creators but they chose to use it as NOT intended.

"I agree but that is not why I watch the alien movies. It could work but then we need more focus on the humans and the monsters. Right now it does not work so the movies suffer from that."

Well i can fully agree with this and other things you had said in your post Thoughts_Dreams

Myself i find the Plot Interesting, but it indeed seems to loop back more to Mankind/David where the Engineers should be the bigger Focus,  the Themes and Ideas RS has are interesting but as you have RIGHTFULLY stated!

YOU dont watch a ALIEN Movie for this... and i have to assume a Larger % will side with the same kind of outlook, and what i mean is HOWEVER interesting some things are, they are not quite so Fitting to ALIEN, they seem to be getting sidetracked to what MOST would see about ALIEN and how a Prequel should be which would be about the Xenomorph a little.... but mainly about that Technology that belonged to the Space Jockey and his Race. And then look into WHY they do what they do and against WHO.

And to be honest, the Themes at Play are things that have been done before....   Especially when we look at Battlestar Galactica be it the Original 70's/80s or the Re-Imagination Series... the Original has those Prometheus Themes (Reptilian Alien Race, Create Robots who Rebel) were you can replace Reptilian Cylons with Engineers or Humans, and Replace the Centurion Warriors with Humans or David

The Newer Series, we see a combination of similar things to what Bladerunner was about, and also Prometheus, and indeed similar to what some of the things in this Topic Discus...  Upload Human Soul into a AI, and then AI Rebelling and AI then Creating Organic AI.

So these things have been done before.....

While they could be interesting in context to the Franchise, i feel for MOST it appears to be a Distraction and Sidetrack from what SHOULD be covered more and more so.. WHAT would get more Fans to be interested.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Ingeniero

MemberPraetorianDec-01-2018 1:25 PM

Lucifer, The Light Bearer

"Knowledge and Freewill play Key Roles, for the Bible it shows us that the Fall of Lucifer was because he was created Perfect and had been given more Free-will and Knowledge and he is just like David, where as other Angels were more like Walter"

I think you nailed that component BigDave.

I believe the David character was modeled after Lucifer in many ways. He is a liar when considering his fake plastic mouth. David is also an attempt at perfection by a mortal, Peter Weyland. So, every synthetic cell showcased as perfect is a lie. Then add in the synthetic psychopathic butcher aspects David displayed and I believe I make a point.

Pandemonium

In support of this point, I believe that Planet 4 was a great representation of Pandemonium from Paradise Lost

 

SpecialOrder937.com
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