What we know about Engineers so far24,448 Views86 RepliesAdd A Reply
Infos gathered from the commentary, many interviews.
-LV-223 was a military outpost. Confirmed by Ridley Scott on the commentary of AC.
-Engineers are not gods, just superior beings. Confirmed by RS on the commentary of AC and many interviews.
-Engineers (in the context of those from Planet 4) have a lifespan of around 150 years. Explained on the commentary of AC by RS.
-The giant stone heads inside the citadel represent 6-7 elders of the entire civilization; Intellects, artists, wise men. Confirmed by RS on the commentary of AC.
-The artbook also described the giant stone heads as a way Engineers celebrate themselves. Like a depiction of false gods watching over everything.
-Beings on Planet 4 are Engineers. This was confirmed by the filmmakers in the interviews, commentary of the film, artbook, and the people who played them.
-There are female Engineers. Females are seen in the flashback and in some of David's illustrations. Also, people who got to play these Engineers said
there were females on the set.
"Now this is a good question! We worked with a second unit that day and the second unit director wasn’t giving much away to what we really were but they did confirm we
are Engineers! And the costume designer called us all “her Engineers” so we do know we are 100% Engineers but I do believe our origins is something
M.r Scott is holding close to his chest… what I will say there was speculation that the Prometheus Engineers where more like a military type rather than our more
civilian look I think all will be revealed if Sir Ridley gets his way and films the next one."- Billy Mansell on AVP Galaxy interview.
-The Engineer's role is evolution. Explained on the commentary of AC by RS.
-Ridley Scott also said that he sees Engineers as gardeners of space.
-During a podcast with empire magazine, Scott explained that the Engineers visit planets they seeded with life to check on them, and to update them. If their creations proved
to be a disappointment, the Engineers would wipe out the whole planet and start all over again.
"If the planet went wrong, they would want to wipe it clean. But that could take 500 years. When they revisit –
because different visitors would come back and see we’re not doing so well – they would look at these human beings that are jerks,
that are killing the planet, killing themselves, can’t settle down, they’re like a bunch of children. We should wipe it clean."
-Ridley also mentioned on the commentary of AC that the Engineers let their children, human beings, get out of control. So humans are both no longer valid
-Despite being more powerful than humans, Engineers were defeated by their own invention. Explained on the commentary of AC by RS.
-Engineers send their ships on different intervals. When Shaw and David's juggernaut arrived, there was a welcoming ceremony occuring as 2 million Engineers
gathered at the plaza, welcoming the juggernaut's arrival. When David unleashed the ampules, they were shocked by the act. Explained by RS in the commentary of AC.
-Scott James, the guy who played the Engineer in AC, in AVP Galaxy interview also indicated that Engineers send their ships on various missions.
"The Engineers send the crescent-ships out on a various mission and they return infrequently. It’s a very big event and those at home make the effort to show their respect and welcome the ships and their honored crew home. This seems consistent with the ritualistic and important ceremony afforded to the sacrificial Engineer in Prometheus. No-one was expecting David’s ship back, but they’re obviously a trusting race…a bit too trusting maybe! They realize something’s wrong when the cylinders drop but don’t know what’s happening then yeah…it becomes pretty apparent after it’s too late."
-Ridley Scott and Damon Lindelof mentioned this many times before, but they speculated that The Engineers didn't originally create the black goo.
It is all nice and dandy, but what is your point?
Imo, engineers story has run its course - they are/were plot convenience only. The main story is all about the fact that someone got the jin out of the bottle the moment he created an AI, that is emotional and granted it unconditional freedom after his death. Everything else is a consequence of this event. How it all ends? Invariably, with "the march towards inevitable" - the "fossilized" guy in the first movie. But surely, there would be some twists along the way, should a sequel see the daylight.
Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?
The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...
"Imo, engineers story has run its course - they are/were plot convenience only."
I would say Originally they intended to cover our Engineers in more Depth, but maybe not devote a whole new series to them as their is a common Theme of Creation, Sub-Creation and this Creation being allowed too much Knowledge and Free-will and Rebelling against their intended Purpose, and then Sub-Creating themselves and REPEAT! These themes and reasons for those actions could be continued with how Mankind Reacted, and then how our Creation AI/David Reacts and so IF we have RS wishing to explore such Themes, then they dont need to go and cover Engineers in Depth to tell such a Tale of Creation and the Hubris of this Creation becoming Sentient, because this can be told via Davids Story and Arc.
So i can agree that maybe NOW our Engineers will only be Plot Devices, in which they need some to Return to Provide the Derelict and its Pilot.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Indeed thats a nice Summary, some of it is a little contradicting.... but thats just my opinion... (MILITARY ASPECT)
I still think maybe we need to consider the WHOLE Plot about these Engineers, and its (well was intended) not so show we have these Engineers who Create LV-223 to Create Bio-Weapons and thats it! Its indicated our Engineers are VERY Ancient, and maybe LV-223 is 35'000 years old (at least) so if these guys had used this as a Weapons Facility then it would have been maybe for at least 35'000 years or maybe NOT?
The more common thing that RS mentioned in context to our Engineers BEFORE we got Alien Covenant and its Plot.. was these Engineers are Ancient Gardeners of Space! And RS had appeared to hint to us the Sacrificial Scene was a Benevolent Act that allowed Creation and these Engineers invested a lot of time visiting Earth and Evolving us both Genetically and Technologically
For what reason... we NEVER know.... Ridley Scott also leaves some Elements tied to Paradise Lost and there is some point when our species have Upset the Engineers, we have turned out/started to behave in ways they had not intended and after attempts to try and put us back on track, they decided that we had to be WIPED OUT!
However another element to consider is at the time of Prometheus and years following (prior to AC Plot) we have RS also referring to our Engineers as FALLEN ANGELS he also calls them Aggressive %£$^$%&$%
But we can get the Notion that maybe these Guys were not always this way, well maybe as far as the Original Intention, and indeed the Deleted Scenes in Prometheus show us their kind in a DIFFERENT Light. Those Elders did not seem like Aggressive SOB's and Fallen Angels. The Last Engineer appeared to have some Intrigue and Interest in Mankind especially the Female Elisabeth Shaw, and a interest in our Evolution Technology, and via Arts as he appeared Fascinated by the Violin Girl and Books in Vickers Lifeboat.
You get the Impression these Engineers had came to us and Taught us things, and had set a certain set of rules and way of living for us.... we had eventually become rebellious and doing things that went against their intentions for us... and it looks like the LAST ENGINEER had looked on at us with Surprise at how FAR we had come and what we had achieved ONCE they abandoned us. Maybe it was No Coincidence his Cryo-Chamber was labeled HERO-CHAMBER a Hero to who though?
His own Kind? or was it his Actions (plus others devoted to the same cause) that saved us from destruction 2000 years ago, but ALAS when Mankind Turned up and he Witnessed via Weylands Actions that Mankind had become Selfish and Wicked and NOW could travel the Stars... the Engineer had NO choice but to Proceed with his Original Mission to Destroy Mankind... where he maybe felt we Did-Not have to be Destroyed... but after witnessing we could now Travel the Stars and Sub-Create we had indeed proved to be too much of a risk to allow to have such Freedom/Technology.
This was my interpretation... i think it was likely the Original Concept... but this got changed after Editing and so we have our Angry SOB Engineers instead...
So we come to ALIEN COVENANT on thing RS had mentioned when talking about the Elders Scene being CUT from Prometheus was he NEVER wanted to meet GOD in the First Movie.... this implies those Engineers on LV-223 and our Sacrificial Engineer are NOT the Gods.
We can now turn to his comments regarding any sequel to Prometheus, where he confirmed THEY (Dr Shaw, and David) would be off to Paradise, where they WOULD meet these Gods, but they are NOT Gods in the Traditional Sense, and they are Far from BENEVOLENT but David is bringing HELL with him... what happens when the Black Goo is used on a God or a Machine?
We cant read too much into this... but we can accept that David and Shaw had reached this Paradise... and we then we have to look at potentially a MASSIVE clue that you forgot to mention Dark Nebula, its one comment by RS that may be very revealing!
RS confirmed those are not just Engineers... they are the ORIGINAL Engineers... another interesting comment is when he also said the Engineers are NOT a Race but a Civilization. He also said just as their are many Versions of Mankind, WHY cant the same be said for our Engineers.
These are VERY interesting comments, when combined with the look of those more Human looking Engineers and how they live for about 150 years and they have Females and can Procreate.
We then maybe have to start to LOOK at some of the Themes at play... we see that Perfection is a Key theme and the Pursuit of it and also Sub-Creating and having this Creation become Sentient.... this applies to the ANGELS created Perfect by GOD, with Lucifer being the most Perfect Creation but also one with too much FREE-WILL so he begins to Question why a being so Perfect has to Serve God and he sees the limitations of the Angels and sees a better way of Life where they Do-Not have to Serve... we can look at it as Lucifer/David and Angels/Walter in comparison.
It is maybe due to the Rebellion/Fall of Lucifer to why Mankind was created, intended to be Race Perfect (Adam) who would serve God without Question... but again via Forbidden Knowledge passed on via the Trickery of the Forbidden Fruit.. we see that Mankind had became FALLEN
This theme passes on with our Creation David, we can see the potential Problems a Sentient AI that thinks for themselves and sees them as more Perfect than their Creators can Cause! If all Synthetics/AI becomes like David then we are Truly Screwed! If David was limited in his Free-will like Walter then we would not be in trouble.
Now the reason for those Paragraphs is if we NOW look at our Engineers in Prometheus... and look at the things i have mentioned in this post, we can maybe see a likely pattern.
*Those LV-223 Engineers are FALLEN (well had became).
*Those LV-223 Engineers are NOT the Original Engineers.
*Those LV-223 Engineers appear to be more Enhanced and Engineered than those Engineers on Planet 4
*The original idea was our Engineers had lived for Thousands and Thousands of years, and had Evolved/Engineered themselves to a point they LOST the ability to Procreate.
This has been dropped with the introduction of our Planet 4 Engineers. But maybe its been carried over to the LV-223 Engineers? We maybe have a Repeated theme at play here.
David is a Humanoid... a Synthetic One, Created by Mankind, Engineered for Perfection, David would not live for 100 years but much more... Maybe we are being shown that our ENGINEERS had either Evolved themselves with Experiments to become those LV-233 Engineers. Maybe those Planet 4 Engineers had created the more Perfect/Enhanced LV-223 Engineers like the Replicants where in Blade Runner?
Had those Engineers Engineered those LV-223 Engineers to be used for some Purpose? did those Engineers create these more Perfect beings to use them to be Sacrificed to see more Enhanced DNA? Did these or some of those LV-223 Engineers Rebel? Then Sub-Create?
Or did a Faction of Engineers Tinker with the Creation Tool to Engineer themselves this way and were cast out?
It would be interesting to PONDER why those Engineers look so different, more advanced/enhanced and powerful and yet are NOT the Original Engineers.
Do those Engineers (LV-223) have more in common to David and/or Replicants?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The Military Engineers was referenced but we have to look at a few things, HAD those Engineers been purely created for a Military Purpose and at what Point? 35'000 years ago?
Why leave a MAP to a Military Outpost 35'000 years ago and come and visit us over and over leaving clues to this place at certain intervals...
*Was this always a Bio-Weapons Facility?
*Was it always intended to use this on Mankind or other Wayward Creations?
*Was it created as a insurance Policy just in-case the time came when they had to Eradicate us IF/WHEN we had outlived out use, or had turned out not as intended?
But then WHY leave the Star Maps?
How could they maintain this Place for over 33'000 years before they then LOST control of the Place and suffered a OUTBREAK around the Time they had Planed to Launch a Mission to Destroy us? Had they suffered a Outbreak before?
IF they intended to Wipe Failed Creations out, then WHY use a Substance that Creates Parasitic Organisms, that maybe would pose a Threat to any potential return... via Life being EVOLVED/REPLACED by Hostile Organisms? This would make Sense if Said Organisms had a Limited Shelf Life.
A Bombardment of this kind would be like dropping a NUKE on a Country you wished to Destroy, then waiting the Thousands of Years before the Radiation has gone and then you go and Take Over that Country and Expand your own Civilization upon it.
IF the Sacrificial Scene was the STARTING point, and we see the Sacrificial Goo had consumed the Engineer and it either USED his DNA to Create the Seeds of Basic Life or it was the Catalyst that would EVOLVE basic Life with the Engineers DNA.
Then WOULD-NOT dropping Urns of Engineers DNA not be the best option to RE-SET a World.. so that Life becomes infected and reverts back to a earlier Evolutionary State?
Back to PLANET 4, we have to ask WHY do those Engineers flock to the Plaza around the HANGER and await the arrival of a Engineer Ship? To welcome Returning Heroes from WAR? Surely if this WAR was to Destroy Mankind and they are FULLY aware of the Black Goo and LV-223 then would they not Question WHY it has been so long for them to Return?
Ridley Scott confirms Engineers return time to time and we have to ASSUME its not Thousands of Years, so if they are MILITARY and they return more regular then they are involved in the Destruction of MANY Worlds.... We then have to ask WHY are they involved in the Destruction of Many Worlds? If its because they are THREATS or out of Control Creations then are these Engineers so NAIVE that they see only their Race as the most Advanced and other Races are kept on Worlds in a State of Technological Evolution that is like Earth was Thousands of Years ago so they are NO threat to the Engineers (are not Techologically Advanced).
so they see NO need for Protection against incoming Ships... are these Engineers so 100% Confident that EVERY one of their kind will stick to the Rituals/Religion and Principles of their kind so there is NO chance of any Rebellious Factions or other Engineers who would go on to have different Agendas?
So these Engineers had NO concern for when those Military Ships come back, they are so Naive that they could NEVER ponder that.
1) Another Race or Creation could obtain their Ships and use them against themselves?
2) That the Engineer Race would never have Rogues who would USE their Weapons on their own kind?
Or when we consider my last TWO posts, is there another REASON for LV-223?
Those Engineers do not look Aggressive $"£%£$ they seem to shun Technology apart from where its Necessary, and we have to remember the BASIS of these beings is as RS refers to more often... SPACE GARDENERS
The Plaza has loads of Statues of Engineers, the Hanger has Statues that are in the Buddha Offering Pose! We have to ask WHY are these Statues around the Hanger, why that Pose? What is that Bowl they are holding?
We see the Engineers had a very Ritual way of Life, the Sacrificial Scene was a Engineer Offering his Body to Create Life.
WHAT IF the Plaza and those Statues Purpose is to Reflect their Sacrificial Ways.. What if the JUGGERNAUTS are just a more Advanced Seeding Ship... These ships return to Collect Chosen Sacrifices who will LIVE on in the Genetic Material they pass on to Create Life and are also Immortalized in Statues to their Memory/Honor?
Sacrificial Goo ==> Broken Down Mutagen that passes on Engineer DNA.... So what if this Engineer was Sacrificed inside a Container so that his broken down Material/Mutagen was collected into a VASE and this was then Poured into the Waterfall/Lake... would the OUTCOME not be the Same?
Would collecting Engineer DNA via the Sacrificial Goo and deposited on Worlds this way, not be more efficient than a Lone Engineer who has to then consume the Sacrificial Go (what happens if he changes his mind?)
Would not Sacrificing Multiple Engineers in a Ritual and having their DNA stored in Urns not only be more Practical but also offer more Genetic Diversity?
If we look at the Juggernauts, Sacrificial Ritual in this context then it would make PERFECT sense for those Engineers Reaction... this is the Return of a Ship where the Chosen are to be Gifted with the Chance to become something more than their 150 year existence.
Carry on with the Space Gardeners.... if you are wishing to Seed World and then Visit them and Evolve Life, then if we look at it as a Gardener, a Gardener who is Evolving, Experimenting on various Hybrids and New kinds of Plant, Fruit or Vegetable etc.
Would you not want a SANDBOX to work on your experiments and then when you are pleased with the results and sure they will not IMPACT or effect the other Plants, Fruit or Vegetables etc you have in your Garden, then you seed your new Creation in your Garden.
Then having a Nursery, Greenhouse a SANDBOX to carry out Experiments and Evolutionary Hybrids would make PERFECT sense... IF the Engineers are GENETIC SPACE GARDENERS it becomes more Practical to have such a place.
Which is WHAT i think LV-223 was, it was being Terra-formed for some reason... those Engineers could survive on the Surface of LV-223. So why do the Complexes support a Environment for Humans?
If this place is a SANDBOX then you would need a Environment your Creations can Survive for Testing Purposes and having Each OUTPOST separated by a distance in a Harsh Environment that LIFE would not survive in would ensure any Experiments that escape will not survive to get to the other Outposts.
THIS is what i think LV-223 was... it makes sense for the Star Maps.... they was showing us WHERE we was created.
Something maybe went WRONG, those (None Original) Engineers had began experimenting with something related to the Xenomorph DNA (Hence Mural with Sacrificial Bowl in the Original Scene).
WHY though? Maybe if we look at those Engineers as being more closer to David then we can make sense of it more. Or if they was a Faction who had became obsessed with the Deacon DNA/Organism. Saw it as Perfect and wished to use ITS DNA to Evolve Worlds rather than Engineers...
"Sometimes to Create one must first Destroy"
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think when we look at WHAT we really know about the Engineers, we have a ever Changing Landscape. The Ideas Presented down from the Brainstorming that lead to Jon Spaights Drafts and WHO these Engineers were/are have gone through changes with each Incarnation of how we are shown and what we are shown as the Prequels Progressed. So that ideas laid down in the Original Conceptual ideas may no longer apply.
We can apply this to the ELDERS in Prometheus we see them as Frail, Old but they have the same Marbled like Skin and Dark Eyes only their skin is vastly aged compared to the Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Engineer. But as the Elders Scene was removed... Our ELDERS may now look like more Frail/Older Versions of the Planet 4 Engineers.
Whether or Not the Planet 4 Engineers were intended to look how they was, or it was a cost saving OVERSIGHT, what we are left with is a Engineer Race who appear to be Pale, and have some Engineer Features but they seem to lack that Marbled, almost Glossy (Synthetic) look of those Engineers we saw in Prometheus (Omitting the Elders).
But these guys we have (Planet 4) are referred to as Originals and so HERE is what we know about their species.
*The are are Ancient Humanoid Race, who in some way have played a Role in the Seeding of Worlds and Evolution of Life on Worlds via Self Sacrifice.
*Those beings on Planet 4 are the Originals and this place is there Home-world.
*This could imply WHY the LV-223 and Sacrificial Engineer look different.
*The Hall of Heads and indeed likely those Heads Carved into the Mountains Represent the Engineers Past/Elders. They are the Hierarchy, the Apostles (of their ways) and Superior beings (to whom?)
*These Engineers live a very Ritual Life-style but they also seem to live a very Basic, Pre-Technological Revolution like existence by Choice (like say the Amish People).
*They had abandoned some of their OLD ways and Rituals, likely because the Power/Technology they possessed became to much for them, or caused them Problems.
*They viewed and likely still do that the Value of Sacrifice is very important to their Culture and maybe how they view/intend other Intelligent Life to Behave.
*It is possible the Prometheus Engineers are either a result of Genetic Engineering to enhance their kind, or are a purposely Engineered Creation in their Image.
*They in part have turned away from some of the things they had Experimented with and Created, maybe the Advancement of their Species had lead to their Near Fall in the Past and they DO-NOT wish to repeat this.
What is UNCLEAR is the Relationship between the Black Goo and these Engineers, The Advent Viral where David talks of Ancient Cruel Rituals that they have abandoned and the Wolf they had Banished and they knew they had to give Life to the Wolf and the Lamb.. are ambiguous.
It could mean these Engineers were involved in the Creation and Experimentation with Organisms via the Black Goo related to the Xenomorph/Deacon DNA but it could also just apply to the Sacrificial Rituals being classed as Cruel (i get the impression they are maybe seen as a Honor, but who knows how the Sacrificed felt about this, at least all of them).
So its still not 100% Clear at what point such Horrific Creations that the Black Goo on LV-223 could bring about has with those Planet 4 Engineers or their Past... or indeed those LV-223 Engineers.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think the Engineers angle is fantastic! Chariots of the Gods ..Ancient Astronauts! Very cool.
Do they still procreate? Or is all test tubes and growth chambers?
You'd think they've moved on from natural child birth.
Based on the flayed Engineer corpse in David's lab, who happens to have testicles and seemingly cut off penis, it seems that the Planet 4 Engineers procreate just like humans.
However, I don't think the same could be said for the Engineers from LV-223.
Much like Replicants from Blade Runner, who are bioengineered humans with increased strength, speed, agility and intelligence. They lack the ability to procreate because that's how humans made them (except for Rachael, who was an experimental replicant capable of procreating).
In the commentary of AC Ridley is offering some of the rule book he used to guide those involved in the production of AC whether actors or design artists so they had context.
Its a longitudinal view, a series of observations but carefully avoids a latitudinal view where we receive the history of the Engineers through story a moving narrative which has emotional and philosophical meaning.
Indeed none of these things are said in the film and therefore for the greater audience not considered important to tell the story.
I think its a mistake to connect these rule book observations with the questions posed by Prometheus for one simple reason. David did not end up reaching the place that Damon and Ridley had talked about in the closing months of filming Prometheus. As Damon said they may never "go there" either literally or philosophically.
There is I think a crucial disconnect between the Engineers behaviour in Prometheus and Covenant. In Prometheus the Mutagen is connected to the very building blocks of life whether literally adjusted or altered by inappropriate use. In Covenant it is merely a Pathogen like Ebola or Agent Orange which destroys its targets. No Engineer was transformed or adjusted as were the hammerpedes, fifield and holloway.
The neomorphs hardly represent the upgrade which was hinted at would be achieved if the bombers in Prometheus had reached earth. They oddly enough return us to Darwinism rather than an Intelligent Creation expressed with such power and nobility in the first few moments of Prometheus.
"As Damon said they may never "go there" either literally or philosophically"
Certainly and Ridley Scott also hinted that they may not go to where Dr Shaw wants, by virtue of mentioning once Davids head is back on and Dr Shaw is in Cryo-sleep.. then David has the Freedom to go wherever he wants.
So it does-not necessarily mean they would be going to Paradise or the Engineers Home-world but on the other hand they alluded that they would be going to this place.. I think a lot depends on in WHAT way does where those LV-223 Engineers came from relates to what we would call Paradise. I dont think it would have been a literal Paradise as in the Concept of Heaven... certainly not as far as where our Souls would end up with our Omnipresent, Omnipotent yet invisible GOD but likely a place that would have either reflected the Cradle of Creation as in the Garden of Eden, or/and a Place that only the Worthy are allowed. Its interesting that Ridley Scott had alluded to Paradise being a place that could be a Connotation of Evil/Dread or along those lines, implying Paradise as viewed by Dr Shaw would be nothing like the Paradise her Faith would have taught, or indeed a place that was once Paradise but is now Lost, a Pandemonium of Sorts.
I do think Prometheus opened up a MASSIVE Universe and Alien Covenant had SHRUNK this down...
We had been given a Background of these Majestic, Powerful almost Statuesque Synthetic looking beings who are very Ancient, Many Hundreds of Millions of years IF NOT Billions of years old. A Race who Seed Worlds, who seemingly could LIVE for Thousands of Years and are implied in the Seeding of Many Worlds. A Race who poses the ability to Travel no only to the FAR REACHES of our Galaxy but to other Galaxies (Why have a Star Map/Navigation to them otherwise?) so for these beings the distance between Earth and Zeta 2 is just a drop in the Ocean of their Inter-Galactic Travels.
But to have a Home-world that could be Many Hundreds or Thousands of Light Years away would pose a Problem for how to they introduce English Speaking Humans, a movie about Dr Shaw and David would not suit everyone.. and so with the need to involve Human Fodder and introduce the Plot of the events after Prometheus Chronologically tie to the Xenomorphs Creation... then a Paradise set on the Door Step to Humanity i guess was a Necessity.
Indeed we see those more Human looking Engineers could Procreate, we have Females, Space Jockey Penises and indeed infant and young Engineers.... where as the IDEA that led to Prometheus was these beings had Engineered themselves to the Point of loosing Procreation.. which if we consider that Mankind Perfects itself so our Organs Regenerate, and Age at a much slower Rate, say 10-100X slower and we have become immune to All or Most Diseases and Illness then a Super Race of Humans Engineered this way who now can live for 2000-10'000 years would maybe eventually loose the need to Procreate.
With this now dropped, and they showing us those Planet 4 Engineers are the ORIGINALS and can Procreate and only LIVE for about 150 years. It now does paint the Picture that those LV-223/Prometheus Engineers are a Engineered version of their Species/Creations.
The Question is are they Creation like David or Replicants, or are they a faction of Engineers who Engineered themselves to this LEVEL? The prior would relate a bit to what Prometheus had shown us with the layers of Creation, but the latter could apply to maybe the Quest/Agenda that a Mr Weyland would have had.
The Pursuit of Perfection, Evolution and Improving oneself are themes we have in the Prequels... but also a Hubris/Morality tail about Pursuing such things. It could be via NO Accident or Coincidence those LV-223 Engineers Pressure Suits and Technology shares some Aesthetic with the Xenomorph.
If you are a Race of Genetic Space Gardeners, then you would be looking at Traits of Creations/Evolution you have created/discovered and then look how to apply/mix this with other Creations or your own kind. We can see the Black Goo could be used to Hybridize/Mix Traits (Davids Creation had utilize traits of many Organisms he encountered).
I guess you also have to WONDER what does such a Race of Genetic Space Gardeners do when they Discover something that is Evolutionary Near Perfect... or has potential and THIS Organism is something the Engineers HAD NEVER created... they would surely be very interested.. I think the discovery of something like this and the attempt to incorporate its Traits to Perfect themselves is what lead to those LV-223 Engineers Hubris/Fall. I think such a Race or Related discovery of Davids Creation would attract their interest too and their attempts to Harness/Perfect this Discovery of Davids Creation will ULTIMATELY prove theirs and the Space Jockeys Down-Fall.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"In Prometheus the Mutagen is connected to the very building blocks of life whether literally adjusted or altered by inappropriate use. In Covenant it is merely a Pathogen like Ebola"
Indeed, also in Prometheus it was referenced similar to a Pathogen like Ebola i think indeed it works as such to a degree, but certainly the differences between the Sacrificial Scene and events in Prometheus with the Goo, were kind of complicated to a degree... I think there is a few reasons why it appeared as such... partially because of a reduction in Xenomorph DNA they wanted and THUS a less Xeno-Virus Mutation Fifield.... and i also WONDER if the Engineer Corpses and Cryo-sleep Engineers where Props already worked on/near finished based off Spaights Draft?
Which could lead to clues that can cause confusion? Indeed little things like the replacement of the Sacrificial Bowl with the Green Crystal also confuse things a little.. (but it had to be done as the Scale of the Bowl to Holloway would have suggested the Sacrificial Engineer was 10ft Tall).
Then the release of the Weyland File made things even more contradicting..... when in reality Jon Spaights Scarabs had the Explanation we needed if we look at it as a Creation/Evolution and Hybridization Tool.
But then we came to Alien Covenants Bombardment which muddied the waters a little... but ALAS the Advent with the Radical AI allows the Substance to be a McGuffin and have it basically do what ever the Writers need it to do.
The only Logical Explanation now is the Goo can be Programed to act a certain way as far as how interacts with Organic Life... So that when it contacts cells it breaks them down where either it then becomes a mutagen to pass the DNA of those Cells on... or it breaks them down to allow the Mutagen (with pre determined results) to Multiply.
But when it comes into contact with a Procreate Cell, like a Egg and so a Cell that could become a Zygote or other Cells of Reproduction such as Spores... then it uses these Procreate Base Cells to Hijack and Create a Procreated Hybrid form of the Xeno-Virus.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think a interesting thing to PONDER and Question would be some of Ridley Scotts comments in relation to the Engineers both from the time of Prometheus, to the time in-between and Alien Covenant and just prior to Alien Covenant. And over the years Ridley Scott had not really mentioned much regarding our Engineers and the Bio-Weapon Black Goo he seemed to mention more about the Engineers in relation to FALLEN ANGELS and Paradise Lost but also Creators and Space Gardeners.
When talking about Fallen Angels, it appeared he was referring to those in Prometheus but he could also mean the Engineers in General.... he had also mentioned he DID-NOT want to meet God in the First Movie this could set up meeting GOD/GODS in future but it certainly meant the LV-223 and Sacrificial Engineers were NOT the Gods. This implies they are a Creation of another Race.
When we get our Planet 4 Engineers who he refers to as Originals, this kind of hints to us those Prometheus Engineers came after those Planet 4 Types.. we have to look at RS comment about not wanting to meet GOD in the first movie in context with the Removal of the ELDERS scene. With the HALL OF HEADS room, he tells us these beings are the Wise-men, Apostles (of their Culture/Rituals) and Superior Beings.. Superior to WHO? Those Planet 4 Engineers or just Mankind... they was also referred to as the HIERARCHY and so we MAY have not seen those beings yet who are likely the ELDERS they could look nothing like those in Prometheus... (Older Frail versions of Sacrificial Engineer) they could be just Older Frail versions of the less Pale/Less Synthetic looking Planet 4 Engineers... maybe they a Race related but not the same?
I then think we should come to RS comments prior to announcing Alien: Paradise Lost he referred to we have ONE Handsome Guy who goes to all the Parties, gets all the Girls and then another LESS Handsome Guy who stays at home being boring!
When we look at AC we see those Planet 4 Types appear to stay at HOME and live very Basic and Ancient ways of Life, while in Prometheus we do see those more Majestic Statuesque Marble looking Engineers going around Seeding Worlds, and Visiting Worlds.
The Guy who goes to the Parties and gets the Girls could be a reference to the Fallen Engineers, because RS also had mentioned that he felt the Fallen Angels in Paradise Lost had the most Fun and so a sequel to Prometheus would delve into these guys.
So does this mean our Planet 4 Engineers are ANGELS and the LV-223/Sacrificial are FALLEN ANGELS? We have to ponder HOW/WHEN/WHY they became Fallen. Can we look at the relation between David and Walter in comparison?
We certainly get the impression of the Space Gardeners being the GREATER cause that these beings go around doing, while we dont see the ELDERS due to the Scene being Cut, maybe we have to ASK why does our Sacrificial Engineer look more like our LV-223 Engineers (who are not the Originals) rather than our Planet 4 Engineers who are the Originals?
Could it be the Sacrificial Engineer is a Engineered Perfection of those Planet 4 Engineers or the Hall of Heads Elders? A Creation that Can-not Procreate (having a Superior Creation Procreate is not Good). so they are Created for a Specific Reason like David.... much like the Iggi too (Sumerian Mythos)
Could these Created Beings who cant Procreate (assumption) but are used to Seed their Superior DNA, could these beings had Grown the same Sentiment towards their In-superior Creators that David had with his? And these then decided to Create and Miss-use the Black Goo for the same Reasons David had?
We can see that David as with Lucifer had become Fallen, because they saw the Perfection they were, and Questioned why should they Serve..... and in hindsight the Free-will a David/Lucifer had over the Angels/Walter is what allowed for such Pride, Question their Role as Servants and Rebellion against Creator...
Could the same thing had happened to our LV-223 Engineers?
This assumptions makes sense and fits with the Themes of Prometheus and RS comments, the ONLY FLAW well a Major one.. is... IF those Planet 4 Engineers are aware of the Fallen LV-223 Engineers then WHY would they have no Concern or Fear for a Returning Juggernaught?
The only Logical Explanation would be that there are either many places these Juggernauts are based, and ONLY the LV-223 Engineers Rebelled and this was TAKEN care of, or that these ships are numerous and also Piloted by our none LV-223 looking Engineers too.
I have always wondered what the supposed Sources comments meant too, as they had implied a Blade Runner plot was at play but more so a MATRIX kind of Plot and one of the last things they said was the Plot was a Basic DARK CRYSTAL Rip Off...
I can kind of see a connection when we look at the Mystics (maybe Planet 4 Engineers) and Skeksis (LV-223 Engineers maybe). And the broad Plot which is a Race urSkeks and a Faction of them trying to PERFECT themselves with the Dark Crystal but at a Great Hubris that caused them (Fallen 18 of them) to be Banished from their World to another World Thra where they attempted to atone and use the Crystal to Cleanse them of their Dark Ways but split them into the TWO Races.
When looking at the Plot as far as Background to the Dark Crystal i can indeed see how it could connect and how it also could connect to Paradise Lost.... but who knows..
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Change of Direction not Plot
You have missed my point about Damon Lindelof's remarks. Ridley and Damon had a view about the type of world that Elizabeth and David would go to. They knew in mid 2012 what that looked like and would answer the questions of Prometheus. On seeing Covenant Damon's view is that where they ended up was not that "place" not because David rerouted the craft or it was not as Elizabeth expected they have simply changed the direction of the story. They were going to the Engineers Home world its just it looked nothing like the John Logan vision of a great place which David turned over.
Prometheus 2 in the autumn of 2012 had no monsters it was obviously a story about what does Paradise look like in a mythos which is neither materialistic or creationism. Naturally it would have included within it a sense of what is life which is at the heart of Bladerunner and particularly 2049. It would have also answered where do we go when we die and what is a soul the two big questions for David and Elizabeth.
People can speculate on what is now merely texture and a plot device till the cows come home. The tragedy is not making story out of it. If you want to communicate something of a belief system a creation system the story has to be about that not just a rule book so you can put a monster on the screen to get bums on seats. The point about the Dark Crystal Story is it puts the mythos inside the story by making "it." the jeopardy. Equally David and Elizabeth when they turned up at Paradise were not simply going to have a ten minute de brief on the meaning of life something has to be at stake.
The Mutagen of Prometheus.
What the Story Tells
That it is a creation tool. Hammerpedes, Fifield, Charlie and Shaw. Indeed in Damons script when Elizabeth pleads with David to remove the foetus he says you might want to consider this is not destruction but creation. Its earlier form of the power line "in order to create first you must destroy." Davids words to Elizabeth better reflect what the material in the ampules are a manipulation rather than mere death. its a very powerful line but it means in the context of what we see in the story first we must overwrite the original format and then replace it with something else. So Charlie and what he is would be destroyed in order to make him something else. Equally the mutagen has stimulated Elizabeth's reproduction system but overwritten the outcome. That is not how a pathogen works thats a mutagen.
Conversely the story of the head and what happens to it is you think momentarily it might be a mutagen but its outcome is pathogenic.
What the Props tells us
The piles of Engineers indicate all the Engineers died in a catastrophic one off hit, some of the Jockeys believed entering the sanctuary would save them clearly it did not. Janek correctly interprets that through his story to Vickers.
To Elizabeth after studying the head the video logs it looks like the Ebola her father died of is a pathogenic outcome.
Those two strands of narrative are not taking us to the same conclusion. There are two separate things happening here.
However to return to the Grand Theme of Prometheus whatever the precise cause of the wipeout on LV 223 the message is they meddled and all ended up dead instantly no one got away.
"Cavalorn" in his wonderful treatise takes the view that misuse itself will lead to punishment. Is that punishment existential (we know it is wrong so it becomes wrong) or is it external (another element is actioning the punishment).
if we had arrived at the Engineers Homeworld I am sure we would have found out the answer. The clue for me is in what happened after the outbreak someone was satisfied with the outcome. You also have to wonder why one Engineer was left alive was their a simple explanation or was it design part of the myth of Pandora. I think for Peter Weyland that applies but it put David as a rational objective being on a steep learning curve which like Elizabeths healing of him as a rational objective being should have had rational consequences unless he is merely mad as a box of frogs.
I always assumed showing/visiting the Engineers homeworld was a budgetary thing.
I personally would have David and Shaw find all the Engineers in hibernation.... locating billions of hypersleep chambers beneath the surface.
David "If I wake one...It will wake all in this sub chamber......... and I fear we are unprepared to greet 10 million Engineers..."
@Michelle Johnston @BigDave is there anything to gain arguing about one or the other said if RS makes it up as he goes along (as he reads something in the Telegraph or in a other place)... I will say only good health to Ridley .
The answer to your question is self evidently no. But I believe in two things :-
1) That Damon was right to assert that the answers were there for the taking in Prometheus. If people do not study text or chose to overcomplicate things thats their affair.
2) I will not give Ridley a pass by saying that he adjusted the script of Prometheus 2 and slipped the Xenomorph in. That is patently not what happened. He is business man who thought making another movie about an Intelligent Creation within the context of an ALIEN type association had no legs.
He maybe right but making a movie about a mad robot who made the Xenomorph had no legs either, certainly not with my generation who came back to Prometheus in the same way he did to create and experience something genuinely fresh as he described in 2012.
What I would accept as a criticism is I maybe guilty of repeating myself in which case I will shut up. Johnston Out.
When I first joined this community back in late 2011, I, as we all did, had high hopes that a prequel to Alien would expand the mythology in the way we had always hoped - establishing the Xenomorph and their creators as ancient biomechanical terrors with technology and motives beyond our comprehension. We hoped for Giger meets Lovecraft meets Dante meets Milton. We wanted grandeur, terror, mystery, and wonder.
In all honesty, Prometheus didn't deliver, but it was a stepping stone towards what we had hoped, something Paradise seemed to be a further step in the right direction. Unfortunately, Covenant was a step backward, an attempt to appease the social media masses, with a stroke of ego massaging from Scott - self-proving his "point" about the Alien.
Personally, I would like to see the franchise continue by putting the Alien itself center stage, and the main focus of any expanded mythology. I believe Paradise could still be part of the prequels, maybe a Hadley's Hope streaming serial, or some low-budget movie explorations of the creature to help expand some of the mythology.
As for Scott and his obsession for Fassbender - have him make a movie called David, exploring the characters history pre-Prometheus and linking Blade Runner to Alien. beyond that I feel Ridley should leave Alien well alone. His contribution is noted and appreciated, but remember the Alien we know and love is the result of many, many minds, of which Ridley's contribution is but a small part in the grand scheme of things.
"You have missed my point about Damon Lindelof's remarks."
sorry... yeah i think i know now what you mean, there were a number of comments made about the direction of a sequel, so i was trying to think which you could have implied.. I now see it was regarding how the Place may be the same but its different to what picture they had painted back after Prometheus was released. I guess a lot of things change as we go along, like those Planet 4 Engineers and LV-223 Engineers, at the time of just after Prometheus can we say the vision of these beings would look would have been slightly different to our Sacrificial Engineer or would they had appeared almost the same.
Now forgive me if i again get this wrong... i am thinking you are referring to HOW Lindeloff either saw what is important about Prometheus and where a Sequel would go.. as far as Creation and how we have the Scientific Darwinism aspect which includes the Big Bang as the starting point.. But then we have the Faith/Spiritual Aspect where a ever Omnipresent yet Unseen God. Then we have Prometheus offering a Go-between to Blur the Lines (Chariots of the Gods).
So we had this Mission for the Truth, to meet our Makers, and what they found may have gone against Dr Shaws Faith Teachings.. but she still keeps her Faith... and along for the Journey we have David... Mankinds Creation who is has already met and knows his Creator and he is not Impressed/Disappointed in his Creators, and he sees the disappointment that Holloway and Dr Shaw may have found when they Found/Sought out their own Creator and finding out that to OUR creators we are insignificant would maybe have a interesting impact of Davids thinking because now he kind of has ONE over his Creators. Yet David is on this Journey because Dr Shaw still wants answers and is still keeping to her Faith, and hope that their is more to Creation (of Mankind) and her Faith which includes where we go when we die and the Spirit and the Soul... and while David may see this Quest is for NOTHING and he may already know its a Folly and they kind of have their Answers... David appears to be interested in this FAITH that keeps Dr Shaw searching. So the continuation could be seeing just WHAT Dr Shaw can eventually find out and if our Creators and Purpose are anyway close to what Dr Shaws Christian Faith would show (Relationship between our Creation, God, our Soul). or if indeed its just as unimportant as Weylands Creation of David, and what David learns from Dr Shaws continued Faith in spite of it all.. so it could indeed send David on some kind of Spiritual Journey. WHERE and WHAT would have been revealed i am not sure Lindeloff had hinted or revealed... i doubt they would have even gave a definitive answer and so it may have been left to Ambiguity because Lindeloff seemed to be one of those who FEEL that ONCE you are given the Answers..... what happens if these Answers are NOT what you expected and so sometimes some things are best left Vague and to the Imagination.
Or maybe your point is regarding how Lindeloff had felt the way Paradise well Planet 4 was revealed, which is maybe also the role those Engineers appeared to play, how the place looked... was NOT like what he and Ridley Scott had envisioned when thinking of where to go NEXT... By that perhaps this place Aesthetically is not looking or feeling as AWE inspiring to fit the BILL of these Ancient Creator beings and their Homeworld... if i recall Lindeloff felt this place just never felt like the Homeworld of a would be Creator Race of Godlike beings.. that this Planet was maybe a Detour and that prehaps we would get to the REAL Homeworld of such Godlike beings at a latter point, that would feel and look different to what Planet 4 was. Which did have the impression of just a Ancient Settlement like these Engineers may have visited on Earth Thousands of years ago.
I think a lot depends on what they viewed a Paradise would look like, what does a Home to the Gods look like... is it a Place sitting above the Clouds with Angels playing Harps and at the top of a Stairway a Gate into this Kingdom.. Is it a place thats Dark and very HR Gigeresque.
RS had said this is the Home-world (Planet 4) but i do think they Do-Not look a Race that has Ships that can Travel to Galaxies and i find a Godlike Race who can Travel to Galaxies who have their Home-world with very little of this Technology sitting right on our DOOR-STEP a bit of a Coincidence, but likely a Plot Convenience for the U-Turn to introduce the Xenomorph Origin and Series of Events that place its Creation to Events that lead to those Eggs getting on the Derelict as taking Chronologically after the events of Prometheus.
In part the route taken has not really done what could have been these Enigmatic Creator Gods any Justice, but who knows if they would introduce us to another Aspect or Higher Race that would fit this Purpose...
The Dark Crystal i think i can use to look at Prometheus... where the Elders Scene could give us a sense of similar to the urRu/Mystics the LV-223 Engineers the Skeksis and if we look at it like that i guess we could have expected to see a Race much like the UrSkeks but what we ended up with was a Race that while having some kind of element of Peaceful/Basic Living Folk like the urRu/Mystics the Planet 4 Engineers looked more like just a Religious Group of Buddhist Monks than Superior Beings.
I think it would be interesting to see WHERE they had planned to explore what Dr Shaw would have found in relation to where we go and the Soul, but i was not drawn to them showing us Literally say Dr Shaw dying and her Spirit then meeting some Magical Divine God... i had a feeling the path we would have been taken would have been Sinister and nothing like her Biblical Faith.... but thats just my assumption.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I also find indeed Dr Shaws fate as in Prometheus, where she could not Bare Children... and how the Black Goo had allowed her to Create, just not a Traditional Fetus.. and its interesting to see how David would have viewed this Creation, for it is after all still a Child of Dr Shaw's or is it? It depends on the outlook one would take, and we have to wonder what outlook had David taken... indeed in the Draft, David sees it as Creation. You are drawn to Ponder that David would maybe have wanted to see what the Outcome was, and surely as he maybe NEVER got to see the Full Implications of this Creation, you had to wonder would he like to see his event Re-Created again? I was always drawn to Ponder David offering Dr Shaw a LIFE-LINE... she had lost everything but her Faith and this has been put into Question with the findings in Prometheus, but she still has Faith and wishes to continue to get her Answers.. And i felt as Dr Shaw HEALED David... i pondered would he be able to offer her a THANK YOU... what if he felt he could Reverse the Defect that meant Dr Shaw could not Create Traditional Life...... what would Dr Shaws Answer be to David offering her a potential way to have a Child?
This was something i was going to explore in a Prometheus 3 i was planning to work on, but Ultimately i had intended the Horror that Dr Shaw would just be used to not Produce Off-spring so she could start a New Paradise.. but David had a Agenda to use these for his own Perverse Creation...
Years latter when we saw those leaked set Photos of what i noticed were Human Baby Skulls... i wondered if indeed this is what David had done, and those Unfortunates where Babies of Dr Shaw's that David had helped her to create so that he could use them as Experiments.... but it turned out the REAL REASON for them was Engineer Infants, so he must have subjected Engineer Females to the Fate i had intended for Dr Shaw if i had perused the route i would have taken.
One of Davids comments about how he had offered Dr Shaw a chance to start a New Paradise together but she rejected, may indeed indicate that the Writers may have been thinking along the same lines.
I would not say arguing is accurate, i think we both have a slight difference in interpretation for some things, but your correct regardless of what we interpret of think makes sense, its ULTIMATELY down to what they choose to show, and there seems to be a trend of changing things on the FLY.. Those points DarkNebula pointed out could be MOOT by the time they show us what comes next.... it does not matter what RS says in interviews or commentary, the Planet 4 Engineers being the Originals, and Living for 150 years etc... because as far as ONSCREEN we dont get none of this Spelt out for us and so its subject to change much like the Inevitable Space Jockey Event which seems to be heading for a route that was NOTHING like what RS had at the time of Prometheus were he explained it (Off Film) but chose to not go the route of showing it On Film... which now seems to be a U-Turn.... but again they could U-Turn things around once again. So discussions could be Pointless in Context to what we will eventually GET if EVER.. but its still good to discus them with others, regardless of their view on the matter.
"I always assumed showing/visiting the Engineers homeworld was a budgetary thing."
Could be... i think maybe also it could have to do with a HR Giger Estate thing.... Originally Concept Artist were allowed Freedom to touch upon very Giger-esque Aesthetic but then they was told to TONE it down.
On the other hand if we are connecting to the Chariots of the Gods and Ancient Mankind as far as our Aesthetic in Construction etc... Then ancient cultures such as for example the Ancient Egyptians or depictions of Greek Gods, never had a ALIEN HR Giger Aesthetic and so maybe having the Home-world of these beings Aesthetically looking similar to Ancient Mankind Aesthetic was a way of making things just TIE into the Chariots of the Gods Plot, as opposed to a HR Giger World thats very ALIEN.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think you raise some good points... in hindsight indeed the Chariots of the Gods was maybe not the right way to go, they wanted a Prequel that had to give more than just the Xenomorph, was the Bigger Question more about WHERE did the Xenomorph come from... was it Engineered/Created or Discovered or a mix of both... then it was to ASK what was the Space Jockey doing with the Xenomorph... did they Discovery it as a Pre-existing Organism, did they Create it?
This is what the PREQUELS attempted to Answer and had shown it was kind of a MIX... but they felt that the other thing to explore once we ANSWER Why the Space Jockey had those Eggs and well their connection... would be to explore WHO the Space Jockey Race Was....
This is where the Curve-ball Chariots of the Gods Plot was introduced.... a Bold Plot... and its this Plot that FOX felt should be explored more and to steer away from the Xenomorphs that then caused the Evolution of Jon Spaights work to Damien Lindeloff's
For some this was just NOT Alien enough... some may have felt the Space Jockey was a Skeleton and Expected a Giant Elephantine Race... but close inspection and Concept work showed it WAS a Space Suit... just maybe the occupants ended up being too close to HUMAN in size and appearance.
But DEEP in the Creation Themes there is maybe a Answer there that could be explored... We have to ASK the reason for Creation..... and Culture to Culture, Religion to Religion and Mythos to Mythos there are many themes that are similar. Maybe DAVID is the Answer staring us in our FACE!
David is NOT our creator, he is our Creation, made to Serve a Purpose, a Purpose he Rebels against.... what happens IF David overthrows and WIPES OUT his Creators..? Knowing the History of Mankind.. our Faith in our Gods and our Mythos that turn out to be the Engineers and then Discovering the Truth about those beings and their Destruction too.
David is NOW the GODS... what kind of a World would he Create... would he get Bored of a Xenomorph Creation that Can-not hold a Conversation with him... would he become LONELY? What if David on a FAR FAR away World... with NO Humans or Engineers EVER being able to Visit (as they are all GONE) what if he uses some Human Embryos to Resurrect the HUMAN Race... and have them believe that HE is their Creator and GOD were David can then lay down his own set or Rules/Commandments, thus becoming his OWN God and Creating his own Religion and Mythos... then Generation, by Generation these Humanoids Expand in Number have Religious books devoted to their GOD and his Rule...
Can we FATHOM this happening? If your open minded and say YES or MAYBE... then i want you to CONSIDER THIS!
If the thought i just proposed.... David introducing Human Babies into his WORLD having them then believe he is GOD (how would they know any different) then could you see the potential for a NEW Religion/Mythos spanning from this and ASK what happens in Thousands of Years after David has gone off... but these Humans follow and tell of their God and his ways....
YET David is NO God... he is a Creation, meant to Serve but Rebels against this and is NOW the God... If you can consider such a thing happening.... Then ASK..
Could something like this have happened before... Millions or Billions of years ago... where a Creation meant to Serve some Role has Rebelled and NOW become the New Gods Creating their own Mythos....
When we look at HR Gigers Concepts and his comments regarding those Concepts.... then indeed we could introduce a ANCIENT History regarding the Role the Engineers Served LONG LONG ago... But become Free from this Servetude and are now the GODS..... then ask WHAT Happened to their Creators and WHERE are their Creators...
This Layer could be something very Lovecraftian with a HR Giger Twist...... THIS is one of the ideas i was thinking of exploring for my Eventual Reveal... when working on a Prometheus 2 and 3.... but in part some of this conflicted with other ideas of who the Creators of the Engineers are, so i abandoned any such ideas..
It does not mean something like this could NOT be explored in Future... One interesting comment Ridley Scott mentioned about Prometheus 2 back in late 2012... was that David was bringing HELL with him and what happens if the Black Goo infected GOD or a MACHINE..
Could a Bio-Mechanical God who is so unlike anything we could possibly consider, be something worth exploring?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I would like to come back to what may have been the Original Plan after Prometheus wrapped up, but as IgnorantGuy had mentioned we have had a lot of things changed as they go along. After Prometheus it would seem Ridley Scott and Lindeloff had ideas of where they would take the Franchise.... it appears Lindeloffs comments more recently after Alien Covenant, seem to indicate that the Vision that Covenant had laid down was NOT quite what had been discussed back in 2012.
It really depends on what exactly he meant as Prometheus was vague, and comments by RS afterwards are also a bit vague and he can latter make comments that seem to contradict... But it certainly seems that the Sequel we got was very different to what Lindeloff and Ridley Scott had discussed after Prometheus. It depends how we interpret the comments by Lindeloff... but it does seem to imply that he feels the World David ends up on is NOT the World that they had envisioned as far as what we got, compared to what they may have planned. There has to be some differences if Lindeloff looks at Planet 4 as a Detour and not the Destination that leads them to the Engineers Home-world.
We have to look at WHY/WHAT this could mean?
*Is it the Landscape/look of the World... was the Engineers World or Paradise as envisioned by RS and Lindeloff in 2012 a similar Earth like World? was it a Dark World like LV-426, a Vision of Hell/Brimstone? Was it intended to be a place so Alien and looking more like LV-223 in Fire and Stone, or a World like PANDORA in James Camerons Avatar... or the Pearly Gates of Heaven?
*Is it the Aesthetic/Culture of the beings they were to discover, and so is the Technology/Lack of it and the Aesthetic of the Buildings not the same as intended?
*Was it the beings they discover... and so was the Aesthetic of the Planet 4 Engineers different, more simplistic or their implied Culture and Ways that are similar to those of Antiquity? or were they to meet a different Race all together?
I think we need to look at what was known at the time of after Prometheus...
We are introduced to these Engineers as Ancient Majestic Race, from the Seeding/Sacrificial Scene, with the Pale, Genetically Perfect Marble Statuesque looking Engineer. To latter the LV-223 Engineers and their Bio-Mechanical Technology and Suits.. We are also introduced to the ELDERS but as this scene is removed.. we maybe have to not consider their appearance..
Ridley Scott had said after Prometheus that he DID-NOT want to meet GOD in the First Movie (this i believe was in context to the removal of the Elders Scene). This implies the Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Engineers are not GODS. But it depends in what context RS did not want to meet GOD... does he mean GOD as in a single God or as in Gods... does this mean those Engineers are the Creation of another RACE? or is the Term Gods more in tone with a kind of Hierarchy like how the Pharaohs are in Ancient Egypt? as this really is the BIG Question in that context..
Ridley Scott confirmed that Dr Shaw and David would be going to the Planet of the Engineers, where they would meet these beings.... who are NOT Gods in the Traditional Sense.. (are these beings different to our Engineers?) and they are Far From Benevolent (in General or only in Context to their actions towards their Creations?). RS and Lindeloff had indicated that you had to go where Dr Shaw wanted to go.. you cant leave a Movie ending with Dr Shaw and David jetting off and not follow where they are going.
So it has to be the idea/portrayal of HOW this World would have looked/felt and HOW those beings on this World would have looked like and reacted to the Arrival of Dr Shaw and David. It appears Lindeloff feels how Planet 4 and its occupants looked/were represented is NOT how they had envisioned. A lot depends on HOW did they view PARADISE to be.... was it a Lush Beautiful Paradise of a World... or maybe indications it ONCE was? RS had indicated that Paradise could have the Connotation of being a Dark and Sinister place... this does not have to mean a LV-426 looking or what you would picture HELL to look like... it could be deemed Dark by the Sinister Agenda and Outlook of its Inhabitants/Rulers.
We have to maybe look at Dr Shaw, as she is the one who wants Answers... she had been brought up with Faith in the Biblical God and Religion, yet she had been told before that their are different Cultures who have different Believes and Gods.. During her Adult Life it was her LIFE'S work to piece together many archeological digs clues that indicate the potential of interaction from some Visitors not of this World across many points in History and Locations that could indicate that Most of Mankinds Religions and Mythos could all stem from ACTUAL contact with a Race of beings from the Stars.... These Findings have the Potential to Discredit her Faith she was brought up on.... However... seeking out these Clues could give her the Hope of Finding these beings or Discovering Answers that could either put her Faith back on Track, or Reveal a Truth that would disprove her Faith....
The Prometheus Mission discovers that indeed those Star Maps do take them to a place, where they discover the remains of a Humanoid Race who are Genetically Related to us.. This kind of proves that THEY (Engineers) maybe created us... but Dr Shaw still tries to Clutch at Straws with her Faith by asking WHO created them? Upon finding out these beings had intend to Destroy their Creation.. Dr Shaw as in Denial.... choosing to believe that HER God would never intend to Harm the Human Race.
So she is off to hopefully shed some light, that hopefully reveals there is a Higher Power/Creators above the Engineers and that these GODS would surely not want to Harm Mankind but Love us... The Question is WHAT does she discover and DOES she get the chance to find out.... and at very least if there are no Gods, then she wants to know WHY we was created, and then to be Destroyed.
David is along for the RIDE... he has always known who his Creator is, and he knows how his Creators Race have treated and viewed him... he was disappointed at his Creator knowing he was more Superior... he knows the intended reasons for his Creation... and it was not to be looked after, praised, cherished... So a BIG Question would be DO OUR CREATORS... have a similar outlook and view towards US as we have towards David... or are our Creators/Gods the Benevolent God who Loves and Cherish his Beloved Creation? As Per Dr Shaws Faith..
For a Android who feels apartheid treatment by his Creators Race yet he is more Superior... you have to wonder what the Revelation of our Creators and how we are maybe NOT Special for them.. and what this does to David.. he would maybe feel a bit of Justice.. Pleasure in knowing our own Creators Care little for us too..
Its also interesting that in-spite of all that is discovered, Dr Shaw still holds on to her Faith, and that she will discover some being or beings who will FIT more with what her Faith Teaches that a Loving Gods intentions and view of us are.. David who is discovering his Emotions and is NOW Free, would surely Find the Pursuit of answers and Faith Dr Shaw holds in spite of it all.. INTERESTING..
But back to HOW what we got in Covenant is different to what Lindeloff/RS had maybe envisioned... Even if we dont ask is this Paradise different in Appearance, it certainly seems the beings that Dr Shaw would have met or found evidence off, would certainly had appeared more fitting with would be GODS than those beings on Planet 4 are portrayed as... We also have to Ponder the Questions of WHY Create and WHAT is a Soul and where to do we go when we DIE...
These are things RS had teased with, but things that are certainly not touched upon in ALIEN COVENANT and we have to ask are these things that would have been covered in the Plans they had in 2012? Was they really going to reveal there is a SOUL/AFTERLIFE or reveal only such a thing applies to those who Created the Engineers... or even reveal there is NO SUCH thing...? This really is the Big Mystery... and i think IT along with a few other things would be things they would give a few Curve-balls or things to Ponder but not SHOW us a Definitive YES/NO to those kinds of Questions... because when you Answer such things then the Answers are maybe never as Interesting as the various Imaginations that each Viewer could be drawn to conclude.
What it BASICALLY came down to in 2012 was that those Engineers in Prometheus are NOT the Hierarchy or ones running the Show... and then the Question is WHO are and are these GUYS Godlike and is the Demeanour of these beings towards us or in General Benevolent or maybe even Further from Benevolent than our Engineers in Prometheus where... and DO those above the Engineers even know about our Creation? IF not how would they view the Creations of their own Creation Turning up Asking Questions.. and is it wise to seek such Questions..
Alien Covenant did-not really Answer or Touch upon such Questions..
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
What if the engineers from LV223 were the gardeners of space, the ones that cleanse and seed new life on different planets, the engineers from Paradise being only the DNA source, the sacrificial engineers.
This would explain why they welcomed the arrival of the Juggernaut returning, in their opinion, for the next chosen one.
Or the engineers from LV223 were just replicants in charge with seeding and cleansing worlds, LV223 the factory and storage place for the pathogen/mutagen and the outpost for the 'gardening' missions.
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
"This would explain why they welcomed the arrival of the Juggernaut returning, in their opinion, for the next chosen one"
This is the conclusion i am most drawn to, as far as to explain Planet 4 and how these beings are presented and have little concern over the incoming Juggernaught... i am drawn to maybe the JUGGERNAUTS and URNS being a Evolution of the Seeding/Sacrificial Method of seeding Life.
This is described better in the Post and ones near it that i made where i have posted the Image of the Sacrificial Engineer Scene and the Hanger.
The LV-223 Engineers as Replicants is interesting... as thats how i am kind of drawn to these also..
*Where these Guys Created for a Specific Reason? By and with the knowledge of those on Planet 4?
*Did the Planet 4 Engineers see these other Engineers in Prometheus as being more Perfect and Chosen their DNA to Seed Worlds instead of their own?
*Did those Prometheus Engineers Evolve themselves and then decided to Seed their DNA on Earth and other Worlds and so THIS was not intended by those on Planet 4?
All interesting Questions to Ponder...
Maybe we could consider them in context to the Movie THX 1138
As far as some Purpose where in this context the Robbed Monks are the Elder Engineers, and where the Android Police are the LV-223 Engineers?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I don’t think that the Engineers are done, they are still important in a way and I hope that we will see more of them in the next movie if there is one. Hopefully they will have a part in the Derelict thing and not David, so hopefully they will be used for that purpose. They should have had more of a role in AC but unfortunately it was reduced to story about a mad android, something that I can not relate to. By the way, I wonder what the differences between the sacrificial Engineer in Prometheus and those in AC are? I guess that it could be that they have different tasks but I would like for them to expand on that a bit in the next movie if there is one.
There was a cut scene in P when the Elders gave the sacrificial Engineer some thing before he dissolved into the water. I wish that they could have kept that scene because that would not have revealed too much about their culture but rather have made the viewers interested if it would have been done right. Sure they could have had a reason for cutting it but I would have preferred if it would have stayed in the movie.
As far as some twists are concerned as BioDegradable puts it, I hope that we will see some interesting things that are unexpected but that are good (not of the quality of David creating the Xenon, ugh!) but we will see if that happens. Yeah it sucks that it is all about David now.
Give David a lesser role/less screen time in the next movie if there is one and focus on the Engineers and the humans with well done human characters. I don't really care about the David story that much, that is one of the things that brought AC down. The themes mean nothing if the characters and the story don't work. Right now there is no one to support so that has got to change and I do not mean that they should give David a change of thoughts but that they should introduce sympathetic and interesting humans in the next movie. Maybe someone will say that it is too late because the prequel trilogy is on its last chapter but I say that they should try to make an end to it that hopefully will make up for Prometheus and Alien Covenant because the result that we have after P and AC is not very impressive to say the least.
It is too bad that we got what we got, I would prefer an interesting movie about the Engineers than a poorly done movie about the Xeno but then you can also say that AC wasn’t about the Xeno as much as it was about an android that had gone bonkers.
“We hoped for Giger meets Lovecraft meets Dante meets Milton.”
Do you mean about the aesthetics (landscapes and that)? That didn't disappoint me, I think that they made that interesting both in Prometheus and Covenant although Prometheus looked better in that way.
As far as David is concerned I think that Scott should make a movie that is just about David. Unfortunately the story about David is connected to the prequels and because of that the Alien story in general. I would not watch a movie about him since I just don’t care that much about the character. Let Scott make a movie about David or something similar but do not have it connected to Alien because that would probably just give us another mediocre movie connected to the franchise. The whole situation about the franchise is just so disappointing.
Didn’t Scott say that it should be the story about the Xeno? It is not even about that at this point. The whole thing is about a mad robot that wants to create for what ever reason. Unfortunately he just cares about David and everything else has got to take a back-seat because of that which lowers the quality of it. Right now we have two prequels and neither of them is very good. Hopefully they can get it right with a third prequel if there will be one but I doubt it. I would honestly prefer if they did not do prequel number three if we would get a disappointing one, I would rather get nothing than to get some crap.
“We also have to Ponder the Questions of WHY Create and WHAT is a Soul and where to do we go when we DIE...”
Interesting but leave that to another franchise, I would like to get some more information on the Engineers and why they created the Xeno but I guess that a movie about what you mention would be too much to answer especially if we will just get one more prequel, if that. To me that sounds more like a fantasy movie like a crazier version of The Hobbit or what ever.
Paradise could be like the home world of the Hobbits and so on. The heaven could be like that one even though it is not very much like the Alien franchise but that is my point that the franchise is not very much about that at least if we follow what was established in the first three movies. It wasn’t until Prometheus that we got these questions and it feels like Scott is more interested in that than to deal with the monster. He could make another non-alien movie about that, it would maybe make some people interested. Maybe I would watch it but if should be a movie of its own.
“These are things RS had teased with, but things that are certainly not touched upon in ALIEN COVENANT and we have to ask are these things that would have been covered in the Plans they had in 2012?”
Maybe he changed his mind and got more interested in the story of David than a movie about those kind of things. He seems to change his mind a lot, maybe that makes it difficult to make a good story to begin with since things change now and then.
Yup, I think that the idea is interesting but there is so much that you could do with these things so you would eventually make some fans disappointed no matter what you do, like with the alien prequels really. The higher you aim the more likely it is that you will fail.
Perhaps it would have been better if Prometheus would have been a stand alone movie? This would have required better characters and maybe a somewhat different story but when you look at it the movie had potential but got somewhat screwed up along the way but I still can watch it from time to time. Even since the start that was a really mixed bag for me, it is not bad but it is not very good either and there are parts of it that I really dislike but is a two out of five for me, so that is pretty much unchanged.
As far as the Engineers in Prometheus versus those on Planet 4 the Prometheus ones looked a lot more interesting. The AC ones looked like a bunch of farmers from way back. Replicants? Leave that to the Blade Runner thing and similar movies, keep it away from the alien franchise.
"It wasn’t until Prometheus that we got these questions and it feels like Scott is more interested in that than to deal with the monster."
The Original Idea was to give us Xenomorphs, but also different kinds and then hint to us that there are various related Organisms that are created via using a EVOLUTIONARY CREATION TOOL to experiment with some related Organism that is likely NOT a creation of the Space Jockey Race.
But once you have answered HOW/WHEN the Xenomorph was Discovered/Created and we have our Answers, and once we have a Spoon Fed Plot to show HOW/WHEN the Eggs got in the Derelict, then its a Question of WHATS NEXT?
Once we reveal the Xenomorph is a Engineered Weapon... HOW MANY more times can we introduce Eggs, Face Huggers, Chest Busters and Xenomorphs?
So when working on a Prequel this was no doubt one of the MAIN things to look at... if the Xenomorph is a Engineered Weapon, then the BIGGER Question then is WHY as in who was this Weapon Intended for and for what Purpose (to Attack or Protection from WHO?)
Once you have answered that, its then how many more Done to Death Xenomorph movies can you push out! Once you have answered the Xenomorph Origin and Purpose and who it was intended for its a case of WHATS NEXT?
Which then would likely be to EXPLORE the Space Jockey Race!
*Who are they?
*Where are the rest of them?
*What Purpose/Goal to they have?
These are what they can explore ONCE they have answered the connection with the Xenomorph, especially if it was a Engineered Bio-Weapon. And this is where the ENGINEERS/GODS Plot came into play... Bold indeed... a error in Hindsight? Maybe...
"Perhaps it would have been better if Prometheus would have been a stand alone movie? "
They hoped it would Branch off to be its own thing, and steer away from LV-426, and Xenomorphs... but i guess the point you are making is that IF there was NO Weyland Company, IF those Engineers Suits/Ships DID-NOT look like the Space Jockey suits and Derelict.. and Finally if the Black Goo and Organisms DID-NOT look to close to the Xenomorph... Then it could have been a interesting Stand Alone Franchise but once the Plot is Connected to the ALIEN Franchise it was bound to not set right with some Fans, and when it then NEVER provided enough Answers for them, it further disappointed those fans.
"Replicants? Leave that to the Blade Runner thing and similar movies, keep it away from the alien franchise."
By Replicants.... i mean that it appears that those Prometheus Engineers could be Genetically Upgraded Creations of those Planet 4 Engineers. There is a connection, they are different but also similar. So just as Humans are Similar to Engineers, just as Replicants are similar to Humans, and David is similar to Humans (only not Organic) This was the connection they are trying to make, in the pursuit of Creating in your OWN image.
So we may have though the Prometheus Engineers are the Gods/Creators... but the route they are taking now seems to imply they are just a Creation/Upgrade of those Planet 4 Engineers.
Ridley Scott Broadly is touching on the subject and chain of Creation/Creator and Rebellion by Creation and Hubris of creating something in your own image and then when this Creation becomes Sentient. It also touches on the Pursuit of Creating Perfection and the Hubris this brings.
"Sure they could have had a reason for cutting it but I would have preferred if it would have stayed in the movie."
Ridley Scott had hinted WHY the Elders Scene was deleted, and in part it was because he Did-Not want to Give to Much away in the First Movie. And also he Did-Not want to meet GOD in the First Movie.
This implies the Prometheus Engineers are not the GODS and indeed their is a Hierarchy above them, the Question is would this be their Creators? or is the Hierarchy more like Egyptians Pharaohs and Demi-Gods or is it more like some Ancient Cultures such as Native Indians in that the Elders are just the Old/Wise?
We really could not be sure... could it be that RS intended to show those above the Engineers in Prometheus would look more different, than just OLD, FRAIL versions of those Prometheus Engineers?
Another thing to consider is the passing of the Sacrificial Cup from these ELDERS to the Sacrificial Engineer, which we see the Elders are about the same Height as the Sacrificial Engineer.
ORIGINALLY the Altar in Prometheus had the Sacrificial Cup and NOT a Green Crystal and this Sacrificial Cup was LARGER compared to Humans (Holloway) which if we ASSUMED it was the Same Cup than this would IMPLY the Sacrificial Engineer and Elders are LARGER than Humans and NOT as in 7-8ft Tall but as in 10ft Tall.
But we could all see the LV-223 Engineers were NOT 10ft Tall, and so that would be a Good Reason to Replace the Sacrificial Cup/Bowl. By then removing the ELDERS it could imply our Sacrificial Engineer is about 7-8ft Tall... which LEAVES it open to have the Beings/Elders above those Engineers to be introduced as a TALLER 10ft+ Race
By showing the Elders Scene we would be shown maybe that the Sacrificial Engineer and Elders are about the same size as the LV-223 Engineers... Especially if the ALTER Sacrificial Cup/Bowl was kept in place.
But ALAS we was shown some differences with the Paradise Engineers, but they was about the same size maybe bit smaller than our Prometheus Engineers... the comments about the Engineers, seems to indicate those Prometheus Engineers are a Creation (in their image) or Upgrade to those Planet 4 Engineers.
HOWEVER... we have still not seen the ELDERS it is indicated they are the Hall of Heads Engineers, and RS had confirmed these are the Origins of the Engineers Ways/Culture and the Hierarchy/Leaders but also suggesting they are SUPERIOR BEINGS lets us Ponder in relation to WHO? Planet 4 Engineers, LV-223 Engineers, or Humans?
This means IF we explore who those Hall of Heads Engineers are they could be made to look like OLDER versions of the Planet 4 Engineers, or OLDER versions of the LV-223 (like Deleted Scene) or even have them as a TALLER Race.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"The Original Idea was to give us Xenomorphs, but also different kinds and then hint......."
My brother and all his friends assumed that Prometheus was about the Xenomorphs and it was their origin story. I Had to sit them down and explain the why/what/who.
To the casual viewer, it's was probably Ripley or the star beast. Space Jockey who?
After Prometheus and AC have been out for a long time now, I look at the Engineers in general as being wiped out by David.
I think RS had a idea to bring them back.... seems he was not pleased with the Direction of Alien Covenant, due to him mentioning that he felt he was (ahead of the curve) with Prometheus.
He has indicated the Engineers are NOT all gone, they do return to Planet 4 and certain Intervals and they will RETURN to discover what has happened to their Civilization on Planet 4 and WONT be pleased about it.
So he has indicated that the Engineers will be one of the 3/4 Incoming Parties to where ever David ends up with he Covenant Ship. Is it interesting to Ponder HOW is it RS cant make his mind up that its 3/4 Parties? Does this mean ONE Party is actually TWO Parties who differ somewhat, be that Agenda or Looks...
Could that mean we have Planet 4 Types and LV-223 Types? or only ONE type and if so which?
So i think they will come back, well they was planned to be, but its in what Context/Role i know RS was interesting in the Themes of Prometheus and the Creation/Creator Rebellion and Sub-Creation Theme.. Which David/AI fits in and he is also very interesting in the David Angle in this Context.
The Question is he interesting in this angel in Context to our Engineers, and will we be seeing more Depth/Story regarding the Engineers... or is there RETURN only needed as a PLOT DEVICE to obtain our Space Jockey and his SHIP?
This is interesting to Ponder because the Plot for Prometheus gives more scope than to just having these Engineers visit Earth, Experiment on LV-223 and Originate from Planet 4.
Where else have they seeded LIFE, how many more Intelligent Organisms have they Created/Manipulated and Evolved? How many other Worlds have they Visited and still visit and how many Worlds have the Colonized?
Because Prometheus seemed to indicate this could be MANY especially for a Race that has been doing the whole Seeding/Evolving for Many Millions or Years.. and ESPECIALLY for a Race who have other GALAXIES in their Space SAT-NAV Systems.
So it would be interesting to see HOW much RS would be bringing our Engineers back... the whole he could do another 6 movies and the WAR OF THE WORLDS route he would take the Franchise if he was allowed... Does kind of make us wonder HOW such a Plot could contradict the Alien Franchise?
It WOULD-NOT if the Space Jockey/Derelict Event was closer to the Time-Line of ALIEN (10 or less years prior) AND if they removed ALIENS onward from Canon.. Then a WAR OF THE WORLDS aftermath to Alien Covenant would NOT affect or cause any in-continuity problems with a ALIEN sequel/sequels.
I just dont think that would SIT well with many Fans, but then also going the War of the Worlds Route could conflict the Alien Franchise.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think its something to consider about WHAT Engineers would RS had introduced us to, in any sequel to Alien Covenant.
Planet 4 or LV-223 Types?
I think a lot of Fans were disapointed the Planet 4 Engineers just seemed to not look as Inspiring as the Prometheus ones, was this only in PART due to the Technological Level and thus a LACK of HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic to their City and Clothing?
Or was it also the more Human looking appearance, due to lacking that more Synthetic, Marble like Skin Tone/Glossy look with cues of Purple Pigments, Dark Veins and Darker Sclera that the Prometheus Engineers had?
I know a number of Fans are Wondering what this difference is, was it intended? Or just a Production Oversight? Well when RS has mentioned the Planet 4 Engineers being the ORIGINALS it leaves these other Engineers as being Genetically Evolved to some degree, and Engineered that way for a Purpose. Is this a Natural Evolution that had occurred due to those other Engineers traversing the Galaxies, while the Planet 4 ones stay at home in the same Environment they have adapted to? Or is there other Reasons those LV-223 and Prometheus Engineers could be different and Engineered?
So maybe due to the reaction Fans had to those Planet 4 Folk, maybe its the Prometheus types that would be re-introduced?
Or is there SCOPE to introduce us to another related Race, who are Taller, thus would make the Space Jockey Size Anomaly less of a Concern?
Well the earlier ideas and concepts was a 12-15ft Race of Engineers, but even 10ft would appear large on Screen.. also some of the Concepts looked a little less Human than even the Prometheus Engineers... some even MUCH less Human looking than our Engineers.
So its still very interesting to see what is revealed about our Engineers, and WHOM is at the Top of their Creation Hierarchy.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017