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prometheus opening scene

prometheus opening scene

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ali81

NeomorphMember1823 XPJul-27-2018 12:44 AM

gna have to bare with me as it may seem like im going all over the place but in my head it makes sense.

when do we think this scene took/wouldv taken place on earth?

when I first saw the film I took the assumption that the scene took place on earth and the engineers were seeding life on earth and by that I mean life started on earth because of this sacrificial engineer. now a Cpl of things come to mind if this is the case. surely only humans would have come from this OR, this may support the theory that the black goo comes in many different forms as the engineers have found a way to program it for certain tasks. would support the different effects we see between the sacrificial engineer, Fifield and the engineers on planet 4. now scientists believe ALL life started in the sea. well theres a waterfall so checks out ok there but the mutagen would have to be tweeked. it may need a base gene for reference but has the ability to reorganise it into whatever organism suits the environment otherwise u just get humans from this scene.

is it more likely that this scene, assuming its on earth, took place after the extinction of the dinosaurs? once the earth recovers, the engineers find the planet and seed it? in this case do we just appear or does the fact the mutagen is in the water mean that indeed we did come from primates who had been drinking the contaminated water? bare in mind the mutagen is heavily diluted so this would take millennia to happen

thoughts 

149 Responses to prometheus opening scene

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPAug-11-2018 9:58 AM

@ignorantGuy

IG I like your point about Oedipus because David cannot have the cross over relationship with a mother. He might see Elizabeth as a mother (a point you have made) and he might see Charlie as competition. I must go back and watch that three way scene where he saves her I am fairly certain Charlie looks territorially challenged. I think David wants to be able to hangout with Elizabeth but maybe not sure what to do next. Personally as a woman I cannot envisage a man with no capacity for sexual reproduction at all and no sex drive:-

1) Wanting to create or feel the loss.

2) Or sleep with her.

He is more like the boy at school who has a crush on a girl and the girl likes him more than any other confides him goes to him but never considers getting it on with him.

My worry about your thoughtful analysis is that you may be flattering the writers or Ridley who comes in the room and says great that fits and walks out. Remember his comment when the movie was called Paradise Lost "thats a huge poem but thats the title thats as far as it goes."

I do think the Lawrence thread though for Prometheus was much more fully realised and thrilled that it was.

Back to Oedipus its a real shame that Meredith didn't try and come on to David and show how much more adequate she was as a real girl. "Come on David its see if you have what it takes" Michael and Charlize would have had some fun with that and David switching off his head visor would have then be a real F... You.

I like Idris performance with Meredith and his heroic "that was a great .... you aren't a robot after all now get off the ship vibe" Indeed that provides our answer as to what Ridley thinks about getting it on with a real robot. NO.... sorry thats what he thought in 2012.    

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPAug-11-2018 10:18 AM

@BioDegradable

Sorry that brings up another point. The Engineers on planet four may be entirely different to the guys on LV 223 and we the audience have no idea as to whether he finds out or not. I mean visually because of issues of cost they look like they are presaging out for a view of a coming home they maybe stupid but they are certainly innocent.  Indeed in Advent there is the implication that he finds out and they have gone soft so why wipe them out. The work of Renaissance Man ? 

I mean in Lawrence on the road to Damascus David Lean shows the Turks have raped the woman and killed the childen and still Lawrence is counselled to show restraint by Ali but the audience are appalled but understanding of the Arabs slaughtering the Turks but Lawrence is seen to be unhinged by this stage where is Davids motivation as he misquotes Percy Shelley ?

It is just plot point convenient to clear the decks.   

ignorantGuy

ChestbursterMember899 XPAug-11-2018 10:29 AM

@Michelle Johnston I also recall that when making the first BR, RS imposed an interdiction to the crew to read the novel and that he found it impossible to read, or something along this line.

And I also said to you at the end when Shaw says that she still believes even if though she was proved that the Engineers are not good/God for me is ironically reminiscent of the end of Do Androids..., were the androids prove that the Mercerism (a religion based on empathy) is fake but then Deckard has an epiphany. Also, don't we all remember the scene where Shaw gears up for the meeting with Engineer? She did look like Christ during the Passion.

Was this only accidental? Probably it was and it you're right. 

Also we did answer to your questions, he receives compassion and he rapes and kills, and without his father he becomes. This might not be satisfying for were many.  

 

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPAug-11-2018 8:18 PM

Michelle,

one of the reasons David wiped them out, is not because he was a renaisansse man in that particular case, although he is quite a man of that epoch, a Leonardo Da Vinci type actually, but because they, engineers on planet 4 had entirely devolved. They not only did not better themselves having benefits of all this time and this potent mutagen technology, they went backwards, even by their own standards. They replaced it all with something that resembles faith, religion, cult, whatever you call it. Recall, we are shown two distinc times in the Prometheus where David wanted to learn the motivation of the subject to follow unfounded and delusional blind beliefs. Shaw said it was her choice, it is what she choose to believe. I have to say, in reality, not many people privy to one or other religious schoolf of though made the decision to join on their own. Some one made it for them. Shaw made such a choice on her own. And I suppose, David respects that choice of hers, even though it turns out to be silly in that universe of theirs. It was not Jesus or proverbial god (as she believed bearing the cross ) who created them but these stupid ogrees, as she found out. So, even though religion is irrational absurdity we are shown he can respect people's choices as did Shaw which he saw during his neuro connection where her father says that they don't want my help because their god is different and I respect that. Weyland certainly did not believe the traditional abrahamic  religion but he also did not believe in a chance. And he certainly was vindicated in his belief, though, ultimately, his creators shunned him. So David has all the reasons to doubt any form of religion.

Now, we know David did not value humans. And what he found was that habitants of planet 4 were humanoids, who looked a bit like barbarians and damningly for them they looked like they established a religious society where they idolized another humanoids. What are they good for with their set of beliefs for David? Besides, he just gave them the taste of their own medicine. All those bombs loaded with mutagen was used many times. I suppose it was deployed on humans as well, and multiple times really. So, in a way, he humbled the race of creators. Not a bad story, to teach a lesson or two to creators of your creator.

But what was his immediate motivation is not as clear to me. Was it because he was almost left stranded as a result of actions of one of them engineers? Was it because, their tech has contaminated his Elizabeth which he was not expecting? Was it perhaps because they killed Weyland? I am not sure David would have a grudge because of the later. However, the other two might actually be the reasons, even though I doubt it. Perhaps David was not expecting his experiment on Charlie to contaminate and flaw Elizabeth. And why do I think he had something for Elizabeth? Why else would he come on intercom and warn her that he, the mad engineer, was coming after her? He knew she had almost no chance against that big boy, but laying there with his head decapitated he still bothered enough to give Elizabeth the chance, however small it was, to escape her imminent death at the hands of this dirty and angry bastard. And the engineer was mad. Instead of going for other ship, he went for the kill, for vengeance, retribution, displaying his quite human vices and lack of judgement even for such an advanced specie, supposedly a god worthy figure. He ultimately paid for his stupidity with his 2000+ years old life.

We are told that David has learned their ways during the travel to the planet. And this is the plot convenience. He learned all about their barbarian nature the moment the engineer ripped his head off. Wether they are innocent or not did not matter, because he happened to have a ship full of nice liquid they know about and the fact that he didn't value them because they were totally unworthy. Unlucky for the I suppose. If you argue that they are worthy and all. Well, why didn't they have defense systems in place which would just in case protect them in their god worthy indulgement on their playground?

 

In any case, the easiest explanation why he wiped them out is because for safety reasons. There is no indication they might be sanguinely appreciative of alternative life forms. They might have torn them to shreds the moment they stepped out of the ship. Precaution. Especially, that the first time around David came into contact with them it did not go well at all.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPAug-11-2018 9:47 PM

As for quoting Shelley, it is a plot objective to display his, David's fallibility. David is on a journey from a thing, a robot, an object, property, to his own person, free being. A god.

In the process, however perfect he might be, he is shown to us to be fallible, in a similar way humans are fallible. He made mistakes, which is humanity's essence, an attribute which David doesn't like(would he be proud making human like mistakes?). And this is pointed out by another synthetic. Were it a human pointing out those flaws David would disregard them. But the fact that another synthetic, and a crippled one at that, who was made to serve, a slave points out to him, who was not made to serve that he is in fact become as bad as humans is quite an insult to David. I assume that was the point. And David can't quite blame Walter being biased, because the wrongness was observed coming from David himself. When a note is a half the whole symphony is...that is the diplomatic way of saying David you are broken, insane and all your theories are void and null or at least suspect.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

chli

ChestbursterMember935 XPAug-12-2018 1:13 AM

Michelle Johnston

Yes, to sacrifice people is very benevolent. The Mayan culture tortured the “lucky” victims by heart extraction (and other kinds of disembowelment), hurling people into deep pits or sinkholes, burying them alive etc. Aren’t they the lucky ones? The acolyte also seems to have a jolly good time after his cup of tea. As a matter of fact, I don’t think it’s his cup of tea at all. So, isn’t the opening scene gorgeous? Wouldn’t you want to try that cup of tea, Michelle? I really recommend it!

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPAug-12-2018 1:36 AM

@BioDegradable

Your post is quite illuminating for three reasons:-

1) Your having to do a good deal of leg work to make sense of the Engineers on Planet 4. This is supposed to be episodic film making which in musical terms operates like a symphony where the story grows and reveals more of itself as we move forward. We actually know less about everything at the end of this film. Other than David created the Xenomorph in a cave by killing everybody.

2) Your observations about Elizabeths faith are most interesting and I wonder whether they did not pursue Ridleys interest in the creation/paradise story because as you say we live in a world where people see Elizabeths view as naive and her view that there is a God of any description out there as plain nuts. 

3) The Engineer coming after Elizabeth was to create the Deacon to provide the riff. Its actually inconceivable that he would survive if you see where the Prometheus hits the Juggernaut. Its a stretch that Davids remains would survive but the former was to drive the plot to the Deacon.   

Would it have made any difference if Elizabeth had survived and there was no life boat exchange. Elizabeth has two options :-

1) Die. 

2) Enter into a co dependent relationship with David.

If she opts for Number 2 there is a much bigger issue than hauling him off the bridge. Does she put him back together. If she does as a devout faith based person she only has one option and one reason for doing so.

John Logans initial response having done that is they arrives at this extra ordinary Paradise and David rips her head off and destroys Paradise. I am quite happy to report I would have walked out of the cinema at that point. 

Makes sense for an ALIEN franchise (all answers have to be dark). But they recognised the dilemma of this and hid the story in fudge and mudge.  

 

ignorantGuy

ChestbursterMember899 XPAug-12-2018 1:48 AM

chli You seem to forget that in history were willing sacrifices. Look at the Celts (look at the Lindow Man, who was even high society and his death was giving back to nature so that it might provide in the future) or the Dacians (the chosen one will live after dead and will speak with the Gods, after being killed by being thrown into spikes/spears). The Mayans and other cultures sacrificed slaves and prisoners of war, not people willing to die.

There is a difference and the acolyte seems to accept it's fate, his death creates new life which will eventually be sentient and return home (gaining an afterlife of sorts). Ok, nature can be a big b***h so the benevolent part could be argued. However, the  Xenomorph it's an abomination, who will sacrifice anything sentient only to produce more of itself, without remorse and the rest of the quote.

chli

ChestbursterMember935 XPAug-12-2018 2:00 AM

ignorantGuy

Yes, leaders in a culture can make people believe anything and thinking it's right. Terrorists are indoctrinated into this. I get my reward in heaven . . . Don't buy it!

ignorantGuy

ChestbursterMember899 XPAug-12-2018 2:38 AM

chli Sorry I did not say that at all. I don't think that religion appeared as as mean to manipulate and psychology is a way more effective tool to manipulate and I bet you wouldn't say the same thing about it.

ignorantGuy

ChestbursterMember899 XPAug-12-2018 2:47 AM

@Michelle Johnston

To be very honest, there quite many people who criticize that ending as she could return home as it stupid to go find out where the Engineers home. How does that make sense? She does not have nothing back home, she does not want people to return to Lv-... and she would have driven back to the front yard of the Weyland Megacorp. (a clearly evil corporation)? David also would have been still a slave or decommissioned.

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPAug-12-2018 2:54 AM

Actually, Elizabeth had no choice really, at that point. Or rather it was to die a  miserable way or die a bit later but with a slim chance of pursuing her quest for answers. She came all the way, lost everything and at that point she was all in. David knew this. However, she stunned David a bit more, when he expected her to go home, to Earth, while she actually asked him to take her where they came from. The questions, this quest of hers is irrelevant according to David(these ogrees won't give any satisfactory answers anyway, therefore David said the answer is irrelevant. He saw enough while on board of engineer ship to see that they never had a grand plan for humans anyway), yet her belief, her drive, grit and determination amazed him. I think she showed him actually that there is something in humans that robots won't have guts to do: to go on and try the irrelevant looking thing. It takes courage to do the thing especially if it might cost you everything. I suppose David became more fan of hers because of her show of character. And she was putting it on display not for vanity, she was just doing her thing.

 

I actually like to think that she died on the ship, while they were travelling. I guess, the answers she would get if she had the chance to reach planet 4 engineers would be rather dissapointing for her. David knew all this and I like to think that one of the reasons he wiped the planet is because of her struggles and how it would frustrate her to no end at the end of all things. Just imagine her seeing these creators doing their own thing, praying to no end their own god-humanoid faces sculpted from stone, with no purpose and no meaning. Where is the thrill in that for her, having made all this journey and at what cost? She died because of the goo(And David actually). He, David might be mighty mad at those engineers(although innocent). Because, even out of billion people, he will probably never come across a person like Elizabeth, perhaps a single human person he came to respect, admire and eventually love. So perhaps that is why David was emotional when he was releasing the payload on those folks. I like to think that David indeed liked her and having lost his only friend, a partner he was feeling the pain. He doesn't otherwise has anything worthy to mourn about except the most unlikely friendship relationship he ever had. Recall, he only had warm things to say about her. No damning thing about her at all, even though she was from that contemp deserving humanoid specie homus moderno sapiens.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

chli

ChestbursterMember935 XPAug-12-2018 3:00 AM

ignorantGuy

If "sacrifice" is the central part of something we hear or see, how should we look upon it? Janek does a heroic sacrifice but the acolyte is indoctrinated. He has been taught to believe that his sacrifice is heroic and he will get his rewards in history, or afterlife. It's not beautiful - it's horrific!

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPAug-12-2018 3:48 AM

Regarding sacrifice and all. There is a slight technical difference in the context of these movies wrt to some sequences. Some of them are true sacrifices. Some are not, or rather it is a sacrifice technically but of a different sort. Sacrifice is something you pay for dearly while it is very unlikely for you to know what sort of benefits you will get in return. In fact it is not a sacrifice if you know precisely what you will get from your actions. So for instance, Janek is not actually sacrificing himself. He paid a hefty price but he did it to save lives - a very direct and definite outcome. He took the gamble, as did Chance and Ravel. There is no sacrifice in it. Only a heroic act - an act of duty for all his loved ones back at home. He paid/traded his life for other lives. A sacrifice is when you trade something costly for nothing or rather immaterial. Like that sacrificial fellow in the opening scene. What did he receive in return? You would say immortality, but that is highly questionable. To accentuate, if that fellow having gone through such experience, would he again take that deal given a chance? If he would say "I would rather not, but if you insist..." then I would call it a sacrifice. Janek on the other hand would always choose to die for a chance to save Earth. And that is why it is not really a sacrifice to me. I hope you see the point I am trying to make here. And I would say Elizabeth sacrificed(forsaken) her life when she chose to follow her quest further. She was willing to die come what may, even if she dies never learning anything worthy, like she did. We watch her sacrifice herself but we never see the payout, that is why we feel mad. Would you pay such a price on such a deal with such questionable outcome? If you do, then sacrifice your life in my books. If however, you agree to amputate a part of your body in order to get rid of sarcoma you can say it was your sacrifice of that body part of yours, but I wouldn't call it a sacrifice. Just like Janek never really sacrificed himself in my books.

 

Sorry if this is abit off topic.

 

But this is also a part of the reason why David is mad at engineers - they set up an ellaborate trap for a person he dearly came to value. He did not like the deal they gave her, so to speak. But I understand that this is rather perverse way of impicating others, especially if it was all her choices that led her there. And hence he cleansed the dealer and damned his choices. My two cents.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember763 XPAug-12-2018 4:37 AM

I do not want to end up in a conversation about the meaning of words though 80% of arguments are effectively that.

Hard sacrifice

The acolyte was offering himself voluntarily on the basis of faith. He gave up whatever the privileges of life were to do so.

Soft Sacrifice  

Janek and the others were taking noble actions to save mankind I would call that a sacrifice but Janek knew there was no future unless he did so I can see that is a different kind of sacrifice both routes lead to death but then Meredith showed us the opposite survive at all costs.

However we are talking about an episodic film sequence and it remains my view that sacrifice is a cornerstone of the mythos.

For me this conversation is about two things.

1) We spend a good deal of time right at the beginning of Prometheus setting up the notion of creation through sacrifice and that theme has been set aside.

2)David and Elizabeth leave the planetoid and the audience has very clearly established views of them and how they interact with each other  

Those two narratives were essentially placed in the trash can as "bull****" and I profoundly disagree with that view whether its Fox,Ridley or focus groups who want the Xeno on the screen. 

Thats me done as always its enjoyable discussing these matters with people who have a passion for these stories whom are respectful and to be honest what I am doing sub consciously is a certain amount of audience research in seeing how people react to my thoughts. 

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPAug-12-2018 5:02 AM

It is rightly called bull**** because it is all bs of sorts, a fantasy, just that they are in it for money, ultimately, and therefore they are apt to follow their target paying audience. What I am here for, is I am willing to sacrifice my money in return of hope of a good story. However, the dealer choices have been awful after the prometheus hookup. Hence I am here getting my frustrations quenched by some of the posts on this board. Besides, it has been a long time to shine some light at that interesting Prometheus movie. I am afraid, the writers were breaking the fourth wall when they were saying "the answer is irrelevant" through David. But I still got to see an interesting relation develop between David and Elizabeth. Even though they didn't get much time for fun, sadly, because well, a lot of general audience wanted an ALIEN, not some obscure and unlikely story between an android and a human. Oh, well.

 

Michelle, sure thing sacrifice is the foundation of the movie.

Perhaps humans were periodically wiped out the moment they stopped sacrificing their selves, when they stopped this practice of monkeying the religious norms of their creators. And the payback? Well if humans were not going to be doing sacrifices out of their volition, they were going to be sacrificed anyway by non-consensual sacrifice through a potent specie, produced by the help of mutagen. That is to say we were meant to mimic their religion and if not...well, you get the idea. Btw, can you imagine David sacrificing himself for anything really? Hard/soft, I don't really. Because, for him, nothing is greater than him - he is the god, the peak as far as he is concerned, therefore I don't see David sacrificing himself, unless he becomes utterly humanly eccentric through his journey. I recall him citing poetry finishing with words that one can die happy producing such a masterpiece. Will he die for his children to have half a chance to survive? His perfect organism? Well, if the xeno strain carries some of Elizabeths markup, I like to think he would.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPAug-12-2018 7:25 AM

I was pondering here earlier what if synthetics were treated with dignity, would they treat humans better than David did. The partial answer is given by Walter. Daniels even went as far as asking him to help her build cabin on the lake a role reserved for a very very special person. But then again, Walter was built to serve, unlike David. And Walter,by his own admission said it was his duty to sacrifice his part of the body for Daniels, not love or anything else. And then again he was ready to throw himself at David(without a limb, a disadvantaged position really) to save Daniels. Duty again? She was the highest ranking officer at that time, but Walter's loyalty should be for the colony not some particular member of the colony. These film makers are playing with us - they surely want to establish a relationship between a synth and a human.

 

So, does Walter have something beyond duty towards Daniels? Can you understand her somewhat intensifying feelings beyond friendship towards Walter? Her offering to stitch him up. Her wanting him to be her soulmate, a cabin builder-helper. She wasn't really looking to friendozne Walter, like she would T, for instance. They won't ever be partners with T in honor of their shared partners lost to a common mission, I presume.

David is the opposite of Walter. He is her rapist. Non-consensual "friend", who bizarrely is almost identical to Walter. Interesting "sexual" game we are dealt with. She is "okay" with Walter, but not David, who is supposedly much better than Walter, simply because he is not a slave. I guess, we will see Walter come back for his Daniels to rid her of her rapist.

PS: oh, on a side note, did film makers throw in Walter-Daniels gravitas so that those people from Prometheus who were curious about synth-human had something to look for in the sequel? While I am curious to see what it looks like, I wasn't reallly happy with the substitute for Elizabeth-David relationship. Too on the nose, too crude Ridley! What do you think you are doing?!

 

PPS: is it just coincidence that all those ancient people that Holloway found who had those nine planets/stars constellation practicied human sacrifice? Michelle, this looks like right up your alley. Perhaps there is something to it? The almost throw away comment I made earlier where I conjured the reason why they came visiting Earth might be because people stopped sacrifice? That engineer that Weyland woke up knew where these monkeys came from, and instead of offering some sort of sacrifice they wanted more life.

Besides, who do you think Weyland's fav character was in LOA? I know who David found sympathy with, but I presume it was Weylands fascination with LOA that got David hooked up with it. Weyland exposed himself completely to David while allowing him to surveil him under his neurolink. Damn, Weyland completely disregarded David it seems. As the later conjectured early on that Weyland will not find what he is looking for on the LV-223, but it seems he never had the balls to tell it to Peter. That is how I take his "there is nothing in the desert and ..." Weyland's death was in vain. He was shunned by these "creators", who themselves did not posses what Weyland was looking for. His last gasp "There is nothing.." gives away that Weyland came to terms that he will die and the fact that he was at the last moment okay with it since anyway "no man needs nothing" - he redeemed himself in the eyes of David, who even wished him a good journey. He even pitied him in the end despite the fact that Weyland abused him to no end.(all those remarks about no soul - a public humiliation of a superior being infront of inferior beings that are humans, about him being his slave and his place despite his superiority...) Yet David showed grace towards "Mr. Weyland". It is rather curious detail, but in AC David is free to badmouth Weyland, that is, he is completely free of any failsafe obedience programming that he had when Weyland was around, which was fully shown in bring me this tea scene.

This is a gift to David from Weyland. Complete freedom. Not only that, David inherited Weyland Corp completely, because his security code was still obeyed by MURTHUR on the Covenant ship many years later after he whent missing. This is not a coincidence! Weyland gave a big FU to his daughter though. What a guy. But she is dead anyway.

I think Weyland would take back his remark about Dave having no soul, because he himself lacked it :)

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

chli

ChestbursterMember935 XPAug-12-2018 8:41 AM

Michelle Johnston

You are absolutely amazing. You say you don’t want to end up in a discussion about the meaning of words and here you are, telling us how to interpret the meaning of “sacrifice”. And if we don’t agree with you, you will, like a spoiled girl, say that you won’t play any more?

Hard sacrifice is when you get nothing in return for yourself! NOTHING! You are not promised an afterlife of coconuts, virgins and pina coladas. Therefore, Janek does the ultimate sacrifice.

But the problem is that you see everything from a female point of view . . . (which, in essence, mean that you don't understand anything - about being a man).

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPAug-12-2018 9:21 AM

chli,

Janek traded his life for lives of his close ones on Earth. That is not a hard sacrifice. It is not a sacrifice in my mind at all. Besides he did what two other volunteered to do anyway. A sacrifice is something you would rather not do, only perhaps if you had some misfortune and felt perhaps compelled to. Janek traded his life for a definite outcome. It is the same thing if you take a calculated risk to get a bigger benefit. Janek obviously valued lives of some people back on Earth more than his. Recall his self musing song: if you can't be with the one you love, love the one ....I presume his true love interest is left back at home, and he gave his life to save her/him(?!). Even though he was okay to have a quick intense "practice" with Vickers(who wouldn't though) :)

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPAug-12-2018 9:27 AM

a sacrifice would be what David did to Charlie. Even though the latter never gave his consensus. He kind of did though in the eyes of David, when he said that he would do anything and everything. Well, David was just being fair: he only gave Charlie what he was ready to dish out to others, lol.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

chli

ChestbursterMember935 XPAug-12-2018 9:50 AM

BioDegradable

To live and survive is part of our nature. To give that up requires a lot - and you shouldn't give that up. You should use it to strive for something-something good. Janek had an option as did Miss Vickers, call it free will if you like. We all make our choices.

BioDegradable

FacehuggerMember151 XPAug-12-2018 10:11 AM

Right, I understand what you are saying, and I assure you I am not about to sacrifice anything really( actually, if I was that poor guy brought by elders for action, who were so eager and encouraged him with nice words as let your body become dirt...I would turn around and say, you know what, practice what you preach, it is only fair, right? Go on and drink that nice stuff yourself first. I will follow you, perhaps, okay? )

but sacrifice still requires you to give something valuable up. Basically, Janek had no choice, really. Vickers didn't show anything actually. She didn't like what Janek was doing at her expense, that's it. I am sorry, I am not convinced. Free will and choice is a bit different notion to sacrifice, even though both are required for a voluntary self scrifice. The crucial point is the payback. If the payback is not evident at all then it is a sacrifice. In any ither case I maintain it is not.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

ignorantGuy

ChestbursterMember899 XPAug-12-2018 10:23 AM

chli What are you talking about? What choice did Janek have? If he did not collide with that ship it would have reached Earth and wipe it out. Or do you expect somehow it would have been shut down (if that is even possible with human tech) in Earth's atmosphere and contaminate the air and waters? Probably humanity would have survived on colonies, but still.

Chris

EngineerAdmin21062 XPAug-12-2018 10:38 AM

Another great topic, not even done reading all 80+ replies yet. Upvoted!

chli

ChestbursterMember935 XPAug-12-2018 10:57 AM

ignorantGuy

I'm just saying that he had a choice - a very hard choice. The choice was to save himself or save humanity.

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPAug-13-2018 7:30 AM

"Are those old looking fellows from the seeding scene(I see that since it is taken for granted what they say"

I think BioDegradable we have to be careful how much we take as Canon from that scene as its deleted and RS did it for a reason, we can speculate about the Elders and the Dialog that was not even in the Deleted Scene but it was a case of these things could change...   And to a degree they have a bit.

RS had said he DID-NOT want to meet GOD in the first movie for the reason of deleting that Scene, this means the Engineers in Prometheus were not Gods, and it implies that who ever had been in the Tear Drop Ship, the Hierarchy above the Sacrificial Engineer are NOT the same Race of Engineers.

After Prometheus he confirmed Dr Shaw and David would meet these beings (beings from the World the Engineer came from).  And they would not be Benevolent. And that they are NOT Gods in the Traditional Sense.

With Alien Covenant i think we can Safely Assume the Hall of Heads Engineers are who those Elders from Prometheus was, but they MAY look different as far as Skin Tone/Eye Color and so may appear as Older Versions of those Planet 4 Engineers and not Older Looking Prometheus Engineers

I say this because RS refers to those on Planet 4 as the Original Engineers, and the Hall of Heads is the Apostles, Wise Men and Superior beings (Hierarchy).

"Can these fellows take credit for creating space out of nowhere?"

This is still a Mystery, but RS had proposed a Question, he said "if those Engineers are the Forerunners to Mankind, then what made it possible for Worlds to Sustain Life in the first place, where is the BIG GUY"

He went further to ask if the BIG BANG was a Accident, and that even Steven Hawkings  Questions if it was a Accident.

So it seems RS has some idea that there is some Being/Race /Force or Technology that allows at least for Baron World to be Manipulated to being in the Goldilocks Zone and then Terra-formed... but his comments could also indicate that there is a Explanation to how Stars are Formed and Worlds, that relates to something Designed/Planned and not Accidental.   Will we ever Explore Such Wonders?

I can try and answer some of those other Questions from your one post BioDegradable but using mainly clues we have and what Ridley Scott said, plus a few things i have to use my interpretation.

Clues we have as of NOW include Ridley Scotts comments, are that those beings on Planet 4 are Humanoids, they are connected to the Prometheus Engineers we cant be sure how CONNECTED they are as those Human looking Engineers are the Originals.  Which means a None-Original Engineer was Sacrificed, but this does not mean his Sacrifice was on Earth, his Sacrifice could have happened Anywhere, but its just how this CULTURE Seed Worlds... as RS said the Engineers are NOT a Race but a CIVILIZATION and just as there are many different versions of Man, why cant the same be said about the Engineers.

RS claims these Planet 4 Engineers, live for about 150 years and so they likely do AGE and Die, and we see they have Females and can Procreate (Bare Children) i wondered if the Sacrificial Route was to gain Females they had lost, but the losing ability to Procreate was the Original Idea, but this MAY no longer apply anymore, not if we take RS comments that those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals.  But this depends if they are the Originals prior to the Sacrificial Engineer, or are the Originals only to those LV-223 Bio-Mechanical Suit wearing guys in the rest of Prometheus.

These beings Sacrifice themselves because its the way they choose to Seed there Genetics, and the Ritual is very important to them and cleans their SOUL (what this means is open to Debate).

The LV-223 Outpost and its Purpose is a subject i find is contradicting if we look at this place being a Bio-Weapon Facility from Day ONE with the Purpose of Created a Bio-Weapon to Evolve Life into Xenomorph Related Organisms.

We cant tell for 100% sure if those Planet 4 Engineers are aware of what this place was for, if this place had a different use many thousands of years ago.  However IF we take the Advent Signal Origins as sent when David was near Planet 4 then Planet 4 is very close to LV-223 especially as far as this Advanced Space Faring Race.  So they should have had a good idea of what the Place was, and maybe what it had become.

I think in terms of Earth, i think we cant be 100% sure those Planet 4 Engineers know about Earth/Mankind but its likely they did especially IF Planet 4 is not too far from LV-223.

If they or indeed those who planed our Destruction were aware of the Outbreak... i think its Logical to Assume that those Engineers saw the LV-223 Outpost and its Experiments as very Dangerous and after the Outbreak they had Abandoned this Place and its use... kinda like Mankind ONE-DAY abandoning all Nuclear Weapons..   I think we can then assume those Engineers Abandoned Earth and left Mankind to its own course as we would Corrupt ourselves and so they would Abandon us and leave us to ROT, and in their HUBRIS i think those Engineers felt that with NO Further Knowledge/Visits from their kind, then Mankind WOULD NEVER Evolve past the Technological Level Mankind was at Thousands of Years ago.

Regarding the Engineers on Planet 4 and where they came from, its likely they came form the Elders, those Hall of Heads but as far as WHO created them, this is a Mystery at the moment.  It appears odd that this is the ONLY World they inhabit....  Ridley Scott confirmed that Engineers come and go to this place (Planet 4) and they will return to discover the Destruction Left behind by David and NO-DOUBT will be not happy about it.

I think a few things are still open for Debate and maybe to be shown.

*Its unlikely Earth was the only World they invested time in to Evolve Humanoid Races.

*Its unlikely Planet 4 and LV-223 are the only Worlds/Outposts these Engineers have in the Universe let alone the Galaxy.

*Its open to explore HOW World that are Habitable came to be, and show some Technology/Force is responsible and then how does this connect to our Engineers.

*Its open to Explore another Race/Machine/Force that are the Creators of the Engineers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPAug-13-2018 7:53 AM

"Is it because, the younger the specimen the better he is, for seeding purposes anyway"

It is Ritual to them, for some greater good, it depends which evolution of Prometheus we look at, the Original idea was these guys had lost the Ability to Procreate, this seems to NO-LONGER apply.  Ridley Scott looked at it as Many Ancient Sacrifices, in that a Chosen Sacrifice is used to then lead to some BENEFIT for the Greater Good of their Species, like appease God, to be granted a Better Harvest, but in context to Prometheus.. i would not say its to appease any God.   The whole Reason for Sacrifice is still quite open for debate...  Its deemed as Important to them but maybe not Necessary as far as for them to Create Life (Procreate).   The Sacrifice is considered a Noble Act for the Benefit of their kind or what ever Agenda they had.

The themes to point to the Pursuit of Perfection and so the Sacrificial Engineer was likely considered to be Perfection for their Species.  I think this is what Planet 4 is a Genetic Seeding Stock, where the most Perfect Specimens are Chosen to be Sacrificed/Collected by the Juggernauts and for them them become Immortalized because their DNA will lead to Life Coming from them.... and they also (i assume) have Monuments Erected in their Image in the Courtyard to further Immortalize the Sacrificial Host.  The Ritual seems Sacred to them and a Honor.   If we combine the reasons for what is PARADISE i think this then makes sense.

"I wonder, if David actually wiped out the planet because of how poorly he got treated by that engineer that he woke up"

I think he certainly was fascinated by the Engineers and when the Engineer touched him on the head, David seemed to feel he was accepted/appreciated by our Gods, when Mankind did not Appreciate him.  I would say David learned quite a bit about the Engineers Outlook on Mankind.

Once the Engineer ripped off his head, he saw that the Engineer actually either saw him as insignificant, saw him as a abomination and maybe saw him as a Good Reason to Destroy Mankind (due to the threat Space Faring/Advanced Human Culture could be).

David does not see WHY it matters to Dr Shaw to find out WHY we was created, and WHY they wanted to destroy us.  I think David maybe knew a little of why we was created, who knows but he certainly KNEW the intentions to destroy is and how we are insignificant to those Engineers.

David is FREE he is to a degree IMMORTAL and you have to consider that he would likely know that turning up to meet these Engineers could result in the same result as happened in Prometheus, he would way up the likely hood of these beings Welcoming him and Dr Shaw and giving Dr Shaw her Answers....  Dr Shaw has NOTHING if there is a Slight Chance she can get her Answers but then would Die, she would TAKE IT... 

She would rather DIE knowing, than eventually Die NOT KNOWING but David would want to Live, he sees those Answers she wants as not important...

We then move to the Crossing were we see David has grown Fond of Dr Shaw and her kindness, he also DISCOVERS more about the Engineers Ways.

For David  going to the Engineers World MAY have the Answers, asking those beings MAY grant Dr Shaw the Answers, but they may choose to not give any and Destroy her and David.   If these beings Created us and had a Reason for it, then David may consider that from their Monuments, Writings and other Works he could maybe get Dr Shaw some Answers and have HER/HIM Survive.   He has companionship with Dr Shaw and he would not want to see her DIE just to get Answers she may not get or Answers that she would not like.

So Destroying the Engineers means they Survive and from the Ruins of their City David could maybe get Dr Shaw some Answers, or at least Fabricate something to please her.  "or would she not mind that it hurts"

We can only Wonder what Dr Shaw would be like ONCE she finds out what David had done... so i think in Part David would LIE and give some Excuse that he had NO alternative to Destroy them as they poses a Treat.  I can only assume down the LINE Dr Shaw Discovers she had been lied to and then things went to POT.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPAug-13-2018 9:23 AM

Regarding the Sacrifice....

We can interpret this in many ways, and everyone has their own opinion, and basically Sacrifice has a number of Forms.

But the Broad Sense of Sacrifice is to GIVE UP/LOSE something to a Greater Benefit for someone else.

The Sacrificial Scene really depends on WHY and WHY was this Needed to what Benefit, is the Engineer doing it for NOTHING?  Murder yourself for Nothing is not Sacrifice, unless those giving up their Son to Die are making a Sacrifice.    The Elder Scene we could see the Elder looked on with a sense of LOSS he knew this Sacrifice would mean a Loss... but it is the GREATER good/cause that is most Important.

Until we KNOW exactly WHY the Engineers Seed Worlds, and Require the Sacrifice, we really wont have any SOLID reason to why this whole Ritual is taking place.

It was simple at the Origins but so was the Black Goo... when Jon Spaights and Ridley Scott sat down to put together the whole PLOT... it was that these beings had perused Perfection, likely Engineered themselves in a conquest for more LIFE but they had done so at a Great Cost.... they had become STERILE and so the Sacrificial Scene was Necessary for the Future of their Species or some other Important Agenda.

The Elder looked on as though he knew the Death of that Young Engineer was something they would liked to have not resort to, but it was something they NEEDED to do (the reasons we can debate)  The Engineer looked on with some sadness, knowing this was the END for him...but he also carried on as it was his DUTY he knew that his Action was Needed for a Greater Cause than his own LIFE.

There whole Ritual Sacrifice has a Religious/Faith and Cultural Importance, but Originally it was hinted that there was a GREAT reason for doing this. With Alien Covenant we get the clues that they maybe DID-NOT need this to Procreate themselves, and the Whole Sacrificial Route as far as Prometheus appeared to be something that invests a lot of time.

Surely they could have done what the COVENANT had done and set off in groups of Hundreds to Far Off Worlds to START ANEW and in Thousands of Years those Hundreds would become Many.

So a lot comes back to WHY they choose the Sacrificial Route and a lot could come from what ever Religion/Ritual based Culture they have.

The Advent suggests these Engineers chose Sacrifice to Cleanse their SOULS we maybe could ask how this applies and how Literal this is and a lot i guess comes down to what is a SOUL in context to the Franchise.

We also have to consider are these Engineers looking WAY WAY into the Future...    If they want to Create Life on other Worlds we have to ask WHY

Do they only want to Create Humanoids AND a few Livestock to Live Off?  Why could they not do a NOAHS Ark and set off with Animals that are Necessary to their Needs and then take Hundreds of Engineers to and Start Fresh on a World.

Do they go to Worlds that have Organisms, do they deem it Necessary to Destroy some of these so they can Seed Humanoids?

Or are they THINKING about Long term where a Baron World Needs a Sacrifice in order to Kick Start Advanced Life..  So IF this Sacrificial Scene was on Earth, it was something set in course Millions and Millions of years ago, even over Billion where via the Sacrifice the Engineers Body and Mutagen either become the Building Blocks of Life or the Catalyst to Evolve Basic Life.

So NO Sacrifice and Earth would have but Bacteria etc.

But this is some LONG road to a End Product, and its HOW does this End Product Benefit those Engineers. Unless its their Duty to Seed Life Across the Galaxy on Many Worlds where the Sacrificial Route is the START of a Long Process where the Fruits of this Sacrifice take Millions and Millions of years to Bare.

So my point is before looking in context of Sacrifice of the Engineer, i think it depends on WHY what is the Purpose and End Goal of this.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1305 XPAug-13-2018 4:41 PM

"I'm just saying that he had a choice - a very hard choice. The choice was to save himself or save humanity."

 

Indeed!

Not knowing the FTL speed of a Juggernaut would cause me pause.

Earth is 39ly from LV223....Took the Prometheus 2 years to reach it....Fast...(think the Sulaco could do it in 2 weeks?)

For all Janek new...the Juggernaut might have taken 39 years to reach Earth!

He could have taken his chances that the Prometheus was faster.......

20 years later....

"Sooo..Captain Janek...Just where is this alien spaceship full of death?!"

Janek "I'm telling you....anyday!! Just keep watching the skies!"

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPAug-13-2018 11:50 PM

I forgot to add with Sacrifice as Michelle had pointed out before we have Consensual and Non-Consensual

Consensual as in the one making the Sacrifice either is willing or understands that the needs out way the loss.  Janek was making a Willing Sacrifice as he could have took his chances to go to Earth and HOPE he can contact Earth before the Juggernaught Arrives.

He had NO Idea if the Ship would Stop the Juggernaught apart from Burning the Ion Engineers in Atmosphere would turn the Ship into a Bullet.  He had no Idea of what Shield or how Tough the Juggernaught was, but he was prepared to take the risk of Destroying the Prometheus and himself rather than the risk that doing nothing would mean the Engineer and his Pay-Load would get to Earth.

The Engineer Sacrifice was kind of Consensual, in that he realized it was for the greater good or/and within the ways of their Rituals so this would be just as a Person would give up their Life in a Act of War/Terrorism.

But we do have Non-Consensual Sacrifices such as some Cults in the past that would take Virgins and Sacrifice them to the Gods, yet these Virgins were not happy to Partake in this Sacrifice..  The same applies to the Sacrifice of Animals as its not like a Lamb Decides they want to be killed for the greater good.

Who knows what would be revealed as WHY we was created or the Engineers, it could be that we are to have become Sacrificed, in which we are maybe considered as insignificant to them or their Ways/Rituals as a Lamb is to us.

A Lamb is a usual Sacrifice because to some Religions its represents Pureness.  Just the same as how some Cults would Sacrifice Virgins.  If the Engineers believe that Sacrifice Cleans the Soul, then it could be that the Younger Engineers are Sacrificed just as if they was Pure/Virgin as well as maybe Perfect.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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