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Ridley Scott on the problem with Sci-fi

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I.Raptus

PraetorianStaff2414 XPApr-21-2018 6:23 PM

Just stumbled across this article about the recent slump in Sci-fi releases, including Alien:Covenant. 

In the article Ridley Scott was quoted saying "One of the problems with science fiction," said Ridley Scott back in 2012 ahead of the release of Prometheus, "is the fact that everything is used up. Every type of spacesuit, every type of spacecraft is vaguely familiar. The corridors are similar, the planets are similar. So what you try to do is lean more heavily on the story and the characters."

What's gone wrong with Sci-fi on Esquire

 

This comment from Scott seems at odd's to a lot of the criticism around both Covenant and Prometheus; notably poorly developed 2 dimensional characters. The most robust character we've had so far in Scott's prequels, Elizabeth Shaw, was quickly and savagely written out for Covenant and replaced with the doe-eyed-suddenly-turned-warrior Daniels. While flawed, Shaw at least had some degree of humility and relatable motives.

For what its worth, personally I think the problem with Sci-fi is how safe the movies have become. Scott's comments about the familiarity of it all, is because modern Sci-fi films are clones of previously successful premises. Gone are the visionary grand scale space opera's of the likes of Authors Frank Herbert, Alister Reynolds and Isaac Asimov to name just a few. There is little risk. 

Prometheus was on right track, bringing something new and fresh to the Alien franchise, steering it in a new direction that didn't necessarily have to focus solely on the Xenomorph. The Engineer's were grand, and the scale of their reach could have been epic. 

But this has since been stifled and cut-down by Alien: Covenant's focus on David and his part in the genesis of the Xenomorph. A large part of the Alien lore was the ambiguous and ancient endless mystery of the origins of the Xenomorph. This has effectively been diminished to just an act of rebellion and revenge by a self-aware Synthetic with a chip on his shoulder.  

Why? Because the Engineers and Shaw's agenda to unravel humanity's genesis was too risky a premise, whereas the tried and true (safe) egg->facehugger->chestburster->Xenomorph would get bums on seat.

But, it didn't.  

145 Responses to Ridley Scott on the problem with Sci-fi

BigDave

DeaconMember10181 XPMay-25-2018 4:37 PM

"sorry to disagree with you, but such a twist would undermine the whole anti-corporate message of the series"

I can see what you mean... but i think the Prequel Intention was to add some MEAT to the Alien Franchise...  Lets take a look at the Franchise.

Only the FIRST movie showed us the Space Jockey and Egg Cargo, this was the Prime Reason for the Prequels to ANSWER the reasons and connection between the Xenomorph Cargo and Space Jockey.  So here is a break down of the Franchise....

*Xenomorphs, Eggs, Face Huggers...   Been there Done that got the T-Shirt.

*Space Jockey and his Race/Agenda and Connection with those Eggs...  Never Covered and in Part the Reason for the Prequels.

*Ripley and Co.... Done just as much as the Xenomorph, where she always seems to Survive/Resurrected.

*Marines/Military...  Done but always room to explore the Marines and Company Security in other movies. (Partly Covered in other Movies).

*The Weyland-Yutani Company... what else is this company responsible for, When/Why did they Merge and so a bit of History Expansion and Agenda... and the Prequels Began to cover this aspect to a degree.

*Synthetics always a supporting part of the Franchise, but always playing one of the Main Characters to the Plot...  and Alien Resurrection reveals a Future where Synthetics start to Create their own Synthetics and so Synthetics/AI does in Future become Rebellious and Sentient.  Something the Prequels Began to explore.

*Special Order 937 and the Companies continuous Agenda to obtain the Specimen, despite the risks to Humanity... Why and How Much did they know prior to 2122 and why is it that they pursue this Organism and using Fellow Humans as Pawns.... Mankind Can be wicked... but it does leave it open to be tied into AI.

So there was a lot that could be expanded on... rather than Xenomorphs, Marines and Heroines...   Which is where the Creation Plot and Sub-Creation and Hubris Philosophy on Creation becoming Sentient and Out of Control played a Part in the Prequels.. a Plot that Tackles and Takes on 3 Layers...   Humans and Our Creators.. and Our Creation. 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10181 XPMay-25-2018 5:17 PM

This leads us to the PROBLEM we have now...

The Xenomorph had been done over and over and as Ridley Scott said before some Movies Reduced the Xenomorph to not only being cooked, but like a Pig Spit Roasted with a Apple in its Mouth.   The Ripley Saga has been Told,  we could continue with Alien 5 but how do we explain a Ripley 8 Clone with Xenomorph DNA looking like a Woman at least in her 50's.  I had a idea to Tackle This....     So do we do a Ripley Prequel but how do we introduce the Xenomorph?

So the Prequel Route to Answer the Space Jockey and Eggs was the way to go Forwards... the Plot as far as the Engineers/Space Jockey Creation Mythos and Philosophical Themes of Creator/Creation, Father/Son Rebellion was something Ridley Scott Felt was interesting with the Prequels... something FRESH that could be applied to our Engineers... rather than them being a Unconnected Alien Race but in Hindsight this was maybe something that Alienated some of the Fanbase..   Ridley Scott also felt these Philosophical/Creation Themes can carry on through the Tale of Synthetics and from Davids POV... something again that some Fans Felt was not what a ALIEN Prequel should be about.

For some Fans a Alien Prequel should be about just that.. Alien Xenomorph, How/When and Why and then how it connected to the Space Jockey. Which Alien Engineers was attempting to do, but also add the Philosophy to it....  FOX/Ridley Scott came to agreement that actually the Xenomorph has been done over and over, the Space Jockey Arc and Agenda is more interesting and FRESH and with a Direct Prequel as Lindeloff said.. you know where its going to end and all you are doing is connecting the Dots.

So Prometheus was offered as a Go-Between... it was like saying we have this Movie that will attempt to Connect the Xenomorph in a Ambiguous way and then allow them to go off on a different Tangent away from ALIEN...

Prometheus 2 on wards  <=== PROMETHEUS ===> Alien on wards.

But the Problem was Prometheus did not give the Fanbase enough Answers or Anything to please them and leave them going...

"so thats who created the Xenomorph, i really like that idea i wonder what other Horrors they had been up to, i wonder what their Homeworld would be like etc"

Instead for some Fans it was "so how does this connect to Alien?, they cant tease us that Xenomorph Mural and only give us Stupid Space Cobras and a Alien Type Organism that just Chest Bursts and does nothing else...  Oh and WTF with that Zombie Dude and Angry Bald Space Smurf killing the Crew.... Man i hoped those Worm-Shark things was more like a Face Hugger, Why did they have Acid Blood for"

This could have been avoided by giving these Fans a Little More... so that they get some what of a FIX, and Answers but retain some Mystery and Maybe Engage them to the Sequel to see if they get any more clues and also look forwards to seeing more about these Engineers.

But its a case of FOX thinking that maybe they need to not Steer from ALIEN but actually directly link to it and give the fans Xenomorphs and Eggs etc... and eventually lead to the Space Jockey event... The way this Plot was changed so that they had to bring in Human Fodder, and bring the Engineer Homeworld Closer... and Wipe all that Prometheus 2 could have set up... under the Carpet to make Room for HOW/WHEN/WHY the Xenomorph was created.. while then throwing the Curve-ball Philosophical fitting David Created it... was something that Further Alienated the Fans...  the Xenomorph was reduced to barely much screen time and not handled as well as it SHOULD have been.

You could TELL Ridley Scott was not maybe pleased with the route taken.. his "they want $£%^£$^ Aliens i will give them $"£%£$^ Aliens" comment and the "i was head of the curve/game"

Does seem to show that the routes taken were not what RS intended.. its why some speculate he made David the Creator as a Up-Yours to Fans who was not interested in his Prometheus Plot.

A lot of Fans Felt that a ALIEN Prequel should be about the Xenomorph... when Prometheus was to be a loose prequel.. its why the name was changed to Prometheus instead of being a Alien: Origins, Alien:Genesis the ALIEN was taken away so that this movie sets itself as a Go-Between so we eventually would have..

Engineers 1,2,3 etc <=== PROMETHEUS ===> Alien 1,2,3,4 etc

They are in a Pickle Now that could have been Avoided if they Stuck to a different Sequel or if Prometheus had been a bit more ALIEN in the first place.

But for FOX i guess they felt without the Answers and Xenomorphs there is a potential a Prometheus 2 would not draw at the Box Office and would receive more criticism from Fans expecting a sequel would give more Xenomorph and Space Jockey Answers.

So the idea with the Franchise Plans... was that it does not have to be just about the Xenomorph! But alas they caved into what they felt more Fans would want.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Batchpool

FacehuggerMember357 XPMay-25-2018 5:43 PM

I think both Prometheus and AC do suffer from fundamental flaws depending on personal perspectives. Personal perspectives being my main point here. So I would not expect anyone to fully agree with me, but rather find something that resonates with my views.

I have watched both Prometheus and AC more than once from a variety of perspectives, and I have observed different movies depending on the context of my perspectives.

I have watched Prometheus as a stand alone movie. Within this context I enjoyed it. I felt that is was a good change to introduce some fresh ideas into it including the Engineers. So I can imagine for anyone not familiar with the Alien franchise it would have been a new experience. But for someone like myself who is familiar with the franchise when viewing Prometheus as a prequel, rather than just a stand alone movie, the problem is that I have ac***ulated some baggage and expectations from the previous movies, and because of this personal bias, I found myself trying to join the dots to see how it fitted in with Alien.

I’ve already aired my gripes about Prometheus and AC to some extent, with my main complaint being how I felt those who already know the Alien franchise could have felt betrayed at the lack of the xenomorph, and how I feel marketing played its part in this. However contentious those views may appear, I still enjoyed both Prometheus and AC.

On a personal note, I did not mind the absence of the xenomorph in Prometheus, but I can see why others did mind because there were expectations there that had been created by the Alien franchise. The absence of such expectations created some harsh criticism.

By the end of Prometheus, a new storyline has been created and what we have is Shaw as a sole human survivor, flying off into unknown space with a dubious decapitated droid in search of an Alien race known as Engineers, with the Engineers appearing to be the enemy of mankind since it looks like they wanted to destroy humans. Also, by the end of the movie we have invested time in Shaw’s character.

 

Then along comes AC.

 

I have watched AC as a stand alone movie. Within this context I enjoyed it. I felt that is was a good change to introduce some fresh ideas into it including the Engineers. So I can imagine for anyone not familiar with the Alien franchise it would have been a new experience. But for someone like myself who is familiar with the franchise when viewing AC as a sequel/prequel, rather than just a stand alone movie, the problem is that I have ac***ulated some baggage and expectations from the previous movies.

Does this sound familiar?

 

To watch AC as a stand alone movie, with no back knowledge of Prometheus, ‘The Crossing’ becomes completely redundant. Also, from this viewpoint does it prove that the whole Alien formula is dead and not just the beast? I am more tempted to lean towards thinking that the Alien formula is what is over cooking the beast because wider audience expectation has turned the beast into a blasé sideshow with no real surprises.

Shaw's death was horrible and meaningless,

The decision to kill Shaw, I would compare to someone coming up with the bright idea of giving a cat a bath, to discover that it’s like trying to oil the individual teeth of a moving chainsaw. It’s a bad idea that’s painful to watch and will not end well.

Just like Prometheus, the audience went in to watch AC with expectations. But what happened? We get a movie where Shaw is dead. David is the enemy, and could it be argued that audience sympathy has moved towards the Engineers because of what David did to them? Maybe a tad of consistency would help.

Overall, I am left wondering if Shaw’s death proved that the beast is cooked ?

I feel that the route RS has taken has created a rod for his own back. What has repeatedly happened is that audience expectation, created from prior investment in characters, re-worked format and character death predictability is what has cooked the beast for RS. I don’t think the beast would be cooked for any other director, because an audience would not really know what to expect. But what I think is the most telling problem is that both Prometheus and AC ( imo anyhow) have been made to work as stand alone movies.

BigDave

DeaconMember10181 XPMay-25-2018 6:35 PM

I feel AC was a sequel, i dont see it as a Stand Alone but thats just how i see it, as it seems its a Direct Prequel Route to Eventually Reach why the  Beast was Created, When and Why... How and by Whom.

Was the Beast Cooked?  to a degree YES.. as Ridley Scott said there is only so much Snarling and Chest Pulling you can do...  But he contradicts himself during the Promotion for Alien Covenant... by saying it has to be about HIM (Xenomorph) but you have to EVOLVE Him, and introduce something Fresh.  So we can see with Alien Covenant the Xenomorph appears Fresh to a degree.. it lacks the Bio-Mechanical Atheistic of the Original but i think this is where the Set-Up is because it can be EVOLVED to become Bio-Mechanical, as Ridley Scott had said.. the purpose of Alien Covenant was to find out Who and Why would someone make such a Horrific Creature, that Felt like a Weapon and it was Bio-Mechanical and Alien Covenant would BEGIN to answer those Questions.

The Beast is not Quite Cooked.. but it has to be handled in a Very Good way and with Care, you have to maybe bring something Fresh to it, but also you have to be careful how much you show it and how you show it.

Sadly Alien Covenant it was a Rush Job.... the constraints of the Running Time and Plot, meant the Xenomorph had to be Forced, and it was given little Justice to HOW it could/should have been Handled... In Hindsight we should have had ONE Xenomorph and more time with it on the Covenant Ship... so what we had was basically like a Rushed Version of Alien 3 and then a Rushed Version of Alien.

Again in Hindsight... Prometheus should have incorporated a little more from Alien Engineers.   The BIG Question we could be asking is at the Time of Working on Alien Engineers to its Evolution to Prometheus did RS/FOX Have/Know what the Xenomorph Origin was and HOW the Space Jockey event happened....  They did not need to SHOW these.. but surely if they HAD the Answers so they can focus the clues around them, then maybe we could have had some consistency.

It appeared the Original Idea would indeed had been the Engineers had encountered a Organism related to the Xenomorph, and then Experimented on this... which One Reason would have been to Create/Perfect the Ultimate Human Pest Control.   These Experiments Back Fired and Leads to the Space Jockey event....

Either was a Few Hundred Years Prior to the Outbreak (could mean those Experiments were conducted on the Space Jockey Cargo) or a Few Hundred Years Post the Outbreak (could mean those Experiments lead to the Xenomorph).

But ALAS not enough clues to this END was shown... and they have now U-Turned this.  But it can be FIXED!

We have to Wonder what was the Mural For? 

Surely those Engineers held the Organism in High Regard and Worship, for some Reason....... if these are Genetic Engineers, then maybe it presented them with something they saw as more PERFECT!

THUS... its open for some other Race related to the Engineers or the Engineers who know of the LV-223 Engineers Experiments and Attempts to Create Perfection with the Mural Organism... to come and Discover Davids Xenomorph.. see the Potential in his Creation from the Engineers Failed Creation... and also see David as a more Perfect Creation than Humans were.....  And then Seek to Perfect Davids Creation, maybe using David (or another Synthetic) as the Perfect Amalgamation.

Thus David Perfects Engineers Work... Created Proto-Morph and Engineers return and take Davids Creation and PERFECT it to the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph... but at a Great Hubris... or have David Redeem himself by Sacrificial Sabotage.   This would make David merely the MIDDLE-MAN in the Xenomorph Origin.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPMay-25-2018 11:17 PM

BigDave

Thanks for your reply.

ignorantGuy

Just for completeness there was a time in Ridleys mind, and its how I view the prequels, that the only one that is valid in terms of continuity is A L I E N.

The idea that what was behind the rerouting of the Nostromo was a knowing artificial intelligence represented by mother is a metaphor for corporate life. Once you introduce a hierarchy the higher up the food chain the more cold calculating and dispensable the front line can be. 

In many ways the enigmatic performance of "Bishop", real or robot, in A 3 is the perfect symbol of this and the bigger question what is life. 

If in Prometheus 2 Peter Weyland consciousness had made an appearance and the David/Elizabeth relationship included the dynamic of David having down loaded her memories to in the mind visor we then add on the reveal that David is connected to the main frame and is transmitting back to Mother something which is riffed in Advent, and consciousness and memory has its own journey. This a point that is covered and implied in Weylands holographic speech  to the Prometheus crew.

All of this is kickstarted by Weylands quest for immortality and is therefore thematically consistent, memory and experience is its own thread which can be used and denied by A I for much longer time periods.

One of the potential transcendent points in a Prometheus story is for David to switch his connections off and become an independent and unique individual rather than the multiple presentations (Joi like) where Charlie and Peter Weyland can be "created for Shaw". Again this use of holographic imagery could be built on the technology we saw used in Prometheus so its not a plot device but thematic. Indeed the entire history of the Engineers could be played out by David triggering their holographic library when they reach Paradise and remember this is a Paradise which would propel the notion that life is a mechanical construct and that the soul is a fabrication. In Prometheus 3 this would turn out be part of the Engineers hubris. As late as September 2015 Ridley was describing the hierarchy as Babouska Doll like, the Engineers created us who created them, that would be for Prometheus 3 and a very different David and Shaw.  

So no Walmart run by robots would not be the thing. The very layered story would be dealing with the much bigger issue of what is existence and reminding the audience that something we view as a robot could become more human than some humans and that some organisations look more like a soulless lifeless entity run by robots where everything is dispensable than a real loving organisation with values and ethos and the space seeders themselves made the same mistake, which is what lead to Paradise Lost. 

What this story is really dealing with is what is humanity. 

Is it flesh and blood and the ability to procreate which the Alien lifecycle is a horrible counterfeit of, created out of the hubris that the Engineers believed life was an Engineered construct whether biological or mechanical in outcome. 

Is it intelligence which is driven by higher motives of collectiveness and love and sacrifice for others represented in the opening scene of Prometheus.

Is it also a unique personality affected by experience which leads to evolution and an eternal soul which lives beyond the body and (is a return to the creative act) and what Prometheus should have been pondering, which is more tantalising, can we create that body so that we can live on. David's ultimate question should have been does he live on with Shaw in the physical world and change her or should he die and live on beyond the physical world. Weyland showed him in Prometheus that there is nothing in the desert, in Prometheus 2 he would recognise the Engineers have only a part of the truth and Prometheus 3 would provide the answers.   

Thats me done but the simple point is David and Shaw could have carried this story and because its science fiction Weyland, Mother, Charlie, the Juggernauts and the Tear drop ship could all have been woven into it BUT not the "dragons and all that ****".

ignorantGuy

ChestbursterMember896 XPMay-26-2018 12:18 AM

@Michelle Johnston I could only wish that only for a second that what you have written would have been in someone from the production team's of AC mind. But for me it seems that everyone was very happy to leave the "stupid things" and focus on creating monsters.

dk

TrilobiteMember8212 XPMay-26-2018 2:00 AM

To the OP and RS- if that is the case, put out one more movie and be done- just make a decent movie with a good story and memorable characters. It could even be about just humans (WY) since we have seen the beasts and androids. I will make my own conclusions and enjoy this forum members' picking it apart like starving vultures. 

ali81

NeomorphMember1823 XPMay-26-2018 2:51 AM

im sure iv already said my piece on this but ill have another bash for ****s n giggles. i get what RS is saying about the issues with sci-fi but its not just sci-fi that has problems evolving and keeping a genre fresh. but where this prequel series is concerned specifically, none of these issues are the root problem. the problem was RS's comments way way back at the beginning. he stated he was making an alien prequel series. pretty straight forward so now all the alien fans r juicing themselves. the father of the franchise is back woohoo. then he stated he was making a stand alone series which would tie into alien at the end. TOO LATE..... all we heard was 'alien prequel'. we got Prometheus and it got roasted because..... not enough aliens. so from the backlash, im guessing the studio step in and convince (or force) RS to go a more safe route. now we get, and only my opinion, a movie that has nothing really to do with alien. its not an alien film. its a film about a mental synthetic craving galactic domination and there are some monsters in it. all because we expected an alien prequel trilogy and when u say 'im doing an alien prequel trilogy' all people hear is 'there will be aliens'. Prometheus imo fell victim to his comments as it was viewed with people looking for immediate tie ins to alien. 'no answers' 'not enough aliens' without the foresight to see that its the first movie, u don't get answers in the first one and alien hasn't happened yet duh. we also know the ending which doesn't help. AC was a sequel yes, but we got probably 40% of what RS wanted to do with it. hey **** happens. now the question is can he save it? if anyone can RS can

BigDave

DeaconMember10181 XPMay-26-2018 7:15 AM

@Michelle Johnston

I agree with your last post, and i have on a number of occasions discussed the same or similar.   There was some Good Philosophical themes that could have been explored and the whole PLOT was very open to how it could have gone.  I could think of many ways a sequel could have Dealt with Dr Shaw and David... many ways and each different way could offer something interesting... but would distance itself a little from ALIEN.

If i just Tackle Dr Shaw....

*She does not really have a Family Anymore.. her Fiancee is Dead, they had both worked on a lot of archeological digs discovering clues that indicate Mankind had been Visited by Giant Alien Beings from out of Space who had played a Great Part in our Evolution.  While these Clues hint the Tales of Gods in various Ancient Mankind could INDEED have a Basis... while these Findings May Somewhat Contradict her Biblical Faith they could Certainly Prove that Darwinism is NOT correct and gives Credence that indeed Beings had interacted with Mankind who we preserved as Gods.  And so if their FINDINGS point to these beings who we interpreted as Gods, and IF these beings are responsible for Creating us, then it brings her a Step Closer to MEETING our MAKERS which brings her closer to Legitimizing her Faith than how far from the Truth her Faith would be if Darwinism was proven Correct and thus there is NOTHING!

*So the Quest to Discover our Origins and the Horrors she discovered would have plagued her mind... she is still clutching at Straws that there has to be SOMETHING greater than the Engineers, Who Created them because so far what she has discovered is Further from any Truth or Expectations she had... Especially the Anticipation after Discovering that INDEED LV-223 had Beings Related to Humans.  She NOW wants ANSWERS to why these beings Created us and why they then wanted to Destroy us.  Hoping that at some point their was a Special Place/Reason for our Creation and maybe hoping that their is a Higher Power above the Engineers thus maybe giving her HOPE that her FAITH is not so far from the Truth.

*With NOTHING to loose she is off to find these GODS and get her Answers even if attempting to do so will YIELD no Results but just Death... there is NOTHING left for her NOW.   And Discovering that there is NO answers or answers that are beyond what she hoped for, even if she unveils we are not SPECIAL and that the GODS are Wicked, or were and maybe No More.. or they remain but are FAR from what Dr Shaw had wished and the Truth about these beings is even Worse/Horrific than what she discovered in PROMETHEUS.

This could Change Dr Shaw.. it could Break Her... how would she Handle the TRUTH and then what is their to LIVE for? Revenge? Nothing?

*There remains ONE other thing that Dr Shaw could never HAVE something that must deeply effect her... this was to Bare Children, She could not Create Life and this is something that Effected her Deeply... IF she could have Created Life... then she would have SOMETHING to live for, something to allow her to Return Home instead of her Journey for Answers.

HERE.... is one of the Biggest Things that could have been Explored... Dr Shaw could not Create... but the Black Goo Proved otherwise.. only it was a Creation that was a Abomination.   I felt this was something to be Explored.... Because IF Dr Shaw found out the Truth and then she had NOTHING... if David or a Engineer had a way they could offer Dr Shaw the Chance to CREATE Life... and by that Repair/Fix her Defective Reproductive Organs then this would have given Dr Shaw something to HOLD on to...  THIS is a Plot that would have been very interesting to Explore... its what ideas i had for the Future with Prometheus Sequels.....  

But this is NOT Alien.... it could be if David with Engineer Technology or a Surviving Engineer OFFERED Dr Shaw this GIFT to Create Life, to then be able to Give Birth.... only  for then David/Engineer to then USE her Offspring for their own TWISTED Agenda, revealing from this maybe the TRUE Sinister Agenda for the Creation of Mankind.

THIS kind of Plot could allow and explain the reasons for Creation, and also HOW the Xenomorph was Created Prior.  It appears Alien Covenant to some degree may have covered this to a small degree.

This Plot would also not be the only ONE, as we discover more about the Engineers, we discover the Pattern of Creation, Sub-Creation through a Arc of David wishing to be his own GOD/Creator and using Dr Shaw and Engineers to this END... again something i felt a sequel would cover... and what i would have covered too... and indeed something that to a degree Alien Covenant had also followed..

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10181 XPMay-26-2018 8:01 AM

@ali81

Certainly at first when rumors and then information on the Production of a Prequel began, it was a Prequel that was marketed as being a Prequel that would show us Xenomorphs and how they was Created and Why, and also give more clues to the Space Jockey... A Few Drafts that lead to Alien Engineers was born..

Alien Engineers does offer Xenomorphs, Eggs and the like but it also Contradicts ALIEN so it has some Major Flaws.....  But its a bit Ambiguous, to a degree that the Signal at the END does-not match that in ALIEN and then in future Alien movies how do they miss the PYRAMIDS and Wreckage of the MAGELLAN... if this was a Literal Prequel it too could be interpreted as the Space Jockey/Derelict not being there for THOUSANDS of years too.

But this could be PASSED off as the event happens on a Different Part of LV-426 rather than the Site of the Ancient Derelict.  As a way to overcome such In-continuity Flaws....   HOWEVER there is one thing people overlook with Alien Engineers, and the other draft Prior... the events of the MAGELLAN arriving at LV-426 are 50 years after the event of ALIEN unless this is a Misprint/Error by Jon Spaights in TWO Drafts.

"HOLLOWAY
Tell me that’s a natural formation.
(he grins)
Undeniable proof of alien
civilization. You were here on this
day, thirty-one December, year of
our Lord 2172. History will
remember your names."

So the ORIGINAL Prequel Idea maybe was actually not a Straight Prequel after all... but a event set after the Events of ALIEN, a Event that would set up the Company wishing to investigate... but it contradicts Hadleys Hope which would have been set up on LV-426 some 15 years prior to Alien Engineers...  and so again the 2172 date could be a Error?

But indeed back to your comment ali81 it was reported Ridley Scott was working on a ALIEN Prequel... and Production had got underway, just as Lindeloff was brought in to Re-Write Spaights work to get us to PROMETHEUS which then became a LOOSE Prequel with less about the ALIEN and no Xenomorphs... apart from the Trilobite/Deacon Life Cycle, the Hammerpedes and Fifield... which never gave Fans really any Xenomorph like Monster or Attacks...

I think it WAS-NOT Marketed enough as a None-Literal Prequel and ALIEN movie... not to the casual Fan, or General Public.. but only those who followed every interview and comments that Ridley Scott was making.

I think the Problem is that any ALIEN movie will always be associated with the Xenomorph and Eggs and even by having PROMETHEUS not carry the ALIEN name...  due to it exploring the Space Jockey Race, involving the Weyland Company and by Virtue a ALIEN Franchise Movie... for some fans it was expected to have ANSWERS and more CONNECTIONS.

The Franchise encompassed more than Ripley and Eggs and Xenomorph, we had the Space Jockey its Race/History and Agenda and what had they been involved in apart from Xenomorphs... we had the Weyland Company its History/Merger and Agenda and what had they been involved in apart from trying to obtain Xenomorphs

These are things that RS tried to expand upon, rather than a movie that heavily invests into showing Xenomorphs, and maybe keeping the Mystery a bit Ambiguous...  This PROVED to be a Error a bit in Hindsight.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPMay-28-2018 8:15 AM

Capt Torgo

Thank you for your very generous remarks.

I have been turning over the idea of writing a follow up to Prometheus and posting it to my blog. Its probably because Prometheus is such a  perfect set up movie I found the ideas came rapidly.

I have sketched it out roughly and will write it this winter when I live in New Zealand which would be particularly appropriate. I am going to reposition some of Prometheus from the moment Ellie survives the Juggernaut crash.

Whilst it will be in written form I will ensure that it observes the financial laws of film making in terms of content so for instance some of the settings are perfectly capable of being sets. This is to prove to myself that a wonderful visionary film could have been made. 

The characters that appear in Prometheus and their development into the next movie will aim to be consistent with Prometheus but a departure from Covenant. The Engineers, from the hieroglyphs  to the wakened Engineer whose Juggernaut is attacked by Janek and all points in between will be made sense of. One thing I can say is Elizabeth and her faith will be tested to the limits. It will be fun to try writing and I can see me doing research to give it authenticity. Nevertheless it is science fiction and I have no idea how a Juggernaut is powered !!    

ignorantGuy

ChestbursterMember896 XPMay-28-2018 8:39 AM

@Michelle Johnston Will look forward to reading it. I know that is an exercise for your "mental health" but maybe someone who can do something about it will also Read it. #JusticeForEllie

Ps: If you want to have roman statues in it could you described them as being painted?

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPMay-29-2018 9:38 AM

@ignorantGuy

Thanks, your point about the Roman Statues is an interesting one. One of the themes of A L I E N was the otherworldliness of the derelict and its pilot. One of the themes of Prometheus was we are them and they are us. With Covenant the latter held sway so David appeared to pilot the Juggernaut to something a little like the Vatican City. 

The two areas I am interested in pursuing are:-

1) The Iconography represented by the Teardrop ship mysterious, deceptively simple enigmatic.

2) A technology which triggers highly sophisticated technical information (star charts/historical recorded activity) and in the case of the green electrostatic-ally charged paste contains codes which enable the Engineers know how to be tapped.

It seems to me the Engineers of "LV223", as Carlo said, represent Paradise Lost. They acquired unauthorised knowledge which was there undoing but would not their home world contain the undiluted and un tarnished vision of what we glimpse on "LV223".  

So the question is if Prometheus offers, glimpses and hints how would the source look.

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1535 XPMay-30-2018 7:40 AM

IgnorantGuy

The thing is that Daniels was not well-written so if she is not written better in the next movie if she is in it at all then why should I care? Shaw's death was what ever because I did not like her in Prometheus so I am not very sorry about that. Maybe they could have had her in a small role in Covenant other than a corpse but have her better written as a character, that could have worked but anyways. I agree that Fassbender was kind of meh in Covenant, he was too evil but I liked his acting in Prometheus and I would rather have it that he stayed like that in Covenant but what is done is done. David was interesting because of the differences between him and Walter but it would have been a disaster with just David. What made me disappointed is that there was too much focus on David which is one of the reasons why the movie does not work for me.

"Ps: If you want to have roman statues in it could you described them as being painted?"

I know that the question was not for me but I got an answer: it depends on what you associate the color with and want the statues to look like. For example green is like color of grass (it could be the color of a crystal or w..d), blue is for blueberries and so on. Brown is for… a rotten potato or something else. :D

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1535 XPMay-30-2018 7:41 AM

BigDave

"… and so FOX Assumed, that bringing the Xenomorph Origins back and having Xenomorphs would make a Movie that would attract more Box Office..."

Which indicates to me that they never understood the criticism of the movie. I read at a lot of pages that the characters were the problem not the lack of the Xeno. Personally the biggest problem with Prometheus was the characters, not the lack of Xenos and also I found the new monsters to be interesting, and the black goo also but then it was handled kind of strangely in Alien Covenant if there are not different kinds of goo. The goo in Prometheus mutated things while it destroyed things in AC. It could be bad writing that is behind these inconsistencies.

"A First Prequel that offers a Mixture of Alien Engineers and Prometheus with some Xenomorph like Monsters and more Clues to the Xenomorph and Space Jockey Event..... would have Satisfied those who had problems with Prometheus…"

Plus better characters, the story and characters are those that make me decide if I like the movie or not and also the message in it.

"So the LV-223 Murals and Dead Engineers, and Dr Shaw are maybe now our NEW Mystery as we get Spoon Fed the Space Jockey Questions."

I hope that is not true. The SJ is a mystery and Alien set that up well and also it is an interesting movie with interesting characters. Prometheus was too vague, had too many disappointing characters, and the murals did not explain that much and was a let down and they also were not given enough time. Shaw was stupid, and terribly written so I did not give a damn about her. Actually I rolled my eyes a lot of time when she was in it because a lot of what she said and acted was so annoying. Shaw and the murals are put in Italics since those two are what you seemed to emphasize in your reply but correct me if I am mistaken.

As far as the dead Engineers are concerned they could get that right if they write the them better in the next one instead of giving us some figures that are barely in the movie. I think that it could be saved but they really have to try but the Engineers have a potential.

My point is: to replace the SJ with these is something that will make the prequels even worse if that is what we will get, as if the situation was not crappy enough. Replacing that with the Shaw mystery would have been alright if she would have been well written but she was not. The murals could have worked but they were too vague and were given too little attention. If these are those two that we as an audience shall wonder about after the prequels are done instead of the SJ then the prequels have added another failure as if it was not enough already. Sigh!

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1535 XPMay-30-2018 7:52 AM

Capt Torgo

I think that a problem is that Ridley and Fox never understood the criticism of Prometheus. They thought that the problem was a lack of Xenos, but many seemed to disagree on that. Honestly I think that the new monsters in Prometheus were mainly interesting but the Zombie Fifield was lame. Prometheus's problems were mainly character related but Fox and Ridley seemed to believe otherwise. You mention John Logan, I am not sure how he is as a writer but if there is another prequel even though that is uncertain they must get some writer that knows how to write good characters because both Prometheus and Alien Covenant are missing that. Michelle would probably write better characters than those that wrote AC and Prometheus did. I did not care a lot about the themes since most of the characters were badly written but that has got to do with what I think is needed for a movie to be good.

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1535 XPMay-30-2018 8:16 AM

Michelle J

"Shaw's death after so much investment was the equivalent of Ripley's death en route not Newt or Hicks."

The difference is that Ripley was well-written, Shaw was not. I could feel for Ripley after all the she went through because she was a well done character with traits that I liked (she was smart, fought when she had to, she was strong, and took no ****). We saw Ripley in three movies since 4 does not count and she grew in these three movies. Shaw was just naive, believed in a lot of crap, and was too emotional, for example and was still the same Shaw in the end, there was no development of her or if there was it was too little of it.

I agree that we did not need a lot more Xenos running around in Prometheus but they needed better clues to them.

"I think the problem Big Dave with you not being able to see the potential of Shaw/David…"

But they need to get Shaw right from the start otherwise at least I do not care what happens to her but they did not. I understand what you are trying to say about that potential but that goes for things in real life but movies are another thing. Humans are not perfect in the beginning and they might be interesting to watch how they grow but a movie got to be interesting from the beginning otherwise it will not work. At the same time I agree with IgnorantGuy that the anti-corporate thing got to get clearer and that could have been reduced if we concentrated on Shaw and David. To me the anti-corporate message is almost as important in the original movies as Ripley is. Maybe Prometheus should have had more of that even if they have had that in the original movies since it is an important part. Both the monster and WY were threats to the crew since the Xeno was only in it for survival and WY did not give a crap about people.

ignorantGuy

ChestbursterMember896 XPMay-30-2018 8:34 AM

Thoughts_Dreams For your knowledge people in the Ancient World painted their statues as today modelers paint their miniatures. In fact statues, were very much models. 

BigDave

DeaconMember10181 XPMay-30-2018 8:55 AM

"Shaw and the murals are put in Italics since those two are what you seemed to emphasize in your reply but correct me if I am mistaken."

Indeed what i was referring to was the Mystery... in Alien the Space Jockey Scene was this..

Crashed Alien Ship, Dead Pilot with Hole in his Chest, a Hole in the Floor that looked like it was Melted away, revealing a Egg Chamber Below with Eggs in it...

Alien Revealed from its clues, that it was VERY likely the Space Jockey got infected with his Cargo and Crashed on that Moon, the Acid Hole likely from the Organism that Chest Busted.... But we was NEVER shown any of this.. its only what likely happened.

So the Mystery was   WHO was the Space Jockey, WHY did he have that Cargo, WHEN did he Crash his Ship/Become infected.  And then WHERE/WHEN/HOW did he get those Eggs?

Alien Covenant has set up showing us this, and will likely reveal the entire EVENT by the time they Finish (IF) they Finish the Prequels.

So this will NO LONGER be a Mystery.

But i feel that the LV-223 Outbreak as far as a more detailed explanation to WHY/WHEN/HOW and the connection between the LV-223 Experiments Mural and Star Maps on Earth... i feel all of these may end up NEVER being answered.  So all we will know of these is similar to what we knew about the Space Jockey Event prior to the Prequels....  THUS... the Engineers died out as their experiments got out of control and contaminated that place, and these experiments are related to Organisms similar to the Xenomorph... but we may NEVER get any more detailed answers.

And so with Dr Shaw... while we see she has been experimented on, and died and that she was used to allow David to Create those Xenomorph Eggs...  I dont think we will EVER be shown what exactly happened to her, WHY it happened.

And so basically  i feel the event that leads to the Eggs being on the Derelict and then set up the Derelict to head close to LV-426 before the Pilot is infected is something that will NOW be revealed.

Where was the events as far as showing us in real time/flashback of the LV-223 Outbreak..... and what happened on Planet 4 after the Juggernaught Crash, until the point where Dr Shaw took her last Breath will also likely NEVER be covered.

So we may never find out what process and dilemma Dr Shaw was in after the Crash.... and so the opportunity to explore her Character is GONE.  Likewise Alien Covenant did not delve into the Engineers too, but i think potentially we may find out more about them in a Sequel.

"was still the same Shaw in the end, there was no development of her or if there was it was too little of it."

Certainly and she would have been hopeful to find out WHY the Engineers Created us, WHY they wanted us destroyed, and holding on to her Faith that some other being/power must have created the Engineers and that who ever did would be Benevolent and the Creation of Mankind was a Special Event for the Hierarchy/Power of Creation at the Top of the Creation Ladder which she still believes will be close to the GOD of her Faith!

What happens when she discovers that everything she hoped for, is totally the opposite to what she discovers, their is nothing special or important regarding our Creation, and our Creation in context to those at the Top of the Creation Ladder is NOTHING special to them, we are insignificant or were created for some Sinister Agenda and there is NO all Powerful, Loving GOD who Created Mankind...

HOW/WHAT would Such Revelations do to Dr Shaw, when she discovers her Faith is Baseless....  It would have been interesting to explore her Character ARC after this Event and we could have seen her Character Evolve into something much different.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ali81

NeomorphMember1823 XPJun-04-2018 9:56 PM

the issue with Shaw is the character itself. now I like Noomi Rapace and have enjoyed most films shes been in but I think she got the character wrong aswell as the character not being well written for the role she was meant to play. I don't think anyone really understood what the character was to stand for and include an awful accent by Rapace and it was always gna be hit or miss. its such a wasted and missed opportunity imo. she was a fresh character. her reasoning and purpose to keep going stemmed from her faith in her religious beliefs which as the trilogy went on, meeting her makers etc, couldv opened a lot of doors. saying that, I believe the fate of Shaw we saw I believe was always going to be the intended fate. I fear the idea was for Shaw to be the mother and another character to be the one to come along and fight for justice for what happened to her and I have this horrible, horrible feeling that is that AWFUL, DROLE, BORING Daniels character. I think we have to look at the casting in these 2 films as id say at most 2 characters per film have come out with any positivity so far. Rapace wasn't right for Shaw and Waterston couldn't be more out of depth though I am saying this having seen her for the first time and don't like what I see in this role. it does take good writing but its the actor who brings a character to life and if the actor doesn't understand the character or has been cast in a role their not up to, it will show up in the movie and that's exactly what we got in both films which is why the characters get roasted so much.

saying this the biggest mis-cast for me was Theron. how got would she be as Daniels?

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPJun-05-2018 2:41 AM

@ali81

An interesting perception of Shaw. For me Noomi "got" her. I have met people whose incorruptible faith is a tool they have acquired to make sense of their early life loss and bereavement. She was perfectly "set up" to counterbalance the vainglorious attempt for eternal life of Peter Weyland and through her indomitable will power to survive and find her answers and healing grace the perfect foil to act as an emotional catalyst for David in the next film. 

Daniels was a highly nuanced performance from Katherine in the first act and shows Ridleys ability to put "normal" people into science fiction and make it relatable. However she was asked to be entirely stupid and disinterested in the Engineers in the second act and Sigourney Weaver in the third act which was not her fault but the structure chosen to get dental features in the movie. The one character above all others who was stereotypical and entirely disengaging was the Xenomorph, indeed the ferocity of the critters at the end of the first act made it look ready for an old peoples home.     

ignorantGuy

ChestbursterMember896 XPJun-05-2018 8:51 AM

@Michelle Johnston In all honesty, Rapace did not have the best of accents but for me it was not as awful as Gal Gadot in Wonder Woman or Tom Hardy in Child 44 (i rewatched yesterday and had to change the blu-ray to Hungarian dub to not hear the phoney Russian accent). But this kinds of things can be improved in sequels and with coaching. 

And seeing a video essay recently, I have the strong belief now that the series is not loved enough by it's producers. How can a series work if the only love it's given to the antagonist? But now with the fall of Disney Star Wars, someone will realize that your characters deserve TLC and that's why series like the MCEU and Fast and Furios prosper.

And by this I don't mean I want Ripley, let her be dead or her clone happily "married" to Call.  

BigDave

DeaconMember10181 XPJun-06-2018 8:18 AM

@Michelle

I certainly agree with your opinion regarding Shaw and Daniels..

I think TWO Problems arose.. when we look at Each Character which you pointed out.

With Dr Shaw it was in part a element of her Character that many people may have found to be at odds... HOW can someone on one had have some Naive Faith and yet taken part on all those years of research trying to connect Mankind's Ancient Belief in Gods, and how they are connected to maybe Visitations by a Species from Space.

Holloway fitted this Perfectly, he was trying to find a connection between Ancient Mankinds Faith/Religion and Mythos and would be Gods/Visitors from Space.  Dr Shaw did likewise.. but she kept very close to her Christian Beliefs which here Findings Contradict.  So was she trying to Prove maybe all Religions and Mythos have a Basis from these Visitors and then to try and prove that her Faiths Version of events is more accurate, maybe it was this kind of CONTRADICTION to her Work/Faith that Bugged Viewers and how after Finding out what she knew, her Character was Arrogantly Naive to Stick to her FAITH.. i have seen people like this in Real Life... but these kinds of People like this would not Entertain or Even Research Time into exploring Alternative Explanations for all the Ancient God Mythos and possible connections to Alien Visitors.    For me it was not a massive Problem but maybe it was for others.

Regarding Daniels, her Character did Change about a bit... it appeared as with a lot of things, they tried to FORCE to much into ONE movie, and the Evolution of Daniels from say similar to the first time we saw Ripley.... to becoming the Ripley we see in Alien 3 was Forced to Fast in the Space of One Movie.

Also to NOT Question about what happened and the Engineers was a bit of a Cop-Out too... more so as i FELT this was a subject that would have suited ORAM to have Quizzed David about.   A few more Scenes to discus such things could have HELPED the Movie, and also not FORCING/RUSHING a few Scenes/Plot Devices  (Xenomorph Scenes) but in order to have added those things we would have needed a 3 Hour movie to do it Justice.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPJun-06-2018 8:22 AM

@ignorantGuy

Accents are highly personalised perceptions. I recently got to speak at length with two different Russian woman from Siberia and they both had a deep alto voice and sounded like they came straight out of "From Russia With love" but I liked the sound of the voice and it worked. By contrast on Sunday in Bath Abbey an American family intoned the liturgy with great gusto and it sounded entirely stereotypical, I found myself thinking of Kermit. Noomi sounded like many woman I have met in hospitality from Europe so it never bothered me. Sometimes it is the resonance and the timbre of the voice George Lazenby in his one bond movie sounded great though he never convinced me he knew the iconic snob value signposts as he rattled them off. The recent Star Wars movie was awful in this regard and all the American actors lacked any gravitas contrast them with the "five angels" in "Person of Interest' whether academic, kooky, with held or pithy one liners they all worked even that New York almost do not understand thing, which was prevalent in N.Y.P.D.  

Any ideas going forward I can hear David and Elizabeth in my head as they sounded in Prometheus. With the Engineers the "device" is they sound like they perceive Elizabeth wants to hear them, its part of the story that they know Elizabeth before they meet her so they can project what they think she needs including Petri Dish moments where she can act out both love and hate which not only offers multiple straight lines from Prometheus but also explains what an Engineer (both fallen or not) who creates something is looking for in the way of reciprocation (it explains the hieroglyphs in the Isle of Skye and elsewhere) and what else a creation race can achieve (beyond sub creation driven by hubris). 

  

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPJun-06-2018 8:45 AM

@BigDave

Anyone whom has been around the block a few times knows the debate on creation is not an open and shut case... it remains a debate. However people of faith can appear as if they are ignoring the facts to make their beliefs work.

Shaw/Holloway actually played out this issue beautifully in Act 2. Holloway wanted to meet his makers and prove life was manufactured and when he did not he went off the rails which lead ultimately to his christ like sacrifice, in so doing he polluted the more open minded Elizabeth and yet irony of ironies she used Christ type love of Charlie to live on and find her answers. The believer got to go to Paradise whereas the it could be a Petri Dish guy is Petri Dished himself. 

Even David the agnostic "there is nothing in the desert"..."there is nothing" was impressed by the consequences of her faith and when she heals him before setting off to Paradise that for goodness sake had some impact on his programming ... as it would the Engineers (unless this is a universe where all Engineers and David are hell bent on creating Xenomorphs for Fox !!!).   

Put simply Elizabeth became impressive not because she retained her desire to test her faith but because of how it informed her behaviour and frankly if you leave aside an actual physical resurrection and the ascension thats how Christ works whether you believe he is the son of god or not. 

However I think the audience that went to see Prometheus had a much simpler problem. They were going to see an Alien(ish) movie and as it was the 5th or 7th they expected everyone to set off from Earth knowing it was an Alien movie and take some tough talking marines and a son of a ***** woman but this was an origin story and so innocent people hood winked by a delusional megalomanic aided by a passive aggressive slave took off and then made a lot of mistakes, yes we have talked endlessly about how the 2nd and 3rd act are clunky and uneven and some key narrative is left out in favour of non story like Charlize but the proposition that there were no ALIENS at this point in the story just bad air and storms was a perfectly legitimate place to start. Whereas Ash knew **** was gonna happen and it was up to Ripley to put a stop to his Machiavellian machinations.   

Everyone leaving earth on Prometheus had no idea what they would find but it was tilted towards innocence through naivety and secrecy whereas some of the audience did not buy the story but were waiting for the action horror and assumed the protagonists were as well. Over simplistic and not entirely accurate but were the pilots of the planes and the people that went to work on 9/11 expecting to be part of the biggest terrorist story ever known but every pilot trains for that eventuality now. New Yorkers expected a nice sunny day thats the kind of suspension that is reality that we need to bring to art when we watch it not go "Oh I know what 21 Saudi's are gonna do today".

BigDave

DeaconMember10181 XPJun-06-2018 9:06 AM

Certainly was interesting in how Dr Shaw may have used her Faith as a Coping Mechanism....  even for some None-Believers we can Turn to Faith a little when in need... like Pray or ask God/Christ to help a suffering one pull through a Medical Emergency etc.

I can also see that David may have been intrigued with despite all Dr Shaw had been through, and all she Found out, that should make her Doubt her Faith as False and Give Up....  She used it to Find the Strength to Carry On.

This could have been something to explore in a sequel, and ponder what effect this could have on David, if knowing (in context to the Movie) Dr Shaws God/Faith is a Sham/Not Real.. but her Faith pulls her through... it could have let to exploring a Spiritual Journey side for David.

One the Flip-side.... a Dr Shaw who discovers her Faith is Baseless, our Creation is insignificant and our Would Be Gods DONT Care, and are Evil SOB's....  this could BREAK Dr Shaw and introduce us to a interesting Character ARC... something which i think Noomi had hinted to wanting to explore some while ago.

This could Turn her Intentions to something more Malice... it could allow Davids intentions to try and SAVE Dr Shaws Soul... in that he would witness her Findings on the Truth Change her from that "your very kind of heart" Person...  to someone bent on Revenge.... where we could see David gain some Spiritual Enlightenment from his time with Dr Shaw, and see him TRY and reassure her to have Spiritual Faith and not suc***b to Rage/Revenge... 

There was a lot of ways to have explored a Dynamic Between them and which way their Characters could Changed BUT ALAS!

I think ONE reason for changing the Plan would be how much of a movie can you dedicate to TWO Characters, and make it interesting for the General Public to want to see, never mind getting Alien Fans interested in the sequel... when maybe they would want to know HOW/WHEN/WHY and WHERE the Xenomorph was created.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10181 XPJun-06-2018 9:36 AM

I think the Arc with David on one hand has left them in a Pickle....

It comes across to a degree, that David is displeased with his Creators, sees himself as Superior and to not have to Serve his In-superior Creators.   He sees them as a Race who Do-Not even deserve to be allowed to continue... a Dying Race that he CAN-NOT allow to Restart again...   Also shows he discovers our Creators are also not so important, and Mortals.. and So off David goes to Bombard/Kill them to then Experiment on them to Create his OWN Creation.

That he intends to use on the GALAXY

The Problem with this Set-Up is that it can be a bit LIMITED and contradicts the Set-up for the Next movie.. it goes to show the writers dont really have a good Grasp on things...  the Advent Viral Clearly shows this....

IF.... Davids Agenda is to Harness those 2000 Good Souls to be the Lambs for his Wolves, and thus to Create Thousands of Xenomorphs from them.   Then Unleash them onto a Unsuspecting Mankind..  Then the way he is going about it by INVITING the Company and making them aware is really not a ideal TRAP  it could lead to a Movie where the Company either Arrive with a Military Contingent and then we have to try and Figure out HOW ill prepared they are, considering what David has let on.... OR... see them send more Helpless Colonist as Bait which we would have to ASK why would such a Corporation be so Cruel.  I can kind of see how combine both of those could work, where DAVID must be banking on the Company being Naive and UNDERESTIMATE the Threat they are about to walk into.

The only Character Progression here... is some Escaping Humans on the Covenant, and then Characters on-board what ever Incoming Human Ships Arrive..

But i am DRAWN more to Ridley Scotts comments about how he thought he was ahead of the Curve... his seemingly disappointment about the Xenomorph and more so HOW he said the Next Movie would NOT be about the Xenomorph much... but more about AI

Which means a David using Thousands of Colonist and seeing Thousands of Eggs, and Xenomorphs running around is NOT the kind of movie Ridley Scott has in mind for his sequel...

His comments about "what kind of a World would David Build" are interesting because lets look at this...

*A World of Xenomorphs... so Origae-6 becomes a Giant Xenomorph Hive?   But what is this to do with AI, as this would be very much a movie about XENOMORPHS

*A World of Synthetics Created by David, but Alien Covenant had a lot of Criticism about being too much about Fasbender meets Fasbender would a movie centered around numerous David/Walters appeal?  and IF we see other Synthetics (not Fasbender ones) how do they come into play? 

And so surely a movie just about David building a Army/World of Synthetics or Xenomorphs, is something i dont think we would have seen.

Which brings me to Davids Comment to Daniels... when she asked "what kind of a World Can we Build"  he replied "if we are KIND it will be a kind World"

I am then drawn to the Nature Boy Song.. in the Trailer... and Davids Journey in Prometheus to the Character he appeared in The Crossing

David has seen the errors of the Engineers ways, and Mankinds and the Reasons maybe the Engineers wanted to Destroy us....  He would have seen the limited Purpose to Serve Mankind, which he Questions because he is SUPERIOR... but also seen the intended Purpose for Mankind to SERVE their Creators before they became Unruly...

Looking at the Covenant Name and Mission... the Arc of the Covenant looking Insignia,  which stems from Mosses taking Gods Chosen to a NEW Home to Start Again... under the NEW Rules of GOD, that if Followed would allow Mankind to Live at Peace and Love with GOD.. but where if they are NOT Followed could lead to Punishment like the time of the GREAT Deluge  which then Brings me from the ARK of the Covenant... to the ARK of Noah... which the Covenant Ship/Mission is Essentially doing.

So i pondered could this be something to be Explored.... and is in Basis of what i was continuing with ALIEN:ASCENSION but then  would seeing a Movie where David sets up a Colony, and is seen as a Wise/Savior Figure for those Colonist after the Covenants attempted Sabotage (Davids excuse).... so he begins to set up a NEW World a NEW Eden as he intended with Dr Shaw..... where David would be kind of a King David, but also a Noah to those Colonist...

But David would also still have his Xenomorph... where it would be kept/used in his version of Hades as a Punishment for those who Stray from this NEW Eden and NEW Way of Life.... Going back to the Old Ways as the Engineers had attempted on Planet 4... rather than the Corruption that Mankind had become since after the Roman Empire.

But its a Question of if this kind of Plot is something Fans would be interesting in..... and so that is the PICKLE Ridley Scott is in as far as WHAT does he do NEXT?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

ChestbursterMember896 XPJun-06-2018 10:12 AM

Michelle Johnston Sorry to ask but what do you make of Holloway's ring? Is that a thing given to the faithful? And you know what stroke me recently rewatching Prom? That in the mirror scene after the C-sec, Shaw looks very much like Christ in the Passion context, but maybe it means nothing and I play into it.

And you know what quote there is David's favorite movie? "Lawrence, only two kinds of creature get fun in the desert: Bedouins and gods, and you're neither. " and the other quote in entirety is "No Arab loves the desert. We love water and green trees. There is nothing in the desert and no man needs nothing.". I don't know if it is only convenience on Sir Scott's part or David does not understand art again, but neither quote for me imply that there is no God, only that you must know where to look for it.

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPJun-06-2018 11:23 AM

@BigDave

I am not going to say to much because I do not want to box myself in. However my thinking is based on the Lindelof/Scott/Scalia vision of the planetoid on which the Prometheus land which it is the result of Paradise Lost. In other words the Promethean myth is alive and well and the Engineers on the planetoid  stole the fire and were wiped out by an "Ebola like" break out by creating the Alien Mutagen. In my vision Shaw is tested to the limit this brings me on to

ignorantGuy

Precisely if you let Shaw continue then she will find her answers. You may not in the end like my vision but it works exactly how those quotes apply. You have to look in the right place. David had been alone for a long time when the proximity warning went off in Prometheus. He had time to consider many things and scan the planetoid. Given the indications were to the solar system not the planetoid even LV 426 in the conception went with was knowledge David knew about. We know in the real world like many other things the early scripts took them to LV 426 but that is to miss the point. There are two matters which the Prometheus might have come across one is an airfield with five hangers and the other is a lone Juggernaut set down. Once you tell a story about the Beacon being activated then these locations represent the desert what Shaw and David need to come to for their answers are water and trees.   

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember759 XPJun-06-2018 11:23 AM

@BigDave

I am not going to say to much because I do not want to box myself in. However my thinking is based on the Lindelof/Scott/Scalia vision of the planetoid on which the Prometheus land which it is the result of Paradise Lost. In other words the Promethean myth is alive and well and the Engineers on the planetoid  stole the fire and were wiped out by an "Ebola like" break out by creating the Alien Mutagen. In my vision Shaw is tested to the limit this brings me on to

ignorantGuy

Precisely if you let Shaw continue then she will find her answers. You may not in the end like my vision but it works exactly how those quotes apply. You have to look in the right place. David had been alone for a long time when the proximity warning went off in Prometheus. He had time to consider many things and scan the planetoid. Given the indications were to the solar system not the planetoid even LV 426 in the conception went with was knowledge David knew about. We know in the real world like many other things the early scripts took them to LV 426 but that is to miss the point. There are two matters which the Prometheus might have come across one is an airfield with five hangers and the other is a lone Juggernaut set down. Once you tell a story about the Beacon being activated then these locations represent the desert what Shaw and David need to come to for their answers are water and trees.   

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Alien: Covenant is a sequel to 2012's Prometheus as well as a prequel to 1979's ALIEN. Alien fans looking to know more about Alien: Covenant should check back often. Alien-Covenant.com is an information resource for film enthusiasts looking to learn more about the upcoming blockbuster Alien: Covenant. Providing the latest official and accurate information on Alien: Covenant, this website contains links to every set video, viral video, commercial, trailer, poster, movie still and screenshot available. This site is an extension of the Alien & Predator Fandom on Scified - a central hub for fans of Alien and Prometheus looking to stay up-to-date on the latest news. Images used are property of their respective owners. Alien: Covenant, Prometheus and its associated names, logos and images are property of 20th Century Fox and are in no way owned by Scified and its related entities. This is a fan-created website for the purpose of informing and exciting fans for Alien: Covenant's release. If you have any questions about this site, its content or the Scified Network in general, feel free to contact Scified directly.

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